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Jaden
04-01-2011, 11:00 AM
There are all kinds of aiming systems that can put you on the correct starting aimline...

There are NO aiming systems that can put you on the correct finishing aimline for all shots.

there are too many variables.

Squirt, CIT, swerve, etc....

there are ways to adjust and compensate for these. some are easier and better than others.

LD shaft tech helps to make adjusting for squirt easier, so does BHE with standard shafts.

There are systems that can help adjust for swerve.

In the end, some amount of feel will come into play for any system.

The size of the pockets, speed of the cloth, rails, humidity, dirtiness of the balls, type of tip, type of chaulk will all come into play in determining how much wiggle room there is and how much adjustment for various shots is necessary.

All of these arguments about systems versus feel, versus which systems etc is moot.

the bottom line is the more practice and the more practical knowledge you achieve will determine how well you play. The more systematic and the more natural your stroke, the more consistently you will be able to play.

Feel players will naturally have an easier time maintaining a rythm.

systematic players will naturally have an easier time getting back into stroke when they get into a funk.

there are pros and cons to every method available and it will be up to the individual to determine what works best for them.

You can become a top rotation player using nothing but draw follow and tangent lines with proper speed control.

You can become a top eightballer with a solid stroke and good pocketing skills and proper shot selection.

You can become a top player in all disciplines with dedication and feel, with natural ability, or with Systems....

The arguments can be fun and the arguments can be aggravating. Let's just keep it all in perspective ok????


Jaden

jingle
04-01-2011, 11:08 AM
Well said Jaden. :clapping:

fabfastfredyy
04-01-2011, 11:32 AM
There are all kinds of aiming systems that can put you on the correct starting aimline...

There are NO aiming systems that can put you on the correct finishing aimline for all shots.

there are too many variables.

Squirt, CIT, swerve, etc....

there are ways to adjust and compensate for these. some are easier and better than others.

LD shaft tech helps to make adjusting for squirt easier, so does BHE with standard shafts.

There are systems that can help adjust for swerve.

In the end, some amount of feel will come into play for any system.

The size of the pockets, speed of the cloth, rails, humidity, dirtiness of the balls, type of tip, type of chaulk will all come into play in determining how much wiggle room there is and how much adjustment for various shots is necessary.

All of these arguments about systems versus feel, versus which systems etc is moot.

the bottom line is the more practice and the more practical knowledge you achieve will determine how well you play. The more systematic and the more natural your stroke, the more consistently you will be able to play.

Feel players will naturally have an easier time maintaining a rythm.

systematic players will naturally have an easier time getting back into stroke when they get into a funk.

there are pros and cons to every method available and it will be up to the individual to determine what works best for them.

You can become a top rotation player using nothing but draw follow and tangent lines with proper speed control.

You can become a top eightballer with a solid stroke and good pocketing skills and proper shot selection.

You can become a top player in all disciplines with dedication and feel, with natural ability, or with Systems....

The arguments can be fun and the arguments can be aggravating. Let's just keep it all in perspective ok????


Jaden

Most of the aiming systems advocate concentration on object ball, which on a very advance level is totally unnecessary. It does matter, but its not all that important. I think this is obvious as most advance players pockets balls really well.

Jaden
04-01-2011, 03:23 PM
Most of the aiming systems advocate concentration on object ball, which on a very advance level is totally unnecessary. It does matter, but its not all that important. I think this is obvious as most advance players pockets balls really well.

What do you mean by focus on the OB??? Do you mean as you stroke, before you stroke as you sight in??? At some point you have to focus on the OB....

Can you explain what you mean by this?

Jaden

Johnnyt
04-01-2011, 03:39 PM
What do you mean by focus on the OB??? Do you mean as you stroke, before you stroke as you sight in??? At some point you have to focus on the OB....

Can you explain what you mean by this?

Jaden

Great post Jaden. I also am having trouble figuring out what he ment by not focusing on the OB. Johnnyt

Mikjary
04-01-2011, 04:17 PM
He's right, but I'm still working on it. Joan Vickers of the University of Calgary has published her findings about things like, The Quiet Eye, and eye patterns in sports. She found a lot of interesting stuff out about how athletes use their eyes at an advanced level.

She found that when shooting freethrows, the elite athletes are not actually looking at the rim or rim area as a target. Their gaze actually drifts to a point like the upper part of the backboard and, if i recall, their peripheral vision takes over and makes the shot. Amazing stuff.

I'm working with this idea on an aiming system that possibly Buddy (not sure if this is true) uses. I got this info from a running partner of his that I've known for many years, but won't feed the fish!! Bastitch! I'll get him to crack one of these days. :grin:

Good post, Jaden.

Best,
Mike

336Robin
04-01-2011, 05:25 PM
He's right, but I'm still working on it. Joan Vickers of the University of Calgary has published her findings about things like, The Quiet Eye, and eye patterns in sports. She found a lot of interesting stuff out about how athletes use their eyes at an advanced level.

