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Centerpunch
10-24-2010, 12:22 PM
Why is it that when shooting with ld shafts one goes through periods they can't pocket a ball if their life depended on it. That one would be me.
Isn't the margin of error less? I can use my good ol' trusty solid maple shafts and be right back in the swing of things.
Yet I keep trying and go back to my ld's.
Just wondering if anyone else experiences this also. And yet I can't just give up using them, they do "appear" to assist in making some great shots and giving me fantastic position.
Then it's always the shot that shouldn't be missed, yet I miss rediculously and could swear I hit it perfect.:rolleyes:

fastford
10-24-2010, 04:05 PM
I had simulor results except I. Went from a z2 to a older 314 and I improved in my consisity of pocketing balls. I do not know if the little fatter shaft helped or if it was just a mental issue.

cheapcues.com
10-24-2010, 04:14 PM
For your standard every day run-of-the-mill shots the bigger the tip the greater your margin for error.

fastford
10-24-2010, 05:18 PM
For your standard every day run-of-the-mill shots the bigger the tip the greater your margin for error.

For me it worked the other way around

poolplayer2093
10-24-2010, 06:02 PM
For me it worked the other way around

i used to be the same way. now i really prefer thicket tips.

cheapcues.com
10-24-2010, 10:41 PM
For me it worked the other way around

Cool! the laws of physics must not apply where you live.

fastford
10-24-2010, 10:53 PM
Cool! the laws of physics must not apply where you live.

Pretty neat huh? When I switched to the bigger shaft I was-am more consistent then with the thinner of the two. I can play with the z2 but when I'm on I'm on and when I'm off I'm WAY off but with the 314 if I'm off I can get back instroke. Maybe it is a mental issue or I duno but it works.

Atomic Playboy
10-25-2010, 04:42 AM
Pretty neat huh? When I switched to the bigger shaft I was-am more consistent then with the thinner of the two. I can play with the z2 but when I'm on I'm on and when I'm off I'm WAY off but with the 314 if I'm off I can get back instroke. Maybe it is a mental issue or I duno but it works.

It's because the smaller diameter tip is going to be less forgiving of errors in your stroke. If you aren't in stroke, the smaller tip of the z2 will magnify the minutest of tip placement issues. That's probably what you're experiencing with the more forgiving nature of the larger tip diameter in the 314. For what it's worth, I feel the same way, though my issue with the z2 stems from my dislike of the straight taper; I don't bridge as cleanly with it, and thus any mistakes in my stroke are magnified.

Vahmurka
10-26-2010, 05:13 AM
For me it worked the other way aroundthat's the way it is supposed to be really. The smaller the tip, the harder to hit the center.

Cool! the laws of physics must not apply where you live.
could you elaborate on that? Which physics applies to your area?

mosconiac
10-26-2010, 06:39 AM
I REALLY want to see a detailed argument that proves tip diameter effects accuracy. Please take a moment to explain this theory of physics. The diameters we are talking about are 11.75mm (Z2 & OB2) to 13mm (typical for a new, traditional shaft)...that's barely a 10% difference.

Bambu
10-26-2010, 06:49 AM
This issue should be more about preference than physics laws. There are guys that can play great with thin shafts, fat shafts, L/D, and everything in between. Give the shaft a fair chance, and make your decisions based on your own results. All you will get from others are mixed opinions.

Bamacues
10-26-2010, 07:19 AM
The difference is primarily in the quality of the stroke, not in the shaft diameter.

If you have a good, clean stroke and can hit dead center (or any other spot) exactly when and as you want, then the thinner shaft may be what you want.

If your stroke is off, even in the most minute amount, that will be magnified by the thinner shaft, leading to much more spin than desired, missed shots, etc.

A 1mm difference in shaft size makes a lot of difference, especially when you have poor aim or stroke.

As for missing with low-deflection shafts versus solid maple, I know a lot of players who have gone back to good, solid maple shafts and have tossed the "low-deflection" shafts. It is really tough to beat a top quality custom shaft made from a good piece of wood.

