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oldplayer
05-31-2011, 10:16 AM
in my decades of playing i have never witnessed what happened in a 10 ball ball tournament last night. player "A" plays a safety, leaving the OB on the right rail by the lower right corner and the 2 ball on the opposite side with many balls blocking. the only shot is to bank up & off the head rail, a long bank. the guy puts the chalk on the table using it as a "bead" on a rifle barrel lining up the line to follow from the OB to the head rail to bank. he, of course, removed the chalk before shooting, but, i think that is not allowed but is there a rule for that? that is akin to placing your cue on the table to line up a shot. foul, game over or ball in hand, what? :confused:

macguy
05-31-2011, 10:20 AM
in my decades of playing i have never witnessed what happened in a 10 ball ball tournament last night. player "A" plays a safety, leaving the OB on the right rail by the lower right corner and the 2 ball on the opposite side with many balls blocking. the only shot is to bank up & off the head rail, a long bank. the guy puts the chalk on the table using it as a "bead" on a rifle barrel lining up the line to follow from the OB to the head rail to bank. he, of course, removed the chalk before shooting, but, i think that is not allowed but is there a rule for that? that is akin to placing your cue on the table to line up a shot. foul, game over or ball in hand, what? :confused:

I don't think he did anything wrong as long as it was a piece of chalk and not a non pool related item. He didn't mark the table. Players often use their cues as divining rods as they line up and figure out shots and that is OK.

Rod
05-31-2011, 10:27 AM
To my knowledge its legal as long as the chalk is removed before you shoot. You can lay the cue on the table as well if you hold on to the cue. Its covered in the rules, I'm just to lazy to look. LOL

Rod

cigardave
05-31-2011, 10:48 AM
Placing a piece of chalk on the rail as an aiming device is a FOUL.

Read here... from the BCAPL General Rules.

1.39 Marking the Table
It is a foul if you intentionally mark the table in any way to assist you in executing any
shot or future shot. Marking includes the deliberate placement of chalk or any other
object at a specific point on a rail or cushion to aid the alignment of a shot, or placing any
mark on any part of the table. The foul occurs at the moment you mark the table,
regardless of whether you remove the mark or whether a shot is taken.

SkyscraperChris
05-31-2011, 11:02 AM
Placing a piece of chalk on the rail as an aiming device is a FOUL.

Read here... from the BCAPL General Rules.

1.39 Marking the Table
It is a foul if you intentionally mark the table in any way to assist you in executing any
shot or future shot. Marking includes the deliberate placement of chalk or any other
object at a specific point on a rail or cushion to aid the alignment of a shot, or placing any
mark on any part of the table. The foul occurs at the moment you mark the table,
regardless of whether you remove the mark or whether a shot is taken.

I didn't know this. Thanks for posting!

Systim6
05-31-2011, 11:12 AM
HAHAHA!!! That cracks me up! If someone needs to use a marker to aim on a one rail kick shot I don't think you have much to worry about they probably don't play too good. You should just ask them if they also need a protractor for that shot. lol

Chucklez65
05-31-2011, 11:15 AM
Placing a piece of chalk on the table to help aim is not any different than placing your cuestick on on the table and then looking at the angle with it on the table. You can do this only if you dont let go of it, but cannot be placed on the table to "see" the angle better.

You cant place foreign objects on a table and leave them there as an aiming device of any kind.

TheNewSharkster
05-31-2011, 11:22 AM
Placing a piece of chalk on the rail as an aiming device is a FOUL.

Read here... from the BCAPL General Rules.

1.39 Marking the Table
It is a foul if you intentionally mark the table in any way to assist you in executing any
shot or future shot. Marking includes the deliberate placement of chalk or any other
object at a specific point on a rail or cushion to aid the alignment of a shot, or placing any
mark on any part of the table. The foul occurs at the moment you mark the table,
regardless of whether you remove the mark or whether a shot is taken.


