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azbluemach1
03-30-2011, 05:26 PM
Yea, its probably a Wahambulance thread, but whatever.

My brief history: My dad had me hanging out in bars/pool halls watching him gamble from the time I was about 13. By the time I was 17 I had mostly seen it all. Never saw my dad "hustle" anyone - he brought 110% of whatever he had all the time. I gambled quite a bit through highschool and college, never for really high stakes but it was usally everything I had plus what I knew I could borrow. I hustled one guy one time (2 bros and a friend scam), and we ended up giving the money back to the guy the next day. Laying down is not in my nature.

I play in a TAP league with some buddies who I like to hang out with and drink some cold ones. League seems to be DESIGNED to encourage sand-bagging, which is cool, but it is super frustrating come tournament time when I am spotting someone a few games on the wire (or even one), and I get to sit in my chair while they run rack after rack, playing several balls above their rating. And this is just in locals, so I can only imagine how bad it is in vegas (which is the goal, ldo).

The poker player in me who is always looking for the most +ev situation says ez game, make 2 balls, play an uncalled safe every turn.

The purist in me says sandbaggers should be taken outside and taught a lesson, and is fairly irked that I am even posting this.

What say ye, AZB? Play the optimal strategy to stay ranked as low as possible, or play all out every game, and force yourself to play ghost perfect in every tournament match, plus make it harder for the captain to field a team with the handicap restrictions?

abie10
03-30-2011, 05:29 PM
The fact that you are even considering this, says a lot about you :)

Of course you go all out...why would you EVER play any other way?

Perk
03-30-2011, 05:34 PM
I wouldnt hold back, but I dont play league.

If you tend to fish to much, you will have a hard time releasing the hook when needed and it will impact your overall improvement to your game.

~Perk

nateobot
03-30-2011, 05:35 PM
Play to win every time I am playing.

azbluemach1
03-30-2011, 05:50 PM
The fact that you are even considering this, says a lot about you :)

Of course you go all out...why would you EVER play any other way?

I know, but I already said that in my post - which apparently you didn't read.

I can't win giving up weight to better players than me come tournament time. There are a ton of sandbaggers - league almost DEMANDS sandbagging. The way it is setup seems to be more a test of your ability to manage your rating instead of your pool ability.

MOJOE
03-30-2011, 05:55 PM
I give it 100% every time I step up. Screw the sandbagging wussies.

trustyrusty
03-30-2011, 06:27 PM
There are two answers to your question....if you want to win when it matters - CHEAT! However, if you have some integrity, and more character than the players who do sandbag, DON'T CHEAT, and lose. I ALWAYS choose to play to the best of my ability, and don't mind at all if that makes me the sucker in the eyes of those who don't....

justadub
03-30-2011, 06:36 PM
A lot of folks believe that sandbagging is so rampant, and I feel that is that folks just are looking for an excuse when they get beat.

Do people cheat, sure. As many as people would have you believe.... I just don't think so.

At least I hope not.

*** Answer to the question, yes I go all out every time. But I suck, so you might think I'm sandbagging anyway! :p

Scott Lee
03-30-2011, 06:42 PM
azbluemach1...Sandbagging in the TAP league...say it ain't so! LMAO Like was mentioned by another poster, the fact that you consider cheating "cool" says a lot about you as a person. Even worse is the "everybody does it, so it's ok" thought process.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I play in a TAP league with some buddies who I like to hang out with and drink some cold ones. League seems to be DESIGNED to encourage sand-bagging, which is cool, but it is super frustrating come tournament time when I am spotting someone a few games on the wire (or even one), and I get to sit in my chair while they run rack after rack, playing several balls above their rating. And this is just in locals, so I can only imagine how bad it is in vegas (which is the goal, ldo).

mantis99
03-30-2011, 06:49 PM
The fact that you are even considering this, says a lot about you :)

Of course you go all out...why would you EVER play any other way?