Joe

nksmfamjp
10-26-2010, 07:48 AM
I REALLY want to see a detailed argument that proves tip diameter effects accuracy. Please take a moment to explain this theory of physics. The diameters we are talking about are 11.75mm (Z2 & OB2) to 13mm (typical for a new, traditional shaft)...that's barely a 10% difference.

I had to green this post. I ain't no rocket scientist myself(but I did work at a rocket motor maker!), but I gotta label this one as possible BS!! :slap:

mdavis228
10-26-2010, 08:24 AM
It will make a difference if you're not as consistent with your tip position contact on the cue ball. You can get unexpected spin velocity with a smaller tip if you aren't careful. You can have the same issue with a larger tip, of course - but not to quite the same extent.

9 on the snap
10-26-2010, 09:29 AM
I like regular maple. On my pancakes too!:D

CocoboloCowboy
10-26-2010, 10:00 AM
Why is it that when shooting with ld shafts one goes through periods they can't pocket a ball if their life depended on it. That one would be me.
Isn't the margin of error less? I can use my good ol' trusty solid maple shafts and be right back in the swing of things.
Yet I keep trying and go back to my ld's.
Just wondering if anyone else experiences this also. And yet I can't just give up using them, they do "appear" to assist in making some great shots and giving me fantastic position.
Then it's always the shot that shouldn't be missed, yet I miss rediculously and could swear I hit it perfect.:rolleyes:

IMHO we all go thought Hot & Cold Periods. I personally do not attribute this to Equipment but to the HUMAN FACTOR. Unless you are a TOP PLAYER, who always Plays at the Top Performance, you are just a person like 90% ++ of the Pool Player, one who goes through Hot & Cold Streaks.

The Great Willie Hoppie, and Willie Mosconi never played with LD Shafts, or New fangled hi tech equipment, but because of there ability, and consistency, always player GREAT. JMHO.

Also some will say but Hoppie, and Mosconi played on LOOSE POCKET Tables, and I say YES but they also Played on 5 x 10's, and 6 x 12's. Not Bar Boxes, and 4.5 x 9.0's

12squared
10-26-2010, 10:39 AM
Why is it that when shooting with ld shafts one goes through periods they can't pocket a ball if their life depended on it. That one would be me.
Isn't the margin of error less? I can use my good ol' trusty solid maple shafts and be right back in the swing of things.
Yet I keep trying and go back to my ld's.
Just wondering if anyone else experiences this also. And yet I can't just give up using them, they do "appear" to assist in making some great shots and giving me fantastic position.
Then it's always the shot that shouldn't be missed, yet I miss rediculously and could swear I hit it perfect.:rolleyes:

Here's my take on this (for what it's worth): If you are always hitting center ball than it's you & your lack of consistent stroke - the LD shafts would have no effect, benefit or detriment. If that's not the case, it may be because some days you are putting more spin on the cueball then others and that WILL make a difference in pocketing balls using a LD shaft vs. your maple shaft.

Yes, LD shafts reduce or come close to eliminating squirt off the cueball initially, but it does not avoid the swerve (or whatever the heck it's called). So depending on the distance of the object ball, the speed you hit it, and how much spin you apply, that will definitely affect your ball pocketing. In other words, if you are hitting a shot hard with spin, you can shoot right at the target because no time for the swerve, but if you hit the same shot slower, you would need to know what the adjustment would need to be. You basically have to relearn everything you knew before, or at least apply it differently.

If I was playing more and wanted to compete, I think I would learn to play with the OB classic, I like the feel the best of the ones I've tried, but I am not willing to retool my game to adjust for the lack of initial squirt I am used to. In fact when playing 1-pocket, which I spin the ball a lot at slow speeds, it drove me nuts.

