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View Full Version : Was this shot intentional by SVB?


SkyscraperChris
05-24-2011, 12:46 PM
To me, it seems that he was playing this shot. Jay Helfert says he thinks Shane was playing safe behind the 10, and I value his opinion highly. However, Shane had to have been playing the 10 at least as 2 way shot. There was no penalty if he was. What do you think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnvMEgioNVs

donuteric
05-24-2011, 12:50 PM
Nope. I don't think he was playing the 10.

Eric.
05-24-2011, 12:58 PM
Looked like a 2 way shot to me.

If I had to guess, I would say he called the 10 in the corner, with the intention of leaving the 4 in the middle of the rail, or better yet, by the 8.


Eric

Snapshot9
05-24-2011, 12:59 PM
that 10 ball was call shot! And no, he wasn't playing the 10, but he did make a good kick on the 2 and the jump shot on the 3 though.

JMuck
05-24-2011, 01:17 PM
Looked like a two wayer to me.A lot of of good things could happen with the good speed he used.

donuteric
05-24-2011, 01:20 PM
Was the shot called? The original post somewhat suggested a call shot wasn't required. I'm quite convinced that the actual intention is to play CB behind the 10. But again, who the hell am I?!

Black-Balled
05-24-2011, 01:21 PM
Accident...

I doubt he wants 5 tries to replicate it.

RunoutJJ
05-24-2011, 01:30 PM
I didnt see or hear him call it. He tired to play a good safe which he did. Oh and sunk the ten ball in the process :cool:

And who cares about that shot anyways!!! The kick shot to the jump shot was so much more impressive. Shane is a beast who made THREE!!! world class shots to get to the safe that won him the game. :yes:

flash5153
05-24-2011, 01:41 PM
You could see him put his hand down in the corner pocket where the 10 went. As if he was lining it up,,,, I think he was trying to sneak the cue back there,,,but whats in his mind ,,,,we don't know.
He could have been thinking if I mis it right I will end up here!! Or maybe I just might make it!!

donuteric
05-24-2011, 01:50 PM
I didnt see or hear him call it. He tired to play a good safe which he did. Oh and sunk the ten ball in the process :cool:

And who cares about that shot anyways!!! The kick shot to the jump shot was so much more impressive. Shane is a beast who made THREE!!! world class shots to get to the safe that won him the game. :yes:

Yet another example of "the better you get, the luckier you get".

the420trooper
05-24-2011, 02:03 PM
That was a really cool sequence of shots. I think Shane may have realized that the 10 might possibly go, but I doubt that he was going all out to make it. His object ball placement on the 4 ball probably would have won him the game anyway, this way was just a little faster. :)

just kick'n
05-24-2011, 02:27 PM
I think he shot at the 10.IMO

Spooled
05-24-2011, 03:27 PM
I think he shot at the 10.IMO

Agreed. He was looking at it. Would of been ok if he missed too

TATE
05-24-2011, 03:51 PM
Realistically, the 10 was pretty far from the pocket to actually play that shot. From the speed he hit the ball, I think he was playing to come up inside the 10 for a hook and hit it a little fat. Some 10 ball, like the Seminole, is not call pocket.

PoolBum
05-24-2011, 03:51 PM
To me, it seems that he was playing this shot. Jay Helfert says he thinks Shane was playing safe behind the 10, and I value his opinion highly. However, Shane had to have been playing the 10 at least as 2 way shot. There was no penalty if he was. What do you think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnvMEgioNVs

It's not true that there would have been no penalty if he hit the top side of the 10 instead of hiding the cueball behind it. If he hits the top side and lets Francisco see the whole 4 ball Francisco might be able to pocket it or at the very least have a much easier safety than if he was stuck. Any time Francisco can see a whole ball he is very, very dangerous, and Shane knows this. Also, making that 10 ball like that is extremely difficult, even for a great player like Shane. For those reasons, I don't think he was trying to pocket the 10.

dave_k
05-24-2011, 05:54 PM
it appears to me that he tapped the pocket as a way of calling it.


either way it was a perfectly played two way shot

TX Poolnut
05-24-2011, 06:09 PM
This is a well known two-way shot.

Watch as Wiley and Sigel attempt the same type of shot as Shane, in the same rack. It's an old tactical move that comes up from time to time and should be practiced by everyone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3m7syfs33E&NR=1

kanecalgary
05-24-2011, 08:41 PM
I think he's playing a two way shot. All he has to do is try and scratch in that corner and the ten goes in.

