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justnum
10-23-2010, 12:26 PM
Theoretical Pool Tournament

64 Players

10 Legends
10 Rising Stars
24 Nobody's
20 Professionals

Tournament Arena Capacity 1000 people
Legend attracts 100 people
Rising Star attracts 50 people
Professionals attract 5 people.

Rent for Arena: $2500 daily
Popcorn: $1
Soda: $1
Alcohol: $5
Tickets: $10

If 10 legends play on the same day income from tickets is $10,000. If those fans are hungry or thirsty the minimum income is $1 the maximum income is $28 (four of each item). Total income from food and drink is $28,000.
For that day when all legends play income is $38,000, deduct arena fees and the remaining is $35,500. How many days should they play?

Big tournaments can make the most money from food, drink and tickets. I would post code so that you can adjust the numbers. I don't want to argue the different values, use a spreadsheet program.

Jason Robichaud
10-23-2010, 12:37 PM
?????????????????

Tom In Cincy
10-23-2010, 12:48 PM
Theoretical questions;

What venue do you know of that lets you take money from their food and drink sales?

How much is it going to cost you to pay for the legends to appear?

How much is the tournament staff going to cost?

Promotion and advertising isn't cheap either, how much will that cost.

How many tables will you need? and how much do you think it will cost to have them delivered, set up and made playable?

Who is going to clean those tables and balls in between rounds?

BTW, I don't need a spread sheet macro to figure this out.


What about the Streaming? that costs also.

The above costs for the 6 day tournament can run as low as $15,000 and has high as $25,000 depending on the quality of your production.

what if the Legends don't show up?

Neil
10-23-2010, 01:07 PM
..............

justnum
10-23-2010, 01:40 PM
I don't plan on running a tournament. I am trying to piece together an assessment of what tournament directors manage. Mostly it is the door fees and spectators that like to drink. Everything else is just a means to get them there and sell to them.

If your going to run a business of a pool tournament all it is is a rally to sell drinks and popcorn. The tricks that get people there can range from girl players to beefy dudes or old time all americans, the tricks don't mean as much as the sales for the day.

My question is how much should tournament directors keep for next years expenses and their costs versus giving it out to the playing field. I am talking percentage of door fees. The players get fans through the door. They should be entitled to a percentage of door income. The players get fans hungry by providing great matches. Should they get a piece of the food income?

How much of non player entry fees is used to ensure proper health of players via medical diagnosis? And what about players with families and children? Players sacrifice a lot attending those tournaments.

I am not against rich people wanting to watch great pool players. I am interested in how much tournament directors share with their players.

My decomposition consists of rich people that like watching pool, tournament directors that turn profits from gathering crowds and players that gamble. Of the three the TD touches the money the most. Should the three groups know how the money changes hands or how much gets transferred?

From the start the player payouts are determined. If the tournament generates more than enough money to break even are the players entitled to a piece of that action?

justnum
10-23-2010, 03:51 PM
My first question would be- where are you going to get 1,000 spectators from???

Consider the income is the same from 1000 spectators if 500 spectators are charged two fees for day and night sessions.

ridinda9
10-23-2010, 03:52 PM
My first question would be- where are you going to get 1,000 spectators from???
and that's the biggest question plaguing professional pool today .....

I don't plan on running a tournament. I am trying to piece together an assessment of what tournament directors manage. Mostly it is the door fees and spectators that like to drink. Everything else is just a means to get them there and sell to them.

If your going to run a business of a pool tournament all it is is a rally to sell drinks and popcorn. The tricks that get people there can range from girl players to beefy dudes or old time all americans, the tricks don't mean as much as the sales for the day.

My question is how much should tournament directors keep for next years expenses and their costs versus giving it out to the playing field. I am talking percentage of door fees. The players get fans through the door. They should be entitled to a percentage of door income. The players get fans hungry by providing great matches. Should they get a piece of the food income?

How much of non player entry fees is used to ensure proper health of players via medical diagnosis? And what about players with families and children? Players sacrifice a lot attending those tournaments.

I am not against rich people wanting to watch great pool players. I am interested in how much tournament directors share with their players.

My decomposition consists of rich people that like watching pool, tournament directors that turn profits from gathering crowds and players that gamble. Of the three the TD touches the money the most. Should the three groups know how the money changes hands or how much gets transferred?

From the start the player payouts are determined. If the tournament generates more than enough money to break even are the players entitled to a piece of that action?
wow , where to start ? How about Venue ?
Most of the larger tournaments I've been in are held at existing pool halls - excuse me , I meant Family Entertainment Centers , and the profit from the concessions stay with the host location , not the Tournament (or tour) director.
The entry fees are generally repaid to the players PLUS some amount "added" , such as $1500 added or $2500 added . Therefore , no percentage is held back for anything , including 'medical diagnosis' . There is no health plan in pool .
As far as the TD's profit center , there is
1) door revenues
2) vendor percentages or fees (cues , cases , repair , paraphrenalia , etc)
3)Corporate sponsorship (McDermott , Olhausen , Ozone , Diamond , Simonis . . . . )
sadly , as yet , there is no huge corporate "angel" such as Coca-Cola , Powerade , Sears , etc
It's not a rally to sell drinks & popcorn
You are correct - from the start , the player payouts are determined - and those are the stakes that they agreed to play for . It doesn't matter if the door income is $200 or $20,000 - they agreed to payback+$2500/places paid .
I've watched several very competitive tours fail in the last few years - some that I was doing rather well in !
Why did they fail ? Because the spectator end of pool doesn't generate the kind of interest or income that you're dreaming it does .

That's why Spike hasn't replaced Monday Night RAW with Monday Night Runout ! yet:(

justnum
10-23-2010, 03:55 PM
Theoretical questions;

What venue do you know of that lets you take money from their food and drink sales?
The ones where you can invite private catering.

How much is it going to cost you to pay for the legends to appear?
Good point, but if the players are loyal and know the tournament director it could be as cheap as room and flight.

How much is the tournament staff going to cost?
$8k at the low and $15K at the high

Promotion and advertising isn't cheap either, how much will that cost.
A few ads in different publications less than a few thousand.

How many tables will you need? and how much do you think it will cost to have them delivered, set up and made playable?
High Cost over 20K

Who is going to clean those tables and balls in between rounds?
Players mostly.

What about the Streaming? that costs also.
A young guy with a computer and internet charges could be as low as $1K.

