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Paul Schofield
03-27-2011, 06:41 PM
It’s not rocket science. All one has to do is pick out the common components of all successful sports and then identify what is missing in pool. Pool has a “FATAL FLAW”. Pool has its own glass ceiling.

Here is the “FATAL FLAW”: A player is entitled to play on offence and score without limit while an opponent sits idly without influence. The combination of these components is not a recipe for success. All sports know that this is unacceptable. No successful legitimate sport has this structure. This current structure of pool mirrors a video game, not a sport. Play Pac Man and make your opponent sit and watch you clear screens. Play pool and make your opponent sit and watch you run balls/racks.

Take note of the following: a 240,000 straight rail billiard run, a run of 622 balkline billiards, a run of 31 three cushion billiards, a run of 4137 points in English Billiards, a 526 ball run in straight pool, an 18 pack in bar-box nine-ball, an 11 pack in nine-ball on a big-table. Where are these games now? Are these examples of successful games with viable futures? All these games are evidence of failed attempts to come to terms with the “FATAL FLAW”. Players get good so let’s make the game harder. Is Ten Ball with tiny pockets the answer to improving interest in the game? I don’t think so.

Baseball, football, basketball, golf, bowling, and other successful sports have written into their rules, regular and predictable opportunities for players/teams to participate. This makes for viable competition and result in popular successful sports. Pool needs to look inward at its structure and look for ways to do the same. The fix would send pool’s evolution in an entirely different direction. Evolution takes a long time and pool is light years away from being ready for prime time. If the “FATAL FLAW” was fixed, I think it is very possible that over time, one new game would emerge that would have the broad based appeal needed so that pool could join all the other successful sports.

Masayoshi
03-27-2011, 06:55 PM
It’s not rocket science. All one has to do is pick out the common components of all successful sports and then identify what is missing in pool. Pool has a “FATAL FLAW”. Pool has its own glass ceiling.

Here is the “FATAL FLAW”: A player is entitled to play on offence and score without limit while an opponent sits idly without influence. This is a recipe for absolute failure. All sports know that this is unacceptable. No successful legitimate sport has this structure. This current structure of pool mirrors a video game, not a sport. Play Pac Man and make your opponent sit and watch you clear screens. Play pool and make your opponent sit and watch you run balls/racks.

Take note of the following: a 240,000 straight rail billiard run, a run of 622 balkline billiards, a run of 31 three cushion billiards, a run of 4137 points in English Billiards, a 526 ball run in straight pool, an 18 pack in bar-box nine-ball, an 11 pack in nine-ball on a big-table. Where are these games now? Are these examples of successful games with viable futures? All these games are evidence of failed attempts to come to terms with the “FATAL FLAW”. Players get good so let’s make the game harder. Is Ten Ball with tiny pockets the answer to improving interest in the game? I don’t think so.

Baseball, football, basketball, golf, bowling, and other successful sports have written into their rules, regular and predictable opportunities for players/teams to participate. This makes for viable competition and result in popular successful sports. Pool needs to look inward at its structure and look for ways to do the same. The fix would send pool’s evolution in an entirely different direction. Evolution takes a long time and pool is light years away from being ready for prime time. If the “FATAL FLAW” was fixed, I think it is very possible that over time, one new game would emerge that would have the broad based appeal needed so that pool could join all the other successful sports.

Promoting pool in its current form is suicide.

How about snooker?

DogsPlayingPool
03-27-2011, 06:59 PM
Uh, golf has pretty broad based appeal, has major sponsorship, hugely successful tours, network TV plus it's own dedicated cable channel, and even the second tier & journeyman pros are millionaires.

In golf your competitor also doesn't play defense against you.

With all due respect, I don't think that's it.

manwon
03-27-2011, 07:04 PM
It’s not rocket science. All one has to do is pick out the common components of all successful sports and then identify what is missing in pool. Pool has a “FATAL FLAW”. Pool has its own glass ceiling.

Here is the “FATAL FLAW”: A player is entitled to play on offence and score without limit while an opponent sits idly without influence. This is a recipe for absolute failure. All sports know that this is unacceptable. No successful legitimate sport has this structure. This current structure of pool mirrors a video game, not a sport. Play Pac Man and make your opponent sit and watch you clear screens. Play pool and make your opponent sit and watch you run balls/racks.

Take note of the following: a 240,000 straight rail billiard run, a run of 622 balkline billiards, a run of 31 three cushion billiards, a run of 4137 points in English Billiards, a 526 ball run in straight pool, an 18 pack in bar-box nine-ball, an 11 pack in nine-ball on a big-table. Where are these games now? Are these examples of successful games with viable futures? All these games are evidence of failed attempts to come to terms with the “FATAL FLAW”. Players get good so let’s make the game harder. Is Ten Ball with tiny pockets the answer to improving interest in the game? I don’t think so.

Baseball, football, basketball, golf, bowling, and other successful sports have written into their rules, regular and predictable opportunities for players/teams to participate. This makes for viable competition and result in popular successful sports. Pool needs to look inward at its structure and look for ways to do the same. The fix would send pool’s evolution in an entirely different direction. Evolution takes a long time and pool is light years away from being ready for prime time. If the “FATAL FLAW” was fixed, I think it is very possible that over time, one new game would emerge that would have the broad based appeal needed so that pool could join all the other successful sports.

Promoting pool in its current form is suicide.



So how do you propose to fix it?

Paul Schofield
03-27-2011, 07:04 PM
A player is guaranteed to play 18 holes and putt the ball 18 times into the hole. Golf is very good. Imagine if only one golfer was allowed to play hole after hole until he bogied and then and only then could his opponent play.

It is the preservation of the “FATAL FLAW” that is at the very root of all of pool’s troubles resulting in a seemingly endless evolution and parade of pool games. PROOF: The story of billiards path from straight rail all the way to three-cushion is really a story about the “FATAL FLAW”. It is a story about how a simple and beautiful game that everyone could understand and anyone could play evolved to a game that few can understand and even fewer can play. It is a story of how a game developed into a cult game and essentially became irrelevant in the main stream. Save the “FATAL FLAW”

This is also the story of pocket pool games. The “FATAL FLAW” is preserved while pool makes these giant leaps into new territories. Each and every step, the game becomes more and more difficult, alienating more and more potential players and confused spectators. In an effort to minimize the “FATAL FLAW”, the tiny pocket has emerged. This could very well be the death throes for pocket games. The leap to Ten-Ball parallels Billiards trek to its final resting place (Three Cushion Billiards).

DogsPlayingPool
03-27-2011, 07:09 PM
Here is the “FATAL FLAW”: A player is entitled to play on offence and score without limit while an opponent sits idly without influence.

Not in alternate break. :grin:

Paul Schofield
03-27-2011, 07:14 PM
Not in alternate break. :grin:

Good one. I don't want to go down this path BUT...alternate breaks only gurantees a player breaks, it does not guarantee that he gets to play. He only hopes to play.

DogsPlayingPool
03-27-2011, 07:27 PM
Really though, with the possible exception of 14.1 when played at the expert level, for all practical purposes in every game played professionally both players get their chances. This is true in 8, 9, & 10 Ball races as well as in one pocket.

And even in 14.1, the round robin format pretty much minimizes a player going two and out without ever getting a chance other than the opening break. And in straight pool if someone in the room was on the verge of running 150 and out off the opening break all eyes in the room would be on that match.

ChicagoRJ
03-27-2011, 07:39 PM
I guess this "fatal flaw" as you call it was not detected way back when pool was king, reported in the papers, and pool players made a darn good living. Pool halls were thriving, fans wanted to watch, and pool legends were just that. And then this "flaw" was discovered, and poof,it was all over. Heck, I'd pay a few bucks and then some to watch Mosconi, Lassitar and quite a few others run balls, even hundreds of balls !!

Baseball must have fatal flaw as well, since it's the only sport that when you are on offense, you DON"T have the ball. How could that possibly work. All the other sports when on offense they present the ball to you in a gift basket to move forward and try to score. Basebal, the defense controls the ball and tries not to let you touch it. It is also the only sport where the ball does not score, but the man scores. A second flaw. Baseball is most likely doomed me thinks.
;)

hangemhigh
03-27-2011, 07:42 PM
Uh, golf has pretty broad based appeal, has major sponsorship, hugely successful tours, network TV plus it's own dedicated cable channel, and even the second tier & journeyman pros are millionaires.

In golf your competitor also doesn't play defense against you.

With all due respect, I don't think that's it.

That is why Golf got rid of the Stymie in '52.

mnorwood
03-27-2011, 07:44 PM
It’s not rocket science. All one has to do is pick out the common components of all successful sports and then identify what is missing in pool. Pool has a “FATAL FLAW”. Pool has its own glass ceiling.

Here is the “FATAL FLAW”: A player is entitled to play on offence and score without limit while an opponent sits idly without influence. This is a recipe for absolute failure. All sports know that this is unacceptable. No successful legitimate sport has this structure. This current structure of pool mirrors a video game, not a sport. Play Pac Man and make your opponent sit and watch you clear screens. Play pool and make your opponent sit and watch you run balls/racks.

Take note of the following: a 240,000 straight rail billiard run, a run of 622 balkline billiards, a run of 31 three cushion billiards, a run of 4137 points in English Billiards, a 526 ball run in straight pool, an 18 pack in bar-box nine-ball, an 11 pack in nine-ball on a big-table. Where are these games now? Are these examples of successful games with viable futures? All these games are evidence of failed attempts to come to terms with the “FATAL FLAW”. Players get good so let’s make the game harder. Is Ten Ball with tiny pockets the answer to improving interest in the game? I don’t think so.

Baseball, football, basketball, golf, bowling, and other successful sports have written into their rules, regular and predictable opportunities for players/teams to participate. This makes for viable competition and result in popular successful sports. Pool needs to look inward at its structure and look for ways to do the same. The fix would send pool’s evolution in an entirely different direction. Evolution takes a long time and pool is light years away from being ready for prime time. If the “FATAL FLAW” was fixed, I think it is very possible that over time, one new game would emerge that would have the broad based appeal needed so that pool could join all the other successful sports.

Promoting pool in its current form is suicide.

So what do you suggest?

DogsPlayingPool
03-27-2011, 07:48 PM
That is why Golf got rid of the Stymie in '52.

Yes, the did away with what little defense there was in the game and it's bigger than ever.

Paul Schofield
03-27-2011, 07:57 PM
Really though, with the possible exception of 14.1 when played at the expert level, for all practical purposes in every game played professionally both players get their chances. This is true in 8, 9, & 10 Ball races as well as in one pocket.

And even in 14.1, the round robin format pretty much minimizes a player going two and out without ever getting a chance other than the opening break.

I am saying that every effort should be made to guarantee opportunities at the table. The more often both players can be brought back to the table in a way that makes sense, the more viable and entertaining the competition will be. This will also mean that matches will be much closer and the better player will actually win more often. This makes the game more palatable to everyone.

I am saying that there is not enough back and forth and no, I do not think that players get their chances. This is why we keep jumping to new games.

DogsPlayingPool
03-27-2011, 08:10 PM
I am saying that every effort should be made to guarantee opportunities at the table. The more often both players can be brought back to the table in a way that makes sense, the more viable and entertaining the competition will be. This will also mean that matches will be much closer and the better player will actually win more often. This makes the game more palatable to everyone.

I am saying that there is not enough back and forth and no, I do not think that players get their chances. This is why we keep jumping to new games.

Honestly, we keep jumping to new games? Wasn't it straight pool for decades and 9 Ball for decades after that? I'd hardly call that jumping around from game to game. And the current increase in popularity of 10 Ball is not really about players not getting enough chances in 9 Ball. You know better than most what it is about - no conflict and reducing the luck factor. ;)

Paul Schofield
03-27-2011, 08:10 PM
Here is the “FATAL FLAW”: A player is entitled to play on offence and score without limit while an opponent sits idly without influence.

I think I should be clearer. It is not any one of these but it is the presence of all 3 of these components together that is the "FATAL FLAW". No legitimate successful sport has all 3.

manwon
03-27-2011, 08:15 PM
A player is guaranteed to play 18 holes and putt the ball 18 times into the hole. Golf is very good. Imagine if only one golfer was allowed to play hole after hole until he bogied and then and only then could his opponent play.

It is the preservation of the “FATAL FLAW” that is at the very root of all of pool’s troubles resulting in a seemingly endless evolution and parade of pool games. PROOF: The story of billiards path from straight rail all the way to three-cushion is really a story about the “FATAL FLAW”. It is a story about how a simple and beautiful game that everyone could understand and anyone could play evolved to a game that few can understand and even fewer can play. It is a story of how a game developed into a cult game and essentially became irrelevant in the main stream. Save the “FATAL FLAW”

This is also the story of pocket pool games. The “FATAL FLAW” is preserved while pool makes these giant leaps into new territories. Each and every step, the game becomes more and more difficult, alienating more and more potential players and confused spectators. In an effort to minimize the “FATAL FLAW”, the tiny pocket has emerged. This could very well be the death throes for pocket games. The leap to Ten-Ball parallels Billiards trek to its final resting place (Three Cushion Billiards).



So what do you propose to fix it?

I am not being a smart ass, I am truly interested in your thought's.

Paul Schofield
03-27-2011, 08:20 PM
Honestly, we keep jumping to new games? Wasn't it straight pool for decades and 9 Ball for decades after that? I'd hardly call that jumping around from game to game. And the current increase in popularity of 10 Ball is not really about players not getting enough chances in 9 Ball. You know better than most what it is about - no conflict. ;)

I must respectfully disagree. It is jumping around. I don't know any legitamate sport that has experienced the gyrations that pool has.

Nine-Ball is far too difficult for the general public to play or understand. How did we get to Nine-Ball? Ten-Ball is more of the same but only worse. The next leap from Nine to Ten-Ball is founded in pool's "FATAL FLAW".

Manwon: I will get there later. I have got to get to work. I have a two hour appointment with my checkbook.

Hustlehard
03-27-2011, 08:22 PM
Whats up guys i just joined and there seems to be alot of threads talking about how pool is dying and pool is flawed, yall should just quit if you dont like it i think pool is fine the way it is....

Besides phenolic tips and jump cues they gotta go, im only 21 and i feel like the only one that doesnt use them.

DogsPlayingPool
03-27-2011, 08:29 PM
I must respectfully disagree. It is jumping around. I don't know any legitamate sport that has experienced the girations that pool has.

Nine-Ball is far too difficult for the general public to play or understand. How did we get to Nine-Ball? Ten-Ball is more of the same but only worse. The next leap from Nine to Ten-Ball is founded in pool's "FATAL FLAW".

Manwon: I will get there later. I have got to get to work. I have a two hour appointment with my checkbook.

The ability to play a variety of games is in the nature of pool and frankly is one of the things I find appealing and interesting about it. It is similar to poker in that regard. Don't particularly like Hold 'em, play 7 stud, etc.

On the professional level I like this variety as well. I enjoy watching pros play 8 Ball, for example. The recent US Bar Table Championships was quite interesting, with a chance to watch top players compete in several disciplines. And of course there is the Derby, probably one of the most popular pool events going.

classiccues
03-27-2011, 08:45 PM
In golf there are two other constraints.. the weather and the course. The issue with pool is you cannot due anything to these other factors.

Have the opponent shoot b-b's into your ass while you are shooting?

There are plenty of other sports where the opponent has to wait. Ski-jumping, skating, etc.. In straight pool, lets say there is a 150 and out, maybe your opponent should be awarded the same opportunity to tie, forcing a playoff of sorts? You have it in artistic pool, both opponents have chances.

Pool is waining because let's face it, if you don't know the ins and outs it will not interest you. In the spring and summer, a lot of people have alternatives, now with CPU's, PS3's, Wii's, etc.. in the winter people have things to do.

Did you ever think why bowling is more popular than pool? You don't need to run 150 balls, 6 racks of nine ball, etc.. you get a frame, you throw two balls, and then you're done. Have a beer, a hot dog, etc.. your opponent gets the same opportunity and you're back up in 5 minutes. It's non-thinking to a degree. You don't worry about whether your bowling ball is spliced, inlaid, is low deflection, or you're on some magic ball makers 10 year waiting list.

What someone needs to do at ESPN, is show there is more to pool than pool. Do a few segments on cues, how they are made, the collectibility of cues, and pool memorabilia. Do something on tables, how they are made, etc.. Also during a commercial break there should be a 30 second instructional. How to draw, how to follow, how and why on playing position. This way maybe people will at least see there is more to pool than slamming balls into pockets.

JV

Paul Schofield
03-27-2011, 08:45 PM
The ability to play a variety of games is in the nature of pool and frankly is one of the things I find appealing and interesting about it.

I am with you. I am for everybody playing pool in any way they like (as long as they play).

In my opinion, organized pool's best chance of succeeding is with the bowling and golf template with one game and one set of rules. Play all the other games on the side.

victorl
03-27-2011, 08:49 PM
The fatal flaw is what makes pool so unique. Against a good player, getting chances to shoot is not a privelege, its something you have to earn and fight for. Few other sports give you the freedom to play uninhibited by an opponent and also punishes your mistakes as much as pool. And at least for me, the power to turn your opponent into a helpless spectator is the one thing that keeps me coming back for more.

Vic

xpatcan1
03-27-2011, 08:51 PM
Good one. I don't want to go down this path BUT...alternate breaks only gurantees a player breaks, it does not guarantee that he gets to play. He only hopes to play.

You could alternate breaks with a forced push out every rack?

RackemBilliards
03-27-2011, 09:33 PM
How about snooker?

I might be wrong about this, but I think until recently snooker has been mostly an elitist sport in England-played largely by the pros and higher income folks and no so much by the 'general public'. It has been very popular among spectators, though that may be waning a bit now. Since the 40s or 50s, pool has not enjoyed the status of a big time sport in this country. Will it ever again? I don't know, but I CAN tell you that it is no closer now than it was when I started in the pool hall business in 1990-it's probably farther away. Pool has enjoyed two popularity booms, once following 'The Hustler', and then again following 'The Color of Money'. Neither time were we able to convert the short term popularity into a long term professional sport akin to golf, tennis, or, crap, even beach volleyball! There's probably several reasons. It's a very difficult game, taking years of dedication to become proficient and that's not good for the 'want it now' generation. The games we play may not be interesting enough for the general population. The image is still dark after all these years, and although we always thought the gambling was a huge negative, the recent poker boom kind of shoots that down doesn't it? All of those things, in my opinion, do not detract from the greatness of pool. Chess, for non or casual players, is hard to understand, difficult to learn, boring to watch, will absolutely never enjoy widespread popularity as a spectator sport-and is one of the GREAT games ever created by mankind. Widespread popularity is rarely the measure of greatness. 'McDonalds' and 'American Idol' are good examples of that. It would be nice if pool could achieve a level in this country where our pro players could make the living they deserve as the best in a sport as widely played as ours. I'm not sure if I will ever see that. As for me? I spent the first 20 years in the pool hall business trying to convince the crowd who didn't want to play pool why they SHOULD want to play. I'm through with that. I hope to spend the next 20 creating an environment and opportunities for those who DO want to play this great sport.

sfleinen
03-27-2011, 10:20 PM
Folks:

I see a lot of "so, what's wrong with pool?", "what is this fatal flaw?", "so, what do you suggest?" type replies. This is Paul Schofield, folks -- you *know* where he's going with this!

The "Fatal Flaw", you ask? His assertion of "luck on the break." I.e. the requirement that you pocket a ball on the break to retain control of the table is "luck." I.e. "You should not be required to pocket a ball on the break." I.e. Paul Schofield's "No Cornflakes" rules are much better and dispense with pool's "Fatal Flaw."

Are you folks that gullible? I have a nice lime-green JitterBug lure that I'm casting out to you... oooo, doesn't it look delicious? Wanna bite?

-Sean

maidenfreak
03-27-2011, 10:20 PM
So what do you propose to fix it?

I am not being a smart ass, I am truly interested in your thought's.

I would like to know your thoughts as well.

CJFinkle
03-27-2011, 10:27 PM
As a recent billiards enthusiast, this thread is quite interesting. I did not realize there were these problems you all are talking about. Assuming the fatal flaw was out the window, would it change the sport all that much?

-CJ

Paul Schofield
03-27-2011, 11:25 PM
As a recent billiards enthusiast, this thread is quite interesting. I did not realize there were these problems you all are talking about. Assuming the fatal flaw was out the window, would it change the sport all that much?

-CJ

I can only guess but I would say most definately. Remember that pool is not like other sports. It is a game that has yet to find itself. It is in a constant state of flux. If the pool community came to terms with its "FATAL FLAW", it would change the mindset of the game and the direction of the games evolution and development. Maybe a new game would emerge that had universal appeal to novices and pros alike. Golf and bowling each have one game that has universal appeal. Pool has no chance of achieving the same if it protects its "FATAL FLAW".

Paul Schofield
03-27-2011, 11:40 PM
You could alternate breaks with a forced push out every rack?

This is an excellent idea. I did experiment with this. Players are much more willing to embrace an enabling rule rather than a disabling rule. The pushout rule disabled the shooter. The players would not accept it.

CarlB
03-27-2011, 11:48 PM
As I read this...I can't help but to wait for a book or a DVD called the "FATAL FLAW" lol.
the caps make me laugh a little everytime.

I think there was a suggestion from someone before about a 14.1 style tournament where people were shooting for either a total ball count in so many innings, or an average high ball run with x amount of attempts. Players could play on tables side by side, or one after another on one table. It would keep the competition feeling while eliminating the one sidedness of running balls like you mentioned.

Thoughts?

Carl

Paul Schofield
03-27-2011, 11:58 PM
I think there was a suggestion from someone before about a 14.1 style tournament where people were shooting for either a total ball count in so many innings, or an average high ball run with x amount of attempts. Players could play on tables side by side, or one after another on one table. It would keep the competition feeling while eliminating the one sidedness of running balls like you mentioned.

Thoughts?

Carl

Good thinking. Jerry Breisath (a nationally recognized instructor) devoted an gallant effort to a similar concept he devised called Equal Offense. Here is the problem with that: pool players want to play interactive games. They have only anectotal interest in scored games like Bowliards, Stroke Play, and Equal Offense. The players won't play scored games. Players rule.

CarlB
03-28-2011, 12:12 AM
hmm, good point. since you compare to other sports...what about a pure offense vs defense situation.

Where one player MUST play defensive shots (safeties) while the other attempts to make a good hit off of their safety. I should probably copyright this before putting it out there because the more i think of it, the better it sounds.

Player A Breaks...the player on offense is the breaker (trying to pocket as many balls as he can and eliminate easy defensive play.

Immediately after the break, the defensive player takes his safety shot. The offensive player then attempts to make a good hit on the lowest # ball on the table.

Good hit = +1 point for player A
Bad hit = +1 point for player B
Pocketing the ball = +2 points for player A.

Rinse and repeat. There are a ton of opportunities to take this idea to the next level, i.e. it would force people to get better at safety plays.
It eliminates the "running" of balls.
Every shot is the other player.
Banking and kicking are renewed and not just for bank pool.

Thoughts?

Carl

CarlB
03-28-2011, 12:13 AM
I really like my idea...if anyone steals it...ya better give me credit. lmao.

In fact...I think I am going to work up a full game list of rules.

Carl

Wags
03-28-2011, 12:27 AM
I agree that pool is one of the few games that you can lose without ever playing or getting any kind of a shot at playing.

Perfect games are difficult. Rarely does an opponent not get a chance at the table. That said......

To take that element out of the game and make a fair playing field, I used to think about a giant pin-setter like in bowling (s'pose in pool in would be a ball-setter). I have up-graded my thought as the computer age came about.

So, One player breaks the balls and a laser scans the table (I think of it as a big bar code scanner like a medical imaging device) and precisely remembers where every ball is. The breaker then tries to run the rack. Maybe the breaker gets a point for every ball made plus a bonus for completing the run-out. The computer then shows the referee where the balls were after the break and the opponent gets the same chance. The break would be alternating.

We now have a game with equal opportunity. The players start with the same lay-out, although they may play the pattern differently. Easy enough to add "no-luck" rules for the pros. It's all offense. It's about making the shot that your opponent misses. The better shot-maker, that day, will win just like in golf.

Can you see the TV with a split screen showing how the first player played the run while the opponent is making their run? Strengths and weaknesses would show up pretty quick. Missed shapes, breakouts, different approaches and patterns could be analyzed.

I am looking for someone with the expertise to make a prototype. I would think that with today's technology that it is possible.

