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LCCS
02-03-2006, 11:39 AM
HAs anybody used the artemis k-66 rubber on a Gold Crown table?Please let me know how it worked out.Any info would be helpful.
Thanx,Ron

Poolschool
02-03-2006, 12:04 PM
I have never put Artemis on a GC. Plenty of other K66 cushions including Accufast rubber from Olhausen. When I first replaced cushions on a GC about 7 years ago I questioned the difference in profile. K55 and K66 both have the same nose height but differ in the base area. As long as it is installed properly it will turn out great...

LCCS
02-03-2006, 09:09 PM
Thanx, for the reply.I have been dealing with this for a week know.I have been told several different stories.The bottom line ,i believe from what i see and you are telling me is that the back of the rubber is different.What i call the u cut out into the back of the rubber that glues to the rail is different.Is that what you are saying?
Thanx,Ron

BRKNRUN
02-03-2006, 10:17 PM
Thanx, for the reply.I have been dealing with this for a week know.I have been told several different stories.The bottom line ,i believe from what i see and you are telling me is that the back of the rubber is different.What i call the u cut out into the back of the rubber that glues to the rail is different.Is that what you are saying?
Thanx,Ron

Artemis also puts a cloth type backing on the rubber. It is supposed to even the compression over a wider area and prevent the ball from pinching or biteing (whatever you want to call it)

I have Artemis on my GCII, and I think they play great...

I may be mistaken on this, but I think Artemis only offers one K profile. I am not sure if it is the K66 or K55...

LCCS
02-04-2006, 10:49 AM
They only offer k-66.So you are telling me that you did not have to modeify the rails for the artemis k-66 rubber to be glued to them?Can i glue the artemis rubber to the rails with no problem?
Thanx,Ron

Tbeaux
02-04-2006, 01:28 PM
They only offer k-66.So you are telling me that you did not have to modeify the rails for the artemis k-66 rubber to be glued to them?Can i glue the artemis rubber to the rails with no problem?
Thanx,Ron


Actually on the corporate site they say they have k-66, k-55 and U37(??). Don't know about the rails. I've heard yes and no. It may have to do with the way the different manufacturers cut their rails and the particular table design. If the table is 4 1/2 X 9 it should end up with a play area of 50"X100" and a cushion nose height of approximately 1 13/32".

Terry

LCCS
02-04-2006, 10:22 PM
Please pm me and tell me more
Thanx,Ron

JPAlexis
02-05-2006, 10:56 PM
I don't get it. If you own a Gold Crown, why don't you go to a Brunswick Dealer and buy Brunswick Super Speed rubber for your table. Super Speed is made for Gold Crowns. Is there something wrong with Super Speed? Why are people having this discussion? I think why people like GC's is the way they bank. So why not replace it with the same rubber.
JPA:confused:

JoeyInCali
02-06-2006, 12:38 AM
I don't get it. If you own a Gold Crown, why don't you go to a Brunswick Dealer and buy Brunswick Super Speed rubber for your table. Super Speed is made for Gold Crowns. Is there something wrong with Super Speed? Why are people having this discussion? I think why people like GC's is the way they bank. So why not replace it with the same rubber.
JPA:confused:
Because SuperSpeed are crap.

LCCS
02-06-2006, 11:42 AM
Thanx Joey,Super speed hardens faster than alot of rubber.And i thought i made it clear that i was looking for help.Not slack.
Thanx,Ron

NineBallNut
02-06-2006, 02:07 PM
Thanx Joey,Super speed hardens faster than alot of rubber.And i thought i made it clear that i was looking for help.Not slack.
Thanx,Ron
the artemis rubber will be fine on that table. I Just have a couple of questions for you. Do you know first hand about superspeed rubber getting harder quicker than others? Or is it just something you've heard. What Is the time frame for that? I have a gold crown and have not had any problems with the rubber what so ever. I'm not going to argue with anyone about this but I would like to hear about the time frame on the rubber getting hard.

