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Kurt
05-25-2011, 08:47 AM
I've now broken two Predator 314-2 shafts in a row. Both times it happened when I was putting extreme draw on the ball. It's because when I'm stroking the ball, I end up pushing the shaft down on the table. I'm pretty accurate with the draw shots but obviously my stroke needs work, since I've never seen this happen before with anybody else.

Either way, it seems like I can't use the Predator 314-2 shaft anymore..it just can't handle the flex I'm putting on the shaft.

So...I need a new shaft that can handle the pressures I put on it. Preferably, I'd like it to have really low deflection and be a quality/proven shaft. Any suggestions on a shaft I can use that I won't break?

hang-the-9
05-25-2011, 08:58 AM
If you can break 2 shafts with your stroke, you may want to try baseball. I have never seen anyone hit a ball with draw that will cause a shaft to bend enough to snap. I've seen shafts bend pretty far during the break.

My suggestion would be to check how you hit the ball more than a new shaft :D

Are you pushing down on the cue when you hit like you would when you're digging with a shovel? That may explain the issue here. Maybe spend a bit of time with an instructor to see what is going on.

As far as "sturdiness" goes, the OB is made up of interlocking peices instead of pie shaped ones, that may hold up better.

Drew
05-25-2011, 09:10 AM
Where did it break? The flexing shaft concentrates stress on the ferrule tenon. You have a serious stroke issue if you're doing this on draw shots. You can either keep buying new shafts or you can fix your stroke. Start using an open bridge on all your shots, including draw shots.

donuteric
05-25-2011, 09:14 AM
I'd agree with the previous two posters.

I broke my Z2 ferrule once when I over struck a draw shot, missed, and scooped the CB with the edge of the ferrule. That took out small part of the tip, and the ferrule was bent slightly. It was fixed by simply replacing a tip.

If this is a recurring theme, I'd certainly work on that draw stroke. Sometimes it's not about the speed, it's where the CB you're supposed to hit at.

Kurt
05-25-2011, 09:16 AM
If you can break 2 shafts with your stroke, you may want to try baseball. I have never seen anyone hit a ball with draw that will cause a shaft to bend enough to snap. I've seen shafts bend pretty far during the break.

My suggestion would be to check how you hit the ball more than a new shaft :D

Are you pushing down on the cue when you hit like you would when you're digging with a shovel? That may explain the issue here. Maybe spend a bit of time with an instructor to see what is going on.

As far as "sturdiness" goes, the OB is made up of interlocking peices instead of pie shaped ones, that may hold up better.

Both 314-2 shafts broke when I was drawing the cue ball. I tend to push down pretty hard on the table with the shaft immediately after the stroke. I could tell the shaft was weakening, because I've been hearing little cracking sounds for weeks now when I would do draw shots..then finally the shaft broke..not completely in half, but still broke. I never break with my stick either. AND, interestingly enough...I have a Tim Scruggs, and I had played with the original Scruggs shaft for 5 straight years with no issues whatsoever...then within 10 months of buying my first 314-2, it breaks..and then within 3 months of getting a replacement, the second one breaks.

I realize something is seriously wrong with how I draw the ball (even though I tend to make it most of the time), but it seems to me that the 314-2 isn't as sturdy as the original Scruggs shaft that came with the stick. I guess I could give the OB a try and see if it can withstand my draws :P

Kurt
05-25-2011, 09:17 AM
Where did it break? The flexing shaft concentrates stress on the ferrule tenon. You have a serious stroke issue if you're doing this on draw shots. You can either keep buying new shafts or you can fix your stroke. Start using an open bridge on all your shots, including draw shots.

That's not a bad idea about using an open bridge on my draw shots...I can do it, but I find it's a lot easier to use a closed bridge when it comes to a long draw shot.

The shaft is breaking very close to the center....nowhere near the ferrule.

brandoncook26
05-25-2011, 09:21 AM
My suggestion....stop breaking shafts (couldn't help it).

Seriously, unless you have the worst luck ever, it is not a shaft problem. You need work on your stroke. Honestly, you are probably hindering your ability. If you put that much force on your draw, you are using to much power when stroking. A quality stroke should look effortless. You do not need to force it, you can smooth draw and get MORE out of your stroke.

I have found that when I try to draw, I put much more power into it and get about half the results. The best draw shots I've ever had felt like I did nothing and I actually overdrew my position.

-Brandon

plshrk22
05-25-2011, 09:21 AM
Are you keeping your cue as level as possible? Or are you jacking the butt up to get the tip lower when you are cueing up for the draw shot?

Black-Balled
05-25-2011, 09:23 AM
-Doctor, It hurts when I do this.
-Stop doing that. Or go back to the regular shafts.

Sounds pretty straightforward to me.

Kurt
05-25-2011, 09:25 AM
Are you keeping your cue as level as possible? Or are you jacking the butt up to get the tip lower when you are cueing up for the draw shot?

I'm keeping the cue level when I stroke it, but have a tendency to push downwards near the end of the stroke.

It's weird though..I've seen Mike Sigel's break shot, and it looks like he's about to snap his shaft in half every time he breaks..but it doesn't ever seem to break. I can't imagine I'm putting more force on the shaft with a draw shot than he is when he breaks.

Black-Balled
05-25-2011, 09:26 AM
I'm keeping the cue level when I stroke it, but have a tendency to push downwards near the end of the stroke.

It's weird though..I've seen Mike Sigel's break shot, and it looks like he's about to snap his shaft in half every time he breaks..but it doesn't ever seem to break. I can't imagine I'm putting more force on the shaft with a draw shot than he is when he breaks.

You should not use Mike Sigel as a barometer for your experience.

Kurt
05-25-2011, 09:31 AM
You should not use Mike Sigel as a barometer for your experience.

Stop being an asshat, seriously. Your short quips aren't helpful, or appreciated.

I'm in no way comparing myself to Mike Sigel..I'm simply stating that it's weird that I'm putting more pressure on my shafts than Mike Sigel seems to be putting on his break shots.

It has to be a combination of my lousy stroke and the 314-2 shaft though..because like I said, I've had the same stroke for 10 years and I played at least 5 years with the Scruggs shaft without any breaking or cracking of any sort.

rayjay
05-25-2011, 09:32 AM
Stop using laminated plywood shafts. period.
:p

plshrk22
05-25-2011, 09:35 AM
Well he is probabaly using a break cue also. I think you may be standing up unknowingly because you are trying to do a powerful draw shot. This is why when people break, their tip is on the table. Their stroking arm is moving up with their body while the bridge/shaft is staying stationary. You need to work on staying down on your shot.

brandoncook26
05-25-2011, 09:36 AM
Stop being an asshat, seriously. Your short quips aren't helpful, or appreciated.

I'm in no way comparing myself to Mike Sigel..I'm simply stating that it's weird that I'm putting more pressure on my shafts than Mike Sigel seems to be putting on his break shots.

It has to be a combination of my lousy stroke and the 314-2 shaft though..because like I said, I've had the same stroke for 10 years and I played at least 5 years with the Scruggs shaft without any breaking or cracking of any sort.

He called you an asshat, lol. Whether or not it's substantiated, it made me laugh my ass off.

