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SUPERSTAR
10-23-2010, 12:44 PM
WOW!
Someone get this man some tissues.
This is ridiculous!!!!

As far as i am concerned, neutral racker means NO COMPLAINING!!!

SHUT UP AND BREAK THEM!

cbi1000
10-23-2010, 12:45 PM
WOW!
Someone get this man some tissues.
This is ridiculous!!!!

As far as i am concerned, neutral racker means NO COMPLAINING!!!

SHUT UP AND BREAK THEM!

magic rack = problem solved

Kuroky
10-23-2010, 12:46 PM
Is this why the score has been 9 - 10 since forever?

Jason Robichaud
10-23-2010, 12:46 PM
WOW!
Someone get this man some tissues.
This is ridiculous!!!!

As far as i am concerned, neutral racker means NO COMPLAINING!!!

SHUT UP AND BREAK THEM!

Is it slowing play, the score update seems to be really slow. Taking over 10 minutes per game

cuehobby
10-23-2010, 12:47 PM
i bet this is the only time he's complaining; but not while winning from the start of the open.

SUPERSTAR
10-23-2010, 12:48 PM
Gee.
Why doesn't it surprise me that when there is a neutral racker, there are no huge packages.
Hhmmmmmmmmm.:rolleyes:

Jason Robichaud
10-23-2010, 12:48 PM
magic rack = problem solved

People cry it makes it easier, but you still have to play shape for the low ball and run the others. It would eliminate all racking issues.

SUPERSTAR
10-23-2010, 12:50 PM
And don't blame the racker for dogging the daylights out of that 7ball.
That's all you!!!

CHIHUAHUA!!!!!

Kuroky
10-23-2010, 12:52 PM
Darren wins! :grin:

Jesse Ventura
10-23-2010, 12:55 PM
What is the race ...? Corey has 14 ....! wtf .....?

SUPERSTAR
10-23-2010, 12:58 PM
What is the race ...? Corey has 14 ....! wtf .....?

It was win by 2 on the final day.

Jesse Ventura
10-23-2010, 12:58 PM
Thanx S.S.

Fatboy
10-23-2010, 01:00 PM
WOW!
Someone get this man some tissues.
This is ridiculous!!!!

As far as i am concerned, neutral racker means NO COMPLAINING!!!

SHUT UP AND BREAK THEM!


while I agree with you on no crying, however if 20%-30% of my annual income came down to a slug rack, I'd be ***** and moaning full blast.


If it was in a $2500 tournemrnt then yeah shut up and break.

SUPERSTAR
10-23-2010, 01:06 PM
while I agree with you on no crying, however if 20%-30% of my annual income came down to a slug rack, I'd be ***** and moaning full blast.


If it was in a $2500 tournemrnt then yeah shut up and break.


Yeah, but neutral racker means they are BOTH getting the same rack.

Unless one of the rackers has a book going on matches, and is taking bets, there should be no complaining.

Jason Robichaud
10-23-2010, 01:07 PM
Yeah, but neutral racker means they are BOTH getting the same rack.

Unless one of the rackers has a book going on matches, and is taking bets, there should be no complaining.

If a racker puts up a bad rack, you shouldn't be able to have them correct it because they are a neutral racker??? what if they don't give the other guy the same bad rack?

Worminator
10-23-2010, 01:10 PM
The rack in this caliber of tournament, with a neutral racker, should be like balls and strikes being called in baseball... there is no disputing it. It's up to the neutral racker to give it his best rack for both players... end of story.

SUPERSTAR
10-23-2010, 01:15 PM
If a racker puts up a bad rack, you shouldn't be able to have them correct it because they are a neutral racker??? what if they don't give the other guy the same bad rack?

Now you are getting into conspiracy theories that someone is racking bad for one individual, and not for the other.

One thing to complain about one rack.
NOT the same thing to complain about several when things don't go your way.
If there is a neutral ref for a racker, then what the ref says, GOES!
Those are the rules.

If you noticed, when Mika went and touched the rack, it was instantly re-racked because he touched it. (great enforcement of the rules by the way)

Believe me, it is in the best interest of everyone involved if good racks are given by refs all around.
Mika is just mad cause he wasn't running packages like he was when it was rack your own, i.e., rack to your advantage.

Jason Robichaud
10-23-2010, 01:21 PM
Now you are getting into conspiracy theories that someone is racking bad for one individual, and not for the other.

One thing to complain about one rack.
NOT the same thing to complain about several when things don't go your way.
If there is a neutral ref for a racker, then what the ref says, GOES!
Those are the rules.

If you noticed, when Mika went and touched the rack, it was instantly re-racked because he touched it. (great enforcement of the rules by the way)

Believe me, it is in the best interest of everyone involved if good racks are given by refs all around.
Mika is just mad cause he wasn't running packages like he was when it was rack your own, i.e., rack to your advantage.

I'm not saying there is a conspiracy, I'm saying the neutral racker might put up a rack with gaps. Having a neutral racker will give random racks preventing pattern racking, but it shouldn't force the breaker to hit a slug rack.

DogsPlayingPool
10-23-2010, 01:22 PM
A player should be able to inspect a neutral rack. If it is a volunteer racker then he can ask for a re-rack. If there is still a dispute the ref can be called over to determine if the rack is good or the ref can then rack them.

If it is a ref racking the balls, a player should still be able to inspect the rack. Balls can move after the ref has lifted the rack and moved away from the table or there may be a space between two balls that the ref didn't see. If the player has a problem then he can explain to the ref what is wrong and the ref can either agree and re-rack, or judge the rack good and order the player to break.

whitewolf
10-23-2010, 01:24 PM
WOW!
Someone get this man some tissues.
This is ridiculous!!!!

As far as i am concerned, neutral racker means NO COMPLAINING!!!

SHUT UP AND BREAK THEM!

This is EXACTLY why I elected not to go back to the US Open this year. I feel like a European socker fan ready to jump out of the stands and kick someone's ass. Barry needs to straighten this SH!T out once and for all. You cry, you get a warning. Then, just like in baseball, you cry again and your tournament money is forfeited to a charity.:mad:

SUPERSTAR
10-23-2010, 01:28 PM
I'm not saying there is a conspiracy, I'm saying the neutral racker might put up a rack with gaps. Having a neutral racker will give random racks preventing pattern racking, but it shouldn't force the breaker to hit a slug rack.

If you were watching the stream, they did everything they could to accommodate Mika, and he was STILL crying.
They didn't force anything.
Which is the basis of my point.

Do you really think that the rackers involved are going to give a bad rack at this point in the game?
I don't think so.

Jason Robichaud
10-23-2010, 01:34 PM
If you were watching the stream, they did everything they could to accommodate Mika, and he was STILL crying.
They didn't force anything.
Which is the basis of my point.

Do you really think that the rackers involved are going to give a bad rack at this point in the game?
I don't think so.

He is probably just proving his point... why change it now, and here you go for doing so.

justadub
10-23-2010, 01:37 PM
Can anyone confirm if it was Jay racking?

evanlockhart
10-23-2010, 01:39 PM
This is for Mika's THIRD US Open Championship in a row, and definitely one of the biggest pool tournaments in the world. If the rack is off, the rack is off. He has every right in the world to be 100% SURE it's nice and tight. He's not "crying", he just wants a fair chance at playing his best pool, and a controlled break with a shot at your next objective ball is huge at this level...bigger than spectators or people on forums "crying" that he wants a rack done right.

Tony_in_MD
10-23-2010, 01:42 PM
Yes jay was racking

Can anyone confirm if it was Jay racking?

justadub
10-23-2010, 01:43 PM
Yes jay was racking

Verrrry interesting.

Hopefully we'll get some first hand analysis sometime over the next few days.

Interesting indeed.
Thanks

evanlockhart
10-23-2010, 01:45 PM
Can anyone confirm if it was Jay racking?

Jay was/is still racking.

Mika won the first rack with a 7-9 combo

Corey played an incredible safe on the 8, hiding the cue ball behind the 9 and then made a great bank on the 8 after Mika hit the 8 on kick.

It's tied 1-1, Corey breaking

javi2
10-23-2010, 01:59 PM
Heck of a jump by Corey!

Tony_in_MD
10-23-2010, 02:07 PM
Jay is Not racking for the Cory mika match. Eric Hu knows who it is some head ref for the Bca

Jay was/is still racking.

