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AtLarge
03-29-2011, 05:33 PM
It might be nice to have one thread where we could exchange tips about aiming with CTE -- things we have learned that might help someone else learn more easily or quickly.

I ask that this thread be limited to talking about Stan Shuffett's version of CTE -- not earlier versions or someone's hybridization.

I also plea that everyone leave all contentious debate out of this thread. Let's just accept that "it works" in some fashion, whether that is with mechanical precision or through conscious or unconscious user adjustments. Some people are over-the-top advocates, some think it's an absurd way to try to hit a pool shot, and others are somewhere in between -- let's just accept all that. I'll also be disappointed if anyone tries to use this thread as a platform for ill-mannered attempts at humor, such as "Tip: use ghost-ball aiming instead."

I hope that we all have reached a stage now where a thread like this is possible. I'll start it out.

Tip -- Buy Stan's DVD.
I have been amazed at how many people seem to be sincerely interested in CTE, and in aiming methods more generally, but have not spent a measly $45 (and that is pretty measly in this day and age) to hear and see what Stan presents first hand. The on-line outlines, summaries, and discussion can be useful, but they don't adequately substitute for the DVD.

I was a student of CTE long before the DVD came out, and what was available was pretty poor. A lot of people who tried to learn it from Hal Houle were left mystified or deemed it geometrically flawed and unworkable. Hal's instructions, at least to many people, were simply: sight center to edge, offset the stick inside or outside depending on thickness of cut needed, and pivot to center. That simple prescription is full of holes, and many of us were unable to add enough meat to the bones to make it into a usable method.

Stan was one of those students who went to see Hal. But Stan was intrigued enough to stick with it until he was able to give it some structure and make it a much more usable method. Stan's specification of secondary sighting lines and specific pivot lengths (for manual CTE) elevates the method to something that is now useful to many more people.

The DVD has high production qualities (for a pool DVD). Some viewers wish he had explained some things more fully or differently, but, overall, it is reasonably well done. I urge those interested in CTE, or aiming methods more generally, to buy it.

Tip -- Use Streamlined Shot "Call-Outs"
Stan's method essentially presents the player with a menu of ways to align oneself -- or determine the final cue-stick alignment -- for a shot. Some students have expressed confusion, difficulty, or dismay in trying to keep the options straight as the shots present themselves during a game or match. When I use the method, I find it helpful to streamline that menu in my mind, in the following ways.

The center-to-edge line always goes to the outside (side farther from the pocket) of the object ball, and I doubt that anyone has any difficulty in immediately seeing that. Stan then uses A, B, and C for the secondary alignment lines, and left and right for the pivots. My mental way of implementing this makes two changes in terminology:

Instead of thinking of A, B, or C, I find it easier in actual play to just think "1" or "2," where this means 1 or 2 quarters of the OB. So "A" and "C" are both "1" (one quarter) and "B" is "2" (two quarters). Since the side for the CTEL is instantly obvious on a shot, I just think whether to align for 1 vs. 2 quarters for the secondary alignment (forget the very thin cuts for now).

Instead of thinking "left" or "right" for the 1/2-tip offset for the pivot, which have different effects depending on the direction of the cut, I just think "out" or "in," where "out" means outside and "in" means inside.

So as I approach a shot, I call out (to myself) either "1-out," or "1-in," or "2-out," or "2-in" depending on the shot.

This can be done very quickly. In fact, I find that I can make an alignment-menu selection and align myself for the shot, including pivot, almost as quickly as I can go around the table one-stroking using only "feel." And the process can certainly be done at least as quickly as ghost-ball or contact-point-to-contact-point aiming. For precision, it is probably good to not do it that quickly, but I just mention this because of objections sometimes made about CTE possibly disrupting one's "flow" or pace of play.

So ............ as I move to each shot, I just call out to myself one of:
1-out
1-in
2-out
2-in

and then go into aligning my body for CTEL plus the call-out. I hope someone finds this tip useful. If you need any further clarification, please just ask.

Now -- how about some tips from other users.

DrGonzo
03-29-2011, 05:48 PM
For the love of God, I hope this thread stays within the confines of its purpose. I bought Stan's dvd and am still struggling with the pivot. The only problem with looking for answers is that I end up having to wade through a dozen pages of arguements for every page or so of helpful posts. I would love to see a condensed post of only helpful information. Let's please not argue about merits of this system. If you don't agree with it or dont want to learn/use it, just leave it alone...:grin:

CocoboloCowboy
03-29-2011, 05:58 PM
TIP: Practice, Practice, Practice, as leaning CTE like most thing in life takes time.

Neil
03-29-2011, 06:02 PM
.............

pablocruz
03-29-2011, 06:10 PM
For the love of God, I hope this thread stays within the confines of its purpose. I bought Stan's dvd and am still struggling with the pivot. The only problem with looking for answers is that I end up having to wade through a dozen pages of arguements for every page or so of helpful posts. I would love to see a condensed post of only helpful information. Let's please not argue about merits of this system. If you don't agree with it or dont want to learn/use it, just leave it alone...:grin:

Pivot from the object ball plane rather than the bridge!!

JE54
03-29-2011, 06:24 PM
My problem is determining which is the correct pivot some of the time. I'm going to try 1 in, 2 in etc. and see if that helps.

AtLarge
03-29-2011, 06:36 PM
You already mentioned to buy the DVD. Here's another tip- if you don't understand it, give Stan a call like he stated to do. Then you have known good info.

Good point, Neil. But I hope we also get some tips from people who know the method well and might add something that Stan would not or say it a bit differently.

AtLarge
03-29-2011, 06:43 PM
Pivot from the object ball plane rather than the bridge!!

Well, I think Stan is teaching pivoting from the bridge with manual CTE, so that would be a different technique, or perhaps an alternative. Is this from Spidey CTE?

Even if it isn't what's on the DVD, I'd still be interested if you can explain it clearly.

Redneck Jim
03-29-2011, 07:00 PM
Some tips that help me:

A general tip is to learn the basic manual pivot cte well, before tackling the pro one part.

1 On the DVD, stan refers to "Aim Points" of A, B, & C. This causes some confusion for some of us. The first week,
I assumed that Aim Points were to aim at. Sounds logical, but it's not the case.
I now think of A, B, & C as Reference Points or Secondary Alignment Points.

The DVD contains a lot of shots explained and demonstrated using all the alignment visuals and pivot points.
When I started out with them, some would go and others didn't. In my case, I decided to kind of simplify it
until I "got it" figured out.

2 To make sure I had my visuals, pivot, and stroke correct, I set up and practiced the following shot.
- Set the object ball in the middle of the table (20 on the table grid)
- set the cue ball at number 18 on the table grid.
The objective now is to shoot the object ball into the short rail (number 24)
and come straight back and hit the cue ball.
I used center to right edge of ob, left side of cue ball to A on the ob, with a half tip right pivot (cue tip starts right of center cue ball before the pivot).

Assuming your stroke is good, The result of shooting this shot will let you know if your visuals, bridge placement, & pivot are on the money.
Occasionally, I'm able to have the object ball come back and hit the cue ball head on, but I'm satisfied at this point to just get a hit of any kind.

Once you are having success with the shot above, then you can try some of the other shots, knowing that your fundamentals are ok.

This is the point I'm at right now myself. The main thing to remember is that this cte is the real deal.
It's taking me a bit longer to learn than I hoped, but I'm not the brightest bulb in the string.
I am making progress though, and there is no sound like the solid "thunk" of a well hit ball going into center pocket.

The most important tip I can give is to ignore any of the naysayers that are probably going to show up.
I mean, don't reply to them or give them any attention at all. In fact, feel free to add them to your ignore list (under User Cp at the top of this page).
If you can't control your urge to respond to them, do everyone else trying to learn CTE a favor, and reply to the naysayer by Private Message.

Just remember the title of this thread - "Tips for Students of CTE". If the post doesn't apply to it, just ignore it.

Good luck to everyone & I hope we can help each other. There are a lot of people on here that will be glad to help.
In fact, I've got help from some of them already, and appreciate thier willingness to assist me.

AtLarge
03-29-2011, 07:20 PM
Some tips that help me: ...

Good suggestions, Redneck. For your practice shot, you numbered the CB location as 20, also, so that must be a typo.

DrGonzo
03-29-2011, 07:20 PM
Did the people who use this system start by memorizing the table grid and practicing the exact shots from the video so you already know which way to pivot from the beginning of the shot?

AtLarge
03-29-2011, 07:38 PM
Did the people who use this system start by memorizing the table grid and practicing the exact shots from the video so you already know which way to pivot from the beginning of the shot?

No need to memorize the table grid. Here's a post that includes the grid and most of the shots from the DVD. This worksheet should be quite helpful in setting up shots and practicing how to acquire the correct visuals. Just print it out and take it to the table.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=2933145&postcount=560

eezbank
03-29-2011, 07:44 PM
Did the people who use this system start by memorizing the table grid and practicing the exact shots from the video so you already know which way to pivot from the beginning of the shot?

I used this drill to help memorize the pivots. I like to visualize a rail on cut shots. Maybe this will help someone else.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AYxE3BStE3CNGG3DHjG3EBfG3FBGo3GBPb3HBQI3IBYs1PX FV3QYsX3UYxE3Ubgt3VStE3VdEI3WNGG3WfpY3XHjG3XfIB3YB fG3YhMG3aBGo3aeqa3aBhJ3bBPb3beyi3cBQI3ceqa3dBYs3df oT3lYsX3laND@

Patrick Johnson
03-29-2011, 08:18 PM
I used this drill to help memorize the pivots. I like to visualize a rail on cut shots. Maybe this will help someone else.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AYxE3BStE3CNGG3DHjG3EBfG3FBGo3GBPb3HBQI3IBYs1PX FV3QYsX3UYxE3Ubgt3VStE3VdEI3WNGG3WfpY3XHjG3XfIB3YB fG3YhMG3aBGo3aeqa3aBhJ3bBPb3beyi3cBQI3ceqa3dBYs3df oT3lYsX3laND@
Looks like a great shooting drill in general. Think I'll steal it (and add some position play).

pj
chgo

Murdoch7627
03-29-2011, 08:20 PM
So far this thread is going great. I will repeat what has already been said.. If you have purchased the DVD and have questions, call Stan. He is happy to work/talk with you. This aiming system works but it does take practice to get it down correctly. Practice the exact shots on the DVD. Do not just toss the ball on the table and think you are learning. This does not work.

Regards to all,

Frank

Neil
03-29-2011, 08:29 PM
..................

Neil
03-29-2011, 08:34 PM
................

DrGonzo
03-29-2011, 08:51 PM
How does CTE work when using english. I don't remember this subject being discussed in the dvd in the CTE section. There was a short segment on english in the pro one section, but with the whole purpose of the CTE pivot to get you back to center cb, wouldn't adding english change the pivot and thus the aim point?

Redneck Jim
03-29-2011, 09:43 PM
Good suggestions, Redneck. For your practice shot, you numbered the CB location as 20, also, so that must be a typo.

Thanks for pointing that out. The cue ball should be at grid location 18.

I've edited my orig post ( #9 ), so hopefully no confusion.

Redneck Jim
03-29-2011, 10:00 PM
I think it would be clearer if you stated that you set your bridge hand so you were 1/2 tip right of center, and then pivoted to center. As you have it stated, you shot with right english.
What I should have stated was:

I used center to right edge of ob, left side of cue ball to A on the ob, with a half tip right pivot (cue tip starts right of center cue ball before the pivot).

Thanks for catching that & I'll make yet another correction to post #9.

As far as the bridge placement, I didn't really keep track of it. Sounds like something I should investigate more.

AtLarge
03-29-2011, 10:37 PM
If you are using 90/90, the shot with the 9 ball is fine. Using CTE, it should be 1/8 overlap.

Neil, it looks to me like the 7-, 8-, and 9-balls would all be 1/8 overlap, with pivoting from the inside (left) on the 8 and 9 and from the outside (right) on the 7.

The 6-ball might be borderline between 1/8 overlap with pivoting from the outside and "B" with pivoting from the inside.

The 5-ball would surely be a "B/inside."

Do you agree, or do you see it differently?

pablocruz
03-30-2011, 05:11 AM
Well, I think Stan is teaching pivoting from the bridge with manual CTE, so that would be a different technique, or perhaps an alternative. Is this from Spidey CTE?

Even if it isn't what's on the DVD, I'd still be interested if you can explain it clearly.

I wouldn't take Dave's information too lightly! Stan never mentions anything about pivoting from the bridge! He defines a pivot as a strict movement of one's shoulder, upper arm and lower arm acting as a single unit in pivoting a cue to center cue ball!! I don't interpret that as pivoting from the bridge! AtLarge, do you have the DVD?

DrGonzo
03-30-2011, 05:27 AM
If you are using 90/90, the shot with the 9 ball is fine. Using CTE, it should be 1/8 overlap.


Sorry for my ignorance, but are we shooting the numbered balls at the A ball in this drill and not using the cue ball? or is it some type of combination drill?

Neil
03-30-2011, 05:41 AM
..............

Neil
03-30-2011, 05:43 AM
................

SpiderWebComm
03-30-2011, 05:54 AM
I wouldn't take Dave's information too lightly! Stan never mentions anything about pivoting from the bridge! He defines a pivot as a strict movement of one's shoulder, upper arm and lower arm acting as a single unit in pivoting a cue to center cue ball!! I don't interpret that as pivoting from the bridge!

I just wanted to clarify that shot arc concept. The smaller the pivot, the less it matters. The DVD is specific to 1/2 tip pivots because very little can go wrong.

CTE as a system doesn't have a pre-configured "offset," if you would. Hal specifically said the offset didn't matter (and he's right); however, additional considerations need to be made if a player chooses to offset beyond 1/2 tip (say, a 1/2 ball).

So, when releasing a DVD and making this as objective as possible without fooling around with a lot of variables - Stan chose 1/2 tip pivots so a player could see results right away.

I know this thread is for DVD-content-only, so I'll be brief. Once your tip offset increases beyond 1/2 tip, the player cannot pivot straight from the bridge as they'd pivot to the incorrect center based on shot distances. That's where pivoting along the OB plane comes in to ensure you're getting to the correct center.

I made a detour this past Sunday to Walnutport, PA to see Hal. I was warned ahead of time that his "clarity" has slipped considerably since my last visit. When I sat by his bed, he was a little foggy. But as soon as I mentioned "the aiming police," "Pat Johnson," "Bob Jewett," and other members of the gang, Hal snapped into ninja mode. In fact, I'm not sure if I ever recall Hal being so cognizant of detail in our discussion! Unreal! Sunny was elated and couldn't believe it. I told her if he ever clouds up, just tell him that Patrick Johnson is knocking CTE on AZBilliards and watch what happens (nothing like poking the tiger through the cage). LOL! (Pat -- hopefully you see the humor in that and don't mind I totally used you to get Hal back into instruction-mode)

One of the questions I snuck in was, "Hal, when you were playing -- what was your bridge length and offset?"

He replied by saying his bridge length was VERY short (about 4-5" or so) and his offset was VERY small (smaller than 1/2 tip). His goal, he explained, was to minimize the chance of "losing the trajectory" to the target after getting to center. The true target, as he explained it, was hitting the exact center of the CB (this lead into a lengthy discussion on how to do that).

Now, I want to preface that comment with the fact that Hal comes from an era where 14.1 was the game of choice. Many of us are rotation players and playing with a bridge that short would break your game. Hal's consideration was minimal CB movement.

In conclusion, smaller offsets mitigate the need to worry about pivot arcs. If you offset 1/2 ball, like me, and pivot from the bridge--- you'll never make a ball. Once you get to 1/2 tip and within, you can. See? Stan eliminated a big variable :)

Dave

drpjr
03-30-2011, 07:35 AM
Spidey are you sure you know what your talking about ????

champ2107
03-30-2011, 07:38 AM
Spidey are you sure you know what your talking about ????

He does, He is a very advanced user of cte and capable of shooting a few versions of cte.

SpiderWebComm
03-30-2011, 07:44 AM
He does, He is a very advanced user of cte and capable of shooting a few versions of cte.

He was joking. That's Donny - we play all the time. He learned CTE when I did years ago.

drpjr
03-30-2011, 07:44 AM
Champ .....I was just pokin at Dave, he is a very good friend and and is Very knowledgeable about CTE and other systems. I was hoping to get a funny reaction from him.....

scottjen26
03-30-2011, 10:08 AM
Great thread...

I just started working with this 5 - 6 weeks ago. I actually played with some 90/90 and CTE concepts a few years ago, after speaking with Ron V and Spidey, it worked for some shots but I just couldn't make it work for normal routine shots.

Fast forward, after not playing for a year or so (taking a break, travel, busy, etc.) I started playing again, and right after found out about Stan's DVD. I watched it with anticipation and didn't get it - again. But this time, I reached out to a few forum members (Spidey, JoeyA, John B) and rewatched the DVD a few times. I didn't make sense of everything until I got to the table. And that's a key difference I think in all of these arguments, it doesn't really make sense, logically or mathematically, but once you see it at the table you realize it works!!

Like others, I was having a hard time figuring out when to use which sight line and pivot. Probably because it was not presented in a linear manner in the DVD (maybe intentionally). I quickly equated the A-B-C positions to "thick" or "middle" and the pivots to "inside" or "outside". I also devised the following drill, which really hit home for me:

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AOUC3BLjB2CIpA2DFvA3EClB4FAIB4GDCB4HGEB4IIpB4JL jC4KOdC4LRfC4MUhB4NYIB3QUDW3UOUC3UTNI3VLjB3VTNK2WI pA3WTNK4aAIB3aTNJ4gRfC3gTNK4iYIB3iTNJ3lUDW3lcpr@

I started out shooting object ball A with cueball 1 (which should be straight one or nearly so). I realized this was a thick aim (A in this case) and outside (right) pivot. And the same for the next shot or two, depending on exact placement. Then you reach a point where you need to use the inside (left) pivot, and that holds true for the next 4 shots or so. Then you'll see that the thick aligment no longer makes the ball, or does just barely, and you switch to the middle (B) alignment and opposite (outside, or right in this case) pivot. That works for a small degree angle of shots, then you are back to the more conventional inside or left pivot. And for me, that worked almost out to CB 12 or so, that's when I needed to use the 1/8 alignment.

For me, this cemented how the alignments and pivots worked and that they did progress in a linear manner (thick/outside, thick/inside, middle/outside, middle/inside, 1/8/outside, 1/8/inside). It's amazing how most shots are going to be obviously thick (A/C) or middle (B), and how most of the pivots are going to be inside, with the exception of almost straight shots and very small angles in between the A/C and B or B and 1/8 alignments. Most of the time I realize that if I'm cutting the ball to the left, my pivot will also be a left (inside) pivot, and vice-versa, and I realize pretty quickly to change that if I'm almost straight on the shot. It's those in between shots, which really only occupy a few degrees in the range of shots, that I'm trying to work on recognizing so I know when to try another alignment and trust what I'm seeing.

In addition to those few transitional type shots, I've been working on soldifying the consistency of my Pro One pivots and my accuracy with shots that are longer distances, since some adjustments are needed and you just have to be that much more precise with everything. At this point I would say 90% of the shots I'm missing are because I don't trust my alignment and steer the cue ball like I used to, am using english and don't adjust properly, or just make a bad stroke. I'm missing very few shots because of an improperly selected alignment, and after just a few weeks of working with this I couldn't be more pleased with the improvement in my overall shotmaking.

Scott


PS. It sure seems as if the transition points occur at or around 15 degrees, 30 degrees, and 45 degrees, although I'm still trying to verify if that's true. Also would make sense from a system perspective. I used the other Cuetable aiming version and it seems to match. Can anyone else verify this?

AtLarge
03-30-2011, 10:43 AM
I wouldn't take Dave's information too lightly! Stan never mentions anything about pivoting from the bridge! He defines a pivot as a strict movement of one's shoulder, upper arm and lower arm acting as a single unit in pivoting a cue to center cue ball!! I don't interpret that as pivoting from the bridge! AtLarge, do you have the DVD?

Yes, I own the DVD.

Based on the clarification from Dave Segal in post #26, I think we can agree that the pivot with a 1/2-tip offset for Stan's CTE (manual, on-the-table pivoting) can be from the bridge, not from farther back as when one offsets by 1/2 ball instead of 1/2 tip.

jwpretd
03-30-2011, 11:27 AM
1 On the DVD, stan refers to "Aim Points" of A, B, & C. This causes some confusion for some of us. The first week,
I assumed that Aim Points were to aim at. Sounds logical, but it's not the case.
I now think of A, B, & C as Reference Points or Secondary Alignment Points.


Yes! I've been harping on that for quite some time now. I've been calling them "alignment points", but I think your "reference points" idea is better. "Alignment points" could be taken as meaning "cue alignment".

Mikjary
03-30-2011, 11:40 AM
Yes! I've been harping on that for quite some time now. I've been calling them "alignment points", but I think your "reference points" idea is better. "Alignment points" could be taken as meaning "cue alignment".

Cha Ching! 'Reference points' is good. 'Aiming points' is bad. :) Deja Vu.

Best,
Mike

champ2107
03-30-2011, 12:04 PM
I will give a tip "pay close attention to what ever Mikjary posts in here" :thumbup:

3RAILKICK
03-30-2011, 04:09 PM
I just wanted to clarify that shot arc concept. The smaller the pivot, the less it matters. The DVD is specific to 1/2 tip pivots because very little can go wrong.

CTE as a system doesn't have a pre-configured "offset," if you would. Hal specifically said the offset didn't matter (and he's right); however, additional considerations need to be made if a player chooses to offset beyond 1/2 tip (say, a 1/2 ball).

So, when releasing a DVD and making this as objective as possible without fooling around with a lot of variables - Stan chose 1/2 tip pivots so a player could see results right away.

I know this thread is for DVD-content-only, so I'll be brief. Once your tip offset increases beyond 1/2 tip, the player cannot pivot straight from the bridge as they'd pivot to the incorrect center based on shot distances. That's where pivoting along the OB plane comes in to ensure you're getting to the correct center.

I made a detour this past Sunday to Walnutport, PA to see Hal. I was warned ahead of time that his "clarity" has slipped considerably since my last visit. When I sat by his bed, he was a little foggy. But as soon as I mentioned "the aiming police," "Pat Johnson," "Bob Jewett," and other members of the gang, Hal snapped into ninja mode. In fact, I'm not sure if I ever recall Hal being so cognizant of detail in our discussion! Unreal! Sunny was elated and couldn't believe it. I told her if he ever clouds up, just tell him that Patrick Johnson is knocking CTE on AZBilliards and watch what happens (nothing like poking the tiger through the cage). LOL! (Pat -- hopefully you see the humor in that and don't mind I totally used you to get Hal back into instruction-mode)

One of the questions I snuck in was, "Hal, when you were playing -- what was your bridge length and offset?"

