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Spider1
05-02-2011, 01:00 PM
I disagree. Your comparison of an 18 hole golf course to a 9 hole course is closer to comparing a 18 table pool room to a 9 table pool room, both having all different size tables.

Same games played on different size 'fields'.

The only point I am really making is that these two entities of pool exist in two different worlds.

There are thousands and thousands of players who play on both size tables. Probably into the millions.

Otterman
05-02-2011, 01:17 PM
I am reminded that bar-pool is successful with its 500,000+ bar league members.

The world of bar-tables and the world of regulation-tables are two different universes. This thread is about regulation-table pool. I am NOT talking about bar-pool. A full volume could be written about how little these two universes overlap and how dissimilar they really are. I will leave that alone. Bar-table players do not venture into the regulation-table universe. Just the opposite, the regulation-table players DO venture into the bar-table universe.

Bar pool is a highly skilled and very popular amusement. Like video games and old pinball games in bars, the structure for bar-pool fits right in. It is just fine. For regulation-table pool and its games, in order for it to be considered a legitimate sport, the structure needs to be different. In order for it to have a chance, it needs to be somewhat similar to other legitimate successful sports.

IMO, bar-pool could never be considered a sport.

Bar pool is where the public's familiarity with 8 ball comes from, which you earlier advocated as a better game for pro tournaments due to that familiarity. Now you're saying bar pool isn't even a sport (which I actually agree with). Kinda contradictory, IMO, particularly since you make the point that bar table players don't venture into the regulation table world.

8 ball isn't normally played in higher-caliber, regulation table tournaments because most accomplished players hate playing it. 9 ball and 10 ball each require way more skill to play at a high level. Most pros will tell you they require more skill than straight pool as well (and I like straight pool).

Otterman
05-02-2011, 01:45 PM
Back to the pros and cons of "winner breaks" vs. "alternate breaks". The arguments for winner break primarily center on the excitement that is built when a player is stringing racks. Everyone (except the opponent in the chair) wants to see how many they can run, and the alternate breaks format takes this away. I don't disagree with this argument, but I think a change to the competition format (not the games) could add enough excitement to overcome the loss of stringing racks. Adopt a "win by two games" format similar to tennis. Long tennis sets generate the same type of interest as stringing racks, and the players will be under intense pressure while trying to win or stay in the match. Some type of tie-breaker can be utilized if the match becomes too long, maybe even Sudden Death tiebreakers. For 9 ball, I'd like to see races to 7, must win by 2 games, and best 2 out of 3 sets. And yes, alternating break formats DO favor the strongest players, but isn't that the essence of competition? Players with exceptional ability, skill, and the work ethic to develop those attributes should win over less skilled players most of the time.

Venue has been brought up numerous times in this thread. How about pool tables in a casino with betting allowed between players and spectators? Or, spectators are allowed to bet, and the winner of the pool match gets paid based on the betting funds drawn in. Poker has become wildly popular on numerous television stations. Instead of distancing pool from the gambling world, the pool world could simply embrace it and could very well attract some of pokers large sponsors in the process, adding desparately-needed funds for the pro tour and players.

I maintain my position that there's nothing wrong with the games of pool that call-shot, incoming player having the option to pass the shot back on misses, and alternating breaks don't overcome. The pro tour just needs the sponsorship necessary to run nice events and pay the players like a professional athlete (or poker player!) should be. A league system for amateurs like they have in many European countries would be nice as well. Most accomplished amateurs I know hate playing bar table 8 ball (me included).

Paul Schofield
05-02-2011, 02:34 PM
Bar pool is where the public's familiarity with 8 ball comes from, which you earlier advocated as a better game for pro tournaments due to that familiarity. Now you're saying bar pool isn't even a sport (which I actually agree with). Kinda contradictory, IMO, particularly since you make the point that bar table players don't venture into the regulation table world.

8 ball isn't normally played in higher-caliber, regulation table tournaments because most accomplished players hate playing it. 9 ball and 10 ball each require way more skill to play at a high level. Most pros will tell you they require more skill than straight pool as well (and I like straight pool).

I will repeat what I said in post #244: "I think that it is possible that if Eight-Ball was structured differently, it could have a universal appeal. (could)"

The reasons why the better players just hate Eight-Ball is a whole other topic...and a good one, I might add.

Tzytnt
05-02-2011, 04:57 PM
The problems you addressed is more likely occur when a dominant player is running balls...this is more common in sports such as 8/9-ball and 14.1, 10 ball is a good alternative from my perspective.

Also, when talking about sitting idly on the seat, how about safety plays? As far as i know safety plays are exactly when the 2 players compete at the same time both strategically and mentally. Even when you sitting you still have to think about your next move, guess what your opponent is thinking....etc.

For me, the game is fine. Personally I dont see any 'fatal flaw' in the game of pool. It is fascinating for me and interesting to almost everyone. Think about how much money cycles everyday in thousands of pool halls around the globe. It would be really decent. I guess the problem of pool is that it lacks professionalism, not popularity or a good game structure. The majority regard pool as a 'game' instead of 'sports', that is the problem. I guess it would help if they incorporate pool into the Olympics...

seether
05-02-2011, 05:09 PM
Honestly, we keep jumping to new games? Wasn't it straight pool for decades and 9 Ball for decades after that? I'd hardly call that jumping around from game to game. And the current increase in popularity of 10 Ball is not really about players not getting enough chances in 9 Ball. You know better than most what it is about - no conflict and reducing the luck factor. ;)

I remember when I was sisteen and started playin pool,then got interested in tae kwon do,then came paintball,in tae kwon do i got kick in the head hard and thought forget it.In paintball there is a lot of cheating,a wipe here ,a wipe there.So i went back to the game i like the most.That game is pool.

Paul Schofield
05-02-2011, 08:04 PM
Tiny pockets are killing the game,but aside from one pocket pool is no fun to watch for me.
I would not walk across the street to see 10 championship of the world

I once playedone pocket with a well known player from seatle in front of 2000 people at Reno in the practice room,while about 6 people watched the 9 ball championship in the ball room

This was over 20 years ago and I knew pool was doomed a long as 9 ball was concerned,at least for the spectator or sponsor

Thumbs up here.

IMO, it is not the strategy that makes One-Pocket pools most fabulous game. It is the back and forth with both players involved. Good competition is always great to watch. Dippy Dave can play One-Pocket with champions and it is exciting to watch. Can you imagine if they played Eight, Nine, or Ten-Ball? It would never happen. The competition is bad. The structure of the games is wrong for players who's abilities are so far apart. Any two players can play One-Pocket and it can make sense.

Paul Schofield
05-04-2011, 05:41 PM
Are any of you old enough to remember when the finals of the World Straight-Pool Tournament was televised on ABC Wide World of Sports in the late 60s and early 70s? Players were Lassiter, Crane, Breit, and the like. There were always runs of 70 or more. ABC would never show the long run. They would always show the tail end of a run, a miss, and then the incoming player starting a turn at the table. ABC showed the exchange of opportunity at the table. They knew that viewers did not want to see a one sided long run. It makes for bad theatre.

I have watched Nine-Ball matches on television where the score is 2-2 and viewing is fast forwarded through one sided play to a point where the score is 6-2. They show us a rack where both players come to the table more than once or twice in that one rack.

The networks know what makes for good competition and good entertainment. Not only does a player not want to be an opponent and have to sit idly in a chair during a run, the average audience does not want to have to sit and watch it either.

Paul Schofield
05-08-2011, 11:13 PM
I just watched a 20 year old video of the last game of a hill-hill One-Pocket finals between Danny DiLiberto and Ronnie Allen. Just take the pool and set it aside. We know One-Pocket will never be "IT". That being said, the interaction, drama, theatre, and competition was just spectacular. The last rack lasted an hour. Each player was up and out of their chair fifty times. The suspense, body language, facial expressions, bantering between the players, and intereaction with the spectators made for fabulous entertainment.

This is true for every sport: The sport is overshaddowed and enhanced by the human story. What makes Tiger Wood's golf play so entertaining is the full diynamic of the spectical. Other golfers are playing and they become props for Tiger. The audience gets to compare the performance of the field to Tiger's. We get to see every player's performance and watch the flow of human emotion.

Compare this to pool and its fatal flaw. I say that if any player sits idly in his chair for longer than a few minutes, pool loses.

justnum
05-09-2011, 06:39 AM
. Each player was up and out of their chair fifty times. The suspense, body language, facial expressions, bantering between the players, and intereaction with the spectators made for fabulous entertainment.


I agree live film productions of pool tournaments are limited in terms of camera angles.

If pool video producers had a process after they get their footage, like a reality show, a better story could be portrayed through film. The details you noted are frames that enhance the story-telling process. And with a post production process, you can get players to put a personal touch on the commentary about what they were doing and the expectations they had.

It would be instructional and like a personal pool journal for the players.

I'd buy a video with Earl complaining after a tournament about who was "purposely distracting him as he was getting down on a shot."

Paul Schofield
05-10-2011, 11:19 PM
Yup! Pat Fleming and Company are very aware of pool's fatal flaw. And they are grabbing the bull by the horns:

http://www.azbilliards.com/2000storya.php?storynum=8724

Get both players up and out of their chair as often as possible. Maybe Pat's solution is the answer. Maybe not. The important thing is to recognize and acknowledge the problem. Solutions will follow.

I rack balls
05-11-2011, 01:55 AM
I don't think its flawed. If a man jumps up and runs a set out ill shake his hand. If I were Bustamante I would say double the bet. We can talk about luck factor all day but the bottom line is 99% of the matches you lose are because you beat yourself.

Paul Schofield
05-14-2011, 11:45 PM
.The last 10 or so "pool halls/bars" that I have gone into (in CO, WI, WA & BC) I've thrown out 9 balls on the table and shot left-handed for 15 minutes without getting anyone wanting to play.

Further evidence (IMHO) that this sector is on life support is that in each of these establishments the employees behind the counter did not have any passion for the game: it was just a job.

This is off topic but deserves comment. My hat is off to you. You have pointed out a significant oversight by room owners. I have 40 employees in my establishment. I advertise in the local newspaper for positions regularly in my bar/restaurant. I have never once done that for the billiard room. I look from within my customer base in my room for workers. A prospective worker must be just nuts about pool in order to work in the billiard room.

Paul Schofield
05-16-2011, 07:08 PM
I don't think its flawed.

Of course you don't think it is flawed. No one involved in this game today thinks that it is flawed. We are all attached to this game because of what it is. We like it the way it is and we have no interest in seeing change. We just don't understand why the rest of the country does not see pool the way we do.

Here is the problem. We want to see growth into new demographics. We want to see new viable sports venues. We want there to be a professional segment. We want to see pool on television. We want to make more life long enthusiasts. We want people to find pool, enjoy it, and make it a part of their lives. We want spectators for the game. We want more participants. We want growth.

I don't think I need to spell out where we are today. I am coming from a different perspective and challenging the conventional wisdom of pool's Shaman.

inside_english
05-25-2011, 01:52 PM
Are you hinting that it could make a good pool player tee shirt?

Sure...I will back off of it it helps. Alright, now, tell us what you think.
Nah, too many on this forum that are way smarter than me have already contributed...:)

DogsPlayingPool
05-25-2011, 03:16 PM
Yup! Pat Fleming and Company are very aware of pool's fatal flaw. And they are grabbing the bull by the horns:

http://www.azbilliards.com/2000storya.php?storynum=8724

Get both players up and out of their chair as often as possible. Maybe Pat's solution is the answer. Maybe not. The important thing is to recognize and acknowledge the problem. Solutions will follow.

Paul, have you tried having a Bowlliards or Pool300 tournament? These games have both players coming to the table for the same number of innings and the high score wins. They are very similar except that Pool300 plays the first inning of each "frame" in more of a rotation style format, while Bowlliards is played pretty much like straight pool (call shot, any ball). Scoring is like bowling.

What say you?

M HOUSE
05-25-2011, 04:20 PM
People were trying to figure out how to "fix" pool when I started playing the game in the'60s and others have been trying to "fix"it ever since. What some find as a flaw as described in this thread, others find as one on the attractions of the game. I am one of the others. A long time ago a major mag (I believe it was SI) did a story on Lassiter. To this day, I remember one of his quotes being, "As long as you are at the table, you'r opponent can not beat you." I found that an attractive part of the game, still do.

One more note, I have been to many, many tournaments in my time. I couldn't even tell you who won most of them, but if someone put together a string of racks to win a match, it was like it happened yesterday. I'm guessing that I'm not the only one that enjoys watching someone "catch a gear".

Paul Schofield
05-25-2011, 06:41 PM
Paul, have you tried having a Bowlliards or Pool300 tournament? These games have both players coming to the table for the same number of innings and the high score wins. They are very similar except that Pool300 plays the first inning of each "frame" in more of a rotation style format, while Bowlliards is played pretty much like straight pool (call shot, any ball). Scoring is like bowling.

What say you?

I have tried them. I re-posted some earlier comments I made on this topic. Don't misunderstand. I do not think that scored games are a dead end.


Post #32 Good thinking. Jerry Breisath (a nationally recognized instructor) devoted an gallant effort to a similar concept he devised called Equal Offense. Here is the problem with that: pool players want to play interactive games. They have only anectotal interest in scored games like Bowliards, Stroke Play, and Equal Offense. The players won't play scored games. Players rule.

Post #131 Tara - I did scored game leagues in the early 80's. It started out so promising but after three years, the players came to me and asked that I not run the league again. They wanted to play interactive games. I thought I had discovered the wheel. I can't tell you how disappointed I was. I have often wondered if my version of scored game or my league function was missing a component, and that caused it to fail. I am looking at the website to see what pool300 has that I did not. I see a number of differences. I am very interested in hearing how it goes in the coming years. I am very interested in learning why mine failed. I am also aware of a venture called 6pocket which is also a scored game. I would really like to know how they are doing. Maybe he is following this thread and he can let us know. Thanks for the link. Paul

Paul Schofield
05-25-2011, 06:44 PM
People were trying to figure out how to "fix" pool when I started playing the game in the'60s and others have been trying to "fix"it ever since. What some find as a flaw as described in this thread, others find as one on the attractions of the game. I am one of the others. A long time ago a major mag (I believe it was SI) did a story on Lassiter. To this day, I remember one of his quotes being, "As long as you are at the table, you'r opponent can not beat you." I found that an attractive part of the game, still do.

One more note, I have been to many, many tournaments in my time. I couldn't even tell you who won most of them, but if someone put together a string of racks to win a match, it was like it happened yesterday. I'm guessing that I'm not the only one that enjoys watching someone "catch a gear".

If only there were many more like you, we would not even be having this discussion. Straight-Pool would be king and the business of pool would be in great shape.

Catwalk
05-25-2011, 06:50 PM
I'm only halfway through digesting 18 pages of discussion, but would like to make a shameless plug for my game that I posted rules for here (http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=232851). I think it'd actually go a long way towards addressing the issues raised. It's not that difficult for beginners to play, has high spectator value and has a lot of interaction between players. It retains the core of pool (runs, called shots, defensive play) and shifts the balance a bit. I hope you'll try it out, I'd be honoured if you try hosting a local tournament with it and would love to hear how it turns out.

sammy p
05-27-2011, 08:41 AM
Hi, azers. I think that pool is different from any other game or sport because a player can lose without ever having the opportunity to play. It makes the stress different also. I wouldn't change a thing! I love the game.

M HOUSE
05-27-2011, 11:17 AM
Hi, azers. I think that pool is different from any other game or sport because a player can lose without ever having the opportunity to play. It makes the stress different also. I wouldn't change a thing! I love the game.

I beleive it may also be the only game or sport that a player can WIN and never have the opportunity to play. (Eight-ball: the other player runs out, makes the eight and fouls).

And for you quick-thinkers out there, no, I don't consider Russian Roulette a game or sport.

Paul Schofield
05-31-2011, 07:51 AM
This following thread is no joke. This is what we do and is precisely what I am talking about.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=233393

scratchs
05-31-2011, 09:41 AM
I think alternating the brake gaves each player a shot at the table, but the stronger player is still going to win.
Personaly,I enjoy watching players string racks. As to how pool can become more, players have to be paid that day. As far as tv..no idea,to much money envolved..

Roger Long
05-31-2011, 12:00 PM
Pros have said it themselves many times: the winner in a match between two evenly paired players will usually be determined by whoever is breaking best.

But does it really have to be that way?

Roger

Paul Schofield
06-03-2011, 10:18 PM
As has been previously mentioned, One Pocket and games with alternating breaks would change some things too!!! These ideas and thoughts are nothing NEW. It's just that PEOPLE are too stubborn or set in their ways to change.
Maniac

No, people are not too stubborn to change. That is not how it works. We are talking about recreation. Forget about right, wrong, fair, and unfair. Show someone how something can be more fun and change becomes possible.

Yes, Grady's rules for Nine-Ball are fairer but they are they more fun? The fact is they are rarely used.

Alternating breaks is a shallow fix. Much more would need to be done.

Wags
06-04-2011, 11:10 PM
Pros have said it themselves many times: the winner in a match between two evenly paired players will usually be determined by whoever is breaking best.

But does it really have to be that way?

Roger

Sounds to me like one of these two players is playing better than the other. Why would you want it another way? What is the point?

AnitoKid
06-04-2011, 11:44 PM
As I was reading the thread and came across this,
things came to mind - the importance of excitement!
Of Action! Of Drama!

And i remember the Gillette Wide World of Sports tv program
(or was it Gillette Word of Sports) when I was still a little kid.
It featured billiards!

It got me curious - the way the game was player - how the players
get to try to pocket the balls and all.

But what was truly memorable were the players themselves.
One was like reserved, with a touch of class and a sense of refinement.
He was really, really, really very good!

But, it was the other player who was the center of it all!
He kept on talking for like the whole duration of the match!
He blabbered even when his opponent was shooting!
Heck, he was even yakking while he himself was shooting!

I cant remember what he was talking about - but it got the people
smiling! Laughing! Interested! Like there was drama and excitement
in the TV studio - and action on the pool table itself!

That player was Minnesota Fats! He brought that drama and sense
of excitement to the match. And the action part was that of the players
trying their best to pocket the balls in the middle of it all!
I cannot forget that episode - ever! And I kid you not!



AnitoKid



THAT creates action AND drama!
I.M.O.

Paul Schofield
06-05-2011, 06:58 PM
Sounds to me like one of these two players is playing better than the other. Why would you want it another way? What is the point?

Come-on Wags. You know what this is about. Me and everyone else are all OK with lopsided scores and one player beating an opponent into submission. This thread is about figuring out ways to engage both players in ways that all other sports do.

Cameron Smith
06-05-2011, 09:24 PM
I beleive it may also be the only game or sport that a player can WIN and never have the opportunity to play. (Eight-ball: the other player runs out, makes the eight and fouls).

And for you quick-thinkers out there, no, I don't consider Russian Roulette a game or sport.

That's an easy fix. When I gamble at 8 ball (rare) I always change the rule such that if a player fouls on the 8 or pockets the 8 early, it's a foul/cue ball in hand. 8 gets respotted. The only way to win is to pocket the 8 ball.

Paul Schofield
06-06-2011, 08:47 AM
That's an easy fix. When I gamble at 8 ball (rare) I always change the rule such that if a player fouls on the 8 or pockets the 8 early, it's a foul/cue ball in hand. 8 gets respotted. The only way to win is to pocket the 8 ball.

Very good. This is what I am talking about. We should compare our game to other successful sports. Do like they do. I cannot think of a sport where you lose the game because of a foul. I am inclined to think that the current rule revolves around the issue of getting the 8-ball out of a coin operated table.

I can think of a few areas where we could compare and take a lesson or two.

mullyman
06-06-2011, 04:26 PM
Uh, golf has pretty broad based appeal, has major sponsorship, hugely successful tours, network TV plus it's own dedicated cable channel, and even the second tier & journeyman pros are millionaires.

In golf your competitor also doesn't play defense against you.

With all due respect, I don't think that's it.

Yeah, gold was my first thought too. Bowling springs to mind also.
MULLY

Paul Schofield
06-07-2011, 09:11 AM
Yeah, gold was my first thought too. Bowling springs to mind also.
MULLY

This is redundant.

Golf and bowling are both good. A player cannot play without limit while his opponent sits, waits, and hopes to get a chance to participate. Golf and bowling have regular intervals of participation that make sense. All legitimate sports have that. We need the same.

franko
06-07-2011, 11:43 AM
Uh, golf has pretty broad based appeal, has major sponsorship, hugely successful tours, network TV plus it's own dedicated cable channel, and even the second tier & journeyman pros are millionaires.

In golf your competitor also doesn't play defense against you.

With all due respect, I don't think that's it.

My thoughts exactly. The same is true for bowling. In fact at least in Pool you can play a safe against your opponent that is not even there in Golf and bowling.I believe Kevin Treadeau was on the right track when he wanted to increase the prize funds to create interest in Pool.His mistake was that he jumped Pool from 10k $ to 500k . He could not keep up with those high prize funds. IF he had gone to a total of 200k prize $ with lets say 50k for 1st. place he would still have had all the players clamoring around him and he would have been able to keep his tour going and give it time to create a fan base.

ironman
06-07-2011, 12:15 PM
It’s not rocket science. All one has to do is pick out the common components of all successful sports and then identify what is missing in pool. Pool has a “FATAL FLAW”. Pool has its own glass ceiling.

Here is the “FATAL FLAW”: A player is entitled to play on offence and score without limit while an opponent sits idly without influence. The combination of these components is not a recipe for success. All sports know that this is unacceptable. No successful legitimate sport has this structure. This current structure of pool mirrors a video game, not a sport. Play Pac Man and make your opponent sit and watch you clear screens. Play pool and make your opponent sit and watch you run balls/racks.

Take note of the following: a 240,000 straight rail billiard run, a run of 622 balkline billiards, a run of 31 three cushion billiards, a run of 4137 points in English Billiards, a 526 ball run in straight pool, an 18 pack in bar-box nine-ball, an 11 pack in nine-ball on a big-table. Where are these games now? Are these examples of successful games with viable futures? All these games are evidence of failed attempts to come to terms with the “FATAL FLAW”. Players get good so let’s make the game harder. Is Ten Ball with tiny pockets the answer to improving interest in the game? I don’t think so.

Baseball, football, basketball, golf, bowling, and other successful sports have written into their rules, regular and predictable opportunities for players/teams to participate. This makes for viable competition and result in popular successful sports. Pool needs to look inward at its structure and look for ways to do the same. The fix would send pool’s evolution in an entirely different direction. Evolution takes a long time and pool is light years away from being ready for prime time. If the “FATAL FLAW” was fixed, I think it is very possible that over time, one new game would emerge that would have the broad based appeal needed so that pool could join all the other successful sports.

It may well be aa Fatal Flaw but only when the game is played at it's best. So may good players whine and cry about alternating break when it is a fix to what you propose.
A run of 526 is not even official. Running 18 racks on the bar box, is very rare, and on and on. i have seen few matches in my life where the losing player didn't blow some chance to get himself back into the match.
i understand your feeling here, but in the big picture great pool is not wins most of the time, but poor play or simple missing.
As sad as it may seem, that is what pool to me is all about, making and missing!

mullyman
06-07-2011, 05:31 PM
This is redundant.

Golf and bowling are both good. A player cannot play without limit while his opponent sits, waits, and hopes to get a chance to participate. Golf and bowling have regular intervals of participation that make sense. All legitimate sports have that. We need the same.

So what about alternate breaks? That seems to even the playing field right there? Even it up even more, alternate breaks with cue ball in hand after the break?
MULLY

Paul Schofield
06-10-2011, 10:35 PM
So what about alternate breaks? That seems to even the playing field right there? Even it up even more, alternate breaks with cue ball in hand after the break?
MULLY

Alternate breaks is good but it does not go far enough. Pool's tradition is when a player pockets a ball, he gets to shoot again. The reward is that he gets another chance to shoot and score. This is ingrained in every player's head. Awful tough to change player's instincts and tradition. Pocketing the winning ball and then turning the table over to an opponent so that he can have his turn to shoot and participate, is a hard sell. A method would have to be employed that would disincentivise the break. In other words, breaking the balls would have to become a disadvantage whereby players prefer their opponent break.