The above costs for the 6 day tournament can run as low as $15,000 and has high as $25,000 depending on the quality of your production.

what if the Legends don't show up?
That is a primary concern of a tournament director.

justnum
10-23-2010, 03:57 PM
and that's the biggest question plaguing professional pool today .....


wow , where to start ? How about Venue ?
Most of the larger tournaments I've been in are held at existing pool halls - excuse me , I meant Family Entertainment Centers , and the profit from the concessions stay with the host location , not the Tournament (or tour) director.
The entry fees are generally repaid to the players PLUS some amount "added" , such as $1500 added or $2500 added . Therefore , no percentage is held back for anything , including 'medical diagnosis' . There is no health plan in pool .
As far as the TD's profit center , there is
1) door revenues
2) vendor percentages or fees (cues , cases , repair , paraphrenalia , etc)
3)Corporate sponsorship (McDermott , Olhausen , Ozone , Diamond , Simonis . . . . )
sadly , as yet , there is no huge corporate "angel" such as Coca-Cola , Powerade , Sears , etc
It's not a rally to sell drinks & popcorn
You are correct - from the start , the player payouts are determined - and those are the stakes that they agreed to play for . It doesn't matter if the door income is $200 or $20,000 - they agreed to payback+$2500/places paid .
I've watched several very competitive tours fail in the last few years - some that I was doing rather well in !
Why did they fail ? Because the spectator end of pool doesn't generate the kind of interest or income that you're dreaming it does .

That's why Spike hasn't replaced Monday Night RAW with Monday Night Runout ! yet:(

An alternative answer to why they fail is because the tournament director does not re-invest profits into maintenance and expansion. Starbucks overdid the expansion. And Netscape underdid expansion. Somewhere in the middle would be safe ground. That means a lot of preparing expenses ahead of time for players or decreasing costs of arena or increasing people in attendance.

The fans do play a role but that is cutting into the expenses of the tournament director. The predetermined payouts for the players does not suffer that risk, unless a director blows all the cash on hookers and drugs, have they had events in Vegas before?

Kuroky
10-23-2010, 04:11 PM
My first question would be- where are you going to get 1,000 spectators from???

Go to Philippines. Oh wait, they dun have money

allen_jr
10-23-2010, 04:30 PM
You raise some good points, but it is very far from as easy as it sounds...


Theoretical questions;

What venue do you know of that lets you take money from their food and drink sales?
The ones where you can invite private catering.

Very few places will let you make the money from concessions, it's their business, they want the money

How much is it going to cost you to pay for the legends to appear?
Good point, but if the players are loyal and know the tournament director it could be as cheap as room and flight.

You want to pay the legends to show up? Where is this money going to come from? Most players are lucky just to have good enough events to play in where 3/4th place might cover their expenses. getting to 3/4th is not easy.


How much is the tournament staff going to cost?
$8k at the low and $15K at the high

Again, where does this money come from? Promoters pocket, whether 1000 tickets are sold or 50.



Promotion and advertising isn't cheap either, how much will that cost.
A few ads in different publications less than a few thousand.
ONE full page ad in major billiards publication, sure.


How many tables will you need? and how much do you think it will cost to have them delivered, set up and made playable?
High Cost over 20K

Don't forget renting the venue and setting up all that seating for your 1000 spectators. You're going to also need some good lighting, which typically involves some extra scaffolding, etc... Not many players are set up to host pool tournaments.


Who is going to clean those tables and balls in between rounds?
Players mostly.
Mostly not.

What about the Streaming? that costs also.
A young guy with a computer and internet charges could be as low as $1K.
Rely on the talented people already doing this in the industry. They know how it's done, they're good at it, and they bring their own "following" of fans. Cutting out people who rely on this work for income so you can hire some "young guy with a computer" is part of the problem in this, or any other industry. To get good work and reliable service, you have to pay for it. People deserve to make money when they are good at what they do.

The above costs for the 6 day tournament can run as low as $15,000 and has high as $25,000 depending on the quality of your production.

what if the Legends don't show up?
That is a primary concern of a tournament director.
Yes it is, and what's your entry fee? Doubtful that 24 unknowns are going to post any decent amount to play when 10 legends and 10 rising stars are already in. You need a lot of top players to draw 1000 spectators. Getting players to show up is not as easy as one would think.Bigger prize money all the way down the line (not just one big bubble for first place) would fix this problem, and getting that money is the problem.



Also, don't forget your "added money" to the prizepool. Many top players will not show up unless at least 20K is added... Of course you could just promise that a ton of money will be added, and then just not pay it out citing that you just never made it as planned, that seems to be a trend.

Without adding the money, which gets the top players, you will have nowhere close to 1000 spectators.

Tournament directors do not make huge profits, especially not enough for people to speculate whether they should start "sharing" how much they make after they break even. It's a business, like any other. There are many hard working devoted people out there doing it just because they love the game and want to see it succeed. And hopefully make a living along the way. A successful director should earn money, he or she is also helping bring money and attention to the players and the game, their profit is their paycheck for their work. It's a win-win situation actually, the players can play for more money and the promoter can enjoy financial success and stability doing something they love.

If directing/promoting big pool tournaments was extremely lucrative and simple, you would have a lot more big pool tournaments, believe that.

Unlike a traditional job, if the event does not bring the spectators, or there is a snowstorm, or another event gets scheduled at the same time (pulling players away), or any other various factors occur, the promoter loses out. Not the players - well, if the promoter doesn't pay them, then yeah, them too. The fans might miss out on a good event, but they don't share the financial,mental, and physical drain either.

Hope this helps shed some light on some of your questions. In theory it sounds simple enough, but it is a lot harder than selling soda and popcorn to 1000 thirsty fans. :)

justnum
10-23-2010, 04:38 PM
Like all startups the problem of capital must be solved. Who has capital and where do you get it? Aside from that the details fill themselves in.

It is as simple as buying a bottle of soda for $1. And selling cups of soda for $0.25. One bottle is enough to fill twenty cups. Where do you get the $1 and who do you sell to?

Oddly enough these are the same arguments that apply to taxes. A bunch of people spend a certain amount of money on advertising to get elected. Then they have to decide who to spend the tax money on. Sometimes its for sweetheart contracts other times its for vacations on private yachts. How much maintenance does a school really need?

allen_jr
10-23-2010, 05:07 PM
Like all startups the problem of capital must be solved. Who has capital and where do you get it? Aside from that the details fill themselves in.

It is as simple as buying a bottle of soda for $1. And selling cups of soda for $0.25. One bottle is enough to fill twenty cups. Where do you get the $1 and who do you sell to?