He replied by saying his bridge length was VERY short (about 4-5" or so) and his offset was VERY small (smaller than 1/2 tip). His goal, he explained, was to minimize the chance of "losing the trajectory" to the target after getting to center. The true target, as he explained it, was hitting the exact center of the CB (this lead into a lengthy discussion on how to do that).

Now, I want to preface that comment with the fact that Hal comes from an era where 14.1 was the game of choice. Many of us are rotation players and playing with a bridge that short would break your game. Hal's consideration was minimal CB movement.

In conclusion, smaller offsets mitigate the need to worry about pivot arcs. If you offset 1/2 ball, like me, and pivot from the bridge--- you'll never make a ball. Once you get to 1/2 tip and within, you can. See? Stan eliminated a big variable :)

Dave

Dave-

Thanks for the Hal health update.

DrGonzo
03-30-2011, 04:11 PM
How does CTE work when using english. I don't remember this subject being discussed in the dvd in the CTE section. There was a short segment on english in the pro one section, but with the whole purpose of the CTE pivot to get you back to center cb, wouldn't adding english change the pivot and thus the aim point?

This still confuses me, and I think a lot of other people, who are new to CTE.

scottjen26
03-31-2011, 10:53 AM
Surprisingly it doesn't. If you apply back hand english for shots, once you find the correct alignment you can move your tip position etc. to apply english and be fine, assuming you know your cue's pivot point etc. To me, the BHE pivot is different than the CTE pivot - for CTE, I'm moving the tip and my alignment, for BHE I'm just swiveling the cue while keeping my alignment steady. Almost looks like you are delivering a glancing blow to the cue ball. I never used to use BHE, still don't that much, but when I do it's solid.

For me at least, BHE only works when hitting the ball a certain distance or speed, if I'm hitting the ball slower then over a certain distance than I still adjust for english for feel. But that's just me, and the way I've always done it over the years, so it's easy to revert back to that. In that case, I will still use CTE/Pro One to confirm my initial aim and then make tiny adjustments from there.

If you watch Bustamante shoot (and I have in person), he uses some sort of CTE but is different than most where he always lines up lower left on the cue ball and pivots left to right, Dave (Spiderwebcomm) has mentioned doing something similar. However, Busta changes direction on the fly on his last stroke, and seems to be able to come through the cue ball with left, right, or pretty much anything he wants all from the same starting position. So with practice I think it is possible to use the system and adjust for english fairly seamlessly.

For me, one extra advantage of this is that I'm more focused on center ball, much more so than I used to be (since I had a Filipino-style game without the Filipino talent...), and I find using a slight amount of english or no english at all (with no adjustment needed) is getting the job done more consistently and without the spikes I used to have in my game when my feel would be off, or I wouldn't play consistently, etc.

Good luck, happy to help with more questions as I'm sure several others more versed in this than me are as well.
Scott

daphish1
03-31-2011, 11:23 AM
I'm late to the party, but just purchased Stan's dvd last week.

Right now, I'm strictly focusing on using manual CTE at what point should I consider transitioning over to using the PRO1 stuff?

Had to watch the video a couple times (just the beginning CTE stuff) and read a couple good posts that kinda gave me the "aha" moment where it started to make sense.

I can see it'll take a little bit more practice to actually get which way I should pivot on any given shot. At least at this time, if I set up for a left pivot and get down on the shot and it doesn't "feel" correct then I'll get back up and reset for a right pivot. Guess this is the only way to really figure out what works or not (at least for myself).

scottjen26
03-31-2011, 12:59 PM
I had that same "aha" moment after working with it for a session or two and getting some questions answered as well.

I started messing with the Pro One pivots on my third practice session I think, and just took to them better than I anticipated. I shot the reference shots 1 and 2 10 times each, you could do more depending on playing ability, and I keep shooting 5 in each side every time I play. I also shoot reference shots 3 and 4 a few times each in both directions, doing these exercises each time for me really solidifies the feel and motion of the Pro One pivot. Don't be afraid to go back and forth for a while until the Pro One feels natural.

As another opinion, JoeyA here on the forum (who also helped answer some of my questions) advocated practicing purely manual pivots for a certain amount of time, say a month or so, to really ingrain those before starting with Pro One. Can't fault that logic either. I asked Stan about it, to make sure I wasn't skipping ahead, and he said if the Pro One felt natural then don't wait to use it as long as you understand the manual method as well.

As for pivots, I had the same issue. I finally realized that for most normal shots the pivot is inside-out (away from the cut angle), so when I approach a shot I can usually see pretty accurately whether I need to align to the A/C points or the B point, and then unless the shot is straight or almost straight the pivot is typically in the same direction as the cut. So when cutting the ball to the left, you will typically use a left pivot (setting up left and pivoting to center, away from the pocket, or "inside"), unless the shot is say within 10 degrees or so, then you will have to pivot the other way. There is a fine line there where the aim point or pivot changes at certain small ranges of angles, say 5 degrees or so between straight/normal and A / B / 1/8 points, but practice and learning to trust the shots quickly will tell you that you need to line up differently.

I would say right now, after 8 - 10 practice sessions of a few hours each (and playing mixed in), of the shots I miss probably 70% are because I made a bad stroke or steered the ball because the alignment didn't look right, 25% I realize I didn't take enough care sighting the shot, and 5% I picked the wrong alignment. But overall I'm still pocketing balls probably 20% - 30% better than I was before, and that's only after a few weeks.

Hope this helps.
Scott

JE54
03-31-2011, 01:48 PM
I tried to copy the info with the wei table to Microsoft word. The text copies but not the table. I did it by dragging the mouse and highligthing the text including the table. Right clicked and selected copy then when to the word document and hit paste. Where the table would be is a little picture of something. Any suggestions how to copy the table so I can print it so I can have a copy near the table?

Neil
03-31-2011, 02:40 PM
................

Patrick Johnson
03-31-2011, 03:14 PM
I tried to copy the info with the wei table to Microsoft word. The text copies but not the table. I did it by dragging the mouse and highligthing the text including the table. Right clicked and selected copy then when to the word document and hit paste. Where the table would be is a little picture of something. Any suggestions how to copy the table so I can print it so I can have a copy near the table?
If you're on a PC, hit the PrintScreen key (usually abbreviated as "Prt Scr"), which copies an image of what's on your screen onto your Windows Clipboard. Then open the Paint program that comes with Windows and Paste the image into that program. Then you can print it, save it, etc.

pj
chgo

JE54
03-31-2011, 06:11 PM
Thanks, I'll give it a try..................

JE54
03-31-2011, 06:32 PM
I tried it, didn't get it. Called in my daughter and she did it in a couple minutes. Oh well, I never said I knew much about computors, just enough to get in trouble. lol

JoeyA
03-31-2011, 07:14 PM
I just wanted to clarify that shot arc concept. The smaller the pivot, the less it matters. The DVD is specific to 1/2 tip pivots because very little can go wrong.

CTE as a system doesn't have a pre-configured "offset," if you would. Hal specifically said the offset didn't matter (and he's right); however, additional considerations need to be made if a player chooses to offset beyond 1/2 tip (say, a 1/2 ball).

So, when releasing a DVD and making this as objective as possible without fooling around with a lot of variables - Stan chose 1/2 tip pivots so a player could see results right away.

I know this thread is for DVD-content-only, so I'll be brief. Once your tip offset increases beyond 1/2 tip, the player cannot pivot straight from the bridge as they'd pivot to the incorrect center based on shot distances. That's where pivoting along the OB plane comes in to ensure you're getting to the correct center.

I made a detour this past Sunday to Walnutport, PA to see Hal. I was warned ahead of time that his "clarity" has slipped considerably since my last visit. When I sat by his bed, he was a little foggy. But as soon as I mentioned "the aiming police," "Pat Johnson," "Bob Jewett," and other members of the gang, Hal snapped into ninja mode. In fact, I'm not sure if I ever recall Hal being so cognizant of detail in our discussion! Unreal! Sunny was elated and couldn't believe it. I told her if he ever clouds up, just tell him that Patrick Johnson is knocking CTE on AZBilliards and watch what happens (nothing like poking the tiger through the cage). LOL! (Pat -- hopefully you see the humor in that and don't mind I totally used you to get Hal back into instruction-mode)

One of the questions I snuck in was, "Hal, when you were playing -- what was your bridge length and offset?"

He replied by saying his bridge length was VERY short (about 4-5" or so) and his offset was VERY small (smaller than 1/2 tip). His goal, he explained, was to minimize the chance of "losing the trajectory" to the target after getting to center. The true target, as he explained it, was hitting the exact center of the CB (this lead into a lengthy discussion on how to do that).

Now, I want to preface that comment with the fact that Hal comes from an era where 14.1 was the game of choice. Many of us are rotation players and playing with a bridge that short would break your game. Hal's consideration was minimal CB movement.

In conclusion, smaller offsets mitigate the need to worry about pivot arcs. If you offset 1/2 ball, like me, and pivot from the bridge--- you'll never make a ball. Once you get to 1/2 tip and within, you can. See? Stan eliminated a big variable :)

Dave

Great update on Hal Houle! Glad to hear he and Sunny are doing well.

THANK YOU!
joeyA

JoeyA
03-31-2011, 07:24 PM
Yes! I've been harping on that for quite some time now. I've been calling them "alignment points", but I think your "reference points" idea is better. "Alignment points" could be taken as meaning "cue alignment".

I like to call them "aiming" coordinates but reference points sounds good too.

One tip, I don't know if it has been mentioned is to practice CTE/Pro One with simple straight in shots. What you are practicing is the entire aiming system but especially seeing the aiming coordinates/reference points. Pay a lot of attention to the A,B & C coordinates. You must be precise with aiming the edge of the cue ball at these points. When I first started using CTE/Pro One, I was missing balls because I was not being precise with aiming the edge of the cue ball even though i had chosen the correct aiming coordinate.

When you are first starting out, make sure the cueball and object ball are at least 18-24" apart and you have plenty of room to make a bridge on the bed of the slate. I liked using the side pockets because it was a small area and easy to sight the visuals.

JoeyA

mantis99
03-31-2011, 09:34 PM
Realize that when shooting to a side pocket, that a ball aimed at the center of the pocket (as the system is suppossed to set you up to do) will catch the jaws if the angle is great enough, thus you may have to adjust for slightly more cut to get by the jaws and shoot to the far side of the pocket.

jwpretd
04-01-2011, 01:56 AM
Realize that when shooting to a side pocket, that a ball aimed at the center of the pocket (as the system is suppossed to set you up to do) will catch the jaws if the angle is great enough, thus you may have to adjust for slightly more cut to get by the jaws and shoot to the far side of the pocket.

That's interesting. I've taken "center pocket" to mean "the center of the pocket opening as seen along the OB's path to the pocket". That is, in the case of shooting down the rail, or into a side pocket at a steep angle, it would mean the far side of the pocket, even the facing of the far side in some cases. Is that not what it was intended to mean?

randyg
04-01-2011, 04:35 AM
That's interesting. I've taken "center pocket" to mean "the center of the pocket opening as seen along the OB's path to the pocket". That is, in the case of shooting down the rail, or into a side pocket at a steep angle, it would mean the far side of the pocket, even the facing of the far side in some cases. Is that not what it was intended to mean?



I agree. Center of the pocket slides slightly.
randyg

Mikjary
04-04-2011, 04:38 PM
The visual alignments Stan has created in Cte/Pro One are unique thanks to his hard work. But, they can be taken out of the system and used in most aiming situations. I spoke before about the benefits of using the eyes to work both together and separately to get the shooter on the correct aiming line. Each eye takes a role, depending on the direction of the cut, to supply the mind with the necessary information to direct the body's alignment.

Simply put, the left eye will give the input to the brain for the aiming points on the left sides of the cue ball and object ball. The right side will direct traffic on the right sides of the balls. Your visual will actually be a blended image of both eyes with the left eye in charge on the left side and the right eye on the right side. You are using both eyes, but one eye's image will give the correct information to your brain, which is again, the left eye for the left side and the right eye for right side.

A typical shot to the left using the A aiming point would have the player using their right eye to find the ctel (center to edge line) and their left eye to find the A aiming point. The same is true for the B aiming point. The player would use his left eye to find the B aiming point and his right eye to find the ctel. The opposite is true for shots to the right.

Some players may find they can accomplish this using one eye to sight both aiming point and ctel simultaneously, but this is rare. It is possible, but most will find this tedious, at best. I tried this and my eyes reverted back to using both naturally, instead of just one. If your body does something on its own, pay attention. :wink:

Best,
Mike

Not Dead Ted
04-04-2011, 04:54 PM
*******************
Simply put, the left eye will give the input to the brain for the aiming points on the left sides of the cue ball and object ball.
*********************

This is not so, and it is easy to prove.

Hold your index finger up at arms length, in front of your nose. Close your left eye, move your finger to the left. You will continue to see your finger with your right eye until it is about 45 degrees to the left of midline. So, visualizing aiming points on the opposite side of the ball occurs on every shot, unless of course you are a fish (PJ?), or perhaps a horse, where the lateral eye placement on the skull does not allow the visual field to extend beyond midline, as it does in all binocular humans.

JoeyA
04-04-2011, 05:17 PM
Problem solved...

Mikjary
04-04-2011, 05:38 PM
*******************
Simply put, the left eye will give the input to the brain for the aiming points on the left sides of the cue ball and object ball.
*********************

This is not so, and it is easy to prove.

Hold your index finger up at arms length, in front of your nose. Close your left eye, move your finger to the left. You will continue to see your finger with your right eye until it is about 45 degrees to the left of midline. So, visualizing aiming points on the opposite side of the ball occurs on every shot, unless of course you are a fish (PJ?), or perhaps a horse, where the lateral eye placement on the skull does not allow the visual field to extend beyond midline, as it does in all binocular humans.

This is a method you can use by blending the actual images and picking out which one you decide to use. You will be using both eyes, but the most important information will be what is used by the shooter. Please reread the post.

The purpose of moving the discussion to this thread was to discuss CTE. Not simple facts about obvious visual parameters, etc. Please keep your comments on point. Thank you.

Best,
Mike

Not Dead Ted
04-04-2011, 06:42 PM
This is a method you can use by blending the actual images and picking out which one you decide to use. You will be using both eyes, but the most important information will be what is used by the shooter. Please reread the post.

The purpose of moving the discussion to this thread was to discuss CTE. Not simple facts about obvious visual parameters, etc. Please keep your comments on point. Thank you.

Best,
Mike

I have re-read your post #51, and it makes no sense whatsoever.

Your statement:
"Simply put, the left eye will give the input to the brain for the aiming points on the left sides of the cue ball and object ball. The right side will direct traffic on the right sides of the balls. Your visual will actually be a blended image of both eyes with the left eye in charge on the left side and the right eye on the right side."

Is incorrect. You could make the argument that the temporal aspect of the right retina and the nasal aspect of the left retina "direct traffic" from the left side of the OB (left visual field) to the right side of the brain(which is really "in charge"). This would at least be more anatomically correct, but would still likely be substantially over simplified.

You selected the left-eye, left-side-of-ball as your visual model for CTE, and it is not consistent with what is known about the way that we see things.

Mikjary
04-04-2011, 07:15 PM
I have re-read your post #51, and it makes no sense whatsoever.

Your statement:
"Simply put, the left eye will give the input to the brain for the aiming points on the left sides of the cue ball and object ball. The right side will direct traffic on the right sides of the balls. Your visual will actually be a blended image of both eyes with the left eye in charge on the left side and the right eye on the right side."

Is incorrect. You could make the argument that the temporal aspect of the right retina and the nasal aspect of the left retina "direct traffic" from the left side of the OB (left visual field) to the right side of the brain(which is really "in charge"). This would at least be more anatomically correct, but would still likely be substantially over simplified.

You selected the left-eye, left-side-of-ball as your visual model for CTE, and it is not consistent with what is known about the way that we see things.

You've been asked to not discuss points unless they are Cte/Pro One related. I am not concerned about which side of the brain is processing information from the eyes in this thread. The phrase "directing traffic" was not directed at brain function, but rather visual input.

This thread was specifically created to review information from the Cte/Pro One dvd.

I'm asking you again to respect this request and not insert your opinions in this discussion. It is a simple request.

Best,
Mike

Not Dead Ted
04-04-2011, 08:05 PM
You've been asked to not discuss points unless they are Cte?Pro One related. I am not concerned about which side of the brain is processing information from the eyes in this thread. The phrase "directing traffic" was not directed at brain function, but rather visual input.

This thread was specifically created to review information from the Cte/Pro One dvd.

I'm asking you again to respect this request and not insert your opinions in this discussion. It is a simple request.

Best,
Mike


Your theory on the visual system and CTE is nowhere to be found on Stan's DVD.

Please stick to information from the DVD.

Thank you.

Mikjary
04-04-2011, 08:35 PM
Your theory on the visual system and CTE is nowhere to be found on Stan's DVD.

Please stick to information from the DVD.

Thank you.

Did it ever occur to you that possibly I have dealt with the man on a personal level? It is no secret about the facts I have been posting. I was going to post more and tie in my previous posts, but I seem to be occupied with you.

I don't speak for Stan. If I post an incorrect or misleading point, I expect him to call me to straighten it out. We communicate when necessary, Stan makes the decisions. He is the instructor, I am the student.

You have posted to disrupt the thread, again. I understand your interest in clarity about the subject. What I'm starting to understand is your continued need to get the last word in, here. If that's what it takes, go ahead. Post one more time and we're good, bro. I'll wait.

After that, I will post information relevant to Cte/Pro One along with other posters.

Best,
Mike

AtLarge
04-04-2011, 10:13 PM
Maybe the more generalized tip from Mikjary's post #51 is just to try sighting the alignment lines more than one way (using the eyes differently) to find your own personal best way.

You could set up some of the shots from the DVD, use the alignment-menu selections the DVD calls for, and shoot the shots several times each, using the eyes different ways. Let success be your guide.

Mikjary
04-05-2011, 06:14 AM
Maybe the more generalized tip from Mikjary's post #51 is just to try sighting the alignment lines more than one way (using the eyes differently) to find your own personal best way.

You could set up some of the shots from the DVD, use the alignment-menu selections the DVD calls for, and shoot the shots several times each, using the eyes different ways. Let success be your guide.

Yes! Absolutely. The point of my previous post was to let each user know that they are an individual and what works for them visually, may be different than the next person. On some shots I use only one eye to sight the aiming points. On others, I share the work between both eyes.

On the dvd, a mention of the different sighting methods would have taken another chapter and would have been a confusing exercise in camera work. It also would have been redundant as this information is already out there for each user to research. Another factor is that the beginning user doesn't need to be influenced by a method of visual alignment that they may not need. They may be visually correct with no coaching and may develop problems that were never intended, because they deviated from their natural method of visual sighting.

Each player has to try the system and not worry about how they are seeing the aiming points. If you are having trouble or have problem areas that won't go away, that is the time to look deeper. And remember, you alone know how you see each shot. Others can only suggest a solution. There is a typical pattern most people will use, but one size doesn't fit all.

Best,
Mike

champ2107
04-05-2011, 06:25 AM
MIkjary understand the visual part of cte/pro1 better than anyone on this board. If you have trouble understanding what he means, just ask him nicely and im sure he will tell you. Im telling you now you will be making a big mistake not listening and trying to understand what he is saying and i know stan would also agree with what Mikjary has posted so far in these threads, trust me.

SpiderWebComm
04-05-2011, 06:33 AM
Yes! Absolutely. The point of my previous post was to let each user know that they are an individual and what works for them visually, may be different than the next person. On some shots I use only one eye to sight the aiming points. On others, I share the work between both eyes.

On the dvd, a mention of the different sighting methods would have taken another chapter and would have been a confusing exercise in camera work. It also would have been redundant as this information is already out there for each user to research. Another factor is that the beginning user doesn't need to be influenced by a method of visual alignment that they may not need. They may be visually correct with no coaching and may develop problems that were never intended, because they deviated from their natural method of visual sighting.

Each player has to try the system and not worry about how they are seeing the aiming points. If you are having trouble or have problem areas that won't go away, that is the time to look deeper. And remember, you alone know how you see each shot. Others can only suggest a solution. There is a typical pattern most people will use, but one size doesn't fit all.

Best,
Mike

People like to talk about ____ version of CTE or ____ version of CTE or Stan's CTE/Pro1, etc, etc. Fact is, CTE is CTE and many of these methods are looking at the same core thing from a different angle --- but the core method is really no different.

People sometimes say, "Well, Hal's version of CTE was incomplete, etc." I kind of cringe when I read that stuff because nothing he did was incomplete. Stan's method comes largely from the infamous Hal post (you know, there are 6 pockets on the table post -- the one everyone made fun of). Hal simply left out the pivot.

Furthermore, basic core information was sometimes lost in between Hal's mouth and the bashing threads here on CTE. I've always said CTE was a misnomer. It's really center to "outermost" edge. Hal would tell me to "poke my head out to see a new edge." It took me a few years to really get what he was saying. Fact is-- your eyes should never straddle the CTEL for each and every shot.

Therefore, there are different ways to accomplish the same core thing. Some, however, are easier to teach than others. Stan's method is without a doubt the easiest and most effective way to absorb this info. I think when someone masters his info, it would be beneficial to experiment with a visual approach (outermost edge method, probably the same as what Mikjary is saying) just for completeness. You'll find when you sight an OB's outermost edge and then peer down to the CB, you'll see the edge alignments are the same as Stan's method.

NOTHING Hal did/said was incomplete -- I can't stress that enough.

Mikjary
04-05-2011, 10:29 AM
MIkjary understand the visual part of cte/pro1 better than anyone on this board. If you have trouble understanding what he means, just ask him nicely and im sure he will tell you. Im telling you now you will be making a big mistake not listening and trying to understand what he is saying and i know stan would also agree with what Mikjary has posted so far in these threads, trust me.

Thanks, Mike, for the pat on the back, :thumbup: but I can defer to many posters on here who have much more knowledge than I do. I am simply repeating what they have shown to me in posts and pms.

Dave Segal, for instance, opened my eyes to Perfect Aim techniques and the different possibilities of changing how you can look at a shot. I believe you can look at a shot wrong, have an incorrect alignment and still pocket balls. You can do the same thing in every sport; hit a baseball, hit a golf ball, etc. With an improved visual setup, you can improve your chances of making more accurate contact, targeting, etc.