<----- Probably also an asshat :)

Kurt
05-25-2011, 09:41 AM
Stop using laminated plywood shafts. period.
:p

Can you be more specific with this? I know nothing about wood types. Is plywood and/or lamination known for not being as quality or sturdy as other wood types? Is the 314, 314-2, and Z2 all plywood? What shafts aren't laminated plywood, and which ones would you recommend for me?

Kurt
05-25-2011, 09:42 AM
Well he is probabaly using a break cue also. I think you may be standing up unknowingly because you are trying to do a powerful draw shot. This is why when people break, their tip is on the table. Their stroking arm is moving up with their body while the bridge/shaft is staying stationary. You need to work on staying down on your shot.

Ah..excellent point! I knew I always had an issue with this..but I'll keep this more in mind especially on draw shots!

plshrk22
05-25-2011, 09:47 AM
Most of the LD Shafts like Predator, OB1, etc are laminated. There are different variations of laminated shafts though, some are flat laminated, pie laminated like the predator. I used a predator for 10+ years and loved it. It was the first edition of the predator shafts. Never once did I hear a crack or was in fear of breaking it. I sold it a year ago because I got to shoot with some quality all wood shafts and have never looked back. BUT I am a strong believer in "Its the Indian, Not the Arrow". :)

donuteric
05-25-2011, 09:53 AM
Kurt, I think members here are just expressing the truth. Some might have written in a way that provokes unnecessary misunderstandings among members on this forum, but they simply stated the truth. If you're convinced that these laminated shafts don't fit into your routine, then I'd recommend to get a Mezz shaft. They are high quality LD shafts.

The truth is, however, in within your stroking ability. Replace the shaft, if needed, but pay particular attention to how it happened.

Drew
05-25-2011, 09:57 AM
That's not a bad idea about using an open bridge on my draw shots...I can do it, but I find it's a lot easier to use a closed bridge when it comes to a long draw shot.

The shaft is breaking very close to the center....nowhere near the ferrule.

It's easier with a closed bridge because you're forcefully holding the shaft low to table. But you shouldn't be adjusting to a bad stroke. Don't raise your elbow or stand up mid-stroke. Do you notice yourself miscueing a lot when drawing with an open bridge? Or shooting a "draw" shot which doesn't draw?

When you can draw the ball just as well with an open bridge, then you'll have that little problem solved.

FWIW: The Tim Scruggs shaft you were using is much stronger than the 314 because it's a single solid piece of wood. Scruggs isn't known for using sh1t wood in his cues either.

Kurt
05-25-2011, 09:57 AM
Kurt, I think members here are just expressing the truth. Some might have written in a way that provokes unnecessary misunderstandings among members on this forum, but they simply stated the truth. If you're convinced that these laminated shafts don't fit into your routine, then I'd recommend to get a Mezz shaft. They are high quality LD shafts.

The truth is, however, in within your stroking ability. Replace the shaft, if needed, but pay particular attention to how it happened.

Mezz shaft...cool, thanks for the recommendation. Fixing my stroke is going to take a while, and I need a shaft in the meantime...so as long as I can find a low deflection shaft that won't break on me, then I can concentrate on fixing the stroke.

edit- I checked the mezz website..there are 4 shafts...

wd700
hybrid pro II
alpha hybrid
deep impact pro

Do you have any experience with these shafts..what are the primary differences? It's hard to determine that from the description on their website..

12squared
05-25-2011, 10:01 AM
To answer your question about low deflection shafts that may be more stable with your particular stroke, I would 1st talk to Royce at OB about their OB classic line of shafts and explain your problem. He is a great guy and stands behind his products.

Secondly, there have been a few threads about ferruless shafts that are standard maple shafts without ferrules that have some LD results, that might be your best bet since you believe the breakage is because of the lamination in the shaft and the drilled top part. You would have to do a search or maybe someone can point you in the right direction. I think I have read there were 2 or 3 folks making these kinds of shafts.

Good luck.

Dave

Kurt
05-25-2011, 10:01 AM
It's easier with a closed bridge because you're forcefully holding the shaft low to table. But you shouldn't be adjusting to a bad stroke. Don't raise your elbow or stand up mid-stroke. Do you notice yourself miscueing a lot when drawing with an open bridge? Or shooting a "draw" shot which doesn't draw?

When you can draw the ball just as well with an open bridge, then you'll have that little problem solved.

FWIW: The Tim Scruggs shaft you were using is much stronger than the 314 because it's a single solid piece of wood. Scruggs isn't known for using sh1t wood in his cues either.

No- I just see my accuracy decrease when I use an open bridge on long draw shots. However, I did use to have a problem when I drew balls with a closed bridge, that I would end up jumping the cue ball over the object ball inadvertenly.

Makes sense what you said about the Scruggs shaft...is there such a thing as a low deflection shaft that is made with a single solid piece of wood?

Kurt
05-25-2011, 10:05 AM
To answer your question about low deflection shafts that may be more stable with your particular stroke, I would 1st talk to Royce at OB about their OB classic line of shafts and explain your problem. He is a great guy and stands behind his products.

Secondly, there have been a few threads about ferruless shafts that are standard maple shafts without ferrules that have some LD results, that might be your best bet since you believe the breakage is because of the lamination in the shaft and the drilled top part. You would have to do a search or maybe someone can point you in the right direction. I think I have read there were 2 or 3 folks making these kinds of shafts.

Good luck.

Dave

Ferruless shaft? Never seen/heard of it. I'm not sure, other than my crappy stroke, of what's causing the breaks...but it does seem as if I need a solid single piece shaft to avoid breaks in the future.

When I started using a 314-2 shaft instead of the Scruggs shaft, it felt as if I started getting much better english. It seems I can draw the ball a lot further with the 314-2 compared to the Scruggs..which is why I swapped.

I know stroke has the most to do with how far you can draw a ball...but I thought tips usually made the most difference...but I'm thinking now the shaft plays a big part of that too....so if you can point me towards a shaft that can give me the same draw as a 314-2, that's what I really need.

donuteric
05-25-2011, 10:05 AM
Mezz shaft...cool, thanks for the recommendation. Fixing my stroke is going to take a while, and I need a shaft in the meantime...so as long as I can find a low deflection shaft that won't break on me, then I can concentrate on fixing the stroke.

edit- I checked the mezz website..there are 4 shafts...

wd700
hybrid pro II
alpha hybrid
deep impact pro

Do you have any experience with these shafts..what are the primary differences? It's hard to determine that from the description on their website..

Deep impact pro is used for breaking. I've tried all; wd700 and HPII are my favorites, but I play with wd700 most of the times. There are tons of reviews, compare and contrast posts here on AZ about these different Mezz shafts.

Find these threads in the following link. You may filter out those in the Wanted/For Sales section.

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&safe=off&source=hp&q=mezz+shaft+review+site:azbilliards.com&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=fe12a09bb5068841

flash5153
05-25-2011, 10:12 AM
I have never heard of anyone breaking a shaft during a shot. This is a first.:confused:
I have heard of,,,,,and seen some ,,,break them after a shot!!! lol:)

I like to see it on video please. OK thats not gona happen,,but what about that stroke you have,,can I/we see that on video??

donuteric
05-25-2011, 10:16 AM
Ferruless shaft? Never seen/heard of it. I'm not sure, other than my crappy stroke, of what's causing the breaks...but it does seem as if I need a solid single piece shaft to avoid breaks in the future.