Agree 100%. However, it obviously happens frequently in league play, and those that sandbag probably won't admit it here. Why anyone would even play competitively at all and do his is beyond me. Its sad that we even need a thread like this.

chevybob20
03-30-2011, 06:55 PM
Your game won't improve as fast while sandbagging. Learn how to beat opponents badly. Would you rather be known as the guy that can't be beat because you sandbag or the guy that can't be beat because you're a Super 7 monster?

azbluemach1
03-30-2011, 07:46 PM
azbluemach1...Sandbagging in the TAP league...say it ain't so! LMAO Like was mentioned by another poster, the fact that you consider cheating "cool" says a lot about you as a person. Even worse is the "everybody does it, so it's ok" thought process.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

The "Cool" comment was tounge in cheek, obviously.

Me playing in tap league would be EXACTLY like me playing you as a B player and giving you 3 on the wire in a race to 5.

Would you give that spot if you were me? Would you take 3 on the wire from a player 3 balls worse than you?

If not, the ONLY option is to be able to break and run a 6 back of 8ball on a bar table any time you want too. Im *close* but not quite there yet.

Can anyone else tell me how to be competitive when the system is so ripe to be manipulated that 1/2 the players there cant resist it?

justadub
03-30-2011, 07:58 PM
The "Cool" comment was tounge in cheek, obviously.

Me playing in tap league would be EXACTLY like me playing you as a B player and giving you 3 on the wire in a race to 5.

Would you give that spot if you were me? Would you take 3 on the wire from a player 3 balls worse than you?

If not, the ONLY option is to be able to break and run a 6 back of 8ball on a bar table any time you want too. Im *close* but not quite there yet.

Can anyone else tell me how to be competitive when the system is so ripe to be manipulated that 1/2 the players there cant resist it?

Half? Really? Half the players involved are actively cheating?

If so, it's time to find another league.

I think you're overstating it, a bit. I could be wrong, I often am. Just ask my wife. But as the esteemed prophet Charles Barkley says on tv lately... "I may be wrong, but I doubt it."

(Just wanted to use that line. Goofy commercial, but I love Charles-speak. It's turrible.)

DelaWho???
03-31-2011, 04:40 AM
I know, but I already said that in my post - which apparently you didn't read.

I can't win giving up weight to better players than me come tournament time. There are a ton of sandbaggers - league almost DEMANDS sandbagging. The way it is setup seems to be more a test of your ability to manage your rating instead of your pool ability.

Maybe you shouldn't be trying to run out on the "better" player unless the run is there and it is a high percentage that you can manage that run and get out. Nothing is worse in 8 ball than failing to run and leaving your opponent without any obsticles on the table. There is nothing "sandbagging" about playing a defense game if that's what the table calls for.

Sometimes the better player isn't the most skilled at the table, he's the smartest at the table.

I try to give everyone my best game every time. That game might be strong defense or run out offense depending on the situation. There is a prevailing notion in 8 ball and league especially that you MUST attempt to run out every turn to the table. I have heard from many older players that in the old days playing defense could get your ass kicked in the parking lot. It didn't stop the good players from doing it, they just got better at hiding it. The deliberately missed shot is accompanied by some play acting so as not to reveal that it was deliberate. This is what a lot of people call sandbagging.

If you are going to play defense in league or tourney own it, be proud of it. It takes quite a bit of skill to lay down a lock up safety. I love playing guys who want to run every turn at the table. Sooner or later they are going to F it up. That's where I come in with no obstructions on the table to run out.

:cool:

DallasHopps
03-31-2011, 04:59 AM
I play in an APA league, and I play to the best of my ability every time I go to the table. A lot of things factor in during league play, though, that make me shoot below my shaky skill level. Things like the little troll girl playing a Ke$ha marathon on the too-loud jukebox, the obnoxious fat guy I'm playing who smells like vinegar, or the fact that I'm playing someone who has two other losing teams on different nights solely to keep their ringer team's handicaps low... it happens, and it irritates me, but I play hard because when I win in spite of all of these obstacles it's like a subliminal eff you to the other guy.

