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Gerry
02-04-2006, 05:25 AM
I was reading another post about BIG money games, and was interested in what you all think about when gambling? I rarely play for everything in my pocket, or gamble til I'm busted. Is all about who's a better player, or who wins all the money? I usually don't care so much about the amount of money I'm betting, I just want to beat everyone. I was thinking about how this ties in with great players giving up the game to play poker, so to them it's about money or action, not playing great pool I guess.......

Gerry

jjinfla
02-04-2006, 05:59 AM
If they are addicted to gambling then it is strictly the action - winning or losing means nothing.

Get_A_Grip
02-04-2006, 06:51 AM
It's interesting--I've talked with an ex-road player/hustler who on the one hand has a theory that the better player IS who wins the most money...period. He just says that that's the true measure of the better player in his opinion (although, when you think about it...that could purely be another type of subtle hustle that his pulling to entice everyone else into gambling with him--to try to prove themselves...).

But on the other hand, this same ex-road player will play on bar tables in any condition and prides himself on being able to adapt to the table and the environment. So he does take pride in his shooting ability and ability to adapt...but I rarely see him just practicing...he is always in action.

There are other ex-roadies that will not touch a bar table...but for the same reason. Gambling and winning is so important to them, that they don't want the bar tables to throw-off their feel for position on the 9-footers at all. Again, their ultimately goal is to keep their game as sharp as possible to win the money.

For me, I am very competitive and it doesn't matter if I'm gambling or not...I take pride in my game and will try my best to beat my opponent just for pride. But I also get a lot of satisfaction by just executing a great shot and in some ways consider each and every shot as a form of art...I personnally judge a player by the type and skill of shot that I see them executing...and not by how much money I see they winning when gambling.

A lot of typing, but now I'm not sure if I really answered your question, though...LOL

rackmsuckr
02-04-2006, 07:20 AM
There are other ex-roadies that will not touch a bar table...but for the same reason. Gambling and winning is so important to them, that they don't want the bar tables to throw-off their feel for position on the 9-footers at all. Again, their ultimately goal is to keep their game as sharp as possible to win the money.


The better shooters usually will not gamble on a bar box because it is the Great Equalizer. So-so shooters will make shots with far less accuracy and still be able to move their ball around, while the more accurate shooter might split the wicket on the 9 footer and still get the same shape. Now they are both making balls and attaining shape on the bar box, so there is no longer much of an advantage except maybe tactical ones.

PoolSleuth
02-04-2006, 08:04 AM
If they are addicted to gambling then it is strictly the action - winning or losing means nothing.

Amen so true......:p

Travis Bickle
02-04-2006, 08:57 AM
I'm mainly in it for the challenge and in hopes of improving my game. Haven't had free time to play in tournaments lately, so it's about the only way to get in a serious game.
I won't risk losing so much that I'd feel sick about it, either, lol.

Gregg
02-04-2006, 09:04 AM
Psssssst! Something I overheard in the pool hall;

"You don't have to be a good pool player in order gamble on pool."

You could take a guy for 100s of dollars, and not be able to on your best day run a rack.

That would not impress anybody. It's the skill that gets you noticed.

Cane
02-04-2006, 09:27 AM
To me it's about winning the money! Someone wants to give me the nuts, I'm not going to argue about it. I'm going to take every oppurtunity I can to keep my money and get theirs... but that's not the case for everyone. Some would rather be pushed than enriched (monetarily). For those, it's all about the action and the rush they get from it.

I know one pro player that likes to gamble but offers UNBELIEVABLE spots to top players. For him, it's about winning against the outrageous spot, not about the money. Part of that MIGHT be the push and then again, if he loses he can always say "Well, I gave the guy 12 to 5 just to get him to play..."

Later,
Bob

Salamander
02-04-2006, 10:05 AM
To me it's just a way to keep score.

Regards,

Doug

catscradle
02-04-2006, 12:00 PM
I was reading another post about BIG money games, and was interested in what you all think about when gambling? I rarely play for everything in my pocket, or gamble til I'm busted. Is all about who's a better player, or who wins all the money? I usually don't care so much about the amount of money I'm betting, I just want to beat everyone. I was thinking about how this ties in with great players giving up the game to play poker, so to them it's about money or action, not playing great pool I guess.......

Gerry

Personally I don't gamble in pool at all. All I gamble at is poker, and only then because that's how you keep score. I suppose for some people winning and losing money is how they keep score in pool, not me, I just count the games.
I understand why people who play pool for a living gamble, but I don't understand why others give them their money. Further, I think it is a very rare pool player who makes a good living gambling, and if they do make a good living at it, other factors are more important than their pool playing.