When I started using a 314-2 shaft instead of the Scruggs shaft, it felt as if I started getting much better english. It seems I can draw the ball a lot further with the 314-2 compared to the Scruggs..which is why I swapped.

I know stroke has the most to do with how far you can draw a ball...but I thought tips usually made the most difference...but I'm thinking now the shaft plays a big part of that too....so if you can point me towards a shaft that can give me the same draw as a 314-2, that's what I really need.

Take the time to go through some articles by Dr. Dave.

http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/index.html

Start from articles 29 to 26.

Kurt
05-25-2011, 10:27 AM
Deep impact pro is used for breaking. I've tried all; wd700 and HPII are my favorites, but I play with wd700 most of the times. There are tons of reviews, compare and contrast posts here on AZ about these different Mezz shafts.

Find these threads in the following link. You may filter out those in the Wanted/For Sales section.

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&safe=off&source=hp&q=mezz+shaft+review+site:azbilliards.com&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=fe12a09bb5068841

I saw someone say the HPII is the best shaft for a 314-2 player, so that might be the shaft for me.

What's your opinion on the HPII vs. the OB-1? I don't have the luxury of trying both out...

And, to divert the conversation a little bit..I might just end up buying a new stick altogether...the Scruggs butt is a bit warped and I wouldn't mind trying out a new stick...I don't care what it looks like, just how it feels when shooting. I've heard excellent things about how the P3 feels, but at 800 bucks..it's too expensive..any suggestions? Thanks for all the help!

Kurt
05-25-2011, 10:28 AM
I have never heard of anyone breaking a shaft during a shot. This is a first.:confused:
I have heard of,,,,,and seen some ,,,break them after a shot!!! lol:)

I like to see it on video please. OK thats not gona happen,,but what about that stroke you have,,can I/we see that on video??

Err, maybe I'll have someone tape my draw shot and I can link it. But everybody tells me the same thing..they haven't ever seen someone break a shaft on a stroke...and it just makes me feel like crap :P

12squared
05-25-2011, 10:29 AM
Ferruless shaft? Never seen/heard of it. I'm not sure, other than my crappy stroke, of what's causing the breaks...but it does seem as if I need a solid single piece shaft to avoid breaks in the future.

....so if you can point me towards a shaft that can give me the same draw as a 314-2, that's what I really need.

Kurt,

After a quick search I found this review of a ferrule-less shaft made by Cash Cues http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=156882, but I believe there are others making them. I would go to ask a cuemaker section and ask about them there.

Dave

Drew
05-25-2011, 10:31 AM
Ferruless shaft? Never seen/heard of it. I'm not sure, other than my crappy stroke, of what's causing the breaks...but it does seem as if I need a solid single piece shaft to avoid breaks in the future.
I've only broken one shaft. It split the length the of the shaft during a break shot. I have broken many tenons (all on break shots). Personally, I hate LD shafts anyway.

When I started using a 314-2 shaft instead of the Scruggs shaft, it felt as if I started getting much better english. It seems I can draw the ball a lot further with the 314-2 compared to the Scruggs..which is why I swapped.
This is totally in your head. Any difference in spin between shafts is negligible. Tip and stroke have more to do with this than anything. A harder or softer ferrule will change the feel of the shot. LD shafts are supposed to help accuracy with off-center shots (side-spin).

I know stroke has the most to do with how far you can draw a ball...but I thought tips usually made the most difference...but I'm thinking now the shaft plays a big part of that too....so if you can point me towards a shaft that can give me the same draw as a 314-2, that's what I really need.

I say you use the Scruggs shaft. You can experiment with different tips to calibrate spin. Solid wood LD shafts don't exist (AFAIK). LD shafts work by manipulating the grain in the wood.

Remember that the tip is in contact with the CB for a fraction of a second. In this time, you apply all the spin. The coefficient of friction of the tip and the angle which they make contact is all that can possibly affect the motion of the ball.

donuteric
05-25-2011, 10:34 AM
I saw someone say the HPII is the best shaft for a 314-2 player, so that might be the shaft for me.

What's your opinion on the HPII vs. the OB-1? I don't have the luxury of trying both out...

And, to divert the conversation a little bit..I might just end up buying a new stick altogether...the Scruggs butt is a bit warped and I wouldn't mind trying out a new stick...I don't care what it looks like, just how it feels when shooting. I've heard excellent things about how the P3 feels, but at 800 bucks..it's too expensive..any suggestions? Thanks for all the help!

I'd disagree. I believe WD700 plays more comparable to 314. I don't have a lot of experience with OB to comment. I also don't like recommending cues to people. If I had to, go with Mezz because I am, like many are, mezz'ed up. :thumbup:

Kurt
05-25-2011, 10:35 AM
Take the time to go through some articles by Dr. Dave.

http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/index.html

Start from articles 29 to 26.

Excellent resource! Already reading it. Thanks.

qwerty123
05-25-2011, 10:44 AM
if youre going to choose a ld mezz shaft the wd700 is more like the 314 than the hybrid

grindz
05-25-2011, 10:47 AM
Wow..... a lot of really good advice here in response to your querry. Some of the best seem to be the ones you respond to glibbly or get angry at. Seriously.....and sincerely, before you ask a question make sure you are ready to hear some answers.... and some of the best answers come in the form of things you don't want to hear. You don't want to hear what you don't want to change, and quickly dismiss it. Open your mind to all the knowledge here in this unbelievable forum... you seem extremely close minded in your search.

Watch some tapes of Nick Varner, or a lot of the Philipino players.... a soft stroke goes a long way. Learn new routes to roll the ball, play better position. Just a few observations from a hack. Hope you can use them.
Good luck.

td

BlackMamba
05-25-2011, 10:49 AM
In my experience, if you are breaking shafts because you are pushing down on them too much, that means theres a lot of body movement and one could assume that maybe you are pushing a lot of power into the cue ball for these draw shots... A lot of power isn't usually necessary for a draw shot on a bar box, and if you are playing on like a 9 foot table there are better ways to get around the table than knocking the feet off of a 9 foot draw shot... Maybe try experimenting with some different methods of cue ball manipulation... High english with variations of right and left mixed in only require that you know how to do the shot... It may look a little more complicated to let the ball roll 3 rails for shape instead of hitting that 9 foot draw shot, but often times players will get better results and their equipment will last much longer :) I personally saw a huge improvement to my game with I let my stroke out and starting using tangent lines and ball paths to make shape instead of trying to hit monster draw shots...

mm4pool
05-25-2011, 10:59 AM
In my experience, if you are breaking shafts because you are pushing down on them too much, that means theres a lot of body movement and one could assume that maybe you are pushing a lot of power into the cue ball for these draw shots... A lot of power isn't usually necessary for a draw shot on a bar box, and if you are playing on like a 9 foot table there are better ways to get around the table than knocking the feet off of a 9 foot draw shot... Maybe try experimenting with some different methods of cue ball manipulation... High english with variations of right and left mixed in only require that you know how to do the shot... It may look a little more complicated to let the ball roll 3 rails for shape instead of hitting that 9 foot draw shot, but often times players will get better results and their equipment will last much longer :) I personally saw a huge improvement to my game with I let my stroke out and starting using tangent lines and ball paths to make shape instead of trying to hit monster draw shots...