Sam at TAP
03-31-2011, 05:25 AM
Can anyone else tell me how to be competitive when the system is so ripe to be manipulated that 1/2 the players there cant resist it?

Justadub.....1/2?...You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Post something that is worth reading and closer to the truth. Please! If what you say is true we wouldn't be growing as fast as we are. Come on man....Please don't insult AZB readers intelligence because it only shows the lack of yours.

justadub
03-31-2011, 06:35 AM
Can anyone else tell me how to be competitive when the system is so ripe to be manipulated that 1/2 the players there cant resist it?

Justadub.....1/2?...You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Post something that is worth reading and closer to the truth. Please! If what you say is true we wouldn't be growing as fast as we are. Come on man....Please don't insult AZB readers intelligence because it only shows the lack of yours.

uhhh...... If you re-read the thread and my posts, I'm pointing out that same thing. I was replying to the OP, who believes half his league is sandbagging.

I don't believe it.

Do you?

I'll stroll along now so I don't insult anyone elses intelligence. :p Since mine is obviously lacking.

ctyhntr
03-31-2011, 06:41 AM
I fully agree. So sad that there are people lost their moral compass and don't care about the difference between doing whats right versus wrong.


The fact that you are even considering this, says a lot about you :)

Of course you go all out...why would you EVER play any other way?

LeagueGuy
03-31-2011, 07:18 AM
Can anyone else tell me how to be competitive when the system is so ripe to be manipulated that 1/2 the players there cant resist it?

Justadub.....1/2?...You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Post something that is worth reading and closer to the truth. Please! If what you say is true we wouldn't be growing as fast as we are. Come on man....Please don't insult AZB readers intelligence because it only shows the lack of yours.


I believe that you owe Justadub an apology. He is actually defending leagues saying that he doesn't think sandbagging is as rampant as everyone thinks it is, and you go off on HIM.

As I said, I belive you owe Justadub an apology.

Leagueguy

CocoboloCowboy
03-31-2011, 07:20 AM
If winning isn't everything, why do they keep score?
Vince Lombardi

Winners never quit and quitters never win.
Vince Lombardi

Winning is habit. Unfortunately, so is losing.
Vince Lombardi

Winning is not a sometime thing; it's an all time thing. You don't win once in a while, you don't do things right once in a while, you do them right all the time. Winning is habit. Unfortunately, so is losing.
Vince Lombardi

Winning is not everything, but wanting to win is.
Vince Lombardi

Winning isn't everything, but the will to win is everything.
Vince Lombardi

Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing.
Vince Lombardi

alstl
03-31-2011, 07:21 AM
I'm not bored enough to spend an evening in a pool hall or bar deliberately missing shots.

LeagueGuy
03-31-2011, 07:27 AM
I wonder if this was not a public poll if it would make a difference in the answers. People are less likely to speak the truth when they know others can tell what they said.

just curious.

Leagueguy

JolietJames
03-31-2011, 08:39 AM
Sam you were out of line and YOU look like the fool at the moment.
Bagging is a huge problem in leagues for more than the obvious reasons. I was on a team with a woman who was a 4 who won a little over half the time. She was not hiding anything and we almost qualified for Vegas. The next year on a different team, they made it to the show. She played the best two days of pool in her life and was kicked out of the tourney along with her team and got a two year (i think 2) ban from apa play. She's not a bagger, she just caught fire and was penalized to the fullest extent of the law. The apa was so (angry at/scared of) baggers they took it out on her. I feel bad for her because if she plays after the ban she will be a weak 5, probably forever.
I used to hide my speed but I'm too old for that stuff now. This will be my last session due to everyone being raised enough that we can't field a team of friends anymore. Oh well, it's acs only from now on and that's fine.

donuteric
03-31-2011, 08:51 AM
There's no point to sandbag.

