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View Full Version : Why not Atlantic City?


Jude Rosenstock
06-01-2011, 08:57 AM
I just read an article about all the problems Atlantic City (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110531/ap_on_re_us/us_reshuffling_atlantic_city?bouchon=501,ny)has to deal with now. Casinos are popping up everywhere causing destinations like Las Vegas to "reinvent" themselves as something more than just gambling.

With all the pool tournaments that happen in Las Vegas around this time, I have to wonder why events on such a level aren't done in the Atlantic City casinos. Please understand, I'm not saying they should move any of the league championships (ie., BCA) to the eastcoast or anything. I'm just wondering why Atlantic City isn't used to host more events. Wouldn't it be amazing to have the greatest pool tournament in the world twice a year?

I think the pool community has proven itself to be an asset to these casinos and if Atlantic City is set on its "reinvention", wouldn't it be in our interest to explore possible venues there for large-scale amateur events? I know as an eastcoaster, the northeast turn-out could be amazing. I think I'm probably missing some big problem here so if you think it's a horrible idea, please explain why.

Black-Balled
06-01-2011, 09:06 AM
I just read an article about all the problems Atlantic City (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110531/ap_on_re_us/us_reshuffling_atlantic_city?bouchon=501,ny)has to deal with now. Casinos are popping up everywhere causing destinations like Las Vegas to "reinvent" themselves as something more than just gambling.

With all the pool tournaments that happen in Las Vegas around this time, I have to wonder why events on such a level aren't done in the Atlantic City casinos. Please understand, I'm not saying they should move any of the league championships (ie., BCA) to the eastcoast or anything. I'm just wondering why Atlantic City isn't used to host more events. Wouldn't it be amazing to have the greatest pool tournament in the world twice a year?

I think the pool community has proven itself to be an asset to these casinos and if Atlantic City is set on its "reinvention", wouldn't it be in our interest to explore possible venues there for large-scale amateur events? I know as an eastcoaster, the northeast turn-out could be amazing. I think I'm probably missing some big problem here so if you think it's a horrible idea, please explain why.

I was just there and pool was so un-findable, I had to ride my bike...into a 30mph headwind...for 3 hours. Coming back was awesome.

Agreed though: AC is a fine place to be having events.

That said, no airport and who knows what they are charging for space there. judging from my recent visit, they should be giving it away though.

Eric.
06-01-2011, 09:28 AM
That said, no airport and who knows what they are charging for space there. judging from my recent visit, they should be giving it away though.

Atlantic City Int'l Airport( ACY) is in Egg Harbor, about 20 minutes from the boardwalk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_City_International_Airport

It's a small airport, but you get a few airlines that go there.

Plan B would be to fly to/from Philly (PHL). It's about an hour ride.


Eric

randyg
06-01-2011, 09:30 AM
We actually had a major pool tournament in Atlantic City. I forget the name of the Hotel BUT:

After two days of play the management wanted us to quit because they could rent the room out for more cash. Good thing for contracts.

Crazy stuff.....randyg

Jude Rosenstock
06-01-2011, 09:32 AM
We actually had a major pool tournament in Atlantic City. I forget the name of the Hotel BUT:

After two days of play the management wanted us to quit because they could rent the room out for more cash. Good thing for contracts.

Crazy stuff.....randyg

Randy, was this a major pro event or amateur? I'm thinking on a scale similar to the BCA Nationals which typically attracts several thousand players. If this were a pro event, I would venture to say there were a hundred or so players and maybe twice as many spectators.

Maniac
06-01-2011, 09:55 AM
Back in the early eighties I believe there was a major tournament there. If my mind serves me right I think Mizerak, "Fast Eddie" Felson, Grady Seasons, and some young gun named Vic, or Vince......something like that, played there ;)!!!

Maniac

Eric.
06-01-2011, 10:06 AM
The last major "pro" event I can think of might have been the "Last Call for 9 Ball" event. Actually, the last one was prolly the 10 ball tourney, at the Trump Marina. I think Danny Hewitt beat Jim Rempe in the finals.

Either way, it's been a while, and far & few in between.

FWIW, Trump Marina recently sold to Harrah's. Might be an opportunity for a Pool promotor, there.


Eric

Black-Balled
06-01-2011, 10:14 AM
The last major "pro" event I can think of might have been the "Last Call for 9 Ball" event. Actually, the last one was prolly the 10 ball tourney, at the Trump Marina. I think Danny Hewitt beat Jim Rempe in the finals.
Either way, it's been a while, and far & few in between.