Mika won the first rack with a 7-9 combo

Corey played an incredible safe on the 8, hiding the cue ball behind the 9 and then made a great bank on the 8 after Mika hit the 8 on kick.

It's tied 1-1, Corey breaking

UrackmIcrackm
10-23-2010, 02:23 PM
Jay is Not racking for the Cory mika match. Eric Hu knows who it is some head ref for the Bca

Sounds like Ken Schuman (sp?). Barry appointed Ken as the TD a few years ago. Between being the TD and a certified ref, it would make sense for Ken to stand watch over the final matches.

Tony_in_MD
10-23-2010, 02:27 PM
He is not Ken. It is someone I have never seen before and I have been coming here for years.

Sounds like Ken Schuman (sp?). Barry appointed Ken as the TD a few years ago. Between being the TD and a certified ref, it would make sense for Ken to stand watch over the final matches.

JarnoV
10-23-2010, 02:27 PM
Sounds like Ken Schuman (sp?).

It's not Ken who's racking.

I don't recognize him, but his first name is Bill.

rayshooter22
10-23-2010, 02:28 PM
This tournament has been rack your own the whole time.. Why switch to a neutral racker now?? Kind of Silly..

UrackmIcrackm
10-23-2010, 02:34 PM
It's not Ken who's racking.

I don't recognize him, but his first name is Bill.

Probably Bill Stock then.

JarnoV
10-23-2010, 02:38 PM
Neither of the players are accepting the rack they are first given. Bill Stock then re-racks and they just have to accept the rack then.

Tony_in_MD
10-23-2010, 02:46 PM
Yes seems they get one rerack.

Neither of the players are accepting the rack they are first given. Bill Stock then re-racks and they just have to accept the rack then.

Eric.
10-23-2010, 02:50 PM
It is bill stock, director of refs, bcapl.


Eric

ridinda9
10-23-2010, 02:56 PM
Gee.
Why doesn't it surprise me that when there is a neutral racker, there are no huge packages.
Hhmmmmmmmmm.:rolleyes:

doesn't matter who racks , I still have a HUGE PACKAGE !!

Surpise , surprise !!

AnitoKid
10-23-2010, 02:56 PM
Im subscribing to this thread!

AnitoKid

SUPERSTAR
10-23-2010, 03:11 PM
And now he's crying about Corey's "goofy" break.

LOL

lukemindish
10-23-2010, 03:15 PM
[QUOTE=SUPERSTAR;2671896]And now he's crying about Corey's "goofy" break.

LOL[/QUOTE

Mika didnt even stand up to shake his hand after corey won, and then calls his break goofy. What a sore loser.

iusedtoberich
10-23-2010, 03:20 PM
Does anyone actually like Mika? I mean, Earl has haters AND fans. Does Mika have any fans?

javi2
10-23-2010, 03:21 PM
I thought I heard him say "goofy break"?! I was hoping I heard wrong. If so, Corey outclassed him by not responding and still relating how he respected Mika as a player. Well done Corey! Keeping your cool is what got you this far.

sk8ordie
10-23-2010, 03:27 PM
[QUOTE=SUPERSTAR;2671896]And now he's crying about Corey's "goofy" break.

LOL[/QUOTE

Mika didnt even stand up to shake his hand after corey won, and then calls his break goofy. What a sore loser.

F@&k Mika! :angry:
Go Corey!:grin:

SUPERSTAR
10-23-2010, 03:31 PM
I think we just witnessed someone literally, CRY themselves out of a potential U.S. open triple crown victory.

Guaranteed he would have done better if he just focused on the task at hand.

lukemindish
10-23-2010, 03:34 PM
Once Mika hung that seven ball against appleton it was all over. I still dont get why they call him the iceman.

SUPERSTAR
10-23-2010, 03:36 PM
Does anyone actually like Mika? I mean, Earl has haters AND fans. Does Mika have any fans?

Off the table, Mika is really a nice guy.

But ON the table when things aren't going his way, he's just ridiculous.

Someone needs to bust out the HUGGIES!

AtLarge
10-23-2010, 03:37 PM
... I still dont get why they call him the iceman.

Finland has lots of ice?

TATE
10-23-2010, 03:47 PM
I think we just witnessed someone literally, CRY themselves out of a potential U.S. open triple crown victory.

Guaranteed he would have done better if he just focused on the task at hand.

Jay hasn't given a tight rack since 1962, when a kid broke and ran out on him playing caroms one day. Teaching Jay how to not make slugs is like trying to teach a fish how to run!

Just kidding of course. Maybe somebody tapped that table - it looked like it was very difficult to rack on it. Notice in the next match they were only allowed one re-rack. Poor Jay had to sit there and take that crap and Mika got himself out of stroke looking for the non-existant perfect rack.

Chris

TheVirus
10-23-2010, 03:52 PM
I say he has a right to complain about the rack... I also know that's why he lost. Frustration can get the best of you. SUre for most of us here we say shut up and break dumbass, to our friends of coures, but in something as big as this, and yes it is big, its huge, a perfect rack should be given each and every time.

I'm not a fan of hte magic rack, what if a ball stays on it? or the cue rolls over it? thats affects the shot.. but i digress..

When it comes to money, no one should complain about a complainer because if they were in the situation, they'd probably care too.

sfleinen
10-23-2010, 03:54 PM
Off the table, Mika is really a nice guy.

But ON the table when things aren't going his way, he's just ridiculous.

Someone needs to bust out the HUGGIES!

Actually, Mika's only a "nice guy" if you happen to: a.) be a member of his close-knit circle of friends or he knows you well; b.) be a member of the press, an upper-echelon billiards/pool official, tournament director/promoter, or other official standing that behooves him to be nice to you.

Otherwise, you're just one of the "gray people" to him -- people in the background that mean nothing to him. Deity-complex big time.

-Sean

SUPERSTAR
10-23-2010, 03:54 PM
Once Mika hung that seven ball against appleton it was all over. I still dont get why they call him the iceman.

Maybe they should rename him.

The Renfro
10-23-2010, 04:01 PM
They actually had to change the spot on the table between the matches due to it being slightly off. I understand that that should make it equal for both players.

I said should... In reality the spot being off very well could favor either player since everyone has a slightly different break due to attack angle, speed, english, and preferred contact point.

Mika has worked on his break likely for more hours than most of us have hit balls. He knows what it takes to make a ball consistently. To hit the ball perfect and watch the corner ball barely miss the pocket consistently would indeed to me indicate a problem with the rack.

In my opinion Mika had every right to complain about the rack if it was not yielding consistent results. When you work on something that hard and that long and suddenly you don't get the results you have gotten for years either you are dogging it or there is a variable at work that you need to have dealt with. Otherwise you consistently break dry.

What should he have done? He played all week rack your own and had been having no problems. He had worked on his rack and break at every chance he had when a table was open on the floor. Maybe today he should have tried a soft cut... Using right english instead of left... Follow instead of draw... Knocked the crap out of em like Earl....

He came in today with the break he worked on all week at the tournament. He played in the same conditions we had seen all week as far as cloth speed, skid, humidity and temperature. His break should have been working. It wasn't.... His fault or the rack?

sfleinen
10-23-2010, 04:09 PM
They actually had to change the spot on the table between the matches due to it being slightly off. I understand that that should make it equal for both players.

I said should... In reality the spot being off very well could favor either player since everyone has a slightly different break due to attack angle, speed, english, and preferred contact point.

Mika has worked on his break likely for more hours than most of us have hit balls. He knows what it takes to make a ball consistently. To hit the ball perfect and watch the corner ball barely miss the pocket consistently would indeed to me indicate a problem with the rack.

In my opinion Mika had every right to complain about the rack if it was not yielding consistent results. When you work on something that hard and that long and suddenly you don't get the results you have gotten for years either you are dogging it or there is a variable at work that you need to have dealt with. Otherwise you consistently break dry.

What should he have done? He played all week rack your own and had been having no problems. He had worked on his rack and break at every chance he had when a table was open on the floor. Maybe today he should have tried a soft cut... Using right english instead of left... Follow instead of draw... Knocked the crap out of em like Earl....

He came in today with the break he worked on all week at the tournament. He played in the same conditions we had seen all week as far as cloth speed, skid, humidity and temperature. His break should have been working. It wasn't.... His fault or the rack?

