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JoeyA
05-31-2011, 10:07 AM
I don't know how much discussion there has been about Willie Mosconi's world record but I know there's been plenty.

I was just wondering if it would be fair or even appropriate if a 4 x 8 table should be set up with 4 7/8" pockets, like the one Willie used to make the world record that still holds to today?

Many of today's tables have much narrower pockets than this and I'm sure it inhibits todays pocket billiard 14:1 specialists from beating that record.

Would you like to see the world record broken using the same equipment?
Would you prefer seeing the world record broken using today's larger tables with the 4 7/8" pockets?
Or would you prefer to never see Willie's record broken.

Personally, I would like to see the record broken, based upon someone using equipment similar to which Willie played on.

JoeyA

scratchs
05-31-2011, 10:17 AM
I think it's fair to beat the record with the same equipment...then move on to a nine footer.

Jerry Forsyth
05-31-2011, 10:21 AM
This offer has been out there for a while with no takers: I have a Brunswick Anniversary (new rails, new Simonis 860 Blue) that is very close to the table Mosconi used in that it has 4 3/4" pockets and is 4X8. I also have video equipment and a guest house where any top player wishing to make the attempt can stay. I will set up the camera, turn it on and let it run.

Only players known to have long runs at 14.1 are invited or anyone in the top 10 of the BCA rankings.

MitchDAZB
05-31-2011, 10:21 AM
Personally, I would like to see the record broken, based upon someone using equipment similar to which Willie played on.JoeyA
Personally, I'd rather win a world title.

Champions win championships. Does anybody care, for example, about a golfer's best practice round?

Did Willie play with Aramiths on 860? No, but again, who cares? I'd much rather be a champion, say, like Ortmann, than somebody who has run a lotta balls, but has done zippo in world championship play.

Winston846
05-31-2011, 10:26 AM
I don't know how much discussion there has been about Willie Mosconi's world record but I know there's been plenty.

I was just wondering if it would be fair or even appropriate if a 4 x 8 table should be set up with 4 7/8" pockets, like the one Willie used to make the world record that still holds to today?

Many of today's tables have much narrower pockets than this and I'm sure it inhibits todays pocket billiard 14:1 specialists from beating that record.

Would you like to see the world record broken using the same equipment?
Would you prefer seeing the world record broken using today's larger tables with the 4 7/8" pockets?
Or would you prefer to never see Willie's record broken.

Personally, I would like to see the record broken, based upon someone using equipment similar to which Willie played on.

JoeyA

We covered this topic in the 14.1 forum in this thread:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=229984

And FWIW, I happen to agree with you in that it should be attempted on the same or very similar conditions to what Mosconi had.

Winston846
05-31-2011, 10:28 AM
Personally, I'd rather win a world title.

Champions win championships. Does anybody care, for example, about a golfer's best practice round?

Did Willie play with Aramiths on 860? No, but again, who cares? I'd much rather be a champion, say, like Ortmann, than somebody who has run a lotta balls, but has done zippo in world championship play.

Willie won the world title 15 times.

Edit: And I don't believe Aramith existed yet when Willie played.

CocoboloCowboy
05-31-2011, 10:28 AM
Many of Mosconi's Record stand today, and I ask how was he able to do this without, MAGIC CUES, MAGIC TIPS, and MAGIC CHALK? The answer I think was SKILL. AMAZON has his book CHEAP FROM $11.17 (http://www.amazon.com/Willies-Game-Autobiography-Willie-Mosconi/dp/0025874950).

sfleinen
05-31-2011, 10:32 AM
I don't know how much discussion there has been about Willie Mosconi's world record but I know there's been plenty.

I was just wondering if it would be fair or even appropriate if a 4 x 8 table should be set up with 4 7/8" pockets, like the one Willie used to make the world record that still holds to today?

Many of today's tables have much narrower pockets than this and I'm sure it inhibits todays pocket billiard 14:1 specialists from beating that record.

Would you like to see the world record broken using the same equipment?
Would you prefer seeing the world record broken using today's larger tables with the 4 7/8" pockets?
Or would you prefer to never see Willie's record broken.

Personally, I would like to see the record broken, based upon someone using equipment similar to which Willie played on.

JoeyA

Joey:

As someone who plays 14.1 as one of his two favorite games (my two "staple" games, if you will), I'd like to see the record broken on today's standard/regulation 4.5' x 9' tables.

REASON: Willie's hallowed 526 has a footnote (or asterisk) next to it, precisely for this reason. Other greats have actually [unofficially and unconfirmed] broken Willie's 526 on standard 9-footers -- including Mike Eufemia's 626, and Babe Cranfield's 768. Willie's 526 is considered "official," however, because of the actions of the attorney that happened to be present in the audience at the time.

I think Thomas Engert's 492 is a modern-day high run that is actually on par with Willie's 526, because the 492 was done on a tournament-standard/-spec 9-foot table.

There'd actually been a lot of discussion about this in the 14.1 forum.

Perhaps you might want to add a poll? (Just a thought -- it'd be interesting to hear the viewpoint of the non- or occasional-14.1 player.)
-Sean

macguy
05-31-2011, 10:32 AM
I don't know how much discussion there has been about Willie Mosconi's world record but I know there's been plenty.

I was just wondering if it would be fair or even appropriate if a 4 x 8 table should be set up with 4 7/8" pockets, like the one Willie used to make the world record that still holds to today?

Many of today's tables have much narrower pockets than this and I'm sure it inhibits todays pocket billiard 14:1 specialists from beating that record.

Would you like to see the world record broken using the same equipment?
Would you prefer seeing the world record broken using today's larger tables with the 4 7/8" pockets?
Or would you prefer to never see Willie's record broken.

Personally, I would like to see the record broken, based upon someone using equipment similar to which Willie played on.

JoeyA

Should the be an asterisk next to the record, probably. The game has evolved, but you have to also consider he was making record runs on tables that had blanket like cloth, playing in places before air conditioning, different rubber in the rails, different balls and so on. Where do you draw the line? We don't know if it was not even more difficult back then, then it is today and the things he did viewed through that prisim even more astounding.

We don't know how many balls say John could run on a table like Mosconi played on, neither do we know how many balls Mosconi could run on the more perfect conditions that can be found today. I would tend to lean to Mosconi. Under today's conditions he could have been as, if not more, dominate then he was almost 3/4 of a century ago but it is imposable to ever know.

California Kid
05-31-2011, 10:43 AM
Once again, people are doing their best to discredit Mosconi. I had the pleasure to meet him a few times and he was a real class act. What he couldn't stand was the degradation of the wonderful sport that he dedicated his life to improve. He grew up with the hustlers and bums and wanted pool to raise above all that. Look around at your favorite pool hall and see just how many of those people would you want to know where you lived, let alone invite them over to dinner? It's sad to see that a lot of the "Legends" of this wonderful sport are just 2nd rate hustlers and gamblers who would cheat anyone they could for a couple of bucks. Also, IMHO, straight pool can be harder on an 8ft table than a 9ft table. You use mostly 1/2 the table anyway so there is more of a chance to tie up balls. 10ft table is a different story.
I heard Mosconi try to promote larger pockets on most tables so that the average player would not get so discouraged and could make more shots. This, he believed, would lead to more people playing pool.I also believe his Brunswick contract preventing gambling to give pool a better image. When he was a young man in Philadelphia, I'll wager not too many of these "road hustlers"would travel there for some action.
Finally. Seems that the attention span of todays players would really be tested to run 527. Picture throwing out 15 balls out on the table and shooting them all in and doing that 35-36 times with out a miss. Hmmmm.

Rod
05-31-2011, 10:48 AM
Records are made to be broken. I've watched many times and had a brief session with Mosconi. In a way I'd like to see it stand but there is always someone better. The problem with breaking this record is equipment. What pro wants to invest the time on a 4 x 8? BTW Smaller does not mean easier, on a crowded table. As I recall he had a few spectators. Would that happen if someone tried to break the record?

I think his record is far from being challenged at this point. My guess is someone might or will do it one day on a 9 footer but I doubt on an 8 footer.

Rod

sjm
05-31-2011, 10:50 AM
Reproducing the conditions of yesteryear is, to me, time wasted. As some have noted, nappy cloths and lousy pool balls were standard back then, rail rubber was less consistent, low deflection shafts didn't even exist yet, pool rooms were hot and smoky, etc., etc., etc.

How many AZers recall that, in pro baseball, the pitcher's mound was lowered in the late 1960's? Does that mean that we cannot compare the hitters and pitchers of today with those of yesteryear? No, it doesn't. Baseball has evolved and is different today than in the past, but players, fans, and sports journalists all delight in comparing the stats across the generations, despite the fact they understand how much has changed about the game.

Mosconi was the best of his era and owns the highest exhibition run in history (as already mentioned, Cranfield ran 768 in practice). In the exhibitions at the Riviera, noone beat Mosconi, but Willie's record will fall one day. Schmidt, Hohmann, Harriman, Appleton, Ortmann, and a few others have it in them to beat Willie's highest exhibition run, and I wish them good luck in doing so.

The difficulty of comparing players across generations has been discussed often here on the forum. Nonetheless, I feel that trying to reproduce the playing conditions of the past to facilitate such comparison is going overboard.

macguy
05-31-2011, 11:15 AM
Reproducing the conditions of yesteryear is, to me, time wasted. As some have noted, nappy cloths and lousy pool balls were standard back then, rail rubber was less consistent, low deflection shafts didn't even exist yet, pool rooms were hot and smoky, etc., etc., etc.

How many AZers recall that, in pro baseball, the pitcher's mound was lowered in the late 1960's? Does that mean that we cannot compare the hitters and pitchers of today with those of yesteryear? No, it doesn't. Baseball has evolved and is different today than in the past, but players, fans, and sports journalists all delight in comparing the stats across the generations, despite the fact they understand how much has changed about the game.

Mosconi was the best of his era and owns the highest exhibition run in history (as already mentioned, Cranfield ran 768 in practice). In the exhibitions at the Riviera, noone beat Mosconi, but Willie's record will fall one day. Schmidt, Hohmann, Harriman, Appleton, Ortmann, and a few others have it in them to beat Willie's highest exhibition run, and I wish them good luck in doing so.

The difficulty of comparing players across generations has been discussed often here on the forum. Nonetheless, I feel that trying to reproduce the playing conditions of the past to facilitate such comparison is going overboard.
The biggest problem with the record being broken is the amount of 14.1 that is played. For it to be broken a player would have to dedicate himself to doing it. Mosconi played hundreds of exhibitions every year and when ever he would end a game on a run the chant was always for him to continue. I doubt we have any idea how many 200 or 250's he ran and just forgot about during those exhibitions. With no one playing the game today the odds of the record being broken are slim except by a few who are capable, but will they even bother trying.

pt109
05-31-2011, 11:40 AM
How about some 1000 point matches on Tar....
..there's enough talent around to have a lot of match-ups.

be nice to have a 'competitive' high run....

straight pool needs some TAR-TAR sauce

Tom In Cincy
05-31-2011, 11:53 AM
Interesting responses JoeyA

I would like to see it broken only because I know it will have to be video taped for everyone to see and believe.

I think the tables today are tougher than those of the 40s and 50s.

I also believe that the players today would have broken that record long ago if there were any decent money offered.

If 14.1 were as popular as today's 9 ball maybe there would be more interest.

I would rather see Earl's 11 pack or a Snooker, from the break, 147 in competition.

IMO 14.1 just isn't exciting enough to sit through 35+ racks. The only excitement is seeing how close you are to predicting how the shooter will shoot the pattern for the breakout and Key ball.


Would you like to see the world record broken using the same equipment?
Would you prefer seeing the world record broken using today's larger tables with the 4 7/8" pockets?

Personally, I would like to see the record broken, based upon someone using equipment similar to which Willie played on.

JoeyA

Island Drive
05-31-2011, 11:54 AM
I think it would be tougher on an 8 footer, allot more congestion. Much like pros playing 8 ball on a 9 footer compared to bar box 8 ball. It's run out 8 ball on a 9 footer, and not always the case on a box, too much congestion.

macguy
05-31-2011, 12:03 PM
How about some 1000 point matches on Tar....
..there's enough talent around to have a lot of match-ups.

be nice to have a 'competitive' high run....

straight pool needs some TAR-TAR sauce

The problem is, they will being trying to win the match. To make really high runs you have to do things you would not do in a real match. For example, shoot a high risk break shot you would never shoot unless you were just trying to lengthen an exhibition run. In fact you would have to get a bit lucky more then a few times to make a really high run doing things you would never normally do. Even most 100 ball runs are not textbook and require a good roll here and there. Every break shot has the ability to end any run no matter how skilled the player.

watchez
05-31-2011, 12:18 PM
Is there anyone alive that saw Mosconi make his run?

watchez
05-31-2011, 12:20 PM
I think it would be tougher on an 8 footer, allot more congestion. Much like pros playing 8 ball on a 9 footer compared to bar box 8 ball. It's run out 8 ball on a 9 footer, and not always the case on a box, too much congestion.

You can bet what you want - I'll take a Pro breaking and running out on a bar box versus a 9 footer.

dr9ball
05-31-2011, 12:33 PM
I've heard many people state that Mosconi wouldn't have been able to run 526 on a Diamond Pro because they have tighter pockets, faster cloth etc.

