PDA

View Full Version : Why Don't Some Of The pros put on tournaments?


Johnnyt
03-27-2011, 07:13 AM
Most of the top pros gamble head to head and/or play in ring games with other pros. Being that there are not enough pro tournaments and sponsors to add money, why don't a pro or 2 from each state put on mini tournaments with hight entry fee? 16 players paying in $250- $500 makes for some nice top 6 pay-outs. There would be a total of $4000-$8000 up for grabs. The only reason I can think of is most of them just want to play when they have the nuts. Johnnyt

macguy
03-27-2011, 07:39 AM
Most of the top pros gamble head to head and/or play in ring games with other pros. Being that there are not enough pro tournaments and sponsors to add money, why don't a pro or 2 from each state put on mini tournaments with hight entry fee? 16 players paying in $250- $500 makes for some nice top 6 pay-outs. There would be a total of $4000-$8000 up for grabs. The only reason I can think of is most of them just want to play when they have the nuts. Johnnyt

I think as most pros sit around waiting for their worlds to change or someone to hand them a bone. What they don't realize is it is within their own grasp to make change happen. You can't really change the world but can certainly change your own world and take a few others along with you. For example, any player or room owner for that matter can do monthly challenge matches that can also be streamed. Two or four players head to head or ring games etc. By themselves these are not big events but will benefit at least a few and provide the public with the feeling something is going on in the sport. There are plenty of ideas.

CreeDo
03-27-2011, 07:39 AM
You think they don't do this because they lack the heart? Maybe they'd rather play one worldbeater for 10k than 6 of them for 4k.

Bob Jewett
03-27-2011, 08:36 AM
Most of the top pros gamble head to head and/or play in ring games with other pros. Being that there are not enough pro tournaments and sponsors to add money, why don't a pro or 2 from each state put on mini tournaments with high entry fee? 16 players paying in $250- $500 makes for some nice top 6 pay-outs. There would be a total of $4000-$8000 up for grabs. The only reason I can think of is most of them just want to play when they have the nuts. Johnnyt
How does this transfer money from people-who-are-not-pro-players into the pros' pockets? Unless you get money from sponsors or the gate, the players do not come out ahead on average. In most tournaments today, the also-rans donate to the champs. That's also a shaky funding model.

Another problem is that an organized event will involve 1099s.

JoeyA
03-27-2011, 09:04 AM
It costs MONEY to put on tournaments. Successful tournaments take lots of planning and coordination. It also takes volunteers like tournament directors and other support people. Also the pro players do not want the hassle of promoting and directing a pool tournament.

In spite of the recent efforts in rule changes to make it impossible for a top amateur player to win a match against a top professional player, the pro players need the "donations" of the lesser players to fill the pot. Even so, as one of the lesser players, I feel honored to have the opportunity to make my contributions whenever I can.

I'm sure MOST players, not just the pros, like getting the nuts. :D

JoeyA

JoeyA
03-27-2011, 09:10 AM
I think as most pros sit around waiting for their worlds to change or someone to hand them a bone. What they don't realize is it is within their own grasp to make change happen. You can't really change the world but can certainly change your own world and take a few others along with you. For example, any player or room owner for that matter can do monthly challenge matches that can also be streamed. Two or four players head to head or ring games etc. By themselves these are not big events but will benefit at least a few and provide the public with the feeling something is going on in the sport. There are plenty of ideas.

I like your post A LOT!

There are people in virtually every pool room who would volunteer their time to help pro players get the job done but ACTIVE participation aka: WORK, by the pro players is required.

Changing how you participate in the world for the better, affects your own personal happiness and the happiness of those around you. If each of us (including the pros) did our own part, the pool world would be a better place.


JoeyA

Bob Jewett
03-27-2011, 09:13 AM
... rule changes to make it impossible for a top amateur player to win a match against a top professional player ...
I'm curious Joey, which changes are those? 10 ball? The gyrations around the break?

Shouldn't we be in favor of any rule change that is an advantage for the more skillful player? Isn't it better for the better players to win the tournaments? Should they flip coins instead?

JB Cases
03-27-2011, 09:26 AM
Um, Charlie Williams puts on several big events per year. Corey Duel puts on a couple events. Shannon Daulton and Tommy Kennedy both tun tours of their own. Allen Hopkins puts on an expo with a pro event attached.

Kelly Fisher and company run the KwikFire tour.

Mike Zuglan runs the Joss Tour.