Pool players achieve a certain level or peak and try many things to improve their game. Some help, but most are exercises in futility. I like to try them all. If it doesn't work for me, I move on. I don't hang around and criticize others for using it. I keep tabs, though on their progress, just in case I was wrong. My negative views would only slow down the chance for advancement or new ideas to emerge.

When we stop searching, the challenge is gone. Pool becomes just an activity and fills in our leisure time like going out to dinner or going to the movies. If you're at this point in your pool career, you probably wouldn't be reading these threads. You either believe there is something out there that can improve your game, or it's all been said and done before. I tend to hang with the first part and listen to what players are saying. Whether they are a novice or a seasoned pro. A fresh perspective can be just what you're looking for.

Best,
Mike

scottjen26
04-05-2011, 01:10 PM
So far so good, 5 pages in and no name calling yet... :)

Looking forward to more good information in this thread. As posted in this thread and others I'm a relatively recent convert to CTE/Pro One and loving it! Interesting thing was I skipping playing for about 2 weeks (busy / sick on my normal pool nights) and was itching to play last night. Since I'm still new to this, I started out shooting really rough, not seeing the lines, not trusting myself, and stroke was a bit off too. Then someone came over to play (I should have said no) and more crap followed. But once I got back to practice again, and did some reference shot drills to reinforce the aim lines and pivots and some straight stroke drills everything fell back into place, thankfully.

The recent discussion on using both eyes to sight the lines rings true with me, that's when I "got" it and was able to see the shots and use the system appropriately. I still shoot with the stick under my dominant eye (left for me) as I always have, but when sighting in my preshot routine while upright both eyes are definitely being used.


I have a few questions for the experts here:

- When cutting a ball to the right, I feel like I can pick up the CTE line and aim points while in a normal stance offset as described. But when cutting to the left, I find I have to "lean" to the right to pick up the lines and then be very conscious of my (typical) right pivot to make sure I get across the CTE line so to speak. Any tips for this, or is that little head lean just going to become part of my routine?

- Any tips for picking up the visuals for longer shots? Because of the perceived size of the object ball, seems to me the precision needed for both the alignment portion and actual pivot/stroke is much higher than on normal routine shots say within 2 - 3 feet. Luckily, at least if you are playing well, most of your shots are within 2 - 4 feet of the object ball, so these awkward longer shots don't come up often. I'm getting better at them, so maybe just practice is needed.

- Also related to longer shots, I realized that at distances more than 4 diamonds or so that if aim point B is required based on the angle of the cut, I actually use aim points A or C instead. I think that info was in the DVD and Stan mentioned it as well in a conversation. Oddly, seems that when an original aim point of A or C is required, or a thinner cut of 1/8, there seems to be no corresponding adjustment. Is this correct?


I'll probably have more as I continue to practice, thanks again for the continued discussion.
Scott

Mikjary
04-05-2011, 02:36 PM
So far so good, 5 pages in and no name calling yet... :)

Looking forward to more good information in this thread. As posted in this thread and others I'm a relatively recent convert to CTE/Pro One and loving it! Interesting thing was I skipping playing for about 2 weeks (busy / sick on my normal pool nights) and was itching to play last night. Since I'm still new to this, I started out shooting really rough, not seeing the lines, not trusting myself, and stroke was a bit off too. Then someone came over to play (I should have said no) and more crap followed. But once I got back to practice again, and did some reference shot drills to reinforce the aim lines and pivots and some straight stroke drills everything fell back into place, thankfully.

The recent discussion on using both eyes to sight the lines rings true with me, that's when I "got" it and was able to see the shots and use the system appropriately. I still shoot with the stick under my dominant eye (left for me) as I always have, but when sighting in my preshot routine while upright both eyes are definitely being used.


I have a few questions for the experts here:

- When cutting a ball to the right, I feel like I can pick up the CTE line and aim points while in a normal stance offset as described. But when cutting to the left, I find I have to "lean" to the right to pick up the lines and then be very conscious of my (typical) right pivot to make sure I get across the CTE line so to speak. Any tips for this, or is that little head lean just going to become part of my routine?

- Any tips for picking up the visuals for longer shots? Because of the perceived size of the object ball, seems to me the precision needed for both the alignment portion and actual pivot/stroke is much higher than on normal routine shots say within 2 - 3 feet. Luckily, at least if you are playing well, most of your shots are within 2 - 4 feet of the object ball, so these awkward longer shots don't come up often. I'm getting better at them, so maybe just practice is needed.

- Also related to longer shots, I realized that at distances more than 4 diamonds or so that if aim point B is required based on the angle of the cut, I actually use aim points A or C instead. I think that info was in the DVD and Stan mentioned it as well in a conversation. Oddly, seems that when an original aim point of A or C is required, or a thinner cut of 1/8, there seems to be no corresponding adjustment. Is this correct?


I'll probably have more as I continue to practice, thanks again for the continued discussion.
Scott

Hey Scott,

You are picking this stuff up fast judging by your questions. I'll be asking you for help next month.:)

Sticking your head out is not a problem. It is to be expected on certain shots. It is your eyes telling your body where to be to get into the correct alignment. This will become smoother and more comfortable with practice.

The long shots are hard to see with any system. With Cte/Pro One, you get the additional benefit of two points to look at instead of one contact point. For sighting, I like what Stevie does on the dvd. He bends over to get a good look at the aiming points. I do this, too.

When the balls are further apart, the perspective will change. At six diamonds, I can use B to cut a ball fairly thin. A or C will still be used for the straighter shots with very little change. This is something that takes some experience to figure out for each individual shooter. In a short time, since you are aware of your shot making abilities and ranges, you will automatically learn this. You just have to see it and your brain catalogs it in no time.

When I use 90/90 aiming, I use 90 half/ball quite a bit. It covers a large range of angles for me. Basically, I visually give my brain the information for the shot with my setup. My body moves into position as I hold my visuals and I'm there. The key is giving my mind the correct, consistent visual setup.

Best,
Mike

LAMas
04-05-2011, 03:07 PM
scottjen26,

I shouldn't post here for I don't have the DVD.
But.....

When I started to try CTE years ago, I got down on the shot lined up with the CTE line (CTEL) before the secondary aiming line from the edge of the CB to the points on the OB were proffered by CTE/Pro-1. The pre-pivot distance was described by some as 1/2 tip, one tip, 1/4 ball shift to the side of the center of the CB.

The side shift of 1/2 tip was absorbed in my CTEL stance, but the 1/4 ball shift took my head to the side to sight over the cue and then the pivot took me further away from my stance - I wasn't moving my feet back then.

I now set up on the CTEL while looking for the secondary aim line and walk into the shot putting my bridge down and with the 1/2 tip shift to the side pre-pivot - I then pivot and make a slight adjustment so that I can stroke naturally before I shoot.

You are correct about the 2 foot separation between the CB and OB being fine with a 1/2 tip offset and you can practice that until you get repeatable cut angles. What I have found is that to achieve those same cut angles for each secondary aim point on the OB requires a smaller than 1/2 tip offset for larger separations between the CB and OB. It might be 1/4 tip offset for 3 feet separations and at 4 feet,iit may be as small as 1/10 offset for 4 feet.

For a 1 foot separation between the two, the offset can be as large as 2 1/2 cue tip diameters. This is caused by the OB appearing larger when close to the CB, where the distances between "A" and "B" appear to be correspondingly larger. The converse is also true as explained above.

This is self compensating for if you think about it, If you shot the smaller appearing OB with the same 2 1/2 tip offset pre-pivot for a separation of 1 foot and achieve say a 10 degree angle to the GB. That 10 degree would be traveling away from the smaller appearing OB and at 7 foot separation, the CB will miss the OB altogether.

This is how I see it for now and still don't know how to get both of my eyes on the CTEL and the secondary aim line - some say to put the head at an angle to the cue by adjusting ones stance more at a say 45 degree angle to the cue - this effectivly brings the lines of sight of the eyes closer together.

Just sayin how things work for me.:thumbup:

Mikjary
04-05-2011, 07:15 PM
This is how I see it for now and still don't know how to get both of my eyes on the CTEL and the secondary aim line - some say to put the head at an angle to the cue by adjusting ones stance more at a say 45 degree angle to the cue - this effectivly brings the lines of sight of the eyes closer together.

Just sayin how things work for me.:thumbup:

LAMas,

Have you tried using only one eye instead of two? For about 10-15% of my shots I use only one eye to pick up both lines. You don't have to use two eyes. To each his own. You might be the only person in the world who sees the shot like you do. It doesn't matter. It's what works for you visually.

Hope I helped ewe. :grin-square:

Best,
Mike

Patrick Johnson
04-05-2011, 08:27 PM
Mikjary:
The key is giving my mind the correct, consistent visual setup.
I think most of the system's benefit can be attributed to that.

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson
04-05-2011, 08:33 PM
Neil:
CTE is a center pocket system
This description is meaningless except as a metaphor for "precise", and as a metaphor for "precise" it's misleading or untrue.

pj
chgo

champ2107
04-05-2011, 08:42 PM
Nice and it begins :thumbup:

LAMas
04-05-2011, 08:52 PM
LAMas,

Have you tried using only one eye instead of two? For about 10-15% of my shots I use only one eye to pick up both lines. You don't have to use two eyes. To each his own. You might be the only person in the world who sees the shot like you do. It doesn't matter. It's what works for you visually.

Hope I helped ewe. :grin-square:

Best,
Mike

I spent an hour and a half to validate the cut angles derived from my diagrams for they seemed to be too large. I started by shooting spot shots with the CB just to the right of the left corner pocket in the kitchen. I used top/follow at pocket speed to minimize the effects of CIT. After making several in a row, I then used that english top/follow to shoot after aligning the secondary aim line. I realized that my diagrams used a OB diameter that was too small so I increased it for the 2 foot separation between the CB and OB based on perspective that I derived using ACAD.

I started with the OB on the spot and the CB at CTEL just to the right of the center of the table (between the side pockets). I put the secondary aim line on the left edge of the OB and achieved about a 35 degree cut angle - check. I then tried the 1/8 and achieved around 40 degrees - missing the left upper corner pocket to the right of it and hitting the end rail behind the spot.

I then moved to the 1/4 OB and started to pocket the OB into the 4.0" wide opening. I am not accurate in aligning my left eye and missed some shots by and inch or so. I started to stick aim and lifting the cue tip vertically to try to be more accurate - I still suiffer from parallax, for the OB appears above the CB with the felt in between, and I have to concentrate and focus on the secondary aim line, get down with a 1/2 tip offset, pivot and shoot - most shots went in.

I then went to 1/2 OB and was hitting to the left of the pocket by about 1/2 the distance to the first diamond. The 3/4 OB hit the rail between the first and second diamond and the right 1/8 at around the second diamond. Fatigue set in and I stopped.

Aiming with my left eye improved so I tried PJ's doubling the distance from the contact point with the left edge of the CB and I found it to be more natural for me and thus more accurate - it works very well.

The last half hour was banging balls and getting shape to run out a few balls - 4.0" pockets is taxing.

Mike, I use only one eye that is closest to the edge of the CB to establish my stance and stroke under the center of my chin (1.125" to the side to stroke about at the center of the CB). For me, this is geometrically diagrammable and is yielding consistent results. You wrote me months ago to use one eye on the secondary aim line at the quarters before A, B and C.

It works for me.
Thanks

Roger Long
04-05-2011, 09:23 PM
This description is meaningless except as a metaphor for "precise", and as a metaphor for "precise" it's misleading or untrue.

pj
chgo

Patrick,

I normally appreciate your contributions to CTE threads as I believe they make interested parties really think and study the subject, but in this thread the OP respectfully asked for opponents of CTE/ProOne to refrain from posting. Is really too difficult to leave just one thread alone?

Roger

Redneck Jim
04-10-2011, 01:24 PM
In the league I play in, there are four different bars that still use the oversize cue ball. These have always given me problems with aiming.
I even bought one of the larger balls so I could practice at home before league night. It helped some, but I still had problems.

Today, I tried some of the CTE manual pivot shots, and was happy to find that the cue ball size didn't seem to affect my results.
Evidently, the reference lines take care of the size difference. This is another bonus for me.

dr_dave
04-10-2011, 04:46 PM
It might be nice to have one thread where we could exchange tips about aiming with CTE -- things we have learned that might help someone else learn more easily or quickly.Nice idea for a thread. It is good to see that the thread has remained non-combative, non-hostile, non-mean-spirited, and non-childish. I don't think any CTE thread in the past has remained this civil and for so long. Good job everybody!

I ask that this thread be limited to talking about Stan Shuffett's version of CTE -- not earlier versions or someone's hybridization.To help avoid possible confusion, or if some readers don't know the details of what is being discussed, here's a concise summary of Stan's version (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#ProOne). Also, I know you don't want other versions/hybridizations discussed in this thread, which I think is a good idea; but if people want to see how other versions compare or contrast with Stan's version, several common versions are described here (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#CTE).

Tip -- Use Streamlined Shot "Call-Outs"
Stan's method essentially presents the player with a menu of ways to align oneself -- or determine the final cue-stick alignment -- for a shot. Some students have expressed confusion, difficulty, or dismay in trying to keep the options straight as the shots present themselves during a game or match. When I use the method, I find it helpful to streamline that menu in my mind, in the following ways.

The center-to-edge line always goes to the outside (side farther from the pocket) of the object ball, and I doubt that anyone has any difficulty in immediately seeing that. Stan then uses A, B, and C for the secondary alignment lines, and left and right for the pivots. My mental way of implementing this makes two changes in terminology:

Instead of thinking of A, B, or C, I find it easier in actual play to just think "1" or "2," where this means 1 or 2 quarters of the OB. So "A" and "C" are both "1" (one quarter) and "B" is "2" (two quarters). Since the side for the CTEL is instantly obvious on a shot, I just think whether to align for 1 vs. 2 quarters for the secondary alignment (forget the very thin cuts for now).

Instead of thinking "left" or "right" for the 1/2-tip offset for the pivot, which have different effects depending on the direction of the cut, I just think "out" or "in," where "out" means outside and "in" means inside.I think it is helpful to use the "outside" and "inside" terminology for both the alignment points (1/8-left, 1/4-left, center, 1/4-right, 1/8 right) and the pre-pivot cue tip position (left or right). This allows Stan's approach to be summarized very concisely (as shown here (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#ProOne)) and allows cuts in both directions (left or right) to be covered by a single menu of choices. The concise summary might help some people learn and remember the system more easily. It might also help some people see the patterns and trends concerning how the alignment and pivot change as the necessary amount of cut increases.

Regards,
Dave

Palmerfan
04-15-2011, 08:11 PM
I just wanted to clarify that shot arc concept. The smaller the pivot, the less it matters. The DVD is specific to 1/2 tip pivots because very little can go wrong.

CTE as a system doesn't have a pre-configured "offset," if you would. Hal specifically said the offset didn't matter (and he's right); however, additional considerations need to be made if a player chooses to offset beyond 1/2 tip (say, a 1/2 ball).

So, when releasing a DVD and making this as objective as possible without fooling around with a lot of variables - Stan chose 1/2 tip pivots so a player could see results right away.

I know this thread is for DVD-content-only, so I'll be brief. Once your tip offset increases beyond 1/2 tip, the player cannot pivot straight from the bridge as they'd pivot to the incorrect center based on shot distances. That's where pivoting along the OB plane comes in to ensure you're getting to the correct center.

I made a detour this past Sunday to Walnutport, PA to see Hal. I was warned ahead of time that his "clarity" has slipped considerably since my last visit. When I sat by his bed, he was a little foggy. But as soon as I mentioned "the aiming police," "Pat Johnson," "Bob Jewett," and other members of the gang, Hal snapped into ninja mode. In fact, I'm not sure if I ever recall Hal being so cognizant of detail in our discussion! Unreal! Sunny was elated and couldn't believe it. I told her if he ever clouds up, just tell him that Patrick Johnson is knocking CTE on AZBilliards and watch what happens (nothing like poking the tiger through the cage). LOL! (Pat -- hopefully you see the humor in that and don't mind I totally used you to get Hal back into instruction-mode)

One of the questions I snuck in was, "Hal, when you were playing -- what was your bridge length and offset?"

He replied by saying his bridge length was VERY short (about 4-5" or so) and his offset was VERY small (smaller than 1/2 tip). His goal, he explained, was to minimize the chance of "losing the trajectory" to the target after getting to center. The true target, as he explained it, was hitting the exact center of the CB (this lead into a lengthy discussion on how to do that).

Now, I want to preface that comment with the fact that Hal comes from an era where 14.1 was the game of choice. Many of us are rotation players and playing with a bridge that short would break your game. Hal's consideration was minimal CB movement.

In conclusion, smaller offsets mitigate the need to worry about pivot arcs. If you offset 1/2 ball, like me, and pivot from the bridge--- you'll never make a ball. Once you get to 1/2 tip and within, you can. See? Stan eliminated a big variable :)

Dave

I have Stan's DVD and watched it many times..and spoke to him on the phone on an issue that confused me and he took all the time necessary for me to understand it. To me trying CTE..ETE..90/90..whatever is that where ever you start your aim on the cue ball better be the exact same offset that you spot on the object ball. I know where Dave gets his half ball pivot as I get it from the same source.

I think Stan's system can be used as a complete system if the half tip offset helps you sight better, and it can be used as a reference point (A,B or B,C) after a larger pivot if you use a larger amount of offset to begin with..like the cueballs edge or half ball to start your pivot.

LAMas
04-15-2011, 11:11 PM
...CTE/PRO ONE is a VISUAL SYSTEM.

If a player's eyes were positioned exactly the same for each shot, A and B, the results would be identical.

For the 1 ball shot, a player's body is behind the CB with the headed tilted to the right to see the visuals.
For the 2 ball shot, a player's body is clearly much more to the right of the cue ball than for the 1 ball.
The eyes are in different positions for each shot. The proper visuals are easily obtained for each shot. The table can dictate body and eye positioning and even the distance that eyes are from the CB. That is the nature of the rectanglular table.

Actually shot 2 could be played as a stop shot safety as I demoed on the DVD or possibly an iffy 4 rail bank. BUT, one must postion the eyes just as if they were shooting the 1 ball.


Just because a CB and an OB share a common distance and the same visuals does not mean the eyes will be postioned the same way for each shot. Perception is altered with varied eye positions. As I mentioned on the DVD the table will often dicate a player's ball address postion.

Very commendable work, AtLarge! The 2 shots you presented represent a great lesson in CTE/PRO ONE.

Stan
-------------------------------------------

The head tilted is a recuring instruction.

If the head is tilted, then the eyes are in a different location and thus the visual is altered to the side; and the secondary aim line is no longer directly on the aim point on the OB, say "B" for example.

If this is all one does without shifting the body to a new stance, then the result will be the same as if one didn't tilt the head.

If one the other hand, one tilts the head and aquires a new visual a bit off of point "B" and then moves the body accordingly to recapture point "B", then the cut angle will be different than if one didn't tilt the head etc..

I guess that one can tilt the head to move the eyes a small bit for a slightly different cut angle than the original aim point "B", and one can tilt the head to move the eyes even more for a larger "slightly" different cut angle.

The results of this progressive tilting of the head can be stored in memory for recalling later for 1/8, A, B, C and 1/8 along with pivoting left or pivoting right.

This is viable, is geometrically diagrammable for each shooter with different visuals i.e., left or right dominant eye or somewhere in between - though not parsimonious.

Viable for those that have mastered CTE/Pro-One.

Just saying without malice.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

dumluk

AtLarge
04-15-2011, 11:27 PM
... The results of this progressive tilting of the head can be stored in memory for recalling later for 1/8, A, B, C and 1/8 along with pivoting left or pivoting right. ...

I don't know whether "progressive tilting of the head" is a way Stan would recommend for achieving the multiple eye positions, and therefore multiple cut angles, within any single, fundamental instruction set (same two visuals and pivot direction). An alternative is simply shifting the head, and therefore the eyes, slightly laterally without altering the tilt of the head. I'm going to watch the DVD again sometime soon, trying to pay close attention to the eye positions for each shot.

LAMas
04-16-2011, 12:12 AM
I don't know whether "progressive tilting of the head" is a way Stan would recommend for achieving the multiple eye positions, and therefore multiple cut angles, within any single, fundamental instruction set (same two visuals and pivot direction). An alternative is simply shifting the head, and therefore the eyes, slightly laterally without altering the tilt of the head. I'm going to watch the DVD again sometime soon, trying to pay close attention to the eye positions for each shot.

I thought that the Rosetta Stone of CTE/Pro-One was revealed by Stan to you, only to have him reject your understanding of what he said.

Progress is being made in understanding how one can fill in the cut angles between the 1/8ths and 1/4ths secondary aim points in a cogent manner/instruction.

Perhaps some of the non-users understand it better than the users.:wink: Otherwise, after countless hours at the table, you, as Bolo Ocho says, "get into a 'Zone' " where the subconscious takes over.

After a couple of hours of DD practice at the table, getting my fundamentals zeroed in, I can also get into the "Zone" and run racks - the Zen of pool.:wink: - but I digress for this thread is about Stan's method that has not yet been unequivocally revealed - even in the DVD (that I don't have).

So for now, "experience" means "time at the table.":thumbup:

stan shuffett
04-16-2011, 05:08 AM
...CTE/PRO ONE is a VISUAL SYSTEM.

If a player's eyes were positioned exactly the same for each shot, A and B, the results would be identical.

For the 1 ball shot, a player's body is behind the CB with the headed tilted to the right to see the visuals.
For the 2 ball shot, a player's body is clearly much more to the right of the cue ball than for the 1 ball.
The eyes are in different positions for each shot. The proper visuals are easily obtained for each shot. The table can dictate body and eye positioning and even the distance that eyes are from the CB. That is the nature of the rectanglular table.

Actually shot 2 could be played as a stop shot safety as I demoed on the DVD or possibly an iffy 4 rail bank. BUT, one must postion the eyes just as if they were shooting the 1 ball.


Just because a CB and an OB share a common distance and the same visuals does not mean the eyes will be postioned the same way for each shot. Perception is altered with varied eye positions. As I mentioned on the DVD the table will often dicate a player's ball address postion.

Very commendable work, AtLarge! The 2 shots you presented represent a great lesson in CTE/PRO ONE.

Stan
-------------------------------------------

The head tilted is a recuring instruction.

If the head is tilted, then the eyes are in a different location and thus the visual is altered to the side; and the secondary aim line is no longer directly on the aim point on the OB, say "B" for example.

If this is all one does without shifting the body to a new stance, then the result will be the same as if one didn't tilt the head.

If one the other hand, one tilts the head and aquires a new visual a bit off of point "B" and then moves the body accordingly to recapture point "B", then the cut angle will be different than if one didn't tilt the head etc..