PoolBum
05-24-2011, 10:03 PM
This is a well known two-way shot.

Watch as Wiley and Sigel attempt the same type of shot as Shane, in the same rack. It's an old tactical move that comes up from time to time and should be practiced by everyone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3m7syfs33E&NR=1

Except Sigel's 9-ball is much closer to the pocket and he's hiding the 6 ball on the same shot.

heit8
05-24-2011, 10:12 PM
I think he was playing the 10 because if he misses it is in a safe position, so basically he played the 2 way. IMO

DogsPlayingPool
05-24-2011, 10:29 PM
Well, he must have called the 10 ball because he raked all the balls immediately after the shot, and I doubt it was because he was conceding the game to Busty. If he didn't I'm sure Busty would have questioned it. 10 Ball isn't slop. Had he not called the 10 it would have backfired because Busty would have had the option to give the table back had he been hooked on the 4.

Also, it not only did it appear that SVB tapped the pocket, but then when he went up table to take a look at where he was going to contact the 4, he took a definite look back at the 10 ball, as though he was planning to go back after it.

He had to have called it.

PoolBum
05-24-2011, 11:57 PM
Well, he must have called the 10 ball because he raked all the balls immediately after the shot, and I doubt it was because he was conceding the game to Busty. If he didn't I'm sure Busty would have questioned it. 10 Ball isn't slop. Had he not called the 10 it would have backfired because Busty would have had the option to give the table back had he been hooked on the 4.

Also, it not only did it appear that SVB tapped the pocket, but then when he went up table to take a look at where he was going to contact the 4, he took a definite look back at the 10 ball, as though he was planning to go back after it.

He had to have called it.

If we know that they were playing call shot then of course he must have called the 10. Even so, calling it and playing it intentionally are not the same thing.

Black-Balled
05-25-2011, 06:57 AM
Well, he must have called the 10 ball because he raked all the balls immediately after the shot, and I doubt it was because he was conceding the game to Busty. If he didn't I'm sure Busty would have questioned it. 10 Ball isn't slop. Had he not called the 10 it would have backfired because Busty would have had the option to give the table back had he been hooked on the 4.

Also, it not only did it appear that SVB tapped the pocket, but then when he went up table to take a look at where he was going to contact the 4, he took a definite look back at the 10 ball, as though he was planning to go back after it.
He had to have called it.
I don't believe we are sure of the rules they are playing, do we?
ANd I'd say the look to the 10 was to see if CB could scratch and to get a sense of speed needed to put CB at other end.

Accident!:wink:

DogsPlayingPool
05-25-2011, 07:24 AM
If we know that they were playing call shot then of course he must have called the 10. Even so, calling it and playing it intentionally are not the same thing.

I don't believe we are sure of the rules they are playing, do we?
ANd I'd say the look to the 10 was to see if CB could scratch and to get a sense of speed needed to put CB at other end.

Accident!:wink:

You guys have a point. I've just not yet seen two pros matching up like this play slop 10 ball. Someone put out the bat signal for Helfert. He could shed some light on it.

Black-Balled
05-25-2011, 07:32 AM
You guys have a point. I've just not yet seen two pros matching up like this play slop 10 ball. Someone put out the bat signal for Helfert. He could shed some light on it.

I think the move to play call shot/ option to return is new-ish.

When 10b started replacing 9b, I don't recall it being played like today.

TorranceChris
05-25-2011, 07:59 AM
If we know that they were playing call shot then of course he must have called the 10. Even so, calling it and playing it intentionally are not the same thing.

Good point! I just came back from the 10-ball tournament in Vegas where they would call the pocket if there was a remote chance that they might "slop" in the 10 ball even if it was 2 foot away. It was an interesting exercise of seeing what shot they envisioned might happen. So in this case if they were playing call shot, I then believe he played for the safety but called it just in case.

Woof Biscuit
05-25-2011, 08:07 AM
Two way shot for sure. The shots leading up to it were more impressive, IMO.

Black-Balled
05-25-2011, 08:08 AM
Good point! I just came back from the 10-ball tournament in Vegas where they would call the pocket if there was a remote chance that they might "slop" in the 10 ball even if it was 2 foot away. It was an interesting exercise of seeing what shot they envisioned might happen. So in this case if they were playing call shot, I then believe he played for the safety but called it just in case.


If calling the 10b has no negative consequesnnce, then that is not using the call-shot rule appropriately.