FWIW, Trump Marina recently sold to Harrah's. Might be an opportunity for a Pool promotor, there.


Eric


That was the last event I heard of there as well.

I recently stayed @ Trump Marina and they are redoing it, trying to bring in up to Y2k standards. The Don was not keeping on top of the decor!

cuesmith
06-01-2011, 10:33 AM
I just read an article about all the problems Atlantic City (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110531/ap_on_re_us/us_reshuffling_atlantic_city?bouchon=501,ny)has to deal with now. Casinos are popping up everywhere causing destinations like Las Vegas to "reinvent" themselves as something more than just gambling.

With all the pool tournaments that happen in Las Vegas around this time, I have to wonder why events on such a level aren't done in the Atlantic City casinos. Please understand, I'm not saying they should move any of the league championships (ie., BCA) to the eastcoast or anything. I'm just wondering why Atlantic City isn't used to host more events. Wouldn't it be amazing to have the greatest pool tournament in the world twice a year?

I think the pool community has proven itself to be an asset to these casinos and if Atlantic City is set on its "reinvention", wouldn't it be in our interest to explore possible venues there for large-scale amateur events? I know as an eastcoaster, the northeast turn-out could be amazing. I think I'm probably missing some big problem here so if you think it's a horrible idea, please explain why.

Actually I attended a couple of tournaments in AC back in the mid to late 80's that were great! I liked it much better than Vegas for a tournament! There weren't as many "comps" as the old Vegas had but there aren't in Vegas anymore either. The room rates at the tournaments were super back then! I'd travel to Atlantic City before Vegas any day!

Jude Rosenstock
06-01-2011, 10:58 AM
The last major "pro" event I can think of might have been the "Last Call for 9 Ball" event. Actually, the last one was prolly the 10 ball tourney, at the Trump Marina. I think Danny Hewitt beat Jim Rempe in the finals.

Either way, it's been a while, and far & few in between.

FWIW, Trump Marina recently sold to Harrah's. Might be an opportunity for a Pool promotor, there.


Eric

A pro event isn't exactly what I had in mind. I'm thinking more like the BCA Vegas event where there are events for women & men amateurs and teams and, like the BCA, have a pro event as part of the show. Something that would attract a few thousand people. Having just a pro event would only draw a few hundred people and possibly not make a dent in a casino's overall revenue.

Eric.
06-01-2011, 11:07 AM
A pro event isn't exactly what I had in mind. I'm thinking more like the BCA Vegas event where there are events for women & men amateurs and teams and, like the BCA, have a pro event as part of the show. Something that would attract a few thousand people. Having just a pro event would only draw a few hundred people and possibly not make a dent in a casino's overall revenue.

A few local leagues and promoters (local APA, TAP league, Allen Hopkins) have flirted with the idea, but...nuthin.

The last league that considered it was the TAP league. I don't know the details, but it nvr materialized.

A huge amateur event would be the ticket. Afterall, it is a numbers game for the casinos; the more potential gamblers, the better.

Maybe this can be a call to all the league operator and promotors that frequent AZB. Have you considered Atl City for an event? Why? Why not?


Eric

cleary
06-01-2011, 11:25 AM
From what I've been told (no idea how much truth there is to this), pool (at least professionally) wore out its welcome in the 80s in Atlantic City. From what I understand, what went down in the movie "the Color of Money" pretty much actually happened. Players dumping and taking off the house odds.

Jude Rosenstock
06-01-2011, 11:30 AM
A few local leagues and promoters (local APA, TAP league, Allen Hopkins) have flirted with the idea, but...nuthin.

The last league that considered it was the TAP league. I don't know the details, but it nvr materialized.

A huge amateur event would be the ticket. Afterall, it is a numbers game for the casinos; the more potential gamblers, the better.

Maybe this can be a call to all the league operator and promotors that frequent AZB. Have you considered Atl City for an event? Why? Why not?


Eric

I hope so. I don't want to wait a year to go back to Las Vegas to play in the BCA Championships again. It would be awesome if there was something in the middle and I believe I'm not alone in my thoughts. Given the overwhelming success of the Vegas events, there should be enough demand to support something similar around the midway point (November to January).

Jude Rosenstock
06-01-2011, 11:37 AM
From what I've been told (no idea how much truth there is to this), pool (at least professionally) wore out its welcome in the 80s in Atlantic City. From what I understand, what went down in the movie "the Color of Money" pretty much actually happened. Players dumping and taking off the house odds.