I guess that one can tilt the head to move the eyes a small bit for a slightly different cut angle than the original aim point "B", and one can tilt the head to move the eyes even more for a larger "slightly" different cut angle.

The results of this progressive tilting of the head can be stored in memory for recalling later for 1/8, A, B, C and 1/8 along with pivoting left or pivoting right.

This is viable, is geometrically diagrammable for each shooter with different visuals i.e., left or right dominant eye or somewhere in between - though not parsimonious.

Viable for those that have mastered CTE/Pro-One.

Just saying without malice.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

dumluk


If you took this shot ( the 1 ball shot) to the table you would see without any doubt, the only way to obtain the visuals as a right hander is to tilt the head. IF the body were on the right side of the CB for this shot it would be almost physically impossible to execute.

stan shuffett
04-16-2011, 05:16 AM
I don't know whether "progressive tilting of the head" is a way Stan would recommend for achieving the multiple eye positions, and therefore multiple cut angles, within any single, fundamental instruction set (same two visuals and pivot direction). An alternative is simply shifting the head, and therefore the eyes, slightly laterally without altering the tilt of the head. I'm going to watch the DVD again sometime soon, trying to pay close attention to the eye positions for each shot.

As I stated on the DVD, thick shots to right, including straight-ins, for right handed players requires a tilting of the head to the right to obtain the visuals.

I said nothing about a progressive tilting of the head on the DVD and there is no such thing in CTE/PRO ONE. I can assure of that.

stan shuffett
04-16-2011, 05:18 AM
...CTE/PRO ONE is a VISUAL SYSTEM.

-------------------------------------------

The head tilted is a recuring instruction.


dumluk


Only for thick shots to the right for right handed players and reverse for left handed players.

stan shuffett
04-16-2011, 05:31 AM
I have Stan's DVD and watched it many times..and spoke to him on the phone on an issue that confused me and he took all the time necessary for me to understand it. To me trying CTE..ETE..90/90..whatever is that where ever you start your aim on the cue ball better be the exact same offset that you spot on the object ball. I know where Dave gets his half ball pivot as I get it from the same source.

I think Stan's system can be used as a complete system if the half tip offset helps you sight better, and it can be used as a reference point (A,B or B,C) after a larger pivot if you use a larger amount of offset to begin with..like the cueballs edge or half ball to start your pivot.

Nate, you are missing the point. The 1/2 tip offset is specific to CTE/PRO ONE. It is objective and it works for ALL shots in CTE/PRO ONE. Also, and extremely important to the CTE/PRO ONE 1/2 tip pivot is that the player always has the same visual offet for each shot and that allows for a uniform pivot in Basic CTE and in PRO ONE. Each PRO ONE pivot is equal to a 1/2 tip pivot. The shooter has the same movements over and over.

As I have stated many times there are a few objective visuals to learn and 2 physical PRO ONE movements to center cue ball that are well-defined and repeatable.

This is what works in CTE/PRO ONE.

Slide Rule
04-16-2011, 09:56 AM
A clarification that I am sure has been made previously.

In tilting the head are we looking at a head movement of yes or up an down, or a no movement as in shaking the head side to side?

I have been under the impression that it is a side movement. In other words is the issue one of placing the eyes on the same plane but by tilting side to side actually placing the eyes in a perspective that are closer together?

Or forbid, is it a combination?

stan shuffett
04-16-2011, 10:16 AM
A clarification that I am sure has been made previously.

In tilting the head are we looking at a head movement of yes or up an down, or a no movement as in shaking the head side to side?

I have been under the impression that it is a side movement. In other words is the issue one of placing the eyes on the same plane but by tilting side to side actually placing the eyes in a perspective that are closer together?

Or forbid, is it a combination?



It is a simple side movement. For a right-handed player to aim with the right edge of the cue ball, the eye positioning, typically for the right eye, is behind the right edge of the cue ball. In order to get the eyes to that position the body must slightly lean or the head can tilt. THe movement is seamless and virtually undetectable.......there is nothing weird about having the eyes at times behind the right edge of the cue ball.

AtLarge
04-16-2011, 10:20 AM
I thought that the Rosetta Stone of CTE/Pro-One was revealed by Stan to you, only to have him reject your understanding of what he said. ...

I don't think that's at all true. What he did not care for was my characterizing his use of the word "experience," or experience-based knowledge, as a type of "feel." My response to his objection is here: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=2965886&postcount=1037

What we received two nights ago from Stan was:
1. Confirmation that any one of the basic six alignments will produce the same cut angle every time if the eye position is the same every time (for the same CB-OB distance);
2. Instruction that it is by varying the eye position that the player is able to achieve varying cut angles for the same reference alignment (same set of visuals); and
3. Instruction that the knowledge needed to know the correct eye position for a given cut angle within a particular reference alignment comes from experience using the method.

AtLarge
04-16-2011, 10:26 AM
As I stated on the DVD, thick shots to right, including straight-ins, for right handed players requires a tilting of the head to the right to obtain the visuals.

I said nothing about a progressive tilting of the head on the DVD and there is no such thing in CTE/PRO ONE. I can assure of that.

[in response to "The head tilted is a recuring instruction."]
Only for thick shots to the right for right handed players and reverse for left handed players.

Thanks for that information, Stan. Every tip helps.

LAMas
04-16-2011, 10:32 AM
I don't think that's at all true. What he did not care for was my characterizing his use of the word "experience," or experience-based knowledge, as a type of "feel." My response to his objection is here: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=2965886&postcount=1037

What we received two nights ago from Stan was:
1. Confirmation that any one of the basic six alignments will produce the same cut angle every time if the eye position is the same every time (for the same CB-OB distance);
2. Instruction that it is by varying the eye position that the player is able to achieve varying cut angles for the same reference alignment (same set of visuals); and
3. Instruction that the knowledge needed to know the correct eye position for a given cut angle within a particular reference alignment comes from experience using the method.

OK I stand corrected.

In order to get the new perspective of the same fractional aim spot on the OB, he says to tilt the head/eyes. This will effectively move the eyes to the side and take your line of sight off of said spot.

From this new visual, one must move his body to the side to get the line of sight back on the spot.

I presume that this can be done while getting down on the shot and not after as I presumed before.

What I need to find oout for mayself is how much of a tilt will achieve a new cut angle from the same spot. The more the tilt (progressive) a greater cut angle is achieved (until my ear is on the top of my shoulder).:wink:

AtLarge
04-16-2011, 11:15 AM
... What I need to find oout for mayself is how much of a tilt will achieve a new cut angle from the same spot. The more the tilt (progressive) a greater cut angle is achieved (until my ear is on the top of my shoulder).:wink:

LAMas -- read Stan's posts #80 and #81 in this thread. Are you paying attention?:)

LAMas
04-16-2011, 11:41 AM
LAMas -- read Stan's posts #80 and #81 in this thread. Are you paying attention?:)

Too much so that I'm on tilt.

How much and how to tilt? Slide and I would like to know.

You have the DVD. Why don't you share this info?

I will try it for I think that tilting, as I understand it, can be proven to be effective at the table.

In earlier threads, the subject of visualizing the CTEL and the secondary aim line, I was told to not be square (to the cue) but to instead to bring my stance at 45 degrees to the cue which chages the position of the eyes for a different visual.

Now where's my cold Coors?:wink:

Firenback
04-16-2011, 01:47 PM
Keep the tips and the clarity coming. i need help..!

jwpretd
04-16-2011, 04:34 PM
How much and how to tilt? Slide and I would like to know.

You have the DVD. Why don't you share this info?


Because there isn't any info to share beyond what you've already been given several times.

Now where's my cold Coors?:wink:

Ah! That explains every thing.

By the way... You know they've fired the brewmaster at Coors, right? Guy's been there something like 35-40 years and wham! - right out on his butt.
:
:
:
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:
:
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They caught him putting malt and hops in the water.

LAMas
04-17-2011, 01:05 AM
Are you sure that he didn't hops into the water with a malt in hand.:wink:

gordml
04-18-2011, 05:25 PM
I've had Stan's DVD for about 2 weeks.
Sometimes it works sometimes I miss - but I know Im still learning.
Anyway I've been using the following drill lately.

First I use the 1 ball as a CB and shoot the white in the top corner pocket.
Then the 1 becomes the OB and I place that on the spot and shoot it with the 2.
Then I shoot the 2 with the 3 and so on.
the 2 through 7 is shot in the top corner.
The 9 through 15 is shot in the bottom corner.
Next time Im at the table I'll record what Pivots and Object Ball lines (A,B,C) Im using for each numbered ball, then update the thread

If anyone else wants to try this drill and compare notes, that would be
cool.

Thanks




http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AXtF4BUqb4CRgA4DOEf4EKdQ4FGtD1GCtB2HAQB3IEQC3JI pH3KMIV3LPjg3MSVD3NVPc3OXUC4PADX4UXtF3UALW4VUqb4VA LV4WRgA4WADX4XOEf4XALV4YKdQ4YADW3YALX4aGtD4aADX1bC tA4bADX2cAQB4cADX3dEQC4dADX3eIpH4eALX3fMIV4fADX3gP jg4gADV3hSVD4hALX3iVPc4iADW3jXUC4jADX4kADX3katg@

LAMas
04-18-2011, 06:12 PM
I've had Stan's DVD for about 2 weeks.
Sometimes it works sometimes I miss - but I know Im still learning.
Anyway I've been using the following drill lately.

First I use the 1 ball as a CB and shoot the white in the top corner pocket.
Then the 1 becomes the OB and I place that on the spot and shoot it with the 2.
Then I shoot the 2 with the 3 and so on.
the 2 through 7 is shot in the top corner.
The 9 through 15 is shot in the bottom corner.
Next time Im at the table I'll record what Pivots and Object Ball lines (A,B,C) Im using for each numbered ball, then update the thread

If anyone else wants to try this drill and compare notes, that would be
cool.

Thanks




http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AXtF4BUqb4CRgA4DOEf4EKdQ4FGtD1GCtB2HAQB3IEQC3JI pH3KMIV3LPjg3MSVD3NVPc3OXUC4PADX4UXtF3UALW4VUqb4VA LV4WRgA4WADX4XOEf4XALV4YKdQ4YADW3YALX4aGtD4aADX1bC tA4bADX2cAQB4cADX3dEQC4dADX3eIpH4eALX3fMIV4fADX3gP jg4gADV3hSVD4hALX3iVPc4iADW3jXUC4jADX4kADX3katg@

That will be very helpful. Do you know what the angles to the pocket from the CB are? Besides the secondary aim points on the OB as well as the pivot left or right, I would like to know how much you tilt your head on thick cuts.

Also what is the distance of your bridge behind the CB for each shot and where do you stroke your cue - under the right or left eye or somewhere in between?

Thanks in advance.:thumbup:

gordml
04-18-2011, 07:10 PM
That will be very helpful. Do you know what the angles to the pocket from the CB are? Besides the secondary aim points on the OB as well as the pivot left or right, I would like to know how much you tilt your head on thick cuts.

Also what is the distance of your bridge behind the CB for each shot and where do you sroke your cue - under the right or left eye or somewhere in between?

Thanks in advance.:thumbup:

Sure - do you know a good way to measure the angles?

AtLarge
04-18-2011, 07:38 PM
... Do you know what the angles to the pocket from the CB are? ...

LAMas -- I imagine that gordml intended for the the 1-ball through the 7-ball to be at the same angles to the top corner pocket as are the 15-ball through 9-ball to the bottom corner pocket. The actual graphic is a bit off from that. Using the Billiard Aiming Calculator, here are the angles I get for the shots pictured (you might get a degree or two different):

1-ball through 7-ball: 22, 14, 3, 14, 22, 34, 43 degrees to top left corner pocket

8-ball: 49 degrees to either left corner pocket

9-ball through 15-ball: 39, 30, 20, 12, 0, 13, 22 to bottom left corner pocket

My angles are measured as true cut angles (CB to GB to pocket) rather than with the lines drawn by gordml (CB to OB to pocket).

LAMas
04-18-2011, 08:35 PM
Billiard Aiming Calculator? What does it look like? It must be very accurate.

Although I wonder if the ball placements were meant to be a mirror image from the 8 ball +/- 1 or 2 degrees to the OB on the spot.

Yup, CB to GB and OB to pocket.

Thanks.:)

AtLarge
04-18-2011, 08:57 PM
Billiard Aiming Calculator? What does it look like? It must be very accurate. ...

http://pool.bz/Aiming-Calculator.php

LAMas
04-18-2011, 09:52 PM
Very nice Calculator.
Thanks.

Does it calculate CIT? It appears to be capable of doing CTE if you can pivot from the pivot point on the cue? I don't have time to play around with it tonight.:wink:

gordml
04-19-2011, 09:50 PM
Ok after reading some feedback from LAmas and AtLarge, I went back to the table to see if I could come up with an exercise
more consistent and objective, and one which we could all replicate easily.

I decided the best thing to do is get rid of the circle and just line the balls up from the second diamond to the centre of the table.

The one ball i tried to keep off the rail as much as possible but there is an exact straight line to the centre where the 15 is.
When lined up all balls are frozen to each other

I made 15 small marks with a piece of chalk.
So I had 15 shots placing my CB on each mark and shooting the OB on the spot.


http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AbPH4BYju4CWni4DVAW4ETEL4FRHy4GPDn4HNPd4ILcR4JJ gF4KHru4LFvj4MEAX4NCMM4OAQB4PATW4jAQB1jAYA4kATW4kA TW1lOno1lOvo1mAcm1mAcl@

LAMas
04-19-2011, 10:29 PM
gordml,
I opened your word doc and I now get it:

1 L 1/8 R = Left edge of the CB aimed at the right 1/8 of the OB, shift 1/2 tip to the left of center of CB and pivot right to the center of the CB.

Shots 4, 5 and 6 are the same but achieve different cut angles? Are you making some slight adjustments?
4 L C L
5 L C L
6 L C L

Shots 12 and 13 are also the same.
12 R A R
13 R A R

The distance between the CB and OB makes a difference and why I liked that you put the CBs on an arc in your first excercise that made the distance between the CB and OB the same or 25 inches (2 spots on a 9 foot table).

I duplicated your first excercise in Acad but put the CBs 10 degrees in between to the next CB etc. - close to what you placed in your excercise.

I am still interested in the results of your first excercise i.e., 1 L A L etc. as you did in your second excercise.

I don't know where this is taking me/us but to normalize the results, can you put the 15 balls on an arc of 25 inches (2 spots) in your second excercise to see if the results change - perhaps fewer duplications?

Do you stroke your cue below a dominant eye or in between both eyes below the center of your chin?

Thanks in advance...have fun.:wink:

AtLarge
04-19-2011, 11:12 PM
gordml -- If I understand you correctly, you are shooting all 15 shots into the upper-left corner pocket, correct? You could do it either of the following ways: (1) Shoot the CB into that pocket with each numbered OB in the spot shown on your graphic (which would mean retrieving the CB from the pocket each time) or (2) Place each numbered OB on the footspot and shoot it with the CB placed where the numbered ball is on your graphic (I think this is the way you indicated to do it).

If I have that correct, then I think you have a problem with the shot nomenclature. To me, and to mohrt on the shot worksheet from the DVD, the three components for a shot are as follows:
- The first component is the side of the OB for the center-to-edge line. So for a cut to the left, the indicator is "R," because the CTEL goes from the center of the CB to the right edge of the OB. For a cut to the right, the indicator is "L."
- The second component is the point on the OB for the secondary alignment line, which runs to that point from the inside edge of the CB (the edge closer to the target). "A" is 1/4-ball width from the left edge of the OB, "B" is center OB, and "C" is 1/4-ball width from the right edge of the OB.
- The third component is for the pre-pivot offset, so "L" means the stick is offset 1/2-tip to the left of center CB and then the tip is pivoted from left to right to get to center CB.

Example: L/C/R means CTEL to Left side of OB, right edge of CB to point C, and stick offset 1/2-tip to Right of center prior to pivot. This is a cut to the right.

I think you may also have a misunderstanding on the use of the 1/8 alignment. For these shots, there is no center-to-edge visual, because it would be off the OB into space. Instead, Stan uses a single alignment line or visual, which is to align the 1/8th point on the CB with the opposite 1/8th point on the OB, offset 1/2-tip to one side or the other, pivot, and shoot.

So ........... to be consistent with prior shot descriptions, and with Stan, I think you would need to change your three-component descriptions for each shot. And you might also need to change your visuals for thin shots (to use 1/8 to 1/8 rather than edge to 1/8).

gordml
04-19-2011, 11:19 PM
gordml,


Shots 4, 5 and 6 are the same but achieve different cut angles? Are you making some slight adjustments?
4 L C L
5 L C L
6 L C L


No adjustments.
I know that's confusing.
Each shot is L C L , but the cue ball is in a different place so its a different shot.
Its weird - but it seems to work......

I used to align with my right dominant eye, but a few years ago I switched
to using both eyes.Its a personal preference and I think its irrelevant for CTE
Ill try my circle exercise later.

gordml
04-19-2011, 11:51 PM
gordml -- If I understand you correctly, you are shooting all 15 shots into the upper-left corner pocket, correct? You could do it either of the following ways: (1) Shoot the CB into that pocket with each numbered OB in the spot shown on your graphic (which would mean retrieving the CB from the pocket each time) or (2) Place each numbered OB on the footspot and shoot it with the CB placed where the numbered ball is on your graphic (I think this is the way you indicated to do it).

If I have that correct, then I think you have a problem with the shot nomenclature. To me, and to mohrt on the shot worksheet from the DVD, the three components for a shot are as follows:
- The first component is the side of the OB for the center-to-edge line. So for a cut to the left, the indicator is "R," because the CTEL goes from the center of the CB to the right edge of the OB. For a cut to the right, the indicator is "L."
- The second component is the point on the OB for the secondary alignment line, which runs to that point from the inside edge of the CB (the edge closer to the target). "A" is 1/4-ball width from the left edge of the OB, "B" is center OB, and "C" is 1/4-ball width from the right edge of the OB.
- The third component is for the pre-pivot offset, so "L" means the stick is offset 1/2-tip to the left of center CB and then the tip is pivoted from left to right to get to center CB.

Example: L/C/R means CTEL to Left side of OB, right edge of CB to point C, and stick offset 1/2-tip to Right of center prior to pivot. This is a cut to the right.

I think you may also have a misunderstanding on the use of the 1/8 alignment. For these shots, there is no center-to-edge visual, because it would be off the OB into space. Instead, Stan uses a single alignment line or visual, which is to overlap 1/8 of the CB with the opposite 1/8 of the OB, offset 1/2-tip to one side or the other, pivot, and shoot.

So ........... to be consistent with prior shot descriptions, and with Stan, I think you would need to change your three-component descriptions for each shot. And you might also need to change your visuals for thin shots (to use 1/8 to 1/8 rather than edge to 1/8).


I agree on both points.
I have reversed the L's and the R's in the first column. and for 1/8 shots there is no CCB to ROBE.
was able to edit post #100 . Sorry about the discrepency
Thank You.

pablocruz
04-20-2011, 01:12 AM
Ok after reading some feedback from LAmas and AtLarge, I went back to the table to see if I could come up with an exercise
more consistent and objective, and one which we could all replicate easily.

I decided the best thing to do is get rid of the circle and just line the balls up from the second diamond to the centre of the table.

The one ball i tried to keep off the rail as much as possible but there is an exact straight line to the centre where the 15 is.
When lined up all balls are frozen to each other

I made 15 small marks with a piece of chalk.
So I had 15 shots placing my CB on each mark and shooting the OB on the spot.


http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AbPH4BYju4CWni4DVAW4ETEL4FRHy4GPDn4HNPd4ILcR4JJ gF4KHru4LFvj4MEAX4NCMM4OAQB4PATW4jAQB1jAYA4kATW4kA TW1lOno1lOvo1mAcm1mAcl@

This chart shows the offsets used for each shot. Its too bad I couldn't put spaces in between the values -so I attached a Word version for easier readability.


Shot CTEL OB Pos. Pivot
1 1/8 1/8 R
2 1/8 1/8 L
3 R C R
4 R C L
5 R C L
6 R C L
7 L C R
8 L C L
9 L B R
10 L B L
11 L B R
12 L A R
13 L A R
14 1/8 1/8 R
15 1/8 1/8 L


Anyway I was very pleased.
I found that I could align the CTE with the correct OB Position pretty
easily and that it was obvious.
Also my confidence was unusually high in making the shots. I really started to feel strong and remembered Stan's ref to "Lock and Load".On some I felt like a Larry Nevel and was firing them in!
I also started to see a pattern - if the shot looked too thin I would pivot from the outside/in to "thicken" the shot. If it looked too thick I would pivot in/out to cut it thinner.
example:
both shot 3 and 4 are aligned OBP = C.
3 looked too thin so I pivot right.
4 looked too thick so I pivot left.

Im not exactly sure about the last point as Stan never mentioned
you pivot to compensate - its just that when I was studying the chart
this is how it looks.

Id appreciate anyone else trying this exercise just to see what OBP and pivot is used with other shooters :thumbup:
Thanks
Gordon
P.S. ..and no Larry I'm not ready to play you yet.

You're Word document doesn't match your post! And how do
you come up with a Left A and a left C?? And what does OBP
stand for? This would be all too confusing for someone new at
CTE/Pro-One!! Wouldn't it make it easier for all if everyone stuck
to Stan's version?

JE54
04-20-2011, 03:20 AM
Does anybody once they see the correct ctel, put their foot in a certain spot so that each time they have the correct ctel their body is always in the same position ?

Patrick Johnson
04-20-2011, 03:59 AM
AtLarge:
I think you may also have a misunderstanding on the use of the 1/8 alignment. For these shots, there is no center-to-edge visual, because it would be off the OB into space.
What does this mean? How can a CTE visual be off the OB?

pj
chgo

daphish1
04-20-2011, 05:04 AM
I think you missed the part of the post where he said "there is no center-to-edge visual" and the other part where it said "you may also have a misunderstanding on the use of the 1/8 alignment"

pablocruz
04-20-2011, 05:14 AM
I think you missed the part of the post where he said "there is no center-to-edge visual" and the other part where it said "you may also have a misunderstanding on the use of the 1/8 alignment"

Of course he did!! He knows no other way than to take things out of context!!

Patrick Johnson
04-20-2011, 06:17 AM
AtLarge:
I think you may also have a misunderstanding on the use of the 1/8 alignment. For these shots, there is no center-to-edge visual, because it would be off the OB into space.
Me:
What does this mean? How can a CTE visual be off the OB?
daphish1:
I think you missed the part of the post where he said "there is no center-to-edge visual"
I think you missed the part where he said the CTE visual "would be off the OB".