On ball in hand after the break: Break-and-Run-Out is pool's pinnacle and definition of perfection. It is what a pool player lives to do. Ball in hand after the break negates the special skills needed to execute a good break(control the cue ball, control the 1-ball, and get a good spread). I cannot express enough, just how important Break-and-Run-Out is to our sport. We should be very careful what we do to it.

DogsPlayingPool
06-10-2011, 11:10 PM
So Paul, have you held a Bowlliard tournament yet?

pocketspeed
06-11-2011, 04:41 AM
then you didnt think too hard. what about the golfer last season (cant remember his name) who lost the tourney cuz he grounded his club in a bunker that he didnt ever recognize as a bunker? or the tennis player who loses the match on a double fault-both fouls right?

so this thread did intrigue me, but not enough to read all 18 pages. did paul ever say in there exactly what he would do to fix the alleged "fatal flaw"?

i really cant see that this "fatal flaw" is pools problem. i'm not a great player, but i am a great spectator and havent seen too many matches where each player didnt have his chances.

brian

Very good. This is what I am talking about. We should compare our game to other successful sports. Do like they do. I cannot think of a sport where you lose the game because of a foul. I am inclined to think that the current rule revolves around the issue of getting the 8-ball out of a coin operated table.

I can think of a few areas where we could compare and take a lesson or two.

Paul Schofield
06-11-2011, 06:18 AM
then you didnt think too hard. what about the golfer last season (cant remember his name) who lost the tourney cuz he grounded his club in a bunker that he didnt ever recognize as a bunker? or the tennis player who loses the match on a double fault-both fouls right?

so this thread did intrigue me, but not enough to read all 18 pages. did paul ever say in there exactly what he would do to fix the alleged "fatal flaw"?

i really cant see that this "fatal flaw" is pools problem. i'm not a great player, but i am a great spectator and havent seen too many matches where each player didnt have his chances.

brian

Grounding a club in a bunker is a one stroke penalty in golf. Double faulting a serve in tennis means an opponent wins the point. I think you are speaking of how these infractions cost the players in their overall performance. Sometimes, one mistake can cost a player a tournament.

You like it so you watch. I don't think there are enough of you. As a matter of fact, spectators in pool are almost extinct. I have not offered a solution. I do want to know what people think. Thanks for the comments.

pocketspeed
06-11-2011, 09:44 AM
Grounding a club in a bunker is a one stroke penalty in golf. Double faulting a serve in tennis means an opponent wins the point. I think you are speaking of how these infractions cost the players in their overall performance. Sometimes, one mistake can cost a player a tournament.

You like it so you watch. I don't think there are enough of you. As a matter of fact, spectators in pool are almost extinct. I have not offered a solution. I do want to know what people think. Thanks for the comments.

so what is your solution besides pointing out what you think is the fatal flaw? i'm sorry but if you can only bring the problem to the table you've brought nothing.

brian

Paul Schofield
06-11-2011, 07:13 PM
Very good. This is what I am talking about. We should compare our game to other successful sports. Do like they do. I cannot think of a sport where you lose the game because of a foul. I am inclined to think that the current rule revolves around the issue of getting the 8-ball out of a coin operated table.

I can think of a few areas where we could compare and take a lesson or two.

More along this line of thinking: No sport that I can think of makes a player a winner before the designated end of the game. Short racks in Nine and Ten-Ball make pool look more like a casino game than a legitimate sport. Get rid of the short racks. If the 9 or 10-ball falls early, leave it down and continue to shoot. It should not be a win. A win should go to whoever legally pockets the last ball on the table. I only say this because all legitimate sports do not have a short cut to victory.

Play the games out.

And yes: dump the three foul rule.

Paul Schofield
06-12-2011, 05:15 PM
More along this line of thinking: No sport that I can think of makes a player a winner before the designated end of the game. Short racks in Nine and Ten-Ball make pool look more like a casino game than a legitimate sport. Get rid of the short racks. If the 9 or 10-ball falls early, leave it down and continue to shoot. It should not be a win. A win should go to whoever legally pockets the last ball on the table. I only say this because all legitimate sports do not have a short cut to victory.

Play the games out.

And yes: dump the three foul rule.

...or spot the 8, 9, or 10-ball. Just play the games out. No short games. 14.1, Banks, One-Pocket, Billiards, and Snooker don't have a quick way to win and neither does Bowling, Golf, Tennis, Football, Baseball, or Basketball.

mullyman
06-12-2011, 11:55 PM
Alternate breaks is good but it does not go far enough. Pool's tradition is when a player pockets a ball, he gets to shoot again. The reward is that he gets another chance to shoot and score. This is ingrained in every player's head. Awful tough to change player's instincts and tradition. Pocketing the winning ball and then turning the table over to an opponent so that he can have his turn to shoot and participate, is a hard sell. A method would have to be employed that would disincentivise the break. In other words, breaking the balls would have to become a disadvantage whereby players prefer their opponent break.

On ball in hand after the break: Break-and-Run-Out is pool's pinnacle and definition of perfection. It is what a pool player lives to do. Ball in hand after the break negates the special skills needed to execute a good break(control the cue ball, control the 1-ball, and get a good spread). I cannot express enough, just how important Break-and-Run-Out is to our sport. We should be very careful what we do to it.

How about having to bank the odd number balls? I'm just tossing stuff out there, man. Personally, I think 9-ball, or even 10 ball for that matter, as a tournament game is a waste of time, unless time is what you are worried about. In my mind tournaments should be straight pool. Remove 99.9% of the luck and bring it down to pure skill. If a player walks up and runs 150 and out then he deserves to have that win under his belt.
MULLY

Paul Schofield
06-17-2011, 10:14 PM
It’s time for another analogy.

Last night I watched Poker on television for an hour. I studied it carefully. There was no physical skill involved. The competition was a show. It was a show of growing suspense, human character, intense pressure, and human interaction. The participants and the audience were all drawn into the spectacle. It was the back-and-forth human interaction with everything at stake that was so fascinating. Pool could take some lessons here. Poker is highly interactive. If straight-pool was a card game, it would be solitaire. Put solitaire on TV and see how that sells. The other popular pool games are not far behind.

Catwalk
06-18-2011, 03:50 AM
I'd like to compare 8-ball and 9-ball with snooker. Snooker is essentially the same in most core aspects (except for a bunch of really silly and confusing rules), but you start out with a defensive break and you're rewarded much more directly for an "incomplete" run. A snooker match sees much more interaction between players, something I think has a large say in its appeal to spectators. Runouts (getting enough points to win a frame in a single break) are still there, but they don't happen very often. And when they do happen, there's usually been a lot of maneuvering leading up to that point.

In comparison, a single game of 8-ball or 9-ball at the highest level is just not that interesting to watch. If a ball falls in the break and there's sufficiently good position, you're watching a game of solitaire. I guess what I'm saying is that a pool game is too short and too easy to win without letting your opponent get to the table to really be worth watching. Alternate breaks do not address this issue at all. I do think making each individual game harder helps address the issue, but that runs the risk of making the game a lot less appealing for lower level players to play and hence create more of a gap between top, medium and low level play.

Paul Schofield
06-18-2011, 08:54 PM
I'd like to compare 8-ball and 9-ball with snooker. Snooker is essentially the same in most core aspects (except for a bunch of really silly and confusing rules), but you start out with a defensive break and you're rewarded much more directly for an "incomplete" run. A snooker match sees much more interaction between players, something I think has a large say in its appeal to spectators. Runouts (getting enough points to win a frame in a single break) are still there, but they don't happen very often. And when they do happen, there's usually been a lot of maneuvering leading up to that point.

In comparison, a single game of 8-ball or 9-ball at the highest level is just not that interesting to watch. If a ball falls in the break and there's sufficiently good position, you're watching a game of solitaire. I guess what I'm saying is that a pool game is too short and too easy to win without letting your opponent get to the table to really be worth watching. Alternate breaks do not address this issue at all. I do think making each individual game harder helps address the issue, but that runs the risk of making the game a lot less appealing for lower level players to play and hence create more of a gap between top, medium and low level play.

Great post. I find this quote particularly interesting: "A snooker match sees much more interaction between players, something I think has a large say in its appeal to spectators."

I also agree with this quote: "Alternate breaks do not address this issue at all." . I think it is only a good start. More would have to be done.

Catwalk
06-19-2011, 02:47 AM
I actually think alternate breaks make matters worse. All it does is let players alternate playing Solitaire, making it more difficult to catch up if you're behind IMO. It also doesn't address the lack of interaction. And as someone else posted, I feel it takes a little bit of the spirit of pool away. When I'm playing, one of my big motivations for running out is having the other guy rack for my next break :)

JoeW
06-19-2011, 07:11 AM
The problem, as I see it, is to improve the amount of competition within the game. The idea is to make it more like football where anyone can play (sand lot game etc) and still admire the pros for their level of skill. Here is an idea that attempts to address the issue raised. It has some flaws and needs revising but it may address Paul’s identified problem.

A player earns one point for each ball pocketed up to three points (there are only 15 balls in a rack). If the third point is converted to a bank or a kick the player earns two points. After the third (or fourth point) the player yields the table to his opponent. The player’s problem is to play for a two pointer or play defense or play for a two pointer with defense.

A match might be some specified number of racks.

In a sand lot (amateur) game the players make any ball on the table for the point but have to call the last shot.

Professional games are played in rotation format.

An addition that might be of interest is a two point shot that allows the player to remain at the table (a transition from the way pool is played today). If the player makes a two rail bank (or kick) on their third shot they earn two points and the right to continue shooting. The game becomes complicarted with the player having to think through their ability, their strategy and their willingness to take a chance. This type of play encourages skill, courage, strategy and pits two players against each other. In this form of play the term "heart" takes on real meaning.

Paul Schofield
06-19-2011, 07:45 PM
alternate breaks make matters worse. All it does is let players alternate playing Solitaire

Good one. I have to agree.

enzo
06-19-2011, 10:02 PM
It’s not rocket science. All one has to do is pick out the common components of all successful sports and then identify what is missing in pool. Pool has a “FATAL FLAW”. Pool has its own glass ceiling.

Here is the “FATAL FLAW”: A player is entitled to play on offence and score without limit while an opponent sits idly without influence. The combination of these components is not a recipe for success. All sports know that this is unacceptable. No successful legitimate sport has this structure. This current structure of pool mirrors a video game, not a sport. Play Pac Man and make your opponent sit and watch you clear screens. Play pool and make your opponent sit and watch you run balls/racks.

Take note of the following: a 240,000 straight rail billiard run, a run of 622 balkline billiards, a run of 31 three cushion billiards, a run of 4137 points in English Billiards, a 526 ball run in straight pool, an 18 pack in bar-box nine-ball, an 11 pack in nine-ball on a big-table. Where are these games now? Are these examples of successful games with viable futures? All these games are evidence of failed attempts to come to terms with the “FATAL FLAW”. Players get good so let’s make the game harder. Is Ten Ball with tiny pockets the answer to improving interest in the game? I don’t think so.

Baseball, football, basketball, golf, bowling, and other successful sports have written into their rules, regular and predictable opportunities for players/teams to participate. This makes for viable competition and result in popular successful sports. Pool needs to look inward at its structure and look for ways to do the same. The fix would send pool’s evolution in an entirely different direction. Evolution takes a long time and pool is light years away from being ready for prime time. If the “FATAL FLAW” was fixed, I think it is very possible that over time, one new game would emerge that would have the broad based appeal needed so that pool could join all the other successful sports.

I believe the exact opposite. I think this ability to keep an opponent (no matter how capable) helpless is a unuque and positive aspect of our game. I don't think it's a flaw in the slightest. I think you have to answer why say mike sigels 150 and out straigfht pool accu stat tapes are so popular if you are in fact correct. The truth is, fans, and would be fans, actually want to see this type of thing.

note: has anybody mentioned "equal offense" yet? i don't know exactly how it's played, but the jist is each player get a straight pool break shot and they see who run (or avergare) the most.

Paul Schofield
06-20-2011, 10:57 PM
I believe the exact opposite. I think this ability to keep an opponent (no matter how capable) helpless is a unuque and positive aspect of our game. I don't think it's a flaw in the slightest. I think you have to answer why say mike sigels 150 and out straigfht pool accu stat tapes are so popular if you are in fact correct. The truth is, fans, and would be fans, actually want to see this type of thing.

note: has anybody mentioned "equal offense" yet? i don't know exactly how it's played, but the jist is each player get a straight pool break shot and they see who run (or avergare) the most.

No disrespect intended but ... Straight-Pool is dead. The real truth is that there are very few fans or would be fans. Please go further and explain to me the popularity of the Sigel 150 and out tape. TV will not touch Straight-Pool and as a matter of fact, less and less pool in any form is being televised.

Equal Offense and other scored games have been discussed at length in this thread.

Cameron Smith
06-21-2011, 04:58 PM
No disrespect intended but ... Straight-Pool is dead. The real truth is that there are very few fans or would be fans. Please go further and explain to me the popularity of the Sigel 150 and out tape. TV will not touch Straight-Pool and as a matter of fact, less and less pool in any form is being televised.

Equal Offense and other scored games have been discussed at length in this thread.

I mentioned Rotation in another thread, but there is still only marginal interest in it. I do believe Rotation solves most of the issues plagueing the game. For anyone who is concerned about players running out the set, it won't happen in a race to 8 or better. For those who want multi-rack runs, you may still get a 2 or 3 pack. A game of rotation is not much longer than an 8 ball or even some 10 ball game. The one from accu-stats was only 70 min long, and if it had gone hill hill I suspect it would have been 2 hours in length (roughly the same as many race to 11, 9 ball match's). For the people who want stats, the points create plenty of opportunity to create all kinds of stats. For those who hate that you can win a game by just pocketing one ball in the rack, to win in rotation you have to at least run the last 5 balls of the rack. For those who feel rotation games are needed for tv, well that's the name of the game.

I've been wondering if the advent of internet streaming and increasing quality of the streaming has had something to do with the decrease of televised pool events. We've lost a number of the annual events that managed to get on tv and I'm not sure if the effort is being put forth to replace them. I could be wrong, but it feels that we've become very comfortable with our internet streaming, which is great, but it doesn't do much as far as promoting the game to the masses. Unless we're getting lots of people regularly searching through the ustream, as far as marketing is concerned, internet streams are very much preaching to the choir.

BrokeHustler
06-21-2011, 05:57 PM
We just need a couple good movies that glamorize the sport. Maybe starring Brad Pit and Angelina Jolie playing one pocket . Really its all about the cash, or maybe to many ugly people playing pool. The only cool character in pool that i would pay to watch is earl because he is nuts and entertaining plus he invented the double glove and ass weights, maybe pool players are to boring and we should start wearing sunglasses like the poker players.

The only successful game played on the a table is Poker! now that i think about it they're ugly people that play this game too, and the reason its so successful is really anybody can play it doesn't take a lot of practice and you don't need poker table all you need is a $2 pack of cards you can play on a kitchen table, camping, anywhere so people can relate , most people play poker during a pool tournament anyways.


oh yeah ramble ramble and more ramble.

AtLarge
06-21-2011, 06:42 PM
...maybe pool players are to boring and we should start wearing sunglasses like the poker players. ...

Earl did that a few years ago, too!

enzo
06-21-2011, 07:01 PM
No disrespect intended but ... Straight-Pool is dead. The real truth is that there are very few fans or would be fans. Please go further and explain to me the popularity of the Sigel 150 and out tape. TV will not touch Straight-Pool and as a matter of fact, less and less pool in any form is being televised.

Equal Offense and other scored games have been discussed at length in this thread.

Maybe we just see the problem differently. I think players and TD's should promote the games we feel the players want to play (i think they want to play one pocket and nine ball; maybe some straight pool) and show and games which show their differing skills... much in the same way the pga picks courses-- they are all different, and some courses suit some players better than others. i dont think the solution lies in changing pool, or changing the way we play. i think we the players like the games, and the format. i mean.... if we could get major promotion and tv coverage if the players wore elvis suits and sing karioke in between shots, would you want that?

i think most of us want pool's format to stay the way it is for the most part (because we all know it is a thing of beauty), and pools problems must be addressed from other angles.

note: truth is, maybe somebody knows? but i would think those 150 and out tapes are some of the most popular. maybe im wrong? anybody?

Cameron Smith
06-21-2011, 07:19 PM
Maybe we just see the problem differently. I think players and TD's should promote the games we feel the players want to play (i think they want to play one pocket and nine ball; maybe some straight pool) and show and games which show their differing skills... much in the same way the pga picks courses-- they are all different, and some courses suit some players better than others. i dont think the solution lies in changing pool, or changing the way we play. i think we the players like the games, and the format. i mean.... if we could get major promotion and tv coverage if the players wore elvis suits and sing karioke in between shots, would you want that?

i think most of us want pool's format to stay the way it is for the most part (because we all know it is a thing of beauty), and pools problems must be addressed from other angles.

note: truth is, maybe somebody knows? but i would think those 150 and out tapes are some of the most popular. maybe im wrong? anybody?

For what it's worth, I think enjoying 14.1 is a matter of education in a lot of cases. My girlfriend isn't a player but she's learned to appreciate the game and finds it fairly gripping as a run can break down at any time or they can run right out. There is a lot of unpredicitability.

Paul Schofield
06-22-2011, 06:14 AM
I mentioned Rotation in another thread, but there is still only marginal interest in it. I do believe Rotation solves most of the issues plagueing the game. For anyone who is concerned about players running out the set, it won't happen in a race to 8 or better. For those who want multi-rack runs, you may still get a 2 or 3 pack. A game of rotation is not much longer than an 8 ball or even some 10 ball game.

Cameron

I view Rotation as the same as Nine-Ball or Ten-Ball, only harder. In my original post I stated : "Players get good so let’s make the game harder. Is Ten Ball with tiny pockets the answer to improving interest in the game? I don’t think so." I think that moving to Rotation would be moving right off the charts. The rotation games are too hard for the beginner or even average player to understand or play. For this reason, I give Rotation (the hardest of all rotation games) little chance in the grand scheme of things.

Catwalk
06-22-2011, 07:56 AM
I think an important question is whether we should have pro games and amateur games or strive for games that appeal to both levels. 8-Ball is definitely the amateur game of choice, and is a lot easier to follow if you know little about pool. But it's also not that interesting to play above a certain level. 9-ball can be hard to follow if you don't know the colours by heart, and is quite hard for most amateur players who'll often feel (from personal experience) that it doesn't matter much how many balls they sink when they can't run more than 2 or 3 in a row anyway.

While snooker is not exactly friendly to beginners, it does make sense at an amateur level even if you can't sink more than 2-3 balls in a row. Make 2 balls in a row and you've made a break! Instant gratification and a big advantage over your opponent, if he keeps making only one red at a time.

JoeyA
06-22-2011, 08:18 AM
The problem, as I see it, is to improve the amount of competition within the game. The idea is to make it more like football where anyone can play (sand lot game etc) and still admire the pros for their level of skill. Here is an idea that attempts to address the issue raised. It has some flaws and needs revising but it may address Paul’s identified problem.

A player earns one point for each ball pocketed up to three points (there are only 15 balls in a rack). If the third point is converted to a bank or a kick the player earns two points. After the third (or fourth point) the player yields the table to his opponent. The player’s problem is to play for a two pointer or play defense or play for a two pointer with defense.

A match might be some specified number of racks.

In a sand lot (amateur) game the players make any ball on the table for the point but have to call the last shot.

Professional games are played in rotation format.

An addition that might be of interest is a two point shot that allows the player to remain at the table (a transition from the way pool is played today). If the player makes a two rail bank (or kick) on their third shot they earn two points and the right to continue shooting. The game becomes complicarted with the player having to think through their ability, their strategy and their willingness to take a chance. This type of play encourages skill, courage, strategy and pits two players against each other. In this form of play the term "heart" takes on real meaning.

I like these ideas but a limited stay at the table is paramount. You can add some degree of difficulty, including a strategy risk reward system, while still limiting the stay at the table. Two, three and four rail banks, earning even more points etc.

The multiple rail banks adds some uncertainty of excitement to the game, allowing a player to come back from a deficit or to take a greater lead.

Also, on the last shot of the inning, the player must be forced to play an offensive shot and not a safety. The safety battles may be shrewd strategy in one pocket but more than one person will whine about how safeties contribute to boredom.

Norrbacka
06-22-2011, 09:06 AM
Solution:

Both players always shoots alternately
Two Queballs, still alternately shooting


This is a solution, but it wont make the game better or bigger. Do you wanna know why? Because golf, football, tennis, soccer, basketball or whatever big sport dont need a big pool table in order to play. You can practise tennis against a simple wall. You can practise dribbling a basetball out on the streets. You only need an open field to practise some golfshooting. That is why pool is not as big as the other sports. It just has to many demands in order to play.

Paul Schofield
06-22-2011, 09:27 PM
Solution:

Both players always shoots alternately
Two Queballs, still alternately shooting




As ridiculous as this idea may sound, it is this kind of "outside the box" thinking that is needed. Good one. This solution shows that he understands the challenge at hand.

BrokeHustler
06-23-2011, 12:03 AM
Solution:

Both players always shoots alternately
Two Queballs, still alternately shooting


This is a solution, but it wont make the game better or bigger. Do you wanna know why? Because golf, football, tennis, soccer, basketball or whatever big sport dont need a big pool table in order to play. You can practise tennis against a simple wall. You can practise dribbling a basetball out on the streets. You only need an open field to practise some golfshooting. That is why pool is not as big as the other sports. It just has to many demands in order to play.

How About Something Like this? http://youtu.be/FlCVE0OG-tI

Paul Schofield
06-23-2011, 07:36 AM
Solution:

Both players always shoots alternately
Two Queballs, still alternately shooting




This is close to one-and-stop Straight-Pool (which I mentioned earlier in this thread).

Norrbacka
06-23-2011, 09:06 AM
This is close to one-and-stop Straight-Pool (which I mentioned earlier in this thread).

Which page did you post that, would be fun to read.

Paul Schofield
06-23-2011, 08:52 PM
Which page did you post that, would be fun to read.

Sure. It was post #36. I will just copy and paste it here:

I once experimented with what would be on paper the perfect game. I would describe it as 1 and stop straight pool. Play with a full rack of 15 balls and the first player to make 8 wins. You can only make 1 ball and then you give the table up to an opponent. Just imagine the strategy. Here was the problem: Many skills typically used in most games were eliminated. Thinking 2, 3, and 4 balls ahead was renderred moot. Running balls is fun. Being limited to only 1 ball took a lot of the fun out of the game.

Norrbacka
06-24-2011, 10:49 AM
Running balls is fun. Being limited to only 1 ball took a lot of the fun out of the game.

Yeh, I guess thats a very true statement. Gonna try it with a pal though!

Paul Schofield
06-24-2011, 06:59 PM
I can't stress how important interaction is for entertainment value in sports. I want to ask a question. I don't need an answer.

Given a choice, which would you rather watch?

A) Tiger Woods playing solo with no other players on the course, shooting a 62 on a really tough track. Imagine it with tens of thousands of people and multiple cameras and commentators following him all by his lonesome around the golf course.

B) Tiger Woods and Phil Mickelson battling head to head in the match play format. Imagine it with tens of thousands of people and multiple cameras and commentators following the pair around the golf course.

Which of these two scenarios would more people watch? I am trying to get some of you to look at our game a little differently.

Norrbacka
06-25-2011, 09:38 AM
QUOTE

B is my answer.

Paul Schofield
06-27-2011, 12:53 PM
Given a choice, which would you rather watch?

A) Tiger Woods playing solo with no other players on the course, shooting a 62 on a really tough track. Imagine it with tens of thousands of people and multiple cameras and commentators following him all by his lonesome around the golf course.

B) Tiger Woods and Phil Mickelson battling head to head in the match play format. Imagine it with tens of thousands of people and multiple cameras and commentators following the pair around the golf course.

Which of these two scenarios would more people watch? I am trying to get some of you to look at our game a little differently.

To put it in pool terms: If you were strapped to a chair for 3 hours back in time and were forced to watch either one of the following , which would you choose?

A) Mosconi's 526 ball run playing straight-Pool on an oversize 4X8 in Springfield, OH in 1952

B) Bugs Rucker playing One Pocket against Ronnie Allen at the Rack in Detroit in the early 70's (I don't know that this happened. Let's just say that it did.)

My point is that human interaction is a needed component to get the best entertainment and to have the most fun.