CaptiveBred
02-04-2006, 04:00 PM
I play to be the best. That has always been my driving force... Never about the cash...


However, I DO play for money but I NEVER gamble ;)

Gerry
02-05-2006, 05:28 AM
I understand why people who play pool for a living gamble, but I don't understand why others give them their money. .


I guess it's the action, or they think they got enough weight, or they flat out got hustled:) but is'nt poker the same thing? everyone ante's up thinking they are going to win, and usually it's an experienced player that wins IMO.

Gerry

maximillion
02-05-2006, 06:59 AM
I play horrible in tournaments, at first I was stalling on purpose but when I tried to put it into gear, still stalling. Luckily it has gotten me lots of action and I can get my stuff together on a long 1 on 1 match, suprises the heck out some of the people ive played one on one when they have to face me as a C player in tournyes:)

Ummagumma
07-22-2006, 02:06 AM
I don't gamble often, and when I do, it's usually for small amounts ($10 to $20 a set) with friends. I avoid more problems that way.

One thing I don't particularly care for is the etiquette of not quitting when you're ahead. I understand why it is, but when i win $20 or $40, I want to keep what I won and use it to buy lunch or some DVDs or something. Not risk losing it again.

I think it was mentioned in Playing Off the Rail that gambling between regular pool players is its own economic world. No one permanently loses their money, as it always exchanges hands. You lose some one week, win it back the next week from someone else.

There's nothing wrong with that at all, just not for me. As mentioned above I just want to keep my money and go spend it on something fun or go pay bills or something.

That's the nice thing about playing with friends: No arguments (usually) about shots and no worries if someone wants to quit when they're ahead.

One reason why I do gamble: It [usually] makes me play better. The other night, I got beat playing a couple of sets against an A player (I'm a C player). I played him because I wanted to play better, and what better way than going against a superior player?

I lost $80 gambling to him, but I also learned something after my first time playing against someone of that caliber, so it was worth it. 1) Basically, against a player of that level, don't leave him any shot since he'll typically get out (which he did 90% of the time). 2) Don't play for money if you're in a slump. With the spot he was giving me, I still couldn't run more than 4 to 6 balls, and because 3) Know the speed of the cue ball better so you don't hook yourself or come up way too short, and better calculate the path of the CB after hitting object ball, so you don't bloody scratch all of the time (ex: I'd shoot a shot, planning on the CB hitting 2 inches away from the side pocket after hit on the OB).

All of these sound obvious and all of these things I know, but it's one thing to read about on paper versus learning from experience -- having the lesson reemphasized. Which is why it was worth $80.

ATH
07-22-2006, 03:27 AM
I gamble a lot, i like playing for money and find it helps me sharpen my game.
But i think gambling is a very personal thing, and you have to respect the people who do not like it. But it's hard to escape the fact that gambling is a large part of pool playing, if it is in one on one games or in a tournament playing for the first prize.

Tommy-D
07-22-2006, 03:36 AM
> To me,betting on a pool match that I am involved in,whether playing even,giving or taking a spot,is NOT gambling,it's a calculated risk. I say that because if I agree to a game,like I said whether I am playing someone my speed even,giving or taking a spot,I know what is involved and have evaluated the monetary risk well before I post the cash. If I lose at that point,I either made a bad game myself,by trying to jump someone over my head,took a bad game that someone offered,or offered too much weight and didn't play well enough to cover it,or got outplayed even. If I win,I came up with the right shots and decisons at critical times,my opponent didn't,or someone offered too much weight and I played good behind it. I will not be badgered or pushed into a game I can't win,betting all I have with no way to eat and survive,or chase action by repeatedly trying to either step up and beat someone WAY over my head,or give up a spot I have to play inhuman pool to win with. I don't sit and make people wait on an answer either,if someone approaches me for a game,even,giving/getting,you'll have your answer pretty quick,my mind is made up by that point and whatever happens happens. No one that ever met me and played more than an occasional set with me has questioned my desire or will to win. That being said,working for a living and child support doesn't give me much choice either. I'm not borrowing gas money or money for the bills and daily meals because I went broke trying to beat the ghost. I consider things like betting serious money in matches I'm not involved in,like side-betting,pro sports,games of chance,to be closer to the true definition of gambling that betting on a pool match you knew before the balls were racked that you COULD lose at. Casinos,slot machines,scratch off lottery tickets,and crap like the shell game to me aren't really gambling either,because in my mind,only an idiot truly expects to get that money back,in my mind they might as well be burning it. On the extremely rare occasions I bet on something I have no direct control of the outcome in,I have allocated a certain amount to blow,and see how much enjoyment I can have blowing it,never expecting to see it again,but HOPING it comes back,rather than depending on it.