If the CTE "visual" could even theoretically "be off the OB", then the CTE visual isn't the CTE line - and that difference applies to every other shot.

pj
chgo

daphish1
04-20-2011, 07:00 AM
I think you missed the part where he said the CTE visual "would be off the OB".

If the CTE "visual" could even theoretically "be off the OB", then the CTE visual isn't the CTE line - and that difference applies to every other shot.

pj
chgo

In my example below, talking about a cut to the left.

The thinner cut visuals for standard CTE are center of cue ball to the edge of the object ball and aim point B. So if you take those same visual lines and tried to move them to 1/8 ball cut then the CTE of the cue ball would be off the ball. There aren't any CTE visuals for a left cut using aim point C or the 1/8.

This is how I understand it, I’ve only been using CTE/PRO1 for a few weeks so some more experienced might better explain it or correct me if I’m wrong.

It’d be something like this:

http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr180/daphish21/1-8cte.jpg

Patrick Johnson
04-20-2011, 08:06 AM
In my example below, talking about a cut to the left.

The thinner cut visuals for standard CTE are center of cue ball to the edge of the object ball and aim point B. So if you take those same visual lines and tried to move them to 1/8 ball cut then the CTE of the cue ball would be off the ball. There aren't any CTE visuals for a left cut using aim point C or the 1/8.

This is how I understand it, I’ve only been using CTE/PRO1 for a few weeks so some more experienced might better explain it or correct me if I’m wrong.

It’d be something like this:

http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr180/daphish21/1-8cte.jpg
You remember that CTE stands for Center-to-Edge, right? The CTE line is the line from the CB's center to the OB's edge.

Why would the CTE "visual" be the CTE line for both aimpoints A & B, but suddenly change for aimpoint 1/8?

How does it make any sense for any CTE "visual" to be anything but the CTE line?

pj
chgo

Neil
04-20-2011, 08:13 AM
..................

Patrick Johnson
04-20-2011, 08:14 AM
Classic example of nothing more than a nitpicker. You have stated many times that you have no desire to even try the system. So, your only goal in all of this is to see what you can nitpick in someones wording to TRY and discredit the system. You read every post with that soley in mind, "how can I nitpick this?". Really pretty petty and pathetic Patrick.:(
In other words, you can't answer the question.

Thanks for your input, Neil.

pj
chgo

Neil
04-20-2011, 08:18 AM
...............

daphish1
04-20-2011, 08:23 AM
You remember that CTE stands for Center-to-Edge, right? The CTE line is the line from the CB's center to the OB's edge.

Why would the CTE "visual" be the CTE line for both aimpoints A & B, but suddenly change for aimpoint 1/8?

How does it make any sense for any CTE "visual" to be anything but the CTE line?

pj
chgo

Would it help you if I edited my post and took the letters CTE out and replaced them with PRO1 (since that's what I use). Then maybe your confusion will go away?

In PRO1 for 1/8 cut there is NO CTE line used.

SpiderWebComm
04-20-2011, 08:28 AM
There are a few ways to accomplish the same thing--- in lieu of 1/8th on the thin side, you can sight B and pivot away from the pocket, past center, to the opposite side of the CB.

JoeyA
04-20-2011, 08:44 AM
Would it help you if I edited my post and took the letters CTE out and replaced them with PRO1 (since that's what I use). Then maybe your confusion will go away?

In PRO1 for 1/8 cut there is NO CTE line used.

Patrick and his gang of naysayers are losing their grip in more ways than one.

You are quite correct about the 1/8 ball shots not having a CTE perspective because those shots are the exception.

Patrick is purposefully trying to confuse people about CTE/Pro One. He wants to squeeze his quasi-feel business that he has made up in his head to discredit CTE/Pro One, but he continues to lose ground everyday. :D:D:D

JoeyA

Patrick Johnson
04-20-2011, 09:25 AM
The "system" is named Center To Edge. That does not mean that every shot in the system is center to edge. Real thin cuts are the exception.
What does it mean to say a shot "is center to edge"?

On his DVD Stan says the same thing AtLarge did: "the CTE visual is off the OB" for thin cuts. In fact, he says that's the reason for using the 1/8 aim point. So once again, how can a "CTE visual" be "off the OB"? You can choose to use it or not, but it's never "off the OB" - unless "CTE visual" means something other than "CTE line". Does it mean something different for every shot?

But, you already knew that, and just want to be a dick.;)
And, it's not that I couldn't answer it, as I just did.
You tried to be a dick (successfully) and then tried to answer (unsuccessfully).

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson
04-20-2011, 09:28 AM
Would it help you if I edited my post and took the letters CTE out and replaced them with PRO1 (since that's what I use). Then maybe your confusion will go away?

In PRO1 for 1/8 cut there is NO CTE line used.
I don't believe I'm the one who's confused. My questions are clear and concise. I haven't seen any answers yet that fit that description.

pj
chgo

stan shuffett
04-20-2011, 09:38 AM
What does it mean to say a shot "is center to edge"?

On his DVD Stan says the same thing AtLarge did: "the CTE visual is off the OB" for thin cuts. In fact, he says that's the reason for using the 1/8 aim point. So once again, how can a "CTE visual" be "off the OB"? You can choose to use it or not, but it's never "off the OB" - unless "CTE visual" means something other than "CTE line". Does it mean something different for every shot?


pj
chgo

A center to edge shot is any shot that is made using a CTE visual with an appropriate OB aim point of A,B or C,B. These visuals work up to and including thin shots.

Thin cuts become "very thin" when an aim point of B on the OB will not make the shot with a very strict 1/2 tip pivot. At the point that B does not work for a left or right cut in CTE/PRO ONE , instructions are to go straight to the 1/8 overlap visual where there is no CTE visual. Again, this is an adjustment to CTE.

Stan

AtLarge
04-20-2011, 10:06 AM
What does it mean to say a shot "is center to edge"?

On his DVD Stan says the same thing AtLarge did: "the CTE visual is off the OB" for thin cuts. In fact, he says that's the reason for using the 1/8 aim point. So once again, how can a "CTE visual" be "off the OB"? You can choose to use it or not, but it's never "off the OB" - unless "CTE visual" means something other than "CTE line". Does it mean something different for every shot?


You tried to be a dick (successfully) and then tried to answer (unsuccessfully).

pj
chgo

I agree that neither my language in the post you refer to, nor Stan's similar language in the DVD, was precise enough for some readers/listeners. I'll try again.

For very thin cuts, one simply aligns the 1/8th point on the inside of the CB with the 1/8th point on the outside of the OB, offsets the stick 1/2-tip either inside or outside as the shot requires, pivots to center CB, and shoots.

These shots require only a single visual (1/8 to 1/8), not two. As such, these are not "center-to-edge" shots, as there is no CTE visual used for them, i.e., no CTEL. My interpretation for the reason for this is that the 1/8 point and the OB edge are so close together that if you align visually on 1/8 to 1/8, you can't simultaneously see a line from CB center to OB edge. [Of course, on paper you could draw the two lines.]

I try not to be unclear or ambiguous. Any time I am, just ask.

Patrick Johnson
04-20-2011, 10:12 AM
I agree that neither my language in the post you refer to, nor Stan's similar language in the DVD, was precise enough for some readers/listeners. I'll try again.

For very thin cuts, one simply aligns the 1/8th point on the inside of the CB with the 1/8th point on the outside of the OB, offsets the stick 1/2-tip either inside or outside as the shot requires, pivots to center CB, and shoots.

These shots require only a single visual (1/8 to 1/8), not two. As such, these are not "center-to-edge" shots, as there is no CTE visual used for them, i.e., no CTEL. My interpretation for the reason for this is that the 1/8 point and the OB edge are so close together that if you align visually on 1/8 to 1/8, you can't simultaneously see a line from CB center to OB edge. [Of course, on paper you could draw the two lines.]

I try not to be unclear or ambiguous. Any time I am, just ask.
Thanks for the clarification. But it raises another question:

Since only the 1/8-1/8 line is used for this shot (no CTE line), and since the 1/8-1/8 line is parallel to the edge-C line (and presumably would result in seeing the same CB center), why switch to the 1/8-1/8 line?

pj
chgo

LAMas
04-20-2011, 10:20 AM
Thanks for the clarification. But it raises another question:

Since only the 1/8-1/8 line is used for this shot (no CTE line), and since the 1/8-1/8 line is parallel to the edge-C line (and presumably would result in seeing the same CB center), why switch to the 1/8-1/8 line?

pj
chgo

Perhaps not since the CB appears to be larger than the small OB down table, the 1/8 distance on the CB to it's edge is larger than the smaller appearing OB distance from it's 1/8 to "C".:thumbup:

This implys that one has to rotate his body about the CB a fraction more when moving to sight the edge of the CB to "C" than for 1/8 to 1/8.

Now where's that cold one.:)

stan shuffett
04-20-2011, 10:20 AM
I agree that neither my language in the post you refer to, nor Stan's similar language in the DVD, was precise enough for some readers/listeners. I'll try again.

For very thin cuts, one simply aligns the 1/8th point on the inside of the CB with the 1/8th point on the outside of the OB, offsets the stick 1/2-tip either inside or outside as the shot requires, pivots to center CB, and shoots.

These shots require only a single visual (1/8 to 1/8), not two. As such, these are not "center-to-edge" shots, as there is no CTE visual used for them, i.e., no CTEL. My interpretation for the reason for this is that the 1/8 point and the OB edge are so close together that if you align visually on 1/8 to 1/8, you can't simultaneously see a line from CB center to OB edge. [Of course, on paper you could draw the two lines.]

I try not to be unclear or ambiguous. Any time I am, just ask.

AtLarge,

The 1/8 CB/OB ball overlap is simple. 12.5% of the CB overlaps 12.5% of the OB.

Another way to put it is like this: For a very thin left cut, the left edge of a CB would be aimed at the 1/8 point of an OB. This will produce the 1/8 visual overlap.

Stan

AtLarge
04-20-2011, 10:30 AM
AtLarge,

The 1/8 CB/OB ball overlap is simple. 12.5% of the CB overlaps 12.5% of the OB.

Another way to put it is like this: For a very thin left cut, the left edge of a CB would be aimed at the 1/8 point of an OB. This will produce the 1/8 visual overlap.

Stan

Ah ha! So what daphish1 drew in post 111 is correct. I thought one was supposed to aim the 1/8 point at the 1/8 point, which, clearly, is not really overlapping 1/8 of each ball (and was giving me trouble in trying to make extremely thin cuts). I think that makes Dr. Dave's summary incorrect in this regard as well.

Thank you, Stan.

stan shuffett
04-20-2011, 10:34 AM
Ah ha! So what daphish1 drew in post 111 is correct. I thought one was supposed to aim the 1/8 point at the 1/8 point, which, clearly, is not really overlapping 1/8 of each ball (and was giving me trouble in trying to make extremely thin cuts). I think that makes Dr. Dave's summary incorrect in this regard as well.

Thank you, Stan.

You are welcome, AtLarge.

Thanks for starting this thread. I appreciate very much what you had to say in your initial post.

Stan

champ2107
04-20-2011, 10:35 AM
That 111 post looks wrong to me? is it not a 1/8 kitty corner visual?

scottjen26
04-20-2011, 12:00 PM
Yea, the 1/8 thing got me as well.

AtLarge, I think you mentioned one time that it was 1/8 to 1/8, which would be the same as C or 1/4 ball overlap. I was not as successful on these really thin shots so I figured I was doing it wrong. Emailed Stan to be sure, and he set me straight (as above), that it's really a 1/8 or 12.5% overlap. In practice, I find it easier to visualize the line of the 1/8 spot on the cue ball pointing at the edge of the OB, that seems to set up the correct initial thickness, not sure if this changes the visuals slightly versus a true overlap but seems to work.

I'm much more successful now on very thin shots. I can set up what looks like a dead bank in the side with the OB 1 or 2 balls off the rail and cut it up in the far corner using the 1/8 overlap probably 6 or 7 out of 10 times, and the times I miss it's just barely. Certainly better than I would have done by guessing before. I've also set up some pretty long, thin cuts down the length of the table and even with the distance and preciseness needed I'm making 3 or 4 out of 10 of these impossible looking cuts. Certainly helps to have a frame of reference instead of just imagining hitting the ball ultra thin. Hitting center ball instead of trying to use outside to spin it or inside to allow deflection to help with a thinner hit helps with the consistency as well.


As to the other poster with the diagrams of gradually changing shots in a line or arc around a constant object ball - I did something similar, posted it in one of these threads… For me, exercises like that helped me firm up when to transition from one aim point or pivot to another, and also reaffirmed that the various lines and pivots were indeed working to make the object ball. I also used the Cuetable Aim calculator to approximate the angles, although in practice I find that the specific angle of the shot is not necessarily a definitive line that tells you when to change pivots or aim points and it can be somewhat dependent on the visual angle instead.

Scott

LAMas
04-20-2011, 12:39 PM
Yea, the 1/8 thing got me as well.

AtLarge, I think you mentioned one time that it was 1/8 to 1/8, which would be the same as C or 1/4 ball overlap. I was not as successful on these really thin shots so I figured I was doing it wrong. Emailed Stan to be sure, and he set me straight (as above), that it's really a 1/8 or 12.5% overlap. In practice, I find it easier to visualize the line of the 1/8 spot on the cue ball pointing at the edge of the OB, that seems to set up the correct initial thickness, not sure if this changes the visuals slightly versus a true overlap but seems to work.

I'm much more successful now on very thin shots. I can set up what looks like a dead bank in the side with the OB 1 or 2 balls off the rail and cut it up in the far corner using the 1/8 overlap probably 6 or 7 out of 10 times, and the times I miss it's just barely. Certainly better than I would have done by guessing before. I've also set up some pretty long, thin cuts down the length of the table and even with the distance and preciseness needed I'm making 3 or 4 out of 10 of these impossible looking cuts. Certainly helps to have a frame of reference instead of just imagining hitting the ball ultra thin. Hitting center ball instead of trying to use outside to spin it or inside to allow deflection to help with a thinner hit helps with the consistency as well.


As to the other poster with the diagrams of gradually changing shots in a line or arc around a constant object ball - I did something similar, posted it in one of these threads… For me, exercises like that helped me firm up when to transition from one aim point or pivot to another, and also reaffirmed that the various lines and pivots were indeed working to make the object ball. I also used the Cuetable Aim calculator to approximate the angles, although in practice I find that the specific angle of the shot is not necessarily a definitive line that tells you when to change pivots or aim points and it can be somewhat dependent on the visual angle instead.

Scott

Scott,
I quote you:
"I think you mentioned one time that it was 1/8 to 1/8, which would be the same as C or 1/4 ball overlap."

More than that, aiming 1/8 CB to 1/8 OB (with no edge of the CB involved)would be the same as contact point to contact point aiming and if you can do that then CPTCP aiming is more parsimonious.

The Cue Table Aim Calculator does not account for cut induced throw (CIT) and you will undercut most shots especially if stun is involved.

Thanks.:)

mohrt
04-20-2011, 12:42 PM
If you're on a PC, hit the PrintScreen key (usually abbreviated as "Prt Scr"), which copies an image of what's on your screen onto your Windows Clipboard. Then open the Paint program that comes with Windows and Paste the image into that program. Then you can print it, save it, etc.

pj
chgo

If you are on a mac, shift-command-4 will give you a sight-scope looking cursor. Then click-drag a rectangle around what you want to snapshot (the table) and it will save the image to your desktop.

AtLarge
04-20-2011, 01:04 PM
Yea, the 1/8 thing got me as well.

AtLarge, I think you mentioned one time that it was 1/8 to 1/8, ...

I'm much more successful now on very thin shots. ...

I find that the specific angle of the shot is not necessarily a definitive line that tells you when to change pivots or aim points and it can be somewhat dependent on the visual angle instead.

Scott

Scott, sorry for misleading you. So it's inside CB edge to outside OB 1/8 (or, perhaps pretty much the same thing, inside CB 1/8 to outside OB edge). I hope Dr. Dave reads these posts today and revises his summary tables, so other readers are not also misled. Maybe now I'll quit undercutting the real thin cuts so often when I try them with Stan's CTE.

And I agree with you that determining when to shift from one alignment-menu option to another seems not to be driven purely by cut angle. CB-OB distance may be a factor as well. I need a lot more experience-driven knowledge regarding eye position to make the method work better for me.

AtLarge
04-20-2011, 01:13 PM
... aiming 1/8 CB to 1/8 OB (with no edge of the CB involved)would be the same as contact point to contact point aiming and if you can do that then CPTCP aiming is more parsimonious.

The Cue Table Aim Calculator does not account for cut induced throw (CIT) and you will undercut most shots especially if stun is involved.

Thanks.:)

A pivot is (or was) used, so it is (or was) still a bit different from CP to CP.

I agree regarding the Calculator; it is giving the cut angles needed assuming no CIT and no spin on the CB.

Neil
04-20-2011, 01:19 PM
.............

LAMas
04-20-2011, 01:19 PM
A pivot is (or was) used, so it is (or was) still a bit different from CP to CP.

I agree regarding the Calculator; it is giving the cut angles needed assuming no CIT and no spin on the CB.

I concur for with the "air pivot", the 1\2 tip lateral shift from center and left or right pivot aren't required (I read), but few here are posting about the "air pivot" which looks like CPTCP.:)

Thanks.

AtLarge
04-20-2011, 01:28 PM
Stan has said that his system works best at about two feet apart and more. I have found that for balls about a foot apart or so, I can get the same results using a full tip of pivot rather than a half tip.

Now, I'm NOT saying it will work on all close shots. I haven't tested it that much. This is just a tip for those that are actually using it. It works for me, and might for you too.

Neil, it sounds like you are keeping your bridge length the same for the close shots and altering the size of the offset.

Stan, on the other hand, keeps the offset constant at 1/2-tip, and alters the bridge length, getting quite short for small CB-OB distances.

stan shuffett
04-20-2011, 01:30 PM
Neil, I misled you if I indicated the system is best at 2 feet and beyond. I play lots of 14.1 and 1 pocket and I see no limits with distance until the cb/OB become extremely close together, perhaps the distance of a cube of chalk. The 1/2 tip pivot is effective for short as well as long distances.

Stan

Neil
04-20-2011, 01:34 PM
..............

dr_dave
04-20-2011, 01:37 PM
The 1/8 CB/OB ball overlap is simple. 12.5% of the CB overlaps 12.5% of the OB.

Another way to put it is like this: For a very thin left cut, the left edge of a CB would be aimed at the 1/8 point of an OB. This will produce the 1/8 visual overlap.I thought one was supposed to aim the 1/8 point at the 1/8 point, which, clearly, is not really overlapping 1/8 of each ball (and was giving me trouble in trying to make extremely thin cuts). I think that makes Dr. Dave's summary incorrect in this regard as well.AtLarge,

Thank you for helping to clarify things with Stan. I did not interpret it this way from the DVD in my early viewings, but I plan to watch the DVD again with this in mind.

FYI, I've revised the summary of Stan's version of CTE (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#ProOne) on the website. I think it is now in line with Stan's clarifications.

AtLarge, Stan, or others familiar with CTE, please read through the revised version and let me know if you have any additional corrections or suggestions for further improvement (dealing with any aspect of the summary).

Regards,
Dave

stan shuffett
04-20-2011, 01:45 PM
I keep my bridge length/pivot distance the same. Do you? Or do you recommend a different bridge length? I can't remember right now, and can't go back through the DVD for a while.

Neil,


In manual CTE, the bridge distance must vary for the strict 1/2 tip pivot as the chart indicates.

In PRO ONE, I do not limit myself to specific bridge distances, but for short type shots, I typically use shorter bridge lengths.

Stan

LAMas
04-20-2011, 01:49 PM
Stan has said that his system works best at about two feet apart and more. I have found that for balls about a foot apart or so, I can get the same results using a full tip of pivot rather than a half tip.

Now, I'm NOT saying it will work on all close shots. I haven't tested it that much. This is just a tip for those that are actually using it. It works for me, and might for you too.

I have graphic evidence in ACAD that a larger lateral shift is desired when the CB and OB are close together. At large separations like 6 feet the shift can be less tha 1/2 tip with similar cut angles as 2 feet....but I digress.:wink:

stan shuffett
04-20-2011, 02:08 PM
The larger lateral shift is not needed. I covered that on the DVD. 1/2 tip pivot works as prescribed.

Neil
04-20-2011, 02:16 PM
...............

AtLarge
04-20-2011, 02:18 PM
I have graphic evidence in ACAD that a larger lateral shift is desired when the CB and OB are close together. At large separations like 6 feet the shift can be less tha 1/2 tip with similar cut angles as 2 feet....but I digress.:wink:

LAMas -- when you did that, weren't you keeping a constant bridge length? Stan's recommendation is for bridge lengths that vary with CB-OB distance (shorter when the balls are closer together). See the DVD or Dr. Dave's summary for the recommended bridge lengths.

LAMas
04-20-2011, 03:01 PM
LAMas -- when you did that, weren't you keeping a constant bridge length? Stan's recommendation is for bridge lengths that vary with CB-OB distance (shorter when the balls are closer together). See the DVD or Dr. Dave's summary for the recommended bridge lengths.

You are correct sir.
I was replying in a positive manner to Neil - who wrote:
"...I keep my bridge length/pivot distance the same..."

I was in concurrence with what Neil had found out for himself in mastering CTE at the table. There is geometric evidence in his self discovery.

I was just saying.:thumbup:

dr_dave
04-20-2011, 03:13 PM
AtLarge,

Thank you for helping to clarify things with Stan. I did not interpret it this way from the DVD in my early viewings, but I plan to watch the DVD again with this in mind.

FYI, I've revised the summary of Stan's version of CTE (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#ProOne) on the website. I think it is now in line with Stan's clarifications.

AtLarge, Stan, or others familiar with CTE, please read through the revised version and let me know if you have any additional corrections or suggestions for further improvement (dealing with any aspect of the summary).

Regards,
DaveFYI, I just made some additional revisions, based on some PM input I received. I think the summary (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#ProOne) is fairly good now, based on clarifications from Stan and others.

Regards,
Dave

LAMas
04-20-2011, 09:19 PM
Stan has said that his system works best at about two feet apart and more. I have found that for balls about a foot apart or so, I can get the same results using a full tip of pivot rather than a half tip.

Now, I'm NOT saying it will work on all close shots. I haven't tested it that much. This is just a tip for those that are actually using it. It works for me, and might for you too.

Neil,
I know that you were using CTE before the DVD and were looking for a version of CTE where you could use your normal bridge distance behind the CB for all CTE cut angles.