Note: it could be used for almost any cuesport game (with some modification of rules) on any table with the most glaring exception of one-pocket.

C'mon guys, give me some constructive feedback, good or bad.

Paul Schofield
03-28-2011, 12:29 AM
I once experimented with what would be on paper the perfect game. I would describe it as 1 and stop straight pool. Play with a full rack of 15 balls and the first player to make 8 wins. You can only make 1 ball and then you give the table up to an opponent. Just imagine the strategy. Here was the problem: Many skills typically used in most games were eliminated. Thinking 2, 3, and 4 balls ahead was renderred moot. Running balls is fun. Being limited to only 1 ball took a lot of the fun out of the game.

CarlB
03-28-2011, 12:31 AM
I agree that pool is one of the few games that you can lose without ever playing or getting any kind of a shot at playing.

Perfect games are difficult. Rarely does an opponent not get a chance at the table. That said......

To take that element out of the game and make a fair playing field, I used to think about a giant pin-setter like in bowling (s'pose in pool in would be a ball-setter). I have up-graded my thought as the computer age came about.

So, One player breaks the balls and a laser scans the table (I think of it as a big bar code scanner like a medical imaging device) and precisely remembers where every ball is. The breaker then tries to run the rack. Maybe the breaker gets a point for every ball made plus a bonus for completing the run-out. The computer then shows the referee where the balls were after the break and the opponent gets the same chance. The break would be alternating.

We now have a game with equal opportunity. The players start with the same lay-out, although they may play the pattern differently. Easy enough to add "no-luck" rules for the pros. It's all offense. It's about making the shot that your opponent misses. The better shot-maker, that day, will win just like in golf.

Can you see the TV with a split screen showing how the first player played the run while the opponent is making their run? Strengths and weaknesses would show up pretty quick. Missed shapes, breakouts, different approaches and patterns could be analyzed.

I am looking for someone with the expertise to make a prototype. I would think that with today's technology that it is possible.

Note: it could be used for almost any cuesport game (with some modification of rules) on any table with the most glaring exception of one-pocket.

C'mon guys, give me some constructive feedback, good or bad.

As Mr. Paul stated... "Here is the problem with that: pool players want to play interactive games. They have only anectotal interest in scored games like Bowliards, Stroke Play, and Equal Offense. The players won't play scored games. Players rule."

I think your game would take the "interactive" part out.

JMHO
Carl

CarlB
03-28-2011, 12:33 AM
I think your catch 22 then would be that you can not keep the aspect of running balls AND eliminate the aspect of your opponent sitting. It wont happen.

I think my offensive/defensive game would work, you wouldn't be thinking multi-ball runs. but you emphasis the offense and defensive nature of the game. Each player would be shooting often, and would get equal opportunity to play offense and defense.

You lag and the winner picks offense or defense first.

Come on, you gotta admit its intriguing...like I said, the more I think of it, the more I like it.

Carl

Wags
03-28-2011, 12:35 AM
hmm, good point. since you compare to other sports...what about a pure offense vs defense situation.

Where one player MUST play defensive shots (safeties) while the other attempts to make a good hit off of their safety. I should probably copyright this before putting it out there because the more i think of it, the better it sounds.

Player A Breaks...the player on offense is the breaker (trying to pocket as many balls as he can and eliminate easy defensive play.

Immediately after the break, the defensive player takes his safety shot. The offensive player then attempts to make a good hit on the lowest # ball on the table.

Good hit = +1 point for player A
Bad hit = +1 point for player B
Pocketing the ball = +2 points for player A.

Rinse and repeat. There are a ton of opportunities to take this idea to the next level, i.e. it would force people to get better at safety plays.
It eliminates the "running" of balls.
Every shot is the other player.
Banking and kicking are renewed and not just for bank pool.

Thoughts?

Carl

Actually, I use that game when teaching safeties. The guy playing defense can only win by 3 fouling the offensive player. But I like your point approach.

Ron F
03-28-2011, 12:37 AM
I may (or may not) have the FATAL FLAW solution. I propose Billiard Curling, which would be similar to the winter Olympic sport in some ways.

For all practical purposes, the only rule change for the shooter would be that every shot must be hit softly. When the shooter is at the table, however, his opponent will be on defense. While on defense the opponent is equipped with a table brush attached to a long handle. The job when playing defense is to brush the nap of the table vigorously in front of your opponent's ball as it progresses toward the pocket in an effort to change the direction of the ball enough for it to miss or come up short of the pocket. Shouting and yelling will be allowed by the defensive player, as will blowing on the ball in an effort to change its' course, but only after the ball has been struck. To make this new sport far more interesting, a return to the 80/20 high nap cloth will be in order.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idSdnubrlds

Wags
03-28-2011, 12:39 AM
As Mr. Paul stated... "Here is the problem with that: pool players want to play interactive games. They have only anectotal interest in scored games like Bowliards, Stroke Play, and Equal Offense. The players won't play scored games. Players rule."

I think your game would take the "interactive" part out.

JMHO
Carl

If it drew an audience and there was money in it...you can bet the pros would play it.

Actually it is interactive with the split screen. The players just aren't playing at exactly the same time but they are playing under exactly the same conditions.

Wags
03-28-2011, 12:43 AM
I really like my idea...if anyone steals it...ya better give me credit. lmao.

In fact...I think I am going to work up a full game list of rules.

Carl

Thanks for reminding me.

I really like my idea...if anyone steals it...ya better give me credit. lmao

CarlB
03-28-2011, 12:45 AM
Thanks for reminding me.

I really like my idea...if anyone steals it...ya better give me credit. lmao

Classic!!! Love it. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Carl

Hustlehard
03-28-2011, 12:50 AM
No sport is perfect anyway i can find something wrong with every game, doesnt mean i still wont participate or watch.

Wags
03-28-2011, 12:50 AM
Good thinking. Jerry Breisath (a nationally recognized instructor) devoted an gallant effort to a similar concept he devised called Equal Offense. Here is the problem with that: pool players want to play interactive games. They have only anectotal interest in scored games like Bowliards, Stroke Play, and Equal Offense. The players won't play scored games. Players rule.

Paul, I respectully disagree. If there was enough money in it and tournaments, the pros would be ther with bells on. Those games still don't give an equal field because the object balll positions are different every time.

jwpretd
03-28-2011, 12:54 AM
Personally, for the rotation games and eight ball, I think alternate breaks would be a good idea. However, with that there would need to be a "win by 2 games" rule, the intent being to force the winner to have won at least one game on the loser's break. Or perhaps something like the "equal number of innings" rule in billiards, though it's unclear exactly how you would work that.

Or just go to call pocket 15-ball rotation, using either ball-value scoring or doing it like ten ball. That'd pretty much guarantee both players chances to shoot. Unless maybe one of them is Reyes.

Wags
03-28-2011, 01:01 AM
Personally, for the rotation games and eight ball, I think alternate breaks would be a good idea. However, with that there would need to be a "win by 2 games" rule, the intent being to force the winner to have won at least one game on the loser's break. Or perhaps something like the "equal number of innings" rule in billiards, though it's unclear exactly how you would work that.

Or just go to call pocket 15-ball rotation, using either ball-value scoring or doing it like ten ball. That'd pretty much guarantee both players chances to shoot. Unless maybe one of them is Reyes.

I've seen Alex run out a couple times in a row. He was playing and betting on the 15 ball ghost. How strong is that?

I always did like the "win-by-two" tournaments. I ran a lot of those back in the '80's. The Mosconi Cup this year showed how the alternating break format can make matches close.

BasementDweller
03-28-2011, 05:55 AM
I don't quite agree with this "FATAL FLAW" notion. I still believe that there are a lot of people that are attracted to greatness. This is why I will watch a major golf tournament on Sunday's but I don't even play golf. So, I really don't think you can take the high runs out of pool without hurting the game. By hurting the game, I'm not necessarily referring to making it less marketable, but hurting it for the PLAYERS. After all, if you make the game less enjoyable for the people that love it in an effort to make it more marketable to those that don't even care about it, what do you really gain in the long run?

A middle ground would be something along the lines of each player gets to break for a certain number of racks in a row (playing 9 or 10 ball). I was thinking 3 racks. This would give a player enough racks to showcase their talent for running balls. A 3 pack would mean something and if the game was coming down to the wire and a player was down 2 racks but just began breaking he would have the opportunity to run out the match. This would make for an exciting match for me.

The idea that each player has to have a turn at the table every rack is something I don't agree with, nor do I understand it.

watchez
03-28-2011, 08:09 AM
It is not that pool doesn't have a defense as part of the game - it does.

But pool is the only game I can think of that you can win without your opponent getting an opportunity to play. In golf, both players get a chance to hit the ball.

(although I do not find this pool's fatal flaw)

Roger Long
03-28-2011, 09:56 AM
Uh, golf has pretty broad based appeal, has major sponsorship, hugely successful tours, network TV plus it's own dedicated cable channel, and even the second tier & journeyman pros are millionaires.

In golf your competitor also doesn't play defense against you.

With all due respect, I don't think that's it.

But the difference is that all players get their chance to shoot. I think that's the most important point Paul is trying to make.

Roger

Paul Schofield
03-28-2011, 10:12 AM
Let me try this from a different angle.

Where would basketball be today if a team kept the ball after they scored? Every legitimate sport has its own way of creating "back and forth" and promoting viable competition. I shoot till I miss while you sit and do nothing about it does not cut it.

Do we want to make pool players or do we want to make them quit?

MOJOE
03-28-2011, 10:15 AM
I like where this is going and feel that Paul is on to something.. Paul, are you the one that runs the tournaments that the player gets to shoot after he/she breaks whether a ball is pocketed on the break or not? Alternate break of course..

I really like that concept!

Maniac
03-28-2011, 10:16 AM
Are you folks that gullible? I have a nice lime-green JitterBug lure that I'm casting out to you... oooo, doesn't it look delicious? Wanna bite?

-Sean

Does it have a white belly, with black spots on its back outlined in white? That would be your basic frog pattern. Got one. Got a Hula Popper in the same pattern :thumbup:!!!

Maniac

DaveK
03-28-2011, 10:20 AM
I might be wrong about this, but I think until recently snooker has been mostly an elitist sport in England-played largely by the pros and higher income folks and no so much by the 'general public'.

Tell that to Andy Capp :p

Dave

Paul Schofield
03-28-2011, 10:23 AM
I like where this is going and feel that Paul is on to something.. Paul, are you the one that runs the tournaments that the player gets to shoot after he/she breaks whether a ball is pocketed on the break or not? Alternate break of course..

I really like that concept!

Yes I am, but that is not what this thread is about.

supergreenman
03-28-2011, 10:25 AM
It’s not rocket science. All one has to do is pick out the common components of all successful sports and then identify what is missing in pool. Pool has a “FATAL FLAW”. Pool has its own glass ceiling.

Here is the “FATAL FLAW”: A player is entitled to play on offence and score without limit while an opponent sits idly without influence. The combination of these three together is a recipe for absolute failure. All sports know that this is unacceptable. No successful legitimate sport has this structure. This current structure of pool mirrors a video game, not a sport. Play Pac Man and make your opponent sit and watch you clear screens. Play pool and make your opponent sit and watch you run balls/racks.

Take note of the following: a 240,000 straight rail billiard run, a run of 622 balkline billiards, a run of 31 three cushion billiards, a run of 4137 points in English Billiards, a 526 ball run in straight pool, an 18 pack in bar-box nine-ball, an 11 pack in nine-ball on a big-table. Where are these games now? Are these examples of successful games with viable futures? All these games are evidence of failed attempts to come to terms with the “FATAL FLAW”. Players get good so let’s make the game harder. Is Ten Ball with tiny pockets the answer to improving interest in the game? I don’t think so.

Baseball, football, basketball, golf, bowling, and other successful sports have written into their rules, regular and predictable opportunities for players/teams to participate. This makes for viable competition and result in popular successful sports. Pool needs to look inward at its structure and look for ways to do the same. The fix would send pool’s evolution in an entirely different direction. Evolution takes a long time and pool is light years away from being ready for prime time. If the “FATAL FLAW” was fixed, I think it is very possible that over time, one new game would emerge that would have the broad based appeal needed so that pool could join all the other successful sports.

Promoting pool in its current form is suicide.

If you think it's so flawed, the answer is simple. Don't play. I on the other hand, love it because of it's "flaws" I love that you can close out a game or a match with out your opponent ever shooting.

BasementDweller
03-28-2011, 10:28 AM
Let me try this from a different angle.

Where would basketball be today if a team kept the ball after they scored? Every legitimate sport has its own way of creating "back and forth" and promoting viable competition. I shoot till I miss while you sit and do nothing about it does not cut it.

Do we want to make pool players or do we want to make them quit?

Well, how about tennis???

Should they alternate the serve after every point? I don't think so. At the same time, I wouldn't like it if you had the same player serving the whole match. This is why I like my previous idea of a set number of breaks before the break switches to the other player.

I know from reading your previous posts that you really don't care for the break shot but I still don't know what your alternative is.

Maniac
03-28-2011, 10:29 AM
Or just go to call pocket 15-ball rotation, using either ball-value scoring or doing it like ten ball. That'd pretty much guarantee both players chances to shoot.

I've suggested this game a few times in past threads and I get a lot of "People want to see the packages put up" comments. Then this OP starts a thread complaining of the "packages" so-to-speak and where are all the comments about "people wanting to see packages put up"??? Go figure.

15-ball rotation would be THE game to play professionally imo. Sure you'd get a B&R occasionally, but not often enough to ruin the ability of BOTH players getting PLENTY of trips to the table. Even a winner breaks format (which many folks favor) would probably see both players shooting in most single games.

Maniac

Nostroke
03-28-2011, 10:30 AM
All those things were true during its heyday when there were 2-3000 poolhalls in Chicago alone.

MikeM
03-28-2011, 10:32 AM
No sport is perfect anyway i can find something wrong with every game, doesnt mean i still wont participate or watch.

HH, we know YOU - and we - will participate and watch. It's everybody else we're trying to capture as an audience.

What Paul and "us all" mean when we say pool is dying or flawed is that there is no "real" professional pool anymore.

What little pro pool is played, gets NO TV air time and little to no commercial sponsorship. There is no appeal to the masses and therefore no $$$ in the game.

I understand Paul's point and I like that he puts so much thought into improving on the game. I disagree that the flaws he describes are fatal however. Pool has plenty of deadly flaws before you even get to the table.

Everyone has their own ideas on how to save pool. I've got mine as well and if they're ever able to be put to the test, I hope Paul is around to help out.

MM

Paul Schofield
03-28-2011, 10:39 AM
Well, how about tennis???



Tennis has their way of creating viable competition. Serving in alternating games works fine.

azbluemach1
03-28-2011, 10:40 AM
Good one. I don't want to go down this path BUT...alternate breaks only gurantees a player breaks, it does not guarantee that he gets to play. He only hopes to play.

This whole thread is non-sense imo. Alternating breaks clearly addresses your "Fatal Flaw", and you dismiss it out of hand.

Alternating breaks guarantees both players the same starting position. The player who can break and run or break and safe wins. In golf, both players are given a tee box from which to hit out of, and what they do with that opportunity is up to them.

Alternating breaks should be the standard in pro tournament pool imo. Gambling is completely different since you can adjust.

/thread

Wags
03-28-2011, 10:43 AM
If you think it's so flawed, the answer is simple. Don't play. I on the other hand, love it because of it's "flaws" I love that you can close out a game or a match with out your opponent ever shooting.

I think that's a bit harsh. The OP is presenting an opinion of what he sees as a problem with the game in gaining acceptance and popularity. He is doing this because despite the flaws he is "hooked" just like you and me.

At the same time....I agree. Only one thing is better than seeing a player on the hill gaff a match winning shot and the opponent, down by 2 or 3 games, not let him get back to the table. The one thing better is if you are the one closing it out. :D

Paul Schofield
03-28-2011, 10:49 AM
Alternating breaks clearly addresses your "Fatal Flaw", and you dismiss it out of hand.


/thread

It is not the fix. This thread is about the evolution of pool because of the "FATAL FLAW". Ten-Ball (with tiny pockets) does not lead us to the promised land. Everyone needs to ask themselves how we got here.

I am a room owner and frankly, I can't do anything with where pool is going (tight pockets, rotation games).

supergreenman
03-28-2011, 10:54 AM
I think that's a bit harsh. The OP is presenting an opinion of what he sees as a problem with the game in gaining acceptance and popularity. He is doing this because despite the flaws he is "hooked" just like you and me.

At the same time....I agree. Only one thing is better than seeing a player on the hill gaff a match winning shot and the opponent, down by 2 or 3 games, not let him get back to the table. The one thing better is if you are the one closing it out. :D

Forgive me for sounding harsh.... I just feel that trying to find faults or complaining about "the state of pool" are self defeating.

Currently, more people play the game than in any time in history.

Yes pool halls are on the decline, it's hard to make the amount of space you need for a traditional hall pay for itself on table time alone these days, yet here are halls out there that are not only surviving, but thriving.

Yes there is a decline in professional pool in North America, this is not the case in asia.

Time to stop looking for faults and start looking for solutions or shut up.

This is of course just my opinion and opinions are a dime a dozen. Based on todays currancey rates that makes my opinion worth about 1/10th of a cent more than all you south of the border. :P

nancewayne
03-28-2011, 11:05 AM
The general population (that likes watching sports) wants action! The ahead, then behind, changes of the lead in NASCAR racing is an example (of course, many LIKE the wrecks that change the positions quickly).

The best pool game for frequent lead changes is 1-pocket. The players generally only shoot one or two shots until giving up the table to the opponent. THAT creates action AND drama! (it's a little like a chess match, except much faster).
I.M.O.

cigardave
03-28-2011, 11:22 AM
My solution is... let's change the game to SHARKING ALLOWED.

Opponents can talk up a storm while their opponent shoots, thereby potentially affecting the outcome of the game. They would have to stay in their seat and be reasonably still, like today... but they could talk non-stop if they wanted to.

The skill of sharking would be explored and developed to its full extent... sharking would become an art form.

The best shooter combined with the one with highly developed sharking skills would emerge as the top pro in the world.

And guess what?... just maybe, the game could become VERY interesting to the general public that currently does not follow the game at all.

SlickRick_PCS
03-28-2011, 11:46 AM
Forgive me for sounding harsh.... I just feel that trying to find faults or complaining about "the state of pool" are self defeating.

Currently, more people play the game than in any time in history.

Yes pool halls are on the decline, it's hard to make the amount of space you need for a traditional hall pay for itself on table time alone these days, yet here are halls out there that are not only surviving, but thriving.

Yes there is a decline in professional pool in North America, this is not the case in asia.

Time to stop looking for faults and start looking for solutions or shut up.

This is of course just my opinion and opinions are a dime a dozen. Based on todays currancey rates that makes my opinion worth about 1/10th of a cent more than all you south of the border. :P

You seem so big there, Green man; why don't you come up with something to make the US pool scene better? I like the way Paul is actually coming with his point of view. You seem to just take a huge dung on it. Propose your solution and I will have my respect for you. For now: I lost respect on you.

slyfox
03-28-2011, 11:50 AM
"Fatal Flaw" to Fatal Flaw.....

Your ideas about no defensive interaction is not the issue I think you are trying to get at. In basketball, if someone straight up breaks your ankles and dunks in your face... you just got dominated. In golf, if a player goes off and shoots 59 4 days in a row.... you got dominated. No matter whether you can be defensive toward them or not.... you lost.

Sometimes you just have to face the fact that sometimes the opponent just plays insane. It's happened to me many times and I know it will again.

I enjoy pool as is. And I believe there are enough people who will always enjoy pool to keep it going.
If it changes, it changes... but I feel there is enough support to continue on.

Interesting insights.....

youngstownkid
03-28-2011, 12:06 PM
It is not the fix. This thread is about the evolution of pool because of the "FATAL FLAW". Ten-Ball (with tiny pockets) does not lead us to the promised land. Everyone needs to ask themselves how we got here.

I am a room owner and frankly, I can't do anything with where pool is going.

Paul, are you saying your business is suffering, or are you just referring to how the professional pool scene is suffering?

PUTT4DACA$$H
03-28-2011, 12:28 PM
I understand your concept of the ff, although I don't neccessarily agree that its the cause for pool being in the dumps.

THE FUTURE OF POOL IS WITH THE KIDS AND YOUTH, AND UNTIL YOU CAN COME UP WITH A GAME THAT CAN COMPETE WITH PS3 AND ALL OF THE COMPUTER GENERATED GAMING THEY PLAY, POOL WILL ALWAYS SUFFER.

I think we need to start getting the kids involved more instead of trying to tweak the game from the top-down.

After school programs or a pool club at junior high schools, then they can start getting exposure to a pool table at an earlier age. Alot of people in America don't get any exposure to pool until after they turn 18 years old or even 21, way too late.

Maybe pool in the future you will wear somekind of "fighter pilot helmet" with 3d graphics on the visor display showing you possible shots and the path to the run-out!!!!

PS

In Amateur pool your opponent almost always gets a turn at the table. its only pool at its highest level thats not "equal-offense"

JMO
Gordon Graham
Las Vegas

12squared
03-28-2011, 12:30 PM
A fix:

I believe I have read that Buddy Hall has suggested loser breaks as his preferred way to play 9-ball so let's start there. (if I'm wrong, I'm sure I'll be corrected :) ).

Racking is always an issue so lets have them rack their own, but incorporate the rule Earl & Shane played to it: you have to make the 9/10-ball last. In other words, making the 9 on the break or because of a combination or luck, it gets respotted and the player continues shooting.

I do not like the call shot rules because they take away the 2 way shot and all the creativity that incorporates.

So here' my suggestion:

1) loser breaks
2) rack your own (still have to make a ball on the break to continue shooting)
3) have to make the money ball last to win, but you continue shooting
4) all other current rules apply (3 foul; pushout only after the break; etc.)

Outside of equal offense, this seems to be the fairest & should allow for both players to get to the table and allow for maximum creativity, what they do with their opportunities is up to them and the pool gods.

Dave

Paul Schofield
03-28-2011, 12:36 PM
In basketball, if someone straight up breaks your ankles and dunks in your face... you just got dominated. In golf, if a player goes off and shoots 59 4 days in a row.... you got dominated. No matter whether you can be defensive toward them or not.... you lost.

Sometimes you just have to face the fact that sometimes the opponent just plays insane. It's happened to me many times and I know it will again.




The scenarios you describe above in basketball and golf are just fine. The opponents got to play the same amount and got crushed. That is OK. We have decided just the opposite. When pool players crush one another we go out and look to make the game harder by inventing a new game, making more difficult rules, tightening up pockets, adding another ball to a rotation game. I ask the question again. How did we get to Ten-Ball anyway?

Someone please name for me a succesfull sport that has seen the game used to represent their sport change over the years the way ours has.

cigardave
03-28-2011, 01:00 PM
Someone please name for me a successful sport that has seen the game used to represent their sport change over the years the way ours has.
That would be professional football... the NFL.

They change the rules REGULARLY... like every year there's several changes made.

By comparison, the rules of pocket billiards are stable.

Paul Schofield
03-28-2011, 01:11 PM
A fix:

I believe I have read that Buddy Hall has suggested loser breaks as his preferred way to play 9-ball so let's start there. (if I'm wrong, I'm sure I'll be corrected :) ).

Racking is always an issue so lets have them rack their own, but incorporate the rule Earl & Shane played to it: you have to make the 9/10-ball last. In other words, making the 9 on the break or because of a combination or luck, it gets respotted and the player continues shooting.

I do not like the call shot rules because they take away the 2 way shot and all the creativity that incorporates.

So here' my suggestion:

1) loser breaks
2) rack your own (still have to make a ball on the break to continue shooting)
3) have to make the money ball last to win, but you continue shooting
4) all other current rules apply (3 foul; pushout only after the break; etc.)

Outside of equal offense, this seems to be the fairest & should allow for both players to get to the table and allow for maximum creativity, what they do with their opportunities is up to them and the pool gods.

Dave

This post is excellent. Here is the problem. A first timer golfer tees off, knocks the ball down the fairway, and putts the ball in the hole...just like a Pro would! A first time bowler plays the same game as a Pro as in all other successful sports. I can't introduce a player to pool through Nine-Ball. It is just too hard. Nine-Ball is too difficult for 95% of the players and almost an equal amount can never understand it. It should be our industries goal to have one representative game that has broad based appeal for everyone from novice to Pro. If this ever happens, we are on our way.