> In another vein,if I had the kind of "disposable" income that hard work or good fortune created for some of the people here do,or was independently wealthy away from the game,or was tapped in to the parallell economy that some road players,high powered backers/side bettors,where 1000-10000 to possibly just give away isn't hard to come by,a LOT of people would be looking for me. Either to pump up by beating me,or trying to beat me,because if the money were no object like it is for people that regularly engage in these things,I'd try ANYONE,because I like to play THAT much. I believe in myself that much,that pool skills aside I want to win worse than you,and will try harder than you. The monetary result to me is second to the challenge of the game itself,the challenge between myself and the opponent,the self-discovery and enrichment it affords,and the eventual outcome. Winning money playing pool is not as important as playing WINNING pool to me,period. Tommy D.

RiverCity
07-22-2006, 03:28 PM
It was once said about Larry Lisciotti that he doesnt care about playing the big names, anyone he can win a quick $50 off of was his favorite opponent.
I used to gamble a fair bit, but went at it from the sure thing angle. I was never out to prove how good I was or test my skill against better players for money. I looked for guys I "knew" I could beat, and worked them into playing for cash. Not what I would call dishonest or hustling. All in all over the years, I have talked to guys about gambling, and most everyone I have talked to says the same thing..... there have been just as many losing nights as there has been winning ones. The money never really stays in anyones pocket, it just keeps changing hands over and over.
This got me to thinking..... and its true. I would say of all the money I have ever won, I have put in someone elses hands later down the road. I may even be in the hole at this point in life..... lol
Unless you like living on the edge, remember this old advice when it comes to gambling......."Its not how you play the game, its how you make the game."
Chuck

TheConArtist
07-22-2006, 03:49 PM
i like playing for money and find it helps me sharpen my game

ditto, i love to play for money but the money i play for ain't no big time money except in some tournaments and the most i won was 1500 but this was in a tournament, but the money i play for is like five or ten dollars. And as i said in a different thread my first game was a money game, it was a family get together, and we started a tournament five dollars each and i thought the game would be easy and to my surprise it wasn't, and i fall in love such a artistic game. But it was every weekend we did this play in a tournment and i lost my five dollars each time, then as i progressed at the game and started to take it up and learn it then and there i started to win. Use to start little tournments at the youth center every friday. Again five dollars the youth would get involved and the staff. Now the youth there were and are good players, they have three tables all eight footers and the kids will go there after school just to play pool and be there until it closed playing. The youth center made there own team up to play in leagues at Rapid City. But it was just a fun thing to do, and the youth would look forward to playing, and each time it seemed like a different person would win the pot. So playing for money was just fun it didn't get to the point where it became an addiction as gambling can turn out to be, and noone never gambled money they didn't have or afford. The frog skins can provide that pressure but there are different ways to provide pressure situations, bragging rights for one. But i always have the time to play a five dollar game LOL, or maybe ten as the gas prices cost an arm and a leg nowadays.

Scottster
07-22-2006, 05:59 PM
I despise the word "Hustlin" and the mentality of a "Hustler". As long as there are players in this game that take pride in deceiving their opponent by hiding their true speed, the game will be stuck in the mud.

I dont have a problem with gambling in the pool world, just the deceit that people take pride in.

There aint nothin better than a "Hustler", getting beat by a "Humbler".
The humbler being a player that puts his best effort forward in every match with a gentleman disposition during all accounts of the match.

If the pool world had more "Humblers" the game's popularity and stereotype would change for the better.

PoolSleuth
07-22-2006, 06:55 PM
I never gamble more than I can afford to loose

I never gamble with total stranger

Twenty Five Cents a Game is my Limit

Buck a Day is my limit too loose

or Race to to 3 or 7 for a Quarter is Fun
Also there are TWO kind of Gambler, losers, and liars, and if some one tell you he ALWAYS wins, he is a _ _ _ _ _, as NO WIN WINS 100% of the time.