Renfro:

Thanks for this well-written synopsis. While the logic behind what you say is for the most part sound, the problem is that this sport -- and especially this luck-/rolls-vulnerable game of 9-ball -- requires ADAPTATION. The best players adapt to the conditions without complaining (or at least don't let the process of adaptation itself frustrate them internally); others, well... they might have the initials M.I...

-Sean

MikeyFields
10-23-2010, 04:11 PM
Off the table, Mika is really a nice guy.

But ON the table when things aren't going his way, he's just ridiculous.

Someone needs to bust out the HUGGIES!

You know a different guy. He's a complete dick off the table. One day after he won a Blaze tour stop we were asked by the TD if we could give him a ride. Took him to Manhattan from West Hempstead (Raxx Pool room). It took an hour and a half. He didn't say a word the whole time, we tried talking to him the whole way, just basically ignored us, then when we got to where he needed to go he just got out and shut the door, didn't say thanks or anything. He just won over 2g's and couldnt throw us a dime for gas or tolls let alone say thanks. I been to 35 tournaments easy where he was and he was the same jerk at everyone.



Actually, Mika's only a "nice guy" if you happen to: a.) be a member of his close-knit circle of friends or he knows you well; b.) be a member of the press, an upper-echelon billiards/pool official, tournament director/promoter, or other official standing that behooves him to be nice to you.

Otherwise, you're just one of the "gray people" to him -- people in the background that mean nothing to him. Deity-complex big time.

-Sean

+1



Did you guys what his TAR match against SVB last week? It was rack your own with a magic rack and he ***** all 3 days after the break. And ***** when he dogged shots. It was aggravating to watch him act that way.

Johnnyt
10-23-2010, 04:16 PM
You don't change from rack your own to nuetral racker after a week...esp for the semi finals and finals. We're talking about the US Open here, not some $500 regional tour stop. Yes Barry or the TD can do whatever they want but it don't make it right. They have a year in between tournaments. Plenty of time to get things right and stay with them ALL through the tournament. Johnnyt

atthecat
10-23-2010, 04:21 PM
Might be a diaper rash that is making him cranky:smile:

Island Drive
10-23-2010, 04:33 PM
And don't blame the racker for dogging the daylights out of that 7ball.
That's all you!!!

CHIHUAHUA!!!!!

Haven't read any threads yet but to me it sounds like Mika was counting his money too soon.

Jimbojim
10-23-2010, 04:35 PM
You know a different guy. He's a complete dick off the table. One day after he won a Blaze tour stop we were asked by the TD if we could give him a ride. Took him to Manhattan from West Hempstead (Raxx Pool room). It took an hour and a half. He didn't say a word the whole time, we tried talking to him the whole way, just basically ignored us, then when we got to where he needed to go he just got out and shut the door, didn't say thanks or anything. He just won over 2g's and couldnt throw us a dime for gas or tolls let alone say thanks. I been to 35 tournaments easy where he was and he was the same jerk at everyone.





+1



Did you guys what his TAR match against SVB last week? It was rack your own with a magic rack and he ***** all 3 days after the break. And ***** when he dogged shots. It was aggravating to watch him act that way.

That's a really disgusting thing to do to good people who offer you a ride. I can understand being shy and not knowing what to talk about but when you have some people talking to you, don't act like you above them......bad Mika.

SUPERSTAR
10-23-2010, 04:35 PM
You know a different guy. He's a complete dick off the table.

Could be.
Maybe that's cause i don't tolerate people that are dicks and set them straight when they get out of line.
Usually after that, they tend to have some respect, or they ignore me even more, or just flat out hate me.
Either way, it doesn't bother me.

But i see what you are saying.
Maybe you should make fun of him at every tournament you see him at till he gets the point to learn some manners.

But at the same time, it's like gambling.
If you didn't set the terms upfront about the ride...

I would have been like, $100 bucks, or go get yourself a cab.
That would have settled all the issues right there.

UrackmIcrackm
10-23-2010, 04:38 PM
You don't change from rack your own to nuetral racker after a week...esp for the semi finals and finals. We're talking about the US Open here, not some $500 regional tour stop. Yes Barry or the TD can do whatever they want but it don't make it right. They have a year in between tournaments. Plenty of time to get things right and stay with them ALL through the tournament. Johnnyt

Agreed. You're going to love this... the finals will be rack your own. LOL, insanity!

Island Drive
10-23-2010, 04:45 PM
Renfro:

Thanks for this well-written synopsis. While the logic behind what you say is for the most part sound, the problem is that this sport -- and especially this luck-/rolls-vulnerable game of 9-ball -- requires ADAPTATION. The best players adapt to the conditions without complaining (or at least don't let the process of adaptation itself frustrate them internally); others, well... they might have the initials M.I...

-Sean



One can spend time getting better at complaining or one can watch/learn/realize playing conditions have changed and wait for their turn/if your complaining your not attending to business. All good players know that when you near the dew point (E.Coast) and the crowds are huge and the air is getting heavier, conditions change dramatically compared to earlier in the event, especially being Saturday, allot of people have the time to attend.

Island Drive
10-23-2010, 04:51 PM
Agreed. You're going to love this... the finals will be rack your own. LOL, insanity!

I'm sure there's a joke I missed somewhere, but Scott the Shot Smith has always racked the finals in the past.

UrackmIcrackm
10-23-2010, 04:54 PM
I'm sure there's a joke I missed somewhere, but Scott the Shot Smith has always racked the finals in the past.

Not a joke. I was told by a friend that is there that they changed the final back to rack your own.

sk8ordie
10-23-2010, 05:05 PM
I wasn't fortunate enough to watch the match due to work but, didn't Corey have the same neutral racker, table and conditions as Mika? I didn't hear anything about Corey b!tchen or moaning about the racks. Sounds like Corey was more focused on adapting to the conditions and winning 11-3. Did Corey just get lucky or blessed with all the good racks and his "goofy break" to win 11-3? Unbelievable. Corey would've beat him anyway. Go Corey.

Ky Boy
10-23-2010, 05:12 PM
Actually, Mika's only a "nice guy" if you happen to: a.) be a member of his close-knit circle of friends or he knows you well; b.) be a member of the press, an upper-echelon billiards/pool official, tournament director/promoter, or other official standing that behooves him to be nice to you.

Otherwise, you're just one of the "gray people" to him -- people in the background that mean nothing to him. Deity-complex big time.

-Sean



This seems spot on to me having been around Mika at the DCC so many times....7-8 years ago before he was winning and playing at his current level he was not as bad.

However, at DCC last year he came in and sit in front of me watching from the balcony above. He was sipping wine and having a good time it seemed. I leaned forward and congratulated him on winning the open and it was obvious that he could care less about about anything I said to him.....what a flake!!!


Gary

PoolJunkie216
10-23-2010, 05:22 PM
Mika like any other player has a 100% right to complain about a rack. I notice that people like to pile on to him due to their opinions of how he acts at the table as if it affects you personally. The outright bias against him is beyond ridiculous.

As far as his attitude goes, ignore the guy if he is that much of a dick. There is no rule that anyone has to be nice to another.

UrackmIcrackm
10-23-2010, 05:30 PM
Agreed. You're going to love this... the finals will be rack your own. LOL, insanity!


My apologies. I was just informed that they changed their mind again. They were going to switch back to rack your own but then decided against it. It was good info when I posted it. :o

AJC
10-23-2010, 05:32 PM
Not a joke. I was told by a friend that is there that they changed the final back to rack your own.

You've got to be shittin me???

UrackmIcrackm
10-23-2010, 05:38 PM
You've got to be shittin me???

Please see the post directly above this one. They decided not to go back to rack your own.

AJC
10-23-2010, 05:39 PM
My apologies. I was just informed that they changed their mind again. They were going to switch back to rack your own but then decided against it. It was good info when I posted it. :o

If they would have changed there would have been a never ending controversy about it

AJC
10-23-2010, 05:40 PM
Please see the post directly above this one. They decided not to go back to rack your own.

Sorry I was writing while you were posting

eddiethelock
10-23-2010, 05:47 PM
This is for Mika's THIRD US Open Championship in a row, and definitely one of the biggest pool tournaments in the world. If the rack is off, the rack is off. He has every right in the world to be 100% SURE it's nice and tight. He's not "crying", he just wants a fair chance at playing his best pool, and a controlled break with a shot at your next objective ball is huge at this level...bigger than spectators or people on forums "crying" that he wants a rack done right.