I don't like this rule because it has a lot of grey area. At what point is placing the chalk on the rail considered it "marking"? Do you have to make a point to not put the chalk down on the rail you are kicking into? Seems to me the opposing player could call a foul on you on every shot you chalk up on.

cigardave
05-31-2011, 11:23 AM
Placing a piece of chalk on the table to help aim is not any different than placing your cuestick on on the table and then looking at the angle with it on the table. You can do this only if you dont let go of it, but cannot be placed on the table to "see" the angle better.


Relative to using your cue to aim a shot, the rules appear to allow this even if the cue is NOT held.

Read here... from the same BCAPL General Rules.

1.3 Use of Equipment
The BCAPL reserves the right to prohibit any equipment it deems untested or
inappropriate, or that has not been evaluated by the BCAPL National Office.
1. You are responsible for all equipment and accessory items you bring to the table (AR
p. 68). You may not use equipment or accessory items in a manner other than their
intended use. Specifically:
a. You may use your cue, held in your hand or not, to help align a shot (AR
p. 68);
20

tatcat2000
05-31-2011, 11:30 AM
...placing your cuestick on on the table and then looking at the angle with it on the table. You can do this only if you dont let go of it...

While that is still a foul under WSR 6.12, in BCAPL play it is legal to remove your hand from the cue. BCAPL Rule 1-3-1-a is applicable.

On a side note, I know of at least one WSR contributor and expert that has lobbied to have the "hand on the stick" restriction removed from WSR. Maybe they will be successful in the future.

Edit - sorry Dave - you type faster than I do...

:)
Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 and the BCAPL Rules "Statement of Principles" apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* For General Rules, 8-Ball, 9-Ball, 10-Ball, and 14.1 Continuous: there is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules" for those games. The BCA has no rules committee. The BCA does not edit, nor is responsible for the content of, the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials. The BCAPL maintains what we consider to be the most structured, complete and intensive referee training program available.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA. The letters "BCA" in BCAPL do not stand for "Billiard Congress of America, nor for anything at all.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
* All BCAPL members are, as always, encouraged to e-mail Bill Stock at the BCAPL National Office, bill@playcsi.com, with any comments, concerns or suggestions about the BCAPL rules.

Total_Chaos13
05-31-2011, 11:57 AM
I know I'll probably get hammered for my reply by all the pool purist in here but I think that the chalk on the rail rule is a stupid rule. Its stupid rules like this that discourage a lot of new players.

Tom In Cincy
05-31-2011, 11:58 AM
Would it be ok if you used a mirror? or maybe a laser beam?


I know I'll probably get hammered for my reply by all the pool purist in here but I think that the chalk on the rail rule is a stupid rule. Its stupid rules like this that discourage a lot of new players.

TheNewSharkster
05-31-2011, 12:06 PM
I know I'll probably get hammered for my reply by all the pool purist in here but I think that the chalk on the rail rule is a stupid rule. Its stupid rules like this that discourage a lot of new players.



Maybe you can explain what makes it "stupid"? New players probably aren't playing in BCA anyways. If I am not mistaken its not against the rules in APA (which is more likely a place for a new player to start).

cigardave
05-31-2011, 12:16 PM
I know I'll probably get hammered for my reply by all the pool purist in here but I think that the chalk on the rail rule is a stupid rule. Its stupid rules like this that discourage a lot of new players.
I can understand why you, as an individual, feel that it is a stupid rule... but I fail to understand how the rule would "discourage a lot of new players".

Total_Chaos13
05-31-2011, 12:26 PM
Maybe you can explain what makes it "stupid"? New players probably aren't playing in BCA anyways. If I am not mistaken its not against the rules in APA (which is more likely a place for a new player to start).

Placing the chalk on the rail is nothing more than a reference point. You still have to have the knowledge to properly determine the ball path, speed, english and other factors. Then you must have the skill set to pull pull it off regardless if its what many consider a "simple" one rail kick or some fabulous 6 rail kick with upside-down inside-out english with a twist ( i know that's not really possible just exaggerating my point.) If you don't have the knowledge or the skill set to pull off the shot then where you place a piece of chalk is irrelevant. Something simple like placing the chalk on the rail isn't like using mirrors or lasers to determine the shot, its just a reference point where to hit to the rail. After i determine who, what, when, where, how to hit the shot the last thing i need is to get down on the ball look at the cue, the rail the cue the rail then realize after all that i have lost my point of reference.