AtLarge
06-27-2011, 01:27 PM
To put it in pool terms: If you were strapped to a chair for 3 hours back in time and were forced to watch either one of the following , which would you choose?

A) Mosconi's 526 ball run playing straight-Pool on an oversize 4X8 in Springfield, OH in 1952

B) Bugs Rucker playing One Pocket against Ronnie Allen at the Rack in Detroit in the early 70's (I don't know that this happened. Let's just say that it did.)

My point is that human interaction is a needed component to get the best entertainment and to have the most fun.

Mosconi. Not even close.

crosseyedjoe
06-27-2011, 01:47 PM
To put it in pool terms: If you were strapped to a chair for 3 hours back in time and were forced to watch either one of the following , which would you choose?

A) Mosconi's 526 ball run playing straight-Pool on an oversize 4X8 in Springfield, OH in 1952

B) Bugs Rucker playing One Pocket against Ronnie Allen at the Rack in Detroit in the early 70's (I don't know that this happened. Let's just say that it did.)

My point is that human interaction is a needed component to get the best entertainment and to have the most fun.

What is an oversize 4x8?

AtLarge
06-27-2011, 02:12 PM
What is an oversize 4x8?

It's a table a bit larger than a standard eight-foot table, but still smaller than a nine-foot table.

Ex. If a company's eight footer has a playing surface of 44" x 88", its oversized eight-foot table might be 46" x 92".

Interestingly, Diamond Billiards has established what seems, at last, to be rational sizes: 40x80, 45x90, and 50x100 -- so their 8-foot table has dimensions half way between those of the 7- and 9-foot tables.

Paul Schofield
09-04-2011, 09:17 PM
Thanks for all the comments. I have read this entire thread many times. I said before, if I do what everyone else does, I would have been out of business a long time ago. I try new ideas. Big table pool is in the toilet and I don’t need to do what everyone else does (that got it where it is today). I am going to do something else.

This thread triggered a number of ideas. I will experiment in the coming months and see if any of these ideas are fun.

In this thread, I said that watching a high run in pool was like watching solitaire (cards). One insightful comment was that a pool match is merely two players playing solitaire.

AtLarge
09-04-2011, 10:56 PM
... One insightful comment was that a pool match is merely two players playing solitaire.

Well ... if you want to ignore the defensive aspects.

The Renfro
09-05-2011, 12:20 AM
I can't stress how important interaction is for entertainment value in sports. I want to ask a question. I don't need an answer.

Given a choice, which would you rather watch?

A) Tiger Woods playing solo with no other players on the course, shooting a 62 on a really tough track. Imagine it with tens of thousands of people and multiple cameras and commentators following him all by his lonesome around the golf course.

B) Tiger Woods and Phil Mickelson battling head to head in the match play format. Imagine it with tens of thousands of people and multiple cameras and commentators following the pair around the golf course.

Which of these two scenarios would more people watch? I am trying to get some of you to look at our game a little differently.

you don't need an answer because you already made your decision.... You think that the John Q Public wants to see both players have a chance if they watch pool but that is sooo far from the truth... They want to watch, understand, and identify with the player..... Interest is all about long shots and bad beats..... Defense in pool kills both from a spectators point of view.......

Paul Schofield
09-05-2011, 05:44 AM
you don't need an answer because you already made your decision.... You think that the John Q Public wants to see both players have a chance if they watch pool but that is sooo far from the truth... They want to watch, understand, and identify with the player..... Interest is all about long shots and bad beats..... Defense in pool kills both from a spectators point of view.......

Not at all. One player can demolish another player and that is ok. Big public interest is not about long hard shots. It is about dynamics and interaction between competitors. The public will watch poker in a big way but they won't watch solitaire.

(I think I am repeating myself with this post. This topic has been exhausted. It was good.)

3andstop
09-05-2011, 06:47 AM
It's a very difficult game, taking years of dedication to become proficient and that's not good for the 'want it now' generation.


Here's a copy of what I wrote a long time ago, and the reason I think pool isn't more popular.

-------------------------------------------
Exposure to sports / games is what makes them popular to a large degree along with the ability to enjoy performing them, even if only at a novice level.

Once again take for example bowling. Exposure to the game is a natural. A guy and girl go on a date and decide to go bowling. Within one or two attempts they are both at least able to knock down pins with a REAL chance to see themselves make a strike.

Since it is relatively easy to knock down pins and perhaps strike, it even draws kids, families, couples. The resulting atmosphere is an open, fun laugh and jump enjoyable experience.

Golf is another, and different example. Golf is an outdoor game where spectators and players can enjoy the outdoor environment without feeling inhibited or closed in.

Even if they don't perform well, wives and girlfriends are with their men enjoying a day outdoors. Further, they actually can get a feel of golf in another family type environment with mini-golf, which provides yet another form of exposure to the game.

All these exposures spark interest.

Baseball, while worlds apart from the previous examples, still attracts huge TV and novice involvement. Its both an outdoor game, a family event, and just about anyone can catch a ball in a glove (which is an addictive feeling) as well as swing a bat. You go to enough ball games, feel the breeze, enjoy the excitement in the atmosphere of the stadium, and anyone can get hooked on the sport.

Now take pool. It comes from a seedy past. It certainly is intimidating to walk into a pool room as well. You don't really have a great deal of "your own space" while playing. When I had my poolroom, it was obvious to see newcomers lost for a place to stand, what to hold, or how to act when it wasn't their turn. Newcomers are intimidated by the complexity of the game.

Newcomers often came in slightly larger groups also. Maybe, double dates trying it out. Perhaps for the extra moral support. They stood between tables holding the shaft of the sick with two hands, balancing on the butt end placed on the floor. When it was their turn, they were so uncomfortable that they were happy to wail at a shot quickly just to get back to trying to find a space to stand where no one would notice how badly they had just embarrassed themselves.

Now, add to that, the fact that playing the game itself,for the most part is very frustrating to a beginner. Nothing at all like the open fun feeling from bowling or even golf.

Did you ever try playing opposite handed? Try it, maybe while playing with your eyes closed, which is about the same as a newbie who has no idea where to hit the OB or CB. It won't be long before you get a feel for how most new to the game get christened. Nothing like bowling where they are knocking down pins right away.

How long would most of us play with a Rubic's Cube before we wanted to throw it through a window? It simply is more frustrating than fun. By its very nature and complexity it destroys it's own chances of motivating folks to continue to play.

Unlike miniature golf, the idea isn't to laugh and giggle amongst yourselves when the ball bounce off the Windmill. Rather, you stand there, uncomfortable, holding the stick, feeling people around you look at you like you don't have a clue what your are doing. Its just not a comfortable thing for most to do.

And these days you add to that, ridiculously loud intimidating garbage music and the atmosphere becomes even less appealing to neophytes. With so many other choices of things to do, its no wonder to me that pool is much less popular than other sports.

The only chance is to create better, friendlier atmospheres for people so they can be given half a chance at being comfortable playing.

I always thought a poolroom in an indoor shopping mall, well lit with lots of room and no off the wall ( I use the term loosely) music blaring, would offer a more inviting atmosphere. Maybe even a nice pizza area for folks to come in for a bite and a quick look at folks playing.
------------------------------------

But the very best chance pool has to gain popularity with this current generation is to turn it into an instant fad.

A few movies perhaps, maybe a dancing with the pool player reality show where the first prize is a new Iphone with auto texting features.

Kidding of course, but the point is, for the masses, as the quoted poster stated, the game is too difficult, and additionally, too frustrating and set in a too uncomfortable environment for the masses to take interest in.

CocoboloCowboy
09-05-2011, 07:52 AM
The main reason, in my opinion, that pool is a "dirty" game is because of the people connected with hanging around a pool room. The 2-bit shortstop hustlers.
I like to see balls go in the pockets when I shoot. I am not interested. in "getting good enough to play tournaments"...I just want to rent a table and be LEFT ALONE.
I cant afford to risk money where I am going to have the worst of it....(even if I were to win, the red hots of the room will try to find a way to take it back)
However, when I try to do this, ineveitably here comes someone..."you wanta play some cheap?"
And I always answer..."why?"
The guy is usually taken aback by this remark...and then says something like "you can win something from me...I will bet it up"
And I say...."I have no desire to stand here like a dummy and watch you run balls while I rarely get to shoot at anything and make it go in the pocket. Also I am broke and I dont think anyone in here is going to back me..so now what?"
And then he will leave mumbling about "no gamble nits coming into this room".
People on dates or out for social fun do not want to be near these people. They will watch or participate in poker and will gamble on slot machines, dog tracks, whatever...but they do NOT like pool room bums on the hunt for a sucker.
So as of recently, I carry with me a poster type sign that I masking tape to the wall near the table. On this poster in big red letters is the word NO.
When somebody starts approaching the table, I merely point to the sign...and thats the end of that.
It should be the owner's concern that he/she will lose money from pool time by even allowing those creeps to hang around the place and annoy customers. But in most cases, the owner is too absorbed with picking off some bucks through bookmaking or some other scam so he can buy some more blow or keep his mistress well stroked.
That's why pool is and always will be a beautiful game played by primarily dirty people. This is my opinion..now you can all metaphorically kill me.

Your post makes a lot of sense too me, and the Room/Bar/Sports Bar Owners who are dying. Because the people you talk about are chasing away some of their business. Those Room/Bar/Sports Bar Owners need to wake up and fix the problem.

Also as I have said before Pool, be it the Mens Pro, Female Pro, Senior Division, or Armature Tournaments & League Pool need one set of STANDARDIZED RULES, ONE Governing Body who GUARANTEES MONEY TO BE PAID at ever Pro Level Tournament Level, so no more RENO TYPE FIASCOS take place ever again. Were player gathered in Reno at the Peppermill to compete, pay fees, incur room & travel expenses, etc., and the winners only have expenses receipts to show for their efforts.

Also like I have said before here in the Valley of the Sun, we have like 7 or 8 different LEAGUES NAMED like APA, BCAPL, ACS, TAP AAZ Pool League, and a few more. Wonder if there was just one like years ago before I moved to the Valley of the Sun thing would function better, and the player would share a larger chunk of the end of season payout.

I think small local tournaments would police themselves, as small room who advertise, and don't pay out as advertised would fold because of local player boycotts those who bait and switch.

Will this ever happen. I am not betting any money it will.

Paul Schofield
09-05-2011, 09:30 PM
The main reason, in my opinion, that pool is a "dirty" game is because of the people connected with hanging around a pool room. The 2-bit shortstop hustlers.
It should be the owner's concern that he/she will lose money from pool time by even allowing those creeps to hang around the place and annoy customers.

I think you are speaking more to the business of pool rather than about the game itself.

rrussotwo
09-05-2011, 10:02 PM
Take a game like 9-ball.

Modify the rules so that:

Breaks don't matter
Number of games is (mostly) irrelevant
Each player gets the same opportunities at the table
Negates the need for safety play
Incentivizes lower percentage shots
Eliminates chasing the 9

In other words, make it more like golf.

Here are the rules:

Minimum of nine racks
Players alternate breaks
Players DO NOT leave the table when they miss
Players continue shooting until the rack is run
Misses are tallied and added to their score
Lower scores are better
The lowest possible score is 0
Tie of 0-0 necessitates an additional seven racks
Tie of anything greater than 0 necessitates an additional three racks
After 12 racks, if the players are still tied, a draw is called and players split the purse


These rules can be modified for almost any game excluding one-pocket.

What do you guys think?

chicken ranch
09-06-2011, 12:17 AM
pool with a baseball twist
*round robin format
*1 day or 2 day (for a single round or 2 round event)
*9 innings of pool
*noone plays 2nd inning until all participants have finished 1st inning of play
*the person(s) with the lowest overall score will begin the following round of play
*each inning consisting of playing the ghost in a rack of fifteen ball rotation
*bih after the break
*call your pocket
*there will be two offensive ways of continuing your run at the table;

#1 you must strike the lowest numbered ball first and may call any other ball. examples being a 1-9 combo or multiple ball combo, or carom in the 7 ball (or possibly a carom combination, ticky,etc.) after contacting the lowest numbered ball first, or banking the lowest numbered ball into another ball or balls(again intended ball and intended pocket shall be called).

#2 you do not have to hit the lowest numbered ball on the table first but you do have to make the lowest numbered ball in that shot, also call the pocket that is intended for the lowest numbered ball. examples being, hitting any ball or balls first but calling only the lowest numbered ball and pocket, or caroming off of any ball or balls on the table into the lowest numbered ball on the table calling only the lowest numbered ball and pocket

***these offensive rules would be incorporated for spectators to see how top players handle tricky layouts and help the players with congestive layouts,bad breaks,etc.,and increase run potential.just imagine some of the shots you would see made by top players from time to time!***

*scoring could be something like this.
*a run of 1 to 5 balls=1pt(single)
*" "6 to 10 balls=2pt (double)
*" "11 to 14balls=3pt(triple)
*a run of 15 =4pt(home run)
*2 consecutive 15 ball runs=+1pt.bonus(grand slam)
*3 or more 15 ball runs in succesion=1pt bonus each round
*after a miss bonus resets with player having to have 2 consecutive runs to aquire the "grand slam"bonus again
*tally the score after nine innings any ties result in extra innings with points awarded a little differently (to help finish the tourney)
*something like the tenth inning 1 to 3 balls= 1pt., 4 to6=2 pt., 7 to 9=3,
10 to 12=4, 13 to 14=5,15=6
*and in the chance of another tie every inning that follows point per ball till someone wins
* last but not least balls slopped in will count towards scoring if called shot is made.
* balls slopped in when called shot is missed will not count towards round tally.

chicken ranch
09-06-2011, 01:02 PM
pool with a baseball twist
*round robin format
*1 day or 2 day (for a single round or 2 round event)
*9 innings of pool
*noone plays 2nd inning until all participants have finished 1st inning of play
*the person(s) with the lowest overall score will begin the following round of play
*each inning consisting of playing the ghost in a rack of fifteen ball rotation
*bih after the break
*call your pocket
*you do not have to hit the lowest numbered ball on the table first but you do have to make the lowest numbered ball every shot, also call the pocket that is intended for the lowest numbered ball(incorporated for spectators to see how top players handle tricky layouts and help the players with congestive layouts,bad breaks,etc.,and increase run potential).just imagine some of the shots you would see made by top players from time to time!
*scoring could be something like this.
*a run of 1 to 5 balls=1pt(single)
*" "6 to 10 balls=2pt (double)
*" "11 to 14balls=3pt(triple)
*a run of 15 =4pt(home run)
*2 consecutive 15 ball runs=+1pt.bonus(grand slam)
*3 or more 15 ball runs in succesion=1pt bonus each round
*after a miss bonus resets with player having to have 2 consecutive runs to aquire the bonus again
*tally the score after nine innings any ties result in extra innings with points awarded a little differently (to help finish the tourney)
*something like the tenth inning 1 to 3 balls= 1pt., 4 to6=2 pt., 7 to 9=3,
10 to 12=4, 13 to 14=5,15=6
*and in the chance of another tie every inning that follows point per ball till someone wins

bump for opinions?

boyraks
09-06-2011, 01:25 PM
In golf there are two other constraints.. the weather and the course. The issue with pool is you cannot due anything to these other factors.

Have the opponent shoot b-b's into your ass while you are shooting?

There are plenty of other sports where the opponent has to wait. Ski-jumping, skating, etc.. In straight pool, lets say there is a 150 and out, maybe your opponent should be awarded the same opportunity to tie, forcing a playoff of sorts? You have it in artistic pool, both opponents have chances.

Pool is waining because let's face it, if you don't know the ins and outs it will not interest you. In the spring and summer, a lot of people have alternatives, now with CPU's, PS3's, Wii's, etc.. in the winter people have things to do.

Did you ever think why bowling is more popular than pool? You don't need to run 150 balls, 6 racks of nine ball, etc.. you get a frame, you throw two balls, and then you're done. Have a beer, a hot dog, etc.. your opponent gets the same opportunity and you're back up in 5 minutes. It's non-thinking to a degree. You don't worry about whether your bowling ball is spliced, inlaid, is low deflection, or you're on some magic ball makers 10 year waiting list.

What someone needs to do at ESPN, is show there is more to pool than pool. Do a few segments on cues, how they are made, the collectibility of cues, and pool memorabilia. Do something on tables, how they are made, etc.. Also during a commercial break there should be a 30 second instructional. How to draw, how to follow, how and why on playing position. This way maybe people will at least see there is more to pool than slamming balls into pockets.

JV
Tap tap i wholeheartedly agree. Note also pool is booming in China

chicken ranch
09-06-2011, 03:50 PM
pool with a baseball twist
*round robin format
*1 day or 2 day (for a single round or 2 round event)
*9 innings of pool
*noone plays 2nd inning until all participants have finished 1st inning of play
*the person(s) with the lowest overall score will begin the following round of play
*each inning consisting of playing the ghost in a rack of fifteen ball rotation
*bih after the break
*call your pocket
*there will be two offensive ways of continuing your run at the table;

#1 you must strike the lowest numbered ball first and may call any other ball. examples being a 1-9 combo or multiple ball combo, or carom in the 7 ball (or possibly a carom combination, ticky,etc.) after contacting the lowest numbered ball first, or banking the lowest numbered ball into another ball or balls(again intended ball and intended pocket shall be called).

#2 you do not have to hit the lowest numbered ball on the table first but you do have to make the lowest numbered ball in that shot, also call the pocket that is intended for the lowest numbered ball. examples being, hitting any ball or balls first but calling only the lowest numbered ball and pocket, or caroming off of any ball or balls on the table into the lowest numbered ball on the table calling only the lowest numbered ball and pocket

***these offensive rules would be incorporated for spectators to see how top players handle tricky layouts and help the players with congestive layouts,bad breaks,etc.,and increase run potential.just imagine some of the shots you would see made by top players from time to time!***

*scoring could be something like this.
*a run of 1 to 5 balls=1pt(single)
*" "6 to 10 balls=2pt (double)
*" "11 to 14balls=3pt(triple)
*a run of 15 =4pt(home run)
*2 consecutive 15 ball runs=+1pt.bonus(grand slam)
*3 or more 15 ball runs in succesion=1pt bonus each round
*after a miss bonus resets with player having to have 2 consecutive runs to aquire the "grand slam"bonus again
*tally the score after nine innings any ties result in extra innings with points awarded a little differently (to help finish the tourney)
*something like the tenth inning 1 to 3 balls= 1pt., 4 to6=2 pt., 7 to 9=3,
10 to 12=4, 13 to 14=5,15=6
*and in the chance of another tie every inning that follows point per ball till someone wins
* last but not least balls slopped in will count towards scoring if called shot is made.
* balls slopped in when called shot is missed will not count towards round tally.

bump for opinions of this game
(c) will 2011:D
(

rrussotwo
09-06-2011, 06:28 PM
Take a game like 9-ball.

Modify the rules so that:

Breaks don't matter
Number of games is (mostly) irrelevant
Each player gets the same opportunities at the table
Negates the need for safety play
Incentivizes lower percentage shots
Eliminates chasing the 9

In other words, make it more like golf.

Here are the rules:

Minimum of nine racks
Players alternate breaks
Players DO NOT leave the table when they miss
Players continue shooting until the rack is run
Misses are tallied and added to their score
Lower scores are better
The lowest possible score is 0
Tie of 0-0 necessitates an additional seven racks
Tie of anything greater than 0 necessitates an additional three racks
After 12 racks, if the players are still tied, a draw is called and players split the purse


These rules can be modified for almost any game excluding one-pocket.

What do you guys think?

The Chinchilla
09-06-2011, 09:47 PM
bump for opinions of this game
(c) will 2011:D
(

I think there are no opinions because this stuff is ludicrous.

Paul Schofield
09-06-2011, 10:03 PM
I think there are no opinions because this stuff is ludicrous.

This stuff is no more ludicrous than what we do right now. Pool is kind of silly any way. It's just fun.

Paul Schofield
09-07-2011, 06:25 PM
Take a game like 9-ball.

Modify the rules so that:

Breaks don't matter
Number of games is (mostly) irrelevant
Each player gets the same opportunities at the table
Negates the need for safety play
Incentivizes lower percentage shots
Eliminates chasing the 9

In other words, make it more like golf.

Here are the rules:

Minimum of nine racks
Players alternate breaks
Players DO NOT leave the table when they miss
Players continue shooting until the rack is run
Misses are tallied and added to their score
Lower scores are better
The lowest possible score is 0
Tie of 0-0 necessitates an additional seven racks
Tie of anything greater than 0 necessitates an additional three racks
After 12 racks, if the players are still tied, a draw is called and players split the purse


These rules can be modified for almost any game excluding one-pocket.

What do you guys think?

I am being redundant but here it goes. The pool playing public has shown only anecdotal interest in playing scored pool games (Bowliards, Equal Offense etc). People lose interest in them quickly and go back to the interactive games (Eight-Ball, Nine-Ball etc). If it works for bowling and golf, why aren't scored games a big success in pool? I don't have the answer but I can tell you that they have been promoted in many shapes and many forms over the last 35 years. To date, no scored game has taken hold.

Delusional
09-07-2011, 06:39 PM
I say play 15 ball rotation with no safes. Everyone goes for everything. If you run 1 through 15 maybe you get an extra win or something. Both players will get their chance and there will be some Great offense.

CreeDo
09-08-2011, 01:27 PM
The secret to fun in most games is to have a little... just the right amount... of unfairness. This applies in everything from chess to this week's hot fighting game. Games like 9 ball continue to be popular because of the unfairness... ever beat up some scrub in 8 ball over and over, and have him say "let's switch to 9 ball, I'm better at 9 ball anyway. That's my game."? And statistically the unfairness will allow him to win a few he didn't otherwise deserve. It's not that he's better at an otherwise harder game. But in his mind he is, so he keeps coming back. If you eliminate the unfairness in the game, he'll just get tired of losing and quit.

I don't object to these unique rules if two friends want to play this way to find who's the better player or throw some variety into the mix. But they're in no danger of catching on :/

Paul Schofield
09-08-2011, 07:13 PM
The secret to fun in most games is to have a little... just the right amount... of unfairness. This applies in everything from chess to this week's hot fighting game.

I could not agree more. The magic "F" word is not FAIR. The magic "F" word is FUN. Equally unfair can be much more fun than equally fair. Anyway, I have often said "The harder you try to make things fair, the more unfair they can actually become."

We really have got to be careful what we do to our pool games. We can take the fun right out of them. Go get a novice interested player and show him how much fun it is playing called-shot Ten-Ball on a table with tiny pockets. I scratch my head and wonder what everyone is thinking.

Paul Schofield
10-04-2012, 08:19 PM
It’s time to resurrect this thread. You can throw this one on the very top of the heap of “What’s wrong with pool”. I find many of the thoughts posted here to be insightful.

It’s fun to think about these things. I will try again. I will keep it simple.

POOL’S DYNAMIC IS BAD. Pool is sterile. There is little human interaction. As a matter of fact, interaction is discouraged and considered impolite and unsportsmanlike. One player doing all the shooting while his opponent poses “sphinx like” is a problem for pool. It is a problem for the participants and it is a problem for an audience.

Positive human interaction is a product of the rules of a game. Just think about golf and bowling for a minute and all the good interactive opportunities there are. We could never have that in any of our current games. The rules and structure of our games are just too contentious.

I take special interest in any new games that are put forward. I don’t look at how challenging a new game is. I look to see if there is a new human dynamic. Inside the dynamic is where the bulk of the fun and entertainment is.

Renegade
10-05-2012, 02:58 AM
I agree that pool is one of the few games that you can lose without ever playing or getting any kind of a shot at playing.

Perfect games are difficult. Rarely does an opponent not get a chance at the table. That said......

To take that element out of the game and make a fair playing field, I used to think about a giant pin-setter like in bowling (s'pose in pool in would be a ball-setter). I have up-graded my thought as the computer age came about.

So, One player breaks the balls and a laser scans the table (I think of it as a big bar code scanner like a medical imaging device) and precisely remembers where every ball is. The breaker then tries to run the rack. Maybe the breaker gets a point for every ball made plus a bonus for completing the run-out. The computer then shows the referee where the balls were after the break and the opponent gets the same chance. The break would be alternating.

We now have a game with equal opportunity. The players start with the same lay-out, although they may play the pattern differently. Easy enough to add "no-luck" rules for the pros. It's all offense. It's about making the shot that your opponent misses. The better shot-maker, that day, will win just like in golf.