In order for this to ever happen, pool must come to terms with its "FATAL FLAW".

supergreenman
03-28-2011, 01:11 PM
You seem so big there, Green man; why don't you come up with something to make the US pool scene better? I like the way Paul is actually coming with his point of view. You seem to just take a huge dung on it. Propose your solution and I will have my respect for you. For now: I lost respect on you.

Here's the thing. I'm not the one whining and crying about what's wrong with pool or what the fatal flaw of pool is. As such I don't believe it's up to me to find a solution to something I don't see as a problem.

I say things the way I see them, if that loses your respect, then so be it, I make no apologies.

I feel that if there's a market for professional pool someone will exploit it, if not then I guess it wasn't such a good idea. Will the loss of a professional tour hurt the game? NO!

Most people that play the game are barely aware of such a thing as a professional pool player. Ask a league player in your area to name five professional pool players that are currently active. Chances are they won't be able to name two.

Pool is just fine as a sport, people will continue to play it and have fun doing so.

If you want to make a living with pool, cheers and good on ya, but I suggest you don't do it by playing the game. There's only a small pot of money and already too many people in line to get thier piece.

DogsPlayingPool
03-28-2011, 01:27 PM
But the difference is that all players get their chance to shoot. I think that's the most important point Paul is trying to make.

Roger

Roger, I understand it but as I said before, with the exception of a straight pool bracket tournament (no round robin) at the expert level, how often does this really happen? The idea that in pool one player can win without the other ever getting a chance is theoretical, not how it happens practically. I've been to enough professional tournaments to know that in any match race to 7-9 or whatever, both players get their chances. One may control the match but it isn't because the other player never had chances; he just wasn't able to produce like is opponent. If you add alternate break to the format, then the point isn't even theoretical any more - both players get chances.

strokerace
03-28-2011, 01:28 PM
the answer is what i thought of years ago..i saw the problem with benching a player..how do you make it a fairer game..it had to be a combanation of offense and defense..the solution..is as followed..
1)..get rid of all numbered balls..like English 8 ball..7 reds and yellows
2)..elimate the Break all together..just dont need luck involved..
3)..a game that will work on all size tables..
4)..a game with international appeal and acceptance
5)..a game for all skill levels..beggining to advanced
6)..a game that can be handicapped..for league play..
7)..a game that can be bet on..on several levels..
8)..a game that combines all form of offense and defense..every shot
9)..a game that is the most difficult in the world to run out on..even
seasonal professionals could rarely..if ever do it..
10)..played with 2 white cue balls..one red stripe and one yellow stripe..
and 1 black ball..making it easy to understand and very interesting
for the most layman spectator..and the balls are great for TV..

THIS GAME WILL REMOVE "THE FATAL FLAW" FOREVER..GUAREENTEED!!

Paul Schofield
03-28-2011, 01:30 PM
The general population (that likes watching sports) wants action! The ahead, then behind, changes of the lead in NASCAR racing is an example (of course, many LIKE the wrecks that change the positions quickly).

The best pool game for frequent lead changes is 1-pocket. The players generally only shoot one or two shots until giving up the table to the opponent. THAT creates action AND drama! (it's a little like a chess match, except much faster).
I.M.O.

Good one. I agree. I started a thread on this topic last year.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=193774

But as usual, there is a problem. People want to shoot balls in the hole and they get to decide what they want to do. Not us.

inside_english
03-28-2011, 01:46 PM
A player is guaranteed to play 18 holes and putt the ball 18 times into the hole. Golf is very good. Imagine if only one golfer was allowed to play hole after hole until he bogied and then and only then could his opponent play.

It is the preservation of the “FATAL FLAW” that is at the very root of all of pool’s troubles resulting in a seemingly endless evolution and parade of pool games. PROOF: The story of billiards path from straight rail all the way to three-cushion is really a story about the “FATAL FLAW”. It is a story about how a simple and beautiful game that everyone could understand and anyone could play evolved to a game that few can understand and even fewer can play. It is a story of how a game developed into a cult game and essentially became irrelevant in the main stream. Save the “FATAL FLAW”

This is also the story of pocket pool games. The “FATAL FLAW” is preserved while pool makes these giant leaps into new territories. Each and every step, the game becomes more and more difficult, alienating more and more potential players and confused spectators. In an effort to minimize the “FATAL FLAW”, the tiny pocket has emerged. This could very well be the death throes for pocket games. The leap to Ten-Ball parallels Billiards trek to its final resting place (Three Cushion Billiards).
Could you stop typing "fatal flaw" in uppercase? It seems like you're trying to promote a t-shirt or bumper sticker or something.

12squared
03-28-2011, 01:52 PM
This post is excellent. Here is the problem. A first timer golfer tees off, knocks the ball down the fairway, and putts the ball in the hole...just like a Pro would! A first time bowler plays the same game as a Pro as in all other successful sports. I can't introduce a player to pool through Nine-Ball. It is just too hard. Nine-Ball is too difficult for 95% of the players and almost an equal amount can never understand it. It should be our industries goal to have one representative game that has broad based appeal for everyone from novice to Pro. If this ever happens, we are on our way.

In order for this to ever happen, pool must come to terms with its "FATAL FLAW".

Paul,

First, to answer your question about how we got to 10-ball anyway, I think it was to take the break out of the game as much as possible. 9-ball became all about the break and people were whining.

I disagree a little w/your premise about people not relating to pool or rotation games because they can't do it early like in golf or bowling. People can pocket balls and enjoy themselves playing pool as seen by the fact that there are how many home tables, bars & rooms that make a living off of pool as recreation? For the majority of my playing cue sports for the 1st 10 years, I played 3-cushion. You think ‘pool’ has a problem getting the average person interested that could relate to playing like golf or bowling? :D.

I used to say the same things you are saying as the difference between pool & 3-cushion: the average person could make a ball playing pool and get immediate satisfaction by at least seeing balls go into the holes...good luck w/3-cushion :sorry:. Both games take equal expertise to master but it was easier for the average joe/joess to enjoy pool. In fact pool maybe more difficult to master because if you don't pocket a ball you do not shoot again. People can relate to pool & rotation games, plus those games eliminate the endless moments just staring at the balls before deciding what to shoot like in 8-ball. I think that's why 9-ball took off as it did.

My view is that pool is a tough spectator sport, unless you are a player interested in the subtleties in the game, and may never be mainstream. It is best viewed in its entirety, not the way it is chopped up on TV broadcasts (thank you TAR and all the other streamers :thumbup:). It may never have a lot of money in it unless someone or some company with lots of money wants to promote it...but at what gain to them? Pool is a passion and will probably remain so. The best thing we can do is support those that are supporting the game we love. I like that people like you are trying to come up with a better way to get the masses involved, but I don't hear any suggestions from you, only why this and that would not work.

I would hope your posts in the future begin with what you believe to be a solution and let people add to that, to help maybe come up with a solution, instead of leading w/the negative and only finding fault in the posts that are trying to help. I'm just getting tired of reading mostly negative posts about pool's future instead of more positive ways to help.

“Pool is a beautiful game played by ugly people” :)
Dave

Miya Butreaks
03-28-2011, 01:55 PM
Why is the author quoting himself? You're not coining a new term here, just say "The fatal flaw of pool is..." You don't have to repeatedly type "FATAL FLAW".

About the tenth time I read "FATAL FLAW" I decided no matter the content of the thread the torture was not worth it.

That was the "BIGGEST PROBLEM" with this thread. This "BIGGEST PROBLEM" cannot be helped unless people are dissuaded from repeatedly using quotes or I decide to not be a jackass by ceasing to judge the proverbial book by its cover. :D

I'm mostly joking by the way. But seriously... Stop.


Edit - Looks like someone beat me to it.

Paul Schofield
03-28-2011, 01:56 PM
Could you stop typing "fatal flaw" in uppercase? It seems like you're trying to promote a t-shirt or bumper sticker or something.

Are you hinting that it could make a good pool player tee shirt?

Sure...I will back off of it it helps. Alright, now, tell us what you think.

Island Drive
03-28-2011, 02:08 PM
Whats up guys i just joined and there seems to be alot of threads talking about how pool is dying and pool is flawed, yall should just quit if you dont like it i think pool is fine the way it is....

Besides phenolic tips and jump cues they gotta go, im only 21 and i feel like the only one that doesnt use them.



No,
Because without discussions like this new ideas are not brought to light. I'd much rather have feedback from ten people than one or none. We all live our own cranium world and its impossible to process and see matters like others do, some call it evolution, of species or product. NFL has flaws and the keep trying new things some work, others NOT. I'm sure there are people that would say VSU had no chance in the NCAA BB tourney, and that American Idol would never work. .

Maniac
03-28-2011, 02:11 PM
15-ball rotation would be THE game to play professionally imo. Sure you'd get a B&R occasionally, but not often enough to ruin the ability of BOTH players getting PLENTY of trips to the table. Even a winner breaks format (which many folks favor) would probably see both players shooting in most single games.

Maniac

26 posts since this one and NOBODY thinks 15-ball rotation is a viable option?

Maniac

Salty
03-28-2011, 02:17 PM
I might be wrong about this, but I think until recently snooker has been mostly an elitist sport in England-played largely by the pros and higher income folks and no so much by the 'general public'. It has been very popular among spectators, though that may be waning a bit now. Since the 40s or 50s, pool has not enjoyed the status of a big time sport in this country. Will it ever again? I don't know, but I CAN tell you that it is no closer now than it was when I started in the pool hall business in 1990-it's probably farther away. Pool has enjoyed two popularity booms, once following 'The Hustler', and then again following 'The Color of Money'. Neither time were we able to convert the short term popularity into a long term professional sport akin to golf, tennis, or, crap, even beach volleyball! There's probably several reasons. It's a very difficult game, taking years of dedication to become proficient and that's not good for the 'want it now' generation. The games we play may not be interesting enough for the general population. The image is still dark after all these years, and although we always thought the gambling was a huge negative, the recent poker boom kind of shoots that down doesn't it? All of those things, in my opinion, do not detract from the greatness of pool. Chess, for non or casual players, is hard to understand, difficult to learn, boring to watch, will absolutely never enjoy widespread popularity as a spectator sport-and is one of the GREAT games ever created by mankind. Widespread popularity is rarely the measure of greatness. 'McDonalds' and 'American Idol' are good examples of that. It would be nice if pool could achieve a level in this country where our pro players could make the living they deserve as the best in a sport as widely played as ours. I'm not sure if I will ever see that. As for me? I spent the first 20 years in the pool hall business trying to convince the crowd who didn't want to play pool why they SHOULD want to play. I'm through with that. I hope to spend the next 20 creating an environment and opportunities for those who DO want to play this great sport.

It's not realy like that. It wasn't an elitist sport like you said. They do have a strict dresscode and you won't see any serious misbehaviour (sharking) from players. Even in the lower leagues they take this verry serious. In the mid 1980's we got BBC television on the cable in continental Europe and snooker became instantly popular here on the mainland. People of all ages were sitting in front of the tv to watch guy's like Steve davis, Jimmy White, Tony Drago. Snooker has a strong global structure and a solid foundation unlike in pool with different organisations. I think that's what pool needs to atract serious sponsors who can offer serious monney for our profesional players. And I know some people here will jump on me but really... some pro's who allways complain about not getting what they deserve should first act like a profesional. But that's only my opinion.

Paul Schofield
03-28-2011, 02:19 PM
Dave - Thanks for the comments. As I posted earlier, I think pool has evolved much like billiards. How did billiards get from straight rail to three cushion? Paul

Runnintable
03-28-2011, 02:25 PM
How bout every time you scratch you lose a finger!

Zbotiman
03-28-2011, 02:35 PM
I've read all of this and have yet to hear the possible solution. The prevailing impression, infers, that the solution to the dreaded, FATAL FLAW, won't be a simple thing to incorporate into the sport of pocket billiards.

Have you ever thought about how many different complex problems, there are, to learning all the many different mental and physical challenges that are presented in learning pocket billiards? First, you gotta learn, "stroke," that alone takes years and you still refine it! Any of the games are complex to master and that's mostly in the mentally challenging aspects of learning them. Then you've got to play enough to be able to execute what you think up. Just those things alone mean this sport is way, too, difficult, for the public to EVER grasp!

Seen in it's proper light, the fight aspect to the sport of poo,l is the most useful, and interesting element for garnering mass appeal. You can forget the general populous, "EVER," getting the refined aspects of this sports many different games! You can pretty much forget about the amateurs understanding the refined aspects of a possessing a great stroke, can't see it, can't do it! If the ball bangers don't even get it, WTF???

Poll is what it is, a great challenge, that goes on till ya-quit!

Good luck with describing the fatal flaw and all, can't wait to hear about the miracle cure!

MikeM
03-28-2011, 02:44 PM
No,
Because without discussions like this new ideas are not brought to light. I'd much rather have feedback from ten people than one or none. We all live our own cranium world and its impossible to process and see matters like others do, some call it evolution, of species or product. NFL has flaws and the keep trying new things some work, others NOT. I'm sure there are people that would say VSU had no chance in the NCAA BB tourney, and that American Idol would never work. .

V ESS U? seriously?!? My alma mater makes it to the Final Four and STILL gets no respect!!:angry: ;)

THAT is why pool is dying!!! :embarrassed2:

Island Drive
03-28-2011, 03:06 PM
Public's perception of our game in the US is the FLAW you speak of. If it was truly flawed the Philippine people would not of embraced Efren as their Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods. Efren in his country is more famous than Manny Pacquiao. Yep these issues you brought up are good ones, but until we can lead em to water and make em drink the beauty of our game, its samo/samo, I feel your disgust with the current situation (I was a room owner). Hopefully sometime this year one of my contacts will ''see'' what the WBT can do for the game world wide. I've found the way too create that thirst.
BiL

12squared
03-28-2011, 03:13 PM
Dave - Thanks for the comments. As I posted earlier, I think pool has evolved much like billiards. How did billiards get from straight rail to three cushion? Paul

I'm not a historian on 3-cushion, I just used to play. But I do know that balkline was invented because it was too boring to watch 1,000s run in straight rail being nursed around the rails. Yes, they changed the rules. But this is not the case in pool/rotation pool. It is great to watch a player string racks together.

My point was that it seems like you feel you have a solution but for some reason you are not sharing it with us, is that accurate?

Dave

12squared
03-28-2011, 03:14 PM
Public's perception of our game in the US is the FLAW you speak of. If it was truly flawed the Philippine people would not of embraced Efren as their Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods. Efren in his country is more famous than Manny Pacquiao. Yep these issues you brought up are good ones, but until we can lead em to water and make em drink the beauty of our game, its samo/samo, I feel your disgust with the current situation (I was a room owner). Hopefully sometime this year one of my contacts will ''see'' what the WBT can do for the game world wide. I've found the way too create that thirst.
BiL

tap, tap, Bill! rep to you.

Dave

Klopek
03-28-2011, 03:22 PM
0000000000

Paul Schofield
03-28-2011, 04:35 PM
I have a hundred stories like this but I will only tell the most recent.

A few weeks ago the Valley League had their state tournament in my town and about 2000 players participated. At any one time, somewhere between 20 and 80 players from the tournament would be in my place. I decided I would run the Accu-Stats PPV all weekend of the Ten-Ball Tournament from Virginia. They all knew it was on. Many asked what was going on. Not one player watched it for more than a minute. It was like having a chess tournament on TV in a room full of checkers players. I could certainly use some help from the pros and in turn I would like to do for them. This program they have going with rotation games does not work in the grand scheme of things.

My point here is that pool (rotation games) has evolved itself into irrelevance. We have got to do better than this.

I want to add here that the video quality and the commentating was superb and my regulars did enjoy the PPV.

Roger Long
03-28-2011, 05:57 PM
My solution is... let's change the game to SHARKING ALLOWED.

Opponents can talk up a storm while their opponent shoots, thereby potentially affecting the outcome of the game. They would have to stay in their seat and be reasonably still, like today... but they could talk non-stop if they wanted to.

The skill of sharking would be explored and developed to its full extent... sharking would become an art form.

The best shooter combined with the one with highly developed sharking skills would emerge as the top pro in the world.

And guess what?... just maybe, the game could become VERY interesting to the general public that currently does not follow the game at all.

You just might have a point there, Dave. It has been working well in every bar in the nation for years. :thumbup:

SlickRick_PCS
03-28-2011, 06:14 PM
Here's the thing. I'm not the one whining and crying about what's wrong with pool or what the fatal flaw of pool is. As such I don't believe it's up to me to find a solution to something I don't see as a problem.

I say things the way I see them, if that loses your respect, then so be it, I make no apologies.

I feel that if there's a market for professional pool someone will exploit it, if not then I guess it wasn't such a good idea. Will the loss of a professional tour hurt the game? NO!

Most people that play the game are barely aware of such a thing as a professional pool player. Ask a league player in your area to name five professional pool players that are currently active. Chances are they won't be able to name two.

Pool is just fine as a sport, people will continue to play it and have fun doing so.

If you want to make a living with pool, cheers and good on ya, but I suggest you don't do it by playing the game. There's only a small pot of money and already too many people in line to get thier piece.

This post is a FAIL: You don't know me and should be left as is.

Yea, I like the fact that you "like things the way they are". I have always been told that if you are not really careful, the "Good Enoughs" can become the enemy of "The Best". You, sir, just want things to be good enough. You just thrive on seeing things to be half-assed. I can only assume that your life leads the way you comment. Good luck with that, because I believe there needs to be a change for the better (or THE BEST, as I should say :cool:).

UGETTHE6
03-28-2011, 06:16 PM
It’s all MONEY... Someone said to me the other day if the top player was making 20 Million a year in pool, then all the current players would be sleeping on the street. I think its true. Because it is a sport, and the real athletes play golf, baseball or other major sports so they get PAID. If they played pool, the REAL athletes would dominate, not the fat asses, gamblers, hustlers, and drug addicts.

If pool had a huge payout, then the real athletes would pick up cues and figure it out. It’s all simple, shoot, make ball, and shoot again. Endurance is key, so we play races to 35 in tournaments, have 16 entrants, and 5 million top prizes.

But to EARN a spot you have to play qualifiers.

If pool did this, and had money, it would work. But it doesn’t everything is ran by f**cking amateurs, even Allen Hopkins event, VERY AMATEURISH, the US Open, Berry's event, EXTREAMLY AMATEURISH. All things pool is ran by idiots, with no education, who have "played" pool their whole life.

Seminole Tribe is running some CLASSY events, with some heart, and business MIND. No one else in this country is. NO ONE!

And I have never played in a Seminole event....

Look the whole IDIOT pool world allowed KT and the IPT come to town, and guess what he screwed them all over too! Because they were too dumb to realize what the hell was going on. He ran professional shi*. He wasn't dumb, but just a crook! If the pool world was SMARTER this would have never happend.

This game needs someone outside the GAME to run shit, these amateurs running stuff is just stupid anymore. All of they do is keep the same amount of money in pool, and they all keep matching each other’s money back! It’s a redundant cycle, and it will never end, because these POOLIDIOTS continue to let amateurs run the show. AND ALL OF YOU LIKE IT, AND SUPPORT IT, AND THINK ITS GREAT. Talk about the US Open, and THE SBE like its GRAND. ITS A SHIT SHOW, where 1 person get's rich, and a few other people make MY months salary; working a REAL job.

Problem is people in the pool world are LAZY and want a quick fix, and an easy pay day, bunch of lock artists. You get people who are promoting today, because they CANT compete anymore, and they found a way to make money off the PLAYERS. No matter how much they "cry" they are for the players they are full of shit, they are for making MONEY.

THAT’S THE FATAL FLAW!

NOW, If you DON'T agree with my comments, then GO back and READ IT AGAIN, beucase you definately missed something.

bradsh98
03-28-2011, 06:32 PM
Here is the “FATAL FLAW”: A player is entitled to play on offence and score without limit while an opponent sits idly without influence.

So why don't we make up a new rule that states: If a player feels that his opponent has been at the table for too long a period of time, that player may punch his opponent in the face, and begin his turn at the table.


Everyone has these crazy ideas of what is wrong with pool.

You know what's really wrong with pool?? Technology! The more technology advances, the lazier people get. Video games, cell phones, 70" televisions, computers, internet... It all contributes to the demise of our existence. Many people would like to believe that we are making great advancements, though I believe we are taking steps in the wrong direction. How many people do you know that DON'T have a cell phone?
Technology affects everything, even how people raise their children. Many people are inconvenienced by taking the time necessary to raise their own children, because they are too preoccupied with things like phone apps and facebook. Sounds silly doesn't it? Welcome to the 21st century.

Though, if you'd really like to insist that there is something wrong with pool, consider this: There have been many changes in recent history that have led to the demise of pool. Think about where many people begin playing the game: in bars.

The legal age to drink in the US was changed from 18 to 21. This delays a large group of people from getting exposure to the game. A lot can happen in a person's life in those 3 years, and by the time they gain exposure to pool, they may not have the same interest that they would have had 3 years prior...

DWI laws have changed all over the country. Many people don't even go out to bars anymore from fear of getting pulled over on the way home. I've heard stories from years ago, people getting pulled over and the cop offering them a ride home. Nowadays, you don't get that kind of slack.

Ball in hand rules have totally changed the way the game is played. I know many former league players that quit playing in leagues when ball in hand rules were introduced, calling it 'shit pool'. Now, I believe these people are incredibly naive to think that, though everyone is entitled to his own opinion, and if that is all it took to drive these people away from the game, then so be it...

justnum
03-28-2011, 06:39 PM
The Fatal Flaw is there aren't enough groupies, spongers, dealers or all around hangers on in the pool community. The players and the people in attendance are far too responsible.

What pool needs are some drug scandals, sex scandals, corruption scandals, refs giving bad calls for bribes, refs giving out bad racks, organizers giving out special tournament match-ups for friends, organizers hiring fans to "help friends out" and some good ole fashion discrimination whether it be for race, gender, sexual orientation or even hair color. Anything to make people think twice about joining the pool community, that is a flaw it is too much:

"I just want to play pool."

"I just want to promote and help you make money."

"I am trying to make a difference and spend my own money to "get the word out there" because I love the sport so so much."

Pool needs people that are just "I am doing this to make money and I don't care who has to suffer for me to do that because in the long run I will be around and you can be replaced."

Zbotiman
03-28-2011, 07:03 PM
I have a hundred stories like this but I will only tell the most recent.

A few weeks ago the Valley League had their state tournament in my town and about 2000 players participated. At any one time, somewhere between 20 and 80 players from the tournament would be in my place. I decided I would run the Accu-Stats PPV all weekend of the Ten-Ball Tournament from Virginia. They all knew it was on. Many asked what was going on. Not one player watched it for more than a minute. It was like having a chess tournament on TV in a room full of checkers players. I could certainly use some help from the pros and in turn I would like to do for them. This program they have going with rotation games does not work in the grand scheme of things.

My point here is that pool (rotation games) has evolved itself into irrelevance. We have got to do better than this.

I want to add here that the video quality and the commentating was superb and my regulars did enjoy the PPV.

