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billy's boy
05-27-2011, 09:23 PM
I recently played in a hadicapped 8 ball tournament at a local pool hall. Its a new tournament and so it does not have alot of players that play in it yet. So the owner has played in it the last couple of weeks. I think that thats ok but the thing is he shoots pretty good and he ranks himself probably lower than he should. Well last week he won the tournament and some of the players were pretty mad. I was just wondering what yall think. Should the owner play in his own tournament?

gunzby
05-27-2011, 09:28 PM
If the owner pays to play I don't see why he shouldn't play in the tournament. Being ranked too low seems to always come into play whenever the other person loses.

JB Cases
05-27-2011, 09:29 PM
As someone who owned a pool room and held weekly handicapped events I always felt like I should rank myself at the highest level because then no one could complain if I did well. Also it was a personal challenge to myself.

I think that owners of rooms should play in and enjoy the tournaments they host. Don't forget that they are players too and probably don't get to enjoy the game as much as their customers do.

But they should avoid any taint of impropriety and take the worst of it in their own handicapped events.

lorider
05-27-2011, 09:38 PM
I recently played in a hadicapped 8 ball tournament at a local pool hall. Its a new tournament and so it does not have alot of players that play in it yet. So the owner has played in it the last couple of weeks. I think that thats ok but the thing is he shoots pretty good and he ranks himself probably lower than he should. Well last week he won the tournament and some of the players were pretty mad. I was just wondering what yall think. Should the owner play in his own tournament?

not unless he handicaps himself correctly. i wouldnt judge by 1 or 2 weeks but if he finishes in the money most weeks i would say something.

i see no problem with it in a non handicapped tourney though.

gunzby
05-27-2011, 09:43 PM
The handicapped tournaments I play in adjust your handicap up if you win automatically and this owner should be doing the same.

mikepage
05-27-2011, 09:47 PM
As someone who owned a pool room and held weekly handicapped events I always felt like I should rank myself at the highest level because then no one could complain if I did well. Also it was a personal challenge to myself.

I think that owners of rooms should play in and enjoy the tournaments they host. Don't forget that they are players too and probably don't get to enjoy the game as much as their customers do.

But they should avoid any taint of impropriety and take the worst of it in their own handicapped events.

This makes sense.

I play in my own handicapped tournaments. But our ratings/handicaps are cut & dry done by the computer. So people know there's no subjectivity.

Paul Dayton
05-27-2011, 09:59 PM
As the room owner. you should always take the short end of the stick. If you occasionally do well, more power to you. You are having the tournaments for the players benefit.

master_cueist
05-27-2011, 11:46 PM
its been my experience that if your playing at an actual pool hall and not a po dunk bar, MOST poolhall owners are quite the shooters and everybody that is going to come play these probably knows this from leagues or other tournaments so most of the time they wouldnt be able to get away with that. in this case where you say many of the players were pretty mad then he probably tried to get away with it and they werent happy and they should tell him that if hes not going to be fair about rankings then they wont play. this is why any and all tournament should go off of some kind of world wide recognized league handicap system whether its apa, bca, vnea, etc. If the players bring it up to him and he has gotten pretty good turn outs and is making money from drinks/food during the tournaments hes not going to want to lose that...and im not sure who said it above me but i agree with them that if they rank theirselves higher than maybe they should and give themselves a challenge it will only make them a better player. you can not grow from indifference, only adversity. its just like...do basketball players get better from shooting the SAME shot every time, do body builders get bigger by doing the SAME thing every time? you have to constantly challenge yourself to grow.

edited note...the very first place i ever started playing was in windsor colorado and they had a weekly bar box 8 ball tournament and the owner played every single week and it took him 14 years to win his own tournament but he always showed up to play and show his appreciation for good turn outs...i believe every owner who actually plays should be like this.

maha
05-28-2011, 12:36 AM
sounds like he is a good player and a bad business person. and should be told both.

TX Poolnut
05-28-2011, 04:52 AM
As someone who owned a pool room and held weekly handicapped events I always felt like I should rank myself at the highest level because then no one could complain if I did well. Also it was a personal challenge to myself.