Oddly enough these are the same arguments that apply to taxes. A bunch of people spend a certain amount of money on advertising to get elected. Then they have to decide who to spend the tax money on. Sometimes its for sweetheart contracts other times its for vacations on private yachts. How much maintenance does a school really need?


My belief is internally. That is, we need events with bigger entry fees, so the payouts can be higher, and the top players will make more money in the long run... Problem is, no one wants to put up big money when they see who else already has. Trust me, there are top players who will shy away from posting a big entry fee once they see other top players in the field.

If you did have, say a $5000 entry fee, with 32 players. That gives you a $160,000 prize pool. If you just paid 16 players (win one match, you're paid) that would be an average of $10,000 each. Thats a $5000 profit for a 1-day event. Of course, no one wants to do that, so suppose:

You pay 9-16 $6500 each, a $1500 profit for winning 1 match. That leaves you $108,000 for the last 8 players.

Say 5-8 gets $8000 each, which is a $3000 profit for winning 2 matches. That leaves you $76,000 for the last 4 players.

Just to be simple, lets just say the last 4 get this:
4th: $10,000
3rd: $15,000
2nd: $20,000
1st: $31,000

Keep in mind, this is a very simplified structure, single elimination.. Whole thing could be done in 2 days. None of the above profits are bad for 2 days of playing pool.

Yes, players risk more, but the amount they can win is substantially more as well. How many 32 man events pay $10,000 for 4th place, or in this case winning 3 matches? Over time, more money would be in players pockets, and they could move together aggregately increasing their winnings.

What some people don't realize is that to make more, they're going to have to risk more, at least at first. poker has proven that this model works. Poker is only exciting to watch because of the huge money, which pool does not have. If poker tournaments were being played for $10,000 prize pools, no one would care to watch. Anything is fun to watch for big money. Poker players line up out the door to drop $2000 for an entry fee, and there is zero added money, in fact the house charges a 10-15% commission. Of course, difference is, anyone with half a brain can win a poker tournament. Pool is vastly more difficult.

Anyway, just some of my thoughts...

justnum
10-23-2010, 05:20 PM
Player expenses are different some have families others don't. Sometimes younger players need money more than older players.

There should be a players only tournament. One that doesn't involve any associated fame. But a black tournament invite only. The goal of the tournament would be to identify player's strengths and weakness, essentially a skills tournament.

Aside from the risk of money I want to see players taking risks at the table.

No trash talking, no sharking only pool players and pool shooting.

justnum
10-23-2010, 05:38 PM
Tournament Format:

Cut or straight in shot 1 point
One rail Bank shot 2 points
One rail Kick shot 2 points
One ball kiss shot 2 points
Jump shot 2 points
Use of multiple rails for a bank or kick, or multiple balls for a kiss or combination of jump with bank, kick or kiss 5 points .

Point scoring system within players matchup, matchups are negotiated for choice of game.

Players score a predetermined amount of points based on entry skill test.

joelpope
10-24-2010, 06:47 AM
Theoretical Pool Tournament

64 Players

10 Legends
10 Rising Stars
24 Nobody's
20 Professionals

Tournament Arena Capacity 1000 people
Legend attracts 100 people
Rising Star attracts 50 people
Professionals attract 5 people.

Rent for Arena: $2500 daily
Popcorn: $1
Soda: $1
Alcohol: $5
Tickets: $10

If 10 legends play on the same day income from tickets is $10,000. If those fans are hungry or thirsty the minimum income is $1 the maximum income is $28 (four of each item). Total income from food and drink is $28,000.
For that day when all legends play income is $38,000, deduct arena fees and the remaining is $35,500. How many days should they play?

Big tournaments can make the most money from food, drink and tickets. I would post code so that you can adjust the numbers. I don't want to argue the different values, use a spreadsheet program.
good luck getting 1,000 people to come see a pool tournament in the US. I have never seen that kind of tour out for a field of 64 tournament

Lucky if you get 100, that's the problem

ridinda9
10-24-2010, 07:07 AM
Oddly enough these are the same arguments that apply to taxes. A bunch of people spend a certain amount of money on advertising to get elected. Then they have to decide who to spend the tax money on.
No , they actually decided who to spend the money on before they got elected . Why else would the president spend $50 Million to get a job that pays $400,000 year for four years ($1,600,000 net) ? Is the dental plan that good ?


OOOooops , wrong forum . . . .

sfleinen
10-24-2010, 07:13 AM
Theoretical Pool Tournament

64 Players

10 Legends
10 Rising Stars
24 Nobody's
20 Professionals

Tournament Arena Capacity 1000 people
Legend attracts 100 people
Rising Star attracts 50 people
Professionals attract 5 people.

Rent for Arena: $2500 daily
Popcorn: $1
Soda: $1
Alcohol: $5
Tickets: $10

If 10 legends play on the same day income from tickets is $10,000. If those fans are hungry or thirsty the minimum income is $1 the maximum income is $28 (four of each item). Total income from food and drink is $28,000.
For that day when all legends play income is $38,000, deduct arena fees and the remaining is $35,500. How many days should they play?

Big tournaments can make the most money from food, drink and tickets. I would post code so that you can adjust the numbers. I don't want to argue the different values, use a spreadsheet program.

justnum:

This "theoretical tournament" you speak of; it wouldn't perchance be a basis for a forthcoming reply to JCIN's experience-laden reply to you (http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=2672643#post2672643) in another thread, where he asks you to run your numbers again, would it?

-Sean

chefjeff
10-24-2010, 07:44 AM
My first question would be- where are you going to get 1,000 spectators from???

Marketing is the highest value in any business enterprise.

Answer that question first and all else can fall into place. Without that answer, nothing else happens really.

Jeff Livingston

justnum
10-24-2010, 08:37 PM
Marketing is the highest value in any business enterprise.

Answer that question first and all else can fall into place. Without that answer, nothing else happens really.

Jeff Livingston

Marketing is important if you are appealing to a group of people who don't know anything. Billiard players have a history and they are reminded of it constantly.

BRKNRUN
10-24-2010, 08:45 PM
Theoretical Pool Tournament

64 Players

10 Legends
10 Rising Stars
24 Nobody's
20 Professionals

Tournament Arena Capacity 1000 people
Legend attracts 100 people
Rising Star attracts 50 people
Professionals attract 5 people.

Rent for Arena: $2500 daily
Popcorn: $1
Soda: $1
Alcohol: $5
Tickets: $10

If 10 legends play on the same day income from tickets is $10,000. If those fans are hungry or thirsty the minimum income is $1 the maximum income is $28 (four of each item). Total income from food and drink is $28,000.
For that day when all legends play income is $38,000, deduct arena fees and the remaining is $35,500. How many days should they play?