Tap Tap Tap, this has really helped me improve my lousy game!

Mike

Zivan1967
05-25-2011, 11:05 AM
I say practice drawing the cue ball with an open bridge. You can't force the cue into the table if you use an open bridge. So, if you get your stroke to the point where drawing the cue ball with an open bridge is easy (using a nice fluid stroke rather than over powering it), then you're probably stroking good enough that you don't need to dig the shaft into the table after you draw with a closed bridge.

TATE
05-25-2011, 11:36 AM
Kurt,

The OB Classic is a solid LD shaft, no hollow spot, and it's very strong. Not only that, you can let out your power strokes with confidence. For a power player, this is a good solid shaft and in my experience, plays with very little adjustment to a 314-2.

I broke the end off a 314 myself. They're weak at the end, probably because they're hollow. Also, the ferrule is weak. At the time, I was playing with a rigidly pinned elbow and a closed bridge, which causes the tip to dive on follow through. The players who let their elbow drop on follow through won't have this issue.

Anyway, that's what I suggest.

Chris

Kurt
05-25-2011, 11:50 AM
Wow..... a lot of really good advice here in response to your querry. Some of the best seem to be the ones you respond to glibbly or get angry at. Seriously.....and sincerely, before you ask a question make sure you are ready to hear some answers.... and some of the best answers come in the form of things you don't want to hear. You don't want to hear what you don't want to change, and quickly dismiss it. Open your mind to all the knowledge here in this unbelievable forum... you seem extremely close minded in your search.

Watch some tapes of Nick Varner, or a lot of the Philipino players.... a soft stroke goes a long way. Learn new routes to roll the ball, play better position. Just a few observations from a hack. Hope you can use them.
Good luck.

td

I'd really suggest re-reading this entire thread, because you're incorrect. I never once got "glibbly" or "angry" at anybody in this thread except Black-Balled, who clearly was belittling with the one liners from the beginning. I appreciate all the great feedback I've gotten so far.

Kurt
05-25-2011, 11:55 AM
Kurt,

The OB Classic is a solid LD shaft, no hollow spot, and it's very strong. Not only that, you can let out your power strokes with confidence. For a power player, this is a good solid shaft and in my experience, plays with very little adjustment to a 314-2.

I broke the end off a 314 myself. They're weak at the end, probably because they're hollow. Also, the ferrule is weak. At the time, I was playing with a rigidly pinned elbow and a closed bridge, which causes the tip to dive on follow through. The players who let their elbow drop on follow through won't have this issue.

Anyway, that's what I suggest.

Chris

Awesome- thanks. I'm going to look into that shaft. On a side note, how come a lot of smaller diameter shafts get the "pro" name added onto them, like the classic pro? This seems to indicate that it's a better shaft for pro players, which I don't think is really the case..?

donuteric
05-25-2011, 12:00 PM
Kurt, I hope I've been helpful. I also agree with what grindz said, as well as what Black-Balled noted. I believe most of us are delivering the same message, just different wordings.

If you read grindz's post carefully, the last part might actually be the solution to the problem. I've witnessed, and I meant way too many times, forcefully draw the CB back to the other side of table, is utterly unnecessary. Sometimes, simply following the CB firm with inside english and coming out 3-rail is the right shot. For whatever reason it is, many young and/or immature pool players just simply refuse the learn the characteristic (i.e. deflection) of the cue he/she is playing.

Kurt
05-25-2011, 12:06 PM
Kurt, I hope I've been helpful. I also agree with what grindz said, as well as what Black-Balled noted. I believe most of us are delivering the same message, just different wordings.

If you read grindz's post carefully, the last part might actually be the solution to the problem. I've witnessed, and I meant way too many times, forcefully draw the CB back to the other side of table, is utterly unnecessary. Sometimes, simply following the CB firm with inside english and coming out 3-rail is the right shot. For whatever reason it is, many young and/or immature pool players just simply refuse the learn the characteristic (i.e. deflection) of the cue he/she is playing.

Yah, I know the shot you're talking about..however it seemed to me at the time that draw was the only option. It was a straight shot with no angle whatsoever..so it seemed to me that I wouldn't be able to put top right on it without scratching..or at least not at my skill level.

And, for the record, I wasn't disagreeing with what black-balled said, but just in the mocking way he said it, followed up by a smart quip about comparing myself to Mike Sigel, which was taken completely out of the context of the conversation.

the420trooper
05-25-2011, 12:09 PM
I'd really suggest re-reading this entire thread, because you're incorrect. I never once got "glibbly" or "angry" at anybody in this thread except Black-Balled, who clearly was belittling with the one liners from the beginning. I appreciate all the great feedback I've gotten so far.

Black-Balled is mean to everybody. I suspect that if he keeps up this behavior, one day he's going to piss off the wrong person...and he's going to wake up to find a red dot on his user cp. :)

TheThaiger
05-25-2011, 12:29 PM
Firstly, change your tip. I've just put a kamui black medium on my 314-2, and it allows table length draws with ease. Secondly, McDermott I series are pretty much indestructible, I'd say. Maybe not to everyone's tastes, but they're solid, with a carbon fibre (?) core.

DaveK
05-25-2011, 12:41 PM
Black-Balled is mean to everybody. I suspect that if he keeps up this behavior, one day he's going to piss off the wrong person...and he's going to wake up to find a red dot on his user cp. :)

That will just ruin his day :rolleyes:

:thumbup: Go Walter Go :thumbup:

Dave

Black-Balled
05-25-2011, 12:54 PM
I'd really suggest re-reading this entire thread, because you're incorrect. I never once got "glibbly" or "angry" at anybody in this thread except Black-Balled, who clearly was belittling with the one liners from the beginning. I appreciate all the great feedback I've gotten so far.


Please do not mistake my brevity for lack of worth...

There is a serious problem with your form and it should be addressed.

In addition to breaking fewer shafts, the necessary change will likely benefit your game in other positive ways.

Black-Balled
05-25-2011, 01:10 PM
I am very smart and know many words.
Chary of my wrath!!
http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af285/TobiAGoodBoy83/funny-pictures-cat-is-amazed.jpg

K Knight
05-25-2011, 01:18 PM
Play with your TS and ditch the aftermarket shafts. The problem lies in your stroke. Your money is much better spent on lessons with a professional instructor.

If you are bending your shaft that much it is having no impact on your shot. If you slow-mo some video you'll find that all of that bending starts after the cueball is a foot down the table. If you were putting that much force through the cue ball you would be destroying the cloth. The bend happens after the shot in your follow through when you jump up/ elevate your shoulder.

Don't find "better" equipment that will allow you to further exaggerate bad habits. you are playing with a frickin TS, the problem ain't the cue.

flame away...

Black-Balled
05-25-2011, 01:41 PM
Play with your TS and ditch the aftermarket shafts. The problem lies in your stroke. Your money is much better spent on lessons with a professional instructor.