As you said,"...This is just a tip for those that are actually using it. It works for me, and might for you too."

I am a casual user of your/this version of CTE and have found that to achieve the same cut angles at 2 feet with a 1/2 tip offset pre-pivot, one can use a full tip offset at 1 foot separation and achieve the same cut angles as those at 2 feet.

At a 3 foot separation, the offset is reduced to 1/4 tip and at a 4 foot separation, the offset is reduced to 1/8 etc. I have graphed this for different cut angles and they follow simlar curves and for thin cuts, the offset at 1 foot can be as large as 1 1/2 tip offset.

If you spend time at the table, and persist with this discovery, I would like to read about your progress on this version of CTE/Neil.:):thumbup:

gordml
04-20-2011, 10:04 PM
Please ignore

Bdrum419
04-20-2011, 11:56 PM
Does Stan have a website?

pablocruz
04-21-2011, 03:41 AM
Does Stan have a website?

http://www.justcueit.com/

pablocruz
04-21-2011, 03:57 AM
FYI, I just made some additional revisions, based on some PM input I received. I think the summary (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#ProOne) is fairly good now, based on clarifications from Stan and others.

Regards,
Dave

Your summary is neither concise nor complete!! In fact you have so much misleading information
that it would be hard for someone to even fathom of learning CTE/Pro-One from this website!!

pablocruz
04-21-2011, 03:59 AM
Neil,
I know that you were using CTE before the DVD and were looking for a version of CTE where you could use your normal bridge distance behind the CB for all CTE cut angles.

As you said,"...This is just a tip for those that are actually using it. It works for me, and might for you too."

I am a casual user of your/this version of CTE and have found that to achieve the same cut angles at 2 feet with a 1/2 tip offset pre-pivot, one can use a full tip offset at 1 foot separation and achieve the same cut angles as those at 2 feet.

At a 3 foot separation, the offset is reduced to 1/4 tip and at a 4 foot separation, the offset is reduced to 1/8 etc. I have graphed this for different cut angles and they follow simlar curves and for thin cuts, the offset at 1 foot can be as large as 1 1/2 tip offset.

If you spend time at the table, and persist with this discovery, I would like to read about your progress on this version of CTE/Neil.:):thumbup:

LaMas, if you're that exact with tip offsets. Why would you even bother since you're so proficient with double the distance and ghostball........... I want lessons!!

dr_dave
04-21-2011, 08:14 AM
FYI, I've revised the summary of Stan's version of CTE (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#ProOne) on the website. I think it is now in line with Stan's clarifications.

AtLarge, Stan, or others familiar with CTE, please read through the revised version and let me know if you have any additional corrections or suggestions for further improvement (dealing with any aspect of the summary).FYI, more improvements were made this morning. I think the summary (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#ProOne) is now as simple and concise as possible, while still capturing the complete essence of Stan's manual CTE system.

BTW, I received a couple of PMs from people claiming the summary hasn't changed. This might be the case for you if you've viewed the summary in the past and your browser is accessing a cached (old) copy of the page. To see the latest version, you might have to Refresh or Reload the page (and you might need to hold down the Shift key while you click on the Reload or Refresh button to force the update).

Please let me know if you have any corrections or suggestions for further improvement and/or simplification.

IMO, recent CTE threads have been very helpful in further defining and clarifying the details of Stan's version of CTE (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#ProOne).

Thanks,
Dave

LAMas
04-21-2011, 08:41 AM
LaMas, if you're that exact with tip offsets. Why would you even bother since you're so proficient with double the distance and ghostball........... I want lessons!!

Pablo,
Thanks for your help in the past before the DVD.
Yes I am a DD and GB aim shooter and as I have said before, I look to CTE for thin cuts over 30 degrees where I can aim at fractional points on the OB instead of the green felt jungle outside of the edge of the OB.

I have said for the last year or so that CTE works and have had help from several users. I had hoped to diagram CTE to show that it can be geometrically correct. I now realize that there are perception differences that will result in different resulting cut angles for the shooter.

If the bridge distance behind the CB remains constant and the location of the cue under or between the eyes is known - I can diagram that for the shooter, not that anyone really cares for if it works why should it?

Thanks Pablo for your help.:):thumbup:

JoeyA
04-21-2011, 05:49 PM
I guess Patrick has been run out of this thread on a rail....... chuckles (a term Hal Houle used to use)

lfigueroa
04-21-2011, 05:59 PM
I guess Patrick has been run out of this thread on a rail....... chuckles (a term Hal Houle used to use)


Wouldn't hurt if that happened to you ;-)

Lou Figueroa

eezbank
04-21-2011, 06:08 PM
Wouldn't hurt if that happened to you ;-)

Lou Figueroa

Plonk Plonk Plonk!

lfigueroa
04-21-2011, 07:15 PM
Plonk Plonk Plonk!


Perfect. Thanks. One less mindless drone I have to deal with in the future.

Lou Figueroa

JoeyA
04-21-2011, 08:39 PM
Plonk Plonk Plonk!

Don't bother with LouAnn, she ain't herself these days. :D

Patrick Johnson
04-22-2011, 06:41 AM
Lou quotes Joey:
I guess Patrick has been run out of this thread on a rail...
This thread is so far down the aiming system rabbithole that everybody but the posters has been "run out" by the same thing - boredom.
Lou:
Wouldn't hurt if that happened to you ;-)
I think the CTE wonks deserve their own permanent thread - where they can continue their monklike task of cataloging system head and bridge positions beneath the rotating edges of the endlessly shining Sun.

pj
chgo

lfigueroa
04-22-2011, 06:56 AM
Don't bother with LouAnn, she ain't herself these days. :D


lol. You really do like to do that feminizing thing, don't you ;-)

Lou Figueroa
sorry, JoesephinA
I dan't swing thataway

lfigueroa
04-22-2011, 06:58 AM
This thread is so far down the aiming system rabbithole that everybody but the posters has been "run out" by the same thing - boredom.

I think the CTE wonks deserve their own permanent thread - where they can continue their monklike task of cataloging system head and bridge positions beneath the rotating edges of the endlessly shining Sun.

pj
chgo


I think calling them wonks would be an insult to wonks.

Lou Figueroa

JoeyA
04-22-2011, 08:36 AM
lol. You really do like to do that feminizing thing, don't you ;-)

Lou Figueroa
sorry, JoesephinA
I dan't swing thataway

Well, you sure aren't showing that on this forum, STALKER. :D

mantis99
04-22-2011, 01:59 PM
Wow! They couldn't help but ruin another CTE thread. Read the title. Tips for CTE students. If you are not one, then you don't belong here. If you don't use CTE then you don't have any good tips and don't belong here. Stick to the threads that are set up to debate the topic instead please!

peteypooldude
04-22-2011, 02:16 PM
I think calling them wonks would be an insult to wonks.

Lou Figueroa

Good one Lou :D

peteypooldude
04-22-2011, 02:17 PM
Well, you sure aren't showing that on this forum, STALKER. :D

Better one Joey lol :thumbup::rotflmao1:

dr_dave
04-22-2011, 02:57 PM
The last time I saw interactions at this maturity level, I was about 7 years old, and recess was about to end on the schoolyard!!!

Why is it that CTE always seems to bring out the "inner child" in people?

Dismayed by the lack of maturity on AZB,
Dave

brad21156
04-22-2011, 03:19 PM
The last time I saw interactions at this maturity level, I was about 7 years old, and recess was about to end on the schoolyard!!!

Why is it that CTE always seems to bring out the "inner child" in people?

Dismayed by the lack of maturity on AZB,
Dave

Great! Like we need advice in maturity or morals from a guy that steals other peoples material and posts it on his website and claims to be helping.

I think we're alright here Dr. Dave. :thumbup:

JoeyA
04-22-2011, 05:27 PM
Great! Like we need advice in maturity or morals from a guy that steals other peoples material and posts it on his website and claims to be helping.

I think we're alright here Dr. Dave. :thumbup:

That's a hundred and three mile an hour fast ball, right down the middle. Ouch. :D
JoeyA

lfigueroa
04-22-2011, 05:49 PM
Well, you sure aren't showing that on this forum, STALKER. :D


That dog won't hunt (another Hal saying :-)

You need some fresh material, JosephinA.

Lou Figueroa

lfigueroa
04-22-2011, 05:51 PM
The last time I saw interactions at this maturity level, I was about 7 years old, and recess was about to end on the schoolyard!!!

Why is it that CTE always seems to bring out the "inner child" in people?

Dismayed by the lack of maturity on AZB,
Dave


I don't know about any one's inner child, but it does seem to bring out the homophob in Joey.

Lou Figueroa

lfigueroa
04-22-2011, 05:52 PM
The last time I saw interactions at this maturity level, I was about 7 years old, and recess was about to end on the schoolyard!!!

Why is it that CTE always seems to bring out the "inner child" in people?

Dismayed by the lack of maturity on AZB,
Dave


You really need to get off your high horse.

Lou Figueroa

justadub
04-22-2011, 06:13 PM
I didn't bother to read his particular thread when it started, and now that I've checked in to see the last 2 pages, my initial instinct has been proven correct.

The same 6-8 people calling each other names.

Disappointing, given how much each of those 6-8 people have to offer in threads that don't contain the subject of CTE.

gordml
04-22-2011, 06:24 PM
I didn't bother to read his particular thread when it started, and now that I've checked in to see the last 2 pages, my initial instinct has been proven correct.

The same 6-8 people calling each other names.

Disappointing, given how much each of those 6-8 people have to offer in threads that don't contain the subject of CTE.

yeah disappointing - especially since there really are people who wanted to actually discuss and learn CTE.
Get a life people.

mantis99
04-22-2011, 07:36 PM
yeah disappointing - especially since there really are people who wanted to actually discuss and learn CTE.
Get a life people.

Agreed. As I said before. GO somewhere else if you don't have any CTE tips. There are other threads with CTE that you can ruin.

daphish1
04-25-2011, 06:28 AM
Ok, back to the original purpose of the thread.

Is there any general rule of thumb you (CTE/PRO1 users) use for which direction to pivot on banks?

dr_dave
04-25-2011, 07:33 AM
Ok, back to the original purpose of the thread.

Is there any general rule of thumb you (CTE/PRO1 users) use for which direction to pivot on banks?Determine the required line of aim either by "feel" or using a bank shot aiming system (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html), and then use the CTE alignment and pivot (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#ProOne) appropriate for the amount of cut needed.

Oh, and then practice a bunch. :grin:

Regards,
Dave

SpiderWebComm
04-25-2011, 07:39 AM
Use CTE/Pro1 or 90/90 and use L/R english to offset the CIT.

Or, over-compensate the english and offset with a high bank speed.

scottjen26
04-25-2011, 08:51 PM
Regarding banking:

I don't know if I'm doing it right, but it's working well for me. When I'm shooting a typical cross side bank, I quickly look at the line the OB would take if I hit it straight in the face. If I'm pretty close to that line or would only have to cut the OB a little to get it to bank, I use what I call the "thick" pivot, same as if shooting an almost straight in shot to the pocket. So if cutting the ball to the right, I would use a left pivot. If I have to cut the ball more than a slight amount, then I use the "normal" pivot which would be in the same direction as the cut.

I find that for a lot of typical cross side banks, I can use the thick pivot and make the ball easily. For me and my stroke, I can make it with a nice medium speed stroke with center ball or a touch of outside or I can hit it pretty firm with more outside. I worked this out so I had a few simple speeds and spins I could rely on based on positional needs etc. For anything else - extremely soft or firm speeds or odd english - I resort to feel based adjustments as normal.

If I need to shorten the bank (the straight on line would go above the pocket), I just line up on the outer edge and pivot accordingly, usually I need to hit the ball a bit harder or use inside english depending on how large the angle is. I can also cross over the ball very easily using the same judgement of cut angle, and since the cutting across puts the right english on the OB no english is usually needed.

My banking wasn't bad before by any means, but all by feel. I'm now very accurate with normal cross side banks or cross corner banks within normal parameters using the CTE/Pro1 or 90/90 sightings, and I'm really not analyzing the bank like I used to, just imagine the proper cut angle within a range and line up pivot and shoot. Easily 9 out of 10 cross side and 7 out of 10 cross corner from varying positions within those normal parameters, proabably 1 - 2 shots better on both. I find that if I have to cut the ball a lot (say using the B aim point) or I'm at a very off angle it doesn't work as well, not because of the system but because of having to compensate more for friction induced throw off the rail. Still working on that to see if I can still use the system effectively on those. Also personally am having more of an issue with long banks, they are more sensitive to english and I have to force myself not to try and twist the ball and just hit it cleanly.

Scott

cookie man
04-26-2011, 03:09 AM
Regarding banking:

I don't know if I'm doing it right, but it's working well for me. When I'm shooting a typical cross side bank, I quickly look at the line the OB would take if I hit it straight in the face. If I'm pretty close to that line or would only have to cut the OB a little to get it to bank, I use what I call the "thick" pivot, same as if shooting an almost straight in shot to the pocket. So if cutting the ball to the right, I would use a left pivot. If I have to cut the ball more than a slight amount, then I use the "normal" pivot which would be in the same direction as the cut.

I find that for a lot of typical cross side banks, I can use the thick pivot and make the ball easily. For me and my stroke, I can make it with a nice medium speed stroke with center ball or a touch of outside or I can hit it pretty firm with more outside. I worked this out so I had a few simple speeds and spins I could rely on based on positional needs etc. For anything else - extremely soft or firm speeds or odd english - I resort to feel based adjustments as normal.

If I need to shorten the bank (the straight on line would go above the pocket), I just line up on the outer edge and pivot accordingly, usually I need to hit the ball a bit harder or use inside english depending on how large the angle is. I can also cross over the ball very easily using the same judgement of cut angle, and since the cutting across puts the right english on the OB no english is usually needed.

My banking wasn't bad before by any means, but all by feel. I'm now very accurate with normal cross side banks or cross corner banks within normal parameters using the CTE/Pro1 or 90/90 sightings, and I'm really not analyzing the bank like I used to, just imagine the proper cut angle within a range and line up pivot and shoot. Easily 9 out of 10 cross side and 7 out of 10 cross corner from varying positions within those normal parameters, proabably 1 - 2 shots better on both. I find that if I have to cut the ball a lot (say using the B aim point) or I'm at a very off angle it doesn't work as well, not because of the system but because of having to compensate more for friction induced throw off the rail. Still working on that to see if I can still use the system effectively on those. Also personally am having more of an issue with long banks, they are more sensitive to english and I have to force myself not to try and twist the ball and just hit it cleanly.

Scott
Your coming along very well with CTE, thanks for your reports.

dr_dave
04-26-2011, 07:38 AM
Determine the required line of aim either by "feel" or using a bank shot aiming system (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html), and then use the CTE alignment and pivot (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#ProOne) appropriate for the amount of cut needed.

Oh, and then practice a bunch. :grin:Also, if you are not familiar with and know how to adjust for all of the important bank effects (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html#effects), your success with bank shot "aiming systems" (even CTE) will be limited.

Regards,
Dave

cookie man
04-26-2011, 08:49 AM
Also, if you are not familiar with and know how to adjust for all of the important bank effects (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html#effects), your success with bank shot "aiming systems" (even CTE) will be limited.

Regards,
Dave

This opinion is posted with how much experience with banking using CTE?

dr_dave
04-26-2011, 09:00 AM
Also, if you are not familiar with and know how to adjust for all of the important bank effects (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html#effects), your success with bank shot "aiming systems" (even CTE) will be limited.

This opinion is posted with how much experience with banking using CTE?... very little, but that doesn't change the fact that bank and kick effects (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html#effects) and conditions are important regardless of what bank or kick aiming system (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html) you use.

Regards,
Dave

cookie man
04-26-2011, 10:15 AM
... very little, but that doesn't change the fact that bank and kick effects (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html#effects) and conditions are important regardless of what bank or kick aiming system (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html) you use.

Regards,
Dave

Then why post in a thread on tips for cte. I know, you want to post links to your website but its getting a little boring don't you think?

dr_dave
04-26-2011, 10:29 AM
Then why post in a thread on tips for cte. I know, you want to post links to your website but its getting a little boring don't you think?I think a useful tip for kicking and banking, even with CTE, is:
Make sure you understand all bank and kick effects, so you know when and how to make adjustments.
People who want to learn more can click on the links, and people who don't can ignore this message and the links.

Regards,
Dave

Patrick Johnson
04-26-2011, 10:44 AM
Dave:
Also, if you are not familiar with and know how to adjust for all of the important bank effects, your success with bank shot "aiming systems" (even CTE) will be limited.
Dave quotes cookie man:
This opinion is posted with how much experience with banking using CTE?
This question shows very little understanding of what's involved in banking.

Dave:
... very little, but that doesn't change the fact that bank and kick effects and conditions are important regardless of what bank or kick aiming system you use.
Dave quotes cookie man:
Then why post in a thread on tips for cte.
Because it's useful advice that clearly won't come from CTE users with chips on their shoulders.

pj
chgo

Roger Long
04-26-2011, 11:22 AM
Your summary is neither concise nor complete!! In fact you have so much misleading information
that it would be hard for someone to even fathom of learning CTE/Pro-One from this website!!

Pablo:

For the benefit of those who are sincerely trying to learn CTE, would you please be kind enough to give them your own concise and complete summary. Also, please be sure to point out all the parts in Dr. Dave's summary that are misleading. Thank you.

Roger

Roger Long
04-26-2011, 11:35 AM
Great! Like we need advice in maturity or morals from a guy that steals other peoples material and posts it on his website and claims to be helping.

I think we're alright here Dr. Dave. :thumbup:

I get a charge out of people who claim their Internet material has been "stolen" and re-posted, when all they did was take it from someone else who took it from someone else, and on, and on, and on. Let's face it, no one on these forums has ever had an original idea. No one. EVER.

Roger

Roger Long
04-26-2011, 11:53 AM
Then why post in a thread on tips for cte. I know, you want to post links to your website but its getting a little boring don't you think?

When guys like Dr. Dave and Patrick stop posting in the CTE threads, that's when things get truly boring and the threads start dropping down the list. You might disagree with me, but it's a fact that can be proven. If all the so-called "naysayers" should leave this thread alone, just watch what would happen to it. There would be only three or four people left contributing anything, and maybe even less left reading it. Very few actual pool players want to spend their entire day analyzing angles and pivots.

Oh, and if you want to know why I'm now defending Patrick's right to be in this thread when I earlier asked him to stay out of it, just look at JoeyA's post #155 and that should explain it.

Roger

SpiderWebComm
04-26-2011, 12:52 PM
You should contribute something instead of playing forum cop.

You're wrong ... there HAVE been original thoughts and concepts on this forum. One of which was Dr. Dave's "V" technique for figuring 30deg angles. Nobody ever thought of that before b/c it's ridiculous.

Secondly, Dr. Dave posted info from Stan's DvD - not from another site with copied info. That info was STAN'S - not Dr. Dave's.

If some else is thinking about putting out an instructional DVD.....DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!!! Dr. Dave will post your info on his site, without permission, and make it harder to sell DVDs.



Sent from my SPH-M910 using Tapatalk

JoeyA
04-26-2011, 12:52 PM
When guys like Dr. Dave and Patrick stop posting in the CTE threads, that's when things get truly boring and the threads start dropping down the list. You might disagree with me, but it's a fact that can be proven. If all the so-called "naysayers" should leave this thread alone, just watch what would happen to it. There would be only three or four people left contributing anything, and maybe even less left reading it. Very few actual pool players want to spend their entire day analyzing angles and pivots.

Oh, and if you want to know why I'm now defending Patrick's right to be in this thread when I earlier asked him to stay out of it, just look at JoeyA's post #155 and that should explain it.

Roger

Roger,
Please refrain from pointing out JoeyA's secrets of rejuvenating a thread.

cookie man
04-26-2011, 02:32 PM
This question shows very little understanding of what's involved in banking.


Because it's useful advice that clearly won't come from CTE users with chips on their shoulders.

pj
chgo

Really Patrick, Please start a thread on banking and explain it all to me.
Thanks in advance.
P.S. the more chips I have the more free beer I get.

cookie man
04-26-2011, 02:34 PM
When guys like Dr. Dave and Patrick stop posting in the CTE threads, that's when things get truly boring and the threads start dropping down the list. You might disagree with me, but it's a fact that can be proven. If all the so-called "naysayers" should leave this thread alone, just watch what would happen to it. There would be only three or four people left contributing anything, and maybe even less left reading it. Very few actual pool players want to spend their entire day analyzing angles and pivots.

Oh, and if you want to know why I'm now defending Patrick's right to be in this thread when I earlier asked him to stay out of it, just look at JoeyA's post #155 and that should explain it.

Roger
The problem is they say the same things over and over for 10 plus years, and they are wrong about most of it. They post in CTE threads because threads they start last 2 maybe 3 days tops, and they just can't handle that.

cookie man
04-26-2011, 02:35 PM
Pablo:

For the benefit of those who are sincerely trying to learn CTE, would you please be kind enough to give them your own concise and complete summary. Also, please be sure to point out all the parts in Dr. Dave's summary that are misleading. Thank you.

Roger

Get the video.

Slide Rule
04-26-2011, 02:59 PM
Pablo:

For the benefit of those who are sincerely trying to learn CTE, would you please be kind enough to give them your own concise and complete summary. Also, please be sure to point out all the parts in Dr. Dave's summary that are misleading. Thank you.

Roger

It seems as if there is a second Professor on the CTE thread. Professor PJ and now Professor Long.
Making homework assignments, indicates a lack of interest and of sending someone productive on a useless errand.
One Professor on the CTE threads is sufficient. Otherwise contribute.

brad21156
04-26-2011, 04:47 PM
Secondly, Dr. Dave posted info from Stan's DvD - not from another site with copied info. That info was STAN'S - not Dr. Dave's.

If some else is thinking about putting out an instructional DVD.....DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!!! Dr. Dave will post your info on his site, without permission, and make it harder to sell DVDs.



Sent from my SPH-M910 using Tapatalk

This is probably the best tip in this thread. Dr. Dave is a thief. There is no way to justify posting a how to description of Stans original information not even a month after the video came out. Does this man have a total lack of professional etiquette?

After seeing this I don't know why anyone with an original idea would ever put it on DVD. I'm disgusted by Dr. Daves actions.

Rep to you spiderweb. This has needed to be said for a few months. Finally someone stood up and said it.

Murdoch7627
04-26-2011, 05:41 PM
This is probably the best tip in this thread. Dr. Dave is a thief. There is no way to justify posting a how to description of Stans original information not even a month after the video came out. Does this man have a total lack of professional etiquette?

After seeing this I don't know why anyone with an original idea would ever put it on DVD. I'm disgusted by Dr. Daves actions.