Did I miss any?

Johnnyt
03-27-2011, 09:30 AM
How does this transfer money from people-who-are-not-pro-players into the pros' pockets? Unless you get money from sponsors or the gate, the players do not come out ahead on average. In most tournaments today, the also-rans donate to the champs. That's also a shaky funding model.

Another problem is that an organized event will involve 1099s.

The also ran model is about finished. They are finally smarting up or the economy won't let them throw momey away. 1099's are not that hard to deal with. Johnnyt

cleary
03-27-2011, 09:36 AM
I'm curious Joey, which changes are those? 10 ball? The gyrations around the break?

Shouldn't we be in favor of any rule change that is an advantage for the more skillful player? Isn't it better for the better players to win the tournaments? Should they flip coins instead?

Luck and roll might be a little better to watch. Making pool more boring doesn't help its viewablity.

JoeyA
03-27-2011, 11:06 AM
I'm curious Joey, which changes are those? 10 ball? The gyrations around the break?

Shouldn't we be in favor of any rule change that is an advantage for the more skillful player? Isn't it better for the better players to win the tournaments? Should they flip coins instead?

NO, we shouldn't be in favor of ANY rule change that is an advantage for the more skillful player.

First off, the better players should and will win the vast majority of all tournaments regardless of how much luck is involved with pool.

Luck is an integral part of practically ANY SPORT or game. The attempt to eliminate the luck factor entirely from the sport of pocket billiards seems to me, to be counter-productive, if we are interested in the massess getting behind the sport.

The public likes to see the underdog make a run against the big dog. They always have and always will. (Just to add, even with the underdog making a run after the big dog, the big dog will almost always come out on top, even with a little luck accidentally dumped in the lap of the underdog. )

A little luck can keep things exciting but the winners will almost always be the big dogs because luck goes both ways.

JoeyA

Big Dave
03-27-2011, 11:20 AM
Amateur Leagues, Pro Tours and a strong, solvent, responsive and sympathetic "Governing Body" is surely the way forward?

DogsPlayingPool
03-27-2011, 11:33 AM
I'm curious Joey, which changes are those? 10 ball? The gyrations around the break?

Shouldn't we be in favor of any rule change that is an advantage for the more skillful player? Isn't it better for the better players to win the tournaments? Should they flip coins instead?

I understand what you are saying Bob, but I'd hardly consider a 9 Ball tournament a coin flip. When was the last time a banger won the US Open 9 Ball, or even the Swanee for that matter? Yet it does offer the dead money the perception they have a better opportunity to come in the cash than a 10 Ball event does. Actually, it probably will not affect what caliber of player will win the event, and the additional luck in 9 Ball is probably more perceived than actual to the dead money that might consider entering the event.

The World Series of Poker main event is $10 grand to enter, for gosh sakes, yet thousands line up to test their "luck". How many really think they have the pure skill to compete with a Phil Ivey? But the perceived luck is enough to convince a lot of people to throw in and try - and many more to tune in to see if an amateur can beat the world beaters - even on one hand.

At the Predator 10 Ball in Vegas a couple of years ago, I think it was Yu Ram Cha who played a heavily favored SVB. As YRC hung in with Shane the crowd got real excited. By the time YRC was on the hill everyone in the crowd had come over to that table to watch. When she won, the crowd went nuts. OK, it was 10 Ball, but the example was just to illustrate people are interested when a heavy underdog has a shot at beating the favorite. Giving the underdog a shot, even if only a perceived one, ain't automatically a bad thing.

Besides, one could argue there is a lot more luck in the 10 Ball break than the 9 Ball break, and quite often a match is decided by "who broke better". Well, since the 10 ball rack is considered to produce a more random break than 9 Ball, one could say that the guy who "broke better" is really the guy who got luckier. And the guy who broke better is often the deciding factor in a 10 Ball match.

I just don't see why in pool there is this effort to try to legislate ALL of the luck out of the game because it's just not possible. I just think that when discussing expert play some people exaggerate the amount of luck involved in 9 Ball and underplay the luck involved in 10 Ball. At the pro level, there is not much in either, but probably more in the 10 Ball break, and the break is a big part of determining the winner. Footballs bounce funny and baseballs occasionally take a bad hop. Luck plays a little part in every game that uses balls.