desert1pocket
07-22-2006, 07:15 PM
In my mind, who the better player is, and who wins the money, are two independent, but equally important aspects of the game. I am always striving to improve my game, and never "lay down" or "stall", but I am also looking to win money rather than lose it. One of the reasons that I play for more than just a little money is that it keeps me focused and playing better. I am much more of a "money player" than a "tournament player", but that is something I would like to change. One of the things I am currently working on, is maintaining my focus AT ALL TIMES, rather than just when it matters.
I never gamble, but I always play pool for money. I never "hustle" anyone, and I hate being referred to as a "hustler", but I do supplement my monthly income playing pool. In the last few years I have consistently won more than I've lost, but I paid dues aplenty in my first few years playing. I am known for matching up well, and this is because I pull up when I get into a game I don't like. There are plenty of players around who let their ego control how they match up, and whether or not to pull up when they find themselves in a bad game. I pride myself in how well I play, but I will not let that pride turn into an expensive ego. It is very true that the bigger action floats around between the players a lot, but it does not even out between everyone as much as some would have you believe.

freddy the beard
07-23-2006, 02:28 AM
Herewith is the gambling mentality -- and resolve, stubborness, pride, etc-- of some of the players I knew. If you played any of the following players, the only way they would quit is if they were broke or the joint closed. They were all "straight tickets." Once they got on the table, you would have to break them or they were going to break you. One or two barrel shots were not their style. I'm sure there is a connection between their greatness and their stubborn resolve. There were more guys like this, but these are all I remember at the moment:

John Cannonball Lefty Chapman
Keith Earthquake McReady
Grady the Professor Mathews
Jim Pretty Boy Floyd Mataya
St. Louie Louie Roberts
William Corn Bread Red Burge
Cole Dickson
Hippie Jimmy Reid
Leonard Bugs Rucker
Greg Big Train Stevens
Bob Black Bart Ogborn
Denny Searcy
Javenly Youngblood Washington
A young me

Does anybody want to call those guys "suckers?"

the Beard

Tommy Joe
07-23-2006, 03:41 AM
One thing I don't particularly care for is the etiquette of not quitting when you're ahead. I understand why it is, but when i win $20 or $40, I want to keep what I won and use it to buy lunch or some DVDs or something. Not risk losing it again.


I was never a big gambler, preferring like you to play for so-called chump change, but the action always seemed more exciting when cash was involved. I agree with you about quitting ahead. I always had trouble doing that because I have never wanted to be considered a hard-ass and wanted at all times to be loved or at least adored by all, including the guy I'm beating on the table.

I have always been strong out of the gate. I think I get bored (or scared), once the match goes beyond a certain point. One method I used with some success was to tell whoever I was playing that I only had time for a certain amount of games and was going to quit at that time, ahead or behind. I'd say it was something really important, and stress that it had to happen. But that didn't always work.

Several times, with some success, I actually pre-arranged with the owner of the room, for whom I worked on occasion, to announce out loud that I've received a telephone call, right around the time I'd mentioned earlier as the time I had to quit. Then I'd go to the phone with my opponent watching or listening and I'd start acting all stressed out telling the phantom on the other end of the line to please not worry, that I'll be there as soon as THIS game is over. That usually worked, but it's not like I adopted it as a regular habit. It was a bit too contrived. I should have done it more often, though, because more times than I care to count, when I didn't quite while ahead I'd wind up letting my opponent break even, then go on to lose as well. Sick, mentally sick, no doubt. I believe in the vast amount of cases that gambling in pool among players of the same caliber is mostly an ego thing, but I also believe there is more than one factor at work in this, as with most things. Interesting topic.

Tommy Joe

Tommy Joe
07-23-2006, 03:57 AM
Herewith is the gambling mentality -- and resolve, stubborness, pride, etc-- of some of the players I knew. If you played any of the following players, the only way they would quit is if they were broke or the joint closed. They were all "straight tickets." Once they got on the table, you would have to break them or they were going to break you. One or two barrel shots were not their style. I'm sure there is a connection between their greatness and their stubborn resolve. There were more guys like this, but these are all I remember at the moment:

John Cannonball Lefty Chapman
Keith Earthquake McReady
Grady the Professor Mathews
Jim Pretty Boy Floyd Mataya
St. Louie Louie Roberts
William Corn Bread Red Burge
Cole Dickson
Hippie Jimmy Reid
Leonard Bugs Rucker
Greg Big Train Stevens
Bob Black Bart Ogborn
Denny Searcy
Javenly Youngblood Washington
A young me

Does anybody want to call those guys "suckers?"

the Beard


No argument, but I think when you say none of those guys would quit you should add, "at the game of their choice." My uncle ran 69 and out on McCready and McCready quit immediatley. Of course he came in wanting to play nine ball, so I assume had he gotten his wish he probably would have played until he won or lost it all, as you say. Same thing with Denny Searcy. He came into our room wanting to play one pocket, but I had been forwarned. He agreed to play me a game of straight pool and I beat him. He quit. I was glad, because I knew he was after the one pocket game, which I never would have played with him, and rarely played with anyone. Maybe had McCready continued playing my uncle straight pool he would have wound up winning, but I doubt it. Had Searcy continued playing me straight he might have won in the end, because, as I'm weirdly proud of mentioning, I'm a mental loser of sorts. Anyway, no argument, those guys you mentioned are sturdy gamblers, but it helps if they're playing the game of their choice.