Big tournaments can make the most money from food, drink and tickets. I would post code so that you can adjust the numbers. I don't want to argue the different values, use a spreadsheet program.



If you are doing this for a research project...Why not just try and contact Barry Berhman? The US open probably had some entrants that match your criteria....

The other costs may not match up with what you list...but that is part of the adjustments you will make from the research.

justnum
10-24-2010, 08:53 PM
justnum:

This "theoretical tournament" you speak of; it wouldn't perchance be a basis for a forthcoming reply to JCIN's experience-laden reply to you (http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=2672643#post2672643) in another thread, where he asks you to run your numbers again, would it?

-Sean

The numbers involved at the US open are significantly larger. They might require someone with a mastery of multiplication and addition. I am just thinking in small terms. And I am thinking about the style of play I would want to face in a tournament..

allen_jr
10-24-2010, 09:10 PM
Marketing is important if you are appealing to a group of people who don't know anything. Billiard players have a history and they are reminded of it constantly.

Is this a serious statement?
Why do you think Coca Cola spends millions and millions on marketing every year? Because consumers don't know anything about Coca Cola?

Cory in DC
10-24-2010, 09:24 PM
If you did have, say a $5000 entry fee, with 32 players. That gives you a $160,000 prize pool. If you just paid 16 players (win one match, you're paid) that would be an average of $10,000 each. Thats a $5000 profit for a 1-day event. Of course, no one wants to do that, so suppose:

You're right that no one wants to pay it. That's why this would make more sense if it were based on regional tournaments or something like that where first place wins a trip to the show. Just like feeder tournaments in Poker. You might even need two layers -- $50 tournaments or league seasons to get into the $500 tournament, which can get you into the $5,000 tournament.

The problem is, that would take a lot of organization, which isn't even close to existing. And credibility of the organization running the ultimate tournament, or else people would fear that the qualifier buy-ins would just disappear (as in the IPT qualifiers).

Cory

justnum
10-24-2010, 09:36 PM
Is this a serious statement?
Why do you think Coca Cola spends millions and millions on marketing every year? Because consumers don't know anything about Coca Cola?

Dental value of coca cola is low.

Nutritional value of coca cola is dominantly sugar.

Do you know who coca cola employs? Do you know how much they pay in wages in third world nations? Do you know anything about how it is made? Sure coca cola is not a chemical processing plant but what by-products does that company create and how does it ensure they are not polluting the environment they operate in?



You know what they pay you to know and that is coca cola is worth repeating in purchase and taste.

allen_jr
10-24-2010, 10:18 PM
Dental value of coca cola is low.

Nutritional value of coca cola is dominantly sugar.

Do you know who coca cola employs? Do you know how much they pay in wages in third world nations? Do you know anything about how it is made? Sure coca cola is not a chemical processing plant but what by-products does that company create and how does it ensure they are not polluting the environment they operate in?



You know what they pay you to know and that is coca cola is worth repeating in purchase and taste.


You're missing the point, and changing the topic. By your logic why do you think Tylenol spends millions on marketing? Or Dove soap, or Tide detergent?

I suggest maybe you do some general research on what marketing is and does. You have some interesting ideas on tournament formats, but your logic and thoughts behind promoting events is a bit off.

Again, if promoting tournaments was so easy and lucrative, as you suggested it was, lots more people would do it and we would have lots of millionaire poolplayers like lots of other professional athletes. There's a reason we don't, and it has nothing to do with promoters keeping soda and popcorn profits...

justnum
10-25-2010, 04:34 AM
You're missing the point, and changing the topic. By your logic why do you think Tylenol spends millions on marketing? Or Dove soap, or Tide detergent?

I suggest maybe you do some general research on what marketing is and does. You have some interesting ideas on tournament formats, but your logic and thoughts behind promoting events is a bit off.

Again, if promoting tournaments was so easy and lucrative, as you suggested it was, lots more people would do it and we would have lots of millionaire poolplayers like lots of other professional athletes. There's a reason we don't, and it has nothing to do with promoters keeping soda and popcorn profits...

The IPT ran several ads at several tournaments, billiard magazines and novelty sports cable networks. Those investments got players but not so many fans. The billiard community is smarter than advertising.

It doesn't take much to impress a high schooler, all you need is muscles, skin or luxury, that's why there are multimillionaire athletes because they cater to the young market. The billiards community is not a young market, it is maybe the most experienced market in the pie.

chefjeff
10-25-2010, 06:00 AM
Marketing is important if you are appealing to a group of people who don't know anything. Billiard players have a history and they are reminded of it constantly.

I don't understand your point. I was pointing out that until there are more, consistent fans for pool, the money won't be there to make a living at it. Marketing is the getting of fans...or customers, if you wish.

Jeff Livingston

Roger Long
10-25-2010, 08:07 AM
justnum:

Please let me know the date and time of your tournament. I don't want to miss it on the live stream. ;)

Roger

allen_jr
10-25-2010, 08:34 AM
The IPT ran several ads at several tournaments, billiard magazines and novelty sports cable networks. Those investments got players but not so many fans. The billiard community is smarter than advertising.

It doesn't take much to impress a high schooler, all you need is muscles, skin or luxury, that's why there are multimillionaire athletes because they cater to the young market. The billiards community is not a young market, it is maybe the most experienced market in the pie.

We need marketing to attract fans from within and, more importantly, outside of the current "billiard community"...

I'm pretty sure that there are lots of NFL and NBA fans that are not highschoolers, and millions of dollars are spent marketing to these people. Also, there are lots of consumers that are not highschoolers that Coca Cola, Tylenol, Dove, Proctor & Gamble, BMW, Ford, etc.. market to. Yes, people in the market are smart, but marketing and advertising does work, and millions is spent on it because it works.

There is a lot that needs to be done, it is not as simple as you think. I do not know all the answers either, so I am not trying to pretend like I do.

What I do know is that someone with lots of money and knowledge needs to do a lot of work to help make pool cross over into mainstream attention. I wish the answer was as simple as you seem to think it is.

stljohnny
10-25-2010, 09:18 AM
My first question would be- where are you going to get 1,000 spectators from???

I was going to ask the same thing... considering the numbers that i heard were in attendance for the US OPEN were under 500 people. If the open, arguably the biggest tournament in the nation, can't even get a thousand people...

allen_jr
10-25-2010, 09:50 AM
I was going to ask the same thing... considering the numbers that i heard were in attendance for the US OPEN were under 500 people. If the open, arguably the biggest tournament in the nation, can't even get a thousand people...