One thing they often overlook is that the balls are often more congested on a 4x8 table and the slower cloth may require a better stroke to move the balls around, though in straight pool, cue ball travel is minimized compared to rotation games that are now en-vogue.

Personally, I'd like to see the record broken on any table, if it happens on a Diamond Pro 9 footer all the better.



I don't know how much discussion there has been about Willie Mosconi's world record but I know there's been plenty.

I was just wondering if it would be fair or even appropriate if a 4 x 8 table should be set up with 4 7/8" pockets, like the one Willie used to make the world record that still holds to today?

Many of today's tables have much narrower pockets than this and I'm sure it inhibits todays pocket billiard 14:1 specialists from beating that record.

Would you like to see the world record broken using the same equipment?
Would you prefer seeing the world record broken using today's larger tables with the 4 7/8" pockets?
Or would you prefer to never see Willie's record broken.

Personally, I would like to see the record broken, based upon someone using equipment similar to which Willie played on.

JoeyA

macguy
05-31-2011, 12:34 PM
You can bet what you want - I'll take a Pro breaking and running out on a bar box versus a 9 footer.

You would lose that bet. I have watched pros play 8 ball on a 9 footers and they are a threat to run out the whole session every time the come to the table. I was at a tournament in Vegas around 1995 and every player strung racks. As you watched it became a joke. It was just a war of running out 4,5,6, racks at a clip and I mean everybody. 8 ball for the pros is a joke on a 9 footer.

jay helfert
05-31-2011, 01:05 PM
Reproducing the conditions of yesteryear is, to me, time wasted. As some have noted, nappy cloths and lousy pool balls were standard back then, rail rubber was less consistent, low deflection shafts didn't even exist yet, pool rooms were hot and smoky, etc., etc., etc.

How many AZers recall that, in pro baseball, the pitcher's mound was lowered in the late 1960's? Does that mean that we cannot compare the hitters and pitchers of today with those of yesteryear? No, it doesn't. Baseball has evolved and is different today than in the past, but players, fans, and sports journalists all delight in comparing the stats across the generations, despite the fact they understand how much has changed about the game.

Mosconi was the best of his era and owns the highest exhibition run in history (as already mentioned, Cranfield ran 768 in practice). In the exhibitions at the Riviera, noone beat Mosconi, but Willie's record will fall one day. Schmidt, Hohmann, Harriman, Appleton, Ortmann, and a few others have it in them to beat Willie's highest exhibition run, and I wish them good luck in doing so.

The difficulty of comparing players across generations has been discussed often here on the forum. Nonetheless, I feel that trying to reproduce the playing conditions of the past to facilitate such comparison is going overboard.

Good post Stu. It would be next to impossible to duplicate those conditions today. The table was an A.E. Schmidt over-sized 4x8 (46"x92") and it had straight cut pockets and fairly deep shelves. They were not "buckets" as many have suggested. I played on similar tables as a young man, and if you didn't hit the pocket cleanly, the ball wouldn't go in. Throw in the slow cloth and the clay balls (remember this was the 50's) and all of a sudden it's not easy to run even 100 balls!

Even the esteemed Lassiter (who was a great 14.1 player) said he liked to practice on a 4x8 to "get my cue ball." If he could play the close position required on the smaller table, he felt that he was now ready to compete successfully on the 4.5x9 tournament tables. And he didn't have such a bad record either! Just the most successful player of his era. But maybe someone wants to fault him for playing with slightly larger pockets, which by the way wasn't always the case. There were many tourneys (and challenge matches) played on very tough tables in the 60's and 70's. Almost every action spot had at least one (or more) triple tough tables, mostly for One Pocket.

One more thing, Mosconi was playing in front of an audience and it was a real exhibition match. He had only one chance to make this run! Both Cranfield and Eufemia made their runs in the 60's while PRACTICING! And they were using phenolic balls (big difference right there). Eufemia was practicing in his local room and Cranfield SUPPOSEDLY did it while practicing at home! Mosconi was playing in a strange room that he'd been in only once before. I get very tired of people knocking what was an amazing feat of pool wizardry by one of the greatest players of all time. I saw the man play when he could still dab it a little. And no one today could play Straight Pool like this guy. The only player I saw who was even close was The Miz, and even he wasn't quite on a par with Willie at his best. Sigel would be third on my personal list. And these three were on another level then anyone else. Sorry boys but that's just my opinion. :wink:

watchez
05-31-2011, 01:11 PM
You would lose that bet. I have watched pros play 8 ball on a 9 footers and they are a threat to run out the whole session every time the come to the table. I was at a tournament in Vegas around 1995 and every player strung racks. As you watched it became a joke. It was just a war of running out 4,5,6, racks at a clip and I mean everybody. 8 ball for the pros is a joke on a 9 footer.

I think your memory must be lost from 1995. In fact, there is statiscal data to back up what I am saying and since we will never have a chance to bet -
go to www.internationalpooltour.com and find me a player that had a 40% or higher break and run % for one of the events.

Efren did pretty good for those events and his % was 20% was he won First Place and $500K.

http://www.internationalpooltour.com/Players/Bio_Reyes_Efren.aspx

itsfroze
05-31-2011, 01:19 PM
I don't know how much discussion there has been about Willie Mosconi's world record but I know there's been plenty.

I was just wondering if it would be fair or even appropriate if a 4 x 8 table should be set up with 4 7/8" pockets, like the one Willie used to make the world record that still holds to today?

Many of today's tables have much narrower pockets than this and I'm sure it inhibits todays pocket billiard 14:1 specialists from beating that record.

Would you like to see the world record broken using the same equipment?
Would you prefer seeing the world record broken using today's larger tables with the 4 7/8" pockets?
Or would you prefer to never see Willie's record broken. PS his were on 9 footers by the way.
Personally, I would like to see the record broken, based upon someone using equipment similar to which Willie played on.

JoeyA

Yes Joey I agree I would like to see the record broken on same equipment just as you said . Why ,because it's already been broken twice by Ziggy (Mike Eufimia) spelled wrong probably but his record breaking peformances with witnesses were never recognized. He also ran 1100 and something in Paramus N.J.. It was was in a bowling alley which I think was called Ten Pin on the mall which was in the basement of the shopping center and there was a small pool room of about 7 or 8 tables 9 footers and it was on table one and there is a plaque on the wall that says the exact number of balls which I can't raemember exactly and that there were witnesses.

hunger strike
05-31-2011, 01:23 PM
Well, during part of the history of straight pool, the ten footer era, the championship pocket size was 4.5 inches. Helfert makes a very important point, the pocket angle and shelf can make balls tough to make even with bigger pockets. Even if someone beats the 526, they won't be Mosconi. He was who he was because of a very long and distinguished career and was a legend before the 526. And if someone had beaten that during his lifetime he would have beaten them back, from most accounts...even after he had his stroke.
~Peck away at the 526 all ya want, you're pecking at a battleship. Personally I am glad that there are a variety of games, along with equipment changes that make it impossible to compare some heroes to others. That just gives us more legitimate heroes for our sport.

itsfroze
05-31-2011, 01:37 PM
Once again, people are doing their best to discredit Mosconi. I had the pleasure to meet him a few times and he was a real class act. What he couldn't stand was the degradation of the wonderful sport that he dedicated his life to improve. He grew up with the hustlers and bums and wanted pool to raise above all that. Look around at your favorite pool hall and see just how many of those people would you want to know where you lived, let alone invite them over to dinner? It's sad to see that a lot of the "Legends" of this wonderful sport are just 2nd rate hustlers and gamblers who would cheat anyone they could for a couple of bucks. Also, IMHO, straight pool can be harder on an 8ft table than a 9ft table. You use mostly 1/2 the table anyway so there is more of a chance to tie up balls. 10ft table is a different story.
I heard Mosconi try to promote larger pockets on most tables so that the average player would not get so discouraged and could make more shots. This, he believed, would lead to more people playing pool.I also believe his Brunswick contract preventing gambling to give pool a better image. When he was a young man in Philadelphia, I'll wager not too many of these "road hustlers"would travel there for some action.
Finally. Seems that the attention span of todays players would really be tested to run 527. Picture throwing out 15 balls out on the table and shooting them all in and doing that 35-36 times with out a miss. Hmmmm.

Do you think that Willie was also a class act when he was in the finals of a straight pool tournament and the ref called a foul on him and he ended up finishing second. Well when the money and trophy presentation was being held and by chance the same ref called Willie up first to give him his second place money,Willie took the money he was handed in one hand and with his other knocked out the ref who was handing him the money and walked out. Real classy I'd say.

macguy
05-31-2011, 01:38 PM
I think your memory must be lost from 1995. In fact, there is statiscal data to back up what I am saying and since we will never have a chance to bet -
go to www.internationalpooltour.com and find me a player that had a 40% or higher break and run % for one of the events.

Efren did pretty good for those events and his % was 20% was he won First Place and $500K.

http://www.internationalpooltour.com/Players/Bio_Reyes_Efren.aspx

I can only tell you what I have seen. I remember watching Joe Salazar play Gene the Machine in like a 20 hour session of 8 ball on the 9 footer. 5 and 7 racks at a time were nothing for either if them.

I should add the % you point to in the IPT if you moved those same players to 8 foot tables would go down not up.

I should also add the the IPT tables were intentionally set up to play lousy and hard to play on from the cloth to pockets. They were not run of the mill tables.

Black-Balled
05-31-2011, 01:46 PM
Many of Mosconi's Record stand today, and I ask how was he able to do this without, MAGIC CUES, MAGIC TIPS, and MAGIC CHALK? The answer I think was SKILL. AMAZON has his book CHEAP FROM $11.17 (http://www.amazon.com/Willies-Game-Autobiography-Willie-Mosconi/dp/0025874950).
Please...tell us more:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_9w-0b9-IpdI/TMy1m0Dx6iI/AAAAAAAAAKs/iqj1wd3E0vU/s320/sarcasm.jpg

AtLarge
05-31-2011, 02:09 PM
I think your memory must be lost from 1995. In fact, there is statiscal data to back up what I am saying and since we will never have a chance to bet -
go to www.internationalpooltour.com and find me a player that had a 40% or higher break and run % for one of the events.

Efren did pretty good for those events and his % was 20% was he won First Place and $500K.

http://www.internationalpooltour.com/Players/Bio_Reyes_Efren.aspx

I agree with your point to macguy that 8-ball B&R's aren't as common in most events as he would imply. But you are using the IPT data incorrectly. The 20% figure for Reyes is a bogus figure -- number of B&R's by Reyes divided by the total number of games he played (which, obviously, includes games in which he did not break). What we'd like to know is number of B&R's divided by number of games in which he broke. The other B&R percentage given in the IPT data is close to that (assuming it was winner breaks format) -- number of B&R's divided by number of games won.

As far as finding a player with higher than a 40% B&R percentage for one of those events, check out Morris (44.8%), Souquet (43.4%), Ortmann (47.9%), and Bustamente (42.9%) -- all in the 2006 World Open in Reno.

I added up the total number of B&R games and the total number of games won by the top 10 money winners in the two IPT events for which data are given -- the 2006 North American Open in Las Vegas and the 2006 World Open in Reno. They had 1,152 B&R's and 3,218 games won, for a percentage of about 36%.

watchez
05-31-2011, 02:11 PM
I can only tell you what I have seen. I remember watching Joe Salazar play Gene the Machine in like a 20 hour session of 8 ball on the 9 footer. 5 and 7 racks at a time were nothing for either if them.

I should add the % you point to in the IPT if you moved those same players to 8 foot tables would go down not up.

I should also add the the IPT tables were intentionally set up to play lousy and hard to play on from the cloth to pockets. They were not run of the mill tables.

You said bar boxes ---

We can setup two tables - a 9 footer and a bar box. You can pick any player you want to play on the 9 footer. I'll take SVB on the bar box and the window is open he breaks and runs higher than the 9 foot player.

Correct At Large --- and on a bar table those players would be 65% or higher.

End of thread hijack --- back to someone breaking Willie's record. No one will in my lifetime simply because the game is not played enough.

TX Poolnut
05-31-2011, 02:14 PM
When the record officially falls, (and it will fall sooner or later) there will be those that insist that because the rails are different, because the table is different, because the __________ (fill in the blank) is different that there should be different records for different equipment.

Maybe there should be, but if someone gets to 527 and it's verifiable, I think the pool world should acknowledge that acomplishment as the new record.

johnnyutah
05-31-2011, 02:15 PM
Personally, I'd rather win a world title.

Champions win championships. Does anybody care, for example, about a golfer's best practice round?

Did Willie play with Aramiths on 860? No, but again, who cares? I'd much rather be a champion, say, like Ortmann, than somebody who has run a lotta balls, but has done zippo in world championship play.

Mosconi had 15 of them!

jay helfert
05-31-2011, 03:37 PM
When the record officially falls, (and it will fall sooner or later) there will be those that insist that because the rails are different, because the table is different, because the __________ (fill in the blank) is different that there should be different records for different equipment.

Maybe there should be, but if someone gets to 527 and it's verifiable, I think the pool world should acknowledge that acomplishment as the new record.