Amen Evan you nailed it

whitewolf
10-24-2010, 07:40 AM
I'm not a fan of hte magic rack, what if a ball stays on it? or the cue rolls over it? thats affects the shot.. but i digress..



That's exactly what I have been saying, and not one AZer can see this. All they can talk about is how great it is - like Jay H. the Delta rack lover. Were they using this rack in the Open? Last year all Barry could talk about was how great it was. Puke!!!!!

Now, like I have been saying in many threads, bring back the Sardo rack and we would be done with this crap. I will note also that not one person on AZ has agreed to this besides me as far as I know.

Accordingly, you billiards fans deserve this. It RUINS the whole US Open experience.

SUPERSTAR
10-24-2010, 08:10 AM
Now, like I have been saying in many threads, bring back the Sardo rack and we would be done with this crap. I will note also that not one person on AZ has agreed to this besides me as far as I know.



No disrespect, but Sardo wasn't a rack.
Sardo was smashing craters into the table when no one was looking, i.e. prepping the table (aka water dropper and pounding the balls into place), so that you could rack the balls without the sardo gizmo on top of it.
That gizmo was all for show.
The craters kept the balls in place.

MikeM
10-24-2010, 09:13 AM
WOW!
Someone get this man some tissues.
This is ridiculous!!!!

As far as i am concerned, neutral racker means NO COMPLAINING!!!

SHUT UP AND BREAK THEM!

If only someone could come up with a way to take all the controversy out of the break.....someone must have some good ideas to do this!!!!:(:o:wink::grin-square:

SUPERSTAR
10-24-2010, 10:11 AM
If only someone could come up with a way to take all the controversy out of the break.....someone must have some good ideas to do this!!!!:(:o:wink::grin-square:

There is a way to take controversy out of the rack.
Educate yourself on how to rack, and what each space in the rack means.

Sure, a perfect rack makes it easy, but if you KNOW the rack, and you know the dynamics of the rack and all it's little spaces, you can make a ball with almost any rack thrown up there in 9ball, unless it is a bonafied SLUG.

To me, most of the players crying about the rack, are spoiled.
They expect perfection, when perfection is not always possible due to table or equipment conditions.
This doesn't affect the players who actually understand the dynamics of the rack.
They just look at the rack, figure out where the spaces are, and how to beat them, and go ahead and break anyway.

If someone doesn't understand the rack, go out and learn, because more times then not, perfection isn't a part of the equation.
And if someone understands the rack, and still is crying about it, go jump into traffic.

Cory in DC
10-24-2010, 05:49 PM
If only someone could come up with a way to take all the controversy out of the break.....someone must have some good ideas to do this!!!!:(:o:wink::grin-square:

I guess you're talking about the guy who posts on a lot of threads recommending a system that combines (1) randomly placing the balls without looking and (2) the breaker shoots after the break regardless of whether a ball is pocketed or not, as long as he doesn't fall.

That seems overly complicated. If the goal is to reduce pattern racking and rack rigging while increasing the amount of strategy, one idea that came to me a while back is to have the breaker break the rack and then the players flip a coin to see who shoots after the break. You can mechanic up the rack all you want, but it's as likely to help you as hurt you.

Instead, players would probably work on developing a break that tends to leave a tough shot that they are particularly good at.

Note that I'm not recommending this (like alternating break format, it would eliminate the multi-rack packs), but it's one solution that seems likely to take the rack mechanic aspect out of the game.

Cory

UPDATE: Or you could just do what Superstar recommends in the post above this one.

KoolKat9Lives
10-24-2010, 06:11 PM
In past Opens it's been loser racks. It was HORRIBLE last year. The wasted time was ridiculous and pace of play pitiful. Some late matches went to like 3 am.

This year was MUCH better. I liked the winner racks and neutral racker on the last day, and everyone I spoke with liked it also.

Hats off for the decision to change it IMO.

poolnoob
10-24-2010, 10:19 PM
No disrespect, but Sardo wasn't a rack.
Sardo was smashing craters into the table when no one was looking, i.e. prepping the table (aka water dropper and pounding the balls into place), so that you could rack the balls without the sardo gizmo on top of it.
That gizmo was all for show.
The craters kept the balls in place.

Is that a fact? Pretty crappy if it were true...:frown::mad:

cleary
10-24-2010, 10:59 PM
First of all, rack your own is a GREAT IDEA. KEEP IT! But 9 on the break, at least in the bottom to pockets, should not count.

Aside from that, changing the rules for the final day is bad. Tournaments should remain consistent throughout.

I don't so much mind the longer race for finals, but messing with the racking rules is not cool.

JarnoV
10-24-2010, 11:30 PM
First of all, rack your own is a GREAT IDEA. KEEP IT! But 9 on the break, at least in the bottom to pockets, should not count.

I agree. It's smooth and it's fair. But only if 9 on the break doesn't count.

The stuff with the racks in the final day was just too painful to watch and I bet the players didn't like that either.

jay helfert
10-25-2010, 03:32 AM
I just got home two hours ago and it's 3 AM now. It's been a lonnng week and I'm dead tired, but there is no way I can't post on this thread.

All the following is mostly my point of view with some facts thrown in for good measure. First of all, imo opinion "rack your own" is the best way to go in 9-Ball. "Loser racks" can take forever and a day, and lead to some heated debates. "Winner racks" is the lesser of two evils. Ideally we would have referees racking on all the tables, but that just isn't possible, although it was considered this year. We used neutral rackers on the final day because it was possible, and we had three well qualified people to do that job.

There will NEVER be an easy solution for racking the balls in 9-Ball, mainly because of the open configuration of the rack. The best solution we've come up with is to add a ball and make it Ten Ball. Now you have a solid rack with a full back row. Still the very best players (and breakers) will find a way to make balls with any rack. A lot of people don't know that one of Earl's great talents was figuring out the beat break on any given table. He would practice breaking and work things out prior to his match. His break was not the hardest, just the most effective. One reason why Ralf has had so much success in tournaments is his ability to figure out the proper (best) break on the tables being used. And yet no one talks about his powerful break. It just happens to work real well! Funny huh?

I do happen to like the Delta rack. I think it is the best engineered triangle I've seen so far. Diamond's wood triangle is another good one by the way. And I've come to love the Magic rack. But all these racks can be defeated/overcome by the skills (and talent) of today's top players. There has never been a rack genius like Corey and other players have learned a lot from him, mostly by close observation. Once again, in the game of 9-Ball we may never find a way to achieve a "perfect" rack. One change you can expect to see next year in the Open is that the nine ball will not count on the break in the two bottom corner pockets. That cuts out a lot of shenanigans on the rack.

What happened in the Hot Seat match yesterday, was that I had a difficult time getting the one ball to freeze to the first two balls perfectly. No matter how I racked them it still separated by a hair from one ball behind it. And when I say a hair, it was literally maybe a couple of thousandths of an inch from being frozen. No matter, Mika wasn't happy and I did my best to accommodate him. A big mistake on my part and maybe not the best thing for Mika either. I should have done what Bill Stock (an excellent referee) did in the second match, told him to go ahead and break. I allowed Mika too much leeway and it may have been to his detriment, because he lost any momentum he may have had. Mika appeared out of sorts in this match for whatever reason. I'm not sure what was going on with him, but he displayed negative energy from start to finish. And it wasn't just because of the rack either. A big contrast to the last two years when he was focused and very comfortable on the final day. In spite of all this, the match should have gone hill-hill. In that last rack Mika made some beautiful shots (how about that four ball down the rail!) and then missed a relatively easy shot on the seven ball. He just lost focus on that shot and it cost him - DEARLY!

We did try changing the spot, which will often work, but for whatever reason even that didn't help. Bill and Kenny had just as much trouble racking as I did. To his credit Mika did finish third this year, after two wins. Not so bad, imo. He also won the $1,000 high run award, opening with six perfect run-outs in a match on Thursday evening. The $11,000 he picked up this week should do a lot to soothe the pain of losing to Shane.

JarnoV
10-25-2010, 03:45 AM
We used neutral rackers on the final day because it was possible, and we had three well qualified people to do that job.

But what was up with all the hassle about the racks in the final day? Neither of the players seemed to accept the racks they were given and Mika especially seemed unsatisfied with the situation.