Not saying this isn't true but if this is the case, I would be flabbergasted. I guess the most important questions are, are the Vegas amateur events a success from the casino's perspective? From the BCA's perspective? If we have a proven and successful track record in Vegas, I can't see how Atlantic City wouldn't already be aware of it.

cuesmith
06-01-2011, 11:48 AM
From what I've been told (no idea how much truth there is to this), pool (at least professionally) wore out its welcome in the 80s in Atlantic City. From what I understand, what went down in the movie "the Color of Money" pretty much actually happened. Players dumping and taking off the house odds.

I think you're thinking of the Challenge of Champions" that took place in Vegas. That's when the Casino booked the tournament matches and were "taken off" by some of the players. Vegas knew they'd been had and never booked pool again after that. It was the year that Mike Lebron won and was a big "long shot" in the event.

Eric.
06-01-2011, 11:52 AM
From what I've been told (no idea how much truth there is to this), pool (at least professionally) wore out its welcome in the 80s in Atlantic City. From what I understand, what went down in the movie "the Color of Money" pretty much actually happened. Players dumping and taking off the house odds.

You got the story wrong.

The story was that the Vegas odds makers soured on Pool due to the dumping and fixing of matches during the Challenge of Champions that Spanish Mike Lebron won. Vegas nvr make a line on Pool again.

AC hosted a pro tourney as recently as within the last 7-8 years or so.

*edit- Sherm beat me to it


Eric

cleary
06-01-2011, 11:58 AM
I think you're thinking of the Challenge of Champions" that took place in Vegas. That's when the Casino booked the tournament matches and were "taken off" by some of the players. Vegas knew they'd been had and never booked pool again after that. It was the year that Mike Lebron won and was a big "long shot" in the event.

That sounds about what I heard, only I heard it was AC... But makes sense.

Eric.
06-01-2011, 12:01 PM
I hope so. I don't want to wait a year to go back to Las Vegas to play in the BCA Championships again. It would be awesome if there was something in the middle and I believe I'm not alone in my thoughts. Given the overwhelming success of the Vegas events, there should be enough demand to support something similar around the midway point (November to January).

It's a very viable idea, at this time.

AC is hurting, economically. I'm sure they will listen to anything, right now. IF the event would be scheduled from, say, Sun to Friday morning, then it might look even more attractive. AC is mostly a Fri and Sat only town. Most of the casinos business is done on Fri and Sat alone. If someone had an event on Sun to Thurs/Fri morning, then you could get favorable hotel rates. Also, having the event anywhere between June to September would be ideal, weather-wise, in NJ. I'm thinking July or September might be the best months.


Eric

itsfroze
06-01-2011, 12:31 PM
A pro event isn't exactly what I had in mind. I'm thinking more like the BCA Vegas event where there are events for women & men amateurs and teams and, like the BCA, have a pro event as part of the show. Something that would attract a few thousand people. Having just a pro event would only draw a few hundred people and possibly not make a dent in a casino's overall revenue.

I think one of the reasons that there isn't a big amateur event for men and women plus a pro event on the side is that you already have the Super Billiards Expo in Penn.

Jude Rosenstock
06-01-2011, 12:58 PM
I think one of the reasons that there isn't a big amateur event for men and women plus a pro event on the side is that you already have the Super Billiards Expo in Penn.

SBE is a great event but I wouldn't consider it worthy of dismissing Atlantic City for the rest of the year. I think, if any organization were to consider AC as a host, it would have to respect SBE's place in the calendar which still leaves quite a bit of room to work with. You could have an event in November and people will still be amped by the time March rolls around.

Eric.
06-01-2011, 01:07 PM
Another idea would be to piggy back off of the US 9 ball Open scheduling by having the AC event the first week of Oct. This would give an incentive for top players worldwide to play the pro event, then continue onto the US Open in Chesapeake.

Early Oct also doesnt clash with any other "amateur nationals" event that I know of.


Eric

Chucklez65
06-01-2011, 01:12 PM
Another possibility to consider..is that since its a week long...people tend to use their main vacation attending the event.

Would it split the attendance at either event and make both events falter in the attendance?

Vegas would still draw the players from the west coast, AC would get the East coast players, but would players choose to make both trips?

It seems like it might wind up being more of a regional event instead of a national one.