Lots of people are taught to use reference points either its someone on the table like a spot on the cloth or stain or something further our in the room. The points on the rails are nothing more that stationary reference points at pre-determined positions.

Chucklez65
05-31-2011, 12:49 PM
Relative to using your cue to aim a shot, the rules appear to allow this even if the cue is NOT held.

Read here... from the same BCAPL General Rules.

1.3 Use of Equipment
The BCAPL reserves the right to prohibit any equipment it deems untested or
inappropriate, or that has not been evaluated by the BCAPL National Office.
1. You are responsible for all equipment and accessory items you bring to the table (AR
p. 68). You may not use equipment or accessory items in a manner other than their
intended use. Specifically:
a. You may use your cue, held in your hand or not, to help align a shot (AR
p. 68);
20

Thanks for this. I was completely unaware that this rule was listed this way.
Sorry for the incorrect information.

Zivan1967
05-31-2011, 12:51 PM
Placing the chalk on the rail is nothing more than a reference point. You still have to have the knowledge to properly determine the ball path, speed, english and other factors. Then you must have the skill set to pull pull it off regardless if its what many consider a "simple" one rail kick or some fabulous 6 rail kick with upside-down inside-out english with a twist ( i know that's not really possible just exaggerating my point.) If you don't have the knowledge or the skill set to pull off the shot then where you place a piece of chalk is irrelevant. Something simple like placing the chalk on the rail isn't like using mirrors or lasers to determine the shot, its just a reference point where to hit to the rail. After i determine who, what, when, where, how to hit the shot the last thing i need is to get down on the ball look at the cue, the rail the cue the rail then realize after all that i have lost my point of reference.

Lots of people are taught to use reference points either its someone on the table like a spot on the cloth or stain or something further our in the room. The points on the rails are nothing more that stationary reference points at pre-determined positions.

What's the difference from using chalk as a reference point and drawing a line from the cue ball to where you want to hit the object ball with chalk? At some point you have to draw the line and either you allow everything or nothing at all.

Using anything other than your cue should be a foul. It's the same thing when people grab a ball that's already down to see if they have room to make the shot if it's a tight fit. I think it shouldn't be allowed unless you have ball in hand and are allowed to touch a ball in the first place.

cigardave
05-31-2011, 02:43 PM
It's the same thing when people grab a ball that's already down to see if they have room to make the shot if it's a tight fit. I think it shouldn't be allowed unless you have ball in hand and are allowed to touch a ball in the first place.

FOUL... not allowed at all.

1.3 Use of Equipment
The BCAPL reserves the right to prohibit any equipment it deems untested or
inappropriate, or that has not been evaluated by the BCAPL National Office.
1. You are responsible for all equipment and accessory items you bring to the table (AR
p. 68). You may not use equipment or accessory items in a manner other than their
intended use. Specifically:

g. you may not use any ball, cue, rack, or any other equipment or any part of
your body as a width-measuring device to determine if the cue ball or an
object ball would fit through a gap or to judge what ball the cue ball would
contact first (AR p. 68).

macneilb
05-31-2011, 04:40 PM
As far as i'm concerned, you can put the chalk anywhere you like, as it's not altering or affecting the playing surface itself at all. Licking your finger and putting a mark on the table by pressing you wet finger IS what i would consider "marking the table." In my opinion, after I chalk I can put the chalk down anywhere I want. Same could be said for placing your hand on the table in preparation to play shape to where your hand is - it's not affecting or changing the playing surface, so there isn't anything wrong about it to me.

GADawg
05-31-2011, 05:13 PM
As far as i'm concerned, you can put the chalk anywhere you like, as it's not altering or affecting the playing surface itself at all. Licking your finger and putting a mark on the table by pressing you wet finger IS what i would consider "marking the table." In my opinion, after I chalk I can put the chalk down anywhere I want. Same could be said for placing your hand on the table in preparation to play shape to where your hand is - it's not affecting or changing the playing surface, so there isn't anything wrong about it to me.