Can you see the TV with a split screen showing how the first player played the run while the opponent is making their run? Strengths and weaknesses would show up pretty quick. Missed shapes, breakouts, different approaches and patterns could be analyzed.

I am looking for someone with the expertise to make a prototype. I would think that with today's technology that it is possible.

Note: it could be used for almost any cuesport game (with some modification of rules) on any table with the most glaring exception of one-pocket.

C'mon guys, give me some constructive feedback, good or bad.

Now this is a good idea!!! It would be interesting to see how different players, e.g. efren vs. souquet, would attack a lay-out.

With today's technology (see: pool playing robot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AENJxqR0g48)), this can easily be done.

CJ Wiley
10-05-2012, 03:16 AM
It’s not rocket science. All one has to do is pick out the common components of all successful sports and then identify what is missing in pool. Pool has a “FATAL FLAW”. Pool has its own glass ceiling.

Here is the “FATAL FLAW”: A player is entitled to play on offence and score without limit while an opponent sits idly without influence. The combination of these components is not a recipe for success. All sports know that this is unacceptable. No successful legitimate sport has this structure. This current structure of pool mirrors a video game, not a sport. Play Pac Man and make your opponent sit and watch you clear screens. Play pool and make your opponent sit and watch you run balls/racks.

Take note of the following: a 240,000 straight rail billiard run, a run of 622 balkline billiards, a run of 31 three cushion billiards, a run of 4137 points in English Billiards, a 526 ball run in straight pool, an 18 pack in bar-box nine-ball, an 11 pack in nine-ball on a big-table. Where are these games now? Are these examples of successful games with viable futures? All these games are evidence of failed attempts to come to terms with the “FATAL FLAW”. Players get good so let’s make the game harder. Is Ten Ball with tiny pockets the answer to improving interest in the game? I don’t think so.

Baseball, football, basketball, golf, bowling, and other successful sports have written into their rules, regular and predictable opportunities for players/teams to participate. This makes for viable competition and result in popular successful sports. Pool needs to look inward at its structure and look for ways to do the same. The fix would send pool’s evolution in an entirely different direction. Evolution takes a long time and pool is light years away from being ready for prime time. If the “FATAL FLAW” was fixed, I think it is very possible that over time, one new game would emerge that would have the broad based appeal needed so that pool could join all the other successful sports.

I don't know if it's been mentioned, but I've spent time with Don Owen lately and he's invented a Game that Solves ALL the problems mentioned above. I had some suggestions to "tweak" the game, but overall it's a Great game to give each player the same opportunities in a very competitive format. imho CJ WILEY 'The Game is the Teacher'

krupa
10-05-2012, 06:57 AM
It’s time to resurrect this thread. You can throw this one on the very top of the heap of “What’s wrong with pool”. I find many of the thoughts posted here to be insightful.

It’s fun to think about these things. I will try again. I will keep it simple.

POOL’S DYNAMIC IS BAD. Pool is sterile. There is little human interaction. As a matter of fact, interaction is discouraged and considered impolite and unsportsmanlike. One player doing all the shooting while his opponent poses “sphinx like” is a problem for pool. It is a problem for the participants and it is a problem for an audience.

Positive human interaction is a product of the rules of a game. Just think about golf and bowling for a minute and all the good interactive opportunities there are. We could never have that in any of our current games. The rules and structure of our games are just too contentious.

I take special interest in any new games that are put forward. I don’t look at how challenging a new game is. I look to see if there is a new human dynamic. Inside the dynamic is where the bulk of the fun and entertainment is.

There's a book called "300 ways to play billiards". There are no alternatives in there!?

As for comparisons between bowling/golf and pool, I think they're entirely invalid. Otherwise, I could say, "The problem with golf is that the other guy isn't allowed to play defense. In hockey, you have a goalie that is protecting his net; you don't have that in golf and therefore golf has a fatal flaw." Basically all you're saying is "these things over here which are popular are different than this thing over here which isn't as popular, so we need to make this thing more like that thing." Well maybe bowling is more popular, but who the hell watches bowling? Who even bowls that much anymore? Does bowling afficionados have forums where they say, "The problem with bowling is that you only get two chances to knock all the pins down."

Also, you talk about "sphinx-like" opponents in pool... well what is the opponent in golf or bowling doing while the other guy is playing? Sitting/standing quietly to one side waiting for his turn.

As has been repeated so so so often in the past, pool is a participatory sport, not much of a spectator sport. The level of play that keeps an opponent in the seat the whole time is pretty much unattainable for the Common Man and therefore irrelevant to the argument. Start people on 8-ball, then when they can play better, show them rotation games.

You're trying to introduce a MASSIVE paradigm shift which is, I think, doomed to failure because running multiple balls is PURE PLEASURE and taking that away from players is, I think, more fatal than any other suggestion I've heard.

CreeDo
10-05-2012, 07:01 AM
Games like balkline were obviously broken which is why they kept changing the rules... being able to score thousands puts everyone to sleep.

What you described earlier as a fatal flaw is not a typical experience for either the player or the fan. You're talking about known world records. Those are a one-in-a-million experience. They're not what joe schmoe sees when he turns on ESPN2 to watch some pool. If 11 packs were an everyday thing, then I'd agree we'd need to change the game, just as they changed balkline.


A more typical (but still tremendous) display of skill might be 150 in straight pool, or 6 pack in 8/9/10 ball. And those are still pretty rare. I think they're something the average joe would be amazed to see.

When Earl was shooting his 10/11 pack for the million dollar prize (on tight pockets), the crowd was going apeshit. They were not bored, they were not sad that the opponent didn't get a chance to shoot.
It didn't hurt there was a million on the line.

---

As for the sterile interaction...

Golf is successful. This is what I see on golf on TV: Tiger sets up his drive. He whacks it. Next is a shot of him walking along beside his caddy. Later, we see him lining up his next shot or putt. He sinks it. He pumps his fist, or more often just raises one hand and nods. We cut to the next golfer.

How much interaction just happened between him and the crowd, or the other players?

Snooker does just fine, and the opponent sits absolutely still and doesn't talk during the other guy's run. The audience might cheer after a shot, or even between every shot, but they are asked to settle down and thrown out if they refuse. They keep quiet during the actual shot, just as the crowd does in golf.

I don't think the lack of interaction is at the heart of what prevents pool from getting on TV or being more popular in general. Pool can't be the nba or nfl. It can't be poker either.

It might try to be golf but part of golf's appeal is how challenging it looks.... they use a violent yet somehow controlled motion to hit a tiny ball 1000 feet, or a perfect putt to sink it from 20 feet, which is amazing to dudes like me who have never hit a ball. Just getting the ball within spitting distance is a an athletic challenge.

That's pool's inherent flaw I think. Nothing about it looks that difficult. Hitting the same tiny area with a three times in a row with a dart is tough. Hitting a ball 1000 yards is tough. Hitting a thin 7 foot cut shot? I did that last night.

the kidd
10-05-2012, 07:07 AM
All of these table games are player INDOORS.

krupa
10-05-2012, 07:18 AM
It might try to be golf but part of golf's appeal is how challenging it looks.... they use a violent yet somehow controlled motion to hit a tiny ball 1000 feet, or a perfect putt to sink it from 20 feet, which is amazing to dudes like me who have never hit a ball. Just getting the ball within spitting distance is a an athletic challenge.

That's pool's inherent flaw I think. Nothing about it looks that difficult. Hitting the same tiny area with a three times in a row with a dart is tough. Hitting a ball 1000 yards is tough. Hitting a thin 7 foot cut shot? I did that last night.

absolutely!

duckie
10-05-2012, 07:27 AM
Interesting post from the person that started no conflict rules 9 ball because of the players interaction.

The fatal flaw is the lack of a long term view on growing pool for the everyday pool player. Has anyone asked what prevents that border line player from going pro?

The IPT format was good. The execution was not. This is about when I returned to pool and was excited that the IPT was happening cause this gave me something to shoot for.

This is when I got my education about the real world of pro pool. And there has not been anything close that has come along that peaked my interest in trying the pro thing like the IPT.

See, believe what you will, I'm that borderline player. The current pro levels tourneys format have not gotten my attention like the IPT format.

I like 9 ft tables, call 8 ball, 8 on the break is spotted. I do not care for 9 ball or 10 ball nor 1 pocket. And yes I can play them well, but 8 ball along with 14.1 are a very good test of a players overall skills.

But hey, just one voice in the din.

swisslife77
10-05-2012, 07:42 AM
Ok, here's my 2 cents:

all games you're trying to compare to (golf, snooker, etc etc) they have something different:
THEY ALL HAVE ONE SET OF RULES, ONLY!!!

So, when the common man is thinking about golf, snooker, soccer, rugby, etc etc, he automatically knows what's about!!
When talking about pool , next question is: ok, wich game??

So, personally I think that's "tha problem" (admitting there is one!!)

So many specialities helps for the entertainement, but not for the mass popularity.

Ex: snooker is snooker! One game, one set of rules and ONE World championship

Same for golf and lots of other "succesful sports"

Pool? Nope!

So, you can be the "world champion" in 9 or 10 ball, but does it really means anything to a 14.1 player?
And same way around!

I think the lack of "credibility" lays in the definition of the sport!!
Each mentioned sport is ONE
Pool is multiple!

Beside that, it's perceived as easier.
As CreeDo sayed, looking Tiger launching a ball 1000 ft away, and hitting the green, or watching Ronnie making a 147 looks "impossible" for the average man, and keeps people watching, hoping to see another "special"

Looking reyes making 3 4 or 5 racks , well, I know others can make, I do not need TV !! And I can run 2 or 3 racks my own!!! (if lucky!! lol)

I think pool is great, but to get to the next level, mosltly need a new game (don't know which) which must look more challenging, and on which everybody agrees!!

There are too many games, and too many rules for each game! It's confusing!!

Just my opinion.

Have a nice weekend!! :-)

71vega
10-05-2012, 08:03 AM
I like pool just as it is - at the same time I am not a young guy and I don't play video games, computer games or watch a lot of TV. It's obvious to me that there is a generational difference in interests - not unlike a lot of other well-worn activities. I'm a member of the American Legion - it's the same there. Mostly all a bunch of Viet Nam vets and older with an occasional sprinkling of Gulf War vets. The Legion Riders draw a lot more of the younger vets but they have a common biker-club theme and lots of Harleys. So, what would the "Harley Davidson" equivalent of a new pool game be like? Something much faster with offence and defense at the same time. How about this: Both players have pre-determined balls – let’s say the same goal as 8-ball. Each guy has his own cue ball and they break at the same time on the same table. Now it's a race to see who runs out first. You can only disturb the other guy's shot with one of your object balls - not a direct hit by your cue ball. As the two contestants are running around the table, body checking is permissible - somewhat like hockey. The floors would be padded of course. There would have to be a referee or two and the first guy to sink the 8-ball wins. The game could work with 9 and 10 ball as well. It would run a lot longer and there would be more full contact but you gotta admit - great action! ESPN would be all over it!

Paul Schofield
10-05-2012, 09:28 PM
I like pool just as it is - at the same time I am not a young guy and I don't play video games, computer games or watch a lot of TV. It's obvious to me that there is a generational difference in interests - not unlike a lot of other well-worn activities. I'm a member of the American Legion - it's the same there. Mostly all a bunch of Viet Nam vets and older with an occasional sprinkling of Gulf War vets. The Legion Riders draw a lot more of the younger vets but they have a common biker-club theme and lots of Harleys. So, what would the "Harley Davidson" equivalent of a new pool game be like? Something much faster with offence and defense at the same time. How about this: Both players have pre-determined balls – let’s say the same goal as 8-ball. Each guy has his own cue ball and they break at the same time on the same table. Now it's a race to see who runs out first. You can only disturb the other guy's shot with one of your object balls - not a direct hit by your cue ball. As the two contestants are running around the table, body checking is permissible - somewhat like hockey. The floors would be padded of course. There would have to be a referee or two and the first guy to sink the 8-ball wins. The game could work with 9 and 10 ball as well. It would run a lot longer and there would be more full contact but you gotta admit - great action! ESPN would be all over it!

Congratulations! This is the best post in this entire thread. This is for everyone who wants to see pocket billiards grow and succeed. As outrageous, over the top, and extreme your suggestion is, I think the concept behind it is dead on.

I don't think that pool needs to go to these lengths described in the above post to get the job done. I do think that something has to be done to engage the idle opponent. Just the slightest adjustment to one of our short games could change the entire dynamic of pool. Our game needs to be more fun in order to compete in 2012.

My hat is off to you, Sir!

CJ Wiley
10-06-2012, 12:02 AM
Congratulations! This is the best post in this entire thread. This is for everyone who wants to see pocket billiards grow and succeed. As outrageous, over the top, and extreme your suggestion is, I think the concept behind it is dead on.

I don't think that pool needs to go to these lengths described in the above post to get the job done. I do think that something has to be done to engage the idle opponent. Just the slightest adjustment to one of our short games could change the entire dynamic of pool. Our game needs to be more fun in order to compete in 2012.

My hat is off to you, Sir!

It's funny to me when I hear people talk about the Game of pool "not being good enough to be successful"....Like I told my group last night....it's never been pool's fault it's not doing well....it's like blaming Steak for a town never having a great Steak House when all they ever served was hamburger. LoL 'The Game is the Teacher'

Slh
10-06-2012, 01:00 AM
If pool is played correctly it looks very easy. This is the main problem with pool. IMHO.
A rack run by Earl Strickland looks really easy and this is not exciting for the average person. Last month I was watching a 9 ball match in dvd. My father joyned me for some minutes and then left. At a point Reyes got un-line on a shot and he had to let the cueball travel 3 or 4 rails to get back in- line. That was a great shot, but my father didn't react. Then Reyes makes an hanger cross side bank and my father said that was a great shot. The average non pool person doesn't know what cueball controll is. An example is the famous "He is not that good, he didn't have any hard shot"!
I explained to my mother how hitting different portion of the cueball affect the cb reation and she was surprised. She thought players were getting position only by hitting the cueball softer or harder. She also didn't know what 9 ball is.
My father, instead, watch snooker with me. He is amazed how the players can pot these long shots in such small pockets. He doesn't have any pool/snooker/billiard knowledge but he enjoy watching snooker because it looks hard. When you are watching a 147 you know you are watching something really special. It's not the case in pool where big packages are stopped because of the stupid breaking rules ( break from the box, 3 balls passing the headstring,ecc). The truth is that pool is, at this moment, a very easy game for the pros. This is why you hear of huge packages run against the ghost with bih after the break. There is a rumor where Ralf Souquet run 25 racks of 9 ball against the ghost.
Basically a 9 ball match beetween two champions is a coin toss and the winner will be who gets more rolls.

CJ Wiley
10-06-2012, 01:09 AM
I could not agree more. The magic "F" word is not FAIR. The magic "F" word is FUN. Equally unfair can be much more fun than equally fair. Anyway, I have often said "The harder you try to make things fair, the more unfair they can actually become."

We really have got to be careful what we do to our pool games. We can take the fun right out of them. Go get a novice interested player and show him how much fun it is playing called-shot Ten-Ball on a table with tiny pockets. I scratch my head and wonder what everyone is thinking.

Maybe the older demographic is overlooked. I know many in their 60's, 70's, and even 80's that would love to have a better reason to play pool...it's a great game for your Mind, Body and Spirit and can be played by everyone including all ethnicities, gender's and ages.. truly a sport/game for EVERYONE to enjoy... the Master Game -'The Game is the Teacher'

Paul Schofield
10-06-2012, 10:45 AM
It's funny to me when I hear people talk about the Game of pool "not being good enough to be successful"....Like I told my group last night....it's never been pool's fault it's not doing well....it's like blaming Steak for a town never having a great Steak House when all they ever served was hamburger. LoL 'The Game is the Teacher'

I appreciate your metaphor but I respectfully disagree.

You speak as though pool "always was and always will be" (your Steak reference). That is just not the case. The game is not the teacher. People devised this game and it is anything anybody wants it to be. It is the people's tool. Billiards has been in a state of evolution for 150 years. That evolution has never moved quicker than the last 20 years. Evolution is not going to stop now. It is survival of the fittest (or become extinct).

Pocket Billiards is in trouble. I, for one, think that pool has evolved itself into a corner. The world has changed. The world's favorite sports and recreation have become highly interactive. Pool needs to look in this direction. (Look at the success of the team concept.)

I read over and over "If only someone would promote this game properly, start youth programs, run events geared to the less skilled player." I have tons of experience here. The public has spoken. They say "We have tried your game and there is other more fun stuff to do. We are going to do something else."

Evolution needs to happen.

(Please note: I am speaking about Pocket Billiards and not miniature-pool played at the corner bar.)

thekaiserman
10-06-2012, 11:07 AM
pool has no flaws IMO Its oerfect as is

Dave Nelson
10-06-2012, 01:06 PM
I think your catch 22 then would be that you can not keep the aspect of running balls AND eliminate the aspect of your opponent sitting. It wont happen.

I think my offensive/defensive game would work, you wouldn't be thinking multi-ball runs. but you emphasis the offense and defensive nature of the game. Each player would be shooting often, and would get equal opportunity to play offense and defense.

You lag and the winner picks offense or defense first.

Come on, you gotta admit its intriguing...like I said, the more I think of it, the more I like it.

Carl

It sounds good to me. Write out your rules and let us try it.

Dave Nelson

justadub
10-07-2012, 05:16 AM
I agree that to the average layperson, one who doesn't play pool, the pro's make it look so simple that it is boring.

The average layperson doesn't understand the skill it takes to make it look that easy. One comment I have heard is "those shots are all easy, I can make those shots", and he is right, most of us can make most of the shots you see in a rack run on tv. At least potting the ball, that is....

What the layperson doesn't understand is how difficult it is to get the position on the next shot, and the next one, as well as the pro's do it. That part of the game is lost on the casual viewer.

I don't have an answer. I'm just commenting on why pool is such a difficult "watch" for those who don't play the game.

CJ Wiley
10-07-2012, 07:42 AM
I appreciate your metaphor but I respectfully disagree.

You speak as though pool "always was and always will be" (your Steak reference). That is just not the case. The game is not the teacher. People devised this game and it is anything anybody wants it to be. It is the people's tool. Billiards has been in a state of evolution for 150 years. That evolution has never moved quicker than the last 20 years. Evolution is not going to stop now. It is survival of the fittest (or become extinct).

Pocket Billiards is in trouble. I, for one, think that pool has evolved itself into a corner. The world has changed. The world's favorite sports and recreation have become highly interactive. Pool needs to look in this direction. (Look at the success of the team concept.)

I read over and over "If only someone would promote this game properly, start youth programs, run events geared to the less skilled player." I have tons of experience here. The public has spoken. They say "We have tried your game and there is other more fun stuff to do. We are going to do something else."

Evolution needs to happen.

(Please note: I am speaking about Pocket Billiards and not miniature-pool played at the corner bar.)

Speaking in terms of the "Game" having enough draw to create a loyal viewing audience is never going to happen. The reason I can say the with such certainly is it doesn't happen in any other sport or game. Football, Basketball, Wrestling, Hockey, Boxing and Golf have all had their periods of poor ratings. The common denominator that always saved them was PEOPLE (Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Larry B., Mike T., Jimmy C. John M., IMG Group, Don King, Barry Bonds, etc.).

Without changing or tinkering with the Game its self. Pool in the early to mid 90s was getting 1 ratings (one million households) up against just about any other sport, even the super bowl pool did well. (I played a match in front of 2.8 Million Viewers).

This was the time that professional marketing agencies, professional acting coaches, and professional TV producers should have been brought into the picture. However, IT DID NOT HAPPEN and the ones "in control" thought they could do it themselves without the help of professional sources of talent. This failed then and it's failing now. It's NEVER been the Game's fault it's not received positive publicity and been popular (since The Color of Money).

I'll debate that with ANYBODY in a public forum. I know the inside story of what happened in those "key years" and it's not complicated what has to happen to turn this situation around. And like the saying goes "keep dong the same thing and you'll keep getting the same results". This is especially true and it's also a sign of the insanity of the methodology.

FIRST there must be an emotional attachment generated for the Players before the game will catch on. People lead the Games, the Games DO NOT lead the people. It's been true for other sports/games and it's true for Pocket Billiards.

I have been on the inside of Nascar, PGA, and NBA through agents, players, coaches and marketing experts and they all say the same thing. "Develop an emotional attachment between the players and the public and their fans enthusiastically watch them play".

That's the "filet mignon" of my previous metaphor and the hamburger is what we've done instead (the past 20 years). The good news is we have the ability to change, if we face reality and stop trying to make the cart draw the horse. The Professional Players MUST be put in a position to draw the Game into the public eye. There is no other way. imho CLICK TO SEE SOME CHARACTERS IN POOL (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39MuHjSerYQ)

Paul Schofield
10-07-2012, 10:23 AM
FIRST there must be an emotional attachment generated for the Players before the game will catch on. CLICK TO SEE SOME CHARACTERS IN POOL (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39MuHjSerYQ)

Honestly, how do you think this happens? Our current rules and games do not have opportunities for camaraderie or to develop a relationship with an opponent or the public. Our games are sterile and non-interactive. The structure of the games and the competition need to show the character and personalities of the competitors.

As solitaire as golf is, there are many natural opportunities between shots for human interaction. They have done a great job of humanizing and making golf a very social activity.

I will say it again: I run lots of balls while you sit statue like does not work in 2012. There is other more fun stuff to watch and to do.

CJ Wiley
10-07-2012, 10:57 AM
Honestly, how do you think this happens? Our current rules and games do not have opportunities for camaraderie or to develop a relationship with an opponent or the public. Our games are sterile and non-interactive. The structure of the games and the competition need to show the character and personalities of the competitors.

As solitaire as golf is, there are many natural opportunities between shots for human interaction. They have done a great job of humanizing and making golf a very social activity.

I will say it again: I run lots of balls while you sit statue like does not work in 2012. There is other more fun stuff to watch and to do.

Of course this will happen...no one has tried anything different in many years except for the Mosconi Cup and it's the best thing on TV. I stepped away from pool for 13 years and when I came back it was worse than it was in the mid 90's. Everything else has changed, but pool remains the same, how ironic, and how unfortunate for the players involved.

Blaming the Pro's for not behaving "properly" is like blaming the symphony for not playing well without the Director or blaming the Actors for not acting well without the Director.....the PLayers NEED A DIRECTOR.

Some people blame the Players only because they're on center stage, in the public eye and a likely target for criticism (while critics sit behind their computer screens)....and that is not how you get positive results...they must be managed and directed or they act just like anyone else would be in their position...frustrated about not getting the proper management and direction.

I know everyone's upset about this new Pro Tour, but at least they're trying to do the right thing (it may be their only choice right now). I'm amazed they've held up this long without any real help in organization, staffing, or planning. They're just treading water until the "ship comes in" and I have a feeling it WILL come in. The Game will ultimately triumph, I sincerely believe that. 'The Game is the Teacher'

Paul Schofield
10-07-2012, 06:21 PM
Blaming the Pro's for not behaving "properly" is like blaming the symphony for not playing well without the Director or blaming the Actors for not acting well without the Director.....the PLayers NEED A DIRECTOR.

Some people blame the Players only because they're on center stage, in the public eye and a likely target for criticism (while critics sit behind their computer screens)....and that is not how you get positive results...they must be managed and directed or they act just like anyone else would be in their position...frustrated about not getting the proper management and direction.

I don't know where this all came from. I can't find a post on this thread that blames the pros for anything. I certainly don't. I am pointing my finger squarely at the game. The game has to be right for everything to fall into place.

I just keep doing what I do. That is to try to keep pocket billiards fresh and alive in my home town. I consider and experiment with most every new idea I see and read about (and can think up).

realkingcobra
10-07-2012, 06:39 PM
There IS a way to straighten pool out, not one of you have touched on it as of yet, and what I know, I'm not saying right now;)

CJ Wiley
10-08-2012, 08:31 AM
[QUOTE=Paul Schofield;3802410]I don't know where this all came from. I can't find a post on this thread that blames the pros for anything. I certainly don't. I am pointing my finger squarely at the game. The game has to be right for everything to fall into place.