I think that owners of rooms should play in and enjoy the tournaments they host. Don't forget that they are players too and probably don't get to enjoy the game as much as their customers do.

But they should avoid any taint of impropriety and take the worst of it in their own handicapped events.

ding ding. we have a winner. :)

Mitchxout
05-28-2011, 09:27 AM
He won the first tournament? LOL! He's an idiot.

donuteric
05-28-2011, 09:29 AM
I recently played in a hadicapped 8 ball tournament at a local pool hall. Its a new tournament and so it does not have alot of players that play in it yet. So the owner has played in it the last couple of weeks. I think that thats ok but the thing is he shoots pretty good and he ranks himself probably lower than he should. Well last week he won the tournament and some of the players were pretty mad. I was just wondering what yall think. Should the owner play in his own tournament?

This suggests the owner has played in his own tournament multiple times, he won just last week, and other players complained.

I played in many handicapped tournaments, almost on a weekly basis, and each time I hear someone complains something about someone being underrated. Many times the problems ain't on the rating system, inconsistency normally causes these complaints.

Nostroke
05-28-2011, 10:00 AM
If he didnt roll the money over, id say he is way way out of line. He aint too bright in any case.

CocoboloCowboy
05-28-2011, 10:05 AM
Should the owner play in his own tournament?

Before the northern Lounge in Arizona CLOSED it was no unique to find one of the owner playing in their own Tourny?

Right or Wrong I can not say?

TX Poolnut
05-28-2011, 10:19 AM
I wouldn't be too concerned about it. He's probably shooting himself in the foot by winning. If he wins again i the near future, he might lose a few customers.

bfdlad
05-28-2011, 10:25 AM
I think he should play in his own tourney. The handicap is always going to be an issue though. If a AZ rated 6 player goes through and wins a tourney people are going to say he or she should be rated a 7 or 8. The handicap is there to even the playing field so the6 should have a legit chance to win.

Now where a problem comes in and I have had this happen to me as I am sure many others have also, I played a 5 ranked player who ran 3 racks on me. Someone who is a 5 should not be able to run a single rack but hey sometimes the sun shines on everyone but not three in a row. So now if I complain, it looks like i am a bad loser. No win situation for the bar owner.

bfdlad
05-28-2011, 10:27 AM
I wouldn't be too concerned about it. He's probably shooting himself in the foot by winning. If he wins again i the near future, he might lose a few customers.
Hey TX, so you are saying he should not play in the tourney or he should dump it if it looks like he is gonna win? Actually thinking about it now someone else should be handicapping him.

TX Poolnut
05-28-2011, 10:32 AM
His whole night should be focused on his business, in my opinion. Beating a bunch of customers in your tournament is only gonna make them come to AZB and post about how they feel. Personally, I wouldn't have played in the tournament if I were the owner. If I wanted to increase the pot, I'd just add money to it.

Sometimes I let my girlfriend win a game or two. It's an investment in the future. :)

maha
05-28-2011, 12:29 PM
exactly he should run his business and not beat his customers.

if he feels he has to play and if he wins or cashes that money should go to the places below him.

if he has any brains he will put what he won in this weeks tournament as added money.

JAMSGOLF
05-28-2011, 12:44 PM
exactly he should run his business and not beat his customers.

if he feels he has to play and if he wins or cashes that money should go to the places below him.

if he has any brains he will put what he won in this weeks tournament as added money.

(I was typing while the above was getting posted)

Okay, so I'm about to host my first nine ball tournament at my place in a few weeks. Pool is just starting to pick up in this area. I've played on an APA team for the first 4 sessions in order to get the interest level of pool up in this area (upstate NY). There aren't a lot of "good" players in this league and I happen to be one of the better players (APA has me as a "6").

When I started asking people if they wanted to get into the tournament, the VERY FIRST QUESTION asked was, "Are you going to be playing?" Nothing about the entry fee, rules, time, date, etc.!

I've told them all "No, I'm not going to play." Except I want to...I love to play. If there's an empty spot to avoid any byes, I want to be in.