Call-shot means your shot accomplishes what you call: If you are kicking at a ball (other than the 10) and call the 10 also, failure to make the 10 would result in giving your opponent the opportunity to return the resultin shot.

TorranceChris
05-25-2011, 08:24 AM
If calling the 10b has no negative consequesnnce, then that is not using the call-shot rule appropriately.

Call-shot means your shot accomplishes what you call: If you are kicking at a ball (other than the 10) and call the 10 also, failure to make the 10 would result in giving your opponent the opportunity to return the resultin shot.

That's a good point too. I don't recall from the trip any opponent ever returning a shot unless a ball was made other than the called shot or an obvious shot or of course for a push. I would be curious to see what the rules in Vegas were regarding this.

DogsPlayingPool
05-25-2011, 09:04 AM
I think the move to play call shot/ option to return is new-ish.

When 10b started replacing 9b, I don't recall it being played like today.

I think you're right. 10 Ball started being played as a "rack solving" solution to 9 Ball, iirc.

RunoutJJ
05-25-2011, 10:39 AM
I don't believe we are sure of the rules they are playing, do we?
ANd I'd say the look to the 10 was to see if CB could scratch and to get a sense of speed needed to put CB at other end.

Accident!:wink:


Exactly!!! I really believe that a lot of people think pros like SVB Earl and Reyes are these ball pocketing monsters that plan everything!! They do everything on purpose all the time and not play shots that require a little luck. I could believe Reyes may try this type of shot but like mentioned earlier. The plan was to hide the cue ball and use the ten as a protective ball against a scratch.

Things could have been even worse if SVB hung it and didn't hide the cueball BUT.... he got lucky and made the ten and won the game...

Jude Rosenstock
05-25-2011, 02:00 PM
I think it's kind of amazing that we've all watched the same video and yet we cannot quickly agree on what actually happened. There are several sets of rules for 10-ball floating around now and, as stated, some of these rule sets will make this early 10-ball a very undesireable shot.

If the incoming player MUST shoot when it's his turn, Shane can call the 10-ball and play safe at the same time.

If the incoming player has the option to pass on the shot unless a safety is called, Shane would have called safe since missing the 10-ball after calling it would have been a sell-out.


Honestly, I haven't followed the rise of 10-ball enough to know which rules are more widely accepted but I still find it amusing and troubling that there's so much confusion.

DogsPlayingPool
05-25-2011, 03:26 PM
I think it's kind of amazing that we've all watched the same video and yet we cannot quickly agree on what actually happened. There are several sets of rules for 10-ball floating around now and, as stated, some of these rule sets will make this early 10-ball a very undesireable shot.

If the incoming player MUST shoot when it's his turn, Shane can call the 10-ball and play safe at the same time.

If the incoming player has the option to pass on the shot unless a safety is called, Shane would have called safe since missing the 10-ball after calling it would have been a sell-out.


Honestly, I haven't followed the rise of 10-ball enough to know which rules are more widely accepted but I still find it amusing and troubling that there's so much confusion.

The way the shot went down, unless SVB had flat out called a safety or had called the 10 ball Busty would have had the option to give it back in either of the two main ways 10 Ball is being played today, that is, either by WPA rules or by the rules played in some East Coast events, like the Predator/Tony Robles tournaments or the way the SBE was played the year before this last one (I believe the most recent SBE was played by WPA rules).

SkyscraperChris
05-25-2011, 03:31 PM
As far as I know, from watching the match, there was no call requirement. I strongly believe that Shane played a 2 way shot. He KNEW that if he didn't get safe (which, even if he didn't get behind the 10, wouldn't have left Francisco an offensive option), he would either bump the 10 or slop it in. 2 way shots come up very often, and a man with Shane's caliber knew this slop was a possibility. If he was required to call the 10, he would have made it more clear to Busty.

Skyscraper

alstl
05-25-2011, 03:54 PM
Yes he played it that way.

RunoutJJ
05-25-2011, 04:25 PM
Sent the link to Shane's FB so hopefully he'll chime in on here and give the real story...

Im still gonna say he went for the safe and not intended on making the 10 ball.

richiebalto
05-25-2011, 06:59 PM
This is a well known two-way shot.