I'm with you here. Some day this record will be broken and hat's off to the person who does it. Gold Crown, Diamond, Kim Steel, Gabriel, whatever, it doesn't matter. It will be some feat when it happens.

Winston846
05-31-2011, 03:44 PM
The only player I saw who was even close was The Miz, and even he wasn't quite on a par with Willie at his best. Sigel would be third on my personal list. And these three were on another level then anyone else. Sorry boys but that's just my opinion. :wink:

Irving Crane??? No love for Irving, Jay?

brandoncook26
05-31-2011, 03:47 PM
I really think of the current group of players, John Schmidt has the best chance to break the record. There are a group of guys, previously mentioned, that all have the talent to do it. I think Schmidt has the best chance because he is the only one I know of that actively plays the game all the time.

In the 14.1 forum, there is a thread about Schmidt practicing at Marop's and he had three runs of >200 in the same day. It is conceivable to believe that someone putting in the time has a chance to do so. There are multiple 400+ runs. I believe that a 500 will be done in the next few years, and hopefully with the technology we have, we will get it recorded.

Winston846
05-31-2011, 03:50 PM
I really think of the current group of players, John Schmidt has the best chance to break the record. There are a group of guys, previously mentioned, that all have the talent to do it. I think Schmidt has the best chance because he is the only one I know of that actively plays the game all the time.

In the 14.1 forum, there is a thread about Schmidt practicing at Marop's and he had three runs of >200 in the same day. It is conceivable to believe that someone putting in the time has a chance to do so. There are multiple 400+ runs. I believe that a 500 will be done in the next few years, and hopefully with the technology we have, we will get it recorded.

Thorsten Hohmann can run balls like no tomorrow, too. I also think Darren Appleton could give it a run if he played the game a little more.

brandoncook26
05-31-2011, 04:03 PM
Thorsten Hohmann can run balls like no tomorrow, too. I also think Darren Appleton could give it a run if he played the game a little more.

I agree with your assessment. Honestly, I think Toastie is the best straight pool player in the world. I think he is as smooth as anyone in history, and I like his style when playing.

Darren is amazing. A few years ago he entered the straight pool challenge at the derby without even knowing the rules and won it.

The only reason I put Schmidt above Hohmann is because of his activity in the game. Maybe Thorsten puts in time in the game, but John is the only one I know of that does for sure. You can't get really high runs without putting in the time. Those monster runs are occasionally sprinkled in around much smaller ones. The more they play, the better chance at the big one.

Winston846
05-31-2011, 04:05 PM
I agree with your assessment. Honestly, I think Toastie is the best straight pool player in the world. I think he is as smooth as anyone in history, and I like his style when playing.

Darren is amazing. A few years ago he entered the straight pool challenge at the derby without even knowing the rules and won it.

The only reason I put Schmidt above Hohmann is because of his activity in the game. Maybe Thorsten puts in time in the game, but John is the only one I know of that does for sure.

And I agree with your assessment. I also think Schmidt has the BEST chance. I just threw out two other names that I think could do it as well. :wink:

Edit: And if Danny Harriman starts playing regularly again, I wouldn't rule him out.

jay helfert
05-31-2011, 08:49 PM
Irving Crane??? No love for Irving, Jay?

Absolutely! I guess I was referring to the modern generation of Straight Pool players when I mentioned Mizerak and Sigel. And now I realize we ain't so "modern" ourselves! Crane and Caras were traditionally Mosconi's big rivals throughout his career. And Ponzi (along with Greenleaf) was he nemesis when he was a young man and had trouble winning his first championship. After the big three of Mosconi, Crane and Caras had their 20-25 year reign, Lassiter and Balsis became the big guns of 14.1.

This was still the heyday of Straight Pool tourneys (up until the 70's when 9-Ball took over). Guys like Ray Martin, Nick Varner, Jim Rempe, Dallas West and Allen Hopkins were the main challengers for Mizerak and Sigel. Danny Diliberto spanned both these generations as a solid contender as well, with Lou Butera another championship player. But the top dogs were Lassiter and Balsis, circa 1960's, and Mizerak and Sigel in the 70's and 80's.

Palmerfan
05-31-2011, 09:57 PM
Should the be an asterisk next to the record, probably. The game has evolved, but you have to also consider he was making record runs on tables that had blanket like cloth, playing in places before air conditioning, different rubber in the rails, different balls and so on. Where do you draw the line? We don't know if it was not even more difficult back then, then it is today and the things he did viewed through that prisim even more astounding.

We don't know how many balls say John could run on a table like Mosconi played on, neither do we know how many balls Mosconi could run on the more perfect conditions that can be found today. I would tend to lean to Mosconi. Under today's conditions he could have been as, if not more, dominate then he was almost 3/4 of a century ago but it is imposable to ever know.

Had Efren played 14.1 and practiced like he did for Rotation growing up and much later for One Pocket he would be running balls right now..that he started running 2 days ago..I have spoken to players who spent time watching him in the Philippines say without a doubt he could have run over 1000..more than once on a 5x10 table, forget 4x8 or 4 1/2 x 9..Diamond, Brunswick or Olhausen..shimmed pockets or not..no question. He is also famous for playing "tap" when he gets bored which is when you put two object balls frozen in the middle of the table and lightly tap them with a cue ball until they separate so far that the cue ball cant strike both of them..he then turns and shoots one of the balls around the table 3-4 rails and gets it touching or very close to the other object ball and continues...for HOURS. He also practices 2 9 ball racks at a time shooting the 1 and the 1..the 2 and the 2..in that order and has gotten as far as the 7 ball.

Had 14.1 been a game he focused on and played seriously he would have done things in that game that we cant conceive of. The same way he changed the way kicking was executed in 9-10 ball before he came along...he would have changed something in the way 14.1 is played. I'm sure he could identify "dead" balls in a rack right now that most experienced players don't see. his eyes his pool mind and his creativity is simply on a different level that no pool player has reached.

rossaroni
06-01-2011, 12:09 AM
If someone gets to get 525, Brunswick will have their snipers ready...:cool:

realkingcobra
06-01-2011, 04:58 AM
Do you think that Willie was also a class act when he was in the finals of a straight pool tournament and the ref called a foul on him and he ended up finishing second. Well when the money and trophy presentation was being held and by chance the same ref called Willie up first to give him his second place money,Willie took the money he was handed in one hand and with his other knocked out the ref who was handing him the money and walked out. Real classy I'd say.

Where did you ever get your information for that last statement?

pt109
06-01-2011, 05:58 AM
Absolutely! I guess I was referring to the modern generation of Straight Pool players when I mentioned Mizerak and Sigel. And now I realize we ain't so "modern" ourselves! Crane and Caras were traditionally Mosconi's big rivals throughout his career. And Ponzi (along with Greenleaf) was he nemesis when he was a young man and had trouble winning his first championship. After the big three of Mosconi, Crane and Caras had their 20-25 year reign, Lassiter and Balsis became the big guns of 14.1.

This was still the heyday of Straight Pool tourneys (up until the 70's when 9-Ball took over). Guys like Ray Martin, Nick Varner, Jim Rempe, Dallas West and Allen Hopkins were the main challengers for Mizerak and Sigel. Danny Diliberto spanned both these generations as a solid contender as well, with Lou Butera another championship player. But the top dogs were Lassiter and Balsis, circa 1960's, and Mizerak and Sigel in the 70's and 80's.

I feel compelled to throw another name in here, Jay.
I played on one of his tables....Frank Taberski...
reminds me of JA's game..not dashing, but you could bet on him

jay helfert
06-01-2011, 06:14 AM
I feel compelled to throw another name in here, Jay.
I played on one of his tables....Frank Taberski...
reminds me of JA's game..not dashing, but you could bet on him

Now you're going back even one more generation! He was the champ before Greenleaf took over, more than 80 years ago. Actually it really isn't that long ago, when I think that my father watched Greenleaf play in New York. And the man I grew up admiring, George Rood, played against Greenleaf many times. He only died recently.

8ballEinstein
06-01-2011, 06:36 AM
I feel compelled to throw another name in here, Jay.
I played on one of his tables....Frank Taberski...
reminds me of JA's game..not dashing, but you could bet on him

Now that's digging way back!

I met one of Frank's grandsons, Brad Taberski, many years ago. He said grandpa used to run hundreds of balls in practice. This would have been on the old 5 X 10 tables. He had a super sharp ability to read the rack better than anyone, it was said.

Brad had one of Frank's practice cues with him when I saw him. He let me check it out. It didn't look like anything special but judging from the countersunk joint and old styling, it might have been a rare Herman Rambow cue. I shot a few balls with it and, my god, it had a sweet feeling hit to it.

Brad never took up the game seriously and only of few of Frank's decendents play at all.

Edit: I should also add that Frank had no problem staring at a cluster of balls for 15 minutes, looking for a makable ball. If none was there, he'd take a restroom break, come back and end his inning playing a safe. This drove his opponents and spectators nuts. He could've single-handedly killed the game entirely.

Nostroke
06-01-2011, 06:42 AM
Where did you ever get your information for that last statement?

That story has been around for a while. DiLiberto said it didnt happen but by all accounts Willie was not real classy during the 2nd prize presentation.

vagabond
06-01-2011, 07:43 AM
That story has been around for a while. DiLiberto said it didnt happen but by all accounts Willie was not real classy during the 2nd prize presentation.

I remember seeing more than 15 years ago some video clip or in print or something like that where willie was shown assaulting a tournament staff ( TD or referre ).He punched/slapped/shoved or whatever word one chooses to use.It was an assault.The only thing I now remember is that it happened in Greater Los Angeles area in California.I do not know any other details.:cool:

hunger strike
06-01-2011, 07:55 AM
The really awful shame of history is that there is no film of Mosconi in his prime really running balls. This is probably due to the near-death of pool and thus it's associated journalistic documentation at the height of Mosconi's ball running ability. Nobody is going to make much of a believable argument against Efren Reyes once he's gone because there's just too much video. All of the most impressive shots done by every other player I have ever watched do not add up to what I have seen Efren do.
I do wish however that someone would just pay Reyes to play straight pool on video, day after day. I wonder if he knows how badly his fans and admirers want to see a huge straight pool run by him. Like many of his fans, I believe he would not only eclipse the record if he tried but dazzle us many times doing it. I can feel time running out on this.... does anyone else see in their mind's eye the image of catalog pages flying off a calendar and a clock spinning toward the irrevocable loss of this chance Efren Reyes has?

JoeyA
06-01-2011, 08:09 AM
There is a part of me that reveres the World Record by Willie Mosconi not because of the number of balls run but because of the length of time the record has stood.

There is lots to discuss and people as always will side on one side of the fence or the other for various reasons about anything like what is being discussed in this thread.

The reason I started this thread is because I think the world needs another straight pool "world record holder" champion, one who can say that he indeed holds the WORLD RECORD in straight pool. A video recording is sorely needed for this next WORLD RECORD in straight pool. A crowd witnessing the record breaking would make it even better.

For me, I don't measure the World Records by weighing the merits of how a person's personality is perceived. Each of us has our good side and our bad side and Willie and the rest of the current pros are no different.

I do however believe that the equipment makes a big difference. Tough, narrow Diamond pockets with a little humidity can be brutal on a 9 foot table FOR ANY PLAYER and don't go to talking about older, thinner cloth. Sure, Willie didn't always have perfect playing conditions but he like every other top straight pool player knows and demands top playing conditions to improve their level of play.

I have also been wondering if there are enough people with money to spend on reviving similar straight pool exhibitions from yesteryear. The straight pool championships seem to be growing in numbers and added money so why not have some of these straight pool exhibitions which Willie was so well know for.

Mark Cantrill made some successful jaunts with the legends of pool and I was wondering if the pool world is ready for exhibition style straight pool. I see that there is a lot of passion for the game in this thread and would love to see it grow even though I haven't been fully bitten by the bug.

Willie will always be known as one of the greatest pool players that has ever lived regardless of who breaks his record and regardless of what equipment they do it on. There is no dishonor in having your record broken. Willie has moved on from our vision and it is time to find a living champion to share that record with.

JoeyA

Winston846
06-01-2011, 08:11 AM
That story has been around for a while. DiLiberto said it didnt happen but by all accounts Willie was not real classy during the 2nd prize presentation.

In Danny's book, he says that Willie said something to the TD to the effect that he could take the 2nd place trophy/check and shove it up his a**, and that the story had been spun over the years but that they never really came to blows.

Nostroke
06-01-2011, 08:38 AM
I believe a straight pool exhibition tour could be a winner mainly because it appeals to the older crowd who are willing and able to part with some cash.

Nostroke
06-01-2011, 08:42 AM
In Danny's book, he says that Willie said something to the TD to the effect that he could take the 2nd place trophy/check and shove it up his a**, and that the story had been spun over the years but that they never really came to blows.

and Danny WAS there unlike many who tell the KO story.

Tom In Cincy
06-01-2011, 08:48 AM
Oh so true... very difficult to put the bit on the younger generation.. they usually don't have any money and when they do it's always "I already spent it, I have these other people that I owe"


I believe a straight pool exhibition tour could be a winner mainly because it appeals to the older crowd who are willing and able to part with some cash.

jay helfert
06-01-2011, 09:33 AM
and Danny WAS there unlike many who tell the KO story.