Tommy Joe

SUPERSTAR
07-23-2006, 07:04 AM
Playing someone for money in pool is all about WINNING money.
I have seen people ignore this fact, if only for the reason that they want to be considered the best pool player in the room, if not one of the best pool players locally.
TOTAL MORONS IMO.
These are guys giving out spots they can't win with, almost as if, they would rather give the weight and lose, then play a more reasonable game and win.

I like playing for money. I have from day one. But to be quite honest, if i'm not playing for at least something, i get quite bored and see no purpose for playing at all. I'd rather not play.
I also hate giving my money to someone else, so that puts me in the situation of picking my games very carefully. You will never see me getting out of line, giving a spot to someone only for the glory and acclaim.

I have no desire to prove anything to anyone. My sole interest is that when i make a game, i have a high % of winning that game in the long run.
If there is someone who i play better then, and they stubbornly refuse to believe it, and they offer me a spot, you can be sure that i will gladly take it without having my EGO suffer in the least. Those situations never really happen anymore, but when they did, and at the end i am sitting there with a pocket full of cash, and they are broke, i don't have any guilt whatsoever.
To me, people that are stuck in the whole glory/pissing contest aspect of pool, deserved to lose if it infringes upon their ability to make a game.

There is a guy who plays out of our room, who is one of the biggest gamblers around, and he is not of a high level AT ALL. If you were to ask him or anyone else if he plays high level, the answer would have to be no, and he would tell you that he stinks. Yet, he has one of the highest win % in the room because he admits this to himself, and is completely aware at what speed he plays, and negotiates his games accordingly.
I have to give him all the credit in the world, because while the other guys in the pool hall are trying to take the title of who is the best, who criticize the ones who play better then them (jealousy maybe, or perhaps envy), or are too busy in a pissing contest with people at their own level, he ignores all that junk and just goes about making games, and making money.
He doesn't get side tracked by all that garbage, and goes about his business.

Now it's perfectly ok to want to be the best, and want to climb the totem pole of ability, and the only way to achieve that, is to play better players, and take risks. But he has never wanted that, and it has only made him money, while others are fiercely critical of how he stinks and how they play better, and they are the ones who lose all the time because they can't SEE, and are blinded by other things. But that's another topic altogether, reserved for another thread.

I will restate, that if it's pool for money, then it's about WINNING money and not about anything else.

BillyKoda
07-23-2006, 07:50 AM
I don't gamble much because playing for money changes my game for the worse. I never play someone I don't know for money because I trust no-one, never been hustled that way. I have been known to take a few guys for $10 here and $20 there but that is after seeing their game on separate days and in separate venues. I play with a group of 10 or so players and our biggest wager is usually a quarter a game between us but when new blood comes in I let the gamblers in the group take them on until I know the new guys speed.

There have been exceptions to my rules but it all depends on my confidence at the time a proposal is made. Some days I just can't miss and I will gamble on those days.

To me pool is for fun and investing is to make money.

freddy the beard
07-24-2006, 02:59 AM
[QUOTE=freddy the beard]Herewith is the gambling mentality -- and resolve, stubborness, pride, etc-- of some of the players I knew. If you played any of the following players, the only way they would quit is if they were broke or the joint closed. They were all "straight tickets." Once they got on the table, you would have to break them or they were going to break you. One or two barrel shots were not their style. I'm sure there is a connection between their greatness and their stubborn resolve. There were more guys like this, but these are all I remember at the moment:

John Cannonball Lefty Chapman
Keith Earthquake McReady
Grady the Professor Mathews
Jim Pretty Boy Floyd Mataya
St. Louie Louie Roberts
William Corn Bread Red Burge
Cole Dickson
Hippie Jimmy Reid
Leonard Bugs Rucker
Greg Big Train Stevens
Bob Black Bart Ogborn
Denny Searcy
Javenly Youngblood Washington
A young me

Does anybody want to call those guys "suckers?"

the Beard

Quote Superstar
Playing someone for money in pool is all about WINNING money.
I have seen people ignore this fact, if only for the reason that they want to be considered the best pool player in the room, if not one of the best pool players locally.
TOTAL MORONS IMO.