AuntyDan
02-06-2006, 03:08 PM
Thanx Joey,Super speed hardens faster than alot of rubber.And i thought i made it clear that i was looking for help.Not slack.
Thanx,Ron

I heard this too from several sources. However everyone I've heard says this about the GC III generation of tables, on which I understand that several corners were cut in both design, materials and production. I would have hoped that around the time of the introduction of the GC IV Brunswick would have resolved this issue and that brand new SuperSpeed cushions purchased today would last without hardening inordinately. I guess only time will tell, unless someone can say they've directly experienced new Superspeed rubber hardening on the GC IV already.

The second element to this is do you want you table to be as perfect as possible for as long as possible, in which case I've heard nothing but good things about Artemis, or do you want it to play like 90% of the competition/tournament tables currently in use in the USA? (IE GC I-IV with SuperSpeed cushions). For example I have a 9' AMF GC look-alike and it has the Champioship Tour Edition rubber. Whilst it's good (and has been very well installed by Steve from Hardtimes, which makes a huge difference) it does not play the same as the vast majoriry of GC tables I shoot on everywhere else. When I next get it recovered I will most likely change it to Artemis if I can afford it, or SuperSpeed if the current product will last properly.

IIRC The Diamond Pro tables now use Artemis rubber, but these are still far less prevelant in general use than GCs.

AuntyDan
02-06-2006, 03:17 PM
the artemis rubber will be fine on that table. I Just have a couple of questions for you. Do you know first hand about superspeed rubber getting harder quicker than others? Or is it just something you've heard. What Is the time frame for that? I have a gold crown and have not had any problems with the rubber what so ever. I'm not going to argue with anyone about this but I would like to hear about the time frame on the rubber getting hard.

I think it's also worth hearing if anyone has experienced this on a home table, used for maybe a few hours a day a few days a week, or only on tables in Pool Halls which may be used heavily night and day for years.

NineBallNut
02-06-2006, 04:00 PM
I think it's also worth hearing if anyone has experienced this on a home table, used for maybe a few hours a day a few days a week, or only on tables in Pool Halls which may be used heavily night and day for years.
I know for sure that they had trouble with some of there true speed rubber that comes on there contender series. But I haven't had to replace any rubber on any of there main line stuff in the nine years I've been installing tables. Well, that's a lie....lol I replaced some rubber on a few gold crown 1's that came out of a pool hall here in town. They had seen better days

LCCS
02-06-2006, 04:45 PM
I have a GC 3 and one rubber is getting hard.However my uncle has a GC 1 and this is the third time that he has had to replace the super speed rubber.What i am trying to do is get the best rubber that will work on a GC 3 so that i do not have to go through the same thing as him.I thought that Artemis was the best,that is why i would like to use them.But i have heard so many different stories that i will probably go with Champoinship,unless anybody has any other advise.
Thanx,Ron

Tablemechanic
02-06-2006, 06:07 PM
Well here it is. The U.S. made Super Speed on the Gold Crown 1's and 2's was some of the best rubber made. I have recoverd 100 year old Brunswicks and the rubber was still good. The Super Speed that was use on the Gold Crown 3's was most likely made out of the country. I have replaced the rubber on most of the Gold Crown 3's that I have worked on. I have 11 sets of Gold Crown 3 rails in the shop right now that I am replacing the rubber on. The new Super Speed that Brunswick is using on the GC4's is different than what they used on the GC3's. I have not seen any of the rubber on the GC4's go bad yet. I have played on a lot of GC4's and the rubber seems a little on the bouncy side. You just get use to the speed. The profiles of k55 and k66 are completly different. k66 is smaller than k55 by about an 1/8" in all dimensions. K66 will play a little differently than k55 on the table. Over all table dimension will be a little bigger, the pockets will not be as deep and the rail higth will be a little higher which changes the way the table will play. K55 and k66 have a little different bounce to.