DPP <<< likes 9 Ball and 10 Ball. :grin:

Gmanpoke
03-27-2011, 11:49 AM
Um, Charlie Williams puts on several big events per year. Corey Duel puts on a couple events. Shannon Daulton and Tommy Kennedy both tun tours of their own. Allen Hopkins puts on an expo with a pro event attached.

Kelly Fisher and company run the KwikFire tour.

Mike Zuglan runs the Joss Tour.

Did I miss any?

Gabe put on the T-Town classic

JAM
03-27-2011, 12:31 PM
I like this thread. I am really enjoying all the great ideas contributed.

Definitely food for thought. Who needs the pool organizational entities to give professional players the green light to move forward.

You're right. The pro players are the actors, and as such, they should create their own destiny.

I look forward to reading more ideas. Keep 'em coming. This thread is very timely. :)

CreeDo
03-27-2011, 01:30 PM
NO, we shouldn't be in favor of ANY rule change that is an advantage for the more sillful player.

First off, the better players should and will win the vast majority of all tournaments regardless of how much luck is involved with pool.

Luck is an integral part of practically ANY SPORT or game. The attempt to eliminate the luck factor entirely from the sport of pocket billiards seems to me, to be counter-productive, if we are interested in the massess getting behind the sport.

The public likes to see the underdog make a run against the big dog. They always have and always will.

JoeyA

What happens when the pros get burnt one to many times, and don't want to gamble thousands of dollars of travel expenses on a coin flip? If they played better than a guy who is at best equal, maybe a little worse... and the better player still lost... are they eager to come back next year?

To be honest I'm not entirely sure the underdog thing matters as much as you think. I'm a very casual basketball fan and you know what team I liked growing up? That's right, THA BULLS. I liked to watch the best player in the world make all those underdogs look like clowns. I could watch MJ and co. club baby seals allll day. People also like to see one amazing dominating talent rise up and just own the game for a few years. Maybe more than they like to see the scrappy underdog steal a game he wasn't supposed to.

---

If good for fans = bad for players, then screw it. The fair-weather fans can go watch football and the people who enjoy a good FAIR game of pool can play their dying niche game on the few decaying tables left in the area.

Taco
03-28-2011, 05:51 AM
Um, Charlie Williams puts on several big events per year. Corey Duel puts on a couple events. Shannon Daulton and Tommy Kennedy both tun tours of their own. Allen Hopkins puts on an expo with a pro event attached.

Kelly Fisher and company run the KwikFire tour.

Mike Zuglan runs the Joss Tour.

Did I miss any?

Tony Robles - Predator Tour

CarlB
03-28-2011, 06:17 AM
Um, Charlie Williams puts on several big events per year. Corey Duel puts on a couple events. Shannon Daulton and Tommy Kennedy both tun tours of their own. Allen Hopkins puts on an expo with a pro event attached.

Kelly Fisher and company run the KwikFire tour.

Mike Zuglan runs the Joss Tour.

Did I miss any?

Well Said...Green to you.

Carl

Johnnyt
03-28-2011, 06:45 AM
Um, Charlie Williams puts on several big events per year. Corey Duel puts on a couple events. Shannon Daulton and Tommy Kennedy both tun tours of their own. Allen Hopkins puts on an expo with a pro event attached.

Kelly Fisher and company run the KwikFire tour.

Mike Zuglan runs the Joss Tour.

Did I miss any?

KwikFire tour folded. What I said was 1 or 2 pros from each state put on a few tournaments a year. I'm sure there is 1 or 2 rooms in each state that would be glad to host a 16 player tournaments with pros if they didn't have to add anything. One of the big problems for the pros is that the US is such a large area= big travel expense, and this would put a lot of tournaments with in driving distance in most areas. I also think 1 day would be enough for a 16 player duble elim tournament. Johnnyt

watchez
03-28-2011, 08:17 AM
Um, Charlie Williams puts on several big events per year. Corey Duel puts on a couple events. Shannon Daulton and Tommy Kennedy both tun tours of their own. Allen Hopkins puts on an expo with a pro event attached.

Kelly Fisher and company run the KwikFire tour.

Mike Zuglan runs the Joss Tour.

Did I miss any?

I have said this before - there is ONE Pro that can put on a tour and it would be successful. One Pro that has gotten lots of backing, sponsorship, exhibition work outside of the pool world where there is real money. One Pro that is more popular and a household name and appeal inside and out of the pool world than any other.