Rep to you spiderweb. This has needed to be said for a few months. Finally someone stood up and said it.

Tap, Tap, Tap.

He is indeed a thief. I hope anyone considering buying any of his DVDs will consider his "total lack of professional etiquette" and decide not to purchase anything from such a low life person. He knew damn well that he was hurting Stan's sales. If not, then he must be the biggest moron on the planet.

Patrick Johnson
04-26-2011, 08:12 PM
Tap, Tap, Tap.

He is indeed a thief. I hope anyone considering buying any of his DVDs will consider his "total lack of professional etiquette" and decide not to purchase anything from such a low life person. He knew damn well that he was hurting Stan's sales. If not, then he must be the biggest moron on the planet.
Complete bullshit. You're just piling on because Dr. Dave speaks reason to your CTE cult and you're all allergic to that. What you're trying to do is more shameful than what you accuse him of.

You show typical CTE wonk intelligence by following Dave Segal's low-class lead. He's always had a hardon where he needed brains, and it didn't get any better since he bragged himself into a corner with promises of a mathematical "proof" (LOL) when all he's really capable of producing is vanity videos.

If Stan's system doesn't do well it won't be because of anything Dr. Dave or anybody else with an actual head on his shoulders said or did - it'll be because CTE is associated with losers like you guys.

Or is it loosers?

pj
chgo

AtLarge
04-26-2011, 08:53 PM
Dr. Dave was criticized, unjustly to my mind, more than two months ago for posting his brief summary of Stan's CTE method.

I would ask anyone who wasn't following the CTE threads at that time, and anyone who may have forgotten that discussion, to read the following two posts:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=2869303&postcount=268

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=2869828&postcount=275

eezbank
04-26-2011, 09:02 PM
Dr. Dave was criticized, unjustly to my mind, more than two months ago for posting his brief summary of Stan's CTE method.

I would ask anyone who wasn't following the CTE threads at that time, and anyone who may have forgotten that discussion, to read the following two posts:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=2869303&postcount=268

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=2869828&postcount=275

What did you expect dr_dave would say? Yes I'm a thief...sorry about that. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence would see through the bullshit here. Why don't you ask Stan what he thinks? It's his material after all.

I think you're way off on this one Atlarge. dr_dave should've at least asked before posting even what you would call a partial description in my opinion.

The guy is a theif plain and simple.

eezbank
04-26-2011, 09:05 PM
Tap, Tap, Tap.

He is indeed a thief. I hope anyone considering buying any of his DVDs will consider his "total lack of professional etiquette" and decide not to purchase anything from such a low life person. He knew damn well that he was hurting Stan's sales. If not, then he must be the biggest moron on the planet.

If you do a search the "partners in crime" did the same thing to geno and perfect aim. It wasn't the first time and I'm sure it won't be the last.

JoeyA
04-26-2011, 09:05 PM
Complete bullshit. You're just piling on because Dr. Dave speaks reason to your CTE cult and you're all allergic to that. What you're trying to do is more shameful than what you accuse him of.

You show typical CTE wonk intelligence by following Dave Segal's low-class lead. He's always had a hardon where he needed brains, and it didn't get any better since he bragged himself into a corner with promises of a mathematical "proof" (LOL) when all he's really capable of producing is vanity videos.

If Stan's system doesn't do well it won't be because of anything Dr. Dave or anybody else with an actual head on his shoulders said or did - it'll be because CTE is associated with losers like you guys.

Or is it loosers?

pj
chgo

You're the one who is wrong Patrick. Murdoch is RIGHT! Dr. Dave did post Stan's material on his website WITHOUT PERMISSION.

Only a moron would think otherwise or is that a maroon?

This thread is supposed to be about Tips for Students of CTE, go find another ship to float your arrogance.

JoeyA

Roger Long
04-26-2011, 09:15 PM
It seems as if there is a second Professor on the CTE thread. Professor PJ and now Professor Long.
Making homework assignments, indicates a lack of interest and of sending someone productive on a useless errand.
One Professor on the CTE threads is sufficient. Otherwise contribute.



And just what have you contributed? If you really knew so much about CTE you would have explained it all to everyone's satisfaction by now.

Roger

Roger Long
04-26-2011, 09:44 PM
You should contribute something instead of playing forum cop.

You're wrong ... there HAVE been original thoughts and concepts on this forum. One of which was Dr. Dave's "V" technique for figuring 30deg angles. Nobody ever thought of that before b/c it's ridiculous.

Secondly, Dr. Dave posted info from Stan's DvD - not from another site with copied info. That info was STAN'S - not Dr. Dave's.

If some else is thinking about putting out an instructional DVD.....DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!!! Dr. Dave will post your info on his site, without permission, and make it harder to sell DVDs.



Sent from my SPH-M910 using Tapatalk

This right here is some very hard evidence that what I earlier said about CTE's controversial side being all about marketing, is true: Who's going to get credit for its invention? Who's going to be approved to teach it for money? Who's going to have the right to market its information in DVD's?

And I think new readers to these CTE threads have a right to be made aware of this truth. If you call that playing "forum cop," then so be it. I'll just call it my free contribution.

Sell on, marketeers.

Roger

LAMas
04-26-2011, 09:55 PM
It might be nice to have one thread where we could exchange tips about aiming with CTE -- things we have learned that might help someone else learn more easily or quickly.

I ask that this thread be limited to talking about Stan Shuffett's version of CTE -- not earlier versions or someone's hybridization.

I also plea that everyone leave all contentious debate out of this thread. Let's just accept that "it works" in some fashion, whether that is with mechanical precision or through conscious or unconscious user adjustments. Some people are over-the-top advocates, some think it's an absurd way to try to hit a pool shot, and others are somewhere in between -- let's just accept all that. I'll also be disappointed if anyone tries to use this thread as a platform for ill-mannered attempts at humor, such as "Tip: use ghost-ball aiming instead."

I hope that we all have reached a stage now where a thread like this is possible. I'll start it out.

Tip -- Buy Stan's DVD.
I have been amazed at how many people seem to be sincerely interested in CTE, and in aiming methods more generally, but have not spent a measly $45 (and that is pretty measly in this day and age) to hear and see what Stan presents first hand. The on-line outlines, summaries, and discussion can be useful, but they don't adequately substitute for the DVD.

I was a student of CTE long before the DVD came out, and what was available was pretty poor. A lot of people who tried to learn it from Hal Houle were left mystified or deemed it geometrically flawed and unworkable. Hal's instructions, at least to many people, were simply: sight center to edge, offset the stick inside or outside depending on thickness of cut needed, and pivot to center. That simple prescription is full of holes, and many of us were unable to add enough meat to the bones to make it into a usable method.

Stan was one of those students who went to see Hal. But Stan was intrigued enough to stick with it until he was able to give it some structure and make it a much more usable method. Stan's specification of secondary sighting lines and specific pivot lengths (for manual CTE) elevates the method to something that is now useful to many more people.

The DVD has high production qualities (for a pool DVD). Some viewers wish he had explained some things more fully or differently, but, overall, it is reasonably well done. I urge those interested in CTE, or aiming methods more generally, to buy it.

Tip -- Use Streamlined Shot "Call-Outs"
Stan's method essentially presents the player with a menu of ways to align oneself -- or determine the final cue-stick alignment -- for a shot. Some students have expressed confusion, difficulty, or dismay in trying to keep the options straight as the shots present themselves during a game or match. When I use the method, I find it helpful to streamline that menu in my mind, in the following ways.

The center-to-edge line always goes to the outside (side farther from the pocket) of the object ball, and I doubt that anyone has any difficulty in immediately seeing that. Stan then uses A, B, and C for the secondary alignment lines, and left and right for the pivots. My mental way of implementing this makes two changes in terminology:

Instead of thinking of A, B, or C, I find it easier in actual play to just think "1" or "2," where this means 1 or 2 quarters of the OB. So "A" and "C" are both "1" (one quarter) and "B" is "2" (two quarters). Since the side for the CTEL is instantly obvious on a shot, I just think whether to align for 1 vs. 2 quarters for the secondary alignment (forget the very thin cuts for now).

Instead of thinking "left" or "right" for the 1/2-tip offset for the pivot, which have different effects depending on the direction of the cut, I just think "out" or "in," where "out" means outside and "in" means inside.

So as I approach a shot, I call out (to myself) either "1-out," or "1-in," or "2-out," or "2-in" depending on the shot.

This can be done very quickly. In fact, I find that I can make an alignment-menu selection and align myself for the shot, including pivot, almost as quickly as I can go around the table one-stroking using only "feel." And the process can certainly be done at least as quickly as ghost-ball or contact-point-to-contact-point aiming. For precision, it is probably good to not do it that quickly, but I just mention this because of objections sometimes made about CTE possibly disrupting one's "flow" or pace of play.

So ............ as I move to each shot, I just call out to myself one of:
1-out
1-in
2-out
2-in

and then go into aligning my body for CTEL plus the call-out. I hope someone finds this tip useful. If you need any further clarification, please just ask.

Now -- how about some tips from other users.

"...Thanks for starting this thread. I appreciate very much what you had to say in your initial post. "

Stan
------------------------------------------------------------------------

How soon we forget or never read?:confused:

SpiderWebComm
04-27-2011, 05:58 AM
Patrick must've went to Pismo Beach.

Back to "tips for students"...

dr_dave
04-27-2011, 07:12 AM
Dr. Dave was criticized, unjustly to my mind, more than two months ago for posting his brief summary of Stan's CTE method.

I would ask anyone who wasn't following the CTE threads at that time, and anyone who may have forgotten that discussion, to read the following two posts:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=2869303&postcount=268

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=2869828&postcount=275Some people don't like links, so I've quoted all of the posts below. I think they put things in perspective fairly well.

Thanks,
Dave

from AlLarge from here (http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=2869303#post2869303):
Dr. Dave posted about 8 sentences plus a small table. Do you really think this is the "complete content" of the DVD? If it were, then the DVD would be a total rip-off, because Stan could have given all of us his complete lesson in an equivalently brief written post on AzB.

But I don't believe that Stan's DVD is a rip-off. Nor do I believe that Dr. Dave's write-up now makes the DVD superfluous. The DVD is an hour and a half of verbal and visual material, not just 8 written sentences plus a table.

In the time since Stan's DVD was released, far more has been written about it than Dr. Dave wrote. You, Spidey, have personally written a lot more than Dr. Dave. Here's just one of your posts that gives a good amount of detail about the method: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=2833281&postcount=200. And you have answered many questions with specifics on how to apply the method. Many other people also have contributed to the effort to try to unravel some of the mysteries of the method.

So I think nasty name-calling on this isn't really appropriate.


From SpiderWebComm from here (http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=2833281#post2833281):
LEFT CUTS:

Aim point A: Thick cut angles
Aim point B: Thin cut angles
Aim point 1/8: VERY thin cut angles

RIGHT CUTS:

Aim point C: Thick cut angles
Aim point B: Thin cut angles
Aim point 1/8: VERY thin cut angles

So, in a GENERAL rule of thumb (this is a variable that is affected by playing conditions, speed, etc), if it's less than a 1/2 ball cut -- it's thick. If it's more than a 1/2 ball cut, it's thin. The direction of the pivot also can affect this based on the playing conditions. Meaning, for a thick left cut that's near borderline... it might be edge to A (left pivot) or edge to B (right pivot). There were some shots that were listed as (not obvious pivots). MOST shots are totally obvious. Some borderline shots are not. One direction will look perfect -- the other not close.

People always ask "Well, how do you KNOW?" Easy--- setup and pivot in one direction. If it's not right, the other way will work. Just reset. It will not take a LONG time to just KNOW. FAR less time than hitting a million balls. I'd guess less than 1000 and you'll be tuned in. So, when someone says, "Well gee whiz--- this take PRACTICE and if you're gonna PRACTICE why not just use ghost ball?" Well... because it doesn't take 20 years of practice - maybe just a few months to perfect--- that's why.

Dave

p.s. Order from thickest to thinnest:

LEFT:

A: right pivot
A: left pivot
B: right pivot
B: left pivot
1/8: right pivot
1/8: left pivot

RIGHT:

C: left pivot
C: right pivot
B: left pivot
B: right pivot
1/8: left pivot
1/8: right pivot

Right off the bat you should be able to eliminate 1/2 of these for 90% of all shots just based on looking at the shot. An experienced pool player should be able to see if it's an A, B or C alignment and just think is this a L/R pivot? As you progress, you'll always pivot from the same side and just make an alignment adjustment (or cue angle adjustment) to compensate. Cue angle adjustment meaning, if it's a right pivot...pivot beyond center to the left pivot starting position. Notice the angle of attack for your cue. Whenever you need a right pivot, start from this cue angle and back-pivot to center :) Left handers, do the opposite.

Pros who pivot-- never pivot from the unnatural side. That's why Bustamante is always starts at the left CB edge for each shot. You'll never see him on the right edge of the CB as a starting point.


from dr_dave from here (http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=2869828#post2869828):
Atlarge,

Thank you for your post. I also want to thank others for their supportive posts, PMS, and e-mails.

I agree with Atlarge's appraisal. The brief description on my website summarizing Stan's version of CTE (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#ProOne) (which is the basis for Pro One (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#pro-one)), does not diminish the value of Stan's DVD. If anything, as I've pointed out before, I think it adds value. It provides a concise summary for people to use as a reference after they view the DVD. IMO, the DVD is not very "informational" ... it is more "demonstrational." In fact, it was very difficult for me to figure out the "information" from the DVD. I had to view it several times, taking notes and making drawings for all of the examples to figure out the pattern. That's why I think I have "added value" to the DVD.

IMO, the real value of the DVD is in the audio/visual explanations, illustrations, demonstrations, and examples.

I thought the purpose for this thread was to discuss and ask questions about CTE/Pro-One to develop a better understanding of the approach and how it is applied. How can this be done if people don't have a basic definition of the method? I think the brief summary on my website (and in this thread) does a reasonable job of explaining Stan's version of CTE, along with several other versions that have been proposed in the past. If somebody wants to learn more about Stan's version, see demonstrations by good shooters, see lots of examples, and learn how to set up these examples on their own table, they will want to purchase Stan's DVD (http://www.justcueit.com/).

I'm sorry Spidey and Joey think I have somehow been professionally irresponsible. Obviously, I strongly disagree.

Regards,
Dave

SpiderWebComm
04-27-2011, 07:19 AM
That post was made long after you had already ripped that information from Stan's DVD and posted to your site. My post was in response to someone asking the progression of cut angles.

So, that's like you saying, "SEE?!? Spidey posted the information!!! SEE!!"

When, in fact, you had posted that information LONG before I made that post.

You can strongly disagree all you'd like---- it is what it is. You extrapolated Stan's content and posted everything to your site less than a month after he released his DVD.

You might call it "research"--- but everyone else calls it thievery.

Genie was already out of the bottle for a while. Sorry, Doc.

dr_dave
04-27-2011, 07:39 AM
That post was made long after you had already ripped that information from Stan's DVD and posted to your site. My post was in response to someone asking the progression of cut angles.

So, that's like you saying, "SEE?!? Spidey posted the information!!! SEE!!"

When, in fact, you had posted that information LONG before I made that post.

You can strongly disagree all you'd like---- it is what it is. You extrapolated Stan's content and posted everything to your site less than a month after he released his DVD.

You might call it "research"--- but everyone else calls it thievery.

Genie was already out of the bottle for a while. Sorry, Doc.Spidey,

This is untrue. You are mistaken.

You posted your interpretation of Stan's information on 1/27/2011 here (http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=2833281#post2833281).

I didn't publish my interpretation of Stan's approach (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#ProOne) on my website or on AZB until 2/17/2001, per the message here (http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=2867113#post2867113).

Regards,
Dave

SpiderWebComm
04-27-2011, 07:51 AM
Spidey,

This is untrue. You are mistaken.

You posted your interpretation of Stan's information on 1/27/2011 here (http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=2833281#post2833281).

I didn't publish my interpretation of Stan's approach (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#ProOne) on my website or on AZB until 2/17/2001, per the message here (http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=2867113#post2867113).

Regards,
Dave

Um, not quite. Nice try. Maybe Stan should chime in and clear things up. Stan and I collaborated on the post you quoted above. That was made AFTER you posted his content to your personal site.

Maybe you should call Stan on the phone and see what he has to say about it.... especially about who posted info to the internet (not AZ) FIRST.

Dave

mohrt
04-27-2011, 07:52 AM
Questions about when to switch between A/B/C or when to use L/R pivot are frequently asked. That is because they are not completely spelled out on the DVD. I had these questions myself after watching it. You gain this knowledge by practicing the shots. Spidey's info was very helpful to explain it further. The information given is purely additive to what is on the DVD. I also made practice charts for many of the shots on the DVD with Stan's approval.

I don't think it's a problem to summarize someone's system if you get permission from them first. I'm sure Stan put a lot of hard work into the system he teaches, and people should be respectful of that. It's like me making a DVD how to make thanksgiving dinner my way, and a "helpful" person summarizes the recipes on the internet.

SpiderWebComm
04-27-2011, 07:58 AM
Questions about when to switch between A/B/C or when to use L/R pivot are frequently asked. That is because they are not completely spelled out on the DVD. I had these questions myself after watching it. You gain this knowledge by practicing the shots. Spidey's info was very helpful to explain it further. The information given is purely additive to what is on the DVD. I also made practice charts for many of the shots on the DVD with Stan's approval.

I don't think it's a problem to summarize someone's system if you get permission from them first. I'm sure Stan put a lot of hard work into the system he teaches, and people should be respectful of that. It's like me making a DVD how to make thanksgiving dinner my way, and a "helpful" person summarizes the recipes on the internet.

Well said. Exactly my point. Dr. Dave never asked nor received permission to post the info to his site. Once he posted all of the details to his personal site (WHICH WAS NOT AFTER I MADE THAT POST), then the genie was out and about.

Don't take my word for it. Anyone having any doubts on the real timeline can simply call Stan and ask who posted what and when.

eezbank
04-27-2011, 07:58 AM
Questions about when to switch between A/B/C or when to use L/R pivot are frequently asked. That is because they are not completely spelled out on the DVD. I had these questions myself after watching it. You gain this knowledge by practicing the shots. Spidey's info was very helpful to explain it further. The information given is purely additive to what is on the DVD. I also made practice charts for many of the shots on the DVD with Stan's approval.

I don't think it's a problem to summarize someone's system if you get permission from them first. I'm sure Stan put a lot of hard work into the system he teaches, and people should be respectful of that. It's like me making a DVD how to make thanksgiving dinner my way, and a "helpful" person summarizes the recipes on the internet.

Spot on post mohrt. +1

brophog
04-27-2011, 08:04 AM
You should contribute something instead of playing forum cop.

You're wrong ... there HAVE been original thoughts and concepts on this forum. One of which was Dr. Dave's "V" technique for figuring 30deg angles. Nobody ever thought of that before b/c it's ridiculous.

Secondly, Dr. Dave posted info from Stan's DvD - not from another site with copied info. That info was STAN'S - not Dr. Dave's.

If some else is thinking about putting out an instructional DVD.....DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!!! Dr. Dave will post your info on his site, without permission, and make it harder to sell DVDs.



You should be a judge, so then the highly complex field of copyrights and trademarks could finally be adequately solved into finite distinctions.

What is and what isn't 'original' tends to be based on just how far one goes back, and what one treats as the base assumptions. That's why that field of legal theory is so complicated.

If you want to have a legal discussion, then make a new thread. This thread is about CTE, and naturally, that's going to involve a considerable amount of information available in the DVD as part of the conversation. The second that DVD was created, that was going to be unavoidable.

I think the DVD was well done, and even people who decide against strict CTE would get benefit from it, due to the high presentation quality. However, I do call on some common sense and civility, once again, in the conversation of the topic.

Questions about when to switch between A/B/C or when to use L/R pivot are frequently asked. That is because they are not completely spelled out on the DVD. I had these questions myself after watching it. You gain this knowledge by practicing the shots.

That's the key point, and why the DVD has remarkable value: it's made to be used at the table. Considerable effort went into that aspect, and it shows. It is created from the ground up so that the user can easily and accurately replicate the sample shots on their table. That's the value it has over a simple text summary. Anyone that seriously thinks a text summary replaces that DVD is being disrespectful to the DVD and the effort that went into it.

JoeyA
04-27-2011, 08:11 AM
I'm sorry Spidey and Joey think I have somehow been professionally irresponsible. Obviously, I strongly disagree.

Regards,
Dave[/INDENT]

I'm sorry that you didn't ask Stan for permission to post ANY of his material concerning CTE/Pro One which in my opinion is the BENCHMARK for any center to edge discussion. While you may feel you have the right to copy his material and discuss it in any way that might be of benefit to you you, I still think you should have asked his permission. That's just what I would have done...... I guess I know how much work Stan put into developing the video CTE/Pro One and I wouldn't put anything on my website without his express permission. But that's just me.....

The truth is that all of the gobbly-gook about CTE that you have collected over the years makes your website look a bit silly, imo.

There is a dividing line now and it is B.P.O and A.P.O. The most ACCURATE AND CURRENT information about this METHOD OF AIMING is "AFTER PRO ONE". Everything "Before Pro One" seems convoluted and amibguous.

Anyway, all that being said, your website and your involvement on AZB Main forum is a valuable asset.

Anyone wanting to learn anything about CTE should simply forget about all of that other contradictory information and get the video by Stan Shuffett which can be accessed by clicking here. (www.justcueit.com)

I don't have the link right now but one of our posters compiled a DETAILED sheet which gave the aiming coordinates on many of the shots detailed in the video. This is a very nice tool and "tip" for CTE/Pro One Users to go along with the video. Maybe someone will give credit to the person who created the document and post it here as well.

JoeyA

pablocruz
04-27-2011, 08:14 AM
Spidey,

This is untrue. You are mistaken.

You posted your interpretation of Stan's information on 1/27/2011 here (http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=2833281#post2833281).

I didn't publish my interpretation of Stan's approach (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#ProOne) on my website or on AZB until 2/17/2001, per the message here (http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=2867113#post2867113).

Regards,
Dave


Your summary is neither concise nor complete!! In fact you have so much misleading information
that it would be hard for someone to even fathom of learning CTE/Pro-One from this website!!

pablocruz
04-27-2011, 08:16 AM
Patrick must've went to Pismo Beach.

Back to "tips for students"...