Much Thanks, from "All the Accu-Stats Team!"
Believe me when I say, "Your support is greatly appreciated!" And more than the public can know, especially with the Masters 10-ball event, it was constant expense, work, and effort.
The new equipment will be even better in the coming months, also, there's much to come, from the new look and programming of Accu-Stats.
All that can be done to present the sincere face of Pro-Pool as it really is, well, it's there for posterity to evaluate. Everyone that contributes to a PPV has helped to preserve and better, the sport of Pool, in some small way!
Thanks, for your part in that!;)

Firecracker
03-28-2011, 08:27 PM
Hi Paul,

In Dallas, there is a new league that was created and formed by one of the guys behind OB Cues called Pool-300. It combines rotation with straight pool and allows each player chances at the table to see who can win the round. Each player racks the balls the same way, gets the same chance to break, then take their turn at the table to try and run out. It is scored like bowling and each player gets 3 innings in a round to try and make the best score with their handicap. For me, as a more advanced player, it really helps with the my focus and patterns. Against the lower ranked players, I have to play to my level each time I step up to the table to win, if I slack off at all, I lose. It's very easy to handicap and the handicap is very true to the player, as it continually adjusts each time they play a match. Check out their website and let me know what you think - www.pool300.com

Tara

Paul Schofield
03-28-2011, 08:58 PM
Hi Paul,

In Dallas, there is a new league that was created and formed by one of the guys behind OB Cues called Pool-300. It combines rotation with straight pool and allows each player chances at the table to see who can win the round. Each player racks the balls the same way, gets the same chance to break, then take their turn at the table to try and run out. It is scored like bowling and each player gets 3 innings in a round to try and make the best score with their handicap. For me, as a more advanced player, it really helps with the my focus and patterns. Against the lower ranked players, I have to play to my level each time I step up to the table to win, if I slack off at all, I lose. It's very easy to handicap and the handicap is very true to the player, as it continually adjusts each time they play a match. Check out their website and let me know what you think - www.pool300.com

Tara

Thanks Tara. Don sent me a PM today about the league. I will be sure to hit the website. How long has the league been in existence? Paul

DogsPlayingPool
03-28-2011, 09:05 PM
Hi Paul,

In Dallas, there is a new league that was created and formed by one of the guys behind OB Cues called Pool-300. It combines rotation with straight pool and allows each player chances at the table to see who can win the round. Each player racks the balls the same way, gets the same chance to break, then take their turn at the table to try and run out. It is scored like bowling and each player gets 3 innings in a round to try and make the best score with their handicap. For me, as a more advanced player, it really helps with the my focus and patterns. Against the lower ranked players, I have to play to my level each time I step up to the table to win, if I slack off at all, I lose. It's very easy to handicap and the handicap is very true to the player, as it continually adjusts each time they play a match. Check out their website and let me know what you think - www.pool300.com


Tara


So is a perfect score 90?

bigwillo
03-28-2011, 09:25 PM
golf and bowling do not play defense, but they give the exact same opportunity to all players. 18 holes, 10 frames, ets. you can't lose without getting to play. That is why i love Pool300/ check it out www.pool300.com

bigwillo
03-28-2011, 10:18 PM
As it is played in league now, 90 is a perfect score, but you can play it as a 10 frame and then 300 would be. I personally would like to play a singles league of Pool300 and play 10 frames. We don't in teams because of the time constraints.

Paul Schofield
03-28-2011, 11:26 PM
Paul, are you saying your business is suffering, or are you just referring to how the professional pool scene is suffering?

Thanks for voicing in. I did not say anyone was suffering. I am saying that there is nothing that the pro scene does that is useful or connected to local billiard rooms. This is an awful shame.

Paul Schofield
03-29-2011, 12:00 AM
I was there. Straight Pool was king in the 60s. Why did it fall out of grace. Why did Straight Pool die?

12squared
03-29-2011, 03:19 AM
Speaking of new league formats, check this one out that Melissa Little created: http://www.15rack.com/15rack/Home.html. 15 innings/racks of the 10 ball ghost basically that is hadicapped based on score sheets.

tiger37373
03-29-2011, 03:40 AM
I hardly remember when "equal offense" was invented. Hot for a while, and then died off completely, due to lack of interest.

This is the very reason why I like playing 3-cushion so much. You can play against the world champion, and still get to shoot. You might miss, but at least you got to go to the table and try.

Captain K.
03-29-2011, 04:07 AM
I am saying that every effort should be made to guarantee opportunities at the table. The more often both players can be brought back to the table in a way that makes sense, the more viable and entertaining the competition will be. This will also mean that matches will be much closer and the better player will actually win more often. This makes the game more palatable to everyone.

I am saying that there is not enough back and forth and no, I do not think that players get their chances. This is why we keep jumping to new games.

One pocket, alot of back in forth

Firecracker
03-29-2011, 06:06 AM
So is a perfect score 90?

Yes, a perfect 3 rounds scores a 90, but it is very difficult to obtain. Only one player in the league has done it. I have been in the 60s several times, but can't seem to get over that and for the first half of the season, had one of the lowest handicaps in the league.

Firecracker
03-29-2011, 06:09 AM
Thanks Tara. Don sent me a PM today about the league. I will be sure to hit the website. How long has the league been in existence? Paul

I have been playing for the last year. Before they opened it up to local players, they ran several test runs to ensure the handicaps, scoring, and format works for the majority of players.

youngstownkid
03-29-2011, 06:41 AM
it might not be about changing the rules one more time, but changing the image. maybe even changing the way we run tournaments, for example:

The idea of having a qualifier was mentioned earlier. I do feel that having more qualifiers would be a good thing for pool tournaments because it would increase the prize pool.

The APA has a qualifier for their US Amateur Championship, but it is a special format that does not really apply to lesser players, and doesn't pay anything out. In fact, if you qualify for the National Championship, you have to PAY extra money to go. I believe it's $60 if you qualify.

If there was a 8 ball qualifier that was (1) cheap, and (2) handicapped, and it was organized all over the country to have round upon round of qualifiers, it was really add up and end up being a tournament that would pay out well, and since the better handicapped local league 8 ballers would feel they can compete, they'd have a chance and get involved in the qualifiers, which would bulk up the prize pool.

If the US Open opened itself up and had qualifiers all over the country, like in golf for example, then instead of having an elitist field of ppl who are backed for the $500 entry fee, then we might have (1) a ton more players, (2) a lot more money, (3) some TV coverage (since the $ would be there to make it interesting)

as a side note:
Paul, at your place, do you have any tournaments for your league members? Maybe you could have weekly qualifiers for them, then have a seasonal 8 ball tournament that are only for league players who qualify...this wouldn't translate into interest toward the 9 ball tourney you having playing on the tube, but would probably be good business to make your league players happy that you are running tournaments for them.

just a thought

Scott Lee
03-29-2011, 07:46 AM
Mark...FYI, anybody can run a qualifier for the U.S. Open 9ball. All they have to do is organize and run it. You don't really expect Barry to set up and run qualifiers, all over the country, do you (although he does so at QMasters)?

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com


If the US Open opened itself up and had qualifiers all over the country, like in golf for example, then instead of having an elitist field of ppl who are backed for the $500 entry fee, then we might have (1) a ton more players, (2) a lot more money, (3) some TV coverage (since the $ would be there to make it interesting)

youngstownkid
03-29-2011, 08:43 AM
First of all it was just a suggestion, I don't expect anything, but...

In order for it to be successfull, it would have to be an organized effort that goes all the way up, so yes, Barry or somebody on his behalf would have to set up the template for the qualifier, and provide incentives for room owners to do it, a timeline for when they should be run and have results returned, etc. (6 months ago I jotted down a system I thought would make sense, but then just pitched it, I could prob recreate it and post it if you thought it was worthwhile)

If Barry were to just say, hey room owners, would anyone be interested in doing this for me, they would likely collectively ignore him. Also, if there were any room owners who would set up a qualifier, they would certainly pocket any extra cash over the $500 entry (or give some to the qualifying person for travel), not send it to Barry to increase the size of the prize pool, right?

Paul Schofield
03-29-2011, 09:05 AM
Thanks for voicing in. I did not say anyone was suffering. I am saying that there is nothing that the pro scene does that is useful or connected to local billiard rooms. This is an awful shame.

I don't think I am being clear. I am saying that game structure and equipment for the pros is disconnected from what a pool room does (or should be doing). This makes the pros worthless to us and us poolrooms worthless to the pros.

Wags
03-29-2011, 09:32 AM
I don't think I am being clear. I am saying that game structure and equipment for the pros is disconnected from what a pool room does (or should be doing). This makes the pros worthless to us and us poolrooms worthless to the pros.

That statement should say alot to anyone doing pro events. Just where do you think the players come from. There is a disconnect in the game. There is a disconnect in the equipment. There is a disconnect with the atitude.

RO's can't control the game most customers play, yet I bet most customers play 8-ball. RO's are at the base level with the players. Yet, promoters/TDs don't listen to what they are saying and continue on the path to failure. There is a reason amateur 8-ball events draw big crowds. There is a connection between the game and the players. There is a reason that the Valley International Junior tournament draws big crowds playing 8-ball on a bar table and the BEF is relatively small playing 9-ball on a 9 footer.

The pro games of 9-ball, 10-ball, one-pocket are a disconnect from the mainstream. Worse yet, it is played on equipment that few RO's would even have in their room. It just wouldn't get played on.

Paul is correct. Except for a very small percentage of customers, the pros and the shows they put on are worthless to the room and their customers.

justnum
03-29-2011, 09:37 AM
That statement should say alot to anyone doing pro events. Just where do you think the players come from. There is a disconnect in the game. There is a disconnect in the equipment. There is a disconnect with the atitude.

RO's can't control the game most customers play, yet I bet most customers play 8-ball. RO's are at the base level with the players. Yet, promoters/TDs don't listen to what they are saying and continue on the path to failure. There is a reason amateur 8-ball events draw big crowds. There is a connection between the game and the players. There is a reason that the Valley International Junior tournament draws big crowds playing 8-ball on a bar table and the BEF is relatively small playing 9-ball on a 9 footer.

The pro games of 9-ball, 10-ball, one-pocket are a disconnect from the mainstream. Worse yet, it is played on equipment that few RO's would even have in their room. It just wouldn't get played on.

Paul is correct. Except for a very small percentage of customers, the pros and the shows they put on are worthless to the room and their customers.

There is a high factor of "can I hit him with a pie in the face factor"

The room drinkers are the best supply of noise and usually the best paying customers. Why not make money off of it for both players and room owners?

Call it the best pool shark sharker. I bet Earl would get huge lines of people that want to shark him and will pay for a chance to do that.

Wags
03-29-2011, 09:58 AM
There is a high factor of "can I hit him with a pie in the face factor"

The room drinkers are the best supply of noise and usually the best paying customers. Why not make money off of it for both players and room owners?

Call it the best pool shark sharker. I bet Earl would get huge lines of people that want to shark him and will pay for a chance to do that.

I used to think that I was pretty good at sharking, but. when Earl pulled out the magniying glass AND had back-up noise reduces, WOW. Those moves won't be topped or a long while. I will assume my apprentice role to the great Earl. :D

justnum
03-29-2011, 10:04 AM
I used to think that I was pretty good at sharking, but. when Earl pulled out the magniying glass AND had back-up noise reduces, WOW. Those moves won't be topped or a long while. I will assume my apprentice role to the great Earl. :D

Try to get out more at a typical sports stadium event, people have glo sticks, ribbons, near topless women, blow horns, fog horns, posters all types of visual and auditory techniques.

The best one I've seen so far is reciting the minutes of a Congressional meeting, it can put people to sleep or drive them crazy.

justadub
03-29-2011, 10:07 AM
That statement should say alot to anyone doing pro events. Just where do you think the players come from. There is a disconnect in the game. There is a disconnect in the equipment. There is a disconnect with the atitude.

RO's can't control the game most customers play, yet I bet most customers play 8-ball. RO's are at the base level with the players. Yet, promoters/TDs don't listen to what they are saying and continue on the path to failure. There is a reason amateur 8-ball events draw big crowds. There is a connection between the game and the players. There is a reason that the Valley International Junior tournament draws big crowds playing 8-ball on a bar table and the BEF is relatively small playing 9-ball on a 9 footer.

The pro games of 9-ball, 10-ball, one-pocket are a disconnect from the mainstream. Worse yet, it is played on equipment that few RO's would even have in their room. It just wouldn't get played on.

Paul is correct. Except for a very small percentage of customers, the pros and the shows they put on are worthless to the room and their customers.

I follow your thought process here. Especially regarding 8-ball. It clearly is the most popular game in my part of the world.

I wonder about the 8-footer vs the 9-footer factor though. All we have here locally is 9-footers, with a few exceptions. And in the one room that has both 8's and 9's, whenever the 9's open up, whoever is playing on an 8' moves over immediately. Happened just this past Sunday evening, a couple of times. And we're talking bangers and league players here.

Maybe it's because it's all most anyone here knows, but I personally FAR prefer playing on a 9-footer. And I certainly am just a league-playing banger.

whitewolf
03-29-2011, 10:09 AM
I like the Fatal Flaw. Miserack was in a money match (can't remember name) and Steve ran 13 racks in a row. His opponent then said, let's double the bet.

It don't get any better than that! Nothing like having your opponent sitting his butt in a chair while you just keep shooting and shooting and shooting and taking his money.

My friend, think your analysis has a 'Fatal Flaw' - it doesn't consider the gambling aspect of pool - and what other fracking sport has the gambling piece? Ask the gamblers if they care what the crowd thinks.

supergreenman
03-29-2011, 10:10 AM
This post is a FAIL: You don't know me and should be left as is.

Yea, I like the fact that you "like things the way they are". I have always been told that if you are not really careful, the "Good Enoughs" can become the enemy of "The Best". You, sir, just want things to be good enough. You just thrive on seeing things to be half-assed. I can only assume that your life leads the way you comment. Good luck with that, because I believe there needs to be a change for the better (or THE BEST, as I should say :cool:).

Who the hell are you to judge me or my posts? You clearly don't have a handle on what I'm trying to say.

Just because Pro-pool doesn't have a higher profile in the publics mind doesn't mean the game is flawed.

People play pool to be competative, maybe even the best (as you so inaccurately pointed out). It doesn't matter that the only people that are watching are other pool players.

If you think that's a problem, then you go solve it. Quit sniffing the farts off my posts.

Paul Schofield
03-29-2011, 10:53 AM
RO's can't control the game most customers play,


This is exactly right. We do not get to decide what the general public and the pros will play. They decide. They rule. We can keep all the games we have. At the same time, we are in desperate need of a game that has broad based appeal that interests novices and pros alike. Golf has it. Bowling has it. We need to have it. This is the puzzle.

I am pointing my finger directly at our refusal to let go of the fatal flaw for being the reason for our 150 years of game jumping, searching for the holy grail that will deliver us to the promised land.

youngstownkid
03-29-2011, 11:26 AM
i understood your point, was just expanding on another point that was made in this point, which i could relate to and agree with. i did not intend to create a parallel thread here, my bad.

youngstownkid
03-29-2011, 11:36 AM
This is exactly right. We do not get to decide what the general public and the pros will play. They decide. They rule. We can keep all the games we have. At the same time, we are in desperate need of a game that has broad based appeal that interests novices and pros alike. Golf has it. Bowling has it. We need to have it. This is the puzzle.

I am pointing my finger directly at our refusal to let go of the fatal flaw for being the reason for our 150 years of game jumping.

IMO :) i don't see how any new games can possibly out-sell 8 ball. there are a very large number of players who play 8 ball regularly. that is the game they understand. trying to sell them a new game is a losing endeavor. Wouldn't it be better to try to build up the popularity of 8 ball, than to introduce a new game that will detract from it's popularity?

It's like Bill Gates saying, we're not doing good enough, let's come out with something that will do better than Windows. Why not just do more advertizing for Windows instead, right? (bad analogy since Windows is a huge success, but just making a point)

Hustlehard
03-29-2011, 11:58 AM
I found a fatal flaw with this forum already, letting an idiot named slickrick_pcs n negative rep me for my simple opinion, and i think you guys will get a laugh at of what he put in his comment- " your comment is bigot and stupid / go to hell...."

you mean bigoted slickrick? talk about irony huh.

scrappy
03-29-2011, 11:58 AM
pool is fundamentaly a great game and as such has no "inherant flaw"

the flaw lies in how it's run and the ammount of funding involved

it comes down to the circle of money thing, good management and a well thoughtout plan that works for all those involved, it has to be worth it for everyone to be successful and sustainable

Derek
03-29-2011, 12:09 PM
Speaking of new league formats, check this one out that Melissa Little created: http://www.15rack.com/15rack/Home.html. 15 innings/racks of the 10 ball ghost basically that is hadicapped based on score sheets.

I can attest to this being a fun league. At least it is something new & innovative based on an old time practice technique.

My fatal flaw is not focusing and committing enough time to be a better player. I see no issues with pool until I can successfully string long racks and consistently beat the best players in the area. Until then, it's an enjoyable, beautiful game/sport with much to learn.

And just to comment on golf as an analogy, there is defense in golf. It's called the golf course (i.e. sand traps, water, rough, etc). That's not even taking weather conditions into account.

Ultimately, pool will never be a big spectator sport in the US. There is too much emphasis on instant gratification in our culture nowadays. Pool doesn't have an 80 yard bomb for a touchdown or a 3-pointer at the buzzer or a walk-off home run. The closest comparison would be a 9-ball break for a win and that's really not all that flashy and it's luck.

There is a demographic for pool, just don't expect it ever to crack into the top 20 sports that Americans love to watch with the way our sports culture has been shaped. The only way I could possibly see pool rising as a popular sport is you have to start with our youth like soccer has been attempting for the last couple of decades. Parents would need facilities that they could have their kids trained at with dedicated instructors, and somehow the perceived shadiness of pool would have to be removed. Gambling would definitely have to be toned down.

Paul Schofield
03-29-2011, 12:10 PM
Hi Paul,

In Dallas, there is a new league that was created and formed by one of the guys behind OB Cues called Pool-300. It combines rotation with straight pool and allows each player chances at the table to see who can win the round. Each player racks the balls the same way, gets the same chance to break, then take their turn at the table to try and run out. It is scored like bowling and each player gets 3 innings in a round to try and make the best score with their handicap. For me, as a more advanced player, it really helps with the my focus and patterns. Against the lower ranked players, I have to play to my level each time I step up to the table to win, if I slack off at all, I lose. It's very easy to handicap and the handicap is very true to the player, as it continually adjusts each time they play a match. Check out their website and let me know what you think - www.pool300.com

Tara

Tara - I did scored game leagues in the early 80's. It started out so promising but after three years, the players came to me and asked that I not run the league again. They wanted to play interactive games. I thought I had discovered the wheel. I can't tell you how disappointed I was. I have often wondered if my version of scored game or my league function was missing a component, and that caused it to fail. I am looking at the website to see what pool300 has that I did not. I see a number of differences. I am very interested in hearing how it goes in the coming years. I am very interested in learning why mine failed. I am also aware of a venture called 6pocket which is also a scored game. I would really like to know how they are doing. Maybe he is following this thread and he can let us know. Thanks for the link. Paul

DogsPlayingPool
03-29-2011, 12:38 PM
...And just to comment on golf as an analogy, there is defense in golf. It's called the golf course (i.e. sand traps, water, rough, etc). That's not even taking weather conditions into account.



The defense you speak of in golf is exactly like that in pool. As golf has bunkers, out of bounds, and rough; so pool has problem clusters, balls blocking pockets and position lanes, balls sitting on the rail near the side pocket etc. The comparison is that in neither game does the competitor play an active defense while the other player is at the table playing offense. Actually pool has more defense than golf because in pool a player can play a safety as defense to the opposing player whereas golf has no such defensive minded strategy. While in both games the "defense" you refer to are mainly inherent in the field of play, in pool some of these can be created by a defensive shot. This doesn't occur in golf. Also, over the course of a 4 round tournament the "defense" a player faces is essentially the same for each hole whereas the problems that may need to be solved in a table layout is different every single rack.

SlickRick_PCS
03-29-2011, 01:53 PM
Who the hell are you to judge me or my posts? You clearly don't have a handle on what I'm trying to say.

Just because Pro-pool doesn't have a higher profile in the publics mind doesn't mean the game is flawed.

People play pool to be competative, maybe even the best (as you so inaccurately pointed out). It doesn't matter that the only people that are watching are other pool players.

If you think that's a problem, then you go solve it. Quit sniffing the farts off my posts.

YOU GOT IT! :thumbup:


note the green, Green. That's exactly what you're comments are: FOUL!

justadub
03-29-2011, 02:16 PM
pool is fundamentaly a great game and as such has no "inherant flaw"

the flaw lies in how it's run and the ammount of funding involved

it comes down to the circle of money thing, good management and a well thoughtout plan that works for all those involved, it has to be worth it for everyone to be successful and sustainable

Ding, ding, ding.... we have a winner! :thumbup:

Wags
03-29-2011, 08:29 PM
I follow your thought process here. Especially regarding 8-ball. It clearly is the most popular game in my part of the world.

I wonder about the 8-footer vs the 9-footer factor though. All we have here locally is 9-footers, with a few exceptions. And in the one room that has both 8's and 9's, whenever the 9's open up, whoever is playing on an 8' moves over immediately. Happened just this past Sunday evening, a couple of times. And we're talking bangers and league players here.

Maybe it's because it's all most anyone here knows, but I personally FAR prefer playing on a 9-footer. And I certainly am just a league-playing banger.

I also enjoy the 9 footer for my table of choice. But we are talking about the betterment of sport at an organized level. May in Las Vegas, all the national league tournaments, is all about 8-ball on the bar box.

Paul Schofield
03-29-2011, 11:40 PM
If pool is right, it works for everybody, everywhere, every time. It works for novices. It works for pros. It works for room owners. It works for tournament promoters. It works for league operators. It works for cue manufacturers. It works for table manufacturers. And it also works when the economy goes south.

We are an unpopular game in tough economic times. If our game is going to make it (or even survive) it won't be in its current form. Our competitors are leaving us in the dust. We need to beat them at the battle for recreational attention (and dollar).

I say "nonsense" to anyone who says we cannot compete.

jwpretd
03-30-2011, 01:41 AM
26 posts since this one and NOBODY thinks 15-ball rotation is a viable option?

Apparently only you and me. It's what I first learned, but I suspect that a lot of people here have rarely or never played it.

nksmfamjp
03-30-2011, 02:53 AM
I'm good with it the way it is, but I do find flatulence:thumbup: to be a good defensive move!!

Paul Schofield
03-30-2011, 08:23 AM
I'm good with it the way it is, but I do find flatulence:thumbup: to be a good defensive move!!

I disagree. That is very offensive.

nancewayne
03-30-2011, 08:38 AM
What I find amazing is on TV, I see a pool table almost every day! Where, you ask....as a back drop for all kinds of different TV commercials !!! They show people drinking and having fun and many other environs. Those of you that don't "Tivo" (record TV programs in order to fast- forward through the commercials), will see what I mean.
WHY, the pool community doesn't tap into those companies using pool as a backdrop, is beyond me ???
F.Y.I.

If pool is right, it works for everybody, everywhere, every time. It works for novices. It works for pros. It works for room owners. It works for tournament promoters. It works for league operators. It works for cue manufacturers. It works for table manufacturers. And it also works when the economy goes south.

We are an unpopular game in tough economic times. If our game is going to make it (or even survive) it won't be in its current form. Our competitors are leaving us in the dust. We need to beat them at the battle for recreational attention (and dollar).

I say "nonsense" to anyone who says we cannot compete.

Paul Schofield
03-30-2011, 09:53 AM
26 posts since this one and NOBODY thinks 15-ball rotation is a viable option?

Maniac

Because it is more of the same and is the perfect example of what I am talking about. We are on this march to more and more difficult games and tougher equipment. This is not inclusive at all.

Island Drive
03-30-2011, 11:08 AM
Because it is more of the same and is the perfect example of what I am talking about. We are on this march to more and more difficult games and tougher equipment. This is not inclusive at all.

I too don't like watching a chess match either, only because I only know which direction they move, not the reasoning behind it.

Paul Schofield
03-30-2011, 07:48 PM
I will try again. I want to put a positive spin on this thing.

Our sport should be able to compete with any of them. Pool is great. Yet after 150 years of throwing everything at it, pool is nowhere in 2011. There comes a point where you look at all that has been done to promote the game, you realize that it is not from a lack of effort. Tell me a new idea of how pool needs to be promoted and I will tell when and where it has already been done.

I am saying that it is time to look inward. Look at our structure. It is not time for more promoting. We have done that. Maybe our product is flawed. Maybe we are promoting a flawed product and as a result, are repeatedly ignored by the public.

I think it is time to look at the structure of all the other successful sports and take some lessons. I am not talking about the business of sports. I am talking about how the games are played.

justnum
03-30-2011, 08:29 PM
I will try again. I want to put a positive spin on this thing.

Our sport should be able to compete with any of them. Pool is great. Yet after 150 years of throwing everything at it, pool is nowhere in 2011. There comes a point where you look at all that has been done to promote the game, you realize that it is not from a lack of effort. Tell me a new idea of how pool needs to be promoted and I will tell when and where it has already been done.

I am saying that it is time to look inward. Look at our structure. It is not time for more promoting. We have done that. Maybe our product is flawed. Maybe we are promoting a flawed product and as a result, are repeatedly ignored by the public.

I think it is time to look at the structure of all the other successful sports and take some lessons. I am not talking about the business of sports. I am talking about how the games are played.

The investors, organizers and room owners have been talking and telling people about what needs to be done, and things haven't sustained any growth for longer than a few years. One person said everyone is in survival mode.

The only approach that hasn't been tried is the bottom up approach. Find out what players think should be done and try it their way.

Paul Schofield
03-30-2011, 09:10 PM
I will try again. I want to put a positive spin on this thing.