She found that when shooting freethrows, the elite athletes are not actually looking at the rim or rim area as a target. Their gaze actually drifts to a point like the upper part of the backboard and, if i recall, their peripheral vision takes over and makes the shot. Amazing stuff.

I'm working with this idea on an aiming system that possibly Buddy (not sure if this is true) uses. I got this info from a running partner of his that I've known for many years, but won't feed the fish!! Bastitch! I'll get him to crack one of these days. :grin:

Good post, Jaden.

Best,
Mike

Mikjary,
As a person who played baseball and was a no hit pitcher and now a pool player I find that interesting. I can def see her point with pitching or throwing balls at a distance and even some shots with more distance might fall into that category. What I have found is that you develop a clue system that gets you on and while that is a guide you let it be just that a guide and dont sweat over it just learn to use it comfortably and those guides work very well.
I have a way I approach shots and a way I look at the shots a clue I use to look at the shot so I know the allowances to make and then I get down and shoot. I dont sweat it because Ive learned that what I do works. When I do what Im supposed to I just dont seem to miss even the longer shots. When I miss I usually skipped a step, was in a bind or something that I then know not to do again.
With all this rage over aiming systems I think you are right people dont allow enough of their intution to take over which is why I promote the Natural methods I do, I cant help it they seem to draw your attention and work in the way you described but sweating over the small stuff doesnt help you to let yourself do what you know is right but many of us need at least a clue to be able to get ourselves positioned to be right and that is what my stuff is all about.

336Robin :thumbup:
aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com

http://274928807619529663.weebly.com/

Mikjary
04-01-2011, 07:27 PM
Mikjary,
As a person who played baseball and was a no hit pitcher and now a pool player I find that interesting. I can def see her point with pitching or throwing balls at a distance and even some shots with more distance might fall into that category. What I have found is that you develop a clue system that gets you on and while that is a guide you let it be just that a guide and dont sweat over it just learn to use it comfortably and those guides work very well.
I have a way I approach shots and a way I look at the shots a clue I use to look at the shot so I know the allowances to make and then I get down and shoot. I dont sweat it because Ive learned that what I do works. When I do what Im supposed to I just dont seem to miss even the longer shots. When I miss I usually skipped a step, was in a bind or something that I then know not to do again.
With all this rage over aiming systems I think you are right people dont allow enough of their intution to take over which is why I promote the Natural methods I do, I cant help it they seem to draw your attention and work in the way you described but sweating over the small stuff doesnt help you to let yourself do what you know is right but many of us need at least a clue to be able to get ourselves positioned to be right and that is what my stuff is all about.

336Robin :thumbup:
aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com

http://274928807619529663.weebly.com/

I pitched up to about 20 years old, but loved to hit too much and moved to the outfield. As an adult I taught hitting and loved that, never to have anything again, to do with pitching. If you google PBS and search Joan Vickers, there are videos about a lot of sports including baseball. There is some neat stuff on putting, also.

Best,
Mike

pdcue
04-02-2011, 12:56 AM
There are all kinds of aiming systems that can put you on the correct starting aimline...

There are NO aiming systems that can put you on the correct finishing aimline for all shots.

there are too many variables.

Squirt, CIT, swerve, etc....

there are ways to adjust and compensate for these. some are easier and better than others.

LD shaft tech helps to make adjusting for squirt easier, so does BHE with standard shafts.

There are systems that can help adjust for swerve.

In the end, some amount of feel will come into play for any system.

The size of the pockets, speed of the cloth, rails, humidity, dirtiness of the balls, type of tip, type of chaulk will all come into play in determining how much wiggle room there is and how much adjustment for various shots is necessary.

All of these arguments about systems versus feel, versus which systems etc is moot.

the bottom line is the more practice and the more practical knowledge you achieve will determine how well you play. The more systematic and the more natural your stroke, the more consistently you will be able to play.

Feel players will naturally have an easier time maintaining a rythm.

systematic players will naturally have an easier time getting back into stroke when they get into a funk.

there are pros and cons to every method available and it will be up to the individual to determine what works best for them.

You can become a top rotation player using nothing but draw follow and tangent lines with proper speed control.

You can become a top eightballer with a solid stroke and good pocketing skills and proper shot selection.

You can become a top player in all disciplines with dedication and feel, with natural ability, or with Systems....

The arguments can be fun and the arguments can be aggravating. Let's just keep it all in perspective ok????


Jaden

I more or less agree in general. But there are some things i can't buy
off on.

For reference - I have played for many years - tho I don't play much now,
and haven't for quite some time. Like many of us, I was not an instant
star. Early on I was a mediocre shot maker. As I progressed into a
passably good player, my shot making skills became relatively weak
for my level of ability at pool. Many a player I could beat, could "outshoot"
me by a wide margin.

Eventually I morphed into quite the shotmaker. Now, I'm no champion,
and I never was going to be. But I would rate myself as a pretty good
shotmaker. In fact, it is now the strongest part of my game.