This has only been my experience so take it all with a grain of salt. Hope it helps a little.

dave

cheapcues.com
10-26-2010, 10:59 PM
I had to green this post. I ain't no rocket scientist myself(but I did work at a rocket motor maker!), but I gotta label this one as possible BS!! :slap:

Bama had it right on. When the tip diameter is smaller, if you miss your mark by a certain amount left or right the angle the cue ball comes off at and the amount of spin are both exaggerated. I know it seems like a small difference but it's enough to have a big impact. Sometimes it helps to think in exaggerated terms. Imagine a baseball player trying to hit a home run. His round bat has to contact the round ball within a certain few degrees of the line running through the centers in order to get the correct launch angle. That ANGLE is the same regardless of the diameter of the bat, however the amount of DISTANCE in the y axis is greatly affected by the diameter of the bat. For a normal sized bat it's probably a half an inch in either direction. But what if his bat were the size of a pencil? Now he as to be accurate within fractions of a millimeter.

If you are aiming an inch left of the center line on a shot, the smaller the tip size, and also the smaller the curvature- i.e. a dime radius vs. a nickel radius, the more your miss will be exaggerated if you are off that one inch left of center target. If your stroke is perfect and you hit your spot every time- God bless you, go get a cue with a 10mm shaft.

Yes, a ton of it is mental. Yes, there are lots of other factors in play and often the lower deflection will help, but from a strictly Newtonian physics standpoint a smaller tip exaggerates your misses.

Masayoshi
10-26-2010, 11:15 PM
IMHO we all go thought Hot & Cold Periods. I personally do not attribute this to Equipment but to the HUMAN FACTOR. Unless you are a TOP PLAYER, who always Plays at the Top Performance, you are just a person like 90% ++ of the Pool Player, one who goes through Hot & Cold Streaks.

The Great Willie Hoppie, and Willie Mosconi never played with LD Shafts, or New fangled hi tech equipment, but because of there ability, and consistency, always player GREAT. JMHO.

Also some will say but Hoppie, and Mosconi played on LOOSE POCKET Tables, and I say YES but they also Played on 5 x 10's, and 6 x 12's. Not Bar Boxes, and 4.5 x 9.0's

I believe you are mistaken, Willie Hoppe played on NO POCKET tables.

Rod
10-27-2010, 12:07 AM
Here's my take on this (for what it's worth): If you are always hitting center ball than it's you & your lack of consistent stroke - the LD shafts would have no effect, benefit or detriment. If that's not the case, it may be because some days you are putting more spin on the cueball then others and that WILL make a difference in pocketing balls using a LD shaft vs. your maple shaft.

Yes, LD shafts reduce or come close to eliminating squirt off the cueball initially, but it does not avoid the swerve (or whatever the heck it's called). So depending on the distance of the object ball, the speed you hit it, and how much spin you apply, that will definitely affect your ball pocketing. In other words, if you are hitting a shot hard with spin, you can shoot right at the target because no time for the swerve, but if you hit the same shot slower, you would need to know what the adjustment would need to be. You basically have to relearn everything you knew before, or at least apply it differently.

If I was playing more and wanted to compete, I think I would learn to play with the OB classic, I like the feel the best of the ones I've tried, but I am not willing to retool my game to adjust for the lack of initial squirt I am used to. In fact when playing 1-pocket, which I spin the ball a lot at slow speeds, it drove me nuts.

This has only been my experience so take it all with a grain of salt. Hope it helps a little.

dave

I think your right on the money. I bought a 314-2 over a year ago and it was a hassle at best. This year I decided to try it again because I was having trouble adjusting for follow shots with side english. Now follow shots are fairly simple but draw is a pain. I over cut long slow draw shots with side. Keeping the cue more level helps, speed helps and using less side helps. Overall I'm starting to like it more but I have to remember to adjust.

With a reg shaft squirt and swerve balance each other out. If I let up on a side english draw stroke with a reg shaft I may still make the ball. With the pred I'm sure to over cut the hell out of it. Playing one hole it has advantages but I need more time to adjust for slow speed spin shots as you noted. The one thing I miss is my fatter shaft with a conical taper. It way more solid and comfortable. I like the fuller feeling in my fingers.

