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View Full Version : "DON'T TOUCH THAT" rule BCA


Porter
04-21-2003, 07:21 AM
I had a rule that came up in a BCA team tournement Saturday that I need some help on.

8 Ball, I am shooting and have a couple of options on how to get out, so I call time out and ask another player on my team, my 'designated coach' as I understand it, his opinion. We discuss the options and as he is leaving the table the other player says "foul, he touched the table." I did not see the touch. And it did not in anyway effect the game or how I planned to shoot. This team has been known to call this foul before. Needless to say I was hot. I could not call the league director because he plays on the other team. I asked my apponent who I respect, and is a friend, to decide what he wants to call. Foul or not? The presure from his teammates made his mind up. "Foul I guess" he said. I paused for a second and then broke my stick down and forfieted the game. A 10-0 turned into a 4-10. 16 point swing, ouch. We are all friends, This has happened before and will probably happen again.

I know I should have finished the game. But my principles would not let me. I play very little team pool and regret it for my team because we lose the match, it was close. We were playing for 2nd and 3rd.

What would have happened if I had just said "I did not see it" and it was my word against his? But it probably did happen.
Does that tie goes to the shooter rule aply here? Who would have made such a call with the league director on the other team?

What is the actual reading of this rule, and how would you see it in relation to my situation. I am not a pool referee but I have officiated in baseball, hockey and other sports. There has always been a clause in the manuals that addresses the questionable calls. On a protest or appealled call it advises the official to ask himself this question first. Did the action have an effect on the outcome of the play. Is there such a directive in pool referees training manuals.

As I see this rule, it was written to keep a third party (coach) from creating an unfair advantage, like showing a player where to hit the rail on a kick shot. In this case the other player has twisted the rule to give himself an unfair advantage and steal the table.

TY

RP

hustlefinger
04-21-2003, 09:15 AM
If this were just a causal touch along the way back to his seat, I’d say its nit picking. And I’d be pissed off too.

However, if this rule IS written down somewhere, then you and your coach should have known about it, IMO. Also having the league director on the other team, he should be able to clear up any misunderstandings and provide a copy of the rules. And I think quitting the match was a poor decision, you didn’t commit a foul and it wasn’t your fault.

Rick

jjinfla
04-21-2003, 09:34 AM
You don't say how, or where he touched the table. I had a pro tell me that on a shot where you are sending the OB past the side pocket a player might press the rail on the side of the pocket so it is out of the way as the ball goes by and he told me that is a foul. But if it is a foul and you were called on it, and evidently everybody agreed that it was a foul, why did you quit the match? Jake

Skeezicks
04-21-2003, 11:04 AM
First, you gotta get a league rule book. Then you must learn the rules. Then, if an opponent calls a foul that doesn't sound familiar, have him point out the rule in the book.

jjinfla
04-21-2003, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by Skeezicks
First, you gotta get a league rule book. Then you must learn the rules. Then, if an opponent calls a foul that doesn't sound familiar, have him point out the rule in the book.

You expect pool players to think logically? And be able to read a rule book? Or even be able to afford to buy one? That's four beers! LOL Jake

Porter
04-21-2003, 02:47 PM
The rule says touching the table by the coach during a time out is a foul and ball in hand. He touched it as he rounded the corner walking back to set down, away from the shot. I didn't even see it happen. O well, beers on me... LOL

jjinfla
04-21-2003, 06:14 PM
When the book refers to touching the table does that just mean the cloth? Or any part of it? And the four beers refers to how many beers one can buy instead of buying a rule book. All costs were expressed in terms of beers when I was younger. Jake

Craig Arnold
05-10-2004, 08:25 PM
I had a rule that came up in a BCA team tournement Saturday that I need some help on.

8 Ball, I am shooting and have a couple of options on how to get out, so I call time out and ask another player on my team, my 'designated coach' as I understand it, his opinion. We discuss the options and as he is leaving the table the other player says "foul, he touched the table." I did not see the touch. And it did not in anyway effect the game or how I planned to shoot. This team has been known to call this foul before. Needless to say I was hot. I could not call the league director because he plays on the other team. I asked my apponent who I respect, and is a friend, to decide what he wants to call. Foul or not? The presure from his teammates made his mind up. "Foul I guess" he said. I paused for a second and then broke my stick down and forfieted the game. A 10-0 turned into a 4-10. 16 point swing, ouch. We are all friends, This has happened before and will probably happen again.