I think I came up with the solution after running it by a couple of the players: If I place, I get my own entry fee back, but the remainder of the purse goes into the "pot" for the next tournament...it gives me the incentive I need to play better because a bigger pot the next time will get more players interested. It also gives them incentive as they know I won't be pocketing any of the money!

WoodyJ
05-28-2011, 01:03 PM
If he didnt roll the money over, id say he is way way out of line. He aint too bright in any case.

Yep.

A bar owner here plays every week in his tournaments. Whenever he wins he rolls over the winnings to the next week's tournament. Rollover nights bring in the crowds.

danquixote
05-28-2011, 01:26 PM
I agree that the owner should play. If he wins his own tourny then he should roll over the pot to next weeks event. He would probably get a great turnout as word spread about what a stand up guy he is and a great deal of respect from all that entered. Of course this is just one mans opinion.......Dan

justadub
05-28-2011, 01:48 PM
I think I came up with the solution after running it by a couple of the players: If I place, I get my own entry fee back, but the remainder of the purse goes into the "pot" for the next tournament...it gives me the incentive I need to play better because a bigger pot the next time will get more players interested. It also gives them incentive as they know I won't be pocketing any of the money!

This sounds like a reasonable compromise. A fine idea. Nicely done.

sixpack
05-28-2011, 02:18 PM
Whoa, everybody.

He isn't necessarily a 'bad business owner' and maybe didn't even rank himself too low.
...
The biggest thing is that if you run a handicapped tourney, you are going to have to listen to every person who loses complain about how they are overrated and their opponent is underrated. Your only defense is to use someone else's ratings.

...

dld

And if you run a non-handicapped tourney you'll have to listen to the one guy who showed up complain that nobody has an heart any more...

I like the rollover idea though I never had a problem with the owners or tds playing in their tourneys.

~rc

subdude1974
05-28-2011, 04:32 PM
To host a tournament at your own room and play is one thing. To handicap yourself and play is another. If you do play, you should rank yourself high to avoid any problems. It just doesnt look good to win your own tournament. Personally, I say just dont play in your own tournament. Then, noone can be mad at you.

LucasBilliards
05-29-2011, 11:42 AM
As the son of a really good player who was also an owner I say it depends on the level of play. My dad for example would have won every tournament we held. And we had tournaments that included Paez, King Kong, and Robin Dodson so the tournaments weren't weak. If you're that good you don't need to be playing in your own tournaments. If you play good but not good enough to win or place in the money consistently I say let em play. I do think you should put the money in the next weeks pot or let it pass to the next place though. Oh and our tournaments were not handicapped for the record. If the tournament is handicapped and you play I say you should always rate yourself at the highest level just so there's no reason for anyone to feel cheated.

Hungarian
05-29-2011, 04:21 PM
As someone who owned a pool room and held weekly handicapped events I always felt like I should rank myself at the highest level because then no one could complain if I did well. Also it was a personal challenge to myself.

I think that owners of rooms should play in and enjoy the tournaments they host. Don't forget that they are players too and probably don't get to enjoy the game as much as their customers do.

But they should avoid any taint of impropriety and take the worst of it in their own handicapped events.

Totally agree John. Great post!!!

softshot
05-29-2011, 05:33 PM
I've seen a local bar owner not only play but call and get his wife and older kids to play as well...just to get a full field..

it's tough to judge someone without all the info.. 3 sides to the story and all that...

Bigjohn
05-29-2011, 05:34 PM
A few years ago he mighta got taken out back and his thumbs broken:cool:

cuejo
05-29-2011, 06:47 PM
I dont see the big deal with a room owner playing in, or winning his own tourney. What makes him different from any of the other players in the field?

Is it that the players think that he has enough money........being a rich hall owner?

If he really rated himself too low, he'll figure it out.

I dont see the problem at all, the more entries the better

billy's boy
05-29-2011, 10:27 PM
Since I started this thread I feel the need to update. I went back and played in this tournament again tonight and the owner played again but did move his ranking up to the highest in the tournament. He ended up getting fourth place. By the way I ended up getting third.