I also involve in APA. This past summer I joined a new team because we only had high ranked players in my regular team. Played there for one week and left. The captain told me they sandbag to qualify for Vegas. He went, "everyone does this, so we do it too." He put a SL5 against a SL4 (the SL5 can easily compete even at 7). The match went on, and the SL5 now needed one point to win the match. His opponent scratched, and he intentionally missed the ball in hand. The opponent's team knew exactly what was going on. I stood up and said, "if you want to sandbag, at least do it smart." I disassembled my cues and walked away.

Lexicologist71
03-31-2011, 09:03 AM
Your game won't improve as fast while sandbagging. Learn how to beat opponents badly. Would you rather be known as the guy that can't be beat because you sandbag or the guy that can't be beat because you're a Super 7 monster?

chevybob hit the nail on the head. It's much better to crush everyone because that's what you've practiced than to squeak by unnoticed and do it by the skin of your teeth. Your game will improve that way and you'll push yourself to do stuff you previously would never even see.

supergreenman
03-31-2011, 09:47 AM
I didn't get here by sandbagging:

Season High Points

1 ROUTLEDGE, James 880
2 Piche, Chris 830
3 Bradko, Dean 814
4 Johannesson, Clinton 805
5 Turner, Bryan 792
6 Maurer, Kris 777
7 Hardin, Dennis 766
8 Parsons, Dave 760
9 Lee, Jonathan 754
10 Strickland, Rick 743

supergreenman
03-31-2011, 09:52 AM
I wonder if this was not a public poll if it would make a difference in the answers. People are less likely to speak the truth when they know others can tell what they said.

just curious.

Leagueguy

I hadn't thought of that when I voted. I guess I'm either nieve or don't care what others think of me.

azbluemach1
03-31-2011, 09:54 AM
Can anyone else tell me how to be competitive when the system is so ripe to be manipulated that 1/2 the players there cant resist it?

Justadub.....1/2?...You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Post something that is worth reading and closer to the truth. Please! If what you say is true we wouldn't be growing as fast as we are. Come on man....Please don't insult AZB readers intelligence because it only shows the lack of yours.

Sam - I am the one who said that.

WHat percentage of players are "Managing their rating" then?

azbluemach1
03-31-2011, 09:56 AM
So, James, lets say there is another player of equal skill and he managed to coast through as a 4 or 5. Your going to "CRUSH" him at the tournament right? Giving up 2-3 games?

If so, you are sandbagging.

IF not, you are getting cheated.



I didn't get here by sandbagging:

Season High Points

1 ROUTLEDGE, James 880
2 Piche, Chris 830
3 Bradko, Dean 814
4 Johannesson, Clinton 805
5 Turner, Bryan 792
6 Maurer, Kris 777
7 Hardin, Dennis 766
8 Parsons, Dave 760
9 Lee, Jonathan 754
10 Strickland, Rick 743

azbluemach1
03-31-2011, 09:59 AM
I wonder if this was not a public poll if it would make a difference in the answers. People are less likely to speak the truth when they know others can tell what they said.

just curious.

Leagueguy

I wanted this poll to be anonymous - my bad, I blew it.

donuteric
03-31-2011, 10:03 AM
I wanted this poll to be anonymous - my bad, I blew it.

I used vBulletin for years and years and I never realized I could click on the numbers in the pool to see who voted that option till after reading this thread...

supergreenman
03-31-2011, 10:05 AM
So, James, lets say there is another player of equal skill and he managed to coast through as a 4 or 5. Your going to "CRUSH" him at the tournament right? Giving up 2-3 games?

If so, you are sandbagging.

IF not, you are getting cheated.

I may or may not beat him, however I will be able to sleep at night knowing I gave my best.