I'm pretty sure that no one wants to watch people racking the balls. I understand the players' point of view in that they don't want to get bad racks, but the way it went in the US Open final day isn't what the spectators want to see. That's why magic rack is such a great invention, it takes away the part no one wants to see in a live stream.

jay helfert
10-25-2010, 03:57 AM
But what was up with all the hassle about the racks in the final day? Neither of the players seemed to accept the racks they were given and Mika especially seemed unsatisfied with the situation.

I'm pretty sure that no one wants to watch people racking the balls. I understand the players' point of view in that they don't want to get bad racks, but the way it went in the US Open final day isn't what the spectators want to see. That's why magic rack is such a great invention, it takes away the part no one wants to see in a live stream.

You must have posted this before I finished writing my entire post above. Hopefully that will answer some of your questions.

JarnoV
10-25-2010, 04:01 AM
You must have posted this before I finished writing my entire post above. Hopefully that will answer some of your questions.

Yeah, it appears so. :-)

Tony_in_MD
10-25-2010, 04:02 AM
I agree and I thought I heard Barry in his statements just before the final match, that he was going to make that change in the Open for next year.

9 on the break in the bottom two pockets will not count.

Again I thought I heard this, but by Saturday I was one step from comatose.


First of all, rack your own is a GREAT IDEA. KEEP IT! But 9 on the break, at least in the bottom to pockets, should not count.

Aside from that, changing the rules for the final day is bad. Tournaments should remain consistent throughout.

I don't so much mind the longer race for finals, but messing with the racking rules is not cool.

Phidget
10-25-2010, 06:22 AM
Barry did indeed say they would stay rack your own as this year, and that 9 ball in foot pockets will be spotted based on feedback from players.

whitewolf
10-25-2010, 06:24 AM
I just got home two hours ago and it's 3 AM now. It's been a lonnng week and I'm dead tired, but there is no way I can't post on this thread.

All the following is mostly my point of view with some facts thrown in for good measure. First of all, imo opinion "rack your own" is the best way to go in 9-Ball. "Loser racks" can take forever and a day, and lead to some heated debates. "Winner racks" is the lesser of two evils. Ideally we would have referees racking on all the tables, but that just isn't possible, although it was considered this year. We used neutral rackers on the final day because it was possible, and we had three well qualified people to do that job.

There will NEVER be an easy solution for racking the balls in 9-Ball, mainly because of the open configuration of the rack. The best solution we've come up with is to add a ball and make it Ten Ball. Now you have a solid rack with a full back row. Still the very best players (and breakers) will find a way to make balls with any rack. A lot of people don't know that one of Earl's great talents was figuring out the beat break on any given table. He would practice breaking and work things out prior to his match. His break was not the hardest, just the most effective. One reason why Ralf has had so much success in tournaments is his ability to figure out the proper (best) break on the tables being used. And yet no one talks about his powerful break. It just happens to work real well! Funny huh?

I do happen to like the Delta rack. I think it is the best engineered triangle I've seen so far. Diamond's wood triangle is another good one by the way. And I've come to love the Magic rack. But all these racks can be defeated/overcome by the skills (and talent) of today's top players. There has never been a rack genius like Corey and other players have learned a lot from him, mostly by close observation. Once again, in the game of 9-Ball we may never find a way to achieve a "perfect" rack. One change you can expect to see next year in the Open is that the nine ball will not count on the break in the two bottom corner pockets. That cuts out a lot of shenanigans on the rack.

What happened in the Hot Seat match yesterday, was that I had a difficult time getting the one ball to freeze to the first two balls perfectly. No matter how I racked them it still separated by a hair from one ball behind it. And when I say a hair, it was literally maybe a couple of thousandths of an inch from being frozen. No matter, Mika wasn't happy and I did my best to accommodate him. A big mistake on my part and maybe not the best thing for Mika either. I should have done what Bill Stock (an excellent referee) did in the second match, told him to go ahead and break. I allowed Mika too much leeway and it may have been to his detriment, because he lost any momentum he may have had. Mika appeared out of sorts in this match for whatever reason. I'm not sure what was going on with him, but he displayed negative energy from start to finish. And it wasn't just because of the rack either. A big contrast to the last two years when he was focused and very comfortable on the final day. In spite of all this, the match should have gone hill-hill. In that last rack Mika made some beautiful shots (how about that four ball down the rail!) and then missed a relatively easy shot on the seven ball. He just lost focus on that shot and it cost him - DEARLY!

We did try changing the spot, which will often work, but for whatever reason even that didn't help. Bill and Kenny had just as much trouble racking as I did. To his credit Mika did finish third this year, after two wins. Not so bad, imo. He also won the $1,000 high run award, opening with six perfect run-outs in a match on Thursday evening. The $11,000 he picked up this week should do a lot to soothe the pain of losing to Shane.


I think that it is funny that after all the plugs you have given the Delta Rack, you couldn't get a tight rack with it. On the same note, you have NEVER mentioned using the Sardo Rack again.

I suspect there must be some bad feelings between Barry and Sardo, or something fishy going on. Either that, or everybody is a complete m$#@n.

JarnoV
10-25-2010, 06:46 AM
Barry did indeed say they would stay rack your own as this year, and that 9 ball in foot pockets will be spotted based on feedback from players.

Cool!

I don't understand why any 9-ball on the break should count, but this is way better than what I saw in some matches in this year's US Open. I guess the players agree with it too so it's not just me and some other people at AZ forum whining.

Island Drive
10-25-2010, 06:52 AM
I think that it is funny that after all the plugs you have given the Delta Rack, you couldn't get a tight rack with it. On the same note, you have NEVER mentioned using the Sardo Rack again.

I suspect there must be some bad feelings between Barry and Sardo, or something fishy going on. Either that, or everybody is a complete m$#@n.

When you purchase a set of balls, the tolerances are closer to perfect on the high end sets yet even the balls when brand new there is some leeway, I can't remember but for example, centennials may have a 2-3 thousandths difference to be acceptable, whereas a set of mid grade Belgium balls that are half the price would be 5-7 thousandths and still be acceptable to the mfg. I know a pool room owner that would measure every new set before put into play and if the tolerances were off he would not accept the balls. Maybe next year they could bring in new ball sets every two days and then sell the sets when the event was over. These guys break the balls HARD and I'm sure if one were to measure the balls at the beginning of the week and at the end, the numbers would tell, what would be more interesting now that I'm rambling, how about just measuring the ONE ball, poor guy gets BEAT up all week.

One another note, the idea of spotting up the nine if made in the two foot pockets sounds good, takes allot of power to get the nine Up table.

SUPERSTAR
10-25-2010, 07:46 AM
Is that a fact? Pretty crappy if it were true...:frown::mad:

100% fact.

If it was in use at a tournament they were sponsoring, or at a booth they were exhibiting at, believe me, they were pounding craters into the table before hand.

Just do a search.
Heck, there is a video somewhere of Jeanette Lee rolling a ball through the crater area during a match, and it almost doing a left turn.

Fact is, after the pounding of the craters, you didn't need the rack. ANY rack.
You just put the balls up there and they stayed put.

Aaron_S
10-25-2010, 08:09 AM
I got a kick out of the comments from Mika and Corey in their post-match interviews.

Mika "Well, Corey's break, as goofy as it is, was working."

Corey "I have a lot of respect for Mika... as a player."

Definitely no love lost there.

Eric.
10-25-2010, 09:19 AM
No disrespect, but Sardo wasn't a rack.
Sardo was smashing craters into the table when no one was looking, i.e. prepping the table (aka water dropper and pounding the balls into place), so that you could rack the balls without the sardo gizmo on top of it.
That gizmo was all for show.
The craters kept the balls in place.

SS, that guy Whitewolf/Ray Woodford, loves to spout off without having all the facts.

You are right on about the Sardo rack. I won one, and the instructions tell you to do just that to "treat" the rack area. Those craters can wreck havoc on a game like 14.1.


Eric

whitewolf
10-25-2010, 09:45 AM
When you purchase a set of balls, the tolerances are closer to perfect on the high end sets yet even the balls when brand new there is some leeway, I can't remember but for example, centennials may have a 2-3 thousandths difference to be acceptable, whereas a set of mid grade Belgium balls that are half the price would be 5-7 thousandths and still be acceptable to the mfg. I know a pool room owner that would measure every new set before put into play and if the tolerances were off he would not accept the balls. Maybe next year they could bring in new ball sets every two days and then sell the sets when the event was over. These guys break the balls HARD and I'm sure if one were to measure the balls at the beginning of the week and at the end, the numbers would tell, what would be more interesting now that I'm rambling, how about just measuring the ONE ball, poor guy gets BEAT up all week.