None of my improvement had anything to do with an aiming system.

My point of contention is about estimating. IMHO - good shotmakers
don't estimate, they don't adjust, they don't compensate.
Hopefully, this is more tham just semantics.

Think about the old fashioned spot shot. Making a spot shot with say,
low outside english is an entirely different shot than center ball,
or high inside.

The point is: you should know exactly where and how
to hit the OB before you ever aim. If you don't, you nedd more
work, practice, information, etc. And BTW - if you do know, you
have no need for an aiming system.

Dale<certified aimer>

fabfastfredyy
04-02-2011, 04:27 AM
............................

336Robin
04-02-2011, 06:09 AM
I pitched up to about 20 years old, but loved to hit too much and moved to the outfield. As an adult I taught hitting and loved that, never to have anything again, to do with pitching. If you google PBS and search Joan Vickers, there are videos about a lot of sports including baseball. There is some neat stuff on putting, also.

Best,
Mike

Thanks Mike I will do that, incidentally when I was pitching I used to look dead at the batters chest. I had my gaze and arm calibrated to hit the glove, if I wanted to back him out of the box I looked at his left shoulder if he was right handed--- if I had a left hander I looked at the spot where the previous right hander was before him. I just did my windup and delivery the same as long as it felt the same well it was the same right down the middle.

336Robin :thumbup:

Robin Kelly

336Robin
04-02-2011, 06:46 AM
I more or less agree in general. But there are some things i can't buy
off on.

For reference - I have played for many years - tho I don't play much now,
and haven't for quite some time. Like many of us, I was not an instant
star. Early on I was a mediocre shot maker. As I progressed into a
passably good player, my shot making skills became relatively weak
for my level of ability at pool. Many a player I could beat, could "outshoot"
me by a wide margin.

Eventually I morphed into quite the shotmaker. Now, I'm no champion,
and I never was going to be. But I would rate myself as a pretty good
shotmaker. In fact, it is now the strongest part of my game.

None of my improvement had anything to do with an aiming system.

My point of contention is about estimating. IMHO - good shotmakers
don't estimate, they don't adjust, they don't compensate.
Hopefully, this is more tham just semantics.

Think about the old fashioned spot shot. Making a spot shot with say,
low outside english is an entirely different shot than center ball,
or high inside.

The point is: you should know exactly where and how
to hit the OB before you ever aim. If you don't, you nedd more
work, practice, information, etc. And BTW - if you do know, you
have no need for an aiming system.

Dale<certified aimer>

Dale,
You hit all around a subject here that few people ever arrive at. Many people never hit enough balls to attain what you are talking about. I agree with a good deal youve said because I know where youre coming from.

You say nothing you ever did came from an aiming system. Interesting but let me state something further about that. Im sure it took you awhile to develop your feel for what to do. Im all with you right there been there and done that. No Im not an aiming system kind of guy, really. What I am is an aiming method guy. Whats the difference? Cte is an aiming system you have a defined protocol you go through then you arrive a point where the shot is supposed to be able to go if you shoot center ball. I got that piece, I think it works pretty good or people wouldnt be so set on it. I have no problem believing them.
What I am is an aiming method guy. I have some defined things I ask the shooter to do that helps his perceptions and tunes them in so he reaches that point and is able to see where he is supposed to hit the shot to put it in the hole. Once he is able to do it with center ball he will quickly see when he lines up thick or thin on the shot what he needs to do with either English to correct the shot or if he actually has to adjust his position if he really needs Center Ball.
What I know I can do for the player is get them to that point minus several hundred thousand balls off the million it probably takes for you to get to that point.
Im offering something that you mention in your post. Im offering the real shot picture in a shorter amount of time and how do I know? Because I have paid real close attention to the transitions one goes through to get there and I understand exactly what will get you there and show you what to practice to get you there in the proper order then I get you a template once youre there so you never forget where it is youre at for the rest of your playing career. You may not play for a time here and there and get a bit rusty but once I get done with you, you will never forget what you learned and getting it back will be so much easier because I know exactly what youre talking about and that is what Im out to deliver. Im not an aiming system guy, Im a aiming method guy and I want to bring the player to that elusive state that you talk about Im not so sure you can get there using the aiming systems Ive seen. Not to the place you are talking about. Thats the place where you talk about the same shot with center ball being a different shot with different English's and youre exactly right. Totally different shot all together. It springs from the same mould you have to understand the one in order to understand the other. Good Post!

336Robin :thumbup:

Robin Kelly

http://274928807619529663.weebly.com/ booksite

duckie
04-02-2011, 07:23 AM
There is only one system that works in all pool games and that is trail and error. None other.

As example, I'm learning to sharpen knives. I've got the books, watched the DVD, got the good gear, but there is nothing that replaces experince. Of just doing it.

At first, even tho I read, watch and have good equipment, I sucked at it. It has taken doing and actually finding better ways to do things that what I read or watch. It all was from trail and error.

Trail and error is the only system that works.