In the end I look at pool the same way I look at golf. The only person I have to outshine is myself.

justadub
03-31-2011, 10:11 AM
I used vBulletin for years and years and I never realized I could click on the numbers in the pool to see who voted that option till after reading this thread...

Now that've pointed it out, I'm in the know, too...

Funny. You really can learn something new every day.

quadrary
03-31-2011, 10:38 AM
I play tap and apa and believe that all to often what is considered sandbagging is often lazy and inattentive scorekeeping. I played a match last week against a low hc player and sold out with a freek scratch on the 8 ball i made due to a miscue. during the rest of the match i played about 15 safes as the other player was on the hill. The next week my skill level was dropped even though i have only lost one match and won this one. I asked the scorekeeper for that match how many safes they had for me and was told one. I called all the safes but at least 14 were marked as missed shots. I told the league manager and played this week at my proper skill level.

capnstabn
03-31-2011, 10:50 AM
Pretty impressed only 1 of 70 was an admitted sandbagger.

Anunnaki
03-31-2011, 11:18 AM
Pretty impressed only 1 of 70 was an admitted sandbagger.

Add myself. I rarely play true speed in 8 ball except on an out run.

I play smart, play defense, hang back and when the opportunities are there, I'm out. 8-ball for example, is not about dropping balls on every shot, its about playing smarter than your opponent. It is pointless to drop balls, if there are no real out opportunities at the table. If that is the case, I'm coasting by opening up shots instead of dropping balls.

I avoid one-ball-hell (a term from The 8-Ball Bible) by not giving my opponent a table without obsticals and opportunities to defend me, if needed. Knowing that, I intentionally try to reverse this role. You can win ever single game, but your opponent still thinks they had a legitimate chance. They do, but would have to break open the table on their way out.

supergreenman
03-31-2011, 11:29 AM
Add myself. I rarely play true speed in 8 ball except on an out run.

I play smart, play defense, hang back and when the opportunities are there, I'm out. 8-ball for example, is not about dropping balls on every shot, its about playing smarter than your opponent. It is pointless to drop balls, if there are no real out opportunities at the table. If that is the case, I'm coasting by opening up shots instead of dropping balls.

I avoid one-ball-hell (a term from The 8-Ball Bible) by not giving my opponent a table without obsticals and opportunities to defend me, if needed. Knowing that, I intentionally try to reverse this role. You can win ever single game, but your opponent still thinks they had a legitimate chance. They do, but would have to break open the table on their way out.

Dude this is legitimate play not sandbagging. You're playing to win, not playing to influence handicaps for an advantage.

Huge difference.

justadub
03-31-2011, 11:31 AM
Add myself. I rarely play true speed in 8 ball except on an out run.

I play smart, play defense, hang back and when the opportunities are there, I'm out. 8-ball for example, is not about dropping balls on every shot, its about playing smarter than your opponent. It is pointless to drop balls, if there are no real out opportunities at the table. If that is the case, I'm coasting by opening up shots instead of dropping balls.

I avoid one-ball-hell (a term from The 8-Ball Bible) by not giving my opponent a table without obsticals and opportunities to defend me, if needed. Knowing that, I intentionally try to reverse this role. You can win ever single game, but your opponent still thinks they had a legitimate chance. They do, but would have to break open the table on their way out.

There is a difference between playing a defensive game and being a sandbagger.

Playing a defensive game is smart (or can be) but isn't cheating. As long as whoever is keeping score is doing so correctly, it is truly a part of the game.

Sandbagging is intentionally losing or inflating your innings count (or other handicap determining criteria) to give you an advantage.

Anunnaki
03-31-2011, 11:46 AM
There is a difference between playing a defensive game and being a sandbagger.

Playing a defensive game is smart (or can be) but isn't cheating. As long as whoever is keeping score is doing so correctly, it is truly a part of the game.

Sandbagging is intentionally losing or inflating your innings count (or other handicap determining criteria) to give you an advantage.