If you are bending your shaft that much it is having no impact on your shot. If you slow-mo some video you'll find that all of that bending starts after the cueball is a foot down the table. If you were putting that much force through the cue ball you would be destroying the cloth. The bend happens after the shot in your follow through when you jump up/ elevate your shoulder.

Don't find "better" equipment that will allow you to further exaggerate bad habits. you are playing with a frickin TS, the problem ain't the cue.

flame away...

Ain't no fire here, folks.

TATE
05-25-2011, 01:54 PM
Awesome- thanks. I'm going to look into that shaft. On a side note, how come a lot of smaller diameter shafts get the "pro" name added onto them, like the classic pro? This seems to indicate that it's a better shaft for pro players, which I don't think is really the case..?

This is kind of a funny story.

Predator had their Z of course - the first one like this, 11.75 mm small tip, strong Euro style modified taper.

Then Royce followed suit with the OB2 and later named the solid version "OB Classic Pro" - I think it was early last year - 11.75 mm -

Then Tiger came up with the Tiger Pro X shaft just a few months later - 11.75 mm. I always figured Tiger knew OB had the Pro name on their shaft and they were trying to associate the smaller tip with the word "Pro". So a few months ago, I was discussing it with Tony from Tiger - and he had this puzzled look on his face. I realized he had no idea OB was also calling their 11.75mm shaft Pro - before he did - and he was visibly embarassed!

Stuff like this happens.

Personally I think the smaller tip does take a little more skill to master, so the word "Pro" is somewhat appropriate. A lot more of the good players have gone to the smaller tip and strong taper. Before the "Z" a lot used to have cues modified like this on their own (it reduces squirt on a conventional shaft too) so that's probably where the "Pro" comes from.


Chris

rayjay
05-25-2011, 01:56 PM
The best shafts are solid, old-growth, dense, hardrock maple. Many say that the higher the growth ring count the better, but anything over 20 gr/i is great. There are several cuemakers that use really high grade maple to make a low deflection version of the above described shafts, like Black Boar, Cash Cues (old McDaniel shop), Joe Callaluca, just to name a few. You can pm Joe Callaluca and Tommy (hangemhigh) of Cash Cues here on AZB for more information. All are made a little differently, but all achieve low end mass just like predator, etc. to give low deflection. I think they play great. Shafts are all about the wood, to me, and nothing laminated will ever feel the same. JMO. Good luck and have fun!
:p

ArizonaPete
05-25-2011, 02:03 PM
You may want to consider the McDermott I-2 shaft. The center core is unidirectional carbon fiber with two additional carbon fiber wraps. This makes for a very strong shaf. I recommended the I-2 because the tip diameter is 12.75mm. I play with the McDermott I-3 because I prefer the 11.75mm tip diameter. I also have a I-1 that I use as my break cue. It's really built like a tank. If you break the I-1 then you must be Superman. They have a outstanding warranty and maintenance program for the I seriies shafts. I'd really look into it on their website. I haven't seen any difference in performance between the OB-2 and the I-3. I found the ferrule distracting on the OB-2 and went to the I-3 because of the small white ferrule. Good luck in your quest and wish you luck also in modifying your stroke.

flash5153
05-25-2011, 03:26 PM
After reading the whole thread. I have a question!

When you broke these shafts was you tipping a few beers and doing many shots?? Because when I do that,,I bend and bend and bend my shaft. There's no stopping it!!!
I never broke it but I think it was sore in the morning!!:grin:
It's called "whisky stick"!! :sorry:

OneIron
05-25-2011, 03:40 PM
I've now broken two Predator 314-2 shafts in a row. Both times it happened when I was putting extreme draw on the ball. It's because when I'm stroking the ball, I end up pushing the shaft down on the table. I'm pretty accurate with the draw shots but obviously my stroke needs work, since I've never seen this happen before with anybody else.

Either way, it seems like I can't use the Predator 314-2 shaft anymore..it just can't handle the flex I'm putting on the shaft.

So...I need a new shaft that can handle the pressures I put on it. Preferably, I'd like it to have really low deflection and be a quality/proven shaft. Any suggestions on a shaft I can use that I won't break?

Gotta be rough on the cloth also. I'm not sure there's any shaft that will stand up to that over time. I'm thinking concentrate on a a level stroke and stick with the Predator...

The Renfro
05-25-2011, 03:54 PM
Breaking shafts on draw shots has to come from either raising up aggressively thru the stroke, having an acute impact angle due to elevating the butt of the cue, or having the grip hand way forward and levering the cue off of the closed bridge.

I would 1) Get a camera and see what it looks like you are doing. If you cannot tell on your own, post a link here and someone will likely help. 2) If you can't get a camera then try the open bridge idea in practice and see if that doesn't help expose what is generating the problem.

The low deflection shafts were designed to handle impact forces and minor sheer forces exerted on them. With your TS shaft, while you never broke it I can almost guarantee that you have destroyed the spine if you were exposing it to the same stroke dynamics.

Predator, OB, and Tiger all make great products and they have done their research. People can spout old growth maple all they want but the test results are in and Laminates are where its at for performance and CONSISTENCY. Usually when someone starts talking about old growth maple I can hear the cash register go off inside their head. Tightness of grain and quality has nothing todo with old vs new growth. It has everything todo with the tree and the processes used to age, dry and turn the wood.

Dudley
05-25-2011, 04:02 PM
Maybe you need to start dropping your elbow so your tip won't dive into the cloth so hard??? :cool:

Dud

Scaramouche
05-25-2011, 05:52 PM
Forget the shaft, you need this cue :D

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=3000464&postcount=1

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=3000464#post3000464

Drew
05-25-2011, 08:24 PM
Maybe you need to start dropping your elbow so your tip won't dive into the cloth so hard??? :cool:

Dud

When all else fails, you can always fix one bad habit with another.

Roadking
05-25-2011, 08:37 PM
Ive been following this thread and I hate to say this but I find it hard to believe you broke two shafts by putting draw on your stroke! I dont care how bad your stroke is,it's not gonna happen.

Hungarian
05-25-2011, 08:44 PM
I've now broken two Predator 314-2 shafts in a row. Both times it happened when I was putting extreme draw on the ball. It's because when I'm stroking the ball, I end up pushing the shaft down on the table. I'm pretty accurate with the draw shots but obviously my stroke needs work, since I've never seen this happen before with anybody else.

Either way, it seems like I can't use the Predator 314-2 shaft anymore..it just can't handle the flex I'm putting on the shaft.

So...I need a new shaft that can handle the pressures I put on it. Preferably, I'd like it to have really low deflection and be a quality/proven shaft. Any suggestions on a shaft I can use that I won't break?

Kurt,

If you would agree I will pay for another shaft if you will video record the stroke you are describing that breaks only Predator 314-2 shafts and post it here.

Please advise,
Nut

Drew
05-25-2011, 08:54 PM
Ive been following this thread and I hate to say this but I find it hard to believe you broke two shafts by putting draw on your stroke! I dont care how bad your stroke is,it's not gonna happen.

Sometimes in my follow-through, I throw my cue across the room like a spear...only on draw shots though.

Lexicologist71
05-25-2011, 09:53 PM
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Sigel used a Meucci, which is about the most flexible cue in the Universe.