Jeanette Lee - and they should have men and women events going on at the same time. One convention center/casino area rental fee - one tournament director fee - one travel expense fee for the equipment, promotors, players and fans.

jamesroberts
03-28-2011, 09:02 AM
KwikFire tour folded. What I said was 1 or 2 pros from each state put on a few tournaments a year. I'm sure there is 1 or 2 rooms in each state that would be glad to host a 16 player tournaments with pros if they didn't have to add anything. One of the big problems for the pros is that the US is such a large area= big travel expense, and this would put a lot of tournaments with in driving distance in most areas. I also think 1 day would be enough for a 16 player duble elim tournament. Johnnyt

You know I said something similar a while back,
Lets have a 16 man event with 200-500 entry fee
race to 15 single elim
if you cant have this event in the tampa area, then you probably cant have it. Look at all the players that would play
1. Tony Crosby
2. Corey Deuel
3. Rodney Morris
4. Donny Mills
5. Mike Davis
6. Justin Hall
7. Max Eberle
8. James Roberts
9. Jason Richko
10. Han Berber
11. Dave Ross
12. Butch Croft
13. Adam Wheeler
14. Neil Fujiwara
15. Tommy Kennedy
16. Richie Richeson

There are 16 players that live with 3 hours of one another and Im sure they would play, now where would the added money come from? whats the format? entry fee? payout

I would be interested in putting something on, not really sure where to start though

jamesroberts
03-28-2011, 09:05 AM
I have said this before - there is ONE Pro that can put on a tour and it would be successful. One Pro that has gotten lots of backing, sponsorship, exhibition work outside of the pool world where there is real money. One Pro that is more popular and a household name and appeal inside and out of the pool world than any other.

Jeanette Lee - and they should have men and women events going on at the same time. One convention center/casino area rental fee - one tournament director fee - one travel expense fee for the equipment, promotors, players and fans.

Slow down buddy!!! You might get banned on here if you make too much sense, lets talk about something else, maybe aiming systems

Johnnyt
03-28-2011, 09:17 AM
I have said this before - there is ONE Pro that can put on a tour and it would be successful. One Pro that has gotten lots of backing, sponsorship, exhibition work outside of the pool world where there is real money. One Pro that is more popular and a household name and appeal inside and out of the pool world than any other.

Jeanette Lee - and they should have men and women events going on at the same time. One convention center/casino area rental fee - one tournament director fee - one travel expense fee for the equipment, promotors, players and fans.

Good post and you're 100% correct. Many from out of billiards know who she is and she knows how to prmote. Johnnyt

stuckart
03-28-2011, 09:41 AM
You know I said something similar a while back,
Lets have a 16 man event with 200-500 entry fee
race to 15 single elim
if you cant have this event in the tampa area, then you probably cant have it. Look at all the players that would play
1. Tony Crosby
2. Corey Deuel
3. Rodney Morris
4. Donny Mills
5. Mike Davis
6. Justin Hall
7. Max Eberle
8. James Roberts
9. Jason Richko
10. Han Berber
11. Dave Ross
12. Butch Croft
13. Adam Wheeler
14. Neil Fujiwara
15. Tommy Kennedy
16. Richie Richeson

There are 16 players that live with 3 hours of one another and Im sure they would play, now where would the added money come from? whats the format? entry fee? payout

I would be interested in putting something on, not really sure where to start though

If you can get these 16 to play for $500 entry, you could get some qualifiers or lower entry for Amateurs to play in the same tourney and bump the field to 32 players. Say $250 entry for them. There is your added money. Now you have 12K in the pot. Pay out the top 8 spots,

1st $5000
2nd $3000
3rd $1500
4th $1000
5/6th $500
5/6th $500
7/8th $250
7/8th $250

Races to 9 - 9/10 ball, Double Elimination, Run it over 2 days where top 8 return on Sunday in the money. Heck, run a 2nd chance on Sunday with $100 entry or added money from room, door, sponsors, whoever for the players that didn't cash in the main tournament.

Just some ideas......

watchez
03-28-2011, 09:49 AM
Jeanette doesn't seem to have her own personal email address listed but I think all pool fans should start sending her emails to

Teddy.Bloch@octagon.com

and ask her to save pool.