It's easy to say The Game has a "Fatal Flaw", and that's just an opinion. CLICK to Hear About Other Sports "Changes" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3XUaUQD51c)
I believe that Game is Perfect. It's not like golf, baseball, or football where you get the same amount of innings, holes, or downs. It's like BOXING where you know you have to perform or you may get knocked out. Pocket Billiards is the "Master Game" and we want to help The Game be the Best it can be. the Game doesn't want "gimmick cues" or equipment, it just wants us to make the rules so it's as challenging and skillful as possible, then The Game wants us to hire REAL PROFESSIONALS to work on the advertising and marketing of the Game ON TV. It's like the old saying "out of sight, out of mind", without an entertaining pool show on TV the Game will continue to struggle.....and The Game doesn't deserve to struggle, it deserves the same opportunity as other games/sports have enjoyed.....the Game is PERFECT, and it's up to us to appreciate and showcase that perfection. 'The Game is the Teacher'https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/540867_10151441244963765_622009138_n.jpg

GrandTourPromo
10-08-2012, 12:46 PM
[QUOTE=Paul Schofield;3802410]I don't know where this all came from. I can't find a post on this thread that blames the pros for anything. I certainly don't. I am pointing my finger squarely at the game. The game has to be right for everything to fall into place.

It's easy to say The Game has a "Fatal Flaw", and that's just an opinion. CLICK to Hear About Other Sports "Changes" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3XUaUQD51c)
I believe that Game is Perfect. It's not like golf, baseball, or football where you get the same amount of innings, holes, or downs. It's like BOXING where you know you have to perform or you may get knocked out.(...).the Game is PERFECT, and it's up to us to appreciate and showcase that perfection. 'The Game is the Teacher'https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/540867_10151441244963765_622009138_n.jpg

I agree with CJ here when he states that 'the Game is PERFECT.' I agree with Paul's concern that something needs to change.

I propose that anyone seeking a solution to this problem just consider the contribution that Grand Tour Promotions is offering.

Here's a link to our homepage.
https://sites.google.com/site/grandtourpromotions/

I won't describe our contribution ITT (I encourage you to follow the link above.)

But I will subscribe to this thread to see what the followers of this thread have to say in response. If anyone has any questions/comments, either in support or otherwise, please know they won't be ignored.

Robert Bowman, President
Grand Tour Promotions

realkingcobra
10-08-2012, 03:46 PM
there was a 10 ball tournament held which was limited to 64 Professional players only, which was single elimination, but the pay scale was 64-33 $500 each, 32-17 $1,000 each, 16-9 $2,000 each, 8-5 $4,000 each, 4-3 $8,000 each, 2nd paid $16,000, and first place paid $32,000, total pay out being $128,000;)

And what if everyone who wanted to play in this tournament was required to to take a skill level test in which ONLY the top 64 scores would be allowed to compete;)

What if the tournament format was a race to 3 hours of competition, and there was 3 different ways to win, 1st, be ahead on wins at the end of 3 hours, 2nd, be the first to win 25 games, 3rd, gain a 15 game lead on your opponent for an early win by knock out;)

What if the skill level test was having to play out 20 full racks of balls scoring 1 point per ball for the first 10 balls played in any order, and 2 points per ball for the last 5 balls made, but they had to be played in rotation, and any balls made on the break were worth 1 extra point, and you only had one chance to clear the rack from where the cue ball lay after the break;) If a person ran all 20 racks, never made a ball on the break, a perfect score would be 400 points, and what of this skill level test had to be performed on a Diamond 10ft ProAm;) and cost $150 to take this sanctioned test, and had to be repeated each time before one of these ''PROFESSIONALS ONLY'' tournaments took place, and as a start, there were 8 of these events held per year;)

Glen

CJ Wiley
10-08-2012, 03:50 PM
there was a 10 ball tournament held which was limited to 64 Professional players only, which was single elimination, but the pay scale was 64-33 $500 each, 32-17 $1,000 each, 16-9 $2,000 each, 8-5 $4,000 each, 4-3 $8,000 each, 2nd paid $16,000, and first place paid $32,000, total pay out being $128,000;)

And what if everyone who wanted to play in this tournament was required to to take a skill level test in which ONLY the top 64 scores would be allowed to compete;)

What if the tournament format was a race to 3 hours of competition, and there was 3 different ways to win, 1st, be ahead on wins at the end of 3 hours, 2nd, be the first to win 25 games, 3rd, gain a 15 game lead on your opponent for an early win by knock out;)

What if the skill level test was having to play out 20 full racks of balls scoring 1 point per ball for the first 10 balls played in any order, and 2 points per ball for the last 5 balls made, but they had to be played in rotation, and any balls made on the break were worth 1 extra point, and you only had one chance to clear the rack from where the cue ball lay after the break;) If a person ran all 20 racks, never made a ball on the break, a perfect score would be 400 points, and what of this skill level test had to be performed on a Diamond 10ft ProAm;) and cost $150 to take this sanctioned test, and had to be repeated each time before one of these ''PROFESSIONALS ONLY'' tournaments took place, and as a start, there were 8 of these events held per year;)

Glen

With a 15 Second Shot Clock? Playing on a time schedule you'd have to have a shot clock, but that format is ok. POOL 300 here in Dallas is close that that type concept.

realkingcobra
10-08-2012, 04:05 PM
With a 15 Second Shot Clock? Playing on a time schedule you'd have to have a shot clock, but that format is ok. POOL 300 here in Dallas is close that that type concept.

I thought that would catch your attention:grin: and yes, a 30 sec shot clock, waiting for just one player to put it into action, not all players want to race to the bell at the end of 3 hours of play, but if used, and a player runs out of time, the waiting player receives 1 unearned win for each time violation and it's still the same shooters turn at the table for another 30 seconds, 3 consecutive violations by a player is loss of match;)

CJ Wiley
10-08-2012, 04:09 PM
I thought that would catch your attention:grin: and yes, a 30 sec shot clock, waiting for just one player to put it into action, not all players want to race to the bell at the end of 3 hours of play, but if used, and a player runs out of time, the waiting player receives 1 unearned win for each time violation and it's still the same shooters turn at the table for another 30 seconds, 3 consecutive violations by a player is loss of match;)

30 seconds is an eternity.....20 is plenty or it just gets boring. The thing is you still have the same challenges. Without something tailored for TV it's not going to have much of an impact. Streaming video stuff isn't going to do the trick.

realkingcobra
10-08-2012, 04:12 PM
With a 15 Second Shot Clock? Playing on a time schedule you'd have to have a shot clock, but that format is ok. POOL 300 here in Dallas is close that that type concept.

I also have a completely different format for 10 ball, designed for the viewing audience, kind of like running a mile, in 100 yards:grin:

realkingcobra
10-08-2012, 04:18 PM
30 seconds is an eternity.....20 is plenty or it just gets boring. The thing is you still have the same challenges. Without something tailored for TV it's not going to have much of an impact. Streaming video stuff isn't going to do the trick.

10 ball, no holds barred:grin: no safeties, and any time the 10 is made out of turn, it counts as a win, spots back up and play continues, meaning players can win more than once in a game;)

pooler
10-08-2012, 05:19 PM
I don't know where this all came from. I can't find a post on this thread that blames the pros for anything. I certainly don't. I am pointing my finger squarely at the game. The game has to be right for everything to fall into place.

I just keep doing what I do. That is to try to keep pocket billiards fresh and alive in my home town. I consider and experiment with most every new idea I see and read about (and can think up).

Hello Paul,
Just tried to send you a PM regarding the "fresh and alive pocket billiards" Fatal Flow thread :wink: - it says your inbox is full and can not accept incoming messages.
Any chance to fix it out, if possible ?
Regards

one stroke
10-08-2012, 05:32 PM
It’s not rocket science. All one has to do is pick out the common components of all successful sports and then identify what is missing in pool. Pool has a “FATAL FLAW”. Pool has its own glass ceiling.

Here is the “FATAL FLAW”: A player is entitled to play on offence and score without limit while an opponent sits idly without influence. The combination of these components is not a recipe for success. All sports know that this is unacceptable. No successful legitimate sport has this structure. This current structure of pool mirrors a video game, not a sport. Play Pac Man and make your opponent sit and watch you clear screens. Play pool and make your opponent sit and watch you run balls/racks.

Take note of the following: a 240,000 straight rail billiard run, a run of 622 balkline billiards, a run of 31 three cushion billiards, a run of 4137 points in English Billiards, a 526 ball run in straight pool, an 18 pack in bar-box nine-ball, an 11 pack in nine-ball on a big-table. Where are these games now? Are these examples of successful games with viable futures? All these games are evidence of failed attempts to come to terms with the “FATAL FLAW”. Players get good so let’s make the game harder. Is Ten Ball with tiny pockets the answer to improving interest in the game? I don’t think so.

Baseball, football, basketball, golf, bowling, and other successful sports have written into their rules, regular and predictable opportunities for players/teams to participate. This makes for viable competition and result in popular successful sports. Pool needs to look inward at its structure and look for ways to do the same. The fix would send pool’s evolution in an entirely different direction. Evolution takes a long time and pool is light years away from being ready for prime time. If the “FATAL FLAW” was fixed, I think it is very possible that over time, one new game would emerge that would have the broad based appeal needed so that pool could join all the other successful sports.

I dont know why people keep going down this endless road ,, pool will never ever ever be must see TV unless its part of another must see event Like the Pres Debate or something where the stars are bigger than the game,,
I dont care how you slice dice it put it in a bender and spit it out at the end of the day there is many many things on TV more entertaining than pool


1

one stroke
10-08-2012, 05:34 PM
It’s not rocket science. All one has to do is pick out the common components of all successful sports and then identify what is missing in pool. Pool has a “FATAL FLAW”. Pool has its own glass ceiling.

Here is the “FATAL FLAW”: A player is entitled to play on offence and score without limit while an opponent sits idly without influence. The combination of these components is not a recipe for success. All sports know that this is unacceptable. No successful legitimate sport has this structure. This current structure of pool mirrors a video game, not a sport. Play Pac Man and make your opponent sit and watch you clear screens. Play pool and make your opponent sit and watch you run balls/racks.

Take note of the following: a 240,000 straight rail billiard run, a run of 622 balkline billiards, a run of 31 three cushion billiards, a run of 4137 points in English Billiards, a 526 ball run in straight pool, an 18 pack in bar-box nine-ball, an 11 pack in nine-ball on a big-table. Where are these games now? Are these examples of successful games with viable futures? All these games are evidence of failed attempts to come to terms with the “FATAL FLAW”. Players get good so let’s make the game harder. Is Ten Ball with tiny pockets the answer to improving interest in the game? I don’t think so.

Baseball, football, basketball, golf, bowling, and other successful sports have written into their rules, regular and predictable opportunities for players/teams to participate. This makes for viable competition and result in popular successful sports. Pool needs to look inward at its structure and look for ways to do the same. The fix would send pool’s evolution in an entirely different direction. Evolution takes a long time and pool is light years away from being ready for prime time. If the “FATAL FLAW” was fixed, I think it is very possible that over time, one new game would emerge that would have the broad based appeal needed so that pool could join all the other successful sports.

sorry double post

GrandTourPromo
10-08-2012, 06:17 PM
Pool needs more players. More so than it needs to be watched by more spectators, especially if those spectators aren't encouraged to play themselves.

The game needn't be changed in order to attract more players.

The problems that need and can be remedied are not difficult to resolve. It is a matter of creative and cost effective marketing.

CJ Wiley
10-08-2012, 06:37 PM
[QUOTE=one stroke;3803923]I dont know why people keep going down this endless road ,, pool will never ever ever be must see TV unless its part of another must see event Like the Pres Debate or something where the stars are bigger than the game,,
I dont care how you slice dice it put it in a bender and spit it out at the end of the day there is many many things on TV more entertaining than pool



You guys are making some impressive points about why pool's not as popular now as it was in the 90's when Millions of people watched pool on ESPN. The fact is when 1000 random people were recently polled only 2% said they would watch pool on TV, and the reasons appeared simple.

It didn't matter how much money was involved or even what type of pool game it was. On the other hand when ask if they would be interested in watching pool if they knew the player and had heard them tell interesting stories about gambling at pool and life on the road, it jumped up to over 70%. Then when ask if they would gamble on their favorite players the numbers jumped up to over 80%. And the older demographic was 90%.

This puts a big hole in the stories saying "pool's not successful because of the image of gambling and hustling". It's quite the contrary my pool friends, the fact is pool can not be successful without the image of hustling and gambling.

This is the "powder" in the magic bullet and the key that unlocks the door to understanding the real reason pool has declined in the past 15 years. After all the waves were all made by 'THE HUSTLER' and 'THE COLOR OF MONEY'.

I road the last wave and did very well until about 10 years after the release of the 'Color of Money' (1986 Movie starring Paul Newman and Tom Cruise). I cringe every time I hear about the image or the game its self being the problem. In fact the solution is using the strength of pool, which is the underworld characters.

Finding a way to bring out the gambling action in an exciting, classy, tasteful way and positioning it to maximize entertainment value. Mixed Martial Arts recently did this, World Wide Wrestling and Texas Hold'em are doing it. And our very own Minnesota Fats took on the role of a movie character and did it years ago. The Game of pool is fine, it's the personalities that need the special attention and the character building.

This can be strategically done with the help of true acting professionals and a well scripted pool plot and theme. It's been proven twice that the masses will enjoy the allure of pocket billiards. 'The Hustler', then 'The Color of Money", now the question is "what's the next thing to captivate America, a documentary, a reality show, or another movie? Maybe we need to get ahold of Tom Cruise. :wink: 'The Game is the Teacher'http://www.spinsterbilliards.co.uk/inc/img/tables/custom/wave.jpg

rayjay
10-08-2012, 07:02 PM
Mixed Scotch doubles (pool, not the drink) with a shot clock playing 8-ball has the best chance to find personality "idols" that the general public can connect with...imo...think apa. With the right challenging, gambling or money-winning format, I think it has a chance on tv. Just a thought.
:slap:

Paul Schofield
10-08-2012, 07:23 PM
I believe that Game is Perfect. It's not like golf, baseball, or football where you get the same amount of innings, holes, or downs. It's like BOXING where you know you have to perform or you may get knocked out. Pocket Billiards is the "Master Game" and we want to help The Game be the Best it can be.

I am sure that you are a well intentioned nice guy and I respect your passion for the game but you are confusing me.

What Game is perfect? Old Nine-Ball Honest Effort? Push-Out Nine-Ball, Texas Express Nine-Ball, Call only the 8 Eight-Ball? Call everything Eight-Ball? Ten-Ball World Standardized Rules? Ten-Ball with Nine-Ball rules? 14.1 Straight Pool? Bank Pool? Pool300? Bonus Ball? 6Pocket? One-Pocket? Should I continue with this? A marketing manager would not even know where to begin.

I know where to begin. It would be with a game that the entire pool community likes and plays and a game from which pool can grow. We don't have that. One game has to emerge, an old game has to be reworked, or a new game devised.

None of these games are like boxing. Boxing is highly interactive. Your metaphor is a real stretch.........Master Game?

Johnk78
10-08-2012, 07:26 PM
Having a dress code would be a great start for pool halls. Im not talking about having to dress preppy or anything. Im talking about having a little dignity. There is nothing worse to me than some guy wearing a wife beater with his shorts pulled down to his knees . It tends to turn off the casual players who come in there with family and friends. Save the beater and low riders for the house.

Paul Schofield
10-08-2012, 07:32 PM
Having a dress code would be a great start for pool halls. Im not talking about having to dress preppy or anything. Im talking about having a little dignity. There is nothing worse to me than some guy wearing a wife beater with his shorts pulled down to his knees . It tends to turn off the casual players who come in there with family and friends. Save the beater and low riders for the house.

Trust me. I did not put this guy up to this. LOL

The Renfro
10-08-2012, 07:49 PM
Paul while I acknowledge that we don't see eye to eye on many things I will continue to applaud you for the dress code requirements you have in place.....

Lumocolor
10-08-2012, 07:57 PM
I keep trying to put the last scene of the movie "Rounders" in a pool setting since after that movie was a hit the WSOP started getting 7000-8000 people ready to toss in their 10k for their shot...

Now the last scene in a pool context "First prize at the US Open is 1500 bucks, does it have my name on it? i don't know, but i know for sure that for that amount of prize money i can't afford this cab ride to the airport to find out" :lol:

I think CJ is right if you want people to watch pool you're going to need some kind of "Banging with the stars" reality TV show, where 10 million idiots a week will want to know if Bristol Palin can shoot better than Christy Alley after 2 months of lessons. Sad but probably true.

CJ Wiley
10-08-2012, 08:02 PM
I am sure that you are a well intentioned nice guy and I respect your passion for the game but you are confusing me.

What Game is perfect? Old Nine-Ball Honest Effort? Push-Out Nine-Ball, Texas Express Nine-Ball, Call only the 8 Eight-Ball? Call everything Eight-Ball? Ten-Ball World Standardized Rules? Ten-Ball with Nine-Ball rules? 14.1 Straight Pool? Bank Pool? Pool300? Bonus Ball? 6Pocket? One-Pocket?

None of these games are like boxing. Boxing is highly interactive. Your metaphor is a real stretch.........Master Game?

It's very much like Boxing, but instead of flurries of punches you have flurries of shots, or at the upper level flurries of racks. Instead of hooks and jabs you have draws and stuns, instead of knock out punches, you have knock out breaks, instead of ducking and dodging you're kicking and playing safe, you don't lose blood but you do lose pride, instead of 15 rounds you must win 15 games.... 9 Ball is the best TV Game, it's fast and easy to follow because there's always just one target for the fans to follow. Like Boxing there's a pre show of the brutal training the two players have to go through to compete. And of course the championship Belt.

Call pocket, Winner Break, no specialty cues, no corner ball, break from the box, 4.25 inch pockets, Incoming Player has option to pass the shot unless it's a safe, one two way shot a game, one two way safe a game, and a 15 second shot clock, race to 15, and a Ref. with white gloves racking the balls, and players dressed in Giorgio Armani, that covers what type of game.

However, like I have stated in my last posts there must be an emotional attachment to the professionals playing the game. The Game cannot be expected to draw the audience, but the players can. It's been done before and history always repeats its self and the cycle of pocket billiards is getting ready to move up. And Yes, Pocket Billiards is the Master Game.

It's just a matter of changing the present paradigm and that's a matter of implementing a strategic plan. I have a feeling this plan is underway and the stars are aligning and that means something special is in motion, and a new age of pool will soon be born. CLICK THE PICTURE https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/255321_502084686484239_1577620669_n.jpg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDoAYdZbwuw)

Yoda4962
10-08-2012, 08:33 PM
so much smoke you couldn't see the balls! need to burn your clothes when you get home. tables were shit ! luck based 9 ball ! ridiculous handicaps ! karaoke was more important than the tournament ! players doing their drugs in the parking lot !!!.......


And someone wants to know what's wrong with pool ???? lol

HollyWood
10-08-2012, 08:41 PM
I must need an update for video something- got the music and some of the shots. Its in the way that we use it. mark Playing pool with cues from the 90's. Sometime CJ please come around Minnesota again- Having some challenges and tournments (with you ) would be great- Jimmy Pro Billiards has been having(the best Minnesota 1 pocket Players compete wkly. thanks Mark- Show them the way CJ- heck you gave Earl his shot at a Million with stellar performances!!!!! All the bar players here wouldn't show up and play with out all the spots and ratings system( sucks). they should have to earn there seated places like the pro's!!!!!

Paul Schofield
10-08-2012, 09:38 PM
It's very much like Boxing, but instead of flurries of punches you have flurries of shots, or at the upper level flurries of racks. Instead of hooks and jabs you have draws and stuns, instead of knock out punches, you have knock out breaks, instead of ducking and dodging you're kicking and playing safe, you don't lose blood but you do lose pride, instead of 15 rounds you must win 15 games.... 9 Ball is the best TV Game, it's fast and easy to follow because there's always just one target for the fans to follow. Like Boxing there's a pre show of the brutal training the two players have to go through to compete. And of course the championship Belt.

Call pocket, Winner Break, no specialty cues, no corner ball, break from the box, 4.25 inch pockets, Incoming Player has option to pass the shot unless it's a safe, one two way shot a game, one two way safe a game, and a 15 second shot clock, race to 15, and a Ref. with white gloves racking the balls, and players dressed in Giorgio Armani, that covers what type of game.

However, like I have stated in my last posts there must be an emotional attachment to the professionals playing the game. The Game cannot be expected to draw the audience, but the players can. It's been done before and history always repeats its self and the cycle of pocket billiards is getting ready to move up. And Yes, Pocket Billiards is the Master Game.

It's just a matter of changing the present paradigm and that's a matter of implementing a strategic plan. I have a feeling this plan is underway and the stars are aligning and that means something special is in motion, and a new age of pool will soon be born. CLICK THE PICTURE https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/255321_502084686484239_1577620669_n.jpg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDoAYdZbwuw)

So let me get this straight. Your template for pool's success is boxing. Boxing is a pure spectator sport. No one watches boxing and is inspired to box with their family and friends.

This post describes "Professional pool's exercise in self worship". I have spent 40 years trying to get people to play pool and I can tell you with certainty that the rotation games are just too difficult for people to play and understand. As a room owner and local promoter, I can't do anything with Nine-Ball that successfully promotes pool in my locale.

Can you not see the disconnect here? I am tring to get people to play pool. You are tring to get people to watch. The public is not going to play what you are trying to get them to watch.

CJ Wiley
10-08-2012, 10:13 PM
So let me get this straight. Your template for pool's success is boxing. Boxing is a pure spectator sport. No one watches boxing and is inspired to box with their family and friends.

This post describes "Professional pool's exercise in self worship". I have spent 40 years trying to get people to play pool and I can tell you with certainty that the rotation games are just too difficult for people to play and understand. As a room owner and local promoter, I can't do anything with Nine-Ball that successfully promotes pool in my locale.

Can you not see the disconnect here? I am tring to get people to play pool. You are tring to get people to watch. The public is not going to play what you are trying to get them to watch.

We are playing different roles, and both are important. Without having the game on TV you will never get the popularity that you seek.

And you do "real eyes" the boxing is a comparison of the style of game. A lot of people like to box on a video game, but no one want's to get hurt playing a game.

That's the beauty of Pool, you can have the competition of boxing without the blood.:wink: There are many people that love to compete and rotation games can be made easier. They just need expert instruction and that is coming too because we will soon be able to give instruction on line.

Pocket Billiards is an art form, a way to express ourselves and there's a new age coming. Out with the old and in with the new is what they say. We don't teach the Game, the Game teaches us, and the Game plays through us. It's a unique form of self expression, no different than an artist or musician. 'The Game is the Teacher' Click Pic

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/c0.0.403.403/p403x403/539543_372023379538471_714893772_n.jpg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmJFy9pMeYg)

The Renfro
10-08-2012, 10:32 PM
Before the public can make a connection with the game they must first make a connection with the players... Snooker did a bunch of promo on the players and the ratings improved....

They didn't have the players talk about their big scores gambling but more along the lines of who they were and where they came from... The stuff that many of us can understand....

Most pool players are from blue collar backgrounds... If we can get John Q Public to identify with the players then we can create a connection....

At the US Open the front runners for the Accu-Stats 1pocket "Make it Happen" event will be interviewed... If that's letting the cat out of the bag then so be it.... A connection has got to be made before any of the professional level bodies have a chance at all in making it past today... The industry at the pro level struggles on every front and there is NO professional promotion....

The players for the most part have zero clue as to how to start and that's is not a knock it is only the reality of the situation....

There are great stories about coming from nothing and finding something deep inside yourself that mattered... That made you different.. That turned you into a champion... That can come from 1 of a hundred pro level players.... Pro Pool players are the underdog and if you look around the US for the most part most of us are in the same boat...

If the sport can figure out how to cast the players as they are instead of how they pretend or want to be we will be 2 or 3 steps ahead of where we are and have been for 3 decades....

The husting stories are only great if you understand where the players came from... our pros are not rich kid polo players or golfers... They came from a hard working background with grit in their hearts and an emptiness in their guts that drove them to become who they are...