I respect that as your opinion, but the rules say otherwise. If we were all allowed to use our opinons to interpret the rules, then everyone's rules would be different.

My opinion is that you cannot intentionally place any object or mark the table in any way to help you align the shot and I think that complies with the rules.

insanepoolgod
05-31-2011, 06:57 PM
FOUL... not allowed at all.

1.3 Use of Equipment
The BCAPL reserves the right to prohibit any equipment it deems untested or
inappropriate, or that has not been evaluated by the BCAPL National Office.
1. You are responsible for all equipment and accessory items you bring to the table (AR
p. 68). You may not use equipment or accessory items in a manner other than their
intended use. Specifically:

g. you may not use any ball, cue, rack, or any other equipment or any part of
your body as a width-measuring device to determine if the cue ball or an
object ball would fit through a gap or to judge what ball the cue ball would
contact first (AR p. 68).
What is the point to this rule? Seems like verifying whether a hit will be good or bad would be the way to go.

GADawg
05-31-2011, 07:34 PM
What is the point to this rule? Seems like verifying whether a hit will be good or bad would be the way to go.

the point is that you must use your eyes and your brain to gauge a shot, not any other items like out of play balls, rulers, lasers, chalk, etc. you can use your cue, but nothing else. "judgement, not measurement"

GADawg
05-31-2011, 07:38 PM
[QUOTE=tatcat2000;3037633]While that is still a foul under WSR 6.12, in BCAPL play it is legal to remove your hand from the cue. BCAPL Rule 1-3-1-a is applicable.

On a side note, I know of at least one WSR contributor and expert that has lobbied to have the "hand on the stick" restriction removed from WSR. Maybe they will be successful in the future.

Edit - sorry Dave - you type faster than I do...

:)
Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training


Buddy -

thanks. What was the logic for BCAPL deviating from the WSR rules to allow use of the cue with no hand on the cue? Seems like introducing another rules discrepancy with no strong driving force for the deviation.

tatcat2000
05-31-2011, 11:59 PM
What was the logic for BCAPL deviating from the WSR rules to allow use of the cue with no hand on the cue? Seems like introducing another rules discrepancy with no strong driving force for the deviation.

During the discussion of the rule, three things (among others) were noted:

1. The usual interpretation of the requirement of WSR 6.12 to have a hand "on" the cue stick is that no more than a fingertip need be in contact with the stick to meet the requirement of the rule.

2. With a stick lying on the table to analyze an angle, it was demonstrated that there is very little difference, and really no significant difference, between the body's position with a [WSR required] finger on the cue or without a finger on the cue. In either case, the head can easily be lowered to table level, if desired, or moved to any other elevation, or moved away to arm's length, or a full arm's length to either side (taking in the full range of many banks/kicks, though not all.) While it is true that some advantage might be gained by stepping back to observe a wider field of view, or by stepping away to view the stick from another perspective, the decision was made by the BCAPL that it was not significant enough to warrant keeping a hand on the stick.

3. The normal practice under WSR is to penalize only when intent is present. Removal of the hand-on-stick requirement ended the long-running practice of having to differentiate between, and settle arguments about, the hand being off the stick for a measurement vs. the stick laid on the table for other purposes such as tying a shoe or other non-measurement activity.

While all viewpoints were considered carefully, the above factors combined tipped the decision. In practice, during the four years the rule has been in effect for BCAPL play, including use at several non-BCAPL events, there has been no noted push-back from players or administrators.

Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rul...2/Default.aspx

* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 and the BCAPL Rules "Statement of Principles" apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* For General Rules, 8-Ball, 9-Ball, 10-Ball, and 14.1 Continuous: there is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules" for those games. The BCA has no rules committee. The BCA does not edit, nor is responsible for the content of, the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials. The BCAPL maintains what we consider to be the most structured, complete and intensive referee training program available.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA. The letters "BCA" in BCAPL do not stand for "Billiard Congress of America, nor for anything at all.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
* All BCAPL members are, as always, encouraged to e-mail Bill Stock at the BCAPL National Office, bill@playcsi.com, with any comments, concerns or suggestions about the BCAPL rules.