I have been putting on the Artemis k66 rubber on alot of GCs because that is what the owners want. Most of the tournament tables in Southern Cal. are set up that way. It is not the right profile for the table but they want it anyways. I have been using the Championship Tour Edition k55 on most the other GCs and it plays fine. It seems to be lasting good to. I have been using it since it came out about 4 years ago and not have had any problems yet. The Championship plays a little slower that the Artemis but it does play very good. I have just recived k55 rubber from another company that I am going to try out, but as of right now I do not know how it plays.

Now Diamond uses k55 profile Artemis on their table's but they are the only one you can get it from. You can call them up and order it from them direct. I have used it on a few tables where the customers did not care about the cost. Like the table in my avitar. The Artemis k55 plays great on the GC's. You will be looking at about $250 for it dellivered. But when you look at that over 10-15 years the cost is nothing for the way it plays. The name of the Artemis k55 profile is called Intercontinental no. 66, do not let the name fool you it is about the same profile as k55 and the same rubber that Diamond uses on thier tables.

I have not used any of the Olausen Accu-Fast rubber, it is a k66 profile. It seems very good and it is made in the US.

Also all pool table rubber has a cloth backing on it for bonding it to the rail.

I wish Brunswick would take their old rubber formula and use it on their current rubber.

I have woked on 100s of GC so I have seen alot of things.

Please pm me if you have any questions.

I think you will be happy with the Championship Tour Edition k55 on your table.

Steve

Doug
02-06-2006, 06:18 PM
Recently I replaced the rubber on my Diamond Pro table with Artemis cushions (the early DP's did not have Artemis as standard) and found out after receiving the Artemis rubber that Artemis K66 cushions are not the same as K66 profile. The profile was not even close. Maybe I am the only one confused by this but be sure whatever manufacter you choose that you get the same profile as your table is designed to use or else the balls will rebound incorrectly. Personally I like the rebound speed that Artemis gives compared to the very fast Superspeed cushions. However, I installed Olhausen's Accufast cushions on one of my tables and was very pleased with them also. The decision is kind of like which custom cue is the best IMO. They are all very good.

Tablemechanic
02-06-2006, 06:39 PM
Doug, did you get the Artemis from Diamond? They have used a k55 profile on all of their pro tables. On the early tables they had their own rubber that they had made. Later they changed to the Artemis Intercontinental #66 profile which is a different profile than the Artemis Pool #66. The Intercontinental #66 is like the k55 and pool #66 is the same profile as k66.

If you have any questions let me know.

Steve

LCCS
02-06-2006, 08:58 PM
This has been a big help.Thanx,Thanx,Thanx.Finally someone who knows what they are talikng about.I am going to call Diamond first thing in the morning.
Thanx,Ron

cuesmith
02-06-2006, 09:22 PM
Doug, did you get the Artemis from Diamond? They have used a k55 profile on all of their pro tables. On the early tables they had their own rubber that they had made. Later they changed to the Artemis Intercontinental #66 profile which is a different profile than the Artemis Pool #66. The Intercontinental #66 is like the k55 and pool #66 is the same profile as k66.

If you have any questions let me know.

Steve

Steve,
I got out of that end of the business several years ago. As I recall though, when Atremis cushions first started appearing in the US, about 20 years ago, the rails had to be modified to accept them, or at least get the best performance out of them. A wooden "ledge" had to be added on the bottom that the cushion rested on. The cushion rested in an "L" shaped configuration which caused the cushions to be much livelier than most. Have you encountered any of these? I believe Joba Trading in Chicago were their main distributor. Deno may remember this.

just more hot air!


Sherm

AuntyDan
02-06-2006, 09:29 PM
I have been putting on the Artemis k66 rubber on alot of GCs because that is what the owners want. Most of the tournament tables in Southern Cal. are set up that way. It is not the right profile for the table but they want it anyways.

Question Steve - Do the room owners do this because they feel Artemis is the best rubber available and will accept an incorrect profile if this is what it takes to get it at resonable pricing and availability, or do they actually want their tables to be converted from a K55 to a K66 profile?