I know I should have finished the game. But my principles would not let me. I play very little team pool and regret it for my team because we lose the match, it was close. We were playing for 2nd and 3rd.

What would have happened if I had just said "I did not see it" and it was my word against his? But it probably did happen.
Does that tie goes to the shooter rule aply here? Who would have made such a call with the league director on the other team?

What is the actual reading of this rule, and how would you see it in relation to my situation. I am not a pool referee but I have officiated in baseball, hockey and other sports. There has always been a clause in the manuals that addresses the questionable calls. On a protest or appealled call it advises the official to ask himself this question first. Did the action have an effect on the outcome of the play. Is there such a directive in pool referees training manuals.

As I see this rule, it was written to keep a third party (coach) from creating an unfair advantage, like showing a player where to hit the rail on a kick shot. In this case the other player has twisted the rule to give himself an unfair advantage and steal the table.

TY

RP


First of all BCA (or World Standardized Rules) do not allow coaching therefore this is a local league variation in the rules. Such rules should be printed by your league operator and distributed to each captain before league play begins. Also under BCA offering assitance to a player is a foul. Therefore if the person you were playing against receives assitance from anyone it is a foul. Therefore the opposing teams actions of proding the player was a foul. Again local league rules superceed. Your league operator should have volunteered information on the rules to show impartiality and fairness in my opinion. Most players, like your self want to win fairly with no special consideration. Rules should level the playing field not give unfair advantage.

In APA where coaching exists, the coach may not touch the table or a ball intentionally in any way while at the table with the hand. It varies from operator to operator but most will call incidental contact because it is hard to judge intent.

You have to know your area rules. Your intuition of effecting the outcome of the shot reference is a good one and one I ask myself in conditions of inturpriting a rules meaning. Also that a tie goes to shooter...

Craig, BCA National Referee

Cue of Fury
05-10-2004, 08:32 PM
He touched it as he rounded the corner walking back to set down, away from the shot.
IMO that is not a foul as it was clearly after the coaching session, was totally incidental, and in no way benefitted you.

westcoast
05-10-2004, 11:23 PM
Quit the stupid league. It's like a cop giving you a speeding ticket for going 1 mile above the speed limit. I guess there are assholes in all walks of life.

Celtic
05-10-2004, 11:39 PM
Coaching is a foul anyhow in any normal rule set, including the BCA. As the above coach said, you are playing under some odd local rules and therefore you cannot get any help on this board about some local bastardization of the normal BCA rules. I can tell you, try to use a "designated coach" in the BCA tourney in Vegas and you will be giving up ball in hand every time, whether he touches the table or not. My advice is to go to the person that runs your league and tell them to use the proper BCA rules for league play.

MikeCor
05-11-2004, 06:21 AM
I know I'd be incredibly proud of a victory I got by getting a ball in hand for calling a foul on someone touching the table. Is there no such thing as honour anymore? Are people really that desperate to win a game? :rolleyes:

longhair
05-11-2004, 06:40 AM
In APA where coaching exists, the coach may not touch the table or a ball intentionally in any way while at the table with the hand. It varies from operator to operator but most will call incidental contact because it is hard to judge intent.


Craig, BCA National Referee
In our local APA league, a coach can not only touch the table, s(he) can place the cueball when it is in hand. I think this is the new national rule.

There is always at least one team in our league that will take advantage of the rules. I lost a game in the first match I ever played in the APA because I pointed at the pocket in which I played the 8ball instead of putting a marker down. :rolleyes:

That said, if a tournament teamate of mine gave up a game because of a bad call, I would be very upset. I can certainly see doing this when it's your money, but not when there are others involved. This reminds me of a player in a nearby town. He is a very strong local player and could win any tournament he enters, but no-one will buy him in a calcutta because if he loses his first match he might just leave. No heart, no respect. (Porter, I don't mean that you have no respect. I wasn't there and couldn't try to judge.)