I guess I just never realized that to play for self-realization, pride, glory, self-challenge, and championing the pioneering spirit, had become such an outmoded notion. I had several students who only wanted to improve so that they could trap guys and win money, they couldnt pay me enough and I chased them all away.

the Beard

SUPERSTAR
07-24-2006, 12:08 PM
I guess I just never realized that to play for self-realization, pride, glory, self-challenge, and championing the pioneering spirit, had become such an outmoded notion. I had several students who only wanted to improve so that they could trap guys and win money, they couldnt pay me enough and I chased them all away.

the Beard
I guess i left it very vague. My bad.
You are talking about aspiring poolplayers. I was not.

I can totally understand where you are coming from.
I know lots of players that play for the pride, glory, self challenge and realization. I also know that the majority of them that i have know have gone BROKE, or busted their backers in their pursuit of the dream.
It is the only way to learn, and POOLPLAYERS do learn.
Now i won't say that i haven't gotten up there and played whomever because i thought i could win, or even when i knew it was stacked against me because i have. Even when i was dead tired or in a game i couldn't fade, i won some of them, and i got crushed in others. That mentality definitely has it's time and place for someone that wants to better their game.
You can't progress until you've challenged yourself, and found out where you stand.


And YES there are some glorious moments sometimes, but i can guarantee you, there are just as many crappy ones as well. If your fortunate, the good ones will outweigh the bad.

So in the grand scheme of things, MY gambling mentality has changed somewhat (which is what i should have said in the first place), to one that has some responsibility, and one who isn't the free spirited gypsy like i once was. So when i pick my games, i pick them carefully cause you know what, i HATE being broke. So it's allllll about the money. Glory doesn't fit into in anymore.
But even you said a "YOUNG ME" Why did it change?

I guess it all depends on what type of person you are and what makes you tick.
Different motives for different people.

When i said morons, i was talking about the guys who don't even TRY to make a game in relation to their speed. I'm talking about the suckers who will get up there on a bet simply because you said they couldn't do something. The WANNABES who think they play good, but stink, but will argue with you all night trying to justify how good they play to the point of making a bad game just to prove it. Those guys ARE morons, cause they never learn.

It's one thing to test out the waters, and put yourself in situations that will benefit your game, it's another situation altogether when you voluntarily flush yourself down the toilet all the time because of a bruised ego.;)

HittMan
07-24-2006, 12:32 PM
That's what we called them in my neck of the woods. We worshipped the hustler's bravado as well...but...I have to say...it was almost 100% bullsh*t.
That's a dandy list of hustler's...most of them stone cold suckers...for the "easy life" of pocket billiards. Can you think of any harder work? And for that committment you got a nickname...that's about it...especially if you weren't REAL careful.
Maybe it will be better in the future.
Eventually we all have to look in the mirror and accept that what we see largely results from our own actions.
JMO...you be the judge

ShootingArts
07-24-2006, 02:57 PM
Freddy,

I bought your book and learned a bit from it. I suspect that there is still a lot more in there to learn too.

However I can't help noticing that you are taking an opposite position on gambling than you took just a month ago. Has your opinion really changed or will you bounce back to the other position here or on the one pocket board as is convenient?

Hu


[QUOTE=freddy the beard]Herewith is the gambling mentality -- and resolve, stubborness, pride, etc-- of some of the players I knew. If you played any of the following players, the only way they would quit is if they were broke or the joint closed. They were all "straight tickets." Once they got on the table, you would have to break them or they were going to break you. One or two barrel shots were not their style. I'm sure there is a connection between their greatness and their stubborn resolve. There were more guys like this, but these are all I remember at the moment:

John Cannonball Lefty Chapman
Keith Earthquake McReady
Grady the Professor Mathews
Jim Pretty Boy Floyd Mataya
St. Louie Louie Roberts
William Corn Bread Red Burge
Cole Dickson
Hippie Jimmy Reid
Leonard Bugs Rucker
Greg Big Train Stevens
Bob Black Bart Ogborn
Denny Searcy
Javenly Youngblood Washington
A young me

Does anybody want to call those guys "suckers?"

the Beard

Quote Superstar
Playing someone for money in pool is all about WINNING money.
I have seen people ignore this fact, if only for the reason that they want to be considered the best pool player in the room, if not one of the best pool players locally.
TOTAL MORONS IMO.