One another note, the idea of spotting up the nine if made in the two foot pockets sounds good, takes allot of power to get the nine Up table.

At home I have Aramith super pros that are at least 5 years old. My Sardo rack gives me a better rack than the Delta rack, every time. Once you push down on the Sardo, say in the US Open, there should be no more complaints that relate to tolerances etc., providing no balls roll off the spot or something. The Sardo Rack TAKES MOST OF THE HUMAN ERROR OUT OF RACKING. Like I said earlier, it's all about money and I believe Barry got a better deal using those STUPID Delta racks.

Vigma balls have tigher tolerance than BiCentennials or Aramiths and are made in China. They play just as well IMHO, even if made out of different material. I know because I have a set of them.

But sponsers are what you have to deal with in tournaments. I am sure that if one were willing to pay $500 for a set of balls the big companies would be willing to make them for the US Open, and others.

jay helfert
10-25-2010, 01:20 PM
I think that it is funny that after all the plugs you have given the Delta Rack, you couldn't get a tight rack with it. On the same note, you have NEVER mentioned using the Sardo Rack again.

I suspect there must be some bad feelings between Barry and Sardo, or something fishy going on. Either that, or everybody is a complete m$#@n.

It was not because of the rack that the front balls wouldn't freeze. It was something in or under the cloth that was causing the problem. It only takes a minute wrinkle or piece of chalk to mess things up. Often times it is the spot that causes these problems. An old spot can develop imperfections.

This is not a perfect science, racking the balls for 9-Ball. I can usually (maybe 99% of the time) put up a near perfect rack. But two days ago was the exception. I still managed to get all the balls frozen, but the rack was a little high and Mika didn't like that either. He wanted to be sure he could make the corner ball.

The racks that he was unhappy about would have been accepted by most (maybe all other) players. Mika just got very fussy and he may have cost himself with the wasted energy. He could still have made the corner ball if he broke them right. He just never found the "sweet" spot.

SUPERSTAR
10-25-2010, 01:32 PM
but the rack was a little high and Mika didn't like that either. He wanted to be sure he could make the corner ball.

The racks that he was unhappy about would have been accepted by most (maybe all other) players. Mika just got very fussy and he may have cost himself with the wasted energy. He could still have made the corner ball if he broke them right. He just never found the "sweet" spot.

Maybe he doesn't think he should have to adapt.

A world champion like Mika doesn't know how to hit the balls a little softer? Seriously?
This is like 1st grade, elementary school pool stuff. And he doesn't know it?

Yet, Corey's break, while working better then Mika's is somehow, "GOOFY"

Unbelievable.

UGETTHE6
10-25-2010, 07:23 PM
Yes, but changing the rules last minute isn't fair. At the players meeting there was no talk of this. And frankly no one has anyhting to say about it except the players. It is b.s. If you are going to do rack your own, two things.

DONT make the 9 count, and DONT touch a ball once you put the balls in the rack. Wiring balls to go off the break is crap, put the balls in the rack, push them up and pull the rack off.

NOW, it is also players responsibility to NOT allow this to happen, so chanllege their rack twice, then the rule was and offical would come over and rack. I saw no one doing this, and frankly alot of people should have.

Raj H. said if he had won the tournament he was going to make a statement that he had just won a racking contest, because until the final 4, it was a racking contest.

I saw a player who wasnt known for their break, make a ball everytime he broke, because he was touching the balls behind the 9. Which makes the wing ball go.

So if they are being ALLOWED to have a racking contest, why not let them continue?

Again, these rules need to be addressed by the players not the AZers. For Berry to NOT allow the players to have a vote on the rack your own rule that was unfair.

Maybe he doesn't think he should have to adapt.

A world champion like Mika doesn't know how to hit the balls a little softer? Seriously?
This is like 1st grade, elementary school pool stuff. And he doesn't know it?

Yet, Corey's break, while working better then Mika's is somehow, "GOOFY"

Unbelievable.

Paul Schofield
10-25-2010, 07:58 PM
Raj H. said if he had won the tournament he was going to make a statement that he had just won a racking contest, because until the final 4, it was a racking contest.

I saw a player who wasnt known for their break, make a ball everytime he broke, because he was touching the balls behind the 9. Which makes the wing ball go.

So if they are being ALLOWED to have a racking contest, why not let them continue?

It just goes on and on, year after year.

There has been no simple method found that simultaneously protects the integrity of the front end of our games and keeps the “ball on the break requirement”. Keep the ball and you own all the crap that goes along with it.

I have a second suggestion. Just get it out in the open and let everyone do what ever they want to do. Everyone brings their own personal racking gadget (Magic, Sardo, Delta, etc.), pattern rack, rack your own, finger and finagle the balls, no rack checking, break and go. Make it all legal. This is better and more honest than what is happening now.

ironman
10-25-2010, 08:14 PM
I thought I heard him say "goofy break"?! I was hoping I heard wrong. If so, Corey outclassed him by not responding and still relating how he respected Mika as a player. Well done Corey! Keeping your cool is what got you this far.

his only 2 friends stayed home trying to do a better job with his little brother

ironman
10-25-2010, 08:19 PM
Haven't read any threads yet but to me it sounds like Mika was counting his money too soon.



Ding ding ding!!!!!!~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Zbotiman
10-25-2010, 10:10 PM
..at the 2010 U.S.Open, were the first 6 days a "rack your own" qualifier for the semi's and the finals? If this was to have been a designated, neutral racking tournament, no-complaints. However, Mika has every right to complain about the tournament not finishing with the "self-racking-rules" it started with!

Even though Appleton, may not have played the absolute best pool of the tournament, his game was consistent and he never faltered in doing what is always most important,
pocketing the balls!!! And better still, the only complaints that were heard, were about his own problems with the situations at the table.
All hail the 2010 U.S.Open champion, Darren Appleton!

BTW, everybody knows that plastic holds a static electric charge (that's why the comb and the piece of paper trick works), also, when a piece of aluminum is powder coated, a static charge is imparted to the aluminum and an opposite charge is given to the powder to hold it on the surface of the aluminum while it's baking. A question for the scientists out there, could it be a coincidence perhaps, that there is a remaining pull on the balls when the rack is taken away?????

jay helfert
10-25-2010, 10:22 PM
Yes, but changing the rules last minute isn't fair. At the players meeting there was no talk of this. And frankly no one has anyhting to say about it except the players. It is b.s. If you are going to do rack your own, two things.

DONT make the 9 count, and DONT touch a ball once you put the balls in the rack. Wiring balls to go off the break is crap, put the balls in the rack, push them up and pull the rack off.

NOW, it is also players responsibility to NOT allow this to happen, so chanllege their rack twice, then the rule was and offical would come over and rack. I saw no one doing this, and frankly alot of people should have.

Raj H. said if he had won the tournament he was going to make a statement that he had just won a racking contest, because until the final 4, it was a racking contest.

I saw a player who wasnt known for their break, make a ball everytime he broke, because he was touching the balls behind the 9. Which makes the wing ball go.

So if they are being ALLOWED to have a racking contest, why not let them continue?

Again, these rules need to be addressed by the players not the AZers. For Berry to NOT allow the players to have a vote on the rack your own rule that was unfair.

This is not the first time the referees have racked for televised matches! It has actually been standard fare for years, where the televised matches have a designated racker. World Pool Championships, World Cup of Pool, Predator International, World Pool Masters, U.S. Open Ten Ball, U.S. Open - ALL this year! In other words, it's common practice in professional pool to have referees racking for televised matches. So this argument is a fallacious one at best.

Racking wars! Please!!! Sounds like sour grapes to me. Take a look at the final eight/sixteen players. All very good players who played well to get as far as they did. I don't like to see someone demeaning the players who played so well all week to make it to the last two days of the Open. The guys who fell by the wayside along the way, did so because of they either missed more balls or played worse safeties/position then their opponents. Or they got a lump in their throat under pressure. Nothing new here either. It was NOT because their opponent was a better racker! Simply put, that's just an excuse for losing.