You may also try choking up on your grip to shorten your follow through so the tip makes less contact with the table. As someone said previously, make sure you stay down.

Lexicologist71
05-25-2011, 10:17 PM
Black-Balled gave you some of the best advice. It isn't the cue. It's you.

If you drop your elbow on your draw shot, you may save your shaft but you'll probably ruin your draw.

Sometimes draw is the only option. A 9 foot draw shot should be in every serious players repertoire. It doesn't take a super soft Kamui to perform one. I used to practice it with a Chandivert Rocky. Now THAT is one hard chunk of leather.

softshot
05-25-2011, 10:18 PM
I had a 314 ferrule snap off on a draw shot miscue.. but never heard of the middle of the shaft snapping...

#1 sounds like you have poor technique.. you should work on that.. however

#2 the reason only the 314's snap could be the glue lines.. each time you flex the shaft at an extreme like that probably weakens the glue between each section... over time you have 6 or 8 thin strips of wood instead of one piece of maple like a real shaft... effectively de-laminating your shaft and making it easier to break.

thats my best guess

Baxter
05-25-2011, 11:15 PM
Where did it break? The flexing shaft concentrates stress on the ferrule tenon. You have a serious stroke issue if you're doing this on draw shots. You can either keep buying new shafts or you can fix your stroke. Start using an open bridge on all your shots, including draw shots.

That is a great tip. An open bridge doesn't let you get away with some of the stuff a closed bridge would. Take that as good or bad; in this case it is definitely good.

Rep to you sir.

Also, work on your stroke. I've never not once seen anybody with a good stroke break a shaft, let alone two in a row.

TheThaiger
05-26-2011, 03:18 AM
Predator fat shaft's another option...

strutter
05-26-2011, 04:35 AM
I suggest staying down in the shooting position until the cue ball makes contact with the object ball. Something else that helped me with draw shots,is to grip you cue with a loose grip. It seems that it would be almost impossible to put the downward pressure on the shaft with a loose grip.

Hungarian
05-26-2011, 09:46 AM
This thread is pathetic. There is now way this guy is breaking shafts on a draw stroke. He is just bad mouthing....

Roadking
05-26-2011, 10:44 AM
This thread is pathetic. There is now way this guy is breaking shafts on a draw stroke. He is just bad mouthing....

Finally!!!
After 15 months on AZ and someone agrees with me.
Thanks Mr. Hungarian Nut

breakin8
05-26-2011, 11:12 AM
How far are you drawing the rock. 25 feet you better work on your patterns.

cuesmith
05-26-2011, 11:29 AM
I've now broken two Predator 314-2 shafts in a row. Both times it happened when I was putting extreme draw on the ball. It's because when I'm stroking the ball, I end up pushing the shaft down on the table. I'm pretty accurate with the draw shots but obviously my stroke needs work, since I've never seen this happen before with anybody else.

Either way, it seems like I can't use the Predator 314-2 shaft anymore..it just can't handle the flex I'm putting on the shaft.

So...I need a new shaft that can handle the pressures I put on it. Preferably, I'd like it to have really low deflection and be a quality/proven shaft. Any suggestions on a shaft I can use that I won't break?

I've always been concerned about Predator shafts because of the adhesives they use to glue the pieces together. The wood glue that they use is fine for furniture construction and most projects but people tend to burnish their shafts which results in much higher temperatures than this type of glue is designed withstand. For this reason whenever I get a Predator shaft in for tip work I explain to the customer that I can't do the same job of cleaning, burnishing, sealing and polishing that I do on a standard solid maple shaft. I've always been afraid that if I did they would end up look like one of those exploding blunderbusses on a Porky Pig cartoon! If I were you I'd make a point of not letting a Predator shaft get heated up too much for this reason. When the Predator shafts first came out I had a discussion with Allen McCarthy who I believe was instrumental in the shafts development and asked it would be possible to build them with an epoxy with a heat rating that would be sufficient to prevent this type of situation. He told me "It would be cost prohibitive"! Considering the amount of advertising they were doing, this seemed a little short sighted to me. I'm actually quite surprised that you don't hear of more of these types of problems. maybe the glue works better than it was designed to do!

Hungarian
05-26-2011, 01:17 PM
Finally!!!
After 15 months on AZ and someone agrees with me.
Thanks Mr. Hungarian Nut

You are very welcome Roadking. This guy is a clown...

The Renfro
05-26-2011, 02:47 PM
I've always been concerned about Predator shafts because of the adhesives they use to glue the pieces together. The wood glue that they use is fine for furniture construction and most projects but people tend to burnish their shafts which results in much higher temperatures than this type of glue is designed withstand. For this reason whenever I get a Predator shaft in for tip work I explain to the customer that I can't do the same job of cleaning, burnishing, sealing and polishing that I do on a standard solid maple shaft. I've always been afraid that if I did they would end up look like one of those exploding blunderbusses on a Porky Pig cartoon! If I were you I'd make a point of not letting a Predator shaft get heated up too much for this reason. When the Predator shafts first came out I had a discussion with Allen McCarthy who I believe was instrumental in the shafts development and asked it would be possible to build them with an epoxy with a heat rating that would be sufficient to prevent this type of situation. He told me "It would be cost prohibitive"! Considering the amount of advertising they were doing, this seemed a little short sighted to me. I'm actually quite surprised that you don't hear of more of these types of problems. maybe the glue works better than it was designed to do!

I have had several cue-makers and repair specialists tell me exactly the same thing. I started making sure that I specify "no shaft cleaning or burnishing" when I take a predator in to be re-tipped. I actually have had 1 come back from the shop with a warp from being heated up on the lathe. Well at least I think it was from that but I am not a total expert for sure.

Sherm, Do you know if the OB and Straight laminates use the same glues as predator? I haven't seen but 1 straight lam warp from what we assume was overheating on a lathe.

Kurt
05-26-2011, 03:04 PM
After reading the whole thread. I have a question!

When you broke these shafts was you tipping a few beers and doing many shots?? Because when I do that,,I bend and bend and bend my shaft. There's no stopping it!!!
I never broke it but I think it was sore in the morning!!:grin:
It's called "whisky stick"!! :sorry:

I was, unfortunately, very sober on both occasions.

Kurt
05-26-2011, 03:12 PM
Ive been following this thread and I hate to say this but I find it hard to believe you broke two shafts by putting draw on your stroke! I dont care how bad your stroke is,it's not gonna happen.

I have witnesses on both occasions. First time was in Kendall/Miami, at Sharpshooters at Christmas time, playing some 9 ball sets..had at least 5 people watching when it happened..and it didn't snap completely in two parts..but it was substantial and was only held on by a small piece of wood.

In the second case, it happened at Zingale's (formerly Snookers) in Tallahassee, Tuesday night, during my APA match..and had about 4 witnesses there.

I've also never hit my cue on anything out of anger (it's a TS), so it's purely in my crappy power draws...and it makes sense..because I've been playing pool at least a decade and never had any formal training.

In addition, I heard very light cracking previously in both shafts on some of my strokes, so it was a process of degradation over time, and not straight from brand new to broken instantly.

Kurt
05-26-2011, 03:17 PM
Kurt,

If you would agree I will pay for another shaft if you will video record the stroke you are describing that breaks only Predator 314-2 shafts and post it here.