Dave...I was in Pismo this weekend!! Funny you should mention that!!

mohrt
04-27-2011, 08:19 AM
Back to CTE tips. Here are the practice worksheets that coincide with the Pro 1 DVD.

http://www.ohrt.com/billiards/ProOnePractice.pdf

Gazelli
04-27-2011, 08:19 AM
Seriously guys, take the name calling/finger pointing/"you did this, no I didn't", somewhere else. There are actually people who'd like to learn/improve their skills here. And this behavior is counter productive to learning.

pablocruz
04-27-2011, 08:25 AM
Back to CTE tips. Here are the practice worksheets that coincide with the Pro 1 DVD.

http://www.ohrt.com/billiards/ProOnePractice.pdf

Wow, your practice sheet made it to Dr. DoLittle's site as well!!
Coincidence? I think not!!

dr_dave
04-27-2011, 08:54 AM
Spidey,

This is untrue. You are mistaken.

You posted your interpretation of Stan's information on 1/27/2011 here (http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=2833281#post2833281).

I didn't publish my interpretation of Stan's approach (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#ProOne) on my website or on AZB until 2/17/2001, per the message here (http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=2867113#post2867113).

Regards,
DaveUm, not quite. Nice try. ... That was made AFTER you posted his content to your personal site.Spidey,

You and others can think whatever you want to think, but the facts remain as I have stated them. I promise that I did not post my original description until the day I announced it on AZB (http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=2867113#post2867113) (2/17/2011). Again, your description (http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=2833281#post2833281) was posted on 1/27/2011.

I have revised my interpretation of Stan's approach (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#ProOne) several times recently, based on new insight shared by Stan and others on AZB, but my original version definitely did not appear on my website until 2/17/2011. It is ridiculous to imply otherwise. But again, believe whatever you want to believe.

Regards,
Dave

brophog
04-27-2011, 08:59 AM
Anyone wanting to learn anything about CTE should simply forget about all of that other contradictory information and get the video by Stan Shuffett which can be accessed by clicking here.

Then come back and use the complementary resources, such as
http://www.ohrt.com/billiards/ProOnePractice.pdf to help further define what is perceived at the table.

mohrt
04-27-2011, 09:25 AM
After practicing with the manual CTE shots from the DVD for a couple of hours, I came to the conclusion that lining up the cue parallel to CTEL when moving into the shot helped (pre-pivot). Is this the right way to think of it, or am I going down the wrong path? I asked Stan and he simply stated "If you are making balls, then you are doing it right."

Others familiar with the system, are there any other tips to moving into the shot, besides having both visuals? Is parallel to CTEL a good approach?

SpiderWebComm
04-27-2011, 09:36 AM
Depends on the tip offset. Based on a certain ob/cb distance and pivot arc, there is one point between the edge of the cb and the center of the cb where the cue is parallel to the cte.

Sent from my SPH-M910 using Tapatalk

mohrt
04-27-2011, 11:24 AM
Depends on the tip offset. Based on a certain ob/cb distance and pivot arc, there is one point between the edge of the cb and the center of the cb where the cue is parallel to the cte.

Sent from my SPH-M910 using Tapatalk

You mean whether it's right or left pivot yes? I understand there is one place the cue is parallel. My question is, is that a good thing to do... try to come in parallel to that line, or just ignore that and "move in", on the visuals. My problems specifically were on thinner cuts. I could never move in and get enough pivot to make the cut. Then I concentrated on moving in parallel to CTEL and I started getting a bigger pivot.

scottjen26
04-27-2011, 11:36 AM
Personally I don't move into the shot along either the CTE or aim point lines, I just move in along the path of my visualization of the lines, When I see the lines I start moving into the shot, which might be parallel to one of the lines above but I don't worry about that.

I admit in the beginning I wanted a concrete place to aim, or some frame of reference, but after just a few sessions I was able to pick up the sight lines fairly easily and quickly and my body and alignment would just fall into place along the proper line of attack or "plane". Add to that the Pro1 style pivot and everything continues to become more and more seamless, now after 2 months on most shots I don't think anyone would even know what I was looking at or that I was pivoting at all.

Scott

Murdoch7627
04-27-2011, 12:49 PM
I moved to a new Thread at the request of AtLarge.

AtLarge
04-27-2011, 01:10 PM
... Don't take my word for it. Anyone having any doubts on the real timeline can simply call Stan and ask who posted what and when.

Spidey -- as you know, I have been following this saga pretty closely. Your claims about the time line for who posted what/when are incorrect, and Dr. Dave's are correct. You, and others, had been posting reviews, analysis, and comments about the DVD (including your long post that I cited) for several weeks before Dr. Dave posted his review on 2/17. Dr. Dave did post a few preliminary comments after viewing the DVD for the first time, but his more detailed post, the one that caused the furor, was on 2/17.

On 2/18, you said: "When I noticed Dr. Plagiarizer posted Stan's content today and plopped it on his website, I couldn't contain myself and had to call a spade a spade." On 2/18 you also began a rant against Dr. Dave for posting material about the DVD on his web site, then removing it, and lying about doing so. This went on for a few days -- including your offering to bet your life on the accuracy of your claims and offering $500 for Dr. Dave to take a lie detector test -- until Lou Figueroa figured out that you had simply been looking in a different section of the web site. I.e, your claims were wrong. I think the same thing is happening here regarding the time line.

So -- many people, most specifically including you, had been posting information about the DVD long before 2/17. Some of the information was understandable and accurate; some was inaccurate or poorly written. No one was criticized for posting that information. Then Dr. Dave wrote something that covered the same ground, but was actually well organized and understandable, and he got blasted.

I'd like to thank the posters (such as LAMas, gordml, daphish1, Grazelli, scottgen26, mohrt, brophog) who have tried to get this thread back on its original track after it was derailed a week ago. Contentious debate and personal insults -- and regurgitation thereof -- are not what this thread is about. I still believe the original purpose is valid and I'll ask again that we stick to that.

dgem
04-27-2011, 01:19 PM
After practicing with the manual CTE shots from the DVD for a couple of hours, I came to the conclusion that lining up the cue parallel to CTEL when moving into the shot helped (pre-pivot). Is this the right way to think of it, or am I going down the wrong path? I asked Stan and he simply stated "If you are making balls, then you are doing it right."

Others familiar with the system, are there any other tips to moving into the shot, besides having both visuals? Is parallel to CTEL a good approach?

When pivoting try moving your shoulder/ torso into the correct sight line. Try to learn other pivoting methods as well as they are quite similar with each other and you will be amazed how they coincide with each other. :)

brad21156
04-27-2011, 02:21 PM
FACT: Stan Shuffett put in many hundreds of hours developing a new aiming system called CTE/Pro One. The system is original material. That is, this aiming system as presented by Stan has never been presented by anyone anytime before Stan.

FACT: Stan spent money and time producing the CTE/Pro One DVD. As others who produce DVDs (Dr. Dave, for example) I believe Stan did this for the love of the game and to recover his costs and hopefully to make some money on the DVD. (Does anyone see a problem with this concept?)

FACT: Within a few weeks of the DVD coming out Dr. Dave put on his own web site as much information as he could understand and in as much detail as he could a large amount of Stan original information from the DVD.

FACT: Dr. Dave continues to update and add on his web site more of Stan's original information.

FACT: Dr. Dave publicly announced that he had put information concerning Stan's CTE/Pro One on his web site. This meant people could see essentially the basic concepts of Stan's CTE/Pro One DVD for free on Dr. Dave's web site.

FACT: Dr. Dave did not ONE TIME contact Stan to ask permission or to at least inform Stan of his plans to see if Stan had any objections.

Can anyone out there say they believe this was the honorable and right thing for Dr. Dave to do to Stan and to the original information on Stan's CTE/Pro One DVD?

I believe Dr. Dave's actions were not honorable nor right and hence, unscrupulous. (Oblivious to or contemptous of what is right and honorable)

Maybe Dr. Dave can tell us how his actions in dealing with Stan and the original information on Stan's CTE/Pro One DVD could be anything other than unscrupulous.

I believe you have your facts in order. I also think we should respect the OP and his thread and move this discussion to another thread. People are coming to this thread for tips on CTE and they have to sift through all the arguing to find the gems.

With that said, AtLarge has his facts wrong about dr_dave and we should continue that discussion in another thread.

pablocruz
04-27-2011, 02:28 PM
It might be nice to have one thread where we could exchange tips about aiming with CTE -- things we have learned that might help someone else learn more easily or quickly.

I ask that this thread be limited to talking about Stan Shuffett's version of CTE -- not earlier versions or someone's hybridization.

I also plea that everyone leave all contentious debate out of this thread. Let's just accept that "it works" in some fashion, whether that is with mechanical precision or through conscious or unconscious user adjustments. Some people are over-the-top advocates, some think it's an absurd way to try to hit a pool shot, and others are somewhere in between -- let's just accept all that. I'll also be disappointed if anyone tries to use this thread as a platform for ill-mannered attempts at humor, such as "Tip: use ghost-ball aiming instead."

I hope that we all have reached a stage now where a thread like this is possible. I'll start it out.

Tip -- Buy Stan's DVD.
I have been amazed at how many people seem to be sincerely interested in CTE, and in aiming methods more generally, but have not spent a measly $45 (and that is pretty measly in this day and age) to hear and see what Stan presents first hand. The on-line outlines, summaries, and discussion can be useful, but they don't adequately substitute for the DVD.

I was a student of CTE long before the DVD came out, and what was available was pretty poor. A lot of people who tried to learn it from Hal Houle were left mystified or deemed it geometrically flawed and unworkable. Hal's instructions, at least to many people, were simply: sight center to edge, offset the stick inside or outside depending on thickness of cut needed, and pivot to center. That simple prescription is full of holes, and many of us were unable to add enough meat to the bones to make it into a usable method.

Stan was one of those students who went to see Hal. But Stan was intrigued enough to stick with it until he was able to give it some structure and make it a much more usable method. Stan's specification of secondary sighting lines and specific pivot lengths (for manual CTE) elevates the method to something that is now useful to many more people.

The DVD has high production qualities (for a pool DVD). Some viewers wish he had explained some things more fully or differently, but, overall, it is reasonably well done. I urge those interested in CTE, or aiming methods more generally, to buy it.

Tip -- Use Streamlined Shot "Call-Outs"
Stan's method essentially presents the player with a menu of ways to align oneself -- or determine the final cue-stick alignment -- for a shot. Some students have expressed confusion, difficulty, or dismay in trying to keep the options straight as the shots present themselves during a game or match. When I use the method, I find it helpful to streamline that menu in my mind, in the following ways.

The center-to-edge line always goes to the outside (side farther from the pocket) of the object ball, and I doubt that anyone has any difficulty in immediately seeing that. Stan then uses A, B, and C for the secondary alignment lines, and left and right for the pivots. My mental way of implementing this makes two changes in terminology:

Instead of thinking of A, B, or C, I find it easier in actual play to just think "1" or "2," where this means 1 or 2 quarters of the OB. So "A" and "C" are both "1" (one quarter) and "B" is "2" (two quarters). Since the side for the CTEL is instantly obvious on a shot, I just think whether to align for 1 vs. 2 quarters for the secondary alignment (forget the very thin cuts for now).

Instead of thinking "left" or "right" for the 1/2-tip offset for the pivot, which have different effects depending on the direction of the cut, I just think "out" or "in," where "out" means outside and "in" means inside.

So as I approach a shot, I call out (to myself) either "1-out," or "1-in," or "2-out," or "2-in" depending on the shot.

This can be done very quickly. In fact, I find that I can make an alignment-menu selection and align myself for the shot, including pivot, almost as quickly as I can go around the table one-stroking using only "feel." And the process can certainly be done at least as quickly as ghost-ball or contact-point-to-contact-point aiming. For precision, it is probably good to not do it that quickly, but I just mention this because of objections sometimes made about CTE possibly disrupting one's "flow" or pace of play.

So ............ as I move to each shot, I just call out to myself one of:
1-out
1-in
2-out
2-in

and then go into aligning my body for CTEL plus the call-out. I hope someone finds this tip useful. If you need any further clarification, please just ask.

Now -- how about some tips from other users.

If we are gonna limit ourselves to Stan's version of CTE/Pro-One, why are we using your interpetation? Or anyone else's for that matter!! What is so damn hard about A,B,C left or right?

AtLarge
04-27-2011, 03:10 PM
If we are gonna limit ourselves to Stan's version of CTE/Pro-One, why are we using your interpetation? Or anyone else's for that matter!! What is so damn hard about A,B,C left or right?

pablo -- Although you don't say so, I imagine you are referring to my tip that I called "Use Streamlined Shot 'Call-Outs'." It's something I found helpful for myself as I moved from shot to shot. It is not something Stan said to do. If you prefer to use A/B/C rather than 1 and 2, and if you prefer to use left and right rather than in and out -- fine, do so. I imagine someone more experienced with Stan's CTE or Pro1 than I am would not actually have to call out anything to himself; he would just look and do.

There was nothing controversial or antagonistic about my "tip," it was just something that I thought might help another student or two. Why in the world would you react to it with antagonism? Calm down.

brophog
04-27-2011, 03:26 PM
If we are gonna limit ourselves to Stan's version of CTE/Pro-One, why are we using your interpetation? Or anyone else's for that matter!! What is so damn hard about A,B,C left or right?

The goal is to make one round ball hit another round ball and make it go to the desired target. This thread is nothing more than an attempt at helping all achieve that goal, using this methodology as a guide.

mohrt
04-27-2011, 03:31 PM
pablo -- Although you don't say so, I imagine you are referring to my tip that I called "Use Streamlined Shot 'Call-Outs'." It's something I found helpful for myself as I moved from shot to shot. It is not something Stan said to do. If you prefer to use A/B/C rather than 1 and 2, and if you prefer to use left and right rather than in and out -- fine, do so. I imagine someone more experienced with Stan's CTE or Pro1 than I am would not actually have to call out anything to himself; he would just look and do.

There was nothing controversial or antagonistic about my "tip," it was just something that I thought might help another student or two. Why in the world would you react to it with antagonism? Calm down.

I immediately began using 1-2 and in-out. It is much easier to think in these terms, for me anyways. I have found the vast majority of shots are 2-outs. (B, pivot away from target)

JoeyA
04-27-2011, 03:52 PM
Back to CTE tips. Here are the practice worksheets that coincide with the Pro 1 DVD.

http://www.ohrt.com/billiards/ProOnePractice.pdf

I take it you are the creator of this pdf file.... If so, you graduate maxima cum laude. I like it a lot and if people will watch the video and take this to the table they will accelerate their learning process.

Thanks,
JoeyA

scottjen26
04-27-2011, 04:43 PM
I immediately began using 1-2 and in-out. It is much easier to think in these terms, for me anyways. I have found the vast majority of shots are 2-outs. (B, pivot away from target)

Interesting, I find that probably 75% of the shots are 1's (A or C), maybe more, since a good portion of the time I'm looking for that 15 - 25 degree angle, not thin enough for a B hit. Agree on the outside pivot though.
Scott

mohrt
04-27-2011, 08:58 PM
Interesting, I find that probably 75% of the shots are 1's (A or C), maybe more, since a good portion of the time I'm looking for that 15 - 25 degree angle, not thin enough for a B hit. Agree on the outside pivot though.
Scott

I'm actually referring to the manual CTE shots from the DVD, not typical shooting.

LAMas
04-27-2011, 10:54 PM
I'm actually referring to the manual CTE shots from the DVD, not typical shooting.

Have you shot all of the shots in your diagrams? Do you shoot square to the shot or do you tilt your head to visualize the two aim lines - CTE and the 2nd ary? Do you change the distance between the CB and bridge - close for small distances between the CB and OB - and the converse?

SJDinPHX
04-28-2011, 01:46 AM
Not to be negative, but another 200+ thread. is not going to teach you how to make the ball go in th hole...There are too many variables... To rely on ANY system is a farce...Learn to play the game with all its variables, and you will enjoy more success than any "aiming system" can ever provide.

Most aiming systems are designed for beginners, or at best "C" players, who just can't make the ball go in the hole often enough...:cool:

pablocruz
04-28-2011, 03:49 AM
pablo -- Although you don't say so, I imagine you are referring to my tip that I called "Use Streamlined Shot 'Call-Outs'." It's something I found helpful for myself as I moved from shot to shot. It is not something Stan said to do. If you prefer to use A/B/C rather than 1 and 2, and if you prefer to use left and right rather than in and out -- fine, do so. I imagine someone more experienced with Stan's CTE or Pro1 than I am would not actually have to call out anything to himself; he would just look and do.

There was nothing controversial or antagonistic about my "tip," it was just something that I thought might help another student or two. Why in the world would you react to it with antagonism? Calm down.

Calm down? Is this supposed to be on your terms? There's no one here to appease you!! Is it a mere coincidence that you and others have tried to change the meaning of CTE/Pro-One?

JE54
04-28-2011, 05:02 AM
For Mohrt & Scottjen26, are you both playing / practicing on 9 ' tables ?
I think that could make a deference in whether your seeing more A&C or B 's.
Also maybe head postioning or where your eye is positioned.

pablocruz
04-28-2011, 05:29 AM
For Mohrt & Scottjen26, are you both playing / practicing on 9 ' tables ?
I think that could make a deference in whether your seeing more A&C or B 's.
Also maybe head postioning or where your eye is positioned.

You're right JE54, could be just the lay
of the land, or where the balls end up!!
But on the other hand I've tested friends
that have no Idea about CTE/Pro-One
and I set up reference shots that I know
are A or C and they tell me they see
reference point B!! Go figure!!

scottjen26
04-28-2011, 06:36 AM
I think Mohrt clarified that he was talking about the shots from the DVD, not typical shooting. If I was shooting true B shots most of the time in a typical game I would probably have to go back to position or speed control school... :)

It's possible that different people will see the lines differently, but probably not that drastically. I would think if you took a 15 - 20 degree cut and tried to sight middle of the ball (B) and pivoted you would miss repeatedly. But around the transition angles I could see where one person could see a A/C and outside pivot and the next person might see a B with an inside pivot.

And yes, I play exclusively on 9' tables these days, although I've played a bunch on 8' tables as well and I'm not sure the relative angles would change that much.

scottjen26
04-28-2011, 06:38 AM
Not to be negative, but another 200+ thread. is not going to teach you how to make the ball go in th hole...There are too many variables... To rely on ANY system is a farce...Learn to play the game with all its variables, and you will enjoy more success than any "aiming system" can ever provide.

Most aiming systems are designed for beginners, or at best "C" players, who just can't make the ball go in the hole often enough...:cool:

Tell that to Efren and Bustamante... :)

mohrt
04-28-2011, 06:48 AM
Not to be negative, but another 200+ thread. is not going to teach you how to make the ball go in th hole...There are too many variables... To rely on ANY system is a farce...Learn to play the game with all its variables, and you will enjoy more success than any "aiming system" can ever provide.

Most aiming systems are designed for beginners, or at best "C" players, who just can't make the ball go in the hole often enough...:cool:

Thanks for the pro tip! Man what was I thinking? :eek:

LAMas
04-28-2011, 07:16 AM
Not to be negative, but another 200+ thread. is not going to teach you how to make the ball go in th hole...There are too many variables... To rely on ANY system is a farce...Learn to play the game with all its variables, and you will enjoy more success than any "aiming system" can ever provide.

Most aiming systems are designed for beginners, or at best "C" players, who just can't make the ball go in the hole often enough...:cool:

Yes it can help those that can't aim by "feel" or GB.

mohrt
04-28-2011, 07:17 AM
Regarding the initial aim line, it should be fairly straight forward to work out. According to the DVD, the 1/2 tip pivot equals a 1/2 ball pivot on the object ball (anyone confirm?)

To find the initial aiming line, line up the cue through the cueball center, through the ghostball center, and reverse the 1/2 tip pivot. This should bring you to the initial aiming line. I tried making a crude diagram of where the aim line should be, if it is always a 1/2 ball pivot.

yellow ball = ghost ball
orange ball = object ball
white ball = cueball
black arrows = CTEL and ABC lines
green line = object ball target path
red line = pre-pivot aim line
purple line = post-pivot aim line

The first two are "B" with outside pivot. The last one is "C" with inside pivot. I was guessing at the pivoting point, but I imagine this should be in a place that creates a 1/2 tip off-center of cueball. ???

Maybe this is completely off-base (ie WRONG), but maybe a good starting point for discussion :)

http://www.ohrt.com/billiards/cte_aim.png

mohrt
04-28-2011, 07:29 AM
Here is the same diagram, but with the cueballs moved back to a more practical distance.

http://www.ohrt.com/billiards/cte_aim2.png

AtLarge
04-28-2011, 10:28 AM
scottjen26 and mohrt -- From your recent posts, I see that the terms "inside" and "outside" are being used differently by different people. Let me clarify.

When Stan uses the term "right" for a pivot, he means that the stick is offset 1/2 tip to the right of CB center and the tip is then pivoted from right to left to get to CB center. Similarly, a "left" pivot in Stan's terminology means the stick is offset to the left of CB center and the tip is then pivoted from left to right to get to CB center.

When Dr. Dave and I have used the terms "outside" and "inside," it means that the stick is offset to that side of the CB ("outside" means the side away from the cut or pocket) and then the pivot is to center CB from there. A cut to the left using Stan's "right" pivot is "outside."
A cut to the left using Stan's "left" pivot is "inside."
A cut to the right using Stan's "left" pivot is "outside."
A cut to the right using Stan's "right" pivot is "inside."

So outside and inside refer to the stick offset, or, equivalently, the side from which the tip is pivoted. This is explained in Dr. Dave's summary: http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#ProOne

mohrt
04-28-2011, 11:16 AM
scottjen26 and mohrt -- From your recent posts, I see that the terms "inside" and "outside" are being used differently by different people. Let me clarify.

When Stan uses the term "right" for a pivot, he means that the stick is offset 1/2 tip to the right of CB center and the tip is then pivoted from right to left to get to CB center. Similarly, a "left" pivot in Stan's terminology means the stick is offset to the left of CB center and the tip is then pivoted from left to right to get to CB center.

When Dr. Dave and I have used the terms "outside" and "inside," it means that the stick is offset to that side of the CB ("outside" means the side away from the cut or pocket) and then the pivot is to center CB from there. A cut to the left using Stan's "right" pivot is "outside."
A cut to the left using Stan's "left" pivot is "inside."
A cut to the right using Stan's "left" pivot is "outside."
A cut to the right using Stan's "right" pivot is "inside."

So outside and inside refer to the stick offset, or, equivalently, the side from which the tip is pivoted. This is explained in Dr. Dave's summary: http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#ProOne

I've been incorrectly understanding "outside" to mean "pivot toward the outside". I periodically have to check what "right" and "left" pivot means too, I get them mixed up. This terminology is subject to misunderstandings. Maybe use something like left-to-right pivot (L2R), right-to-left pivot (R2L) to make things absolutely clear.