I, for one, would LOVE to see more amateur events and would love to attend one in AC, but I think it would still divide the numbers between them.

Just something to think about.

ctyhntr
06-01-2011, 01:19 PM
AC is no longer priced attractively for anyone in pool to hold an event down there. I believe they're trying to attract a more upscale clientele.

In New York City's Chinatown, there used to be tons of buses going to AC. Now most of the buses go to Mohegan Sun instead. Speaking with friends who gamble, they tell me the odds and comps are better.

Jude Rosenstock
06-01-2011, 01:31 PM
AC is no longer priced attractively for anyone in pool to hold an event down there. I believe they're trying to attract a more upscale clientele.

In New York City's Chinatown, there used to be tons of buses going to AC. Now most of the buses go to Mohegan Sun instead. Speaking with friends who gamble, they tell me the odds and comps are better.

So you're saying you don't agree with the article I posted? I mean, if you don't, that's perfectly valid. I'm under the assumption that this downward trend for AC is recent and perhaps there may be an upcoming opportunity for pool.

Jude Rosenstock
06-01-2011, 02:00 PM
Another possibility to consider..is that since its a week long...people tend to use their main vacation attending the event.

Would it split the attendance at either event and make both events falter in the attendance?

Vegas would still draw the players from the west coast, AC would get the East coast players, but would players choose to make both trips?

It seems like it might wind up being more of a regional event instead of a national one.

I, for one, would LOVE to see more amateur events and would love to attend one in AC, but I think it would still divide the numbers between them.

Just something to think about.

You make excellent and valid points. I have an idea on how to respond to this but want to see if I can get some supporting data to back up my claims. Give me a day.

danquixote
06-01-2011, 03:30 PM
I hope so. I don't want to wait a year to go back to Las Vegas to play in the BCA Championships again. It would be awesome if there was something in the middle and I believe I'm not alone in my thoughts. Given the overwhelming success of the Vegas events, there should be enough demand to support something similar around the midway point (November to January).

How about the Memphis/Tunica area. We are situated about as close to center US as possible with many local attractions as well. I know the casinos have hosted some major tournys in the past. You promoters and players......Give Memphis a look see.........Dan

Cory in DC
06-01-2011, 03:53 PM
Not saying this isn't true but if this is the case, I would be flabbergasted. I guess the most important questions are, are the Vegas amateur events a success from the casino's perspective? From the BCA's perspective? If we have a proven and successful track record in Vegas, I can't see how Atlantic City wouldn't already be aware of it.

Well, the Riviera is a dump that's gotten worse over time in terms of both general maintenance and staff attitude. And yet the BCA and APA both stay there year after year. I realize there are likely long term contracts, but they must have had a renewal at some point in the last decade and there should be termination for cause or with notice provisions.

The conclusion I draw from that is that other casinos aren't making any real effort to win that business. In turn, that tells me that, for whatever reasons, a hotel full of amateur pool players just isn't all that attractive to casinos.

In other words, maybe the Vegas amateur pool track record isn't that good??

kaznj
06-01-2011, 04:18 PM
From the beginning the casinos only wanted to get people into the casino. Everything was just something used to get people into the casino. Just like a loss leader sale at the supermarket. The last thing they want is to fill up their rooms with people whose only betting will be at the pool table.
I go to VF to watch pool. If an event like the super billiards expo was held in Atlantic city I would not leave the pool convention to go to the craps table.
Atlantic city has the ocean and board walk. The casinos have done little to nothing to use this to attract people. One block away from the casino is a very unattractive area. The city has done nothing to change this. They only want people to stay in the casinos.

jason
06-01-2011, 04:58 PM
From what I've been told (no idea how much truth there is to this), pool (at least professionally) wore out its welcome in the 80s in Atlantic City. From what I understand, what went down in the movie "the Color of Money" pretty much actually happened. Players dumping and taking off the house odds.

I believe the Atlantic City scene at the end of the movie was actually shot on Navy Pier in Chicago. Not that this has anything to do with the dumping. Just making a trivial comment.

randyg
06-01-2011, 05:07 PM
Randy, was this a major pro event or amateur? I'm thinking on a scale similar to the BCA Nationals which typically attracts several thousand players. If this were a pro event, I would venture to say there were a hundred or so players and maybe twice as many spectators.



I think it was the BCA National 9-Ball Championships, produced by Gary Benson. I was there and it was full fields. Poor vision by the Casino....randyg