Nostroke
05-30-2011, 03:07 AM
Since I started this thread I feel the need to update. I went back and played in this tournament again tonight and the owner played again but did move his ranking up to the highest in the tournament. He ended up getting fourth place. By the way I ended up getting third.

was that one jump up or several? Anyway that should make it more acceptable as he could still be too low as sometimes a whole new level needs to be added. I saw Mika play in one where he had to give everyone the 1 out. I think he won two rounds still.

supergreenman
05-30-2011, 08:34 AM
The only problem I see with the situation is that it's a handicapped tournament.

From my experience, that's the biggest source or complaints. People are never satisfied with thier own or other peoples ranking.

Play straight up.

I'm sure the dead money that goes 2 and out regardless of being a c player or a b player doesn't think he had much of a chance against the favorite to win regardless of how many games on the wire he got.

Handicapped tournaments give people something to blame when they get knocked out rather than taking it as a lesson that they need to practice more and play better.

jason
05-30-2011, 08:48 AM
Personally I would never complain about an owner playing in his/her own tournament. I would never complain about a top pro playing either. In fact, I would encourage both. I would rather lose straight up then win with a handicap (unless it's for cash :) ). People who complain, seek excuses and will never amount to anything. My suggestions is to pull up your sleeves and get to work. Practice practice practice. If you can't do that then maybe the girl scouts need a little help.

Now that I have stated my opinion from a players perspective, as an owner I might make a different call. Business is business and the customer is always right...at least that's the way it should be even if it is not the norm anymore, but thats a different topic all together. Playing to win and taking the money from the customers would be my last priority here. I would always error on the side of caution with any handicap as well.

I like and agree with a lot of the suggestions that have already be stated in this thread.

Spantiznik
05-30-2011, 10:09 AM
I am on the fence with this one.

I am not an owner, just a regular player at the local dive. I have brought this up to some regulars about holding a weekly tourny in the off season of pool playing.

I know that the regular's (non-league players) wouldn't play if I am going to play in a tourny that I would be holding. Because they know that 9.9 out of 10 times they are going to lose. So, i know that they wouldn't sign up if curtian people are going to play.

So, I know myself and I would step down from playing. Though I would love to be able to play, not because of the money, just because I find solice in the game. Pure enjoyment.

Just like the owner how/ what would be the best course of action. Throw caution in the wind and play anyways, or sit out and miss the action.

jason
05-30-2011, 10:20 AM
I am on the fence with this one.

I am not an owner, just a regular player at the local dive. I have brought this up to some regulars about holding a weekly tourny in the off season of pool playing.

I know that the regular's (non-league players) wouldn't play if I am going to play in a tourny that I would be holding. Because they know that 9.9 out of 10 times they are going to lose. So, i know that they wouldn't sign up if curtian people are going to play.

So, I know myself and I would step down from playing. Though I would love to be able to play, not because of the money, just because I find solice in the game. Pure enjoyment.

Just like the owner how/ what would be the best course of action. Throw caution in the wind and play anyways, or sit out and miss the action.

This happens in almost all tournaments. Someone wins it multiple times and the players quit showing up. Pretty soon there isn't a tournament. It doesn't matter what skill level you are at. If someone dominates a tournament someone will complain. How many tournaments say "no pro's allowed"? Way too many in my opinion. I hate handicapped tournaments and cry babies. If you can't swim, go back to the kiddie pool. As I stated in an earlier post, man up and play or go sell girl scout cookies (I recommend the thin mints:p).

poolcuewarehous
05-30-2011, 12:11 PM
The owner should focus on hosting a great tournament and if he does play he should over rate himself. what i have seen it turns players off to the tournament if the owner wins.





Pool Cue Warehouse (http://www.poolcuewarehouse.com)

justadub
05-30-2011, 12:35 PM
This happens in almost all tournaments. Someone wins it multiple times and the players quit showing up. Pretty soon there isn't a tournament. It doesn't matter what skill level you are at. If someone dominates a tournament someone will complain. How many tournaments say "no pro's allowed"? Way too many in my opinion. I hate handicapped tournaments and cry babies. If you can't swim, go back to the kiddie pool. As I stated in an earlier post, man up and play or go sell girl scout cookies (I recommend the thin mints:p).