Very true... I believe the future involves live streaming at a nominal cost to generate more money for events, as well as hosting qualifiers to funnel players into larger events so he collective prize pool can be bigger...

For example... Host a 32 player event, $50 entry fee... this is a $1600 prize pool. The winner could win a $1000 entry into a bigger event, and the other $600 could be divided however you see fit. The main point is to funnel bigger entry fees into a bigger event. Suppose the "bigger event" is a $1000 entry fee, 32 player event. Players could buy-in directly for $1000, or win a local qualifier at their pool room for $50.

Of course, adjust the numbers as you see fit. Make the qualifier $100 and the "bigger event" a $2000 buy in event. So now, you start having tournaments with bigger prize pools without "added money". Yes, having $25,000 added events is great, but the problem is that the money has to come from somewhere, and it's not easy to get. People seem to think promoters can get $25,000 to add real easy, but it's not. The money in the pot has to come from within. Once we have bigger prize pools, we get more attention, once we get more attention, we attract bigger mainstream sponsors... the goal is down the line, but we need to take steps now on our own to get there.

Imagine having a tourney with 32 players, $64,000 in the pot, and every player "won" their way in for $100...

Marie's husband
10-25-2010, 10:15 AM
Very true... I believe the future involves live streaming at a nominal cost to generate more money for events, as well as hosting qualifiers to funnel players into larger events so he collective prize pool can be bigger...

For example... Host a 32 player event, $50 entry fee... this is a $1600 prize pool. The winner could win a $1000 entry into a bigger event, and the other $600 could be divided however you see fit. The main point is to funnel bigger entry fees into a bigger event. Suppose the "bigger event" is a $1000 entry fee, 32 player event. Players could buy-in directly for $1000, or win a local qualifier at their pool room for $50.

Of course, adjust the numbers as you see fit. Make the qualifier $100 and the "bigger event" a $2000 buy in event. So now, you start having tournaments with bigger prize pools without "added money". Yes, having $25,000 added events is great, but the problem is that the money has to come from somewhere, and it's not easy to get. People seem to think promoters can get $25,000 to add real easy, but it's not. The money in the pot has to come from within. Once we have bigger prize pools, we get more attention, once we get more attention, we attract bigger mainstream sponsors... the goal is down the line, but we need to take steps now on our own to get there.

Imagine having a tourney with 32 players, $64,000 in the pot, and every player "won" their way in for $100...


I do have a question and it has to do with entry fee's. What is the highest entry fee tournament within the United States?

I know the US open has numerous local events within the Virginia area that you can win your entry through, but never heard of any promotions like that outside of Virgina.

Also, I remember the IPT used to hold qualifiers and I remember a lot of those didnt even come close to getting 16 players showing up for them but I think the qualifiers were pretty spendy for the basic player and if they would have used your $50 entry fee and tried to fill a full field, then it may have worked better..


Oh, here is something interesting, I watched a tourney this weekend on a stream. Had 118 players, $40 entry fee, prize pool with Calcuttas was over $40k. Now I dont know if Calcuttas are legal or not within all states but in a lot of states they are. On the Stream there was always a crowd around the streaming tables and it seemed like a lot of people hung out there to watch because they had there money invested within the tourney. So why can't we set up a legal auction for players within a pro event? Has it ever been done legaly? Has it ever been promoted using the calcutta as a promotion tool?

bfdlad
10-25-2010, 10:17 AM
Not sure if anyone has heard of the Magnificent 7 that I have been working on but to the OP, I have done alot of research and have an agreement with 7 Legends. I know the Magnificent 7 event is different but I also know what it costs to make everyone happy. I appreciate you trying to do something like this but your numbers are way off.
Unless you are a millionaire and just want to do this and arewilling to go in the hole on it you should relook at what you are doing. I am not being negative just saying.

Dartman
10-25-2010, 11:02 AM
Is this a serious statement?
Why do you think Coca Cola spends millions and millions on marketing every year? Because consumers don't know anything about Coca Cola?
For the same reason that Budweiser spends megabucks but I'd be interested in your answer to your question.


Of course, difference is, anyone with half a brain can win a poker tournament. Pool is vastly more difficult.
Is this a serious statement?
Have you ever made a final poker table in a 3 day event playing 12-14 hrs a day with 800+ players?
More difficult then you think.

justnum
10-25-2010, 11:22 AM
We need marketing to attract fans from within and, more importantly, outside of the current "billiard community"...

I'm pretty sure that there are lots of NFL and NBA fans that are not highschoolers, and millions of dollars are spent marketing to these people. Also, there are lots of consumers that are not highschoolers that Coca Cola, Tylenol, Dove, Proctor & Gamble, BMW, Ford, etc.. market to. Yes, people in the market are smart, but marketing and advertising does work, and millions is spent on it because it works.

There is a lot that needs to be done, it is not as simple as you think. I do not know all the answers either, so I am not trying to pretend like I do.

What I do know is that someone with lots of money and knowledge needs to do a lot of work to help make pool cross over into mainstream attention. I wish the answer was as simple as you seem to think it is.

If you are serious about making an effort your ideas are a good start. A thorough proposal or identification of problem and possible solutions need to be developed more. Please continue to do research until you have a conclusion for your idea with evidence to support it.

Tom In Cincy
10-25-2010, 12:05 PM
justnum,

I'm guessing here, but in my opinion you've probably never been to a pool tournament with over 32 players.

Have you ever been to the Derby City Classic? 1200 players for 9 days. Can you even imagine having a 9 day event with 1200 players? Spectators average around 250-300 per day.

I'm also guessing you probably don't know who Allen_Jr is.

You seem to be guessing a lot about the details of promoting a tournament.

First off, the Promoter hires the Tournament Director to run the tournament. The tournament is the format that the players follow to determine the champion.

Everything else is handled by the Promoter; getting the sponsors for added money, the venue, the tables, advertising and staff.





If you are serious about making an effort your ideas are a good start. A thorough proposal or identification of problem and possible solutions need to be developed more. Please continue to do research until you have a conclusion for your idea with evidence to support it.

allen_jr
10-25-2010, 12:22 PM
I do have a question and it has to do with entry fee's. What is the highest entry fee tournament within the United States?

I know the US open has numerous local events within the Virginia area that you can win your entry through, but never heard of any promotions like that outside of Virgina.

Also, I remember the IPT used to hold qualifiers and I remember a lot of those didnt even come close to getting 16 players showing up for them but I think the qualifiers were pretty spendy for the basic player and if they would have used your $50 entry fee and tried to fill a full field, then it may have worked better..