Our sport should be able to compete with any of them. Pool is great. Yet after 150 years of throwing everything at it, pool is nowhere in 2011. There comes a point where you look at all that has been done to promote the game, you realize that it is not from a lack of effort. Tell me a new idea of how pool needs to be promoted and I will tell when and where it has already been done.

I am saying that it is time to look inward. Look at our structure. It is not time for more promoting. We have done that. Maybe our product is flawed. Maybe we are promoting a flawed product and as a result, are repeatedly ignored by the public.

I think it is time to look at the structure of all the other successful sports and take some lessons. I am not talking about the business of sports. I am talking about how the games are played.

With this approach, if I wanted to make pool look like the rest of the successful sports, I would change the most obvious thing first. Even though I am a pool player and I feel differently, I would get rid of the called ball in every game. No sport calls anything. In a football huddle, a play is called, but anything can happen and anything does. Just get the ball over the goal line. All the sports are like this. Teams have a strategy and a plan but they don't have to call it and stick to it. It is successful for them. Why not us?

If for no other reason than "they are successful and we are not" I would toss the called ball.

Otterman
03-30-2011, 11:05 PM
I typically stay out of these type conversations (plus I rarely have time to join in), but I feel compelled on this one.

As to the game (or games) of pool, I find very little fault in any of them, with the only real exception being winner-breaks 9 ball. Alternating breaks cures that inequity in my view. I've competed in numerous "successful" sports, but find pool the most rewarding of all. To me, tennis is the major sport most similar to pool. The serve is the equivalent of the break; both are played in sets; both sports require a high degree of skill and training to be successful; and tennis has had it's ups and downs like pool. Tennis pros made a very meager living until the mid 70's and got very little television exposure.

The primary characteristic of all successful sports has little to do with the rules, the time and skill required to participate, or a player's lack of opportunity to influence the outcome. The one thing required for a sport's success is MONEY. Millions of Americans would be in the pool halls if the pros were making the huge salaries of other athletes, were on network TV 3 times a week, and SVB's face was on the Wheaties box. I personally find NASCAR boring; they all essentially drive the same car (with different sponsor graphics) and drive around a track to the left for a couple hours. But, it's hugely successful. Why? MONEY (and rednecks drinking Busch beer, but I digress...). NASCAR has the support of automakers that have very deep pockets. There are numerous other sponsors dumping piles of cash in it now, but they wouldn't be there if not for NASCAR's vast exposure which is a by-product of automaker support.

Pool needs corporate sponsorship with serious resources, preferably with related product lines (Hello, Brunswick??) I'm not sure I will ever see that happen, but to be taken seriously and attract new fans, new participants, and new sponsorship, the U.S. Open champion really needs to pull down more than a 2nd round loser on the Seniors golf tour.

maha
03-31-2011, 12:14 AM
pool is slow and boring to watch. you cant change that. it isnt a good tv sport. it did okay way back when there was only a few channels on the tube. and when on a rainy day there wasnt much else to do but go to the pool room..

there are more fun things to do in todays world and it s easy to get to them and people have the money.

as far as one player doing all the shooting, one pocket solves that and that is where much of the gambling action is.

pool is like tennis. it is hard to win if you are the inferior player. so unless spots are involved, the outcome is predetermined.

Paul Schofield
03-31-2011, 12:38 AM
I typically stay out of these type conversations (plus I rarely have time to join in), but I feel compelled on this one.

As to the game (or games) of pool, I find very little fault in any of them, with the only real exception being winner-breaks 9 ball. Alternating breaks cures that inequity in my view. I've competed in numerous "successful" sports, but find pool the most rewarding of all. To me, tennis is the major sport most similar to pool. The serve is the equivalent of the break; both are played in sets; both sports require a high degree of skill and training to be successful; and tennis has had it's ups and downs like pool. Tennis pros made a very meager living until the mid 70's and got very little television exposure.

The primary characteristic of all successful sports has little to do with the rules, the time and skill required to participate, or a player's lack of opportunity to influence the outcome. The one thing required for a sport's success is MONEY. Millions of Americans would be in the pool halls if the pros were making the huge salaries of other athletes, were on network TV 3 times a week, and SVB's face was on the Wheaties box. I personally find NASCAR boring; they all essentially drive the same car (with different sponsor graphics) and drive around a track to the left for a couple hours. But, it's hugely successful. Why? MONEY (and rednecks drinking Busch beer, but I digress...). NASCAR has the support of automakers that have very deep pockets. There are numerous other sponsors dumping piles of cash in it now, but they wouldn't be there if not for NASCAR's vast exposure which is a by-product of automaker support.

Pool needs corporate sponsorship with serious resources, preferably with related product lines (Hello, Brunswick??) I'm not sure I will ever see that happen, but to be taken seriously and attract new fans, new participants, and new sponsorship, the U.S. Open champion really needs to pull down more than a 2nd round loser on the Seniors golf tour.

Thank you for your comments. I respectfully disagree. I think the success that you describe comes incramentally from the bottom up, rather than from the top down, as you suggest. If the structure is right, the game is fun. If the game is fun, people become interested and highly charged. If people become highly charged, their enthusism infects other people. If enough people become involved, potential sponsors take notice. Potential sponsors evaluate the demographic, size of the charged pool, and potenial. Product identity becomes important. If a sponsor sees potential, the sponsor will couple with the sport to move their product. The sport and the product move forward in tandum. As product moves and the sports popularity grows, so does the sponsorship money.

Golf and Nascar did not become rich and popular instantaniously because a sponsor stepped in. Just the opposite. It was an incramental process.

Pool has to be right. Its current state suggests that it is not.

Maniac
03-31-2011, 06:44 AM
If the structure is right, the game is fun. If the game is fun, people become interested and highly charged. If people become highly charged, their enthusism infects other people. If enough people become involved, potential sponsors take notice. If a sponsor sees potential, the sponsor will couple with the sport to move their product.


Look at all the sentences you started with the word IF. It goes to show you how long an uphill road your on. Maha's post pretty much gave us a simplified version of why pool is not going to be a successful sport (at least as far as professional money winnings go). It's boring to watch. I take a nap on most days. You know what programming I pull up on my DVR to watch to transition me to sleep? Yep, pool matches. Puts me out every time. There isn't a game currently played that can change the fact that it's boring to watch, and I doubt that one can come up with one to make things better.

Someone said that pool needs a corporate sponsor with DEEP pockets to save it. It might make a difference for a brief period, but it ain't gonna save it.

Everybody talks about it but nobody can do a damn thing for it. It ain't gonna get fixed, at least not to the pros/room owners satisfaction. Not in my lifetime anyway.

I will close with this: There's a buttload of people in America/worldwide playing pool. It is still one of the top participation sports played not only here in the States, but abroad as well. Is there REALLY anything WRONG with pool??? I don't think so.

Why do people always think success depends on how much MONEY is made? Obviously pool is successful without big payouts, judging by how many people worldwide are playing it. And......"if everybody's doing it....." :cool:

Maniac (not Vince :grin:)

Paul Schofield
03-31-2011, 08:15 AM
Look at all the sentences you started with the word IF. It goes to show you how long an uphill road your on. (not Vince :grin:)

I do not think it is a long uphill battle. I am saying that IF the game is right, everything else falls into place.

Contemplate changing the structure of our game to be in line with other successful sports.

I know you find this hard to believe from what you see around you, but the business of pool is in big trouble. Status quo is a killer.

Otterman
03-31-2011, 03:21 PM
Look at all the sentences you started with the word IF. It goes to show you how long an uphill road your on. Maha's post pretty much gave us a simplified version of why pool is not going to be a successful sport (at least as far as professional money winnings go). It's boring to watch. I take a nap on most days. You know what programming I pull up on my DVR to watch to transition me to sleep? Yep, pool matches. Puts me out every time. There isn't a game currently played that can change the fact that it's boring to watch, and I doubt that one can come up with one to make things better.

Someone said that pool needs a corporate sponsor with DEEP pockets to save it. It might make a difference for a brief period, but it ain't gonna save it.

Everybody talks about it but nobody can do a damn thing for it. It ain't gonna get fixed, at least not to the pros/room owners satisfaction. Not in my lifetime anyway.

I will close with this: There's a buttload of people in America/worldwide playing pool. It is still one of the top participation sports played not only here in the States, but abroad as well. Is there REALLY anything WRONG with pool??? I don't think so.

Why do people always think success depends on how much MONEY is made? Obviously pool is successful without big payouts, judging by how many people worldwide are playing it. And......"if everybody's doing it....." :cool:

Maniac (not Vince :grin:)

Pool is terrifically successful as a participant sport. It's just not as a professional sport. I just personally think the best players in the world should make a nice living. Some of those guys can't even afford the travel expenses to attend all the major tournaments, particularly if they're overseas. The prize money for pro tournaments is pathetic. I'm a corporate banker, and I can tell you from experience that decent corporate sponsors ante up BIG bucks for exposure and association with more popular (and prestigious) sports. Half a million and more is nothing for these organizations to shell out. Plus, these types of sponsors and the money they contribute dictate that their events get managed in a professional manner. They'd also put an end to the often horrible appearance and behavior of some of the tour regulars.

The "bottom up" approach won't work in pool because of the venues and the demographics of those that participate in it. Face it, most pool tables are located in bars or old, worn-out pool halls that are packed with gambling-addicted hustlers and patrons that drink excessively. Corporate America isn't interested in marketing to that demographic. Things would be much different if every private country club had 10 or more Gold Crowns along with the tennis courts and golf course.

justnum
03-31-2011, 03:40 PM
Since pool is flawed how about room owners be charge renters and players a professional pool tax.

The tax can then be used to promote events, the sport and reimburse players when prize money is not paid.

(Just tossing out ideas.)

To sell the idea I wouldn't call it a tax, I'd call it a membership fee. The perks of being a member is free discounts to overpriced items and a weekly email about the latest "deals."

Paul Schofield
03-31-2011, 04:21 PM
The "bottom up" approach won't work in pool because of the venues and the demographics of those that participate in it. Face it, most pool tables are located in bars or old, worn-out pool halls that are packed with gambling-addicted hustlers and patrons that drink excessively. Corporate America isn't interested in marketing to that demographic. Things would be much different if every private country club had 10 or more Gold Crowns along with the tennis courts and golf course.


Thank you for your comments.

Boy, did you nail it. At the same time, I beg to differ with the "bottom up" approach won't work. That is how it does work. If the structure of the game is right, everything builds on that: viable and respected venues emerge along with a desirable demographic. Then and only then can pool's full potential be realized.

Which came first: a good solid sport or the deep pocketed sponsor?

I am with you. Pool is nowhere and it is not going anywhere in its current state. I say the demographic is bad because the venues are bad. The venues are bad because the game is bad. Fix the game.

I believe that it is the structure of the game that is the root of all of pool's troubles.

I would also like to further validate your remarks. When I open the Billiards Digest, I see no ads for automobiles, computors, phones, hygene products, or anything other than pool gadgets. This tells us what the corporate world thinks of our world.

justnum
03-31-2011, 06:31 PM
Thank you for your comments.

Boy, did you nail it. At the same time, I beg to differ with the "bottom up" approach won't work. That is how it does work. If the structure of the game is right, everything builds on that: viable and respected venues emerge along with a desirable demographic. Then and only then can pool's full potential be realized.

Which came first: a good solid sport or the deep pocketed sponsor?

I am with you. Pool is nowhere and it is not going anywhere in its current state. I say the demographic is bad because the venues are bad. The venues are bad because the game is bad. Fix the game.

I believe that it is the structure of the game that is the root of all of pool's troubles.

I would also like to further validate your remarks. When I open the Billiards Digest, I see no adds for automobiles, computors, phones, hygene products, or anything other than pool gadgets. This tells us what the corporate world thinks of our world.

Should we put unemployment forms in it instead and ask for government welfare programs or veteran of foreign wars advertisements? Just tell them the audience and they will lend a hand.

Most people don't know what customers are looking for but if you know where the need is they will be happy to address it.

justnum
03-31-2011, 06:41 PM
Another fatal flaw are the cold callers or the spammers, who keep trying to sell the same old snake oil for a quick rally and something to cheer about.

The only tradition pool has kept alive is that people are interested in playing it, all the other business traditions have popped and bubbled too fast to make a lasting impact on the community.

In short the fatal flaw is that people trust what business people say.

Zbotiman
03-31-2011, 07:43 PM
Thank you for your comments.

Boy, did you nail it. At the same time, I beg to differ with the "bottom up" approach won't work. That is how it does work. If the structure of the game is right, everything builds on that: viable and respected venues emerge along with a desirable demographic. Then and only then can pool's full potential be realized.

Which came first: a good solid sport or the deep pocketed sponsor?

I am with you. Pool is nowhere and it is not going anywhere in its current state. I say the demographic is bad because the venues are bad. The venues are bad because the game is bad. Fix the game.

I believe that it is the structure of the game that is the root of all of pool's troubles.

I would also like to further validate your remarks. When I open the Billiards Digest, I see no adds for automobiles, computors, phones, hygene products, or anything other than pool gadgets. This tells us what the corporate world thinks of our world.

....You might enjoy reading the book "Golf's Golden Grind," it is the story of these types of topics, in the construction of the PGA Tour, and how they managed to emerge from the late 20's to the time of Palmer's Open win in 1960, at Cherry Hills and as everyone knows, that's the birth of televised Golf.

The people who brought those things to pass in Golfdom, "KNEW," exactly what they were trying to do and had the economic pull and influence to make "their will come to pass." Pool is not so lucky, great game, no BIG MONEY upper class PATRONAGE!

Paul Schofield
03-31-2011, 08:57 PM
....You might enjoy reading the book "Golf's Golden Grind," it is the story of these types of topics, in the construction of the PGA Tour, and how they managed to emerge from the late 20's to the time of Palmer's Open win in 1960, at Cherry Hills and as everyone knows, that's the birth of televised Golf.

The people who brought those things to pass in Golfdom, "KNEW," exactly what they were trying to do and had the economic pull and influence to make "their will come to pass." Pool is not so lucky, great game, no BIG MONEY upper class PATRONAGE!

Thank you. I will get my hands on it and I will read it. As a matter of fact, I am very interested in it.

no BIG MONEY upper class PATRONAGE! I know I am being redundant and boring but I am going to keep pounding away at this thing... No upper class? Fix the game.

Zbotiman
03-31-2011, 09:58 PM
Thank you. I will get my hands on it and I will read it. As a matter of fact, I am very interested in it.

no BIG MONEY upper class PATRONAGE! I know I am being redundant and boring but I am going to keep pounding away at this thing... No upper class? Fix the game.

Here's the thing, what's the beat to your pounding? "Is there a best game that could overcome all the problems the sport of pool has?" Maybe under the circumstances, Pool is all it ever can be. That with any type of billiard ball game, this is it. It seems like to me, public interest is always focused around personalities, in any given sport, not the game itself?

Was the concept of Arnold Palmer and Jack Nicklaus, the construct of IMG? You might be aware, Mark McCormack, himself came to look at Earl Strickland, in person. The IMG group believed they could build interest in the Sport of Pool around Stricklands personality. In the end, though, I'm told it was the problems they encountered else where within the sport over money (long term deals they wanted to make in management contracts and commitments from within the sport) that drove them away. I believe that was back somewhere in about 87-89? I can assure you of this, based upon the IMG track record, had there involvement taken place, no matter how big of a percentage they would have taken, even if it looked like every penny went off the table in the deal, the revenue they would have created in the outside world, would have made more for everyone in this sport, than could have been generated by any other means.
The problem is, that opportunity passed and very few were involved in the decisions that said, adios to IMG. I'm hard pressed in this day and age, to believe we'll see anything like that again, unless another personality, the likes of a Strickland rises up, and wins like he did then, breaking all the records and dominating this dying sport and catching the public's eye in some form of video broadcasting or another.

I'll bet pool will still survive, even this Fatal Flaw with the games, and this, it's latest form of demise. I really do think pocket billiards is a great game in all it's many forms, the nature of the game itself is just too, complicated to be really popular, IMHO! However, once you've had a few bloody noses, you often learn a bit about politics and things "DO" change sometimes, around enigmatic personalities, and super-smart promoters! Like "they" say, "it ain't over till the fat lady sings."

Maniac
03-31-2011, 10:14 PM
... No upper class? Fix the game.

You can "fix the game" all you want to, but its venues are still going to have its share of gamblers, druggies, drunks, fighters, and women strippin' down to their bras to play a match ;). You aren't going to change human beings by fixing the game. What, you think you're going to clean up the sport of pocket billiards? Not likely. Pool is always going to be a recreational game. Problem is, most kids growing up don't want no part of it. Hell, go into a poolhall and round up a bunch of people 25 years old and younger and ask how many of them have ever played a game of snooker before. I bet half of them won't even know what the hell snooker is. Pool is falling down because times are a changin', and the modern day youth aren't into pool like we were when we were young. I don't know why pool is so popular in Europe and Asia. Maybe it's because the young folks there don't have the financial assets to acquire all the electronic toys the American youth have.

Otterman hit the nail on the head when he said that pool is just not a professional sport. I agree with his post and I too would like to see bigger and better things happen to American pool. I just don't feel like it's going to happen in my lifetime as long as the poolhalls are patronized by people that the general public has a disdain for. Just my $.02.

Maniac

Paul Schofield
04-01-2011, 01:30 PM
What, you think you're going to clean up the sport of pocket billiards? Not likely.Maniac

I don't think you understand. The desirable demographic needs venues to play at too. There are almost none.

I will use an analogy: Imagine a thriving dirty greasy spoon restaurant located in downtown America. Drunks eat at the place at 3 in the morning. Bums come in to get warm. The place is a cheap fix to kill the pain. A lot of coffee is sold. You know the place. There are tens of thousands of places like this across the country. In no way are these places representative of the entire restaurant industry. There are restaurants that design their interiors and menus to cater to a much more desirable demographic. These restaurants have little interest in competing or converting the clientele or management of a greasy spoon to something better.

The same is true for people who enjoy playing pool. Not only does the desirable demographic need places eat out, they also need places to recreate. They are not eating at some rodent infested downtown eatery, nor are they playing pool at some filthy rundown poolroom or some toilet bar. Leave the undesirable demographic alone. They like their places and they need to have their fun too. Don't try to clean them up! Just leave them alone.

I am saying that the structure of the game is wrong for the more desirable demographic. Fix the game. If the game was structured for a more desirable demographic, venues would emerge targeting them! Look...pool is considered a filthy, slimy game in the eyes of the public. Has it ever occurred to anyone that maybe the reputation is well deserved and it is lowlife under its current structure? Maybe this is our glass ceiling?

If there was a place like mine in every town in America, pool would be in great shape. I started a thread a while back dealing with a dress code and maintaining a respectable billiard room http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=214081&highlight=schofield. That is only part of the story. The rest of the story is what was done with the game. Later for that. Right now, I am trying to articulate a convincing case to examine our game instead of wasting time and money trying to promote it in its current structure.

Roger Long
04-01-2011, 01:57 PM
Makes sense, Paul.

Roger

Otterman
04-01-2011, 02:54 PM
Another fatal flaw are the cold callers or the spammers, who keep trying to sell the same old snake oil for a quick rally and something to cheer about.

The only tradition pool has kept alive is that people are interested in playing it, all the other business traditions have popped and bubbled too fast to make a lasting impact on the community.

In short the fatal flaw is that people trust what business people say.

The individuals the "pool world" has trusted that have ended up damaging the sport or scamming everyone aren't business people. They're con men, or in the current venacular, fools and trolls.:D It's generally not a problem trusting real business people. We just rarely see them in the pool world. Again, you can't attract real business people to pool because of the lack of real money in the sport. No legitimate businessman enters ventures that are unlikely to produce significant revenue.

Otterman
04-01-2011, 03:11 PM
....You might enjoy reading the book "Golf's Golden Grind," it is the story of these types of topics, in the construction of the PGA Tour, and how they managed to emerge from the late 20's to the time of Palmer's Open win in 1960, at Cherry Hills and as everyone knows, that's the birth of televised Golf.

The people who brought those things to pass in Golfdom, "KNEW," exactly what they were trying to do and had the economic pull and influence to make "their will come to pass." Pool is not so lucky, great game, no BIG MONEY upper class PATRONAGE!

Sadly, POOL was the popular sport in the 20's rather than golf! Greenleaf was a regular in the newspaper headlines and had endorsement deals (a cigarette company being one of them). He was pulling in some seriuos coin for the times, and was every bit as popular as the athletes of today.

Otterman
04-01-2011, 03:25 PM
Thank you for your comments.

Boy, did you nail it. At the same time, I beg to differ with the "bottom up" approach won't work. That is how it does work. If the structure of the game is right, everything builds on that: viable and respected venues emerge along with a desirable demographic. Then and only then can pool's full potential be realized.

Which came first: a good solid sport or the deep pocketed sponsor?

I am with you. Pool is nowhere and it is not going anywhere in its current state. I say the demographic is bad because the venues are bad. The venues are bad because the game is bad. Fix the game.

I believe that it is the structure of the game that is the root of all of pool's troubles.

I would also like to further validate your remarks. When I open the Billiards Digest, I see no adds for automobiles, computors, phones, hygene products, or anything other than pool gadgets. This tells us what the corporate world thinks of our world.

While I disagree that the games played in pool contain the flaws responsible for our lack of notariety, you make some very good points, particularly regarding the venues. Granted, most of the people I've played with over the years were not only fairly strong players, but were more than a bit misplaced in the venues we were forced to frequent in order to play. My crew included a golf pro, the owner of a medical equipment company, a civil servant, and others of the same ilk. Certainly not bashing those from more blue collar backgrounds, but just reinforcing your point about the venue itself rather than the patronage contributing to the problems. I may be a banker now, but I'm really just a redneck from southeast Oklahoma with a college education......

I love the games largely the way they are, in particular the rotation games. None of the games can be any worse to watch than golf, and that sport is doing ridiculously well. The general public can get some appreciation of the sport and the players from watching, but it'll always require someone with real pool knowledge to fully appreciate what's happening on the table.

Maniac
04-01-2011, 04:16 PM
Fix the game.

Quit talking in riddles and fix it yourself. IMO there's nothing wrong with the GAME, but there's PLENTY wrong with the character/behavior of human beings.

Maniac

justnum
04-01-2011, 04:21 PM
The Fatal Flaw is Kevin Trudeau isn't promoting pool.

When he was there wasn't any pro player who didn't know who he was.

That type of professional level talent is what pool is missing.

Paul Schofield
04-01-2011, 06:59 PM
IMO there's nothing wrong with the GAME
Maniac


How right you are. For all the people that play the game, there IS NOTHING wrong with it. I differ in that I view the game through the eyes of all the people that will have nothing to do with it.

Here is the problem: Your group is shrinking and my group is growing. This does not bode well for pocket billiards.

Even with its current state, I am very optimistic.

Maxx
04-01-2011, 07:28 PM
I don't think you understand. The I will use an analogy: Imagine a thriving dirty greasy spoon restaurant located in downtown America. Drunks eat at the place at 3 in the morning. Bums come in to get warm. The place is a cheap fix to kill the pain. A lot of coffee is sold. You know the place. There are tens of thousands of places like this across the country. In no way are these places representative of the entire restaurant industry. There are restaurants that design their interiors and menus to cater to a much more desirable demographic. These restaurants have little interest in competing or converting the clientele or management of a greasy spoon to something better.

Good point; but usually the food, and the atmosphere, is better a a dive, than a trendy restaurant. Haven't you seen "Diners, drive-ins, and Dives"?
Bill

Otterman
04-01-2011, 08:16 PM
Quit talking in riddles and fix it yourself. IMO there's nothing wrong with the GAME, but there's PLENTY wrong with the character/behavior of human beings.

Maniac

:idea2: Nicely put! Ditto. :clapping:

Paul Schofield
04-03-2011, 10:14 AM
I find these kinds of conversations fascinating. I get to go back to my billiard room, contemplate and experiment with many different ideas. I try everything. I do stuff. 99% of it fails, but that's OK. Many people get emotional, angry, aggravated, or upset over opinions that differ from theirs. Don’t. This is only a forum and not much said here affects anything. If this thread bothers you, don’t read any more because it is about to get more controversial.