It's not an accident that Darren, Corey, Mika and Warren reached the final four. They all played consistently good for six days. And handled the pressure cooker that's the Open better than anyone else. And that's the name of that tune. In their heart of hearts, most if not all, the good players who lost matches know that it was their mistakes that cost them. Not because they didn't know how to rack the balls. "Rack your own" is nothing new in pool tournaments. It's been around for years!

LAlouie
10-25-2010, 10:25 PM
Mika is a hall-of-fame crier. Anyone who knows or seen him enough knows this.

Paul Schofield
10-25-2010, 11:04 PM
This is not the first time the referees have racked for televised matches! It has actually been standard fare for years, where the televised matches have a designated racker. World Pool Championships, World Cup of Pool, Predator International, World Pool Masters, U.S. Open Ten Ball, U.S. Open - ALL this year! In other words, it's common practice in professional pool to have referees racking for televised matches. So this argument is a fallacious one at best.

I have read over and over on this forum how racking is a learned skill and is a part of the game. Many players have spent endless hours practicing and focusing on their racking prowess: pattern racking, fingering and finagling the balls, freezing and spacing balls, and the like. These developed skills played a roll in every top finishers climb to the head of the chart. If these skills are desirable and acceptable and a part of every match, why are the skills made moot in the final rounds? It does not look or sound right to me. After all, its part of the game...or shouldn't it be? I mean really...what's it going to be?

It is 2010 and the debate rages on. This is far from settled business. I am with Mika on this one.

westcoast
10-25-2010, 11:48 PM
Mika is a hall-of-fame crier. Anyone who knows or seen him enough knows this.

True, but he is a hall of fame player too. That must be said

LAlouie
10-26-2010, 12:40 AM
True, but he is a hall of fame player too. That must be said

That is a given, He is awesome to watch. But people already know that, and they don't know about his childish behavior at the table.

UGETTHE6
10-26-2010, 06:08 PM
I agree I know that there is a referee racking on televised matches. However, playing this rack your own, changes the game. Yes they have been doing it for years, but consider this "Further Rule" to the racking your own: some have these rules, in place SINCE they do ALLOW rack your own.

***
No 9 on the break.

Alternating the break.

Can't touch a ball after the rack has been lifted.

***

The rack your own speeds up the tournament, however, they emplace the aforementioned rules since they attempted to speed the processes by racking your own.

NOW if we think about this, we rack our own to speed the tournament up. And if it is so professional to DO this racking your own, why did Donnie Mills Stand up at the players’ meeting and make a complaint about it. Why did Mike Segal? Why did over 1/2 the players want to do a vote on the rule?

I have no gripe, the top level pro I played had nice tight racks, and I checked. Also he only made a ball ONCE on the break. So... I knew he was racking properly. That is Steve Moore for those who are wondering. He didn't fondle the rack to try and get a ball to fly in.

So there were racking games going on, and to not admit it, or realize it was happening is just crazy.



This is not the first time the referees have racked for televised matches! It has actually been standard fare for years, where the televised matches have a designated racker. World Pool Championships, World Cup of Pool, Predator International, World Pool Masters, U.S. Open Ten Ball, U.S. Open - ALL this year! In other words, it's common practice in professional pool to have referees racking for televised matches. So this argument is a fallacious one at best.

Racking wars! Please!!! Sounds like sour grapes to me. Take a look at the final eight/sixteen players. All very good players who played well to get as far as they did. I don't like to see someone demeaning the players who played so well all week to make it to the last two days of the Open. The guys who fell by the wayside along the way, did so because of they either missed more balls or played worse safeties/position then their opponents. Or they got a lump in their throat under pressure. Nothing new here either. It was NOT because their opponent was a better racker! Simply put, that's just an excuse for losing.

It's not an accident that Darren, Corey, Mika and Warren reached the final four. They all played consistently good for six days. And handled the pressure cooker that's the Open better than anyone else. And that's the name of that tune. In their heart of hearts, most if not all, the good players who lost matches know that it was their mistakes that cost them. Not because they didn't know how to rack the balls. "Rack your own" is nothing new in pool tournaments. It's been around for years!

poolhustla61508
10-27-2010, 04:10 AM
Mika is on the verge (if he's not there already) of becoming this generations Earl Strickland. He's a monster on the table especially when things are going his way but when one little thing goes wrong all the screws fall off.

I mean no disrespect to either player but if both of them would keep their emotions in check they would be almost unbeatable.

poolnoob
10-27-2010, 05:14 AM
I got a kick out of the comments from Mika and Corey in their post-match interviews.

Mika "Well, Corey's break, as goofy as it is, was working."

Corey "I have a lot of respect for Mika... as a player."

Definitely no love lost there.


Reading between the lines.......

UGETTHE6
10-27-2010, 08:34 PM
I laughed when I saw this... What a good interview! Says everything I said earlier, it was a racking contest... Not a tournamnet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKRj24H0RU4&feature=player_embedded#at=71

ccshrimper
10-27-2010, 09:18 PM
I laughed when I saw this... What a good interview! Says everything I said earlier, it was a racking contest... Not a tournamnet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKRj24H0RU4&feature=player_embedded#at=71

Best interview I've seen in a while.

jay helfert
10-27-2010, 09:34 PM
I laughed when I saw this... What a good interview! Says everything I said earlier, it was a racking contest... Not a tournamnet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKRj24H0RU4&feature=player_embedded#at=71

INCORRECT! Even if you made the wing ball, you still had to drive two more balls past the side pocket (no soft breaks) and get position on the one ball, and then run the other eight balls on a tough table. Funny how even the very best players averaged only 25-30% break and runs in their matches. I guess the other 70-75% of the racks shouldn't be considered.

Diamond vs. Brunswick - re: the claim by Raj that somehow Diamonds are inferior to Brunswick in some way. Wrong! Both are good tables, they just play a little differently. EVERYONE knows that Diamond rails bank a little shorter, and that's about it. If anything, the Diamond pockets are a little tougher, with deeper shelves and tighter pocket angles. You can't cheat those pockets! Funny how the guys who played the best all week were still standing on Friday and Saturday. Guess they just got lucky. :rolleyes:

Racking contest? Hogwash! When they play loser racks is when the real hi-jinks occur. Anyone who has ever been to a tournament has seen the long dramas surrounding the rack when the loser is racking for the winner. By far the lesser of two evils is having the winner rack for himself. Like I said in an earlier post, going to Ten Ball solves a lot of these problems.

Why does this negativity sound so much like sour grapes to me. I watched a lot of pool last week at the Open, and the best players were the ones who missed the fewest balls, played the best safeties and controlled the cue ball the best. The guys who made more errors lost matches, plain and simple. The most effective breaker I saw was Ralf Souquet and it still wasn't enough to assure him of victory. You can make the wing ball all day and all night, but if you can't handle the Open pressure and run the other eight balls, you won't win.

I'm curious UGETTHE6, did you play in the Open? Were you even there?

sfleinen
10-27-2010, 09:41 PM
[...]
I'm curious UGETTHE6, did you play in the Open? Were you even there?

He didn't actually play in the U.S. Open, Jay. But... he did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night!

:D

-Sean

SUPERSTAR
10-27-2010, 09:44 PM
I guess i'd like to see Karen play Raj next and see what happens there.

Only other things i disagree with is some of the breaking issues.

The whole reason the soft break came about is because someone figured out how to make the head ball go in the side when the 9 was racked on the spot, and also figured out how to make the wing ball go in, and control virtually ALL the balls in a normal rack.

And the only reason the cut break came about was because someone wanted to take away the break from the wing and make it break from the box, and people adapted to solve that issue as well.

Taking those away is basically saying, "lets penalize the people who figured it out"
So that the people who didn't figure it out, don't lose to someone who is hitting them like a creampuff and having better results then them.

3andstop
10-27-2010, 10:00 PM
Somebody mentioned Mika said Cory's break was goofy. A classic example of not seeing the forest through the trees.

IMO the whole freaking game is goofy.

But, regardless, I do have a solution to the break problem.

Did you ever see those "Chug a Lug" games with the dice in the metal hour glass shaped cages that you turn over and over. Well ... super size one, put the damned balls in it, turn it a few times and then spill the balls on the table, cue ball included. End of problem.