Oh, here is something interesting, I watched a tourney this weekend on a stream. Had 118 players, $40 entry fee, prize pool with Calcuttas was over $40k. Now I dont know if Calcuttas are legal or not within all states but in a lot of states they are. On the Stream there was always a crowd around the streaming tables and it seemed like a lot of people hung out there to watch because they had there money invested within the tourney. So why can't we set up a legal auction for players within a pro event? Has it ever been done legaly? Has it ever been promoted using the calcutta as a promotion tool?

I'm not sure what the highest entry fee is nationally. I do know that we tried an event with a $5000 entry fee, and set-up a qualifier system that poolrooms could use to get people in the event for as little as $25. The system would work, and did in some limited situations... our primary problem was lack of funds and manpower to properly promote the event at the local level, which is where it needs to happen.

We did get 12 players for this event, at $5000 each. The players were:
Dennis Orcollo
Corey Deuel
Francisco Bustamante
Shane Van Boening
Marlon Manalo
Daryl Peach
Dennis Hatch
Stevie Moore
Tony "T-Rex" Chohan
Johnny Archer
Matt Krah
Evan Broxmeyer

Yes, we got a much lower turnout than expected, but the players got to play plenty. Format was like this: players played each 25 games to get a score. Not a "best of" or "race to" anything. So the score could be 24-1 or 13-12. However many games they won was their score, and then they moved on to play another player based on scores. Their cumulative score carried with them throughout the first round, so that end of round 1, they had played every other player, and had played a total of 150 games. After round one, Orcollo was in the lead with 93 wins (26 Break n runs)..

There is a bit more to the format, and we made some changes (before event started) due to the low turnout. When it was over, Corey Deuel was the winner. I don't remember the exact payout structure, but it was based on the $60,000 in entry fees and we tried to make sure most players got something back, not an all-or-nothing event..

Anyway, sorry I am not getting into it more, its just a lot to type (and read)

As for calcuttas, I don't know much about the legality and how public they can be made. I was always under the impression that they were not really legal...

allen_jr
10-25-2010, 12:35 PM
For the same reason that Budweiser spends megabucks but I'd be interested in your answer to your question.

I know why the companies spend lots of money, are you asking me about Budweiser? My question and response was in reply to justnum saying that "Marketing is important if you are appealing to a group of people who don't know anything"

I'm pretty confident that consumers know about Budweiser, yet they continue to spend millions on marketing efforts. I am not questioning why companies spend lots of money. It also may be of interest to note that I have a bachelors degree in Marketing. Not that I am some sort of expert on it, but justnum seems to have a weak grasp on what it is and it's importance.


Is this a serious statement?
Have you ever made a final poker table in a 3 day event playing 12-14 hrs a day with 800+ players?
More difficult then you think.

Yes, this is a serious statement.
I have made several final tables, at the Borgata, the Taj, the Mirage, the WSOP (non-bracelet events, but daily events running concurrently in the room), and online on stars and tilt. I do know that poker requires some skill, but not nearly as much as pool, and luck is a huge factor. No, I have not made the final table of a 3 day event, but I've only played in 1 of them, and I made it to the end of day 2.

I admit I was exaggerating slightly, but my point was this:
Any person who knows the basic fundamentals of poker could sit down and play heads up with the best in the world (whoever you decide that to be) and have a chance to win. Say a player with "half a brain" moves all in with 2-2 and Phil Ivey call with AA. Of course, a 2 rolls off on the flop and the guy wins. Does this make him a better player than Ivey? Of course not, but my point is he can win.

This absolutely will never happen in pool. Maybe 1 game, sure. But you take an APA 4 and play against Shane race to 11. Do you think the APA 4 will ever win this race? It will never happen. Probably never happen with an APA 7 either.

You could play poker with the cards face up and still not guarantee to be a winner, thats my point. There's a huge luck factor.

justnum
10-25-2010, 12:52 PM
Spectators at a pool tournament might be better off behind a plate of glass. Especially the ones that chatter like freezing sailors on a winter morning.

Marie's husband
10-25-2010, 01:11 PM
I'm not sure what the highest entry fee is nationally. I do know that we tried an event with a $5000 entry fee, and set-up a qualifier system that poolrooms could use to get people in the event for as little as $25. The system would work, and did in some limited situations... our primary problem was lack of funds and manpower to properly promote the event at the local level, which is where it needs to happen.

We did get 12 players for this event, at $5000 each. The players were:
Dennis Orcollo
Corey Deuel
Francisco Bustamante
Shane Van Boening
Marlon Manalo
Daryl Peach
Dennis Hatch
Stevie Moore
Tony "T-Rex" Chohan
Johnny Archer
Matt Krah
Evan Broxmeyer

Yes, we got a much lower turnout than expected, but the players got to play plenty. Format was like this: players played each 25 games to get a score. Not a "best of" or "race to" anything. So the score could be 24-1 or 13-12. However many games they won was their score, and then they moved on to play another player based on scores. Their cumulative score carried with them throughout the first round, so that end of round 1, they had played every other player, and had played a total of 150 games. After round one, Orcollo was in the lead with 93 wins (26 Break n runs)..

There is a bit more to the format, and we made some changes (before event started) due to the low turnout. When it was over, Corey Deuel was the winner. I don't remember the exact payout structure, but it was based on the $60,000 in entry fees and we tried to make sure most players got something back, not an all-or-nothing event..

Anyway, sorry I am not getting into it more, its just a lot to type (and read)

As for calcuttas, I don't know much about the legality and how public they can be made. I was always under the impression that they were not really legal...

Thanks for the response, and I know that you are very familiar with a lot of the business/player side to tournament structure and how to organize a tournament so I am not doubting your experience in this subject.

It is my opinion that there is no way to start at the top and work you way down unless you plan on loosing millions for ten years or so. Anotherwords, I dont see how anyone will be able to start a pro tour for the top players within the US because there is no Governing Union/Organization within them. Yes I here that it is going to start, but I have heard that since the 80's and it has come and gone since then many times.

Were do I feel the best chance of top players becoming an organized group and having a form of qualification to achieve the ranking of Professional, the CSI/BCAPL. I could see this being a possibility of happening within the next 5 years if they wanted to take on that task. They already have a structured division process established so that is a great starting point to establish what criteria is required to become a Pro.
Like win the Nationals in the grand master division, or top 10, who however they would want to govern it.