Please advise,
Nut

If it's the shaft of my choice from either Mezz or OB, you have yourself a deal.

LAlouie
05-26-2011, 03:22 PM
Stop looking at your Mike Sigel poster.

Kurt
05-26-2011, 03:22 PM
This thread is pathetic. There is now way this guy is breaking shafts on a draw stroke. He is just bad mouthing....

Predator offices in Jacksonville saw the first shaft I broke..just ask the guy who does customer service there- George was his name? I know it's not proof I did it on a draw stroke, but that's where the witnesses from Sharpshooters come in..one was Jose if I remember correctly (I know it's a generic name, but he's a house player and everybody knows him.) Another guy that saw it is Native American, plays really good one pocket, and drives a really nice expensive car...I forgot his nick name though.

Kurt
05-26-2011, 03:35 PM
I've always been concerned about Predator shafts because of the adhesives they use to glue the pieces together. The wood glue that they use is fine for furniture construction and most projects but people tend to burnish their shafts which results in much higher temperatures than this type of glue is designed withstand. For this reason whenever I get a Predator shaft in for tip work I explain to the customer that I can't do the same job of cleaning, burnishing, sealing and polishing that I do on a standard solid maple shaft. I've always been afraid that if I did they would end up look like one of those exploding blunderbusses on a Porky Pig cartoon! If I were you I'd make a point of not letting a Predator shaft get heated up too much for this reason. When the Predator shafts first came out I had a discussion with Allen McCarthy who I believe was instrumental in the shafts development and asked it would be possible to build them with an epoxy with a heat rating that would be sufficient to prevent this type of situation. He told me "It would be cost prohibitive"! Considering the amount of advertising they were doing, this seemed a little short sighted to me. I'm actually quite surprised that you don't hear of more of these types of problems. maybe the glue works better than it was designed to do!

I do use Q-Wiz to clean the shaft...and I think one side has a burnisher. Maybe it's weakening the shafts?

JAMSGOLF
05-26-2011, 03:35 PM
Predator offices in Jacksonville saw the first shaft I broke..just ask the guy who does customer service there- George was his name? I know it's not proof I did it on a draw stroke, but that's where the witnesses from Sharpshooters come in..one was Jose if I remember correctly (I know it's a generic name, but he's a house player and everybody knows him.) The other guy that saw it is Native American, plays really good one pocket, and drives a really nice expensive car...I forgot his nick name though.

I'm not sure why you should feel you have to justify something you know to be true to some nitwits.

There's no doubt in most people's minds (as well as mine) that you're doing this on a "normal" draw shot...but let's be clear...your's isn't a "normal" draw shot. It's normal for you - but not for most others. You're stressing the shafts out over time. The laminate in the LD shafts you're using isn't holding up to the stress you put on them time after time after time. Bend a paper clip in half - it won't break - bend it back and forth numerous times and it finally snaps in two...STRESS!

Very simple solution that has been stated numerous times...change your stroke or get used to breaking LD shafts...

Kurt
05-26-2011, 03:39 PM
I'm not sure why you should feel you have to justify something you know to be true to some nitwits.

There's no doubt in most people's minds (as well as mine) that you're doing this on a "normal" draw shot...but let's be clear...your's isn't a "normal" draw shot. It's normal for you - but not for most others. You're stressing the shafts out over time. The laminate in the LD shafts you're using isn't holding up to the stress you put on them time after time after time. Bend a paper clip in half - it won't break - bend it back and forth numerous times and it finally snaps in two...STRESS!

Very simple solution that has been stated numerous times...change your stroke or get used to breaking LD shafts...

I'm already working on trying to adjust my stroke...I don't know why everybody feels they have to keep suggesting this, as if somewhere I said I refused to adjust my stroke. I want to practice my stroke, but I don't want to practice it on a shaft that I can possibly break while practicing, but I want to do it with a high quality LD shaft. And I'd prefer not to practice with a thick break cue :P

Kurt
05-26-2011, 03:45 PM
You are very welcome Roadking. This guy is a clown...

This break wasn't nearly as bad as the first time...the first time it almost broke completely in two.

http://imgur.com/a/WaIom

cuesmith
05-26-2011, 03:53 PM
I have had several cue-makers and repair specialists tell me exactly the same thing. I started making sure that I specify "no shaft cleaning or burnishing" when I take a predator in to be re-tipped. I actually have had 1 come back from the shop with a warp from being heated up on the lathe. Well at least I think it was from that but I am not a total expert for sure.

Sherm, Do you know if the OB and Straight laminates use the same glues as predator? I haven't seen but 1 straight lam warp from what we assume was overheating on a lathe.

Chris,
I'm not really sure about the adhesives used by the other LD shaft manufacturers but I will say that Royce of OB is definitely quality conscience and has probably done his homework on the quality and reliability of his adhesives. As far as the flat lam shafts, I've only used about a dozen of them in my career which I purchased the blanks from Schmelke. I had at least 2 of those warp from whatever reasons not related to heat. These 2 warped while in storage before they were even completed. I had one more that I know of warp after it was sold and used for at least a year. I've always thought that the flat lam shafts were questionable due to the same effect that a dielectric strip in a thermostat works, where one part of the lamination could expand and contract at a different rate from the one next to it, causing movement. Personally I think the design of the OB shafts and the much rarer Ed Reyes laminated shafts (ER120 I think they were called) have the best chance of stability when it comes to laminates but I still prefer a solid maple shaft for myself. Been playing too long with them to re-learn how to shoot with a LD shaft.

Hungarian
05-26-2011, 04:02 PM
I'm still skeptical. Never will believe you can break a known good shaft on a draw stroke unless I were to see it. Not your fault, but I am not easily convinced.

Sorry again and good luck with pursuit of free replacement.

Cheers,
Nut

Kurt
05-26-2011, 04:04 PM
I'm still skeptical. Never will believe you can break a known good shaft on a draw stroke unless I were to see it. Not your fault, but I am not easily convinced.

Sorry again and good luck with pursuit of free replacement.

Cheers,
Nut

That's not a bad idea. Anybody from OB or Mezz want to step up and sponsor me with a shaft/stick? That way you can tell people that you gave your shaft to one of the worst draw strokers in pool, and even he couldn't break it. Best PR in the industry!

Wolven
05-26-2011, 04:09 PM
Kurt,

I would stop using q-wiz it does take some wood off.
The stroke thing well, sorry, but whatever everyone else is saying.

OB-1 and especially OB-classic are way tougher than 314 and they don't warp.
OB-classic has more deflection than OB-1 and 314^2 but is one tough shaft I break with mine. :)

brandoncook26
05-26-2011, 04:11 PM
I played with a Mezz cue I received today. I only have about an hour into it, but so far it feels much more like a regular shaft than any other LD I have tried. It is very solidly constructed. I tried a predator for a while and didn't like it. I also tried an OB-1 and it felt like it hit too soft. The tiger ultra ld was pretty decent, but this Mezz WD 700 is pretty solid.

Kurt
05-26-2011, 04:21 PM
Kurt,

I would stop using q-wiz it does take some wood off.
The stroke thing well, sorry, but whatever everyone else is saying.