Okay, it happened in 1966 in Burbank, CA. Fred Whalen promoted the 14.1 World Straight Pool tournament at the Elks Lodge there. Arnie Satin was his TD. Fred paid Willie $10,000 to come out of retirement (after 10 years) and play. Willie badly wanted to win and was on his way to victory until Cisero Murphy beat him in a critical match. Joe Balsis (who also had beaten Willie earlier) then took first and Willie got second.

Mosconi did not care much for Satin and the feelings were mutual. At the award ceremony there were words between the two and Willie shoved Satin after being handed his trophy. NO blows were thrown. I was told by Whalen that Satin made some sarcastic remark (I forgot what) when he handed Willie his prize. Willie took offense and made his nasty response about where to put the trophy. They got a little too close and Willie gave Arnie a shove to get out of his way. Then cooler heads got between them.

That's the way I remember Whalen's version of the story. The shove became a punch in the various re-tellings.

Nostroke
06-01-2011, 09:40 AM
That's the way I remember Whalen's version of the story. The shove became a punch in the various re-tellings.

Not only a punch but a Knock Out.

Anyway thanks for clarification but im sure i will hear the KO story again if i live long enough-3-4 months probably.

LowRight
06-01-2011, 09:41 AM
I was just wondering if it would be fair or even appropriate if a 4 x 8 table should be set up with 4 7/8" pockets, like the one Willie used to make the world record that still holds to today?......
JoeyA

The table would have to have the same cloth that Willie used (whatever that was) or something with essentially similar properties. I know it wasn't Simonis 860 and was much slower with a nap.

The hardest part about straight pool isn't pocketing balls (which the table and pocket sizes affect), it's opening up the pack and subsequent clusters while continuing a run. Many times with Simonis 860, all it takes is one break shot. With a slow cloth, it usually takes two or three attempts to fully separate the balls. For this reason, straight pool is far too easy for pros on Simonis 860 no matter the table and pocket sizes.

IMHO, breaking Mosconi's record on a table with Simonis 860 would require an asterisk.

Tom In Cincy
06-01-2011, 09:52 AM
Although I do realize the '526' record is reveered by many players, but this was done in an exhibition not tournament play.

It is akin to the 75 yard field goal made in a practice with the wind behind the kick.

Or 156 consecutive free throws in basketball. Not in a game but in practice.

Or the 700 foot home run in batting practice.

or the 300 mph lap speed in time trials.



IMO Outside of the competition, records are just fluff for the fans.

macguy
06-01-2011, 10:01 AM
Okay, it happened in 1966 in Burbank, CA. Fred Whalen promoted the 14.1 World Straight Pool tournament at the Elks Lodge there. Arnie Satin was his TD. Fred paid Willie $10,000 to come out of retirement (after 10 years) and play. Willie badly wanted to win and was on his way to victory until Cisero Murphy beat him in a critical match. Joe Balsis (who also had beaten Willie earlier) then took first and Willie got second.

Mosconi did not care much for Satin and the feelings were mutual. At the award ceremony there were words between the two and Willie shoved Satin after being handed his trophy. NO blows were thrown. I was told by Whalen that Satin made some sarcastic remark (I forgot what) when he handed Willie his prize. Willie took offense and made his nasty response about where to put the trophy. They got a little too close and Willie gave Arnie a shove to get out of his way. Then cooler heads got between them.

That's the way I remember Whalen's version of the story. The shove became a punch in the various re-tellings.
I am going to throw this out there and someone else can comment on it. By the way Danny told me this story. This all really started during the tournament when a foul was called on Mosconi. Mosconi refused to admit to it and argued attempting to continue playing pushing the ref aside. The ref being in an awkward situation having to dispute the great Mosconi stood his ground. At that point Mosconi was trying to now say the foul didn't count on him because he doesn't play by those rules or something of that nature. It was all caught in a series of photos that have Mosconi with his arms flying all over the place and in the refs face yelling. Even though they are just black and white pictures you can almost hear Mosconi the pictures are so vivid. The set I had were lost in a hurricane along with a ton of billiard memorabilia. My copies were not the only ones I am sure. I wonder if someone out there still has them. If someone can get in touch with Danny D. I am sure he will tell the story in more detail and he may even have the pictures I was referring to.

Nostroke
06-01-2011, 10:07 AM
Although I do realize the '526' record is reverred by many players, but this was done in an exhibition not tournament play.

It is akin to the 75 yard field goal made in a practice with the wind behind the kick.

Or 156 consecutive free throws in basketball. Not in a game but in practice.

Or the 700 foot home run in batting practice.

or the 300 mph lap speed in time trials.



Outside of the competition, records are just fluff for the fans.


Ok but It's never going to be done in true tournament play-once 125/150 points are reached that match is over and its just running balls and going for the record. I doubt you will see the run ended on a safe (that would be funny) They are just gonna keep firing away.

Not to mention there have been only 2 claims to higher practice runs and who really knows about those.

Fans love records and the guy who breaks the record will make at least $250k off it (sad) and generate whole lot of interest for the sport. Im thinking about kicking in some addl bonus money next year for it but i have to wait to make sure the market doesn't crash in the mean time.

sydbarret
06-01-2011, 10:12 AM
The felt vs cloth is a big difference. So if someone was going to try and break it on a 4x8 it would be cool if it was felt.

I think Mosconi has a high run of over 400 on a 5x10 with felt correct??

Also as far as ease for break and runs for 8 ball it's bartable>>>bigtable(assuming same cueball)


I've never seen Willie hit a ball under 70 or 80 yrs old but from everyone that has seen him in his prime they all seem to say there was just something different(better)about the way Willie did it than everyone else.

pt109
06-01-2011, 10:14 AM
The table would have to have the same cloth that Willie used (whatever that was) or something with essentially similar properties. I know it wasn't Simonis 860 and was much slower with a nap.

The hardest part about straight pool isn't pocketing balls (which the table and pocket sizes affect), it's opening up the pack and subsequent clusters while continuing a run. Many times with Simonis 860, all it takes is one break shot. With a slow cloth, it usually takes two or three attempts to fully separate the balls. For this reason, straight pool is far too easy for pros on Simonis 860 no matter the table and pocket sizes.

IMHO, breaking Mosconi's record on a table with Simonis 860 would require an asterisk.

I think the talk of all that slow cloth is exaggerated.
I played lots from the middle 60's on and played on lots of fast cloth.
Played very little bar-box and that's where most of the rough cloth was.

In Florida, I actually played 9-ball on carom cloth...'68.
In '78, the best 5x10 snooker table I ever saw was in Decatur IL....
..it had carom cloth.

The famous Rack in Detroit, when Gil Elias owned it, had cloth that was
somewhere between carom and 760 speed-wise.

LA,in the 60's....never ran into one 'horse-blanket'.

Some pool halls DID have thick cloth, but in general I associated cheap
cloth with 'bar' conditions.

macguy
06-01-2011, 10:51 AM
I think the talk of all that slow cloth is exaggerated.
I played lots from the middle 60's on and played on lots of fast cloth.
Played very little bar-box and that's where most of the rough cloth was.

In Florida, I actually played 9-ball on carom cloth...'68.
In '78, the best 5x10 snooker table I ever saw was in Decatur IL....
..it had carom cloth.

The famous Rack in Detroit, when Gil Elias owned it, had cloth that was
somewhere between carom and 760 speed-wise.

LA,in the 60's....never ran into one 'horse-blanket'.

Some pool halls DID have thick cloth, but in general I associated cheap
cloth with 'bar' conditions.

Playing straight pool it made a difference. After the break shot the balls would be all tied up in clusters more so then today's cloth; where when you shoot a break shot you may not have two balls touching evenly spread around the table. Another thing the thicker cloth would wear differently especially at the rails. You would get deep groves along the rails from the balls striking the rail and changing direction making an indentation. It was more then just the speed. Balls would also act funny around the rack area sometimes just falling against each other freezing up. Same with the rails and the grooves I mentioned. A ball would bump the rail stop and fall back freezing to the rail resting in the groove. It was worse in tournaments because the cloth was new and by say the third day could be playing really weird. In a pool room the cloth would reach a certain wear and it didn't really matter anymore. In fact in pool rooms it often wore to down till it was like a bed sheet depending on how well the owner maintained the tables.

I remember driving Jimmy Caras to an exhibition and they had recovered the table fresh for the exhibition. It was awful his high run was like 25, you could not get the rack open no matter what you did. The very first break shot he had was the last ball against the side rail where you cut it in and go into the side of the rack. The balls just stayed there and the cue ball stuck to the side, we just looked at each other. He just took it in stride and did a great show regardless no complaining. On the way back he was telling me horror stories what it was like playing way back when. He said a 100 ball run was considered an accomplishment depending on the conditions.
Today players would walk out if they had to play under some of those conditions. I don't think many players would enjoy playing with a wet towel wrapped around their necks. Summer pool was a killer back then.

pt109
06-01-2011, 11:20 AM
Today players would walk out if they had to play under some of those conditions. I don't think many players would enjoy playing with a wet towel wrapped around their necks. Summer pool was a killer back then.

You brought back a memory with this one.
I hate talcum powder.
Playing in August...and it was raining cats and dogs...'67
..stuck 70% of my bank-roll...went to the powder and bust the room.

Saw two straight pool players playing under these conditions..
..they were 200-ball runners....
in three games to 150...nobody ran 30.

In Jimmy Moore's room ...saw a guy using a $bill in his bridge hand...
..fore-runner of the glove

Tom In Cincy
06-01-2011, 11:26 AM
There were plenty of times the matches were races to 1500 or 2000 balls. Over a time period of a week. That is how some of the champions made money. They were challenged by one of the top contenders of the day.

Each day there was a break point agreed to by the players. Maybe 300 balls per day or until a run was finished.

Not all of the 40s and 50s championships were won in a tournament. Sometimes there were 4 challenge matches a year.



Ok but It's never going to be done in true tournament play-once 125/150 points are reached that match is over and its just running balls and going for the record. I doubt you will see the run ended on a safe (that would be funny) They are just gonna keep firing away.

Not to mention there have been only 2 claims to higher practice runs and who really knows about those.

Fans love records and the guy who breaks the record will make at least $250k off it (sad) and generate whole lot of interest for the sport. Im thinking about kicking in some addl bonus money next year for it but i have to wait to make sure the market doesn't crash in the mean time.

brandoncook26
06-01-2011, 11:34 AM
In Jimmy Moore's room ...saw a guy using a $bill in his bridge hand...
..fore-runner of the glove

There was an old timer where I used to play tournaments that played with a rolled up bill around his shaft. That's the only time I've ever seen that done.

ironman
06-01-2011, 12:42 PM
Where did you ever get your information for that last statement?

LMAO at that one!! I have always doubted Willie could whip my ex wife!

Mr441
06-01-2011, 01:37 PM
The felt vs cloth is a big difference. So if someone was going to try and break it on a 4x8 it would be cool if it was felt.

I think Mosconi has a high run of over 400 on a 5x10 with felt correct??

Also as far as ease for break and runs for 8 ball it's bartable>>>bigtable(assuming same cueball)


I've never seen Willie hit a ball under 70 or 80 yrs old but from everyone that has seen him in his prime they all seem to say there was just something different(better)about the way Willie did it than everyone else.


I think it was babe Cranfield who ran 420 balls on a 5x10. Mosconi ran 353 on a 5x10....not long after that he ran 365 but he never said what kind of table it was.

Mosconi also ran 589 and 608 in practice on a 9' table.

doubletrouble
06-24-2011, 09:50 AM
had they had video back in the day, imagine mosconi's 15 championships. master. record high ball on 4x8 and 5x10.

OneIron
06-24-2011, 10:16 AM
I saw Mosconi in person at an exhibition match in his later years. He was an absolutely amazing player. Looked incapable of making a mistake.

OneIron
06-24-2011, 10:20 AM
From Wikipedia: "Mosconi set the world record by running 526 consecutive balls without a miss during a straight pool exhibition in Springfield, Ohio on March 19–20, 1954. To this day the record has not been toppled and many speculate it may never be bested.[8][9] A handwritten and notarized affidavit[10] with the signatures of more than 35 eyewitnesses exists as proof of this feat.

The record was set on a 4 × 8 foot Brunswick table with 4 7/8 inch pockets at the East High Billiard Club. Today's standard for tables may be considered more difficult to play on than this exhibition table in the sense that longer shots are required (today's standard tables are 9 x 4 1/2 ft) with 4 1/2 to 4 3/4 inch pockets, but today's tables may be considered easier to play on in the sense that there is more room for the balls to spread, creating unfettered shots. Mosconi competed successfully on 4 1/2 × 9 and 5 x 10 ft tables. The 526-ball record just happened to be on a 4 × 8 ft table, a size seldom used in professional play, but used for the billiard club exhibition that day. In fact, the room owner expected the exhibition to take place on the room's 9 foot table. That table was not a Brunswick, so Willie was required to play on one of the Brunswick 8 foot tables."

I have always heard that he didn't miss during this exhibition. He simply stopped shooting. Is that true?