If you look at the structure of tournaments that the BCA already has, the yearly nationals, the regional eight ball and nine ball tournaments, so that leads to at least 9 tournaments if they can start an NorthEast and SouthEast regional events. They are already set up to be at least a week long and that already draws hundreds/thousands of non pro players so it may be easily incorporated into the current setup and easily promoted. Also, the dates are pretty much not overlapping with the DCC/Swanee/US Open so they may be able to come together to make a 12 stop tour.

Even if the BCAPL looked into this and decided to give it a run, the players involved in this endeavor would not make a ton of money until it became marketable to a larger fan base. But you have to be able to prove you can create a fan base first.

I could go on, but like you said, it would really be a long read...

Dartman
10-25-2010, 05:09 PM
I know why the companies spend lots of money, are you asking me about Budweiser? My question and response was in reply to justnum saying that "Marketing is important if you are appealing to a group of people who don't know anything"

No I was suggesting that Bud is in the same boat as Coke - marketing to retain as well as aquire new customers. In Buds case, one of the reasons you see all the POP, signs, neons, etc is to sway the new beer drinker to buy a Bud product when faced with several choices at the point of sale. When it comes to marketing pool it's a different ball game. I've seen marketing for specific events but nothing for the sport in general. Just too many people trying to get a piece of whatever pie is there rather then try to work collectively to bring pool more into the mainstream.


I admit I was exaggerating slightly (poker) ... There's a huge luck factor.

Pool by far demands skill and maybe the occasional lucky roll - no argument at all there. The luck factor is beyond huge in poker but it does take a certain amount of skill to manage the luck one gets. I hear what you're saying and thankfully the half-brainers rarely win it all in the end.

justnum
10-25-2010, 07:59 PM
No I was suggesting that Bud is in the same boat as Coke - marketing to retain as well as aquire new customers. In Buds case, one of the reasons you see all the POP, signs, neons, etc is to sway the new beer drinker to buy a Bud product when faced with several choices at the point of sale. When it comes to marketing pool it's a different ball game. I've seen marketing for specific events but nothing for the sport in general. Just too many people trying to get a piece of whatever pie is there rather then try to work collectively to bring pool more into the mainstream.



Pool by far demands skill and maybe the occasional lucky roll - no argument at all there. The luck factor is beyond huge in poker but it does take a certain amount of skill to manage the luck one gets. I hear what you're saying and thankfully the half-brainers rarely win it all in the end.

Managing luck or risk is referred to as an actuarial science. Those "risktakers" consist of a strategy table (a list of probabilities), a person memorizing the table and a person applying the information at a game. To me poker is a game of memory. I like professional roulette.

justnum
10-25-2010, 08:16 PM
justnum,

I'm guessing here, but in my opinion you've probably never been to a pool tournament with over 32 players.

Have you ever been to the Derby City Classic? 1200 players for 9 days. Can you even imagine having a 9 day event with 1200 players? Spectators average around 250-300 per day.

I'm also guessing you probably don't know who Allen_Jr is.

You seem to be guessing a lot about the details of promoting a tournament.

First off, the Promoter hires the Tournament Director to run the tournament. The tournament is the format that the players follow to determine the champion.

Everything else is handled by the Promoter; getting the sponsors for added money, the venue, the tables, advertising and staff.

Guesswork is common in investigations. So is deciding who has reliable information and who doesn't have it.

The idea of a sound barrier between the fans and the playing area is one you have helped me develop. Thank you. Your inspiration has been invaluable. Hockey has one but that is too protect the audience. It shouldn't be difficult to modify it as an acoustic shield.

justnum
10-25-2010, 09:47 PM
justnum:

Please let me know the date and time of your tournament. I don't want to miss it on the live stream. ;)

Roger

Would you prefer to play in it?

jay helfert
10-25-2010, 09:56 PM
Theoretical Pool Tournament

64 Players

10 Legends
10 Rising Stars
24 Nobody's
20 Professionals

Tournament Arena Capacity 1000 people
Legend attracts 100 people
Rising Star attracts 50 people
Professionals attract 5 people.

Rent for Arena: $2500 daily
Popcorn: $1
Soda: $1
Alcohol: $5
Tickets: $10

If 10 legends play on the same day income from tickets is $10,000. If those fans are hungry or thirsty the minimum income is $1 the maximum income is $28 (four of each item). Total income from food and drink is $28,000.
For that day when all legends play income is $38,000, deduct arena fees and the remaining is $35,500. How many days should they play?

Big tournaments can make the most money from food, drink and tickets. I would post code so that you can adjust the numbers. I don't want to argue the different values, use a spreadsheet program.

This is a joke, right? Since nothing on here has anything to do with any reality that I've ever seen. This is what I would call an over simplified version of someone's cliff notes on producing a pool tournament. I wouldn't know where to begin to answer this (if there was even a question raised), other than to say that as TD I never touch ANY of the money!

justnum
10-25-2010, 10:13 PM
Are you having trouble understanding the numbers in the post? It is a proposed budget of an event. It is common practice to prepare estimates. Since everyone knows how much players get paid why not show how the numbers reveal how much promoters/directors cash out or potentially can cash out. At the time when the event starts the person operating the event has capital from players if they pay early when expenses are high. During the event cash flow is high but expenses are low.

You got something against calculating estimates?

The tournament is a great way to learn money management.

allen_jr
10-25-2010, 10:16 PM
This is a joke, right? Since nothing on here has anything to do with any reality that I've ever seen. This is what I would call an over simplified version of someone's cliff notes on producing a pool tournament. I wouldn't know where to begin to answer this (if there was even a question raised), other than to say that as TD I never touch ANY of the money!

Haha, yes Jay, I'm starting to believe it as well... Guess I fell for it :)

justnum
10-25-2010, 10:17 PM
My real goal was to make a thread have 1000 views in the man forum.

justnum
10-25-2010, 10:20 PM
I like the ethical dilemma of a non-neutral party holding excessive amounts of cash. This is common in many places.

If a money order is prepared at the start of the tournament than it shows good money planning. A display of cash is as valuable but is susceptible to ethical problems.

The money orders can be bought before the tournament. The purchase is dated and the cash out can be dated as well. Its much better than escrow. The money order transactions can be witnessed by a player or some non-management party.

Cash payments make it seem like someone took an advance on the player's payouts and are filling in gaps at the last minute with available cash, maybe from the hotdog stand.

allen_jr
10-25-2010, 10:20 PM
My real goal was to make a thread have 1000 views in the man forum.

Good luck, your 3/4 of way there ...

justnum
10-25-2010, 10:25 PM
It is amazing the amount of trust some people put into others that handle money matters. I am amazed by some of your comments. I think you either didn't grow up with money or have no idea the problems money attracts.

jay helfert
10-25-2010, 10:26 PM
My real goal was to make a thread have 1000 views in the man forum.