I figured it was both. I am intentionally inflating my innings to win. The results seem mostly the same because many opponents don't mark defense correctly.

justadub
03-31-2011, 12:41 PM
I figured it was both. I am intentionally inflating my innings to win. The results seem mostly the same because many opponents don't mark defense correctly.

You are correct, that defensive shots aren't marked correctly far too often.

I think you'll find that most people here will define sandbagging as trying to keep your handicap lower than it should be, by intentionally losing, or by missing shots intentionally in order to pad your inning count. I also think that most everyone here will say that making a good defensive shot, for the sake of making a good defensive shot (meaning to leave your opponent in a bad position to shoot from) is just playing good pool.

Scott Lee
03-31-2011, 12:45 PM
...and add to that, if Sam really believes that nobody in TAP leagues sandbags, he's as delusional as the OP...who thinks everybody does, and it's okay! :rolleyes:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I believe that you owe Justadub an apology. He is actually defending leagues saying that he doesn't think sandbagging is as rampant as everyone thinks it is, and you go off on HIM.

As I said, I belive you owe Justadub an apology.

Leagueguy

Scott Lee
03-31-2011, 12:49 PM
Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner! :grin: This is why, when I was an APA LO, I REQUIRED every team member both to know how, AND participate in match scorekeeping. What usually happens is that teams have "designated" scorekeepers, and wierdly they usually sit near each other, often asking "How many innings/defensive shots did you have for that last match?" Keep your own scoresheets people...it's correct scorekeeping that allows the handicap system to function properly.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I play tap and apa and believe that all to often what is considered sandbagging is often lazy and inattentive scorekeeping.

gpeezy
03-31-2011, 01:12 PM
i voted sandbag because if you move up in sl u will eventually have to re-adjust your team roster. if you enjoy your team it sucks to leave it because your SL. and, in vegas they are all sandbagging. when in rome

Celtic
03-31-2011, 02:21 PM
C: Play BCA and not have to deal with all of that crap.

gpeezy
03-31-2011, 02:22 PM
C: Play BCA and not have to deal with all of that crap.

i second this fo shizzle

Aaron_S
03-31-2011, 02:30 PM
After years of avoiding leagues like Kevin Trudeau merchandise, I joined a team in the local TAP league this session. The team that won the TAP team 8-ball national championship plays out of this room, and they are a good bunch of guys. I do believe sandbagging is quite prevalent, but I think everyone just accepts it as part of league play and doesn't let it bother them. As for myself, one of the conditions for my joining the team was that I could just play pool and not worry about innings or ball counts or whatever else goes into the calculation. In my case it didn't really matter, because I was going to hit 7 within a few weeks anyway, but even if I were a 4 I would not have tried to hold myself to a certain level.

It's bad enough without sandbagging, because the rankings only go to 7, which is not a high enough number to hinder a lot of players. We have several guys in our little league who are capable of going 2 or 3 weeks without missing a ball in their league matches. If a player of that caliber sandbags and holds himself to a 6, it's really bad for his opponents, who probably wouldn't be getting enough of a spot even if he were a 7. I understand that's just a limitation of the league, but I think people should play to the best of their ability and not make it any worse than it already is.

Aaron

ridinda9
03-31-2011, 04:31 PM
Come on man....Please don't insult AZB readers intelligence because it only shows the lack of yours.
You owe Justadub an apology . You're online now , & I've sent you a PM about this . . .
post up !


Play to win every time I am playing.

Many 'baggers are playing to win , too . . . they're just making it take a little longer !

Your game won't improve as fast while sandbagging. Learn how to beat opponents badly. Would you rather be known as the guy that can't be beat because you sandbag or the guy that can't be beat because you're a Super 7 monster?