OB-1 and especially OB-classic are way tougher than 314 and they don't warp.
OB-classic has more deflection than OB-1 and 314^2 but is one tough shaft I break with mine. :)

What's the best thing to carry around with me to the pool halls that will keep my cue from getting sticky? Q-Wiz works pretty well for that...but if I can replace it I will.

just kick'n
05-26-2011, 04:32 PM
Judging by the break pattern in the shaft, I would say you are trapping it on the slate, and lifting the butt of the cue. That is my hypothesis, until I see otherwise, with my own eyes. My humble opinion.

Kurt
05-26-2011, 04:34 PM
Still determining which shaft I want next. Immonen plays with the WD700 doesn't he? I thought I saw that somewhere.

Hungarian
05-26-2011, 04:39 PM
Judging by the break pattern in the shaft, I would say you are trapping it on the slate, and lifting the butt of the cue. That is my hypothesis, until I see otherwise, with my own eyes. My humble opinion.

Yeah, but on a draw stroke.......please

Hungarian
05-26-2011, 04:45 PM
If it's the shaft of my choice from either Mezz or OB, you have yourself a deal.

No Sir, you must travel to a known Pool Hall at our agreement. My Representative or I will meet you there.

Tell the truth, you had it leaning against the wall at the Ice House and some APA Welder backed into it.

mm4pool
05-26-2011, 06:24 PM
I do use Q-Wiz to clean the shaft...and I think one side has a burnisher. Maybe it's weakening the shafts?

i have been a woodworker my entire adult life and have used different adhesives extensively. in my opinion, i seriously doubt that you are generating enough heat by hand burnishing to do any harm to the shaft. the only way i see you building enough heat to do harm is spin the shaft on a lathe at high speed while burnishing. i use a q-wiz on my ob1 with no ill effects, when i use the abrasive side it is with a very light stroke, just enough to clean, not enough to sand. good luck.

Mike

Roadking
05-26-2011, 06:47 PM
I'm not sure why you should feel you have to justify something you know to be true to some nitwits.

There's no doubt in most people's minds (as well as mine) that you're doing this on a "normal" draw shot...but let's be clear...your's isn't a "normal" draw shot. It's normal for you - but not for most others. You're stressing the shafts out over time. The laminate in the LD shafts you're using isn't holding up to the stress you put on them time after time after time. Bend a paper clip in half - it won't break - bend it back and forth numerous times and it finally snaps in two...STRESS!

Very simple solution that has been stated numerous times...change your stroke or get used to breaking LD shafts...
I'm sorry sir but your the nitwit if you believe this post!

Wolven
05-26-2011, 06:59 PM
i use a q-wiz on my ob1 with no ill effects, when i use the abrasive side it is with a very light stroke, just enough to clean, not enough to sand. good luck.

Mike

No matter how gentle you are there is always the danger of taking some wood with it.
I have abused OB shafts for a long time and they just stay straight so a little q-wiz should not do harm.
However, Predator shaft is another story they do warp and taking a little wood off is one way to do it.

My favorite product is Slipstic conditioner and cleaner. Towel does the trick too.

Roadking
05-26-2011, 07:10 PM
I have a 314-2 that mic's at 12mm, it's as straight as the 1st day I bought it. And it's not coming unglued or falling apart. And I broke with it the first 6 months I had it.
Also I'd like to know what predator had to say to the OP about his shaft?

rackem
05-26-2011, 08:13 PM
You are not breaking the shafts on your draw stroke..
You are breaking it on your follow through.
You are not suppose to bend the cue in half on the table after you hit the ball.
Don't blame it on the shaft. Blame it on your broken stroke.

Hungarian
05-26-2011, 08:21 PM
I'm not sure why you should feel you have to justify something you know to be true to some nitwits.

There's no doubt in most people's minds (as well as mine) that you're doing this on a "normal" draw shot...but let's be clear...your's isn't a "normal" draw shot. It's normal for you - but not for most others. You're stressing the shafts out over time. The laminate in the LD shafts you're using isn't holding up to the stress you put on them time after time after time. Bend a paper clip in half - it won't break - bend it back and forth numerous times and it finally snaps in two...STRESS!

Very simple solution that has been stated numerous times...change your stroke or get used to breaking LD shafts...



Hey SC-5 , watup fool

8up
05-26-2011, 09:16 PM
When all else fails, you can always fix one bad habit with another.

Is that anything like buying bigger speakers for my car because my muffler has a hole rusted in it and the noise from it was making it hard to hear the radio? :wink:

terminal_288
05-27-2011, 02:38 AM
So I can't believe I went and read throught this entire thread. Glad I did though, in my "expert" opinion I've seen a crack or 2 as shown in the pictures... lets just say it wasn't from putting "to much draw on the cue".

Next as a big fan of "Draw" (if its a choice of "follow" or "draw' I more often than not use "draw") never had a cue break as a result but from the sounds of it you are trying to hit the cue ball way way WAY to low. I would say that the lowest you can effectively hit the cue ball to achive draw is 1/4 down from the center. Anything lower any your asking for something bad / weird to happen

just my 2.2 cents

for the record I shoot with or have shot with Z2, 314-2, poison venom shaft, a standard maple shaft, and a crap maple shaft

mm4pool
05-27-2011, 06:47 AM
No matter how gentle you are there is always the danger of taking some wood with it.
I have abused OB shafts for a long time and they just stay straight so a little q-wiz should not do harm.
However, Predator shaft is another story they do warp and taking a little wood off is one way to do it.

My favorite product is Slipstic conditioner and cleaner. Towel does the trick too.

sorry, i mis spoke, i use a magic erase sponge for the majority of cleaning. i do use a q-wiz at times which i feel if misused can cause problems.

Mike

Black-Balled
05-27-2011, 07:03 AM
Still determining which shaft I want next. Immonen plays with the WD700 doesn't he? I thought I saw that somewhere.

You need to get the cheapest shafts available, until you get rid of the post-shot-show. You should probably see if there is a price break for 2.

Seriously, stop doing the alleged bending and it will help you in many ways, including shaft-life.

I.d also like to see a video of the shots that are causing the breaks. Grab a house cue and a camera...post it, please.

K Knight
05-27-2011, 02:48 PM
You need to get the cheapest shafts available, until you get rid of the post-shot-show. You should probably see if there is a price break for 2.

Seriously, stop doing the alleged bending and it will help you in many ways, including shaft-life.

I.d also like to see a video of the shots that are causing the breaks. Grab a house cue and a camera...post it, please.

He won't be able to do it with a house cue. The straight taper won't allow him to bend like he likes. This isn't a question of getting better, if it was he'd take everyone's advice.

My guess is he thinks the bend looks cool and wants equipment that will allow him to continue doing it.

This thread needs to die... I am ignoring it from here on out.

Kurt
05-27-2011, 03:11 PM
He won't be able to do it with a house cue. The straight taper won't allow him to bend like he likes. This isn't a question of getting better, if it was he'd take everyone's advice.

My guess is he thinks the bend looks cool and wants equipment that will allow him to continue doing it.

This thread needs to die... I am ignoring it from here on out.

Did you even read this entire thread? How many times must I say that I agree with everybody and that I've already started analyzing and working on my stroke...sheesh.