THOSE are the stories that can stand up and change the direction of the wind IF they can find a forum that will get the stories out.....

krupa
10-09-2012, 05:19 AM
What Game is perfect? Old Nine-Ball Honest Effort? Push-Out Nine-Ball, Texas Express Nine-Ball, Call only the 8 Eight-Ball? Call everything Eight-Ball? Ten-Ball World Standardized Rules? Ten-Ball with Nine-Ball rules? 14.1 Straight Pool? Bank Pool? Pool300? Bonus Ball? 6Pocket? One-Pocket? Should I continue with this? A marketing manager would not even know where to begin.


This is like saying cards have a problem because you can play Gin, Cribbage, Bridge, Euchre, pitch, blackjack, etc., etc. However, that is exactly what makes a deck of cards (and a pool table) so perfect. They are both remarkably flexible game platforms where you can play an almost infinite number of games.

14.1 is pretty damn good. From your point of view, I think the only downside is that one player could run 150 and out. However, the player's you frequently reference -- the ones that can't play rotation games -- would never run 100+ balls. The game is hard, but that doesn't mean it has a "flaw."

No game or activity is worth doing if it's easy. You want to attract new players? Let 'em play APA 8-ball. Court the higher-skill levels to get into 9-ball or 14.1, start other non-APA leagues for people to "graduate" to. When people's handicaps go up, reward them with something... free/discounted table time, for example. Let 'em learn how to pocket balls and get shape by playing offense-only games like Pool 300.

I mentioned it before, there's a book called "300 ways to play billiards". Have you read it to see what's in there? Maybe there's already a game that meets your desires?

Edited to add: Any newcomer to the game is going to have difficulty getting the cue ball and object balls to do what he/she wants them to do. Because of that, I think the rules of the game being played are largely irrelevant.

CJ Wiley
10-09-2012, 06:55 AM
Sometime CJ please come around Minnesota again- Having some challenges and tournments (with you ) would be great- Jimmy Pro Billiards has been having(the best Minnesota 1 pocket Players compete wkly. thanks Mark- Show them the way CJ- heck you gave Earl his shot at a Million with stellar performances!!!!! All the bar players here wouldn't show up and play with out all the spots and ratings system( sucks). they should have to earn there seated places like the pro's!!!!![/QUOTE]

I'm currently doing a Documentary of Earl running the 11 racks in a row for the Million Dollar Challenge and 'The Real Story' of what happended behind the scenes. This is the most amazing feat in the history of pocket billiards and upon returning to the Professional game I feel this historic story must be told. No one was ever told what really happened and you will hear how Earl Stickland trained for the event and what he did to win.

I'll make it back up to Minnesato one of these days, my sister used to live there, but moved to Geneva Switzerland a few months ago. Tell Jimmy "Hi" for me and I hope he's doing well and drop me a line on here or Face Book sometime, I"d love to hear from him. Tell everyone I"m training a lot of people on some really cool techniques, just click my athlete's page below.

CJ Wiley
10-09-2012, 07:03 AM
Sometime CJ please come around Minnesota again- Having some challenges and tournments (with you ) would be great- Jimmy Pro Billiards has been having(the best Minnesota 1 pocket Players compete wkly. thanks Mark- Show them the way CJ- heck you gave Earl his shot at a Million with stellar performances!!!!! All the bar players here wouldn't show up and play with out all the spots and ratings system( sucks). they should have to earn there seated places like the pro's!!!!![/QUOTE]

I'm currently doing a Documentary of Earl running the 11 racks in a row for the Million Dollar Challenge and 'The Real Story' of what happended behind the scenes. This is the most amazing feat in the history of pocket billiards and upon returning to the Professional game I feel this historic story must be told. No one was ever told what really happened and you will hear how Earl Stickland trained for the event and what he did to win.

I'll make it back up to Minnesato one of these days, my sister used to live there, but moved to Geneva Switzerland a few months ago. Tell Jimmy "Hi" for me and I hope he's doing well and drop me a line on here or Face Book sometime, I"d love to hear from him. Tell everyone I"m training a lot of people on some really cool techniques, just click my athlete's page below.

CreeDo
10-09-2012, 07:12 AM
Renfro (and others) have it. TV sells characters. Do a good enough job with promoting the characters, and you can engage people... Maybe to the point where the actual hitting of pool balls is secondary.

I remember the IPT trying to do this, telling the story of how Busty continued to play despite news of the death of his daughter. That's the kind of thing that makes you feel something for a player, vs. "last year this guy was in the running for the DCC all-around, and he's been hitting 'em good all day today."

This would help offset some of the sterile, bland feeling that Paul's been talking about, I think... give them a good backstory and skilled commentators who will inject something more interesting than "I think he has to hit this with inside and go around three rails".

Paul Schofield
10-09-2012, 12:16 PM
You folks are off topic. You are talking about engaging an audience. I am talking about engaging the player that is sitting while his opponent shoots.

I have heard it said many times: "That is what is unique and beautiful about our game. If you don't like it, go do something else." It turns out, that is exactly what the public has done. Participation nationally is down more than 40% over the last five years.

The Renfro
10-09-2012, 01:26 PM
You folks are off topic. You are talking about engaging an audience. I am talking about engaging the player that is sitting while his opponent shoots.

I have heard it said many times: "That is what is unique and beautiful about our game. If you don't like it, go do something else." It turns out, that is exactly what the public has done. Participation nationally is down more than 40% over the last five years.

Is that the problem or the symptom of the economy where nationally rooms have been closing their doors.??.. If there are no decent rooms then there has to be a decline in participation..... I would be more interested in numbers from metro area that haven't lost rooms to ever increasing costs...

I know this is a slippery slope and you could assume the rooms closed because participation was down... But was that a conscious choice by the patrons to stop or were they forced to stop to put gas in the tank and food on the table as their disposable income continued to shrink to nothing....

CreeDo
10-09-2012, 01:41 PM
If participation is down sharply over a relatively short span of 5 years, why was pool popular in the first place before that? We had the exact same games with the exact same problems 10 years ago.

Cuemaster98
10-09-2012, 02:13 PM
Engaging the audience is really the issue with pool. If you don't have the audience that understand how the game of pool is played or know when a good player make a safety or a good position shot...it can be boring to watch. The pool industry need to educate the general public on the game of pool and to demonstrate the skills required to perform a shot. etc.

Better yet, what in it for them if they play / watch this game?

I think IPT got it right with how they marketed the game of pool...unfortunately the money was not there. The point is pool need to be more engaging with the audience for it be more successful.

As for engaging the players...well..they just need to practice more and get better if they want a more engaging game :).

The match on youtube between the two great, Eferen Reyes and Jim Rempe was a great match to watch (both players were very engaging throughout the match with their skills). Now, if they had slow motion, special sound effect etc...to engage the audience...back ground of player like in poker, etc..people might learn to appreciate the game more and appreciate what it take for the players to get to their level.

Pool is the best game/sport out there...it requires not only strategies but the skill to execute and it not bias like other game such as baseball, basketball, football etc where you have to be taller, stronger, etc. We have champion that are tall, short, fat, skinny...etc.. Now what other games or sports out there has this level playing field?






You folks are off topic. You are talking about engaging an audience. I am talking about engaging the player that is sitting while his opponent shoots.

I have heard it said many times: "That is what is unique and beautiful about our game. If you don't like it, go do something else." It turns out, that is exactly what the public has done. Participation nationally is down more than 40% over the last five years.

The Renfro
10-09-2012, 02:17 PM
If participation is down sharply over a relatively short span of 5 years, why was pool popular in the first place before that? We had the exact same games with the exact same problems 10 years ago.

Definitely a valid point....

However the gaming systems and online participation has to be considered as a blow to pool rooms... No more arcade machines to subsidize the tables.... That HAS changed in the last decade...

Right now it's rough action for lots of entertainment choices...

I know of several golf courses and my favorite driving range closed it's doors... I think all recreational activities have taken a major hit if it had large percentages of low and middle class participants.... I think it is the economy as much as anything causing the numbers to dwindle.....

Cuemaster98
10-09-2012, 02:19 PM
Agreed.

I think the industry as a whole need to market the game of pool differently and more effectively.

Duc.


Renfro (and others) have it. TV sells characters. Do a good enough job with promoting the characters, and you can engage people... Maybe to the point where the actual hitting of pool balls is secondary.

I remember the IPT trying to do this, telling the story of how Busty continued to play despite news of the death of his daughter. That's the kind of thing that makes you feel something for a player, vs. "last year this guy was in the running for the DCC all-around, and he's been hitting 'em good all day today."

This would help offset some of the sterile, bland feeling that Paul's been talking about, I think... give them a good backstory and skilled commentators who will inject something more interesting than "I think he has to hit this with inside and go around three rails".

CJ Wiley
10-09-2012, 02:53 PM
Agreed.

I think the industry as a whole need to market the game of pool differently and more effectively.

Duc.

I agree with that input. Men and women can also play on a level playing field and that's a special quality that pool has. The marketing and advertising these days is few and far between. When I had my pool room CJ's Billiard Palace I did 4 TV commercials a night for 3 straight years. I also produced 3 televised events from CJ's and did almost 500k one year on pool time alone. Not too shabby, but I know it was a result of the aggresive marketing and TV/ESPN advertising of the pros. My slogan was "CJ's Play Where The Pros Play"
CLICK TO SEE CJS COMMERCIAL (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ma5PTds8YaI&feature=plcp)
CLICK TO SEE CARSONS "CJ"COMMERCIAL (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqnvdM58Eu0&feature=plcp)

Paul Schofield
10-09-2012, 07:07 PM
If participation is down sharply over a relatively short span of 5 years, why was pool popular in the first place before that? We had the exact same games with the exact same problems 10 years ago.

There has been an attrition for the last 10 years. I only sighted the last 5. There is no doubt that the economy has compounded pool's troubles. The economy could get good right now and I don't think it would matter.

CSykes24
10-09-2012, 07:46 PM
This is literally the worst thread I have ever laid eyes on.

OP, No. Just stop. Jeez. Your argument is so invalid it makes me want to go crawl in a corner and die.

CJ Wiley
10-10-2012, 06:54 AM
There has been an attrition for the last 10 years. I only sighted the last 5. There is no doubt that the economy has compounded pool's troubles. The economy could get good right now and I don't think it would matter.

When You look at what's being done today compared to 20 years ago it's obvious why pool's wilting away. Just like a plant you have to give The Game sunshine, water and encouraging verbal nutrients. The Game's Marketing, Advertising, and P.R. has been neglected on a massive scale professionally and on TV in America. Remember Out of Sight Out of Mind.
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/399683_310721382368635_1083934775_n.jpg

Paul Schofield
10-10-2012, 09:38 PM
The Game's Marketing, Advertising, and P.R. has been neglected on a massive scale professionally and on TV in America

I can't disagree more. I think there have been a number of aggressive, sincere, and valiant efforts in these areas you have mentioned. I think that after all the efforts, plans, and capital expended over the decades with marginal results, we would begin to ask ourselves "What are we marketing?" Is what we are marketing even marketable today?

CJ Wiley
10-10-2012, 11:36 PM
I can't disagree more. I think there have been a number of aggressive, sincere, and valiant efforts in these areas you have mentioned. I think that after all the efforts, plans, and capital expended over the decades with marginal results, we would begin to ask ourselves "What are we marketing?" Is what we are marketing even marketable today?

If you're asking yourself "what are we marketing" then I"m pretty sure that's a sign of not knowing what anyone's marketing. I have a lot of experience in developing strategic marketing plans and the first step is to have a clear, defined mission statement, and a well defined plan to reach the specific goals with a team of professionals experienced in these positions. If this has happened to any extent I'm not aware of it.

When you say "all the efforts, plans, and capital expended", can you identify:

1) What efforts specifically?
2) What plans were implemented?
3) What capital, and how was it expended?

When you say "I think there have been a number of aggressive, sincere, and valiant efforts", what are you referring to?

If all these "aggressive, sincere, valiant efforts" didn't get the Game on TV, then what did they do for the Game? Without TV coverage of some kind no one really even knows Pocket Billiards is an option as a recreational activity. How would we even know if these "valiant efforts" worked or not? Was there any level of success and if so, how was it measured. Was there a professional marketing team put in place or were these "aggressive, sincere, valiant efforts put forth by individuals? What were these "individuals experience in market research and development?

In answering these questions at least we will be on the right track to properly answer your question
"What are we marketing?" Is what we are marketing even marketable today?

I, personally think we should be marketing Professional Pocket Billiards in a way that develops an "Emotional Attachment" with the 40 Million people that play pool at least once a week in the United States. Judging by the success of Poker, Mixed Martial Arts and Wrestling I would think it would be prudent to at least try to some kind of "Reality Show" with pool as a backdrop.

The movies 'The Hustler' and 'The Color of Money' proved that people are attracted to well developed Characters and unless this is tried with aggressive, sincere, and valiant efforts how could we possible know if it can be done or not? I don't see any reason to "give up" if no one has even tried to do anything along these lines.

I'm sure many people thought "American Idol" would be a flop too, but someone tried it anyway. Can we at least agree that history is full of examples of Shows that caught on that went against "public opinion". Kung Fu was turned down at first and ROCKY was turned down many times as were many other high profile examples. How do we know pool isn't a "diamond in the rough" these days if know one will even try to polish it?

CJ Wiley
10-11-2012, 12:22 PM
Renfro (and others) have it. TV sells characters. Do a good enough job with promoting the characters, and you can engage people... Maybe to the point where the actual hitting of pool balls is secondary.

I remember the IPT trying to do this, telling the story of how Busty continued to play despite news of the death of his daughter. That's the kind of thing that makes you feel something for a player, vs. "last year this guy was in the running for the DCC all-around, and he's been hitting 'em good all day today."

This would help offset some of the sterile, bland feeling that Paul's been talking about, I think... give them a good backstory and skilled commentators who will inject something more interesting than "I think he has to hit this with inside and go around three rails".

I totally agree that for pool to become popular ironically enough, The Game MUST take a back seat at first. The primary story needs to be about the characters involved, not the game. No game has a draw without the personalities involved. History backs that up 100%. imho

When I was playing full time there were several of us that promoted in our own areas of the country (and some nation/world wide), Jeanette Lee, Vivian, Allison, Sigel, Hopkins, Hall, Miz, Archer, Davenport, Varner, West, Martin, Wilson, and of course Keith M. and several others were in 'The Color of Money' , ' The Baltimore Bullet' and even 'Pool Hall Junkies'.....and there's no doubt what Mosconi and Fats did in, and as a result of the movie 'The Hustler'....however, even without movies it's VITALLY IMPORTANT to do press releases to local magazines, newspapers, and local news TV Stations.....I would advise ALL the younger players to DO YOUR PART and if you have any quesions on HOW to get started or need advise on HOW to write the press releases FEEL FREE to contact me anytime....I can ALWAYS be reached on Face Book via Private Message. 'The Game is the Teacher'

CJ Wiley
10-11-2012, 04:54 PM
So what do you propose to fix it?

I am not being a smart ass, I am truly interested in your thought's.

I was talking to one of the younger Champion pocket billiards players last night. He said I have been seeing your "The Game is the Teacher" promotion and what can I do to promote the Game? I said "Promote Yourself playing the game...do charity events, play to raise money for kids programs, hospitals,and other worthy causes...show the world what the Game can do THROUGH YOU....after all, it's not the Game that's alluring, it's the people playing it....I've seen a pool table with no one playing on it and it's not that exciting....Remember, the key to Promotion is MOTION...the Game plays through what we do in our lives, so play IT in front of as many people as possible through newspapers, TV, Radio and the internet....take care of the GAME FIRST, and the Game will take always take care of you!!!" The Game is the Teacher'

Paul Schofield
10-11-2012, 06:35 PM
I want to be sure I understand you. Simply put: Nine-Ball is the game and it only needs to be marketed effectively.

CJ Wiley
10-12-2012, 07:08 AM
I want to be sure I understand you. Simply put: Nine-Ball is the game and it only needs to be marketed effectively.

You're starting to "get warm".:wink:

CJ Wiley
10-12-2012, 08:05 PM
I left the Game for many years and got involved in the nightclub business that generated a tremendous economy for many people and businesses. I set a goal to be the "best in Texas" and accomplished that with Carsons Palace. It had the highest recorded TABC sales out of ALL restaurants, bars, and nightclubs in the state of Texas. We managed a staff of over 120 employees and I was "on top of the world" in terms of public perception of success. To the casual observer it appeared I had "made it".

You would think this would be a "live happily ever after story", but there was one thing that "interfered" with my contentment in my new found success. I felt like a had left a great friend on the battle field.

A friend that had done everything in it's power for me. A friend that had fed me, given me the ability to travel the country and see the world, a friend that through thick and thin had always been with me, guiding, directing, building character, confidence, and wisdom.

I started getting this dreadful feeling that I had left this friend wounded, with not enough strength to make it on it's own. I told some people what I had done, but they didn't understand, how could they?

It's difficult for just "anyone" to understand that this friend that I had such a deep admiration and love for was not a person, not a place and not a thing. It was a Game. The Master Game! Now it's time to Help It get back on It's Feet. We will appreciate you helping if you can. 'The Game is the Teacher'

Paul Schofield
10-12-2012, 10:43 PM
I left the Game for many years and got involved in the nightclub business that generated a tremendous economy for many people and businesses. I set a goal to be the "best in Texas" and accomplished that with Carsons Palace. It had the highest recorded TABC sales out of ALL restaurants, bars, and nightclubs in the state of Texas. We managed a staff of over 120 employees and I was "on top of the world" in terms of public perception of success. To the casual observer it appeared I had "made it".

You would think this would be a "live happily ever after story", but there was one thing that "interfered" with my contentment in my new found success. I felt like a had left a great friend on the battle field.

A friend that had done everything in it's power for me. A friend that had fed me, given me the ability to travel the country and see the world, a friend that through thick and thin had always been with me, guiding, directing, building character, confidence, and wisdom.

I started getting this dreadful feeling that I had left this friend wounded, with not enough strength to make it on it's own. I told some people what I had done, but they didn't understand, how could they?

It's difficult for just "anyone" to understand that this friend that I had such a deep admiration and love for was not a person, not a place and not a thing. It was a Game. The Master Game! Now it's time to Help It get back on It's Feet. We will appreciate you helping if you can. 'The Game is the Teacher'

This is pure schmaltz.

CJ Wiley
10-12-2012, 10:48 PM
I want to be sure I understand you. Simply put: Nine-Ball is the game and it only needs to be marketed effectively.

guess again

CJ Wiley
10-12-2012, 11:17 PM
This is pure schmaltz.

The "Fatal Flaw" has finally been identified.

CJ Wiley
10-12-2012, 11:19 PM
I can't disagree more. I think there have been a number of aggressive, sincere, and valiant efforts in these areas you have mentioned. I think that after all the efforts, plans, and capital expended over the decades with marginal results, we would begin to ask ourselves "What are we marketing?" Is what we are marketing even marketable today?

If you're asking yourself "what are we marketing" then I"m pretty sure that's a sign of not knowing what anyone's marketing. I have a lot of experience in developing strategic marketing plans and the first step is to have a clear, defined mission statement, and a well defined plan to reach the specific goals with a team of professionals experienced in these positions. If this has happened to any extent I'm not aware of it.

When you say "all the efforts, plans, and capital expended", can you identify:

1) What efforts specifically?
2) What plans were implemented?
3) What capital, and how was it expended?

When you say "I think there have been a number of aggressive, sincere, and valiant efforts", what are you referring to?

If all these "aggressive, sincere, valiant efforts" didn't get the Game on TV, then what did they do for the Game? Without TV coverage of some kind no one really even knows Pocket Billiards is an option as a recreational activity. How would we even know if these "valiant efforts" worked or not? Was there any level of success and if so, how was it measured. Was there a professional marketing team put in place or were these "aggressive, sincere, valiant efforts put forth by individuals? What were these "individuals experience in market research and development?

In answering these questions at least we will be on the right track to properly answer your question
"What are we marketing?" Is what we are marketing even marketable today?

I, personally think we should be marketing Professional Pocket Billiards in a way that develops an "Emotional Attachment" with the 40 Million people that play pool at least once a week in the United States. Judging by the success of Poker, Mixed Martial Arts and Wrestling I would think it would be prudent to at least try to some kind of "Reality Show" with pool as a backdrop.

The movies 'The Hustler' and 'The Color of Money' proved that people are attracted to well developed Characters and unless this is tried with aggressive, sincere, and valiant efforts how could we possible know if it can be done or not? I don't see any reason to "give up" if no one has even tried to do anything along these lines.

I'm sure many people thought "American Idol" would be a flop too, but someone tried it anyway. Can we at least agree that history is full of examples of Shows that caught on that went against "public opinion". Kung Fu was turned down at first and ROCKY was turned down many times as were many other high profile examples. How do we know pool isn't a "diamond in the rough" these days if know one will even try to polish it?

Paul Schofield
10-14-2012, 05:53 PM
We are not even talking about the same thing. I am trying to get people to play pool. You are trying to get them to watch pool.

CJ Wiley
10-14-2012, 08:03 PM
We are not even talking about the same thing. I am trying to get people to play pool. You are trying to get them to watch pool.

I'm trying to get you to "try something new" and realize that "people see, people do". The essential component in Promotion is Motion, and I've shown you the TV commercials I've used in the past, ideas on getting pros involved in you area, and several other ideas that are proven to get results. And on the "big picture" TV is the key, but that's something I'm personally trying to see drastically improve for everyone's benefit.

Also, suggested promotional ideas you could use, etc. One things for certain if you play the "blame the game" it's not going to get any better, you'll just fall into the ole "do the same thing, get the same results" routine.

I feel there is vast amount of promotional knowlege, comments and questions you can ask yourself to get the results you seek. 'The Game is the Teacher'

Paul Schofield
10-15-2012, 10:56 PM
[SIZE="3"]If you're asking yourself "what are we marketing" then I"m pretty sure that's a sign of not knowing what anyone's marketing.


No. I am asking you: "What exactly are you marketing?"

CJ Wiley
10-15-2012, 11:09 PM
No. I am asking you: "What exactly are you marketing?"

Solutions to things

Maniac
10-15-2012, 11:13 PM
Solutions to things

Darn C.J., do you ever sleep???

Maniac (fight the good fight)

Push&Pool
10-16-2012, 02:05 AM
I don't wanna start an arguement (though I see it already began :grin-square: ) but I have to say this "problem" about some players never getting close to the table during the entire game also come to my mind. I don't know how to solve that to provide more fair chances to both sides, so I'll leave that to more experienced players.

Talking about fair chances, the BiH rule isn't helping much as well. I'm well aware that a good player knows how to avoid scratching, hitting wrong balls etc., but it still allows the opponent to easily drop some completely blocked balls which would take him several shots to pocket without BiH. That rule simply ruins the defensive aspects of the game and gives even more advantage to more experienced players. Where I play, CB goes to the headspot after being sunk and you can only shoot the balls on the opposite half of the table. That way the games last longer, are way more challenging and a lot more entertaining.

CreeDo
10-16-2012, 07:13 AM
Talking about fair chances, the BiH rule isn't helping much as well. I'm well aware that a good player knows how to avoid scratching, hitting wrong balls etc., but it still allows the opponent to easily drop some completely blocked balls which would take him several shots to pocket without BiH.

Yup, that's pretty much the point... though I don't think ball-in-hand is pool's fatal flaw, or even a flaw at all.

It heavily penalizes fouls, and at the pro level one foul usually leads to loss of game when the other player is able to run out. This keeps players honest and discourages intentional fouls, which bog down the game.

However if your goal is longer, drawn out games where it's less about running out and more about tactical battles, you can just choose to play with your own made up rule about cue ball placement.

Some would argue that's one of pool's fatal flaws... players often just "roll their own" rules based on their skill level and whether or not they're trying to drag out games on a pay-by-the-game coin op table. This leads to fragmented rules all over the world and makes it harder to take the game seriously.

hitman22
10-16-2012, 01:37 PM
WoW! Quite a Thread.

Paul Schofield
10-16-2012, 02:13 PM
So basically you think the problem is people not shooting.

I did not say that. I said "One player is disengaged. He might as well be selling hot dogs".

I started this thread just to get people to think and throw their thoughts and any ideas they may have out onto the table. I wanted people to make me think too. I don't just talk about stuff. I do stuff. I try things. 99.9% of it doesn't work. That is OK. I will only post something that is proving successful (as in the No Conflict Rules (http://www.goldcrownbilliardseriepa.com/no-conflict-rules/)).