Now I have read your descriptions of 1) our promoters described as con-men, fools and trolls, 2) our venues as bars and old, worn-out pool halls, 3) our clientele as excessive drinkers, gambling addicted hustlers, druggies, and fighters. I CAN CLEARLY SEE a connection between the unscrupulous promoters, publicly distained venues, anti-social clientele, and last of all and most importantly and significantly: THE GAME. These three games of ours (8,9,10 ball) are not respected games of sport. They are pirate and shyster games. They promote sandbagging, cheating, and all kinds of chicanery. The last time we had a game that was respectable was when Straight-Pool was the championship game (Greenleaf’s game). Scroll through the threads and there are scads of sandbagging and cheating topics discussed. On the other hand, Straight-Pool is pretty honorable and staight forward. Unfortunately, the fatal flaw sunk Straight-Pool (and it ain’t comin’ back). Well the fatal flaw also infects 8, 9, and 10 ball in more ways than one.

The absolute best game we have right now is One-Pocket. It is so simple and perfect that the rules go untouched, year after year. Don’t call anything and get 8 in your hole. It is unfortunate that the game has so little appeal. People want to shoot at pockets.

I look at everyone who plays pool right now. I have no desire to change the way they play. I want more people to play and to expand into an additional demographic. I think this happens by altering the structure of the game, not by getting out and promoting what we have. I can take a lesson from our game's failures. I am going to do something different.

My apologies if I have offended anyone here.

Maniac
04-03-2011, 01:52 PM
I am going to do something different.



And that "something different" is.........?????????

Please, by all means, finish the conversation.

Maniac

DogLoop
04-05-2011, 09:57 PM
Ok, someone has to say it... properly.
Pool is not flawed; pool is perfect, people are flawed. If people were brave, competitive, fierce and honest we might catch a glimpse of the order from chaos that is pool.

I'll play Devil's advocate... a little.

Pool mimicks life in many ways. Much like life, we don't have control over what we get, just control over what we do with what we get... how we play our cards, so to speak (not intentionally drawing allusion to poker, but maybe we can try to look at a part of pool that similarly makes poker likable en masse later).

Do any of you remember playing 8-ball wherein the rules required you to play the suit that you made on the break?
If so, here's a flawed little idea to attract us to a small but maybe likeable change in tournament play. Allow me to suggest 9-ball for the example stipulation:

Before the opening break, players flip or lag for "even or odd" (1,3,5,7 are odd - nine is not counted as it's a winner); whatever suit you 'won' you retain the entire set. IF you make a ball on the break that matches your 'suit', you continue shooting, run out the set ... whatever.
However, if you fail to pocket any ball or pocket only ones from your opponent's suit, your turn ends without foul and the incoming player has possibly an opportunity he might not have normally had.

Keep in mind that pattern racking and racking knowledge can play a role (or a roll!), so it should be a requirement for an 'even' and an 'odd' to be at alternate 'wings' and should be considered a foul for a player to break from the same 'side' as his suit (assisting his suit selection).
I can't think of a reason why the trailing player couldn't be allowed a 'tying' inning other than time restrictions.
Otherwise same rules, ball in hand is not an enemy since it speeds things up for our "instant gratification" driven society.

I like the idea of equal opportunity, but life doesn't really offer that, and since someone has to go first, neither does pool. Alternate the break played perfectly by both sides means the winner is decided on a lag or coin toss.

BTW, I think pool300 is nice for league play, but seems a little toothless for match play.

If we want pool to grow, kids have to play it. When I was a kid there were arcades, bowling alleys, and just a few other places that I could play at (Skate-City !). Is pool accessible to kids? Maybe. Do parents even let their kids roam around with all the weirdos in this world on the loose? Probably not, America.

I think that very few good parents would take their young ones on a pool outing to the places I play at; the ones that do seem to have the most ill-manered kids and have a strong sense of entitlement (the little apples fall close to the trees, too).
Honestly, I'd love to see a place that could be truly family friendly; I don't see why pool can't be marketed as a much better and more rewarding way to spend a few hours than a movie ... I know it's hard to compete with a family of four watching a Redbox rental for .25 USD each, but it's a much better option than 6.75 a ticket and 20.00 for drinks and Lord knows how much for snacks.
So, to you room owners out there; since smoking is all but gone in the USA, focus on a great kitchen, a good bar (even a soda bar!) and multiple streams of revenue... consider sponsoring your top player to a pro event; it's an investment in a (pipe)dream for your young players. They will drag their friends in to the room who don't want to be there ... work hard at giving THEM (the friends, dummy!) a reason to spend their money. Find a local Pro who will show up to give (at least) an inexpensive 1st lesson (clean-shaven and in a clean change of clothes) to your clientelle.
Pool is hard to learn properly from the get-go, the players who'd benefit most from structured learning are least likely to accept that structure.

Like I said, pool is perfect, people are flawed.

Paul Schofield
04-05-2011, 11:10 PM
.Pool mimicks life in many ways. Much like life, we don't have control over what we get, just control over what we do with what we get.

I enjoyed reading this post so much that I read it a few times. I particulary liked the above quote.

I hope you will take the time (hours) and play the game you described. Please come back here and tell us your experience.

It is my belief that the most crucial component of any sport/game is is not that it be challenging, skillful, competitive, or fair. It must first and foremost be FUN. FUN is abstract and cannot be calculated or produced with any equation. We humans can be unexplainable. The only way to really know is to play.

crosseyedjoe
04-05-2011, 11:27 PM
Uh, golf has pretty broad based appeal, has major sponsorship, hugely successful tours, network TV plus it's own dedicated cable channel, and even the second tier & journeyman pros are millionaires.

In golf your competitor also doesn't play defense against you.

With all due respect, I don't think that's it.

Correct, but the other thing he is pointing out is that you can lose in pool without even had the chance to play at all. In golf every player got to play.

Just imagine a fishing sport where you have to stand on the side every time someone catches a fish and continue to stand there as long as the other player keep hooking fish, let say, every 5 min.

asbani
04-05-2011, 11:38 PM
this is true imo, every other sport has both players gets the same opportunity to try and win, same exact opportunity, except for pool & snooker where a player can really be playing very very well, yet loses to another player who also plays well but also gets some great rolls, a game in the U.S. Open between Mika vs Klatt comes to mind, both hasn't missed anything, except Klatt was sitting in his chair, and Mika was getting good after breaking the balls (which we all know is just a chance, yes good break, but its just a chance of getting something after hitting them hard)

how to fix it? Lets think ;)

DogsPlayingPool
04-06-2011, 12:22 AM
Correct, but the other thing he is pointing out is that you can lose in pool without even had the chance to play at all. In golf every player got to play.

Just imagine a fishing sport where you have to stand on the side every time someone catches a fish and continue to stand there as long as the other player keep hooking fish, let say, every 5 min.

That's true in theory, but how often does that come even semi-close to happening in reality? Maybe the 150 and out in 14.1 and that doesn't happen that often. And that is taken care of with the round robin format that is used often in straight pool tournaments. It is far more the norm in a 9 or 10 Ball race for both players to have sufficient chances to seize command.

And yes, two players can both play very well and one good or bad roll can decide the outcome. That's how most sporting events are decided when two players play equally well, it comes down to one or two little things, like sinking the 60 foot putt or holing out from the fairway, or the stroke in tennis that hits the net and leaks over, or the grounder right at the third baseman that hits the bag and scoots to the corner for a base clearing double instead of a double play, or the pass that's tipped at the line of scrimmage yet makes it to a different receiver for a touchdown. Very often in any sport where both sides play equal it will come down to something little or lucky. These things happen in all sports it's just that usually one side plays better than the other so the outcome is not affected, and this is true in pool too.

Paul Schofield
04-09-2011, 11:48 PM
I am going to come at this from a number of different angles to try to make my point.

This is all about engaging players and keeping them coming back. We are losing too many people and it need not be.

Imagine a game of bowling. Imagine if they had the same structure that we have. If every time a player made a strike, he was entitled to roll again, denying his opponent an opportunity to roll the ball. Imagine if a player rolled 12 strikes in a row. He would win 300 to 0. This is what we do.

Now imagine that at the same time a bowler rolls a 300 game but his opponent also is guaranteed a regular and predictable opportunity to participate and score. Lets say he rolls a 299 game during the 300 game. This sounds like a winner for the sport to me. The guy who rolled the 299 game is coming back. They may lose this guy if he rolled 0.

You may say "This is unusual and very few players play this well and I am citing extreme examples. Most of the time, in pool, everyone gets plenty of chances". I strongly disagree. I think that the structure of our game aggravates people to quit. A sense of viable and fair competition does not exist in our game.

336Robin
04-10-2011, 02:28 AM
It’s not rocket science. All one has to do is pick out the common components of all successful sports and then identify what is missing in pool. Pool has a “FATAL FLAW”. Pool has its own glass ceiling.

Here is the “FATAL FLAW”: A player is entitled to play on offence and score without limit while an opponent sits idly without influence. The combination of these three together is a recipe for absolute failure. All sports know that this is unacceptable. No successful legitimate sport has this structure. This current structure of pool mirrors a video game, not a sport. Play Pac Man and make your opponent sit and watch you clear screens. Play pool and make your opponent sit and watch you run balls/racks.

Take note of the following: a 240,000 straight rail billiard run, a run of 622 balkline billiards, a run of 31 three cushion billiards, a run of 4137 points in English Billiards, a 526 ball run in straight pool, an 18 pack in bar-box nine-ball, an 11 pack in nine-ball on a big-table. Where are these games now? Are these examples of successful games with viable futures? All these games are evidence of failed attempts to come to terms with the “FATAL FLAW”. Players get good so let’s make the game harder. Is Ten Ball with tiny pockets the answer to improving interest in the game? I don’t think so.

Baseball, football, basketball, golf, bowling, and other successful sports have written into their rules, regular and predictable opportunities for players/teams to participate. This makes for viable competition and result in popular successful sports. Pool needs to look inward at its structure and look for ways to do the same. The fix would send pool’s evolution in an entirely different direction. Evolution takes a long time and pool is light years away from being ready for prime time. If the “FATAL FLAW” was fixed, I think it is very possible that over time, one new game would emerge that would have the broad based appeal needed so that pool could join all the other successful sports.

Paul,
Great post brother, rep to you by the way. I will now go back and read the other posts. Great solutions are borne out of great ideas.

How about Bank, Shoot, Bank? That would sure change some things!

336Robin :thumbup:
http://274928807619529663.weebly.com/

Maniac
04-10-2011, 06:35 AM
Paul,
Great post brother, rep to you by the way. I will now go back and read the other posts. Great solutions are borne out of great ideas.

How about Bank, Shoot, Bank? That would sure change some things!

336Robin :thumbup:
http://274928807619529663.weebly.com/

As has been previously mentioned, One Pocket and games with alternating breaks would change some things too!!! These ideas and thoughts are nothing NEW. It's just that PEOPLE are too stubborn or set in their ways to change. Right now, 10-ball is all the rage, and in a democracy, the majority get what they want.

Maniac

paksat
04-10-2011, 07:59 AM
I find these kinds of conversations fascinating. I get to go back to my billiard room, contemplate and experiment with many different ideas. I try everything. I do stuff. 99% of it fails, but that's OK. Many people get emotional, angry, aggravated, or upset over opinions that differ from theirs. Don’t. This is only a forum and not much said here affects anything. If this thread bothers you, don’t read any more because it is about to get more controversial.

Now I have read your descriptions of 1) our promoters described as con-men, fools and trolls, 2) our venues as bars and old, worn-out pool halls, 3) our clientele as excessive drinkers, gambling addicted hustlers, druggies, and fighters. I CAN CLEARLY SEE a connection between the unscrupulous promoters, publicly distained venues, anti-social clientele, and last of all and most importantly and significantly: THE GAME. These three games of ours (8,9,10 ball) are not respected games of sport. They are pirate and shyster games. They promote sandbagging, cheating, and all kinds of chicanery. The last time we had a game that was respectable was when Straight-Pool was the championship game (Greenleaf’s game). Scroll through the threads and there are scads of sandbagging and cheating topics discussed. On the other hand, Straight-Pool is pretty honorable and staight forward. Unfortunately, the fatal flaw sunk Straight-Pool (and it ain’t comin’ back). Well the fatal flaw also infects 8, 9, and 10 ball in more ways than one.

The absolute best game we have right now is One-Pocket. It is so simple and perfect that the rules go untouched, year after year. Don’t call anything and get 8 in your hole. It is unfortunate that the game has so little appeal. People want to shoot at pockets.

I look at everyone who plays pool right now. I have no desire to change the way they play. I want more people to play and to expand into an additional demographic. I think this happens by altering the structure of the game, not by getting out and promoting what we have. I can take a lesson from our game's failures. I am going to do something different.

My apologies if I have offended anyone here.

One pocket is just the essence of boring when it comes to watching it though. Although i'm sure there are people out there that play it that will enjoy a good match.

The fact is that the majority of the game from what i've seen is spent moving balls around as in an endless loop. So very little action which is why I don't play/watch/gamble in it. I'm sure if you had your own pool table that you can get into a very deep train of thought playing it. But when it comes to going out to a bar and playing it. That's just not going to happen and if you want to appeal to masses, that's going to be something that has to be considered.

I've been asked multiple times to play it at the pool hall and decline immediately everytime.

In reality, I think that 10 ball has finally got it down. The rules are excellent. You have a push out ( and damnit APA would you just put that one rule in there for crying out loud ), you have call shot, and you have the ability to pass the shot back to the opponent if they don't call safe and miss but get lucky leaving you snookered. It simply takes all the luck out and makes the game as much about skill as it can be.

9-ball could really use that rule and I don't know why it's not implemented really.

subdude1974
04-10-2011, 11:40 AM
Uh, golf has pretty broad based appeal, has major sponsorship, hugely successful tours, network TV plus it's own dedicated cable channel, and even the second tier & journeyman pros are millionaires.

In golf your competitor also doesn't play defense against you.

With all due respect, I don't think that's it.
True, no defense in golf. But no matter how many birdies and eagles you make or how many shots in a row you hit pure, your opponent is playing as well. He doesnt sit until you hit one in the bunker on the 18th hole. There is only one similarity between pool and golf. It is all about controling a little white ball. That is all.

CreeDo
04-10-2011, 02:05 PM
Sorry, this makes no sense.

Pool was much more popular a long time ago, when people actually played those games with huge numbers... balkline, straight pool, etc. Back when every town had a pool hall, opponents were routinely glued to their chairs for hours... and spectators filled the room to see it.

Nowadays, the games and the rules have all been changed to give the opponent more opportunities, yet pool is less popular. Go figure. When a miracle high run does happen you're seeing something exceptional and exciting, even the amateur knows a straight pool run of 500 or a 9b 10 pack is something miraculous. They aren't hoping it ends so they can see the other guy shoot. They WANT to see it go on.

If you crank the numbers, probably both players in typical pro level 9b matches AVERAGE at least one chance per game. Like clockwork. It doesn't change anything. There's an occasional burst, a 3-pack here and there, but 5-packs and up are pretty rare. Pool isn't unpopular because of some rare thing that occasionally happens... the average ESPNer probably doesn't even realize a 5-pack is humanly possible.

Pool is just unexciting to watch because nothing about it looks superhuman. Most of us can't dunk or hit a golf ball 300 yards or throw a 50 yard touchdown pass, that looks superhuman and talented. But all of us have made any pool shot you see on TV. Pool isn't easy but when played well it looks easy and therefore bores people.

paksat
04-10-2011, 02:13 PM
Sorry, this makes no sense.

Pool was much more popular a long time ago, when people actually played those games with huge numbers... balkline, straight pool, etc. Back when every town had a pool hall, opponents were routinely glued to their chairs for hours... and spectators filled the room to see it.

Nowadays, the games and the rules have all been changed to give the opponent more opportunities, yet pool is less popular. Go figure. When a miracle high run does happen you're seeing something exceptional and exciting, even the amateur knows a straight pool run of 500 or a 9b 10 pack is something miraculous. They aren't hoping it ends so they can see the other guy shoot. They WANT to see it go on.

If you crank the numbers, probably both players in typical pro level 9b matches AVERAGE at least one chance per game. Like clockwork. It doesn't change anything. There's an occasional burst, a 3-pack here and there, but 5-packs and up are pretty rare. Pool isn't unpopular because of some rare thing that occasionally happens... the average ESPNer probably doesn't even realize a 5-pack is humanly possible.

Pool is just unexciting to watch because nothing about it looks superhuman. Most of us can't dunk or hit a golf ball 300 yards or throw a 50 yard touchdown pass, that looks superhuman and talented. But all of us have made any pool shot you see on TV. Pool isn't easy but when played well it looks easy and therefore bores people.

The only problem I have with this is that I remember the first time I seen a SL 9 in the APA play. I didn't care about pool until that night, and so many of the other people that were in the bar.

Everyone, who couldn't play a lick were completely mesmerized by the gracefullness and effortless play

Paul Schofield
04-10-2011, 08:15 PM
Sorry, this makes no sense.

There's an occasional burst, a 3-pack here and there, but 5-packs and up are pretty rare. Pool isn't unpopular because of some rare thing that occasionally happens... the average ESPNer probably doesn't even realize a 5-pack is humanly possible.

I am not thinking about ESPN or the pros. I am thinking about our sport.

I sited the worst case scenarios as a result of the structure of our games. If I compare the structure of all other successful INTERACTIVE sports to the structure of our games, I can see a stark difference. The issue exists even if each player gets 5 chances each game.

If a player pockets a ball, he is entitled to shoot again at another ball. In the meantime, the opponent cannot participate in any way. This is not a recipe for viable competition. There is not one INTERACTIVE sport with this structure. I can't come up with one.

I have often wondered if people instinctively sense an unfairness and subconsciously back away as a result.

gpeezy
04-10-2011, 08:35 PM
It’s not rocket science. All one has to do is pick out the common components of all successful sports and then identify what is missing in pool. Pool has a “FATAL FLAW”. Pool has its own glass ceiling.

Here is the “FATAL FLAW”: A player is entitled to play on offence and score without limit while an opponent sits idly without influence. The combination of these three together is a recipe for absolute failure. All sports know that this is unacceptable. No successful legitimate sport has this structure. This current structure of pool mirrors a video game, not a sport. Play Pac Man and make your opponent sit and watch you clear screens. Play pool and make your opponent sit and watch you run balls/racks.

Take note of the following: a 240,000 straight rail billiard run, a run of 622 balkline billiards, a run of 31 three cushion billiards, a run of 4137 points in English Billiards, a 526 ball run in straight pool, an 18 pack in bar-box nine-ball, an 11 pack in nine-ball on a big-table. Where are these games now? Are these examples of successful games with viable futures? All these games are evidence of failed attempts to come to terms with the “FATAL FLAW”. Players get good so let’s make the game harder. Is Ten Ball with tiny pockets the answer to improving interest in the game? I don’t think so.

Baseball, football, basketball, golf, bowling, and other successful sports have written into their rules, regular and predictable opportunities for players/teams to participate. This makes for viable competition and result in popular successful sports. Pool needs to look inward at its structure and look for ways to do the same. The fix would send pool’s evolution in an entirely different direction. Evolution takes a long time and pool is light years away from being ready for prime time. If the “FATAL FLAW” was fixed, I think it is very possible that over time, one new game would emerge that would have the broad based appeal needed so that pool could join all the other successful sports.

u have to love pool/ respect the game of pool, to watch pool. its not appreciated for the talent as much as many sports. i think reality tv would be good for pool. and not any scripted crap.

crosseyedjoe
04-11-2011, 07:29 AM
That's true in theory, but how often does that come even semi-close to happening in reality? Maybe the 150 and out in 14.1 and that doesn't happen that often. And that is taken care of with the round robin format that is used often in straight pool tournaments. It is far more the norm in a 9 or 10 Ball race for both players to have sufficient chances to seize command.

And yes, two players can both play very well and one good or bad roll can decide the outcome. That's how most sporting events are decided when two players play equally well, it comes down to one or two little things, like sinking the 60 foot putt or holing out from the fairway, or the stroke in tennis that hits the net and leaks over, or the grounder right at the third baseman that hits the bag and scoots to the corner for a base clearing double instead of a double play, or the pass that's tipped at the line of scrimmage yet makes it to a different receiver for a touchdown. Very often in any sport where both sides play equal it will come down to something little or lucky. These things happen in all sports it's just that usually one side plays better than the other so the outcome is not affected, and this is true in pool too.

Go back to the original post's premise then think about each set of a match . . .

Maniac
04-11-2011, 08:43 AM
I am not thinking about ESPN or the pros. I am thinking about our sport.

I sited the worst case scenarios as a result of the structure of our games. If I compare the structure of all other successful INTERACTIVE sports to the structure of our games, I can see a stark difference. The issue exists even if each player gets 5 chances each game.

If a player pockets a ball, he is entitled to shoot again at another ball. In the meantime, the opponent cannot participate in any way. This is not a recipe for viable competition. There is not one INTERACTIVE sport with this structure. I can't come up with one.

I have often wondered if people instinctively sense an unfairness and subconsciously back away as a result.

My opinion is that you are over-thinking this whole "interactive" thing. Pool is a beautiful game because IT IS UNIQUE and NOT like other "interactive" sports. There is not one other sport with this structure (your words), thank God!!! We have a game played by more persons worldwide than any other game imaginable. I'm still trying to figure out why in the hell everybody's always wanting to "fix" it? Ain't a damn thing wrong with it.

And.....what the heck do YOU plan on doing for it???

Maniac

DogsPlayingPool
04-11-2011, 09:33 AM
Go back to the original post's premise then think about each set of a match . . .

I'm not sure what your point is here. The premise of the original post is this:

"Here is the “FATAL FLAW”: A player is entitled to play on offence and score without limit while an opponent sits idly without influence."

What I'm saying is this is theoretical more than it is reality. It VERY rarely happens, and certainly not enough that pool has lost its appeal because of it. Let me give you an analogy. The way baseball rules are written theoretically it is possible that a game will never end and neither team will ever win. I doubt baseball would have the following it does if this was its reputation. But it so rarely happens that a super long extra inning game is exciting rather than boring and actually adds to its appeal when it does happen. It gets talked about rather than becoming the downfall of the game. I think pool is similar. If a guy is getting close to running out a set with his opponent frozen in his chair the whole match, the crowd would flock to that table to witness history. On the rare occasions it does happen it is special and is something fans don't want to miss.

justadub
04-11-2011, 09:45 AM
Until this past year, the MOST SUCCESSFUL sport in the country (NFL, duh) decided it's overtime games as "sudden death". Meaning that if the score is tied at the end of regulation, the first team to score in overtime wins. Whether or not the other team had a chance to score as well. Winning the coin flip usually meant winning the game, as all the team had to do was drive the field far enough for their field goal kicker to make a reasonable kick from. And that's what teams would do, they wouldn't even try for the end zone.

This dynamic was in place for a very long time, and is only now being tweaked, and if I remember correctly, only for playoff games. So 16 regular season games can be ended with one team not having a chance to score. In the MOST POPULAR sport in the country.

NineballBEN
04-11-2011, 10:12 AM
I think it'll take a very charasmatic person with a love for the game to bring people back to it.Look at football in the U.S.A. very popular,but in every other country soccer is there football,and it just hasn't caught on here,and not for lack of trying.Pool needs an ambassador that everyone can get behind.

justnum
04-11-2011, 10:40 AM
I think it'll take a very charasmatic person with a love for the game to bring people back to it.Look at football in the U.S.A. very popular,but in every other country soccer is there football,and it just hasn't caught on here,and not for lack of trying.Pool needs an ambassador that everyone can get behind.

But who? Mike Sigel is a name most of the older players know and has a reputation well rooted in Hollywood and pool tournaments as well as pool promotions.

If there is an ambassador it has to be something advertisers can sell, somebody with a name, otherwise its just a sales guy with a pitch.

Kevin Trudeau could've been a great ambassador to pool and non-pool types. Mike Sigel is a great choice because of his popularity from being on the road and in Hollywood. Other than that the players are just players, maybe there are some exceptional players but none with the established history of Mike Sigel.

DogsPlayingPool
04-11-2011, 10:53 AM
I doubt an appealing personality will significantly help with where pool is right now. When Tiger came on the scene in golf he had a huge impact on the popularity of the game. He made more money for everyone, players included, because his presence led to a substantial increase in the PGA Tour's TV contract at renewal time. But keep in mind that golf was already doing very well, had significant mass appeal at the time and plenty of exposure including a major network TV deal plus it's own dedicated cable channel. And besides, the thing that Tiger really had going for him was not his personality, but his greatness. People are attracted to greatness. But in any event, even if the great one pool player came along, the game just doesn't have the exposure necessary for one person to have the huge impact Tiger did.