We've been over this before, but I'll play the punching bag and deliver the obigatory response. All that I'm about to talk about is referring to small in-house tourneys...

There is a point where it becomes foolish to pay to enter a tournament, if you know you have absolutely no chance to compete at any level. I'm not talking about the phrase "no chance to win", or even "to cash", but I mean no chance to even compete.

If the majority of players that are likely to participate in a tourney are significantly better than me, am I expected to simply come in and donate to the prize fund? Once again, if I know that I have no chance to compete? Is that what "manning up" means? I could just walk in and give you my money since you're so much better than me, right? Paying my dues, rights of passage?

If you only want the best and strongest people in your tournament (you know, the ones who will "man up"), expect a small field (and resulting small payout). If you want more people to come and donate to the prize fund, they need to see something for their efforts. And by that I mean a chance to compete. If I'm in a tournament where the same handful of much higher level players win all the time, and we beginners get 2-and-outed every week, I'll probably lose interest after a while. If there are enough lower level players playing where I have a chance to win a round or two (even if I have no real chance to "cash") I'm going to have more interest, because I am "competing".

A fine line, to handicap or not. But if you want a bunch of people donating to your prize fund, you'll have a better chance by making it handicapped. Unless you live in an area populated with a large number of "good" players, and even then they won't come and compete if everyone is good because they won't have a good chance "to cash".

Yes, most everyone knows that we will only get better by playing better opponents. Yes, I would gladly "donate" in a tourney with some bigger names, knowing full well that I have no chance. (But I wouldn't do it every week.) If you want me to come and put money in the prize fund, you better make it worthwhile to everyone, not just you guys who aren't swimming in the kiddie pool, or out selling our Girl Scout cookies. (BTW, Samoas are the better choice, IMHO :p )

There. Now it's out there, blast away. :smilewinkgrin:

To the OP, I think it's fine for the owner to play, so long as he's rated appropriately and the locals are cool with it. Most everyone that is a "local" knows each others speed, so this really shouldn't be an issue. If he's underhandicapped, the locals should know it, and say something.

lorider
05-30-2011, 12:47 PM
We've been over this before, but I'll play the punching bag and deliver the obigatory response. All that I'm about to talk about is referring to small in-house tourneys...

There is a point where it becomes foolish to pay to enter a tournament, if you know you have absolutely no chance to compete at any level. I'm not talking about the phrase "no chance to win", or even "to cash", but I mean no chance to even compete.

If the majority of players that are likely to participate in a tourney are significantly better than me, am I expected to simply come in and donate to the prize fund? Once again, if I know that I have no chance to compete? Is that what "manning up" means? I could just walk in and give you my money since you're so much better than me, right? Paying my dues, rights of passage?

If you only want the best and strongest people in your tournament (you know, the ones who will "man up"), expect a small field (and resulting small payout). If you want more people to come and donate to the prize fund, they need to see something for their efforts. And by that I mean a chance to compete. If I'm in a tournament where the same handful of much higher level players win all the time, and we beginners get 2-and-outed every week, I'll probably lose interest after a while. If there are enough lower level players playing where I have a chance to win a round or two (even if I have no real chance to "cash") I'm going to have more interest, because I am "competing".

A fine line, to handicap or not. But if you want a bunch of people donating to your prize fund, you'll have a better chance by making it handicapped. Unless you live in an area populated with a large number of "good" players, and even then they won't come and compete if everyone is good because they won't have a good chance "to cash".

Yes, most everyone knows that we will only get better by playing better opponents. Yes, I would gladly "donate" in a tourney with some bigger names, knowing full well that I have no chance. (But I wouldn't do it every week.) If you want me to come and put money in the prize fund, you better make it worthwhile to everyone, not just you guys who aren't swimming in the kiddie pool, or out selling our Girl Scout cookies. (BTW, Samoas are the better choice, IMHO :p )

There. Now it's out there, blast away. :smilewinkgrin:

To the OP, I think it's fine for the owner to play, so long as he's rated appropriately and the locals are cool with it. Most everyone that is a "local" knows each others speed, so this really shouldn't be an issue. If he's underhandicapped, the locals should know it, and say something.

could not have said it better myself.