Island Drive
10-28-2010, 06:45 AM
Condensed vesion of this thread from my view:

Jay had a situation that made racking very difficult.
Rack/break ck TV table before final
Call it the U.S. Open 10 Ball
Rack your own
Ten in the foot pocket spots, all others its a win
Not sure on the ''how many balls to the rail'', players should vote at meeting
Make it race to 9 and 11 in final win by two
Lag for break
New set of balls for the fiinal
Use existing cloth/do not change cloth on any table during the week of play (not that this was said)

Or plan B:

Make up a list of rules and have all players vote on what's best.

Someone had mentioned that allot of PGA courses are now 1000 yards longer than in the past, because of that here's my opinion.

9 ball is to me officially ''BROKEN'' as a pro rotation/tournament game. Pros need a reliable sport/product to bring their best game to the table.

sfleinen
10-28-2010, 06:59 AM
Condensed vesion of this thread from my view:

Jay had a situation that made racking very difficult.
Rack/break ck TV table before final
Call it the U.S. Open 10 Ball
Rack your own
Ten in the foot pocket spots, all others its a win
Not sure on the ''how many balls to the rail'', players should vote at meeting
Make it race to 9 and 11 in final win by two
Lag for break
New set of balls for the fiinal
Use existing cloth/do not change cloth on any table during the week of play (not that this was said)

Or plan B:

Make up a list of rules and have all players vote on what's best.

Someone had mentioned that allot of PGA courses are now 1000 yards longer than in the past, because of that here's my opinion.

9 ball is to me officially ''BROKEN'' as a pro rotation/tournament game. Pros need a reliable sport/product to bring their best game to the table.

Island Drive:

Concerning the bolded part above, I agree! I summarized a list of the BandAids that've been applied over the last couple of years to "patch" the broken game of 9-ball, and I was surprised at the size of the list, even merely rolling them off the cuff (read: I probably even missed a few):

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=2679246#post2679246

We can try to defend 9-ball all we want, but when you look at that list, it's pretty obvious that the game of 9-ball is just a duct-taped, twisted-coat-hanger-strapped game holding on by its fingernails these days. And yet, we *still* have people wanting to patch it, e.g. with "No Conflict" rules where the requirement to make a ball on the break is removed!

The "9-ball, The Video Game" cheat-sheet memorizing has got to go. Time for graduation to 10-ball, WPA rules.

IMHO,
-Sean

DogsPlayingPool
10-28-2010, 08:11 AM
Condensed vesion of this thread from my view:

Jay had a situation that made racking very difficult.
Rack/break ck TV table before final
Call it the U.S. Open 10 Ball
Rack your own
Ten in the foot pocket spots, all others its a win
Not sure on the ''how many balls to the rail'', players should vote at meeting
Make it race to 9 and 11 in final win by two
Lag for break
New set of balls for the fiinal
Use existing cloth/do not change cloth on any table during the week of play (not that this was said)

Or plan B:

Make up a list of rules and have all players vote on what's best.

Someone had mentioned that allot of PGA courses are now 1000 yards longer than in the past, because of that here's my opinion.

9 ball is to me officially ''BROKEN'' as a pro rotation/tournament game. Pros need a reliable sport/product to bring their best game to the table.

The problem is if Barry wishes to continue calling it the US Open he is stuck with 9 Ball since Mark Griffin owns the US Open 10 Ball Championship. :)

Island Drive
10-28-2010, 08:23 AM
The problem is if Barry wishes to continue calling it the US Open he is stuck with 9 Ball since Mark Griffin owns the US Open 10 Ball Championship. :)

Then just call it the US Open...

Johnnyt
10-28-2010, 08:53 AM
Wasn't the refs racking the balls in the semi and finals a last minute change? Johnnyt

SCCues
10-28-2010, 12:38 PM
Is it slowing play, the score update seems to be really slow. Taking over 10 minutes per game

The time spent trying to get the rack right was brutal for the players and the spectators. I think the players should have racked for themselves like they did for the whole tournament until the last few matches. I don't know whose idea it was to use a neutral racker the last day, but if they were using a neutral racker the players shouldn't have been allowed to come up and challenge every rack which caused the racker to have to start over and over trying to get an acceptable rack for the players. I was present watching and of all the US Opens i've been to this was the first time i've seen so much time wasted racking the balls.

The neutral racker would rack the balls and let the player inspect every possible crack and the re-racking began over and over. It was so bad that Accu-stats started stopping the video between games and waiting for the balls to be acceptably racked before they turned the video cameras back on. I hope that they come up with something different next year because taking that much time to rack the balls takes a lot away from the play and enjoying the matches.......

James

DogsPlayingPool
10-28-2010, 01:23 PM
I'm sure the folks at Delta were none too happy with all the perceived racking problems either.

UGETTHE6
10-28-2010, 03:00 PM
I did play, I was there all week. I left Thursday to go see family however...

You are right about making the balls past the side pocket, but you can wire the rack to hit it harder and make that wing ball and still have 3 balls past the side pocket. I saw anouther good racker do it 8-9 times and he had 4 balls past the side pocket!

WHen you are running out 7-8 balls everytime, any of those top players could win. Now, I wasnt saying that effected my showing at the open. The top guy I played racked right broke hard, and never made a ball on the break...

I was simply agreeing that, changing the rules on those guys at the last minute wasn't fair. If they continued their RACKING GAMES, Appleton, might not have won. MIGHT.

So with that being said I agree with Mika's comments and his attitude towards the whole ordeal. IMHO



INCORRECT! Even if you made the wing ball, you still had to drive two more balls past the side pocket (no soft breaks) and get position on the one ball, and then run the other eight balls on a tough table. Funny how even the very best players averaged only 25-30% break and runs in their matches. I guess the other 70-75% of the racks shouldn't be considered.

Diamond vs. Brunswick - re: the claim by Raj that somehow Diamonds are inferior to Brunswick in some way. Wrong! Both are good tables, they just play a little differently. EVERYONE knows that Diamond rails bank a little shorter, and that's about it. If anything, the Diamond pockets are a little tougher, with deeper shelves and tighter pocket angles. You can't cheat those pockets! Funny how the guys who played the best all week were still standing on Friday and Saturday. Guess they just got lucky. :rolleyes:

Racking contest? Hogwash! When they play loser racks is when the real hi-jinks occur. Anyone who has ever been to a tournament has seen the long dramas surrounding the rack when the loser is racking for the winner. By far the lesser of two evils is having the winner rack for himself. Like I said in an earlier post, going to Ten Ball solves a lot of these problems.

Why does this negativity sound so much like sour grapes to me. I watched a lot of pool last week at the Open, and the best players were the ones who missed the fewest balls, played the best safeties and controlled the cue ball the best. The guys who made more errors lost matches, plain and simple. The most effective breaker I saw was Ralf Souquet and it still wasn't enough to assure him of victory. You can make the wing ball all day and all night, but if you can't handle the Open pressure and run the other eight balls, you won't win.

I'm curious UGETTHE6, did you play in the Open? Were you even there?

UGETTHE6
10-28-2010, 03:03 PM
I don't think they are upset about it Terry knows he makes the best product out there, and I think it is the prefered rack by many!... However, I see alot of people playing with the Magic Rack, now there's an idea!

Magic Rack and you have to break over 20 MPH and have the break speeds clocked, you go under 20 MPH its ball in hand for the opponent!

Hmm...

I'm sure the folks at Delta were none too happy with all the perceived racking problems either.

DogsPlayingPool
10-28-2010, 03:33 PM
I don't think they are upset about it Terry knows he makes the best product out there, and I think it is the prefered rack by many!... However, I see alot of people playing with the Magic Rack, now there's an idea!

Magic Rack and you have to break over 20 MPH and have the break speeds clocked, you go under 20 MPH its ball in hand for the opponent!

Hmm...

Yeah, I didn't mean it as a dump on the Delta by any means. I have one and like it. I'm just thinking that as a sponsor of the "official" rack, it just doesn't look good on the stream to see the players struggling to get a good rack with your gear - even if it was the table's fault.

poolhustla61508
10-29-2010, 03:47 AM
I'm sick of hearing all the whining and complaining about the rack/break in 9 ball. If all these players have that big of an issue stick to playing straight pool or one pocket. In most if not all rotation games there is a big luck factor off of the break and also alot of luck in pool in general.

I agree with whoever said that the best players are still going to be there in the end because there going to make the least amount of mistakes and thats what wins matches.