I guess I just never realized that to play for self-realization, pride, glory, self-challenge, and championing the pioneering spirit, had become such an outmoded notion. I had several students who only wanted to improve so that they could trap guys and win money, they couldnt pay me enough and I chased them all away.

the Beard

freddy the beard
07-24-2006, 04:35 PM
Freddy,

I bought your book and learned a bit from it. I suspect that there is still a lot more in there to learn too.
However I can't help noticing that you are taking an opposite position on gambling than you took just a month ago. Has your opinion really changed or will you bounce back to the other position here or on the one pocket board as is convenient?

Hu


[QUOTE=freddy the beard]

To Superstar, you noticed I said "Young me," good, that denoted exactly what I meant. That is how I used to be. At 65 I no longer have such a gunfighter mentality. My point was, if you want to be a player you must be a risk taker.
To Shooting Arts, what was my previous position? You never offered what I supposedly said previously. My opinions are usually hard-core. I really aint noted for being a windsock. My philosophy has always been the gunfight. Although lately I do do a little more ambushing and shooting in the back.

the Beard

Harvywallbanger
07-24-2006, 04:51 PM
I'm a terrible gambler! I always want to play someone better than me and I usually play untill I loose everything in my pocket. I won over $2,000 at the casino and gave it all right back to them within 1 hour even after I told myself I was not going to loose more than 100 or two. Somehow I forgot my advise in about 5 min. and went straight to the high limit area. I won $900 in a $200 sit n go playing poker online. I told myself now its time to play smart. 5 min. later I found myself in an ALL IN cash game and lost over $700 in one hand! Its been like that my whole life. I win alot and I want more...more, more, more.:(

ShootingArts
07-24-2006, 07:06 PM
Freddy,

Here is the quote from your earlier post. I didn't chase it down here too since the one pocket board moves slower and is easier to find things on. You state you crossposted it to both boards. Sure looks like you favor the hustler out to "WIN MONEY" and the hustler mentality. Dividing everyone into hustlers or "square-johns" is another strong indication of where you stood then.

(quote from Freddy's post)
"It depends on whether you have a huster's mentality or a square-johns. A hustler is looking to create action, ALLOW action, and WIN MONEY. If you are hanging in the poolroom with a hustler's mentality then you should learn to hate the knockers and the mother hens that run around looking to "protect" their flock. If on the other hand you want to make sure that every game is exactly even (and who are you to make that determination), and take it personal when you see someone going "off," why did you pick a poolroom to spend your time in the first place?"
(end quote)



There is a world of difference between gambling and hustling. A hustle involves a con of some sort. You indicate very high ethics in several recent posts on this board and I genuinely want to know which is the real Freddy. I am interested in your second banking book which I understand is coming out soon but at the same time I vote on many things the only way I can, with my pocketbook.

Hu



[QUOTE=ShootingArts]To Shooting Arts, what was my previous position? You never offered what I supposedly said previously. My opinions are usually hard-core. I really aint noted for being a windsock. My philosophy has always been the gunfight. Although lately I do do a little more ambushing and shooting in the back.

the Beard

PoolSleuth
07-24-2006, 07:37 PM
Herewith is the gambling mentality -- and resolve, stubborness, pride, etc-- of some of the players I knew. If you played any of the following players, the only way they would quit is if they were broke or the joint closed. They were all "straight tickets." Once they got on the table, you would have to break them or they were going to break you. One or two barrel shots were not their style. I'm sure there is a connection between their greatness and their stubborn resolve. There were more guys like this, but these are all I remember at the moment:

John Cannonball Lefty Chapman
Keith Earthquake McReady
Grady the Professor Mathews
Jim Pretty Boy Floyd Mataya
St. Louie Louie Roberts
William Corn Bread Red Burge
Cole Dickson
Hippie Jimmy Reid
Leonard Bugs Rucker
Greg Big Train Stevens
Bob Black Bart Ogborn
Denny Searcy
Javenly Youngblood Washington
A young me

Does anybody want to call those guys "suckers?"

the Beard

I call them Cold Blooded Gamblers that I have seen a the Horse Track, and the Tables in Sin City. Think sometime the Gambling is more important than the Winning, it is the Game that Drives them.

Remember a Road Player who use to ccome throught LA is the Late 70's, he won big at Night at Pool, and Lost during the Day at Santa Anita, or hollywood Park...

Ummagumma
07-24-2006, 10:06 PM
I was never a big gambler, preferring like you to play for so-called chump change, but the action always seemed more exciting when cash was involved. I agree with you about quitting ahead. I always had trouble doing that because I have never wanted to be considered a hard-ass and wanted at all times to be loved or at least adored by all, including the guy I'm beating on the table.