Winston846
06-24-2011, 10:28 AM
From Wikipedia: "Mosconi set the world record by running 526 consecutive balls without a miss during a straight pool exhibition in Springfield, Ohio on March 19–20, 1954. To this day the record has not been toppled and many speculate it may never be bested.[8][9] A handwritten and notarized affidavit[10] with the signatures of more than 35 eyewitnesses exists as proof of this feat.

The record was set on a 4 × 8 foot Brunswick table with 4 7/8 inch pockets at the East High Billiard Club. Today's standard for tables may be considered more difficult to play on than this exhibition table in the sense that longer shots are required (today's standard tables are 9 x 4 1/2 ft) with 4 1/2 to 4 3/4 inch pockets, but today's tables may be considered easier to play on in the sense that there is more room for the balls to spread, creating unfettered shots. Mosconi competed successfully on 4 1/2 × 9 and 5 x 10 ft tables. The 526-ball record just happened to be on a 4 × 8 ft table, a size seldom used in professional play, but used for the billiard club exhibition that day. In fact, the room owner expected the exhibition to take place on the room's 9 foot table. That table was not a Brunswick, so Willie was required to play on one of the Brunswick 8 foot tables."

I have always heard that he didn't miss during this exhibition. He simply stopped shooting. Is that true?

He missed. More on that story here...
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=198958

alstl
06-24-2011, 10:31 AM
If it is broken I hope it is on video. Regardless of the equipment it is tough to accomplish. Bigger pockets also = easier to scratch.

If somebody put up a $1 million dollar reward for a video of 527 balls the record would fall. At the same time, if you offered Mosconi $1 million dollars to break his own record he would have done it.

LAlouie
06-24-2011, 10:36 AM
Pros don't miss. And pros don't miss when they get good position. A smaller table also means a crowded table. And they weren't playing with aramith balls(or whatever they use today). Mosconi did enough on 9'ers to solidify his record on the 8'er.

To me,,,playing with cr@ppy balls, on mud cloth, and smaller table requires an effort equal to if not more than fast cloth, aramith balls, and bigger table. Also, don't forget, you play 14.1 the way it should be played and you're playing in the front half of the table anyway, not the FULL table, so the idea that a larger tables makes a difference is totally negated by crafty play. So yeah, I'd like to see someone break the record with the same equipment that Mosconi played with...EXACTLY the same equipment.

OneIron
06-24-2011, 10:39 AM
I believe a straight pool exhibition tour could be a winner mainly because it appeals to the older crowd who are willing and able to part with some cash.

Eddie Felson: "This ain't pool. This is for bangers. Straight pool is pool. This is like hand-ball, or cribbage, or something. Straight pool, you gotta be a real surgeon to get 'em, you know? It's all finesse. Now, every thing is nine-ball, 'cause it's fast, good for T.V., good for a lot of break shots... Oh, well. What the hell. Checkers sells more than chess".

jay helfert
06-24-2011, 10:41 AM
If someone breaks Mosconi's record on any table I would be first to applaud the feat. There has been a lot of Straight Pool played since 1954 and only once (Thomas Engert's 491) has anyone come close. 8', 9', makes no difference to me. It wouldn't be easy to do if you had all the best 14.1 players in the world competing on 8' tables with similar sized pockets. In fact I'd bet against it if they played all day for a week, each having their own table to shoot on.

Winston846
06-24-2011, 10:43 AM
Pros don't miss. And pros don't miss when they get good position.

Like us, they're human, and yes, they do on occasion miss. Just nowhere near as often as we do.

In a conversation about golf, someone once described to me the difference between an amateur and a pro as being that the pro doesn't necessarily make more great shots than the amateur, just far fewer bad ones. I think the same can be said about pool.

OneIron
06-24-2011, 10:44 AM
He missed. More on that story here...
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=198958

Thanks for that. It's a shame there's no video of that run. That would be priceless! :cool:

OneIron
06-24-2011, 10:47 AM
If someone breaks Mosconi's record on any table I would be first to applaud the feat. There has been a lot of Straight Pool played since 1954 and only once (Thomas Engert's 491) has anyone come close. 8', 9', makes no difference to me. It would't be easy to do if you had all the best 14.1 players in the world competing on 8' tables with similar sized pockets. In fact I'd bet against it if they played all day for a week, each having their own table to shoot on.

May get some disagreements here but I think, like golf, the equipment in pool is way better now than it was in Mosconi's era.

DogsPlayingPool
06-24-2011, 11:36 AM
I'm not so inclined to dismiss Mosconi's feat because it was during an exhibition rather than a match - and comparing it to records broken during practice. Those exhibitions Mosconi put on were way more akin to a match than to "practice", performances put on in front of many people where there was definite pressure to perform. Besides, how often is a run of 527 balls even possible in competition? Back in Mosconi's day they would hold challenge matches to 1,000 points or more but even these were exhibitions somewhat, not actual tournament competitions. So any shot at the record would almost have to be an "exhibition". To me a record made in practice, even if recorded, would not quite qualify.

One of the things that makes Mosconi's record of 526 so distinctive is that it goes hand in hand with his record of 15. :grin:

Mosconi was the man when I was a kid so his record is admittedly revered by me. But I also understand that records, almost by definition, get broken eventually. On the one hand I'd like the record to stand longer but on the other hand, perhaps someone breaking it will revive straight pool as the true championship game, and I'm all in favor of that.

A corollary question I think would be interesting is: If straight pool had remained the championship game all these years, do you think the record would have been broken by now? Consider that all these race to 100 Challenge matches of 9 ball and 10 ball would instead have been 14.1 games to 2,000 or more points.

Bobby
06-24-2011, 11:51 AM
I'm not so inclined to dismiss Mosconi's feat because it was during an exhibition rather than a match - and comparing it to records broken during practice. Those exhibitions Mosconi put on were way more akin to a match than to "practice", performances put on in front of many people where there was definite pressure to perform. Besides, how often is a run of 527 balls even possible in competition? Back in Mosconi's day they would hold challenge matches to 1,000 points or more but even these were exhibitions somewhat, not actual tournament competitions. So any shot at the record would almost have to be an "exhibition". To me a record made in practice, even if recorded, would not quite qualify.

One of the things that makes Mosconi's record of 526 so distinctive is that it goes hand in hand with his record of 15. :grin:

Mosconi was the man when I was a kid so his record is admittedly revered by me. But I also understand that records, almost by definition, get broken eventually. On the one hand I'd like the record to stand longer but on the other hand, perhaps someone breaking it will revive straight pool as the true championship game, and I'm all in favor of that.

A corollary question I think would be interesting is: If straight pool had remained the championship game all these years, do you think the record would have been broken by now? Consider that all these race to 100 Challenge matches of 9 ball and 10 ball would instead have been 14.1 games to 2,000 or more points.

I think that if 14.1 had remained the main game all these years that there's a chance that his record might have been beaten in practice but probably not in an exhibition....I really believe there's much more pressure in an exhibition than in practice which makes Mosconi's 526 very special. Mosconi himself said he ran 589 and 608 in practice (on a 9ft table) but he didn't seem nearly particularly proud of those feats as he is of his 526 because those were in solo practice as opposed to the 526 being an exhibition run.

peteypooldude
06-24-2011, 02:42 PM
I see nothing wrong with a player breaking a record if they are capable.
And I think some are.
Absolutely they should be shooting at it IMO

LAlouie
06-24-2011, 02:51 PM
Like us, they're human, and yes, they do on occasion miss. Just nowhere near as often as we do.

In a conversation about golf, someone once described to me the difference between an amateur and a pro as being that the pro doesn't necessarily make more great shots than the amateur, just far fewer bad ones. I think the same can be said about pool.

You're missing my point, but it's understandable. I wasn't making myself clear. My point "pros don't miss" was in answer to the implication that he'll miss more on a 9' table. When someone says Mosconi played on an 8 footer not 9, he is implying that the bigger table means more misses. My whole post was devoted to dispelling that so called "advantage". 8 to 9 is miniscule but more importantly, the game of 14.1, to a player like Mosconi, is all played on HALF the table ie 4.5x4.5, and also great position players get close to the ball...there are no long shots. Bigger tables are more important in 9ball, where shots are long and sometimes tough. That is not, however, the essense of 14.1. 14.1 is about position play(sometimes measured in fractions) and smart choices which I contend is tougher on a smaller table because smaller tables have more clutter.

alstl
06-24-2011, 03:18 PM
If someone breaks Mosconi's record on any table I would be first to applaud the feat. There has been a lot of Straight Pool played since 1954 and only once (Thomas Engert's 491) has anyone come close. 8', 9', makes no difference to me. It wouldn't be easy to do if you had all the best 14.1 players in the world competing on 8' tables with similar sized pockets. In fact I'd bet against it if they played all day for a week, each having their own table to shoot on.

If you put Mosconi in that hypothetical room full of the best 14.1 players and took odds on who would have the high run at the end of the week, I suspect a lot of money would be on Willie. If you put them on the old worsted cloth and handed them the same old style of cue Mosconi used, my money is all over Mosconi.


That's not intended to disrespect todays great players but 14.1 is what Mosconi did day after day in those exhibitions for Brunswick.

LAlouie
06-24-2011, 07:12 PM
Gotta agree with Jay. It almost doesn't matter how it's done. IT's not the table or pocket size...these guys are pros, man. It'll all come down to focusing on 38 racks which is a feat in itself. When you get that high, it's lapse of concentration that'll do you in.

manwon
06-24-2011, 07:23 PM
I don't know how much discussion there has been about Willie Mosconi's world record but I know there's been plenty.

I was just wondering if it would be fair or even appropriate if a 4 x 8 table should be set up with 4 7/8" pockets, like the one Willie used to make the world record that still holds to today?

Many of today's tables have much narrower pockets than this and I'm sure it inhibits todays pocket billiard 14:1 specialists from beating that record.

Would you like to see the world record broken using the same equipment?
Would you prefer seeing the world record broken using today's larger tables with the 4 7/8" pockets?
Or would you prefer to never see Willie's record broken.

Personally, I would like to see the record broken, based upon someone using equipment similar to which Willie played on.

JoeyA



Joey where did you get the information about the pocket size of the 4x8?

This has been some information I have been looking for a long time, is there a referance to this some where?

Thanks Craig

JoeyA
06-25-2011, 07:38 AM
Joey where did you get the information about the pocket size of the 4x8?

This has been some information I have been looking for a long time, is there a referance to this some where?

Thanks Craig

Craig,
It has been mentioned by a few different posters. I don't know the original source but it is also mentioned at WikiPedia. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Mosconi)

JoeyA
06-25-2011, 08:00 AM
Joey where did you get the information about the pocket size of the 4x8?

This has been some information I have been looking for a long time, is there a referance to this some where?

Thanks Craig

Speaking of WikiPedia, there is a WikiPedia getogether at ten cities across the United States, TODAY: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wiknic

spliced
06-25-2011, 08:23 AM
Would the record still count if there were no spectators but the run was recorded on video?

Curly Howard
06-25-2011, 09:26 AM
The mistake made was if they had bought one of these million dollar policies paid to who ever runs over 526, and put that up for a challenge at all the major pro tour events, it could have kicked the game into a new level. And Efren would have done it in the first year after he learned how to play the game. He was running 200 when he did not have a clue how to set up a break shot.

Willie was the greatest ball runner in his era, but all records, are made, to be broken.

I think Mosconi has a high run of over 400 on a 5x10 with felt correct?? was a question. Answer.

The high run was Crane first in 1939 on a 10', 309, then willie at 365, then they went to 9' tables. We have never used felt. It is cloth. Willies 10' run was on Simonis #1, which is like 760 in speed used today, which is about 15% faster than 860.

Willies HR on a 10' was using simoinis #1, which is thinner and about 15% faster than 860. After WWII, simonis was no longer imported into the usa, and the only time it was used, was during the world championship in NYC, when they brought in a couple of bolts just for that event. All the other tournaments were on what you call today, house cloth, thicker and slower than simonis.

So when Willie did a different exhibition every day, he would have used what that local installer had in stock, and it would have always been, house cloth. The 14.1 players, actually liked the slower cloth better, as it was easier to play close up position better, where a faster cloth could let the cue ball run long and off angle on you. Mike Sigel, came up on the slow cloth, and even talked the IPT into using it, so it would give him the edge.

Willies 526 run, was not on simonis, there was none around for him to use. Simonis did not come back into the usa for another 30 years after willies Hr.

I have a friend, very knowledgeable, a pro, who got on the table right after his run, and checked it out, and told me the pockets were 5 l/2". Bucket pockets, and that would make sense, Willie would choose the table to play on, that had the largest easiest pockets. It was a show, and it featured him making a 100 ball run, which he did, just about every show, sometimes you might see 200 or more. The pocket size was was never discussed or mentioned over the years, but the actual size was known and it floated around. Recently, somebody wrote in the record you see on the net the pockets were pro cut, I dont believe it, that was done, just to purify the run and the record, probably by Brunswick.

A 300 ball run, is fantastic, and 300 on a 10' table with 4 l/2" pockets, I think would be greater than 526 on an 8' table with 5 l/2" pockets, that is why they covered that one up.

Pocket sizes have varied widely over the years from 4 l/2" in Greenleafs era, where Brunswick started making 5 l/2" for the general public to make the game easier for them. So why would not, willie use the easiest table, who would know?