Okay, now it all makes sense. :rolleyes:

justnum
10-25-2010, 10:27 PM
I prefer if comments not about the thread be kept off the thread.

You can make that happen by thinking if your comment quantifies anything at a pool tournament,

jay helfert
10-25-2010, 10:38 PM
Are you having trouble understanding the numbers in the post? It is a proposed budget of an event. It is common practice to prepare estimates. Since everyone knows how much players get paid why not show how the numbers reveal how much promoters/directors cash out or potentially can cash out. At the time when the event starts the person operating the event has capital from players if they pay early when expenses are high. During the event cash flow is high but expenses are low.

You got something against calculating estimates?

The tournament is a great way to learn money management.

What numbers? What budget? If I ever showed you all the numbers and expenses that go into producing a major event, you would realize that your "cliff notes" version doesn't even begin to tell the story. And that's before you take into account the actual logistics of setting up the event. If you only knew! You haven't even touched the surface yet my friend.

By the way, there were over 1,000 spectators in attendance at the Open during more than one session. I will only add one more thing to your "estimates." The actual costs involved in producing the U.S. Open are well into six figures and the income derived may not cover all the costs. That's about as plain and simple as I can make it.

The U.S. Open, in effect, is one big pool party that Barry Behrman puts on every year. It is also a great promotion for pool in the Norfolk area, and as the owner of a large poolroom that has to help his business. He certainly doesn't want to take a bath on it, but is he overly concerned with making a profit, I think not.

justnum
10-26-2010, 04:50 AM
From what I saw either the arena or the tables were the highest expense for the tournament. The cost of attracting the players to the event seems minimal. The cost of attracting fans to the event also minimal. On days when average pros were playing attendance barely outnumbered players.

The first ethical dilemma is if the money for the entry fee be used explicitly to payout players or can it be used for tournament expenses?

The first problem is are players also venture capitalists when they play in a tournament (entry fees used for tournament expenses)? As a group they put up a lot of money, that makes them investors or venture capitalists. Why can't the tournament wait to collect entry fees until after the tournament is over? It is like a mechanic they work first and ask for payment later. If that's how a tournament is players pay entry when they collect their prizes then there is no chance of losing their investment.

If the cash prizes aren't prepared ahead of time and they depend on money made at the tournament from sales, then that entitles them to more than a fixed amount. The players serve as a zero percent loan or investment in a tournament product, they are now investors or venture capitalists. The percentage of money the players put up in capital makes them capitalists with entitlements to a percentage of income from ticket sales. Their cut should be determined based on the initial percentage of investment. If they put up 60% of expenses they should at least get 60% of income.

The players put up 60% of the initial investment for payouts but the money might not get used to pay out it could be used to rent a room or pay for the tables. That is another dilemma. If the money is used for expenses other than payouts, players become venture capitalists and investors to the tournament. Investor fees are very high in the business world. Venture capitalists are cheap and are quick to make estimates to determine a fair fee for the person writing out documents, the boring part of the job. The capitalists deal with the worry of making the money back. The person with the idea or tournament worries about how much money they need to make to want to run the event again.

chefjeff
10-26-2010, 05:47 AM
(snip) The cost of attracting fans to the event also minimal. (snip).

Could you show us how much it would cost to attract 1,000 paying spectators?...and how you'd do it?

Jeff Livingston

justnum
10-26-2010, 06:23 AM
Cheap fans or expensive ones.

Expensive fans are usually drawn out by a well-known media figure.

Cheap fans are drawn out if there is free stuff.

The choices are between free stuff or people that you would want to be photographed with.

I used to be with a company that supplied entertainment at events. One event was the opening of a store. I would setup equipment that plays loud music on the street and that would attract locals to check it out. They would stick around if there was free food or other stuff. Games kept kids busy, food kept people busy and staff girls would keep pervs busy.

The free stuff would then be talked about and attract friends.


Expensive fans like private areas with a limited number of people. They prefer to have a show that has a schedule. They particularly like showing up just for the big show and skipping out on everything else. Ceremonies of traditional significance draw large crowds. The gimmicks I have seen are auctions.

chefjeff
10-26-2010, 06:30 AM
Cheap fans or expensive ones.

Expensive fans are usually drawn out by a well-known media figure.

Cheap fans are drawn out if there is free stuff.

The choices are between free stuff or people that you would want to be photographed with.

I used to be with a company that supplied entertainment at events. One event was the opening of a store. I would setup equipment that plays loud music and that would attract locals to check it out. They would stick around if there was free food or other stuff. Games kept kids busy, food kept people busy and staff girls would keep pervs busy.

The free stuff would then be talked about and attract friends.

How would you get 1,000 paying spectators to a pool tourney?

Jeff Livingston

justnum
10-26-2010, 06:37 AM
How would you get 1,000 paying spectators to a pool tourney?

Jeff Livingston

I will discuss with you techniques that are common in practice. I will not discuss with you how to do a specific job.

"CaliRed".
10-26-2010, 07:05 AM
this thread is actually quite funny. It's interesting to see someone (justnum) state everything so matter of fact, like their words are coming from 40 years experience in the tournament and marketing side of the business.

If you would be so kind, when you are done schooling everyone here on how to hold a tournament and market it, if you have the time, can you please tell me the correct way to extract the C25YU^TH chromosome from a 45 year old DNA strand found in a attic with a average temperature of 47.3 degrees?

Oh... sorry, left some important info out.......the DNA strand is .04876 microns wide by 3 ft. long and has been preserved in mule urine gathered from the slopes of ~El Knowitall in the west Andes on the 84th parallel.

Thank you in advance for your upcoming words of wisdom:grin::)

chefjeff
10-26-2010, 07:07 AM
I will discuss with you techniques that are common in practice. I will not discuss with you how to do a specific job.

Didn't you say that it isn't costly to do it?

I'm just wondering how it could be done at all, let alone doing it on the cheap.

Nevermind, then, if it's too much trouble to explain it.

Jeff Livingston

justnum
10-26-2010, 11:56 AM
Didn't you say that it isn't costly to do it?

I'm just wondering how it could be done at all, let alone doing it on the cheap.

Nevermind, then, if it's too much trouble to explain it.

Jeff Livingston

That is a great idea for a project assignment. I wonder if the class will follow-up on those ideas, on their own.
(I miss teaching.)

Posters on this thread aren't so bad. Seems like they just want someone to tell them what to do.