Another thing to note is equipment and conditions. Older worn ball sets seem to curve more. I think is more table friction due to condition of the balls. More friction, more swerve etc. Of course older dirty cloth adds more friction as well. I mean cloth can only handle the oil from so many cheeseburgers and fries. LOL

I think the OP needs to find the real reason for missed shots. We all miss shots but most good players know why. If you don't know why then you don't know what to correct. Usually it stroke mechanics or you moved on the shot or your alignment needs work, no matter what shaft you use.

Rod

12squared
10-28-2010, 08:21 AM
I think your right on the money. I bought a 314-2 over a year ago and it was a hassle at best. This year I decided to try it again because I was having trouble adjusting for follow shots with side english. Now follow shots are fairly simple but draw is a pain. I over cut long slow draw shots with side. Keeping the cue more level helps, speed helps and using less side helps. Overall I'm starting to like it more but I have to remember to adjust.

With a reg shaft squirt and swerve balance each other out. If I let up on a side english draw stroke with a reg shaft I may still make the ball. With the pred I'm sure to over cut the hell out of it. Playing one hole it has advantages but I need more time to adjust for slow speed spin shots as you noted. The one thing I miss is my fatter shaft with a conical taper. It way more solid and comfortable. I like the fuller feeling in my fingers.

Another thing to note is equipment and conditions. Older worn ball sets seem to curve more. I think is more table friction due to condition of the balls. More friction, more swerve etc. Of course older dirty cloth adds more friction as well. I mean cloth can only handle the oil from so many cheeseburgers and fries. LOL

I think the OP needs to find the real reason for missed shots. We all miss shots but most good players know why. If you don't know why then you don't know what to correct. Usually it stroke mechanics or you moved on the shot or your alignment needs work, no matter what shaft you use.

Rod

I concur w/your additional info about conditions playing a big role in the outcome :). I just hope the OP has had a chance to read what we wrote...or did he just give up because the thread went a little sideways from his original question. Thanks.

dr_dave
10-28-2010, 08:29 AM
Here's my take on this (for what it's worth): If you are always hitting center ball than it's you & your lack of consistent stroke - the LD shafts would have no effect, benefit or detriment. If that's not the case, it may be because some days you are putting more spin on the cueball then others and that WILL make a difference in pocketing balls using a LD shaft vs. your maple shaft.

Yes, LD shafts reduce or come close to eliminating squirt off the cueball initially, but it does not avoid the swerve (or whatever the heck it's called). So depending on the distance of the object ball, the speed you hit it, and how much spin you apply, that will definitely affect your ball pocketing. In other words, if you are hitting a shot hard with spin, you can shoot right at the target because no time for the swerve, but if you hit the same shot slower, you would need to know what the adjustment would need to be. You basically have to relearn everything you knew before, or at least apply it differently.

If I was playing more and wanted to compete, I think I would learn to play with the OB classic, I like the feel the best of the ones I've tried, but I am not willing to retool my game to adjust for the lack of initial squirt I am used to. In fact when playing 1-pocket, which I spin the ball a lot at slow speeds, it drove me nuts.

This has only been my experience so take it all with a grain of salt. Hope it helps a little.Good post!

An LD shaft reduces squirt (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/squirt.html), but it has absolutely no effect on swerve (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/swerve.html). Both most be compensated for (along with throw (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/throw.html)) to use English effectively.

LD shafts have both advantages and disadvantages for different people. For people who are interested, many are listed, along with additional resources, here:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/cue.html#low_squirt

Regards,
Dave

Centerpunch
10-30-2010, 12:52 PM
I concur w/your additional info about conditions playing a big role in the outcome :). I just hope the OP has had a chance to read what we wrote...or did he just give up because the thread went a little sideways from his original question. Thanks.

Just got back to reading the responses. Thanks for the input!
I believe I keep subconciously adjusting for squirt and in addition apply english for shape on my next shot.
I'm not really sure though. It's probably the "pool gods" bringing me back to reality:smile:.
This past week I have gone back to my regular shaft and am shooting more consistant. I just need to accept ld or reg. shaft and stay with it.
For some reason I keep going back to the LD. Just like the hit.