BRKNRUN
02-06-2006, 09:46 PM
I have a GC 3 and one rubber is getting hard.However my uncle has a GC 1 and this is the third time that he has had to replace the super speed rubber.What i am trying to do is get the best rubber that will work on a GC 3 so that i do not have to go through the same thing as him.I thought that Artemis was the best,that is why i would like to use them.But i have heard so many different stories that i will probably go with Champoinship,unless anybody has any other advise.
Thanx,Ron

Artemis and Championship and Superspeed all have different "blends" to make the rubber. I don't have specifics, but the Artemis is supposed to be a more "true" rubber which is why it does not harden like the less expensive championship and super speed.

That is also why Artemis is more expensive...Time wise, I could not tell you. I am sure usage and climate would play a factor.

JPAlexis
02-07-2006, 04:57 PM
I still don't get it. My Uncle Gus owned a pool hall in Carlisle Pa for 50 years. He bought 16 Brunswick Centenials pool tables in 1948 with Monarch Cushions which are K-55. He didn't have to replace the cushions. My Father bought 8 Brunswicks Aniversity tables for his pool hall in 1958 and had them for 25 years and never had to replace the cushions. Nicer playing tables you couldn't fine. I bought 19 used Gold Crown I and II in 1993 for my pool Hall in Bloomington Mn. I replaced the cushions on 6 tables because my customers wanted tighter pockets not because they needed cushions. The customers didn't want them shimed because they said the the pockets played funny. So I put new Brunswick Super Speed on 6 of them. They played great. I had one problem on one of the tables in that the cushions became soft or mushy. I replaced that one with Championship Fleetwood and it got hard after 3 years. I put Super Speed on it and the table played great. I understand that Brusnwick has a patent on its rubber formula and keeps the formula a secret so you have to go to them if you want replacement rubber.
We also had three Diamond Pro tables that had Champion Fleetwood rubber. The Diamond cushions went bad in 3-4 years.
Gold Crown I's were made in the 60's and if you are telling me that the rubber went bad I believe you. But I think the table may have been stored in a unheated warehouse subject to humidity and of course the cushion needs to be replaced. If you are telling me that it just went bad sitting in a controled heat and humidity situation I just don't believe you. I think it is possible as the table is 40 years old the rubber needs to be replaced and it probably doesn't bounce as well as when it was new.

JPA

JoeyInCali
02-07-2006, 05:37 PM
I still don't get it. My Uncle Gus owned a pool hall in Carlisle Pa for 50 years. He bought 16 Brunswick Centenials pool tables in 1948 with Monarch Cushions which are K-55. He didn't have to replace the cushions. My Father bought 8 Brunswicks Aniversity tables for his pool hall in 1958 and had them for 25 years and never had to replace the cushions. Nicer playing tables you couldn't fine. I bought 19 used Gold Crown I and II in 1993 for my pool Hall in Bloomington Mn. I replaced the cushions on 6 tables because my customers wanted tighter pockets not because they needed cushions. The customers didn't want them shimed because they said the the pockets played funny. So I put new Brunswick Super Speed on 6 of them. They played great. I had one problem on one of the tables in that the cushions became soft or mushy. I replaced that one with Championship Fleetwood and it got hard after 3 years. I put Super Speed on it and the table played great. I understand that Brusnwick has a patent on its rubber formula and keeps the formula a secret so you have to go to them if you want replacement rubber.
We also had three Diamond Pro tables that had Champion Fleetwood rubber. The Diamond cushions went bad in 3-4 years.
Gold Crown I's were made in the 60's and if you are telling me that the rubber went bad I believe you. But I think the table may have been stored in a unheated warehouse subject to humidity and of course the cushion needs to be replaced. If you are telling me that it just went bad sitting in a controled heat and humidity situation I just don't believe you. I think it is possible as the table is 40 years old the rubber needs to be replaced and it probably doesn't bounce as well as when it was new.

JPA
The Chinese-made Super Speed cushions are nowhere near the quality of the Chicago-made Monarch Cushions. Not even close.

Tbeaux
02-07-2006, 08:18 PM
Here are some profiles
14674

14675

14676

Terry