You can beat your opponents just as badly ( and it frustrates them more ! ) by keeping them in jail all night . Plus , playing 'lock up' pool lets you make more shots , which equals more table time . . . .
'precision misses' , i.e. striking directly on the 'damm titty' are just as difficult as pocketing balls!
I'd rather be known as the guy that went home with the check . . . .:cool:

scottjen26
03-31-2011, 06:14 PM
I've always played the best I can. Before moving south and playing in the APA, I played in pretty competitive 2 person in house leagues in Milwaukee, close to BCA format. My goal every session was to have the highest individual points, most break run outs, highest night, most perfect nights, etc., screw the handicap.

I must have played with 3 different partners over 6 - 8 years, typically 2 leagues in the fall and 2 in the spring, and in all of those matches we only got a spot one match, and that was one point... Typically we were giving up a medium amount of weight, and sometimes a ridiculous amount, but I think if you are the better player you should win regardless, and it should be tough and make you play better to win, that's the whole point of the handicapping systems, if they work right.

Scott

TX Poolnut
03-31-2011, 06:19 PM
Play BCA and go all out everytime.

Scott Lee
03-31-2011, 08:02 PM
Aaron_S...Tap, tap, tap! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

After years of avoiding leagues like Kevin Trudeau merchandise, I joined a team in the local TAP league this session. The team that won the TAP team 8-ball national championship plays out of this room, and they are a good bunch of guys. I do believe sandbagging is quite prevalent, but I think everyone just accepts it as part of league play and doesn't let it bother them. As for myself, one of the conditions for my joining the team was that I could just play pool and not worry about innings or ball counts or whatever else goes into the calculation. In my case it didn't really matter, because I was going to hit 7 within a few weeks anyway, but even if I were a 4 I would not have tried to hold myself to a certain level.

It's bad enough without sandbagging, because the rankings only go to 7, which is not a high enough number to hinder a lot of players. We have several guys in our little league who are capable of going 2 or 3 weeks without missing a ball in their league matches. If a player of that caliber sandbags and holds himself to a 6, it's really bad for his opponents, who probably wouldn't be getting enough of a spot even if he were a 7. I understand that's just a limitation of the league, but I think people should play to the best of their ability and not make it any worse than it already is.

Aaron

JDB
03-31-2011, 08:58 PM
I've always played the best I can. Before moving south and playing in the APA, I played in pretty competitive 2 person in house leagues in Milwaukee, close to BCA format. My goal every session was to have the highest individual points, most break run outs, highest night, most perfect nights, etc., screw the handicap.

I must have played with 3 different partners over 6 - 8 years, typically 2 leagues in the fall and 2 in the spring, and in all of those matches we only got a spot one match, and that was one point... Typically we were giving up a medium amount of weight, and sometimes a ridiculous amount, but I think if you are the better player you should win regardless, and it should be tough and make you play better to win, that's the whole point of the handicapping systems, if they work right.

Scott

I actually don't mind playing sandbaggers. I figure this is my opportunity to try and play perfectly; run out when I can and play safe when I can't, regardless of how many games I am giving up.

If I lose, I don't complain because I should have played better regardless of their skill level, whether sandbagging or not.

However, that is just my opinion.

justadub
03-31-2011, 09:00 PM
You owe Justadub an apology . You're online now , & I've sent you a PM about this . . .
post up !

[

I'm not particularly concerned about an apology. It's really no skin off my teeth. I'm more amused by it than anything else.

Thanks, to you and LeagueGuy for saying it tho. (And anyone else who might have, I've forgotten the earlier part of the thread now.)

This issue really is how folks exaggerate sandbagging, in any league. It seems just a bit too easy to throw that out there, likely because someone lost and isn't happy about it. Yes, I'm not so naive as to think people don't cheat, because they certainly will. But the claims that "half the league is sandbagging" and "everyone in Vegas is a sandbagger, in order to get there" seem way too overblown.

lorider
03-31-2011, 09:20 PM
I'm not particularly concerned about an apology. It's really no skin off my teeth. I'm more amused by it than anything else.