A decade ago, tables were sold with two choices, 4 3/4" pro cut, or 5" for the mom and pop crowd. Today, to save money, your only choice is pro cut, or then shim them to be tighter. On the pro tours, they ranged in modern times to any where from 4 3/4", 4 l/2", 4/ 3/4", to Gabriel 5". Imagine Golf, playing a different size hole every week, that is now nuts these pockets sizes are, since we dont have any one organization controling this.

I know, that throws a monkey wrench in the story, but that's the truth, so dont shoot your messenger here. I have nothing but the greatest respect for Willie Mosconi, the greatest champion of his time.

JoeyA
06-25-2011, 09:48 AM
[QUOTE=Curly Howard;3075339]The mistake made was if they had bought one of these million dollar policies paid to who ever runs over 526, and put that up for a challenge at all the major pro tour events, it could have kicked the game into a new level. And Efren would have done it in the first year after he learned how to play the game. He was running 200 when he did not have a clue how to set up a break shot.

Willie was the greatest ball runner in his era, but all records, are made, to be broken.

I think Mosconi has a high run of over 400 on a 5x10 with felt correct?? was a question. Answer.

The high run was Crane first in 1939 on a 10', 309, then willie at 365, then they went to 9' tables. We have never used felt. It is cloth. Willies 10' run was on Simonis #1, which is like 760 in speed used today, which is about 15% faster than 860.

Willies HR on a 10' was using simoinis #1, which is like 760 used today, which is thinner and about 15% faster than 860. After WWII, simonis was no longer imported into the usa, and the only time it was used, was during the world championship in NYC, when they brought in a couple of bolts just for that event. All the other tournaments were on what you call today, house cloth, thicker and slower than simonis.

So when Willie did a different exhibition every day, he would have used what that local installer had in stock, and it would have always been, house cloth. The 14.1 players, actually liked the slower cloth better, as it was easier to play close up position better, where a faster cloth could let the cue ball run long and off angle on you. Mike Sigel, came up on the slow cloth, and even talked the IPT into using it, so it would give him the edge.

Willies 526 run, was not on simonis, there was none around for him to use. Simonis did not come back into the usa for another 30 years after willies Hr.

I have a friend, very knowledgeable, who got on the table right after his run, and checked it out, and told me the pockets were 5 l/2". Bucket pockets, and that would make sense, Willie would choose the table to play on, that had the largest easiest pockets. It was a show, and it featured him making a 100 ball run, which he did, just about every show, sometimes you might see 200 or more. The pocket size was was never discussed or mentioned, but the actual size was known and it floated around. Recently, somebody wrote in the record you see on the net the pockets were pro cut, I dont believe it, that was done, just to purify the run and the record, probably by Brunswick.

A 300 ball run, is fantastic, and 300 on a 10' table with 4 l/2" pockets, I think would be greater than 526 on an 8' table with 5 l/2" pockets, that is why they covered that one up.

I know, that throws a monkey wrench in the story, but that's the truth, so dont shoot your messenger here. I have nothing but the greatest respect for Willie Mosconi, the greatest champion of his time.[/QUOT

I won't shoot you but I would like to get the story straight about the size of the pockets. There's a MONSTER DIFFERENCE between 5 1/2" pockets and 4 7/8" pockets.

Who to believe???

Thanks for the report Curly!

Curly Howard
06-25-2011, 09:54 AM
Believe who ever you wish to, I really dont care. Go with what Brunswicks feeds you, then you will be happy. Any time you break news like this, of course, nobody is going to believe you, all you get for this, is ridicule and abuse.

JoeyA
06-25-2011, 10:30 AM
Believe who ever you wish to, I really dont care. Go with what Brunswicks feeds you, then you will be happy. Any time you break news like this, of course, nobody is going to believe you, all you get for this, is ridicule and abuse.

Sorry Curly. I think you got my post wrong. I'm not giving you ridicule or abuse.

I'm glad to hear the difference of opinion and would just like to have some verifiable source for the width of the pockets.

manwon
06-25-2011, 10:32 AM
Craig,
It has been mentioned by a few different posters. I don't know the original source but it is also mentioned at WikiPedia. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Mosconi)



Thanks Joey.

Have a good day

Curly Howard
06-25-2011, 11:17 AM
Believe who ever you wish to, I really dont care. Go with what Brunswicks feeds you, then you will be happy. Any time you break news like this, of course, nobody is going to believe you, all you get for this, is ridicule and abuse.



Of course, I did not mean you, for you just asked the question. It will be others, who will do this. So many in the pool world, when they see something, they dont understand, or it is different from what they think they know, they dont examine and study it, they just kill it on the spot, then they are happy and content.

Brunswick for decades pushed the Mosconi HR record, because he was a paid staff player, and selling him, and his records, meant more profits for them. They helped to hide and bury the real high run of Michael Eufemia, which is 625 on a 9' table. If you dont believe me, just ask Ray Martin, he will tell you it is so. So covering up the size of the pockets, had to be them as well. I dont think Flo had anything to do with that.

Exhibition Hr's are soft, a high run in a pro tournament, I am more impressed with. But, they made these guys quit when they got to 125 and later 150. The Sigel 150 at the Roosevelt, he was so in the zone, so perfect, if they had left him alone and just kept racking, he might have ran 600 that night. And that is what they should have done, let them keep going past 150, and the rest of the field, continued around the one man show. And paid a million bucks for the first to go past 526, this could still be done today, if a real new tour comes back. That would be one heck of an attraction. It could be a 9 ball event, and have a challenge table in the back just for the one man straight pool challenge, and have a camera rolling on every challenge, which the player has to buy into, to have a chance at the big bucks. You could pay out a bonus, when one goes over 150, 300, or 400. It could help bring back this great game, that is now all but dead, out side of the NE and Chicago areas. The challenge fees could help pay for the insurance policy. If you pay your fee, run 3 and miss, you can ante up, try again and again.

It becomes hard to compare some of the things done back in the day, to what is being played with now.

The high run racks in 9 ball is only nine. Only 3 people have done it, most feel, its much higher than this. But in recent years, nobody could break the record, because they went to alternating racks, so your high run then, could only be one.

Winston846
06-25-2011, 02:40 PM
The high run racks in 9 ball is only nine. Only 3 people have done it, most feel, its much higher than this. But in recent years, nobody could break the record, because they went to alternating racks, so your high run then, could only be one.

Earl Strickland once ran 11 racks in a tournament for a $1,000,000 prize.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Strickland

I myself once ran 6 racks - and I'd have a VERY hard time believing that was only within 3 of the record.

peteypooldude
06-25-2011, 02:52 PM
Earl Strickland once ran 11 racks in a tournament for a $1,000,000 prize.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Strickland

I myself once ran 6 racks - and I'd have a VERY hard time believing that was only within 3 of the record.

I have seen Shannon Daulton run a bunch of 7 packs. I have also seen
him run a set in 9 ball. Race to 9
Pretty tough action

Nick B
06-25-2011, 03:09 PM
Don't take Wiki as the last word. In 15 seconds I could make the pockets read 22 inches. Generally the data is correct...but not always.

Nick

Curly Howard
06-25-2011, 03:19 PM
Earl Strickland once ran 11 racks in a tournament for a $1,000,000 prize.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Strickland

I myself once ran 6 racks - and I'd have a VERY hard time believing that was only within 3 of the record.



The 3 that ran the 9 racks are luat, medina, immonen, believe it. Why would I lie? I told you, that this one would be hard to handle.

Earl never ran 11 racks or got a mil, he ran a couple, most were short racks, combos in early a few 9's on the break, and it was probably a set up con, which was not totally filmed, and the company that put up the money, knew they were being hustled by Cj and earl, who probably cut it up betweeen them, paid earl off with something like 150K I heard, just to stay out of court. Earl took the money and ran, or at least, that was the story I heard, so its 2nd hand, and I wont vouch for it being true. It appears that one, was about as phony as the first challenge of champions, when sigel got every one to bet on the 20 to 1 Lebron, then the entire field bet on him and went into the tank.

In the world of pool and gamblers and hustlers there are always two stories, the one for the press, and the real story, you usually get from me.

deanoc
06-25-2011, 03:26 PM
same table,balls cloth and pockets and i bet no one runs 400 balls in the first month
i think todays cloth and balls make the game easier
it would be harder to break the balls out and easier to get hooked on the smaller table
just my guess

as far as the earl story,what about the 200 or so witnesses

u12armresl
06-25-2011, 05:49 PM
If they let him run past 150 in the tournament, isn't it just like practicing or "brunswick HR's" the match ends at 150 anything past that is no longer a tournament run. If you played a match to 500 points then someone could run 500.

Of course, I did not mean you, for you just asked the question. It will be others, who will do this. So many in the pool world, when they see something, they dont understand, or it is different from what they think they know, they dont examine and study it, they just kill it on the spot, then they are happy and content.

Brunswick for decades pushed the Mosconi HR record, because he was a paid staff player, and selling him, and his records, meant more profits for them. They helped to hide and bury the real high run of Michael Eufemia, which is 625 on a 9' table. If you dont believe me, just ask Ray Martin, he will tell you it is so. So covering up the size of the pockets, had to be them as well. I dont think Flo had anything to do with that.

Exhibition Hr's are soft, a high run in a pro tournament, I am more impressed with. But, they made these guys quit when they got to 125 and later 150. The Sigel 150 at the Roosevelt, he was so in the zone, so perfect, if they had left him alone and just kept racking, he might have ran 600 that night. And that is what they should have done, let them keep going past 150, and the rest of the field, continued around the one man show. And paid a million bucks for the first to go past 526, this could still be done today, if a real new tour comes back. That would be one heck of an attraction. It could be a 9 ball event, and have a challenge table in the back just for the one man straight pool challenge, and have a camera rolling on every challenge, which the player has to buy into, to have a chance at the big bucks. You could pay out a bonus, when one goes over 150, 300, or 400. It could help bring back this great game, that is now all but dead, out side of the NE and Chicago areas. The challenge fees could help pay for the insurance policy. If you pay your fee, run 3 and miss, you can ante up, try again and again.

It becomes hard to compare some of the things done back in the day, to what is being played with now.

The high run racks in 9 ball is only nine. Only 3 people have done it, most feel, its much higher than this. But in recent years, nobody could break the record, because they went to alternating racks, so your high run then, could only be one.

u12armresl
06-25-2011, 05:52 PM
So the high run in the Archer match with the table being autographed doesn't count?

Guess that one doesn't count in your book as it was in a state with too many vowels or something.

The 3 that ran the 9 racks are luat, medina, immonen, believe it. Why would I lie? I told you, that this one would be hard to handle.

Earl never ran 11 racks or got a mil, he ran a couple, most were short racks, combos in early a few 9's on the break, and it was probably a set up con, which was not totally filmed, and the company that put up the money, knew they were being hustled by Cj and earl, who probably cut it up betweeen them, paid earl off with something like 150K I heard, just to stay out of court. Earl took the money and ran, or at least, that was the story I heard, so its 2nd hand, and I wont vouch for it being true. It appears that one, was about as phony as the first challenge of champions, when sigel got every one to bet on the 20 to 1 Lebron, then the entire field bet on him and went into the tank.

In the world of pool and gamblers and hustlers there are always two stories, the one for the press, and the real story, you usually get from me.

Rick S.
06-25-2011, 06:30 PM
The 3 that ran the 9 racks are luat, medina, immonen, believe it. Why would I lie? I told you, that this one would be hard to handle.

Earl never ran 11 racks or got a mil, he ran a couple, most were short racks, combos in early a few 9's on the break, and it was probably a set up con, which was not totally filmed, and the company that put up the money, knew they were being hustled by Cj and earl, who probably cut it up betweeen them, paid earl off with something like 150K I heard, just to stay out of court. Earl took the money and ran, or at least, that was the story I heard, so its 2nd hand, and I wont vouch for it being true.

You heard wrong.

jay helfert
06-25-2011, 07:45 PM
The 3 that ran the 9 racks are luat, medina, immonen, believe it. Why would I lie? I told you, that this one would be hard to handle.

Earl never ran 11 racks or got a mil, he ran a couple, most were short racks, combos in early a few 9's on the break, and it was probably a set up con, which was not totally filmed, and the company that put up the money, knew they were being hustled by Cj and earl, who probably cut it up betweeen them, paid earl off with something like 150K I heard, just to stay out of court. Earl took the money and ran, or at least, that was the story I heard, so its 2nd hand, and I wont vouch for it being true. It appears that one, was about as phony as the first challenge of champions, when sigel got every one to bet on the 20 to 1 Lebron, then the entire field bet on him and went into the tank.

In the world of pool and gamblers and hustlers there are always two stories, the one for the press, and the real story, you usually get from me.

Slow down Curly. You're losing credibility fast. There are people on here who were there when Earl ran ELEVEN racks! I'm one of them, the tournament director no less. There must have been fifty people watching this match from start to finish and they all signed a letter attesting Earl's feat afterward. Probably the main reason he finally got a settlement from the insurance company. How could they fade all those people coming into court and testifying that they saw the whole thing.