Watch as Wiley and Sigel attempt the same type of shot as Shane, in the same rack. It's an old tactical move that comes up from time to time and should be practiced by everyone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3m7syfs33E&NR=1

Yes sigel played that 9ball,but svb tried to hide the qball 2rails behind the 10ball.

mista335
05-25-2011, 08:55 PM
To me, it seems that he was playing this shot. Jay Helfert says he thinks Shane was playing safe behind the 10, and I value his opinion highly. However, Shane had to have been playing the 10 at least as 2 way shot. There was no penalty if he was. What do you think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnvMEgioNVs

Look at the video at 2:18. His left hand moves towards the corner pocket and moves back again quickly which could have been to indicate the pocket.

Though its dark, it looks like Bustamante is sitting at the top right hand corner of the screen. He would be in perfect position to see SVB's casual calling of the pocket.

In any case if he didn't call it you can bet Bustamante would have screamed and yelled as we've all seen occasionally when he believes a decision has gone against him. Remember Darryl Peach game.

DogsPlayingPool
05-25-2011, 09:05 PM
Look at the video at 2:18. His left hand moves towards the corner pocket and moves back again quickly which could have been to indicate the pocket.

Though its dark, it looks like Bustamante is sitting at the top right hand corner of the screen. He would be in perfect position to see SVB's casual calling of the pocket.

In any case if he didn't call it you can bet Bustamante would have screamed and yelled as we've all seen occasionally when he believes a decision has gone against him. Remember Darryl Peach game.

But as has been discussed, there seems to be a question about whether they were playing call shot 10Ball.

I thought the same way you did but something else has occurred to me. Neither of the commentators questioned if it was a legal pot. Certainly Jay Helfert knows the rules of 10 Ball, so if they were playing call shot at the time, it would have come up in the booth. Instead the comment was, "Wow, looks like he was playing that shot." Obviously, if it they WERE playing call shot, then he must have called it.

SkyscraperChris
05-25-2011, 09:09 PM
But as has been discussed, there seems to be a question about whether they were playing call shot 10Ball.

I thought the same way you did but something else has occurred to me. Neither of the commentators questioned if it was a legal pot. Certainly Jay Helfert knows the rules of 10 Ball, so if they were playing call shot at the time, it would have come up in the booth. Instead the comment was, "Wow, looks like he was playing that shot." Obviously, if it they WERE playing call shot, then he must have called it.

I cut the video off right before Jay started questioning the validity of it. He says he believes Shane was playing safe and got lucky. Only Shane knows. Hopefully we will get his insight here. Where you at Shane?!

DogsPlayingPool
05-25-2011, 09:29 PM
I cut the video off right before Jay started questioning the validity of it. He says he believes Shane was playing safe and got lucky. Only Shane knows. Hopefully we will get his insight here. Where you at Shane?!

That indicates to me they were not playing call shot. If Jay did say that, it suggests it was a good shot whether he called it or not. So it does sound like they weren't playing call shot 10 Ball in that match.

So if they weren't playing call shot, then he probably didn't call it since he wouldn't have had to. Of course, it still leaves the question about whether he was trying to make the 10 on a two way shot or was playing safe and got lucky.

mista335
05-25-2011, 11:49 PM
But as has been discussed, there seems to be a question about whether they were playing call shot 10Ball.

I thought the same way you did but something else has occurred to me. Neither of the commentators questioned if it was a legal pot. Certainly Jay Helfert knows the rules of 10 Ball, so if they were playing call shot at the time, it would have come up in the booth. Instead the comment was, "Wow, looks like he was playing that shot." Obviously, if it they WERE playing call shot, then he must have called it.

Since when is 10-ball NOT call shot?

DogsPlayingPool
05-26-2011, 12:10 AM
Since when is 10-ball NOT call shot?

Well, that's what we've been discussing. It seems that some 10 Ball was played TE 9 Ball style essentially just to avoid the racking issues with 9 Ball. I'm not sure of the history and I wasn't aware of slop 10 Ball either at this level. But one thing is for sure, something is weird in that match. Shane won that game and the announcers didn't speculate that he MUST have called the 10 Ball, just whether or not they thought he was trying for it. If, as Chris mentioned, Jay said that he thought Shane was trying to play safe and got lucky, that doesn't suggest the game was being played call shot.

I put out the bat signal for Jay. Hopefully he will stop in and shed some light on it.

Deadon
05-26-2011, 12:14 AM
This was at DCC a couple years back. No one that I can remember was calling 10 ball. Of course, I might of missed it, I was 10' from the table during the match. Shane made great shots and with a little luck and kept up with FB, until the rolls changed. Shane is playing better now, this would be a great TAR match.

maidenfreak
05-26-2011, 01:28 AM
He was playing safe behind the 10. That's what I would have done.