I have a few ideas (brought on by this thread) and I am going to try them and see if they are fun and if they are do-able.

Chicagoplayer
10-17-2012, 10:22 AM
I believe I posted earlier in this thread so you can look that up. Now you need to be specific about "where pool is." Do you mean the ability of people to go find a place to play pool? Not a problem, bars everywhere. Making a living at it? I already addressed that regarding tv viewers wanting to see something impressive that they cannot do themselves, like run a table of ten ball on a ten footer. The popularity issue and why it is not a more popular pastime? Look up my post on the fat kid. Adding to my comments on the etiquette of gambling, I am hoping that you will all read the following then click on the link, because pool lends itself to a social game called nigysob and many people have a distaste for being "taught a lesson." Here goes: "This can be seen in classic form in poker games. White gets an unbeatable hand, such as four aces. At this point, if he is a NIGYSOB player, he is more interested in the fact that Black is completely at his mercy than he is in good poker or making money." Here is the link if you really want your eyes opened about how people work and why some have a distaste for what the title of this thread calls "pool's fatal flaw."
http://www.ericberne.com/games/games_people_play_NIGYSOB.htm

~enjoy

spot on!
understanding what psychologically motivates the American player,
(and humans in general)
I find that both Europe and Asia have a different
set of values associated with pool.
Honour > $
in the USA
$ > Honour

Chicagoplayer
10-17-2012, 10:26 AM
When You look at what's being done today compared to 20 years ago it's obvious why pool's wilting away. Just like a plant you have to give The Game sunshine, water and encouraging verbal nutrients. The Game's Marketing, Advertising, and P.R. has been neglected on a massive scale professionally and on TV in America. Remember Out of Sight Out of Mind.
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/399683_310721382368635_1083934775_n.jpg

__________________________________________________ ______

"Raising the Hustler" is about all of you on a real level-isn't it?

Chicagoplayer
10-17-2012, 10:30 AM
This is pure schmaltz.

__________________________________________________ ___

This is a professional player who has given his time, skill and life to the game
This year he will be coaching the US Team v's Europe.

The problem right now sir,
is your lack of consideration for the skill and impact CJ Wiley has had in our Pool Community,
remember who and how you address someone who has paid their dues in spades-
decorum.:mad:

Paul Schofield
10-17-2012, 11:34 AM
I think I am spot on. CJW writes about pool with excessive poetry and prose, giving it human qualities. I view pocket billiards as a sport and entertainment option. I don't give the game credit for anything. It's our invention.

Definition:
schmaltz also schmalz (shmälts)
n.
1. Informal
a. Excessively sentimental art or music.
b. Maudlin sentimentality.

Chicagoplayer
10-18-2012, 10:07 AM
I did not say that. I said "One player is disengaged. He might as well be selling hot dogs".

I started this thread just to get people to think and throw their thoughts and any ideas they may have out onto the table. I wanted people to make me think too. I don't just talk about stuff. I do stuff. I try things. 99.9% of it doesn't work. That is OK. I will only post something that is proving successful (as in the No Conflict Rules (http://www.goldcrownbilliardseriepa.com/no-conflict-rules/)).

I have a few ideas (brought on by this thread) and I am going to try them and see if they are fun and if they are do-able.

__________________________________________________ _______
I have posed the same question:
what is wrong with pool-
it gets many answers in my dcoumentary on us ALL-
the industry, the players, the promoters :grin:
we're
"Raising the Hustler"

Paul Schofield
12-05-2012, 08:27 PM
I have a lot of experience in developing strategic marketing plans and the first step is to have a clear, defined mission statement, and a well defined plan to reach the specific goals with a team of professionals experienced in these positions.

This is all well and good but is pool even marketable in 2012? You can market all you want and get nowhere if the product does not fit the times. I am saying definitively "No pool game today fits where we are heading in this 21st century." The world and all its activities have become increasingly interactive. Look at smart phones, texting, poker, social media, and video games. Yes, video games. Remember Pac-Man style games: simple single player board games from the 80's. Just look at the interaction on display with the video games of today.

Human interaction is key. The dynamic of our current games in 2012 does not fit the times. I shoot while you sit "sphinx like" until I miss is not a good dynamic. It is solitary, sterile, and destructive (and boring). Pool needs to be interactive to be more fun (and entertaining).

cajunfats
12-05-2012, 09:20 PM
Mr. Schofield, I have attempted to read as much of this thread as possible before offering a commentary.

In your OP, you stated that you believe pool has a fatal flaw.

For almost 125 years, the game of Pocket Billiards has been played in varying formats. It will be played for hundreds more just as it is.

Whether or not questions will be raised concerning popularity, profitability, competitveness, and playability, it will continue on.

I like to think of Pocket Billiards as Perpetual Perfection.

We are merely the latest incarnation of participants who cannot grasp the subtle immortality of this game.

Many of the respondents on this thread are knowledgeable about the History of Pool, are accomplished players, and dedicated students of pool.

To ascribe Fatal, is to say that pool will die. There is no proof that such an occurence is remotely close to happening.

To ascribe a Flaw, is to infer an imperfection into a game which has none. The purpose of pool is to strike a white ball and send a stripe/solid or graphically embossed ball into a pocket. All 100% possible to achieve.

Whether you or I have the talent necessary to accomplish this, is irrelevant.

Discussing pool as a competition where only one competes at a time, and the other can sell hot dogs, shows a disrespect for the Talent any individual displays at attempting perfection. No one has ever been perfect at pool. Everybody misses, eventually.

Perhaps in the myriad of responses, I missed something. But, as I read the OP, I felt as though you think pool could be more. There is no way to alter or deviate from the prescribed ritual.

as Paul Newman once said," I'm shooting Fats. When I miss, you can shoot." Therein lies Perfection,...for Eternity.

CJ Wiley
12-05-2012, 09:27 PM
This is all well and good but is pool even marketable in 2012? You can market all you want and get nowhere if the product does not fit the times. I am saying definitively "No pool game today fits where we are heading in this 21st century." The world and all its activities have become increasingly interactive. Look at smart phones, texting, poker, social media, and video games. Yes, video games. Remember Pac-Man style games: simple single player board games from the 80's. Just look at the interaction on display with the video games of today.

Human interaction is key. The dynamic of our current games in 2012 does not fit the times. I shoot while you sit "sphinx like" until I miss is not a good dynamic. It is solitary, sterile, and destructive (and boring). Pool needs to be interactive to be more fun (and entertaining).

We'll just have to "agree to disagree," - "I've never found pool to be boring, people on the other hand.....;) "

Let's face it "All sports and games are boring unless you have a personal attachment to them!" Baseball might be "America's past time," but if you don't enjoy it or follow any of the players it's as boring as pocket billiards could ever be (and I loved to play when I was a kid).

If you're waiting on the "Game of pool" to get "dynamic and exciting" you will have a long wait. If we can get dynamic and exciting people to enjoy and participate in the Game, things will start to cycle up again. You can blame it on video games, texting and smart phones if that makes you feel comfortable, however, that's just an excuse for mediocrity.https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRB3z3D-WJa9LUz6TcTGz_X3Ks7f3IHaxNCPGTV1nxPt-g-vtBKTw

The Game is not the reason for it's success or failure it's the infrastucture of "pool people" haven't had the expertise or ability to maximize the momentum of popularity in the past. This must change or everything will remain the same.

We must bring professional talent into the game to promote it or it will continue to cycle down. I believe everyone tried their best, however, it takes professional marketing/advertising and PR people to make lasting entertainment impact.http://rummuser.com/wp-content/uploads/charisma-for-uRa1.jpg
Pool has enjoyed several "surges," and the reasons were simple - Paul Newman, Tom Cruise, Jackie Gleason, Minn. Fats, Steve Mizerak, Willie Mosconi, Jeanette Lee, Mary Avina etc. You see, it was never the Game that was either exciting or boring, it was something else......charisma. ;)http://images.cryhavok.org/d/371-1/Motivator+-+Charisma.jpg

Paul Schofield
12-05-2012, 10:13 PM
To ascribe Fatal, is to say that pool will die. There is no proof that such an occurence is remotely close to happening.


Please note: I am not talking about miniature pool. Miniature pool is alive and well. Nationally, Pocket Billiards as played on a regulation table has all but collapsed.

Paul Schofield
12-06-2012, 12:22 AM
We'll just have to "agree to disagree," - "I've never found pool to be boring, people on the other hand.....;) "

I respectfully disagree. It is the human dynamic that is exciting. Pool is boring without it.

TRWpool
12-06-2012, 04:41 AM
Have you tried One Pocket? Some One Pocket games may take only a few minutes to play. A player might just pocket a ball on the break and run out. It happens. But on the other hand I've seen many a game of One Pocket take a couple hours to play. Try watching Nick Varner play One Pocket in a big tournament. He has a lot of fire power but he also plays very tight. You are subject to see every ball wedged into an upper corner and the two players are playing one and stop. Typically though, you will find a great deal of cat and mouse happening in One Pocket and there is no pool game which requires more inventiveness.

Try playing three cushion billiards. Now there is a game with a great deal of both offense and defense. BTW Billiards will teach you more than you could ever imagine about moving the cue ball around the table, and it will also help build up your stroke.

Tom

CJ Wiley
12-06-2012, 05:33 AM
I respectfully disagree. It is the human dynamic that is exciting. Pool is boring without it.

Not just pool, ALL things are boring without the "human dynamic". I've had the great fortune to see pool when it was more exciting than any other sport or game. It will be that way again very soon. ;)https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/14416_10151926038530288_865667641_n.jpg

Paul Schofield
12-06-2012, 08:06 AM
The most notable development in Pocket Billiards in the last 35 years is the concept of a "pool team". The dynamic of the game has changed for those events. This is what I am talking about. The team concept has generated human interaction that was not there previously. There is now a dynamic on each side. There needs to be an additional dynamic between the two sides.

Hats off to Hubbert and Bell.

Maniac
12-06-2012, 08:11 AM
The most notable development in Pocket Billiards in the last 35 years is the concept of a "pool team". The dynamic of the game has changed for those events. This is what I am talking about. The team concept has generated human interaction that was not there previously. There is now a dynamic on each side. There needs to be an additional dynamic between the two sides.


You are complicating the hell out of a simple solution. All you really need is a table, some balls, a couple of cues, and two people that love the game.

It'll all take care of itself from that point on.

Geeesh!!!!!

Maniac (maybe someone needs to get out of Pennsylvania every once in a while ;))

lastdimetaker
12-06-2012, 08:40 AM
I love what you call a flaw, it proves that todays players have mastered the game in ways other athletes have not in their sports. It has created so much pressure to get better that every one is looking to change the game or invent new ones.

Island Drive
12-06-2012, 09:37 AM
You are complicating the hell out of a simple solution. All you really need is a table, some balls, a couple of cues, and two people that love the game.

It'll all take care of itself from that point on.

Geeesh!!!!!

Maniac (maybe someone needs to get out of Pennsylvania every once in a while ;))

I disagree, Pauls def. got a clue....

cajunfats
12-06-2012, 09:56 AM
Please note: I am not talking about miniature pool. Miniature pool is alive and well. Nationally, Pocket Billiards as played on a regulation table has all but collapsed. Oh, I get it now. You are speaking of pocket billiards played on tables which are larger than 3.5 x7, aka Bar Boxes.

I am not sure what kind of exposure you have had nationally to determine your findings. I am also not sure whether you have any industry figures to back the assertions you have made. If you are basing this trend on League Play on 8',9', or 10' tables, that would be comparing apples to oranges.

League Play on Big Tables has never been a National phenomenon. The greatest majority of those types of leagues are local in-house organizations. While Big Table Leagues have the capacity, it is a matter of demographics. Because America is so huge, and has many small towns that cannot support a large scale billiard operation,and has multiple Bars per small town, it would naturally appear that Big Table Pool is disadvantaged.

As I asserted in another thread, the European Style Pool Club is an ideal vehicle for a Big Table League. I have participated in this type of league, and have seen the adaptability of it for use here in the United States.

Big Table Pool has fluctuated in periods of recession and prosperity, because of the business model is utilizes. The model may work in Charlotte, North Carolina but not in Jasper, Texas.

Now I have a better grasp of your concerns. Not to worry, Pool won't die. Not even Big Table Pool! It will adapt, as all good things do.

cajunfats

cajunfats
12-06-2012, 10:03 AM
The most notable development in Pocket Billiards in the last 35 years is the concept of a "pool team". The dynamic of the game has changed for those events. This is what I am talking about. The team concept has generated human interaction that was not there previously. There is now a dynamic on each side. There needs to be an additional dynamic between the two sides.

Hats off to Hubbert and Bell. What human dynamic exists that hasn't already been displayed via team interactions, whether Amateur or Professional?

Yes, Larry and Terry have done well with their business model, via sponsorship. What human dynamic did they introduce to competition that hadn't previously existed?

cajunfats-knows a thing or two about pool leagues.

CJ Wiley
12-06-2012, 10:08 AM
The most notable development in Pocket Billiards in the last 35 years is the concept of a "pool team". The dynamic of the game has changed for those events. This is what I am talking about. The team concept has generated human interaction that was not there previously. There is now a dynamic on each side. There needs to be an additional dynamic between the two sides.

Hats off to Hubbert and Bell.

We don't agree on everything, however, I agree with the idea that pool can be successful in a "Team Format," if the production formula brings out the dynamic play and electicity of the Mosconi Cup.
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/599083_10151883039785288_219346101_n.jpg

cueman
12-06-2012, 10:27 AM
It’s not rocket science. All one has to do is pick out the common components of all successful sports and then identify what is missing in pool. Pool has a “FATAL FLAW”. Pool has its own glass ceiling.

Here is the “FATAL FLAW”: A player is entitled to play on offence and score without limit while an opponent sits idly without influence. The combination of these components is not a recipe for success. All sports know that this is unacceptable. No successful legitimate sport has this structure. This current structure of pool mirrors a video game, not a sport. Play Pac Man and make your opponent sit and watch you clear screens. Play pool and make your opponent sit and watch you run balls/racks.

Take note of the following: a 240,000 straight rail billiard run, a run of 622 balkline billiards, a run of 31 three cushion billiards, a run of 4137 points in English Billiards, a 526 ball run in straight pool, an 18 pack in bar-box nine-ball, an 11 pack in nine-ball on a big-table. Where are these games now? Are these examples of successful games with viable futures? All these games are evidence of failed attempts to come to terms with the “FATAL FLAW”. Players get good so let’s make the game harder. Is Ten Ball with tiny pockets the answer to improving interest in the game? I don’t think so.

Baseball, football, basketball, golf, bowling, and other successful sports have written into their rules, regular and predictable opportunities for players/teams to participate. This makes for viable competition and result in popular successful sports. Pool needs to look inward at its structure and look for ways to do the same. The fix would send pool’s evolution in an entirely different direction. Evolution takes a long time and pool is light years away from being ready for prime time. If the “FATAL FLAW” was fixed, I think it is very possible that over time, one new game would emerge that would have the broad based appeal needed so that pool could join all the other successful sports.
Alternate breaks maybe?

Paul Schofield
12-06-2012, 10:30 AM
What human dynamic did they introduce to competition that hadn't previously existed?

camaraderie, fellowship

TRWpool
12-06-2012, 11:36 AM
Sorry, I've never been much of a team player. I grew up relying on my own abilities and for this old dog it's hard to learn new tricks. I played the BCA Nationals in Vegas, last May I think it was, and our team consisted of solid players but we were greatly flawed in that one of our players insisted on drinking beer throughout the matches. The team captain chose not to play though he was the third best player on the team and placed instead our weakest player in his place. Needless to say we barely finished in the money. I know, I was obviously on the wrong team, but we are all friends living in the same area so what was I suppose to do when asked to join them? I would imagine this kind of thing happens frequently.

So, for me, I will stick to writing my own ticket when it comes to pool. No one to blame but me, but then I can take all the credit when things go right. I just like it better that way.

cajunfats
12-06-2012, 11:57 AM
camaraderie, fellowship Unfortunately, these existed in hundreds of local tavern leagues before the APA became a national organization. I remember feeling a sense of fellowship with other pool players as a youngster in the 60's when I first started playing. The first table I have ever played on was a 9 footer.

I am not trying to argue with you Mr. Schofield, I am merely trying to understand how you came to a conclusion about pool having a fatal flaw.

Paul Schofield
12-11-2012, 07:05 PM
I am not trying to argue with you Mr. Schofield, I am merely trying to understand how you came to a conclusion about pool having a fatal flaw.

No one has to agree with me. If you think everything is fine, that is alright by me.

I re-read my OP. I thought it was clear. I guess not. I will try from a different angle.

I think it is imperative to have one representative game that captivates all players; a game that is the introductory game for novices and is also the game preferred by the top players. I see this as an overwhelming problem that limits pools popularity and progress. My OP offers an explanation for the gyrations pool has experienced over the decades.

TRWpool
12-12-2012, 09:15 AM
One Pocket was the first game I was introduced to as a beginner pool enthusiast. As you must know, One Pocket requires the player to utlilize all the elements of pool to become proficient at the game. It has offense and defense throughout and therefore creates a kind of chess match with pool balls. I was lucky there were so many great One Pocket players in my area. I was in a position to learn so many things so quickly.

One Pocket is the ultimate pool game and in my experience it is the game of choice amongst top money players because of all the back and forth it offers. Each player has a real sense of control over the outcome given they play inteligently and within their current limitations. Also, the game is much easier to match up with players of various skill levels. The only draw back is the game is so cerebral that it won't ever have much television appeal.

I see no fatal flaw. Pool has been around for centuries and will always be around. Physics professors take their students to pool rooms to study the collisions of spheres. What other game garners that kind of respect. Pool is one of the most amazing games ever invented.

Tom

Island Drive
12-12-2012, 10:00 AM
No one has to agree with me. If you think everything is fine, that is alright by me.

I re-read my OP. I thought it was clear. I guess not. I will try from a different angle.

I think it is imperative to have one representative game that captivates all players; a game that is the introductory game for novices and is also the game preferred by the top players. I see this as an overwhelming problem that limits pools popularity and progress. My OP offers an explanation for the gyrations pool has experienced over the decades.

Paul, you know what it takes, but haven't figured out how to get there. The flaw is....no one has been able to piece humpty dumpty together, even with all the parts right in front of em. Too bad we didn't live closer to one another.

Maniac
12-12-2012, 01:22 PM
The flaw is....no one has been able to piece humpty dumpty together, even with all the parts right in front of em.

Island,

Your description is: flaw

Paul's description is: FATAL flaw

See the difference ;)???

Maniac (pool will still be around LO-O-O-NG after we're gone)

Island Drive
12-12-2012, 01:34 PM
Island,

Your description is: flaw

Paul's description is: FATAL flaw

See the difference ;)???

Maniac (pool will still be around LO-O-O-NG after we're gone)

Yeah I do, Pauls a pool Maniac & so it goes....

Paul Schofield
01-20-2013, 07:29 PM
Both 6Pocket and Pool300 have been discussed in this thread. They are both non-interactive scored games that are similar in structure to bowling and golf. Does anyone know the status of the organizations that invented these games? I have searched on the Internet and have been unable to find current information.

Paul Schofield
01-24-2013, 11:01 PM
Both 6Pocket and Pool300 have been discussed in this thread. They are both non-interactive scored games that are similar in structure to bowling and golf. Does anyone know the status of the organizations that invented these games? I have searched on the Internet and have been unable to find current information.

I will ask again. Does anyone know the status on leagues playing these two scored games?

Luther Blissett
01-25-2013, 02:13 AM
Speed pool? ...Each player gets 20 minutes to score as high as possible from a fresh rack.

Might be crap to watch or might be good. Don't know.

pooler
01-25-2013, 04:17 AM
Both 6Pocket and Pool300 have been discussed in this thread. They are both non-interactive scored games that are similar in structure to bowling and golf. Does anyone know the status of the organizations that invented these games? I have searched on the Internet and have been unable to find current information.

Hello Paul

I am not able to give You the exact info about the two requested above; however I do know that another non-interactive scored game is developing fairly well.

I do know that the people running it put every effort into its development and it also seems that their hearts are definitely in the right place.
Perhaps it would be worth for You to check this out for whatever reason You are looking for this kind of stuff.

Contact user Deby on this Forum or go directly to:
http://www.behindtherocktour.com
or the e-mail address:
deby@behindtherocktour.com

Regards

vapoolplayer
01-25-2013, 06:22 AM
I tend to agree. I'm not going to write out a long post this morning as this horse has been long dead, but pool's biggest problem is itself. The game itself just isn't entertaining enough or logistacally feasible to become a major game/sport.

The latest wave of business models seems to be PPV streaming, which IMO may garner enough attention from pool's current fanbase to be a financial success for the owners, but isn't going to take pool to where everyone wants it.

I love this game and hate to say it, but pool just isn't something that is going to take off and compete with major sports/games. (in the U.S. that is)

paulcourville
07-24-2013, 01:26 PM
So, as in most of those other sports... when one team scores, the other team gets to take over the object of play.. I guess with that being the case, Pocket Billiards could change so that each player shoots ONCE.. then it's the other players turn, weather the first shooter made anything or not.. hmmmmm, I break, and a ball is pocketed, table is still Open at that point.. I call a ball and a pocket and I drop the called ball, it's NOW my opponents turn, a shot is made and is missed, it's now my turn at the table.. hmmmmm no huge runs, no break & run possibility. Cue ball position after each shot becomes more critical as you are no longer setting up your own next shot but your opponents next shot... Each attempt at pocketing a ball is now two fold in that you're aiming to make a ball and a saftey play with the cue ball at the same time.. It could be interesting.. I'm gonna have to try this out ! ! !

Banks
07-24-2013, 01:45 PM
So, as in most of those other sports... when one team scores, the other team gets to take over the object of play.. I guess with that being the case, Pocket Billiards could change so that each player shoots ONCE.. then it's the other players turn, weather the first shooter made anything or not.. hmmmmm, I break, and a ball is pocketed, table is still Open at that point.. I call a ball and a pocket and I drop the called ball, it's NOW my opponents turn, a shot is made and is missed, it's now my turn at the table.. hmmmmm no huge runs, no break & run possibility. Cue ball position after each shot becomes more critical as you are no longer setting up your own next shot but your opponents next shot... Each attempt at pocketing a ball is now two fold in that you're aiming to make a ball and a saftey play with the cue ball at the same time.. It could be interesting.. I'm gonna have to try this out ! ! !

For the love of everything good in this world.. no. Just.. no.

How about after player A gets done at the table, player B has a chance to tie or best player A's run? That's more like baseball.. you don't take turns swinging the bat, throwing the ball, etc.

Any more and I'll just disagree with anybody named Paul.

Tommy Joe
07-24-2013, 03:31 PM
[QUOTE=Paul Schofield;2932969]It’s not rocket science. All one has to do is pick out the common components of all successful sports and then identify what is missing in pool. Pool has a “FATAL FLAW”. Pool has its own glass ceiling.

Here is the “FATAL FLAW”: A player is entitled to play on offence and score without limit while an opponent sits idly without influence. The combination of these components is not a recipe for success. All sports know that this is unacceptable.


I believe the relative success of any sport today revolves more around how it's appeal adapts to television and those who watch it. I agree about the glass ceiling. All the top 9 ball players can run 9 balls and are expected to do it any time they have an open table, although they can't do it all the time no matter who they are.

I still think it's tv though. Look at golf. All the putts look tough. No way am I saying golf is tougher than pool, only that to the viewer the shots look tough. In pool the opposite is true, the better the game is played the easier it looks. No matter how well a golfer plays, the shots still look tough to the viewer. I'm not sure the average fan watching pool on tv is able to identify with the difficulty of the run outs. Maybe you can, but we're not talking about you or me or most who post here, we're talking about the average fan watching on tv. Even if they play the game for recreation, most don't play it well enough to understand the level of difficulty. Throw in the lack of emotional appeal that exists in boxing matches or MMA events or the final day of a golf major. There is often a love/hate factor involved in popular sports where the fan either loves or hates certain teams or players. That too is lacking in pool.