Think Bobby Fischer. There's a game that was largely ignored in the U.S. When he came along beating everyone, all chess got out of it was a temporary blip on the radar screen and not much more. It didn't last and never really had much of an impact on the game's mass appeal when looking back on it.

justnum
04-11-2011, 10:56 AM
The ambassador idea is worth running with, but what could they do that people aren't doing already?

Snapshot9
04-11-2011, 11:34 AM
People go to play or watch Pool because:

1) It is a cheap date in today's current conditions.
2) The allure of gambling, especially high-stakes gambling.
3) It can be a pretty social thing to do.

Pool has plenty of defense, it is just applied in turns at the table.

NineballBEN
04-11-2011, 06:14 PM
I was thinking more like some TV celebs,like Jordan playing golf(not that golf needed him),someone that can play at a decent speed and can re-introduce it to the masses.Just a few that come to mind: 1) Will Smith
2) Nickolas Cage
3) Danica Patrick
4) Jack Nicholson
5) Colin Ferrel
6) Samuel L. Jackson
.....ok. granted I'm just trying to put some names out there,I'm not a hollywood public relations expert or a spin doctor.Hope this kinda gets the old creative juices flowing!!:p

justnum
04-11-2011, 06:21 PM
Kevin Trudeau was the last ambassador, the only thing he had was money.

What is missing is a rich person that can burn through cash like KT because big risk is big reward. No one can take big risks like he did but I blame the economy for whittling down the few that can take the risk.

Paul Schofield
04-11-2011, 11:24 PM
If a picture is worth a thousand words, the picture below speaks volumes about the structure of pool’s popular games. His opponent is at the table scoring points. His predicament is unlike anything that exists in the sports world.

If he was a baseball player, he would be trying to throw strikes and trying to catch the ball.

If he was a basketball player, he would be trying and steal the ball and trying to block shots.

If he was a golfer, he would be playing and scoring,

If he was a football player, he would be trying to tackle players, and trying to strip and intercept the ball.

If he was a boxer, he would be blocking punches.

If he was a bowler, he would be rolling the ball and scoring.

If he was a swimmer, he would be in the pool swimming a 100 meters.

If he was a hockey player, he would be trying to block and steal the puck.

If he was a tennis player, he would be trying to smash or drop the ball.

If he was a fisherman, he would be fishing.

Look at each and every sport!

He is none of the above. He is a pool player, watching his opponent score point after point, while he sits in a chair and there is not a damn thing he can do about it. He is disconnected and disengaged. He waits for his chance. Please name for me a successful sport that has this structure.

nancewayne
04-12-2011, 06:08 AM
Way back when....in golf, you were allowed to leave your ball on the green IN THE WAY (stymied) of the opponents line to the hole~! Sometimes the shooter would have to chip his ball up and over the opponents toward the hole. F.Y.I.


True, no defense in golf. But no matter how many birdies and eagles you make or how many shots in a row you hit pure, your opponent is playing as well. He doesnt sit until you hit one in the bunker on the 18th hole. There is only one similarity between pool and golf. It is all about controling a little white ball. That is all.

Maniac
04-12-2011, 07:11 AM
Look at each and every sport!

He is none of the above. He is a pool player, watching his opponent score point after point, while he sits in a chair and there is not a damn thing he can do about it. He is disconnected and disengaged. He waits for his chance. Please name for me a successful sport that has this structure.

Okay Paul, I am going to name you a VERY SUCCESSFUL sport that has that structure. Listen closely, I'm getting tired of repeating it. That sport would be ....POOL!!! More people worldwide engage in this sport than ANY OTHER participation sport there is. I believe that qualifies it as a successful sport. Just because the world of pool is not rotating around the sun on the orbit YOU want it to does not make pool unsuccessful. Get over it for crying out loud. All the b*tching and no solutions. Even if you could come up with a solution the pool community would probably not accept it. But.....why fix it if it ain't really broke???

I'm going to pull a John Barton maneuver and say that this is the last post I am going to make on this thread. It's kinda like trying to reason with a 4-year-old why he can't have a some of candy 20 minutes before lunch time.

Good luck to you sir in your quest to change pool. It WILL change, as it has through the many generations of its existence, but the change as always be be slow and gradual.

Once again, pool in its current structure is a UNIQUE and worthy sport. I have nothing more to ask from it. It doesn't HAVE to have a "defensive" side to it.

Once again.....just my $.02 worth!!!

Maniac

duckie
04-12-2011, 07:11 AM
So, what, you want the guy to be shooting spit balls at the other player while shooting?

That is the point of pool. To punish you if you are not good enough to stay at the table. It is a tough game, not for the faint of heart. But it is this toughnest that makes it great. This truly reflects life....life ain't always fair.

Trying to compare pool to other types of games does pool a dis-service. Pool is pool and not like anything else.

Wags
04-12-2011, 07:49 AM
Okay Paul, I am going to name you a VERY SUCCESSFUL sport that has that structure. Listen closely, I'm getting tired of repeating it. That sport would be ....POOL!!! More people worldwide engage in this sport than ANY OTHER participation sport there is. I believe that qualifies it as a successful sport. Just because the world of pool is not rotating around the sun on the orbit YOU want it to does not make pool unsuccessful. Get over it for crying out loud. All the b*tching and no solutions. Even if you could come up with a solution the pool community would probably not accept it. But.....why fix it if it ain't really broke???

I'm going to pull a John Barton maneuver and say that this is the last post I am going to make on this thread. It's kinda like trying to reason with a 4-year-old why he can't have a some of candy 20 minutes before lunch time.

Good luck to you sir in your quest to change pool. It WILL change, as it has through the many generations of its existence, but the change as always be be slow and gradual.

Once again, pool in its current structure is a UNIQUE and worthy sport. I have nothing more to ask from it. It doesn't HAVE to have a "defensive" side to it.

Once again.....just my $.02 worth!!!

Maniac

I agree. 8-ball is the most played game in the world. Leagues are doing well, amateurs are doing well, pros not so good (they have trouble making a living out of it, which isn't neccessarily pool's fault). I still can't figure out why pros aren't playing the game the whole world relates to.

nancewayne
04-12-2011, 08:23 AM
Wasn't the IPT (International Pool Tour) successful? I know the $$$ ultimately screwed it up, BUT the interest WAS there and IT WAS 8-BALL !!! The IPT was talked about constantly in the pool halls and leagues and MANY amateur players followed it all the way to its' demise. The Pros are still playing 8-ball in some of the biggest tournaments.
F.Y.I.


Q[UOTE=Wags;2959363]I agree. 8-ball is the most played game in the world. Leagues are doing well, amateurs are doing well, pros not so good (they have trouble making a living out of it, which isn't neccessarily pool's fault). I still can't figure out why pros aren't playing the game the whole world relates to.[/QUOTE]

Paul Schofield
04-12-2011, 10:18 AM
Wasn't the IPT (International Pool Tour) successful? I know the $$$ ultimately screwed it up, BUT the interest WAS there and IT WAS 8-BALL !!! The IPT was talked about constantly in the pool halls and leagues and MANY amateur players followed it all the way to its' demise. The Pros are still playing 8-ball in some of the biggest tournaments.

Was there interest outside the pool community? Did it expand our demographic and get more people to play pool?

DogsPlayingPool
04-12-2011, 10:23 AM
Sound like this is heading in the direction of some type of 2 cue ball game where both players are at the table at the same time. I can't wait to hear it.

Paul Schofield
04-12-2011, 08:53 PM
It doesn't HAVE to have a "defensive" side to it.

Once again.....just my $.02 worth!!!

Maniac

I agree. It does not have to have a defensive side to it. My post cited golf, bowling, swimming, and fishing as being perfectly fine.

12ozCurl
04-12-2011, 09:11 PM
Saftey = Defense?

Besides there is always the psychological warfare element. Look at "The Pearl" he is a damn fine shot but he often beats people before picking up the cue.

Paul Schofield
04-13-2011, 11:30 PM
I agree. 8-ball is the most played game in the world. I still can't figure out why pros aren't playing the game the whole world relates to.

Wags - I am with you. Eight-Ball is the best thing we have going right now because it is a game that everyone relates to. It is not the first choice of the pros and it is understandable. As a matter of fact, anyone who improves quickly, moves beyond it.

Grilled Cheese
04-14-2011, 12:22 AM
The reasons pool isn't popular on TV or as a spectator sport are numerous. I don't think the way it has played is one of the reasons.

I prefer that pool not be a sport where you are entitled to your turn at the table. Pool is the ultimate control game. It punishes mistakes more than anything else (except perhaps Chess). If you're sitting in the chair - it's YOUR fault. The responsibility is all yours.

Each player has the same opportunity at the lag to earn first control or to pass. Don't like getting run out? Tough. You win the lag and run the other guy out. Can't? Oh well, the other guy is better.

That's why alternate break sucks. Why give the opponent a chance? Want a chance? Earn it. Or wait until the guy at the table fails. That's the beauty of pool. No sympathy for missing, losing or anything like that. Weakness isn't subsidized by silly rules giving chances to everyone. That's new school thinking. Kind of like the crap we see these days where every kid gets an award or medal for participating. Modern society wants to see egalitarianism prevail in everything, even at the expense of competition. This destroys excellence. It hinders the best from reaching greater heights. Our civilization has always celebrated the ideal and the greatest. Pushing higher limits. Modern rules amount to handicapping and equalizing. Equality and sports don't mix.


I could care less about watching two pros each have a chance at the racks. I don't want to see that. I want to see them struggle against one another, and for each of them to try to maintain control and shut the other out. That's the beauty of pool. It's a celebration of excellence in being able to maintain table control and dominate the opponent. Alternate break kills all that. Pool then becomes like bowling where everyone gets to bowl. The interaction is lost. Darts is the same. Each player has their turn at the board. Pool is different, you interact with the results on the table. Different players play different safeties and have different abilities in escaping safeties.

I'd much rather watch a player run out a 7 pack on another than watch a 7-6 match that was on the hill. Double Hill can be exciting, but it's inferior to watching someone control the table and continue winning. That's excellence. 7-6 score most often means there were errors in the match. They were each letting one another back into it. Rarely is each exchange of control a result of control being taken away via successful safety battle. Some are errors, like misses or botched safeties. These mistakes degrade the overall match. Mistake free matches, or matches with the least errors are the greatest to watch. The ultimate match is the one where the only error was losing the LAG.


I remember watching a match between Alex Pagulayan and Rodney Morris, went something like this. Alex breaks and runs 6 racks. He messes up shape or there was a nasty cluster and plays safe. There's a safety battle - Rodney comes out on top and has control. Rodney then proceeds to win then break and run 5 after that equalizing. There was a safety battle in the last game, and Rodney (IIRC) came out on top winning the last game. Not flawless match. A couple mistakes.

But that was one of the better matches I've seen in this era of boring alternate break. Imagine that same race if it were alternate break?


BORING. zzzzzzz Like all alternate break matches. Whiners don't like winner breaks because they cry that the good breakers have an edge. Tough shit. Breaking is part of the game, and if someone is better at it - then too bad for you. You have every opportunity to learn a good break too. Any complaints about breaking is an attempt to handicap the game.

Anyway, the beauty of it is - sometimes the player in control dominates and they win 9-0 or 9-1. Or sometimes they put up a 6 pack or more and it all looks lost, but guess what? The opponent, if they earn the right at the table, has the same exact opportunity once at the table to return with their own 6 pack. And that's beautiful. If they can't and win only 1 rack, then their opponent runs the rest out - oh well. They deserve to lose and deserve to lose by that margin.

I love matches like that. Watching one player dominate and all looks lost for the guy in the chair, then the opponent gets in and strings racks together and wins or equalizes. What that does is, it makes watching the player in control more interesting - not more boring as others suggest because he/she is at the table alone for a long time. Because even though they might be on the 6th run out in a row, or on the 140th ball - they still suffer the pressure that one miss, just one miss or worse, one error whatever it may be, could result in the loss of the match. Imagine that, running racks and racks and everything is looking great - but total defeat is one mistake away. If the one player runs the other out completely without them having a chance - even better! Far better and more memorable is such a display of excellence than the excitement of a struggle made possible by repeated blunders. The best way to ensure victory is to never give the other guy a shot. In pool, no one is entitled to a shot. You have NO RIGHTS. You have to earn everything. People who think they are entitled to chances at the table are weak minded.


That's how straight pool was. Some players could run to 140 - a great run by any standard, and make a mistake and lose control and watch their opponent go 150 and out. Just like that. Sitting in the chair, watching helplessly and nearly hopelessly as your opponent buries you. Shot after shot. The chances of them missing is slim. Harsh punishment for missing.


Cold. Brutal. Unforgiving.


That's the beauty of pool.

duckie
04-14-2011, 08:11 AM
Wags - I am with you. Eight-Ball is the best thing we have going right now because it is a game that everyone relates to. It is not the first choice of the pros and it is understandable. As a matter of fact, anyone who improves quickly, moves beyond it.

To me, this is the FATAL FLAW in pool, thinking that 9 ball or even 1 pocket is harder or better than 8 ball.

If there was the money in 8 ball tourney's and more of them, the pros would play. For true pro's, the game does not matter. It's the money.

The FLAWS you are addressing are related to 9 ball, 10 ball.

There is way more going on in a good game of 8 ball than 9 ball. Traffic, clusters, blocked pockets, the other player moving your balls to bad spots, true safety battles.

BasementDweller
04-14-2011, 08:47 AM
Cold. Brutal. Unforgiving.


That's the beauty of pool.

Very well said. You summed it up for me. This is the sort of thinking Americans were known for not too long ago. Now, like you said - every kid gets a trophy.

"Hey cute little Timmy, I just wanted to pull you aside and let you know that you will not be getting a trophy this year because you really didn't contribute anything to our team. As a matter of fact, the only reason you were on the team was because I couldn't find anybody else to try out. So I couldn't justify cutting you. You ever thought about giving skateboarding a try?"

Sharkey
04-14-2011, 10:19 AM
Through out all of this, no one seems to really have any real idea or knowledge of whats actually going on in the pool world and why pool is where it is.

The IPT was not a hit because Kevin poured a bunch of money into it. It was a pyramid scam that he executed well. Praying off of amateur and semi pro players with the dream of a big payout (I guess we all kind of fit into that one) but that's what it was, and that is what Kevin does the best.

In my opinion, for pool to be successful on TV they need to change the format to a points earned event. Like most other sports where coverage jumps from table to table and no knows who is going to win until the end and anyone has the chance to make a come back.

Then there are the issues with ESPN and them making it ridiculously expensive to televise pool events while leaving some of the others that are much more difficult to produce much less.

Just a few of the issues that I have had experience with in the past.

hunger strike
04-14-2011, 11:05 AM
Through out all of this, no one seems to really have any real idea or knowledge of whats actually going on in the pool world and why pool is where it is.

The IPT was not a hit because Kevin poured a bunch of money into it. It was a pyramid scam that he executed well. Praying off of amateur and semi pro players with the dream of a big payout (I guess we all kind of fit into that one) but that's what it was, and that is what Kevin does the best.

In my opinion, for pool to be successful on TV they need to change the format to a points earned event. Like most other sports where coverage jumps from table to table and no knows who is going to win until the end and anyone has the chance to make a come back.

Then there are the issues with ESPN and them making it ridiculously expensive to televise pool events while leaving some of the others that are much more difficult to produce much less.

Just a few of the issues that I have had experience with in the past.

I believe I posted earlier in this thread so you can look that up. Now you need to be specific about "where pool is." Do you mean the ability of people to go find a place to play pool? Not a problem, bars everywhere. Making a living at it? I already addressed that regarding tv viewers wanting to see something impressive that they cannot do themselves, like run a table of ten ball on a ten footer. The popularity issue and why it is not a more popular pastime? Look up my post on the fat kid. Adding to my comments on the etiquette of gambling, I am hoping that you will all read the following then click on the link, because pool lends itself to a social game called nigysob and many people have a distaste for being "taught a lesson." Here goes: "This can be seen in classic form in poker games. White gets an unbeatable hand, such as four aces. At this point, if he is a NIGYSOB player, he is more interested in the fact that Black is completely at his mercy than he is in good poker or making money." Here is the link if you really want your eyes opened about how people work and why some have a distaste for what the title of this thread calls "pool's fatal flaw."
http://www.ericberne.com/games/games_people_play_NIGYSOB.htm

~enjoy

Paul Schofield
04-14-2011, 12:17 PM
if he is a NIGYSOB player, he is more interested in the fact that Black is completely at his mercy than he is in good poker or making money.http://www.ericberne.com/games/games_people_play_NIGYSOB.htm

~enjoy

How about a link to your post on the fat kid.

Yes, I am very aware of this. You are coming from a different angle but essentially, we are talking about the same thing. Now, what makes pool a game of NIGYSOB? I am pointing my finger squarely at it.

Is pool fatally flawed?...only to the people who don't and won't play it. That is the group I am interested in.

HawaiianEye
04-14-2011, 12:40 PM
Uh, golf has pretty broad based appeal, has major sponsorship, hugely successful tours, network TV plus it's own dedicated cable channel, and even the second tier & journeyman pros are millionaires.

In golf your competitor also doesn't play defense against you.

With all due respect, I don't think that's it.

Your competitor doesn't get to play defense against you, but he or she gets a play in the game. They DON'T sit on the sidelines holding their clubs, like pool players do when they don't ever get a turn at the table.

In order to more "even up" the game, the breaks must be alternated to ensure somebody doesn't get up and run a complete set without the other player having a turn at the table.

On numerous occasions, I've strung together 4-, 5-, and 6- rack runs when playing winner breaks. On a bar table I even ran 13 one time. In small local tournaments, with races to 3 or so in a set, it isn't uncommon for players to never get to the table in a set.

sebas
04-14-2011, 02:03 PM
Your competitor doesn't get to play defense against you, but he or she gets a play in the game. They DON'T sit on the sidelines holding their clubs, like pool players do when they don't ever get a turn at the table.

In order to more "even up" the game, the breaks must be alternated to ensure somebody doesn't get up and run a complete set without the other player having a turn at the table.

On numerous occasions, I've strung together 4-, 5-, and 6- rack runs when playing winner breaks. On a bar table I even ran 13 one time. In small local tournaments, with races to 3 or so in a set, it isn't uncommon for players to never get to the table in a set.

I have no business doing this but....Golf started out with people playing defense. The rules have changed. The original game allowed for you to be able to putt into you oponents line blocking him from putting directly at the hole. Just an FYI.:D

HawaiianEye
04-14-2011, 02:20 PM
Here is the “FATAL FLAW”: A player is entitled to play on offence and score without limit while an opponent sits idly without influence.

I remember back in 1972, or so, when "St. Louis Louie" Roberts came to my hometown and destroyed everyone and took all their money. He was playing so well that he spotted all of his opponents everything from the 7, to the 7, 8, 9 and the break and he still won.

When everyone quit, one old man, who had been staking some of the players, said, "If I could play pool, I'd play you."

Louie responded, "You don't have to know how to play pool to bet with me. You don't even need a stick. You give me the break and the ball in hand after the break and if I don't run the table, you win."

The old man took him up on the offer for $20 a game and Louie ran the racks way more often than not and he took quite a bit more of the guy's money before the guy surrendered.

Maybe something like this should be incorporated into the game. Alternate breaks and each guy get's ball in hand after his break. He gets a point for each ball he runs and maybe a five point bonus if he runs the table. After a predetermined set of so many games, the points are totaled and the person with the most points wins.

Paul Schofield
04-14-2011, 06:37 PM
Very well said. You summed it up for me. This is the sort of thinking Americans were known for not too long ago. Now, like you said - every kid gets a trophy.

"Hey cute little Timmy, I just wanted to pull you aside and let you know that you will not be getting a trophy this year because you really didn't contribute anything to our team. As a matter of fact, the only reason you were on the team was because I couldn't find anybody else to try out. So I couldn't justify cutting you. You ever thought about giving skateboarding a try?"

You are missing the point. This is not about self esteem. This is about engaging the players and improving competition and in the long run, upping participation.

Here is the shocker that few people know or understand. The closer play gets to even participation, the more of a lock it is for the better player to win. It is a huge advantage to the better player. But not surprisingly, the matches are much closer.

Here is something that I know. Players will gladly welcome more back and forth if their winning percentage improves (just look at One Pocket). Everything is give and take.

BasementDweller
04-14-2011, 07:46 PM
You are missing the point. This is not about self esteem. This is about engaging the players and improving competition and in the long run, upping participation.

Here is the shocker that few people know or understand. The closer play gets to even participation, the more of a lock it is for the better player to win. It is a huge advantage to the better player. But not surprisingly, the matches are much closer.

Here is something that I know. Players will gladly welcome more back and forth if their winning percentage improves (just look at One Pocket). Everything is give and take.

I really do understand what you are saying and you make as good of an argument as you possible can. I just really enjoy watching good nine-ball and ten-ball. A big part of these games that I personally enjoy is seeing people string racks together.

Having said that, I do understand that the alternating break format actually favors the stronger player but I don't really care about that. I have mentioned this several times in other threads but I'll say it again - I think the problem with nine-ball is the super short races. When pros find a way to reach the finals of a big tournament, only to finish it off with a race to 7 or something similar, that to me is a joke. They might as well, just flip a coin. If we are going to be stuck playing races to 5 or something similar than go ahead and play alternating breaks, but don't fool yourself into thinking this is somehow more exciting than seeing someone come back from being down 6-1 by running out the set! That is exciting to most people.

If you don't allow the stringing of racks then I believe all matches will eventually have the exact same feel. To me that's boring. Now if two people were playing a race to 21 or 25 and you wanted to switch the break after every 5 racks that would make it interesting, while still leaving open the possibility of stringing some racks together. Of course I know that will never happen.

HawaiianEye
04-14-2011, 10:16 PM
I really do understand what you are saying and you make as good of an argument as you possible can. I just really enjoy watching good nine-ball and ten-ball. A big part of these games that I personally enjoy is seeing people string racks together.

Having said that, I do understand that the alternating break format actually favors the stronger player but I don't really care about that. I have mentioned this several times in other threads but I'll say it again - I think the problem with nine-ball is the super short races. When pros find a way to reach the finals of a big tournament, only to finish it off with a race to 7 or something similar, that to me is a joke. They might as well, just flip a coin. If we are going to be stuck playing races to 5 or something similar than go ahead and play alternating breaks, but don't fool yourself into thinking this is somehow more exciting than seeing someone come back from being down 6-1 by running out the set! That is exciting to most people.

If you don't allow the stringing of racks then I believe all matches will eventually have the exact same feel. To me that's boring. Now if two people were playing a race to 21 or 25 and you wanted to switch the break after every 5 racks that would make it interesting, while still leaving open the possibility of stringing some racks together. Of course I know that will never happen.

I agree with most of what you said; however, I read an article (with statistics) stating that the person who breaks actually wins the game less often than the person who isn't breaking. It wasn't by more than a percent or two, but that is what the article stated and it used statistics from analyzing the matches.

I also think that races to 7 are nowhere near what it takes to separate the better players when they are playing at the professional level. A minimum of race to 11 should be the norm and race to 21 would be even better.

I enjoy watching people run rack after rack, but I also think the person sitting in the chair needs a chance to get to the table to show their skills.

hunger strike
04-15-2011, 08:22 AM
I remember back in 1972, or so, when "St. Louis Louie" Roberts came to my hometown and destroyed everyone and took all their money. He was playing so well that he spotted all of his opponents everything from the 7, to the 7, 8, 9 and the break and he still won.

When everyone quit, one old man, who had been staking some of the players, said, "If I could play pool, I'd play you."

Louie responded, "You don't have to know how to play pool to bet with me. You don't even need a stick. You give me the break and the ball in hand after the break and if I don't run the table, you win."

The old man took him up on the offer for $20 a game and Louie ran the racks way more often than not and he took quite a bit more of the guy's money before the guy surrendered.

Maybe something like this should be incorporated into the game. Alternate breaks and each guy get's ball in hand after his break. He gets a point for each ball he runs and maybe a five point bonus if he runs the table. After a predetermined set of so many games, the points are totaled and the person with the most points wins.

Well thought out.... I am going to try this out. I have several pool tables in my house, and my house rules say that unless you run the table on your first inning it is not a win; you still play the game out but it does not count toward your win total on the string unless you did it on your first inning. So you can play serious and for fun at the same time. Tell me that ain't a killer scoring idea. People LOVE to play at my house, the money players and the fun players.

Paul Schofield
04-15-2011, 09:42 AM
Admittedly, there is a unique excitement and interest when a player is on a high run. Like I have said before, "everything is give and take".