First of all, it was not a con concocted by CJ and Earl! CJ may have been more surprised than anyone. He wanted the Million Dollar Challenge to last for a long time, years even. None of us ever expected anyone to run ten racks, especially on the tough tables at CJ's. Earl did make two nine balls on the break in the first five games. He had the break wired on that particular table. After five games they called me in to rack the balls. He never made another nine ball on the break. He did get it going close to the hole a couple of times though. Earl flat ran out from everywhere! And in the final game he made the most ridiculous one-nine combo you (and me) ever saw! The last five racks were recorded on video and CJ has the tape, which may be coming out soon with the whole story.

As far as the Challenge of Champions is concerned, guess who the TD was on that one? Right again, good old Jay. I will have to say something was rotten in Denmark on that one. I won't deny it. Finally, I grew up in Dayton, close to High St. Billiards in Springfield where Mosconi made his run. I was in that poolroom a couple of times in the 60's and even played on the same table. It was a typical over-sized 4x8 that was popular in Midwestern poolrooms back then. Not the toughest table in the world, but not the easiest either. Those old boxes had straight cut pockets with fairly deep shelves. I'm guessing the pocket openings were just under 5". You had to hit the pockets though or the ball wasn't going in. Shooting down the rail was probably easier than most tourney tables in use today, but out on the table you had to make a clean shot.

In my opinion if you absolutely duplicated the same conditions (cloth, pockets, balls, etc.) and let the best players today start with BIH, no one would run over 500 balls for a long, long time. The balls tended to stay clustered and you had to break them out a few at a time. A hundred ball run was a tremendous feat back then. Only the very best 14.1 players of that era could make runs like that consistently. The Mosconi's, Crane's, Caras' and Cranfield's. In the major 14.1 championships of that era, there would only be a few hundred ball runs. And they were playing a Round Robin format, with many matches spread over a period of weeks.

Like someone else said, Willie used to run 100 balls every day. He was truly one of a kind, a Straight Pool freak. I've seen two players in my lifetime who approached his level of ability at 14.1. Mizerak and Sigel! That's it. And they couldn't control the cue ball quite as well as Willie, or shoot as straight either. He was pissed if he missed position by half and inch! And if he missed one ball a day, it was a bad day. Lassiter was like that playing 9-Ball. There's a good reason why Mosconi, Lassiter and Strickland are legendary players. They all did things no one else could do, under match conditions no less.

Scott Lee
06-25-2011, 11:28 PM
Eufemia's alleged 625 could never be verified...Mosconi's 526 was. Babe Cranfield also is alleged to have run 600+, but it was never able to verified officially. Luther Lassiter ran 150 five matches in a row...that's 750 balls, and it was witnessed in Johnston City.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Brunswick for decades pushed the Mosconi HR record, because he was a paid staff player, and selling him, and his records, meant more profits for them. They helped to hide and bury the real high run of Michael Eufemia, which is 625 on a 9' table. If you dont believe me, just ask Ray Martin, he will tell you it is so. So covering up the size of the pockets, had to be them as well. I dont think Flo had anything to do with that.

Bobby
06-25-2011, 11:46 PM
Luther Lassiter ran 150 five matches in a row...that's 750 balls, and it was witnessed in Johnston City.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Lassiter's feat may be the most impressive of all! That's 750 points without a miss in competition.

DogsPlayingPool
06-25-2011, 11:56 PM
Lassiter's feat may be the most impressive of all! That's 750 points without a miss in competition.

Just to be clear, it was 750 without a miss or safety? No opening safety play, just five outs in a row off the opening break? Hell of a lagger too, huh? :grin-square: Wowzer.

Out of curiosity, anyone know who the opponents were?

jay helfert
06-26-2011, 02:56 AM
Eufemia's alleged 625 could never be verified...Mosconi's 526 was. Babe Cranfield also is alleged to have run 600+, but it was never able to verified officially. Luther Lassiter ran 150 five matches in a row...that's 750 balls, and it was witnessed in Johnston City.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Love ya Scott, but the JC 14.1 matches were 125 points. Lassiter did consistently make 90+ runs match after match. He was by far the best Straight Pool player there. And Crane came to many of them also. So did Balsis. I personally watched Lassiter post 90+ runs in about five or six matches in a row. He blew everyone out quick. Still I would pick Mosconi over Lassiter at their peaks. Willie intimidated everyone!

freddy the beard
06-26-2011, 04:39 AM
Love ya Scott, but the JC 14.1 matches were 125 points. Lassiter did consistently make 90+ runs match after match. He was by far the best Straight Pool player there. And Crane came to many of them also. So did Balsis. I personally watched Lassiter post 90+ runs in about five or six matches in a row. He blew everyone out quick. Still I would pick Mosconi over Lassiter at their peaks. Willie intimidated everyone!

I was a Johnston City every year but the first. I dont recall Wimpy ever running the whole game out from the break, let alone doing it 5 times in a row. Plus the matches of 14.1 were usually only 125 pts. I know that they changed it to 150 points for at least one year because Balsis ran 150 and out on Crane down there. Remember Crane had run 150 and out on Balsis at the US Open in Chicago. This was their next meeting which prompted Jersey Red to say, "No point in them two playing anymore, they should just lag for the break."

Willie Mosconi was the greatest I ever saw. Willie gave three exhibitions at my neighborhood pool room, The Dragon Cue, in Chicago's Chinatown. Mosconi played three 200-point games in a three-day period. Willie ran 200 and out the first game he played. He played the owner's daughter, Helen Wing. When Mosconi reached 200 points, he stopped shooting and gave a trick-shot exhibition. The next day Mosconi ran 200 and out again, and again stopped shooting at 200. He had played the owner, Jimmy Wing. The third day, I was his opponent. I gave him a modicum of trouble. The score was 40 to 39 when Mosconi ran 160 and out on me. Then more trick shots— which he never missed. The games were played on 4 1/2' x 9' Brunswick Anniversary Tables with 5" pockets.


Beard

Ed Wiggins
06-26-2011, 07:22 AM
I was a Johnston City every year but the first. I dont recall Wimpy ever running the whole game out from the break, let alone doing it 5 times in a row. Plus the matches of 14.1 were usually only 125 pts. I know that they changed it to 150 points for at least one year because Balsis ran 150 and out on Crane down there. Remember Crane had run 150 and out on Balsis at the US Open in Chicago. This was their next meeting which prompted Jersey Red to say, "No point in them two playing anymore, they should just lag for the break."

Beard

That was in 1966.
Balsis ran 150 from the break. And Crane was complaining that the tables were too easy.
They may have been. There were many long runs. In the Eddie Kelly-Nick Vacchiano match, one of them ran 100 and the other ran 99.
Crane's next match was against Ed Kelly, and I bet on Kelly because Crane was still fuming.
Well, Kelly broke and Crane ran 150!!
It was a good year for Balsis, who won the all around title.
45 years ago? Good Grief!


Ed

AtLarge
06-26-2011, 09:41 AM
.......my mistake........

Curly Howard
06-26-2011, 09:45 AM
Willie was the greatest 14.1 player of all time, for well over a decade, he was virtually unbeatable. I would rank Greenleaf 2nd, his record, is almost the same and as good as Willies. Both dominated their era's, that is what you focus on.

smashmouth
06-26-2011, 11:13 AM
Slow down Curly. You're losing credibility fast. There are people on here who were there when Earl ran ELEVEN racks! I'm one of them, the tournament director no less. There must have been fifty people watching this match from start to finish and they all signed a letter attesting Earl's feat afterward. Probably the main reason he finally got a settlement from the insurance company. How could they fade all those people coming into court and testifying that they saw the whole thing.

First of all, it was not a con concocted by CJ and Earl! CJ may have been more surprised than anyone. He wanted the Million Dollar Challenge to last for a long time, years even. None of us ever expected anyone to run ten racks, especially on the tough tables at CJ's. Earl did make two nine balls on the break in the first five games. He had the break wired on that particular table. After five games they called me in to rack the balls. He never made another nine ball on the break. He did get it going close to the hole a couple of times though. Earl flat ran out from everywhere! And in the final game he made the most ridiculous one-nine combo you (and me) ever saw! The last five racks were recorded on video and CJ has the tape, which may be coming out soon with the whole story.

As far as the Challenge of Champions is concerned, guess who the TD was on that one? Right again, good old Jay. I will have to say something was rotten in Denmark on that one. I won't deny it. Finally, I grew up in Dayton, close to High St. Billiards in Springfield where Mosconi made his run. I was in that poolroom a couple of times in the 60's and even played on the same table. It was a typical over-sized 4x8 that was popular in Midwestern poolrooms back then. Not the toughest table in the world, but not the easiest either. Those old boxes had straight cut pockets with fairly deep shelves. I'm guessing the pocket openings were just under 5". You had to hit the pockets though or the ball wasn't going in. Shooting down the rail was probably easier than most tourney tables in use today, but out on the table you had to make a clean shot.

In my opinion if you absolutely duplicated the same conditions (cloth, pockets, balls, etc.) and let the best players today start with BIH, no one would run over 500 balls for a long, long time. The balls tended to stay clustered and you had to break them out a few at a time. A hundred ball run was a tremendous feat back then. Only the very best 14.1 players of that era could make runs like that consistently. The Mosconi's, Crane's, Caras' and Cranfield's. In the major 14.1 championships of that era, there would only be a few hundred ball runs. And they were playing a Round Robin format, with many matches spread over a period of weeks.

Like someone else said, Willie used to run 100 balls every day. He was truly one of a kind, a Straight Pool freak. I've seen two players in my lifetime who approached his level of ability at 14.1. Mizerak and Sigel! That's it. And they couldn't control the cue ball quite as well as Willie, or shoot as straight either. He was pissed if he missed position by half and inch! And if he missed one ball a day, it was a bad day. Lassiter was like that playing 9-Ball. There's a good reason why Mosconi, Lassiter and Strickland are legendary players. They all did things no one else could do, under match conditions no less.

well TD or not, consider the possibility that you just might not be privy to the whole truth

some facts here have always seemed fishy to me...

-Earl was seen "examining" the table hours before the match
-he hits 2/5 nines during rack your own yet 0-6 after
-10 racks in a row was and still is a near impossibility, the unlikely odds are what allowed CJ to get the policy in the first place
-the near mythical feat happened on the first event, I can't remember a time before that in a pro tourney and maybe once or twice since

having said that, I'm sure the odds were calculated without adjusting for players going for racks and avoiding safeties which completely changes the numbers, and if anyone on the planet could do this it would have been Earl

Curly Howard
06-26-2011, 11:26 AM
You had the same TD, on the two biggest cons in the game, what does that tell you about the TD? Where does his creditability go? Was not he also the TD out in Arizona where he was supposed to protect the field and guarantee the money and every body there got stiffed. Everytime all he says, is, its all their fault, I did nothing wrong. Man I hear that line on cops on the TV. I have to ask, what kind of TD is this? He is supposed to insure, everything is fair and legit.

Of course those involved are going to justify it as being as clean as new fallen snow.
You cant run a con, with out the TD getting a piece of the action, just like the ref gets paid off in a fight when the fix is in. Or the Jockeys on a horse race.

If the 10 racks were not filmed, I would not have paid off a dime, and they were not, right there, it stinks. And if it was legit, they would have gone to court and won the million, instead they grabbed the 10 cents on the dollar and ran. That again, I think, says it all, and sums it up.

Earl did not run 10 racks, again, a short combo off the one, or a 9 on the break, is not a run rack. And because I tell the real story, I am now losing my creditability. I love that line.

Mr441
06-26-2011, 12:15 PM
well TD or not, consider the possibility that you just might not be privy to the whole truth

some facts here have always seemed fishy to me...

-Earl was seen "examining" the table hours before the match
-he hits 2/5 nines during rack your own yet 0-6 after
-10 racks in a row was and still is a near impossibility, the unlikely odds are what allowed CJ to get the policy in the first place
-the near mythical feat happened on the first event, I can't remember a time before that in a pro tourney and maybe once or twice since

having said that, I'm sure the odds were calculated without adjusting for players going for racks and avoiding safeties which completely changes the numbers, and if anyone on the planet could do this it would have been Earl

Something that happens several times in a lifetime is not a "near impossibility". If it happened once in say a 100+ years then you could say it's maybe a near impossibility or highly unlikely. But 10+ racks in a row has happened quite a bit, here a just a few I can think of off the top of my head:

Earl's 11 racks
Lassiter's 16 racks
Archer's 13 racks (+2 in the next set so really 15 racks in a row)
Neils Feijien's 15 racks
Scotty Townsend 10+ racks (not sure of the exact number)

And I have seen amateur players who are well under world class speed run 6-7-8 packs before so 10 is certainly not in the realm of "near impossible".

I'm sure McCready, Reyes, Bustamante etc have run 10 consecutive racks in practice before. In fact Reyes ran an 8 pack AND a 9 pack in same tournament! It was in the World 9 ball Championships no less.

jay helfert
06-26-2011, 12:37 PM
You had the same TD, on the two biggest cons in the game, what does that tell you about the TD? Where does his creditability go? Was not he also the TD out in Arizona where he was supposed to protect the field and guarantee the money and every body there got stiffed. Everytime all he says, is, its all their fault, I did nothing wrong. Man I hear that line on cops on the TV. I have to ask, what kind of TD is this? He is supposed to insure, everything is fair and legit.