But so what? If you love the game, what difference does it make how popular it becomes or how much money the top players make? Who says just because somebody becomes good at a game that they deserve to become millionaires? Same with musicians. They claim to play because they love it, yet if the cash doesn't come their way they gripe that they're getting the short end of the stick and ***** about other inferior forms of music getting more exposure and being more popular. Truth is, it isn't written in stone somewhere that just because someone practices something and gets good at it that they have an automatic pass to a lifetime of fame and fortune. I do agree though that the table games are all good games and it is possible the best table game has not yet even been invented. Also, one last thing - tv makes the game look even easier than it is. The camera can't seem to capture the game as seen by the player or those watching nearby. Overall, my theory is that the game is not a major success on tv for two main reasons - the game looks easier than it is (to most viewers), and the players don't have stand-out personalities that cause viewers to form a love/hate relationship with the players that exists in other sports. Maybe if a few punches were thrown between sets?

TJ

bstroud
07-24-2013, 05:11 PM
Paul,

I haven't read the entire thread but I remember when I was in college there was a variation of straight pool where the break shot was set and each player alternated innings to see how many they could run. Or perhaps they had to stop at 15?

Eliminates all safety play and is fair and exciting to watch.

Another variation would be to alternate innings and see how many you could run in one pocket. Probably too tough.

Come up with a game that works and I will sponsor a tournament.

Bill S.

CocoboloCowboy
07-24-2013, 06:35 PM
Come up with a game that works and I will sponsor a tournament.

Bill S.

Bill would that be before or after you award the winner of your Design Your Dream Contest (http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=203624&highlight=design+dream) their prize, or after???????

spliced
07-24-2013, 07:19 PM
Paul,

I haven't read the entire thread but I remember when I was in college there was a variation of straight pool where the break shot was set and each player alternated innings to see how many they could run. Or perhaps they had to stop at 15?

Eliminates all safety play and is fair and exciting to watch.

Another variation would be to alternate innings and see how many you could run in one pocket. Probably too tough.

Come up with a game that works and I will sponsor a tournament.

Bill S.

I kind of like this. Play a predetermined number of innings. One player sets up a break shot and tries to run 15. Your turn ends when you miss. However may balls you makes is your score for that inning. Then its the other guys turn to set up a break shot and try to run 15. After the last inning, the player with the most balls wins.

I'm gonna try it.

I think 5-7 innings would be good. If you want, put a 15 minute time limit per inning.

BeiberLvr
07-24-2013, 08:13 PM
I kind of like this. Play a predetermined number of innings. One player sets up a break shot and tries to run 15. However may balls he makes is his score for that inning. Then its the other guys turn to set up a break shot and try to run 15. After the last inning, the player with the most balls wins.

I'm gonna try it.

Depending on your skill level, I think it would also work well if you combined it with Fargo and had to run the last 5 in order, but they are worth 2 points each.

dr9ball
07-24-2013, 09:05 PM
I

Baseball,

Technically in baseball, the first team to bat could keep hitting fair balls and getting on base till the end of time and if they don't get 3 outs they keep hitting don't they?

Tommy Joe
07-24-2013, 10:24 PM
Paul,

I haven't read the entire thread but I remember when I was in college there was a variation of straight pool where the break shot was set and each player alternated innings to see how many they could run. Or perhaps they had to stop at 15?

Eliminates all safety play and is fair and exciting to watch.

Another variation would be to alternate innings and see how many you could run in one pocket. Probably too tough.

Come up with a game that works and I will sponsor a tournament.

Bill S.


Even major successful tv sports like pro basketball and pro football need to make occasional concessions to stay afloat. The 3 point shot in basketball and the option to go for 2 points in football are good examples. Maybe some sort of incentive to run out could be introduced into some games without disturbing their original format. Other than that I don't see billiards becoming a top tv sport without the addition of fist fights or name calling. On a more realistic level, I always thought the idea of money matches shown direct from poolrooms might go over big. Of course like most reality type shows it wouldn't be long before even the most honest matchups would take on the contrived look of most reality shows resulting in suspicion that some of the games are not exactly on the level. But if it could be done, if it could be brought to the viewer that these two players are playing for all the marbles and one is going home broke, surely that would go over. But only if the viewer can be convinced the game they're watching is going to produce only one winner with the loser getting absolutely nothing. That would not be an easy sell. But it's an idea non the less.

TJ

Tommy Joe
07-24-2013, 10:27 PM
Technically in baseball, the first team to bat could keep hitting fair balls and getting on base till the end of time and if they don't get 3 outs they keep hitting don't they?


Watching a game like that would drive me batty.

TJ

Maniac
07-25-2013, 05:50 AM
Watching a game like that would drive me batty.

TJ

It'd be a very short drive too, eh???

Maniac

Dan_B
07-25-2013, 06:26 AM
I am with you. I am for everybody playing pool in any way they like (as long as they play).

In my opinion, organized pool's best chance of succeeding is with the bowling and golf template with one game and one set of rules. Play all the other games on the side.

4 BALL, scores like bowling, shooters play the same coarse, the table and pockets, the skill of the shot making is the difference. The shooters with cue ball control have the advantage. Great for practice/learn as I have had to do, if you can not back-up the cue ball with control, scoring will be difficult. It seems simple and uninteresting till you keep fouling out with 0's. It is at billiardscribdotcom

thewhiffer
07-25-2013, 07:42 AM
I initially, when I started to read this thread, thought that the FATAL FLAW in AZ , and other, other pool forums was allowing threads like this. It was a FLAWED premise FATED TO FAIL FATALLY. As I read some posts, I realized that I was wrong. No, not in my original assumption but in not taking into account the ingenuity of the AZ nation to make this into a thoughtful (mostly) brain storming session that produced some very good ideas.

I did not get through all 471 post, read about half, but there were some very good points raised and I would like to leverage them along with my own observations/opinions.

The alternate break format and the must win by both have merit as does loser break in terms of levelling the ability of both players to participate more. It was thought that 8 ball was easier to understand than the rotation games to the casual observer. All of these points have merit if the objective is to promote the game to a wider audience.

I would also add that to reach a wider audience through mainstream TV the presentation would have to change dramatically. Imagine all of the successful sports quoted here, Golf, Basketball, Baseball etc., if the TV networks showed an edited version, not live and sometimes out of sequence. Would those audiences be as rabid in supporting them as they now are?

Bonus Ball provides some good ideas. A time limit for each game with a shoot out if it is not finished on time, a shot clock on each shot and as an added bonus the players are mic’d so you can hear their strategy/interactions. The time limit might allow mainstream TV to broadcast live events.

I watched the US Open stream last year and, as a poolplayer, enjoyed watching the performance of break and runs that SVB put on in a match with Alex. However, as a fan, cheering for Alex....not so enjoyable watching Alex sit.

I watched a TAR PPV of 8 ball last night. Earl vs Jason Klatt. LOVED IT. Alternate break added to the excitement, the ability to run out now became exciting, sort of like keeping your serve in tennis.

As a player I enjoy playing against other players that have the potential to run out if you miss and they get to the table. Alternate break levels the playing field so the chances are there for both players and each shot has drama.

Thanks for sparking the debate. Paul. By the way, I believe Pool is alive and well and growing in terms of the amateur player (many who are not that far below pro level) it is the lack of an extended, non player, fan base for mass media that hurts the Pro level player. Maybe, buried in all of these posts, is the spark of an idea that will see it develope. Again, thanks.

DanielDeTinne
07-25-2013, 08:00 AM
So, as in most of those other sports... when one team scores, the other team gets to take over the object of play.. I guess with that being the case, Pocket Billiards could change so that each player shoots ONCE.. then it's the other players turn, weather the first shooter made anything or not.. hmmmmm, I break, and a ball is pocketed, table is still Open at that point.. I call a ball and a pocket and I drop the called ball, it's NOW my opponents turn, a shot is made and is missed, it's now my turn at the table.. hmmmmm no huge runs, no break & run possibility. Cue ball position after each shot becomes more critical as you are no longer setting up your own next shot but your opponents next shot... Each attempt at pocketing a ball is now two fold in that you're aiming to make a ball and a saftey play with the cue ball at the same time.. It could be interesting.. I'm gonna have to try this out ! ! !

I love this idea. I am going to try this. First to 100.

bstroud
07-25-2013, 09:15 AM
Her is another idea.

Could be 9 or 10 ball.

Two tables in the pit facing opposite directions.

One player on each table.

They break at the same time.

If they break and run they get 10 points.

If they miss they get ball in hand and continue to play. If they run our from there they get six points.

If they miss again they get ball in hand again and continue to shoot. If they run the remaining balls they get three points.

Three strikes and out.

If they string racks they would get bonus points so they are never really out of the match until the last rack. Say one bonus point for the second rack, 3 for the third rack and so on up the scale.

No safety. All shooting. Both players have the exact same opportunity.

Seems like an exciting format to me.

Bill S.

Banks
07-25-2013, 10:38 AM
Her is another idea.

Could be 9 or 10 ball.

Two tables in the pit facing opposite directions.

One player on each table.

They break at the same time.

If they break and run they get 10 points.

If they miss they get ball in hand and continue to play. If they run our from there they get six points.

If they miss again they get ball in hand again and continue to shoot. If they run the remaining balls they get three points.

Three strikes and out.

If they string racks they would get bonus points so they are never really out of the match until the last rack. Say one bonus point for the second rack, 3 for the third rack and so on up the scale.

No safety. All shooting. Both players have the exact same opportunity.

Seems like an exciting format to me.

Bill S.

That completely removes any real person-vs-person competition. It's like practice, only.. in front of people. If people didn't watch pool now, I really don't think they'd watch that. I could be wrong, though.

PS - All you have to do is say you're not making the cue and bring some closure.

frankncali
07-25-2013, 11:15 AM
A few thoughts and comments... firstly I agree with the OP that his point is something that the average viewer finds wrong.

Here in SoCal Ernesto used to have a thing called Equal Offense. They were pre set table layouts and you simply ran out and kept track of how many shots it took. Perform at one table then move to the next .. after going through them everyones scores were tallied and the top 5-10 went on to the "finals" and a different set of less layouts.

I enjoyed watching it and probably was in the minority thinking that it would be more interesting with some obstacles on the table. Anyway it was an "equal playing field".


We talked on here in the past about ghost tourneys. I always thought it was the way to go for spectators that wanted to see outs... Two players against each other ... one breaks and takes BIH and trys to runout..if successful he gets a point, next guy steps up and tries the same... make it a race to whatever and at least the players have a chance to match a guy instead of just sitting and never getting to do so... this is what makes golf appealing...
Recently a friend suggested figuring out a way someone could risk points earned on his next attempt to add in a gambling element and a chance for someone to make a comeback.

Mike Janis had a couple "ghost" tournaments a few years back. Not 100% how they turned out and what viewers thought. Someone on here should know and remember them.

I played leagues for a while and am not opposed to them at all. I have believed for years that we needed team pool with regionally based teams.... gives a fanbase per region and people like to pull for teams and people from regional locations.

I might be in the minority but I like Bonus Ball... I just watched a lot of episodes and found that I was inclined to pull for certain teams and players. I liked the team concept and even from watching the Mosconi Cup you can see the team concept adds some additional pressure to the players. I love hearing the interaction between the players as well. and the game isnt as bad as I was thinking. It adds in some elements that make in unique but familiar to other table games we are familiar with.

bstroud
07-25-2013, 11:18 AM
It actually doesn't remove person to person competition.

Your opponent is playing at the same time as you are.

Think you might want to see what he is doing? Maybe sneak a peak?

One of the main benefits to the spectator is that you get to see both players play a full set. Just like golf.

One player does not sit in his seat while the other plays.

Much better for the players and the spectators.

Bill S.

Paul Schofield
07-25-2013, 01:34 PM
Great sports have one thing in common: a very interesting human dynamic. Sports are merely a platform for the drama in diverse, human interaction. It is this that can make or break a sport. Think about poker. Its not about pool, folks. Bill Stroud gets it. He is talking about engaging both players at the same time as compared to what we do now.

I think its fun to brainstorm these things.

CrownCityCorey
07-25-2013, 01:41 PM
It’s not rocket science. All one has to do is pick out the common components of all successful sports and then identify what is missing in pool. Pool has a “FATAL FLAW”. Pool has its own glass ceiling.

Here is the “FATAL FLAW”: A player is entitled to play on offence and score without limit while an opponent sits idly without influence. The combination of these components is not a recipe for success. All sports know that this is unacceptable. No successful legitimate sport has this structure. This current structure of pool mirrors a video game, not a sport. Play Pac Man and make your opponent sit and watch you clear screens. Play pool and make your opponent sit and watch you run balls/racks.

Take note of the following: a 240,000 straight rail billiard run, a run of 622 balkline billiards, a run of 31 three cushion billiards, a run of 4137 points in English Billiards, a 526 ball run in straight pool, an 18 pack in bar-box nine-ball, an 11 pack in nine-ball on a big-table. Where are these games now? Are these examples of successful games with viable futures? All these games are evidence of failed attempts to come to terms with the “FATAL FLAW”. Players get good so let’s make the game harder. Is Ten Ball with tiny pockets the answer to improving interest in the game? I don’t think so.

Baseball, football, basketball, golf, bowling, and other successful sports have written into their rules, regular and predictable opportunities for players/teams to participate. This makes for viable competition and result in popular successful sports. Pool needs to look inward at its structure and look for ways to do the same. The fix would send pool’s evolution in an entirely different direction. Evolution takes a long time and pool is light years away from being ready for prime time. If the “FATAL FLAW” was fixed, I think it is very possible that over time, one new game would emerge that would have the broad based appeal needed so that pool could join all the other successful sports.

Great Post! Who ran 240k in Straight Rail?

sixpack
07-25-2013, 01:59 PM
I think equal offense scenarios are fun to play but as spectator sports it would be like watching batting practice.

The tete a tete in pool is above the heads of casual viewers and players. Football is easy to understand, baseball, golf, etc...The thing is they are all competing against people. Pool is a great game against people but it's not that exciting to watch when one player can take over the game and keep the other player powerless.

The question is: Do you want to entertain current fans or build a bigger fan base? If you want to entertain current fans then stay true to the game. If you want to build a new fan base then nothing is off-limits, but don't count on pool players to support you as fans.

Ralph Kramden
07-25-2013, 04:17 PM
Great sports have one thing in common: a very interesting human dynamic. Sports are merely a platform for the drama in diverse, human interaction. It is this that can make or break a sport. Think about poker. Its not about pool, folks. Bill Stroud gets it. He is talking about engaging both players at the same time as compared to what we do now.

I think its fun to brainstorm these things.

Paul... Do you have any shake bottles and peas (pills) at your room in Erie?

All the old time rooms had Pea Pool players. Everyone played.. You were never
eliminated.. If someone made your ball you could still make another players ball.

The game would bring interest to all players, even the novices new to your room.

Game rules are here: http://sites.google.com/site/poolandbilliard/Home/pea-pool
.

Maniac
07-25-2013, 06:35 PM
The tete a tete in pool is above the heads of casual viewers and players.

Best statement made on this thread!!!

And.....that's why pool has it's own uniqueness as opposed to other sports/games. It has a quality about it that is hard to put into words. I like it the way it is. There are PLENTY enough games already to keep pool interesting to the players. I can't ever see it appealing to spectators again (except hardcore to semi-hardcore players).

You know.....it's a tough game to get proficient at. Kids today want instant results/gratification. They'll be looking for something a little more challenging as they get older. Hell, I didn't start playing pool seriously until I was 53 years old. Before then, I may have gotten into a pool hall twice a year (in a GOOD year).

It (pool) ain't goin' nowhere. It's here to stay. There are peaks and valleys to everything in life.

Maniac

Tommy Joe
07-26-2013, 01:06 AM
I think equal offense scenarios are fun to play but as spectator sports it would be like watching batting practice.

The tete a tete in pool is above the heads of casual viewers and players. Football is easy to understand, baseball, golf, etc...The thing is they are all competing against people. Pool is a great game against people but it's not that exciting to watch when one player can take over the game and keep the other player powerless.

The question is: Do you want to entertain current fans or build a bigger fan base? If you want to entertain current fans then stay true to the game. If you want to build a new fan base then nothing is off-limits, but don't count on pool players to support you as fans.


I like pool and wish it were on tv more often. But I'm not dedicated to it. Not all games are built for mass spectator appeal. If it changes, I'm ok with that, because in the end all changes in everything are good (once they're over with).

But I do have an opinion. More than one actually, but I'll stick with one for now. I think the game of pool, for tv at least, could borrow a page from the trick shot format - shot challenges, race to 10, whatever, where one player sets up a shot, maybe even one requiring position for the next shot (which he must make to win or break even on that challenge). No props on the table, just one guy explaining a his shot, then shooting it, maybe with two or even three chances per challenge, then turning the table over to his opponent. This would not be trick shot shooting, they would be actual shots, banks and so forth, many requiring positions. These type events would never replace pool, and I don't think they should, but I noticed that while I'm not in love with the televised trick shot competitions, I do like the idea of borrowing a page from their book with top players challenging each other to make certain shots.

Other than that I have nothing to add because the truth is that if you like something, you should be content with that alone, and if it becomes popular that's good, and if it doesn't, that's just too bad, that's the way I look at it.

TJ

Island Drive
07-26-2013, 04:12 AM
I like pool and wish it were on tv more often. But I'm not dedicated to it. Not all games are built for mass spectator appeal. If it changes, I'm ok with that, because in the end all changes in everything are good (once they're over with).

Other than that I have nothing to add because the truth is that if you like something, you should be content with that alone, and if it becomes popular that's good, and if it doesn't, that's just too bad, that's the way I look at it.

TJ
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Paul Schofield
07-26-2013, 07:30 AM
The OP is not about viewing the game. It is about playing the game. In this "interactive age", pool has been left behind. I read here over and over that pool is not a spectator sport. This is so true in it's current form. Pool is a dryball game. If poker is a spectator sport, certainly pool could be, but not in its current form. The right human dynamic is key.

Pool has to be a platform for an interesting human dynamic in order for it to be watchable.

flyvirginiaguy
07-26-2013, 07:35 AM
Is Ten Ball with tiny pockets the answer to improving interest in the game? I don’t think so.

I do agree with this totally.

But billiards used to have many many viewers. You have to show it as a fun game to play again. Pros today DO NOT make the game look fun. Robots. I think the only flaw pool has is how it has been managed and the lack of properly promoting the sport the past many years, and that is as a very fun family oriented sport anyone can play.

krupa
07-26-2013, 08:43 AM
If poker is a spectator sport, certainly pool could be, but not in its current form. The right human dynamic is key.

Pool has to be a platform for an interesting human dynamic in order for it to be watchable.

Pool and poker are really not comparable at all. Personally, I think there are two reasons people watch poker: (1) the money and (2) the fact that they also play and can yell at the TV what the player should do. If the viewer makes the correct call, he feels good as if he, himself, won that money.

In other words, watching poker is vicarious entertainment.


vi·car·i·ous
adjective \vī-ˈker-ē-əs, və-\

3 : experienced or realized through imaginative or sympathetic participation in the experience of another <a vicarious thrill>


Pool is not as vicarious because knowing what shot to shoot is only a part of the game, you have to then be able to make it. Sure, plenty of people watch pros and say "I could take these guys" but that's not the same as the vicarious pleasure people get from watching poker.

Again, these are my own opinions and based on nothing more than the fact that I can't explain people's interest in watching poker any other way.

wineslob
07-26-2013, 09:59 AM
Pros today DO NOT make the game look fun. Robots.


I have to agree here. I watched the final table (Kim/Corr) a couple weeks ago and while I like seeing the level of play, neither player gave the match(s) any "pizzazz". Why the game (on TV) has become this way, I don't know. I'd like to see some "humanity" from the players.
The endless "personal interest" crap about the players didn't help either.

Celophanewrap
07-27-2013, 10:33 PM
So how do you propose to fix it?

Full contact team billiards.
sounds like a winner...

Paul Schofield
08-02-2013, 10:04 PM
Here is the best example of the Fatal Flaw.

http://www.eaba.co.uk/eaba/?p=5784

I wonder if this game is played anymore.

Masirib5
08-02-2013, 10:16 PM
I guess this "fatal flaw" as you call it was not detected way back when pool was king, reported in the papers, and pool players made a darn good living. Pool halls were thriving, fans wanted to watch, and pool legends were just that. And then this "flaw" was discovered, and poof,it was all over. Heck, I'd pay a few bucks and then some to watch Mosconi, Lassitar and quite a few others run balls, even hundreds of balls !!

Baseball must have fatal flaw as well, since it's the only sport that when you are on offense, you DON"T have the ball. How could that possibly work. All the other sports when on offense they present the ball to you in a gift basket to move forward and try to score. Basebal, the defense controls the ball and tries not to let you touch it. It is also the only sport where the ball does not score, but the man scores. A second flaw. Baseball is most likely doomed me thinks.
;)

And the defense in Baseball has ball in hand!!!! Ha!

popman
08-03-2013, 04:49 AM
Pool doesn’t have a glass ceiling.

The reason why pool doesn’t work as a spectator sport is because it’s not so much of a game of sport as it is an art. Art is not adversarial. It’s art. People try to make a sport out of something that is not really a sport. Pool is more of an exhibition than a sport. One player exhibits ones skill then the other person is allowed to do likewise.

All the “sports talk” ie: matchups, winning / losing, statistics and record keeping is nothing more than the talk around the table rather than what’s happening on the table.

In what “sport” do you see the participants take a break when they want to? In what “sport” do you see the player enjoying a cigarette while his “opponent” is playing?

When players try to make an art into a game of sport the whole thing becomes hard and difficult to comprehend and to watch because there is no systematic play at all. The interaction is purely judgmental and based on how the participate thinks and feels at any given moment.

How the game is played seems to change with who is playing and how they react to the situation at hand resulting in pool broadcasts becoming too hard to follow unless the watcher is well versed and educated in the games.

There is also cultural differences.




In the U.S. people want their spectator sports simple and easy to understand and followed up with a lot of physical action. This is the American culture.

In other parts of the world people tend to be more intellectual. Snooker and three cushion games do well because it’s geared for the intellectual rather than the physical.

This also is demonstrated in other areas. Take politics.


In the U.S. people hardly care about it. However in Europe people do care about it…a lot.

In France when the government proposed cut backs in social services the people took to the streets. In the U.S. when the government proposes cutbacks in social programs, the public yarns.


When the employers want to expand the work day in Europe the people will debate it. In the U.S. the people just do it and say nothing. If they do say something about they’re considered to be a liberal commie pinko and worse yet, a European Socialist!


In conclusion, pool is an art that people try to make into something that is not.

ND Fan
08-03-2013, 05:01 AM
I think the reputation pool has has kept it down as much as anything. But there just aren't aren't enough players any more. I can relate I played 3 cushion for a period of about 15 years pretty regular (well, everyday :) ) I haven't played in well over a year, hardly anyone to play and the room I used to play at sold one of their two sogaards. I honestly think what pool needs is another movie... seriously, the Color of Money came out and pool had a resurgence like no other. Pool halls are dying because no one is playing. If you want to benefit pool find a backer and quality director, producer. A good pool movie is a shot in the arm this game needs,

(((Satori)))
08-03-2013, 05:20 AM
I saw a couple of posts talking about how kids are into video games and stuff and pool is no longer attractive to them.

I doubt this. I think kids love the game. The problem is, where can they play it? Is mom going to drop Jr. off at the local poolhall? I don't think so. When I was a kid we had a youth center in both neighborhoods I grew up in and they both had pool tables. Is there anything like this for kids these days?

Ralph Kramden
08-03-2013, 09:45 AM
Here is the best example of the Fatal Flaw.

http://www.eaba.co.uk/eaba/?p=5784

I wonder if this game is played anymore.

Would you promote this game in Erie? I hope not... it certainly would be a fatal flaw.

What I hate on TV is the Simonis "pocket cam". If there's a tough position shot they
show the OB coming into the pocket, not how the player got shape on the next ball.

I'd rather see shots from the overhead camera. Even a novice would be impressed.

Ralph Kramden
08-03-2013, 09:53 AM
I saw a couple of posts talking about how kids are into video games and stuff and pool is no longer attractive to them.

I doubt this. I think kids love the game. The problem is, where can they play it? Is mom going to drop Jr. off at the local poolhall? I don't think so. When I was a kid we had a youth center in both neighborhoods I grew up in and they both had pool tables. Is there anything like this for kids these days?

There are tables in the Boys and Girls Clubs.... but most equipment is poor. There aren't
Instructors to really show the kids how to play. You could learn a lot in the old poolrooms.