Thanks, to you and LeagueGuy for saying it tho. (And anyone else who might have, I've forgotten the earlier part of the thread now.)

This issue really is how folks exaggerate sandbagging, in any league. It seems just a bit too easy to throw that out there, likely because someone lost and isn't happy about it. Yes, I'm not so naive as to think people don't cheat, because they certainly will. But the claims that "half the league is sandbagging" and "everyone in Vegas is a sandbagger, in order to get there" seem way too overblown.

my turn to say tap tap tap to you, and i dont mean the league either lol. yea there are people that will cheat to win. i agree that i dont think its as prevalent as some people claim.

i dont know a game or sport out there that does not have cheating going on in one form or another. why would you not expect to see it in pool?
there is always going to be some one that wants to win bad enough to cheat.

we dont live in a perfect world, do you expect every one in pool to act perfect? it would be nice to think that but if you did you are not facing reality.

PaulieB
03-31-2011, 10:26 PM
I'm amazed that only 8-9% admit to regulating their rating yet from what I have seen roughly 25%+ people that play league are concerned about this.

I left league play after being demanded by my captain to slow down my speed. At least 4 of the people on the team were dumping shots with a free safety to extend the games and their rating.

Luxury
04-01-2011, 12:06 AM
Attention poll starters: Making a the poll participants public with their answers makes your poll results skewed. Especially this one.

Sam at TAP
04-02-2011, 08:43 AM
To Justadub,

I did misread your post and I do apologize to you for that. You have to realize that everytime I post on here TAP's growth (about 2-3 times a year) I get attacked as you can see. And sometimes I do misread a few posts. Everytime I post people come out of the woodwork attacking TAP and demanding numbers, stats, etc. Why should I post them? They are going to twist it the way they want to see fit to their advantage. All I am saying is where TAP is available and that we are growing and to try us. If someone doesn't want to try TAP or like to see my posts on here then please go about your business and play in the league you decide but please show me the same respect and not attack TAP or myself. I have never came on here and started attacking people. I only try to defend TAP and myself when these attacks occur. I am sure this post will get some negative posts as well if past history proves to repeat....PS...Ridinda9...Next time when I get attacked, I expect apologies as well. But I am not holding my breath on it either.

ridinda9
04-02-2011, 09:03 AM
thank you for posting the apology to Justadub .
It was the hallmark of gentleman .:cool:

I'll turn you back to green as soon as vBulletin lets me ! (typically 48 hrs)

justadub
04-02-2011, 10:47 AM
thank you for posting the apology to Justadub .
It was the hallmark of gentleman .:cool:

I'll turn you back to green as soon as vBulletin lets me ! (typically 48 hrs)

Don't worry, I'll fix it. :p

jlynn73
04-02-2011, 02:57 PM
tough to sandbag when sporting no handicap, but as far as teams go... people just bring in subs to do the sandbagging for them.

does the handicap help you at state? You get these teams that do half way decent in league, but are going to get detroyed by the sandbaggers at state.

I guess my suggestion would be to play your own game and not worry about how other people are trying to manipulate the system.

gman_tx
04-02-2011, 10:51 PM
I play Tap and have played APA in the past and can say that I play full out every time I am at the table. Do I ever see sandbagging yes of course I do. It is the nature of a system their are some people that will always try to find a loophole to give them an advantage be it pool or anything else out their. I do think that the percentage is not as high as most people suggest (it is usually just a sore loser who thinks they are better than they are or just someone of a lower rank on a good role or just naturally inproving his game.)

For the people that say just play BCA and don't worry about it I don't think that works for everyone. Most people just starting would be uncomfortable playing in a non handicaped league just as most 4 and 5 ranked players from Tap and APA don't want to go to BCA where they will probably lose 4 out of 5 weeks. While I am not sure of the last statement that is certainly the perception of myself and most people that play in handicap league that the competition is of a much higher level and a Tap or APA 4 and 5 could not be competitive on a weekly basis.