Do any of you do this on a Saturday afternoon in the Fall? I flip through the stations looking for a good football game. When I happen upon two noted colleges playing and the score is 44-14 in the third quarter, I move on to something else. I try to find a game that is within a touchdown and less than 5 minutes remaining. I flip until I find a good game.

If I walk into a tournament room and the first thing I see is an 8-1 score in a race to 11, I will probably move on to another match. I am looking for a hill-hill match or at least a close one.

Sacrificing increased viable competition for high-runs does not sound like a good trade off to me.

hunger strike
04-15-2011, 10:39 AM
Admittedly, there is a unique excitement and interest when a player is on a high run. Like I have said before, "everything is give and take".

Do any of you do this on a Saturday afternoon in the Fall? I flip through the stations looking for a good football game. When I happen upon two noted colleges playing and the score is 44-14 in the third quarter, I move on to something else. I try to find a game that is within a touchdown and less than 5 minutes remaining. I flip until I find a good game.

If I walk into a tournament room and the first thing I see is an 8-1 score in a race to 11, I will probably move on to another match. I am looking for a hill-hill match or at least a close one.

Sacrificing increased viable competition for high-runs does not sound like a good trade off to me.

Dude, are you really me? Perfect post, it's almost like I started another AZ identity in some kind of fugue state and posted this. Yes, I always do this. But here is the other side of the coin; I would watch Efren Reyes, Semih Sayginer, Phil Mickelson, Peyton Manning, or my other favorites play even in a losing game. We need personalities too. If we keep this thread going, this thread could potentially turn into a really great one for changing the fortunes of pool as a sport. Guys, remember Grady Seasons? Read my post about nigysob then tell me what percentage of kids would respond well to Seasons as the type opponent you'd want to play ANY game with. There are sooooooo many threads and posts on AZ about Earl and how he affects the game. I am a solution oriented person. Before a lot of tourneys begin we have the tradition of the Calcutta. Let's have a post-tourney tradition of rewarding like a "best performance" award and include a cash prize for an incentive.

Paul Schofield
04-15-2011, 04:51 PM
We need personalities too.

This happens in well established, viable sports. The sport comes first and then the colorful personalities emerge. We could have such a person in our midst or delivered to us on a golden platter. What game is he going to play and where is he going to play it? This is a tough question with no good answer. We have got a lot of unsettled business.

Paul Schofield
04-17-2011, 10:09 PM
OK, we know the fatal flaw sets the stage for the “high run” and it also renders an opponent sphinx-like. Everyone has their own opinion on how good this is for pool. I have to ask. If our structure is so good, should other sports take a lesson from us? Maybe they would do better?

It has other effects that I have not brought up. Players size up their opponent and decide when is the time to go ahead and win the game. A player who can run out, will estimate that a weaker player only becomes lethal at (let’s just say) the 7-ball. As a result, the stronger player can slough-off until the 6-ball. Then it becomes time to play and because of the structure (unlimited scoring, no defense, no regular and predictable participation), he can just go ahead and win the game and nothing can stop him. This promotes all kinds of sandbagging, unsportsmanlike manipulation, and confusion. If the structure was different it would force every player to put forth their best effort throughout the game.

Example: Imagine Basketball if when a team went to the line, as long as a player made a free throw shot, he could continue to shoot until he missed. Now imagine that one team is 30% at the line and another team is 95% at the line. The 95% team could do what ever they wanted throughout the game knowing that they would only have to go to the line and they could just go ahead and put the game out of reach. They would decide when it was time to win.

hunger strike
04-18-2011, 11:11 AM
I talk about this all the time. Congratulations to the national champions who won over the other team by one lucky score. But if we extended all games up to the point where the lesser team had almost no chance of winning, just to guarantee that the game is a true test of superiority, then nobody would watch. There has to be a balance. A three hour basketball game would yield the true winner but leave fans yawning. A ten minute game would be obvious luck. The best football prognosticators are barely over .500 in their predictions and it is the most popular sport to watch. You are on the right track here but there is a lot to balance. I don't like handicapping but without it you wouldn't see all this league pool that we have now. I think when we agreed about the presence of NIGYSOB in the pool scene we were really on the verge of progress. We need to find a way to purge the "gotcha" mentality so that we can get people wanting to play pool outside of just bar table leagues. Have you checked out the game pool300? I just learned of that.....

duckie
04-18-2011, 11:34 AM
Guess you don't watch much motorsports. There are alot of times when a driver or riders decides its time to check out and they're gone.

They decided when it was time to win.

Speaking of motorsports, this so called fatal flaw in pool remains me way back when Ford's GT40's were kicking Ferrai's ass. They only way Ferrai ended up beating the GT40's was to convice the governing body to make the motor size illegal. That would be the 427.

This type of handicapping is always happening in motorsports. Someone works hard, totally within the rules until those that can not measure up complain and then the handicapps are handed out. Restrictor plate racing comes to mind, and don't tell me the plates are for safety.

A true fan of a sport wants to see the best, no matter who it is whereas those that are fans of the players in the sport just want to see "their" player or team win. Big difference.

I actually saw the fatal flaw recently.....it was 10 ball on a 3 1/2x7 table. That was boring....and not at all a true overall test of skill.

hunger strike
04-18-2011, 11:56 AM
Guess you don't watch much motorsports. There are alot of times when a driver or riders decides its time to check out and they're gone.

They decided when it was time to win.

Speaking of motorsports, this so called fatal flaw in pool remains me way back when Ford's GT40's were kicking Ferrai's ass. They only way Ferrai ended up beating the GT40's was to convice the governing body to make the motor size illegal. That would be the 427.

This type of handicapping is always happening in motorsports. Someone works hard, totally within the rules until those that can not measure up complain and then the handicapps are handed out. Restrictor plate racing comes to mind, and don't tell me the plates are for safety.

A true fan of a sport wants to see the best, no matter who it is whereas those that are fans of the players in the sport just want to see "their" player or team win. Big difference.

I actually saw the fatal flaw recently.....it was 10 ball on a 3 1/2x7 table. That was boring....and not at all a true overall test of skill.

~Ding dang ol' Nascar (wurble durble) buncha rollin' advertisin signs need more ads on (dag nab)truck track add more cars slow down (garble farble) slow to read the ads (gurgle slurgle) restrictor plate let ya read ads (jibber jabber) unless ya sign yer name with a "x" ding dangit big ol' traffic jam to sell (freggin' fraggin') BC powders (lord 'a mercy.) Translation: Nascar is a giant circling billboard, slowed down by restrictor plates so's y'all can read 'em. Wanna make Nascar safer? If you add 3 more cars to the track then it's just one long continuous billboard without the illusion of racing. Gimme dirt track over that all day long..... multiple heats, not a traffic jam

Paul Schofield
04-18-2011, 12:01 PM
Guess you don't watch much motorsports. There are alot of times when a driver or riders decides its time to check out and they're gone.

Motor sports is very INTERACTIVE. Your analogy does not apply. I am talking about the completely disengaged opponent in pool who does not even need to be there. He could be in the restroom or he could be selling hot dogs to the gallery.

Paul Schofield
04-18-2011, 07:02 PM
The best way to ensure victory is to never give the other guy a shot. In pool, no one is entitled to a shot. You have NO RIGHTS. You have to earn everything. People who think they are entitled to chances at the table are weak minded.

That's how straight pool was. Some players could run to 140 - a great run by any standard, and make a mistake and lose control and watch their opponent go 150 and out. Just like that. Sitting in the chair, watching helplessly and nearly hopelessly as your opponent buries you. Shot after shot. The chances of them missing is slim. Harsh punishment for missing.

Cold. Brutal. Unforgiving.

That's the beauty of pool.

Where is Straight Pool today? Why is it gone? Why 150 years of game jumping? I don't see the beauty you describe.

Island Drive
04-18-2011, 07:39 PM
The reasons pool isn't popular on TV or as a spectator sport are numerous. I don't think the way it has played is one of the reasons.

I prefer that pool not be a sport where you are entitled to your turn at the table. Pool is the ultimate control game. It punishes mistakes more than anything else (except perhaps Chess). If you're sitting in the chair - it's YOUR fault. The responsibility is all yours.

Each player has the same opportunity at the lag to earn first control or to pass. Don't like getting run out? Tough. You win the lag and run the other guy out. Can't? Oh well, the other guy is better.

That's why alternate break sucks. Why give the opponent a chance? Want a chance? Earn it. Or wait until the guy at the table fails. That's the beauty of pool. No sympathy for missing, losing or anything like that. Weakness isn't subsidized by silly rules giving chances to everyone. That's new school thinking. Kind of like the crap we see these days where every kid gets an award or medal for participating. Modern society wants to see egalitarianism prevail in everything, even at the expense of competition. This destroys excellence. It hinders the best from reaching greater heights. Our civilization has always celebrated the ideal and the greatest. Pushing higher limits. Modern rules amount to handicapping and equalizing. Equality and sports don't mix.


I could care less about watching two pros each have a chance at the racks. I don't want to see that. I want to see them struggle against one another, and for each of them to try to maintain control and shut the other out. That's the beauty of pool. It's a celebration of excellence in being able to maintain table control and dominate the opponent. Alternate break kills all that. Pool then becomes like bowling where everyone gets to bowl. The interaction is lost. Darts is the same. Each player has their turn at the board. Pool is different, you interact with the results on the table. Different players play different safeties and have different abilities in escaping safeties.

I'd much rather watch a player run out a 7 pack on another than watch a 7-6 match that was on the hill. Double Hill can be exciting, but it's inferior to watching someone control the table and continue winning. That's excellence. 7-6 score most often means there were errors in the match. They were each letting one another back into it. Rarely is each exchange of control a result of control being taken away via successful safety battle. Some are errors, like misses or botched safeties. These mistakes degrade the overall match. Mistake free matches, or matches with the least errors are the greatest to watch. The ultimate match is the one where the only error was losing the LAG.


I remember watching a match between Alex Pagulayan and Rodney Morris, went something like this. Alex breaks and runs 6 racks. He messes up shape or there was a nasty cluster and plays safe. There's a safety battle - Rodney comes out on top and has control. Rodney then proceeds to win then break and run 5 after that equalizing. There was a safety battle in the last game, and Rodney (IIRC) came out on top winning the last game. Not flawless match. A couple mistakes.

But that was one of the better matches I've seen in this era of boring alternate break. Imagine that same race if it were alternate break?


BORING. zzzzzzz Like all alternate break matches. Whiners don't like winner breaks because they cry that the good breakers have an edge. Tough shit. Breaking is part of the game, and if someone is better at it - then too bad for you. You have every opportunity to learn a good break too. Any complaints about breaking is an attempt to handicap the game.

Anyway, the beauty of it is - sometimes the player in control dominates and they win 9-0 or 9-1. Or sometimes they put up a 6 pack or more and it all looks lost, but guess what? The opponent, if they earn the right at the table, has the same exact opportunity once at the table to return with their own 6 pack. And that's beautiful. If they can't and win only 1 rack, then their opponent runs the rest out - oh well. They deserve to lose and deserve to lose by that margin.

I love matches like that. Watching one player dominate and all looks lost for the guy in the chair, then the opponent gets in and strings racks together and wins or equalizes. What that does is, it makes watching the player in control more interesting - not more boring as others suggest because he/she is at the table alone for a long time. Because even though they might be on the 6th run out in a row, or on the 140th ball - they still suffer the pressure that one miss, just one miss or worse, one error whatever it may be, could result in the loss of the match. Imagine that, running racks and racks and everything is looking great - but total defeat is one mistake away. If the one player runs the other out completely without them having a chance - even better! Far better and more memorable is such a display of excellence than the excitement of a struggle made possible by repeated blunders. The best way to ensure victory is to never give the other guy a shot. In pool, no one is entitled to a shot. You have NO RIGHTS. You have to earn everything. People who think they are entitled to chances at the table are weak minded.


That's how straight pool was. Some players could run to 140 - a great run by any standard, and make a mistake and lose control and watch their opponent go 150 and out. Just like that. Sitting in the chair, watching helplessly and nearly hopelessly as your opponent buries you. Shot after shot. The chances of them missing is slim. Harsh punishment for missing.


Cold. Brutal. Unforgiving.


That's the beauty of pool.

What a great post, exactly how I perceive our game, sadly tho that's how the masses perceive us', and we must deal with them first. Until we're able to lead them too water, we'll stay where we're at and keep on drinkin' the same water till matters change. When that happens, we shouldn't educate them too quickly.:thumbup:

Grilled Cheese
04-18-2011, 09:37 PM
Where is Straight Pool today? Why is it gone? Why 150 years of game jumping? I don't see the beauty you describe.



What I describe isn't about straight pool. I'm not advocating for straight pool. However, straight pool was the best representative game of those values and ideas of competition in pool. 9 ball and 8 ball can be also, just not to the same extent because of their open breaks. The open break adds a factor of luck/randomness which gives the opponent a chance they didn't earn by force.


The open break is about as much "chance" as any player should want. The thread started with an idea that each player should be able to equally show their stuff on the table. I disagree. But that's just opinion. Games like 9 ball and 8 ball are not the kind of control games that straight pool is. If you lose control of the table in straight pool - it's because of your fault. Not some luck factor in an open break. Therefore, the open break gives chances. On the other hand, someone who has a great break and a great ability to adapt to a table or read the rack will control the match with a better break. But it's not 100%. Never was, never will be. But neither is straight pool. Difference is, one is more within a player's realm of control to maintain control.


In 9 ball, there are plenty exchanges of control in most matches. Yet, too many people whine that this isn't enough and that led to the rise of things like alternate break and more. To further increase both player's interaction and opportunity with the table.


I disagree. Why should the rules or format FORCE opportunity or interaction? It's almost like handicapping to some degree. Let the exchange of control, and the rise of opportunities occur on their own. Naturally, as a result of errors by the one in control, or superior play by the one trying to assume control of the table.

Paul Schofield
04-19-2011, 07:32 PM
Why should the rules or format FORCE opportunity or interaction?

Let me be clear. This is about making new players and keeping them interested. Golf and bowling make life long enthusiasts out of a large percentage of their participants. We do not have the same success. We lose way to many of our players.

I do not buy in to the notion that there is just too much other fun stuff to do. If pool cannot hold peoples attention, then it needs to be made more fun. I also do not agree that we are just not promoting enough.

I am taking a novel approach and looking inward and questioning the structure of our game.

Paul Schofield
05-01-2011, 05:47 PM
I am reminded that bar-pool is successful with its 500,000+ bar league members.

The world of bar-tables and the world of regulation-tables are two different universes. This thread is about regulation-table pool. I am NOT talking about bar-pool. A full volume could be written about how little these two universes overlap and how dissimilar they really are. I will leave that alone. Bar-table players do not venture into the regulation-table universe. Just the opposite, the regulation-table players DO venture into the bar-table universe.

Bar pool is a highly skilled and very popular amusement. Like video games and old pinball games in bars, the structure for bar-pool fits right in. It is just fine. For regulation-table pool and its games, in order for it to be considered a legitimate sport, the structure needs to be different. In order for it to have a chance, it needs to be somewhat similar to other legitimate successful sports.

IMO, bar-pool could never be considered a sport.

Island Drive
05-01-2011, 06:23 PM
Paul, you've been fishin' now for quite some time, you seem bored or are you after the catch? Feels like your somewhat bored with the pool grind...............

Spider1
05-01-2011, 07:08 PM
Bar pool is like "video games" and is not a sport, and 8-ball is for scrubs and newbies.


Wow, you're on a roll.

Paul Schofield
05-01-2011, 07:37 PM
and 8-ball is for scrubs and newbies.

I disagree.

ironman
05-01-2011, 08:18 PM
I am saying that every effort should be made to guarantee opportunities at the table. The more often both players can be brought back to the table in a way that makes sense, the more viable and entertaining the competition will be. This will also mean that matches will be much closer and the better player will actually win more often. This makes the game more palatable to everyone.

I am saying that there is not enough back and forth and no, I do not think that players get their chances. This is why we keep jumping to new games.

Well they tried ball in hand if no ball is pocketed. haven't hear much of that lately. personally, I like it!!

Spider1
05-01-2011, 09:56 PM
I disagree.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=2962548#post2962548'

"Eight-Ball is the best thing we have going right now because it is a game that everyone relates to. It is not the first choice of the pros and it is understandable. As a matter of fact, anyone who improves quickly, moves beyond it."

Paul Schofield
05-01-2011, 11:01 PM
Well they tried ball in hand if no ball is pocketed. haven't hear much of that lately. personally, I like it!!

Is this a part of Grady Mathews rules for Nine-Ball? If no ball is pocketed, the next player is at the table whether he gets ball in hand or not. I am not clear on how this is related to the topic.

fd_colorado
05-02-2011, 07:44 AM
hmm, good point. since you compare to other sports...what about a pure offense vs defense situation.

Where one player MUST play defensive shots (safeties) while the other attempts to make a good hit off of their safety. I should probably copyright this before putting it out there because the more i think of it, the better it sounds.

Player A Breaks...the player on offense is the breaker (trying to pocket as many balls as he can and eliminate easy defensive play.

Immediately after the break, the defensive player takes his safety shot. The offensive player then attempts to make a good hit on the lowest # ball on the table.

Good hit = +1 point for player A
Bad hit = +1 point for player B
Pocketing the ball = +2 points for player A.

Rinse and repeat. There are a ton of opportunities to take this idea to the next level, i.e. it would force people to get better at safety plays.
It eliminates the "running" of balls.
Every shot is the other player.
Banking and kicking are renewed and not just for bank pool.

Thoughts?

Carl

Sounds like Einstein Nine, aka One Pocket Nine

http://einstein-nine.com/

JoeyA
05-02-2011, 08:35 AM
Just saw this thread and don't have time to read it all but it could be interesting to see each player come to the table and an inning would consist of:

ONE BREAK
ONE STRAIGHT IN SHOT FROM WHERE THE CUE BALL LIES.
ONE JUMP SHOT FROM WHERE THE CUE BALL LIES.
ONE CROSS BANK FROM WHERE THE CUE BALL LIES.
ONE BANK SHOT FROM WHERE THE CUE BALL LIES.
ONE KICK IN FROM WHERE THE CUE BALL LIES.
ONE KICK/BANK FROM WHERE THE CUE BALL LIES.

Each player has seven attempts. On kicks and banks, each additional rail accounts for one additional point. Each ball jumped is worth one point as well.

First player to a hundred points wins.

Just some quick thoughts off the top of my head.

Maniac
05-02-2011, 08:57 AM
Just some quick thoughts off the top of my head.

And.....NO blue font ;)! Welcome back Joey :thumbup:!!!!!

Just messin' with ya', bud :D!!!

Maniac

deanoc
05-02-2011, 09:10 AM
Tiny pockets are killing the game,but aside from one pocket pool is no fun to watch for me.
I would not walk across the street to see 10 championship of the world

I once playedone pocket with a well known player from seatle in front of 2000 people at Reno in the practice room,while about 6 people watched the 9 ball championship in the ball room

This was over 20 years ago and I knew pool was doomed a long as 9 ball was concerned,at least for the spectator or sponsor

Paul Schofield
05-02-2011, 09:30 AM
Bar pool is like "video games" and is not a sport, and 8-ball is for scrubs and newbies.


Golf did not find its path to popularity and success through miniature golf. Miniature golf will never be considered a sport. I think that it is possible that if Eight-Ball was structured differently, it could have a universal appeal. (could)

fd_colorado
05-02-2011, 09:33 AM
I don't agree with the FF theory.

Soupy Logic

Think of the distribution of pool players as being represented by a soup ladle type curve.

At the top of the ladle's handle we have the bar leaguers (arguably the healthiest sector of our sport).

Following the handle down...

down...

down...

...we get to the dying middle of the player distribution. This is the group that everybody thinks is going to defrib itself...<insert your money-making idea here to save pool, apple pie and the American way>.

Anecdotal Evidence

The last 10 or so "pool halls/bars" that I have gone into (in CO, WI, WA & BC) I've thrown out 9 balls on the table and shot left-handed for 15 minutes without getting anyone wanting to play.

Further evidence (IMHO) that this sector is on life support is that in each of these establishments the employees behind the counter did not have any passion for the game: it was just a job.

The Pros

At the end of Ladle Rd. are our pros and other great players. Players destined to play within their little group forever. The top 5 or 10 elite players in our sport might be lucky enough to earn in a year what a top tour caddy can earn in a month.

Paradigm Shift

Sorry for being so cynical, but we need to think way outside the box.

I don't have any magical answers for this paradigm shift. But isn't rule #1 in the brave new world that the old rules don't apply?

Hint: Change the capabilities of the equipment, and the games will follow.



_

JoeyA
05-02-2011, 09:44 AM
And.....NO blue font ;)! Welcome back Joey :thumbup:!!!!!

Just messin' with ya', bud :D!!!

Maniac

I just bring out the large blue font when people start messin' wid me. :wink:

alstl
05-02-2011, 10:06 AM
The flaw in pool is not enough people are interested in watching it on television. Another problem is the unpredictable length of the matches which makes it hard to schedule.

duckie
05-02-2011, 10:47 AM
Maybe a new type of game format is needed instead of messing with whats current.

Something thats between tricks shots and running balls at the same time showing that there is creativity in shot making, which is really what is missing. The game would be point based with a set limit of time for each player to make as many points as necessary. Whoever is ahead in points at the end of the time limit is the winner

My suggestion would be called Bank, Carom, or Combo. As the name implies, only banks, caroms or combos are consider valid shots.

Points are award based on the degree of difficulity of the shot. Such as a one rail bank is 1 point, two rails would be 2 and so on.

2 ball combo would be 2 points, 3 ball would be 3 points and so on.

Then there are points for combination of shots like a carom, combo where the total points for the shot would be based on the point value of the carom and combo added together.

Say each player has a total time of 30 minutes to make x amount of points.

Anyway, just a general idea for something new that also brings some shots to the public awareness you would never see or rarely anyway in pro play.

Spider1
05-02-2011, 11:43 AM
Golf did not find its path to popularity and success through miniature golf. Miniature golf will never be considered a sport.

"golf : miniature golf" is not even remotely comparable to "pool on a 9 foot : bar pool". You've got to be joking.


A better comparison would be golf course with 18 holes vs golf course with 9 holes. People still enjoy both.

Paul Schofield
05-02-2011, 12:02 PM
"golf : miniature golf" is not even remotely comparable to "pool on a 9 foot : bar pool". You've got to be joking.


A better comparison would be golf course with 18 holes vs golf course with 9 holes. People still enjoy both.

I disagree. Your comparison of an 18 hole golf course to a 9 hole course is closer to comparing a 18 table pool room to a 9 table pool room, both having all different size tables. The only point I am really making is that these two entities of pool exist in two different worlds. Regulation-table pool has a shot of making the game into a sport. Bar-pool does not. Bar-pool is a highly skilled and popular bar-room amusement. Put your quarters in and play.

Cameron Smith
05-02-2011, 12:32 PM
Pool didn't lose it's popularity because it suddenly became passe. The issues with pools popularity, as with anything, are far more complicated than that. You can't expect to change one or two things and make something popular over night. Even if we came up with a winning formula, gains would be projected for 5-10 years down the road.

Poker and the UFC may seem like they were overnight sensations, but it only appears that way to the general public. Afficianados watched they're favorite past times/passions/whatevers build slowly.

If you study a bit of billiards history, you'll find that prior to the 19th century turns were one shot opportunities. In other words, whether you score or not your opponent shoots the next shot. Being able to string endless shots together is what made the game something that could be defined as a 'sport'. The amount of skill involved in keeping an endless run going is astronomical. Whereas the ability to make tough shots, well lets just say that plenty of amateurs are just as good as the pros. But they can't control the cue ball consistently off it.

The ability to shoot till you miss is the defining feature of Pool/snooker/billiards. Take that away and you have just another parlor game.

Finally as I've mentioned many times before, these legendary runs are legendary for a reason. They don't happen often. It's very rare that a player does not recieve equal opportunity to participate and even rarer that he or she doesn't lose because of poor shot, no matter how difficult it was.

During some of the World Pool Championships run by Matchroom sport prior to 2005, the pockets were so easy and players were running so many racks. In a situation which involved the very best players in the world on easy pockets someone SHOULD have run out an entire set. But no one did as far as I can recall. And if it happened it was only once. (I believe Steve Knight ran out a 5 game set in the group stages, but I'm referring to races to 9 or better).