Of course those involved are going to justify it as being as clean as new fallen snow.
You cant run a con, with out the TD getting a piece of the action, just like the ref gets paid off in a fight when the fix is in. Or the Jockeys on a horse race.

If the 10 racks were not filmed, I would not have paid off a dime, and they were not, right there, it stinks. And if it was legit, they would have gone to court and won the million, instead they grabbed the 10 cents on the dollar and ran. That again, I think, says it all, and sums it up.

Earl did not run 10 racks, again, a short combo off the one, or a 9 on the break, is not a run rack. And because I tell the real story, I am now losing my creditability. I love that line.

You're right Curly. You caught me! I just wish I had been smart enough to bet on Lebron and Earl's ten racks. And you're right again about the tournament in Phoenix. As TD I'm supposed to hold all the money, not the UPA who sanctioned the event :cool:. Excuse me while I barf! Unfortunately I got stiffed too. But through my efforts we (the players and me) have been paid about 85% of the money due us. Get your facts straight before you go making accusations.

Buddy, I'm hired to do a job. that's all. And I do it to the best of my ability. Let me tell you something Mr. Big Mouth, any tournament I ever produced all the money got paid, every last dime. I think you are telling on yourself here. Only a cheater would say things like this because that's how your mind works. What have you done in the pool world besides run your mouth about things you know literally nothing about?

Curly Howard
06-26-2011, 01:30 PM
Expose you?

smashmouth
06-26-2011, 01:47 PM
Something that happens several times in a lifetime is not a "near impossibility". If it happened once in say a 100+ years then you could say it's maybe a near impossibility or highly unlikely. But 10+ racks in a row has happened quite a bit, here a just a few I can think of off the top of my head:

Earl's 11 racks
Lassiter's 16 racks
Archer's 13 racks (+2 in the next set so really 15 racks in a row)
Neils Feijien's 15 racks
Scotty Townsend 10+ racks (not sure of the exact number)

And I have seen amateur players who are well under world class speed run 6-7-8 packs before so 10 is certainly not in the realm of "near impossible".

I'm sure McCready, Reyes, Bustamante etc have run 10 consecutive racks in practice before. In fact Reyes ran an 8 pack AND a 9 pack in same tournament! It was in the World 9 ball Championships no less.

lol, math much?

DogsPlayingPool
06-26-2011, 02:04 PM
...And because I tell the real story, I am now losing my creditability. I love that line.

Dude, you started posting here yesterday. You have no credibility around here to begin with. Can't lose something you don't have.

Curly Howard
06-26-2011, 04:27 PM
Excuse me, where did I ask you, to grant me creditability/

Do I seek it from you, or any one here, no. Do I care, if I get it from you guys or not, no.

This is not the usa senate, where the longer you sit, the more they take you serious and the older you get, the more senile you become.

You can be here, post 10,000 times, and only prove, 10,000 times your an idiot and remove all doubt of that.

Why do I have to apprentice here kissing your arses for a year, before any one takes me serious I now ask you laddie?

You should only be concerned with my words, my message, and not my seniority here. I wont be around much longer, from what I have seen, all this place does, is shut off any new thought and erases it, like they did with Ray Martin. They cant handle, any thing new and fresh. All you want, is somebody telling you, they agree with what you think. If they do that, you love them. If they dont, then you are a bloody arse hole.

Rich93
06-26-2011, 04:50 PM
You had the same TD, on the two biggest cons in the game, what does that tell you about the TD? Where does his creditability go? Was not he also the TD out in Arizona where he was supposed to protect the field and guarantee the money and every body there got stiffed. Everytime all he says, is, its all their fault, I did nothing wrong. Man I hear that line on cops on the TV. I have to ask, what kind of TD is this? He is supposed to insure, everything is fair and legit.

Of course those involved are going to justify it as being as clean as new fallen snow.
You cant run a con, with out the TD getting a piece of the action, just like the ref gets paid off in a fight when the fix is in. Or the Jockeys on a horse race.

If the 10 racks were not filmed, I would not have paid off a dime, and they were not, right there, it stinks. And if it was legit, they would have gone to court and won the million, instead they grabbed the 10 cents on the dollar and ran. That again, I think, says it all, and sums it up.

Earl did not run 10 racks, again, a short combo off the one, or a 9 on the break, is not a run rack. And because I tell the real story, I am now losing my creditability. I love that line.

I don't like doing things behind another's back, so let me just say - I just red-repped you for this, and I also sent a message to AZB asking that you be banned for this kind of libel against the TD.

measureman
06-26-2011, 04:58 PM
Love ya Scott, but the JC 14.1 matches were 125 points. Lassiter did consistently make 90+ runs match after match. He was by far the best Straight Pool player there. And Crane came to many of them also. So did Balsis. I personally watched Lassiter post 90+ runs in about five or six matches in a row. He blew everyone out quick. Still I would pick Mosconi over Lassiter at their peaks. Willie intimidated everyone!

I thought Lassiter would not be intimidated by anyone. Am I wrong on this?

Rich93
06-26-2011, 05:08 PM
Something that happens several times in a lifetime is not a "near impossibility". If it happened once in say a 100+ years then you could say it's maybe a near impossibility or highly unlikely. But 10+ racks in a row has happened quite a bit, here a just a few I can think of off the top of my head:

Earl's 11 racks
Lassiter's 16 racks
Archer's 13 racks (+2 in the next set so really 15 racks in a row)
Neils Feijien's 15 racks
Scotty Townsend 10+ racks (not sure of the exact number)

And I have seen amateur players who are well under world class speed run 6-7-8 packs before so 10 is certainly not in the realm of "near impossible".

I'm sure McCready, Reyes, Bustamante etc have run 10 consecutive racks in practice before. In fact Reyes ran an 8 pack AND a 9 pack in same tournament! It was in the World 9 ball Championships no less.

As it happens, I just watched the hour-long interview with Mika Immonen done by Jim Murnak. He was asked how many racks he's run in a row - 12. He was down 4-0 in some tournament and ran 9 and out, then in the next match he won the lag and ran 3 more.

Mr. Wilson
06-26-2011, 05:30 PM
Excuse me, where did I ask you, to grant me creditability/

Do I seek it from you, or any one here, no. Do I care, if I get it from you guys or not, no.

This is not the usa senate, where the longer you sit, the more they take you serious and the older you get, the more senile you become.

You can be here, post 10,000 times, and only prove, 10,000 times your an idiot and remove all doubt of that.

Why do I have to apprentice here kissing your arses for a year, before any one takes me serious I now ask you laddie?

You should only be concerned with my words, my message, and not my seniority here. I wont be around much longer, from what I have seen, all this place does, is shut off any new thought and erases it, like they did with Ray Martin. They cant handle, any thing new and fresh. All you want, is somebody telling you, they agree with what you think. If they do that, you love them. If they dont, then you are a bloody arse hole.



I deal with enough stooges in the regular works.
You've been here for a whole day and want to rock the boat?

Consider this your warning.

If you want to remain a member of this board, please re-read the rules for posting here.

lfigueroa
06-26-2011, 05:30 PM
I was a Johnston City every year but the first. I dont recall Wimpy ever running the whole game out from the break, let alone doing it 5 times in a row. Plus the matches of 14.1 were usually only 125 pts. I know that they changed it to 150 points for at least one year because Balsis ran 150 and out on Crane down there. Remember Crane had run 150 and out on Balsis at the US Open in Chicago. This was their next meeting which prompted Jersey Red to say, "No point in them two playing anymore, they should just lag for the break."

Willie Mosconi was the greatest I ever saw. Willie gave three exhibitions at my neighborhood pool room, The Dragon Cue, in Chicago's Chinatown. Mosconi played three 200-point games in a three-day period. Willie ran 200 and out the first game he played. He played the owner's daughter, Helen Wing. When Mosconi reached 200 points, he stopped shooting and gave a trick-shot exhibition. The next day Mosconi ran 200 and out again, and again stopped shooting at 200. He had played the owner, Jimmy Wing. The third day, I was his opponent. I gave him a modicum of trouble. The score was 40 to 39 when Mosconi ran 160 and out on me. Then more trick shots— which he never missed. The games were played on 4 1/2' x 9' Brunswick Anniversary Tables with 5" pockets.


Beard


Willie was the best and it doesn't matter if someone breaks the record. Willie just walked into a strange environment, dealt with the conditions and distractions, and ran balls forever. And then moved on to the next town.

To put a finer point on it: he wasn't in some hermetically sealed, pure environment, with a perfect table, pockets, cloth, lack of distractions, maybe soft music in the background. He certainly didn't get multiple redos for days on end while a live crowd twiddled their thumbs. He'd go into a town, a strange pool room, alien table, and do it -- over and over and over again all across the country. The only concession he made was bringing his own set of balls and asking the room to recover the table and he was good to go. That's why we're still talking about him today and the first hand reports are all the same:

#####
Mosconi was always nattily dressed in sports coat and tie. He'd come into the room with a box of balls and a luggage-style cue case. His hair was pure white and he always had this very elegant, tailored look about him. To warm up, he'd rack all fifteen balls, separate the head ball and set up a break shot off to the left of the rack. The break shots he seemed to favor were always a little steeper than I would have thought comfortable, but they certainly didn't slow him up.

He'd run off two racks and then be done, ready to play his opponent, 150 points of 14.1. Depending on whom he was playing, he'd often kick into the back of the stack and play the head ball two rails into the side, just to give his opponent the chance at a running start. He'd always run at least a 100 and I saw him go 150 and out twice. If he had missed somewhere along the way and got out running a 50, or something like that, he'd turn to the crowd and ask, "Would you like to see a 100 ball run?" And we'd all go, "Well, yes." And he'd keep shooting and always get the 100. Then he'd shoot some trick shots, including some pretty nifty masses, and then hang around and talk and sign autographs. (It's the only autograph I have ever asked for in my life.)
#####

*No player today* can do what he did, day in and day out.

Lou Figueroa

Curly Howard
06-26-2011, 05:31 PM
I thought Lassiter would not be intimidated by anyone. Am I wrong on this?


No, he could watch you for an hour, and say, that guy only missed two balls, that means, I can take him. When he was out on the road with Don, the two were virtually un beatable. He dominated the mid 60's Johnson city venues. Watching him and shorty fight it out over one pocket, was a dream come true from up on those old wooden seats in the pit. The man, was simply a grand master at his sport, he was magnificent.

jay helfert
06-26-2011, 05:55 PM
I thought Lassiter would not be intimidated by anyone. Am I wrong on this?

Mosconi had a funny effect on every one in the 40's and 50's I've been told. check out his record back then. He was DOMINANT, with Crane or Caras usually finishing second. They were his stiffest opposition. No one else seemed to play their best game against him. Although Lassiter may have been the best Straight Pool player during the 60's (along with Balsis) he did not fare well against Willie as a younger man in the 50's. I don't think he ever won a match against Mosconi. Charlie Ursitti or Mike Shamos would have the records on those events they both played in.

Luther's reputation was built playing 9-Ball for money. That was his bread and butter game. He did not focus on 14.1 until the 60's, long after Willie had retired. Lassiter did play in several of the 14.1 World Championships during the 50's, never winning as far as I know. I don't see his name in the record books until the early 60's.

Curly Howard
06-26-2011, 07:08 PM
Excellent post, right on, totally correct. Maybe you were not asleep most of the time, as I though you were. :thumbup:

Mark Griffin
06-26-2011, 07:08 PM
I only got to see Willie Mosconi once - and that was in 1986.

Remember, I lived in Anchorage, Alaska for many years. He came up for the opeing of "Bank Shot Billiards" located on West Northern Lights blvd.

You could tell he could stll play - but was way past his prime.

I just don't think running 526+ is going to happen overnite - but could happen.

FYI - at the hi-run challenge we had at the BCAPL this year in Vegas, we tried to get some insurance to acquire $1 million in prize for beating 526. It was prohibitive. The best we could come up with was $5,000 fee for $100,000 prize. And that was only good for the 10 days we would be functioning.

We will continue to research a little more over the next year or so.

Just wanted all to know we tried. I think it would be nice to get a big prize together for anyone that is successful.

But I do not think putting an asterick because it was on Simonis cloth, or on an 8' table is proper. I do believe history should document the specifications on the table - but 526 is a LOT of balls.

I also believe there were higher runs by Cranfield, Euphemia, and by Mosconi himself. Charlie Ursitti had mentioned to me some of Willie's higher runs. It just was no big deal to Willie.

I thought I remembered the actual table being available for purchase a few years ago - maybe the room was closing or something. Anyone else remember that? The table could be 'checked' - but that would not mean the pockets had not been changed.

mark Griffin

vincentwu817
06-26-2011, 07:17 PM
Was born in 88 so never gotten the chance to see him play lol. Let's just say, appreciate the legend and keep it at that. No need to try to dethrone him or make comparisons. The era is different and its difficult to make a comparison when so many factors are different. This is just as annoying as the Michael Jordan comparisons in basketball. I won't be surprised if Mosconi won't be successful if he played today in our era, but that is irrelevant. He was a legend of his time and let's just appreciate him for that.