Also, I love what Mark Griffin does for pool but instead of spending his energy (or any energy) monitoring and chastising Behrman (because Behrman is going to live on this 35 year reputation that he has personified and justified no matter what), Mr. Griffin needs to get together with the Seminole Tribe and put on bigger and better events or a legitimate tour. Mark made the statement that he cares what Behrman does and his actions cause it might make future sponsors shy away. Well, in the same respect, he should care what the people that seem to do everything 100% right are doing and put his efforts into working with them. Just saying.

pulzcul
03-28-2011, 11:40 AM
We all remember vividly when our opponent "lucked out" on us. But almost instantly forget when we do it to some one else. LOL thats our nature I guess.

watchez
03-28-2011, 11:47 AM
We all remember vividly when our opponent "lucked out" on us. But almost instantly forget when we do it to some one else. LOL thats our nature I guess.

Exactly.....but what does that have to do with this thread? :p

pulzcul
03-28-2011, 11:52 AM
If you build it they will come! Seriuosly. promote a $1000 buy in OPEN. the pro's will come. Along with every high roller in the country. I don't think you have to keep the entry fee's low to get players. Wouldn't surprise me to see a couple hundred players show up.

pulzcul
03-28-2011, 11:57 AM
NO, we shouldn't be in favor of ANY rule change that is an advantage for the more skillful player.

First off, the better players should and will win the vast majority of all tournaments regardless of how much luck is involved with pool.

Luck is an integral part of practically ANY SPORT or game. The attempt to eliminate the luck factor entirely from the sport of pocket billiards seems to me, to be counter-productive, if we are interested in the massess getting behind the sport.

The public likes to see the underdog make a run against the big dog. They always have and always will. (Just to add, even with the underdog making a run after the big dog, the big dog will almost always come out on top, even with a little luck accidentally dumped in the lap of the underdog. )

A little luck can keep things exciting but the winners will almost always be the big dogs because luck goes both ways.

JoeyA

Sorry I got a little off base. I was responding to Joeys post.

jamesroberts
03-28-2011, 02:14 PM
If you can get these 16 to play for $500 entry, you could get some qualifiers or lower entry for Amateurs to play in the same tourney and bump the field to 32 players. Say $250 entry for them. There is your added money. Now you have 12K in the pot. Pay out the top 8 spots,

1st $5000
2nd $3000
3rd $1500
4th $1000
5/6th $500
5/6th $500
7/8th $250
7/8th $250

Races to 9 - 9/10 ball, Double Elimination, Run it over 2 days where top 8 return on Sunday in the money. Heck, run a 2nd chance on Sunday with $100 entry or added money from room, door, sponsors, whoever for the players that didn't cash in the main tournament.

Just some ideas......

I dont think that would happen, look at the us open ten ball model, they run qualifiers but I dont see amateurs really wanting to play in open events, its more like a punishment to them.

Look at the fatboy challenge, how many of those players would play if 10 k wasnt added, lets say there is a 1k added.
I dont think you would get 8, why would I play someone even in a tourney when I could get a spot gambling for the same money

Bob Jewett
03-28-2011, 07:10 PM
If you build it they will come! Seriously. promote a $1000 buy in OPEN. the pro's will come. Along with every high roller in the country. I don't think you have to keep the entry fee's low to get players. Wouldn't surprise me to see a couple hundred players show up.

Wasn't Allen Hopkins' million-dollar tournament based on this idea? I don't recall that many players.

Since it costs around $1000 to go to a tournament, the average net result of your scheme is -$1000 per player. That doesn't help. Without advertisers/sponsors nearly everyone loses.

justnum
03-28-2011, 07:31 PM
Wasn't Allen Hopkins' million-dollar tournament based on this idea? I don't recall that many players.

Since it costs around $1000 to go to a tournament, the average net result of your scheme is -$1000 per player. That doesn't help. Without advertisers/sponsors nearly everyone loses.

What if the pros developed a buddy system and local billiards people opened up their homes for free room and board?

The more expensive alternative is to group regional players together and rent a van. And then shop around for cheaper room and board. If players do drive they can do it as a group, yea its tough but these are tougher economic times.

stouter2386
03-28-2011, 09:38 PM
I think as most pros sit around waiting for their worlds to change or someone to hand them a bone. What they don't realize is it is within their own grasp to make change happen. You can't really change the world but can certainly change your own world and take a few others along with you. For example, any player or room owner for that matter can do monthly challenge matches that can also be streamed. Two or four players head to head or ring games etc. By themselves these are not big events but will benefit at least a few and provide the public with the feeling something is going on in the sport. There are plenty of ideas.

This isnt a bad idea, maybe some room owners could chime in on this with a opinion