Also, someone told me that if you quit while ahead, you'll get a rep and no one will want to play you for money again. Of course in my case, since I'm playing for small change, it would typically not be an issue.

Indeed, the action is more exciting when more money is involved. A lot of people thrive on it, the risk, the rush, the adrenaline.

I have always been strong out of the gate. I think I get bored (or scared), once the match goes beyond a certain point. One method I used with some success was to tell whoever I was playing that I only had time for a certain amount of games and was going to quit at that time, ahead or behind. I'd say it was something really important, and stress that it had to happen. But that didn't always work.

Several times, with some success, I actually pre-arranged with the owner of the room, for whom I worked on occasion, to announce out loud that I've received a telephone call, right around the time I'd mentioned earlier as the time I had to quit. Then I'd go to the phone with my opponent watching or listening and I'd start acting all stressed out telling the phantom on the other end of the line to please not worry, that I'll be there as soon as THIS game is over. That usually worked, but it's not like I adopted it as a regular habit. It was a bit too contrived. I should have done it more often, though, because more times than I care to count, when I didn't quite while ahead I'd wind up letting my opponent break even, then go on to lose as well. Sick, mentally sick, no doubt. I believe in the vast amount of cases that gambling in pool among players of the same caliber is mostly an ego thing, but I also believe there is more than one factor at work in this, as with most things. Interesting topic.

The only time that I played a money game (other than with my regular friends), I got the opponent's agreement beforehand that the winner would not be obligated to play any games if requested by the loser. As long as everyone knows and agrees, then everything should work out okay.

freddy the beard
07-25-2006, 03:08 AM
Freddy,

Sure looks like you favor the hustler out to "WIN MONEY" and the hustler mentality...

(quote from Freddy's post)
"It depends on whether you have a huster's mentality or a square-johns. A hustler is looking to create action, ALLOW action, and WIN MONEY. If you are hanging in the poolroom with a hustler's mentality then you should learn to hate the knockers and the mother hens that run around looking to "protect" their flock. If on the other hand you want to make sure that every game is exactly even (and who are you to make that determination), and take it personal when you see someone going "off," why did you pick a poolroom to spend your time in the first place?"
(end quote)

There is a world of difference between gambling and hustling. A hustle involves a con of some sort. You indicate very high ethics in several recent posts on this board and I genuinely want to know which is the real Freddy...

Hu

[QUOTE=freddy the beard]

Hu,
Let me clear this up. High ethics was not a big part of my pool playing career.
While I respect high ethics, the reality of pool hustling and eating every day, caused me to do many things I wished I hadnt. If you are aspiring to become a top player and top gambler/hustler you must work on both sides of the street. To be a top player/gambler you must be a gunfighter that plays tough action and who is not afraid to take a little the worst of it. Someone who is willing to fight to the death. However, and here comes reality again, in order to subsidize and finance these noble ideals, you must play "sucker" action periodically. That involves conning and hustling and robbing some opponents in order to pay for those tough-action sessions. So in my case, while I loved tough-action with champions, I was also a seasoned "lemon" hustler like Bunny Rogoff (someone who didnt like tough action and only sought out "lemon" scores). I hope that explains my philosophy a little better.

the Beard

clolson
07-25-2006, 03:11 AM
i will gamble with anyone in 6 ball......if i get the break and last 3 for 1dollar a game.

ROFLMAO.



nah meanz.

catscradle
07-25-2006, 04:20 AM
... I usually don't care so much about the amount of money I'm betting, I just want to beat everyone...

Gerry
Then why do you waste time and money gambling????

ironman
07-25-2006, 04:25 AM
[QUOTE=ShootingArts]Freddy,

Sure looks like you favor the hustler out to "WIN MONEY" and the hustler mentality...

(quote from Freddy's post)
"It depends on whether you have a huster's mentality or a square-johns. A hustler is looking to create action, ALLOW action, and WIN MONEY. If you are hanging in the poolroom with a hustler's mentality then you should learn to hate the knockers and the mother hens that run around looking to "protect" their flock. If on the other hand you want to make sure that every game is exactly even (and who are you to make that determination), and take it personal when you see someone going "off," why did you pick a poolroom to spend your time in the first place?"
(end quote)

There is a world of difference between gambling and hustling. A hustle involves a con of some sort. You indicate very high ethics in several recent posts on this board and I genuinely want to know which is the real Freddy...

Hu



Hu,
Let me clear this up. High ethics was not a big part of my pool playing career.
While I respect high ethics, the reality of pool hustling and eating every day, caused me to do many things I wished I hadnt. If you are aspiring to become a top player and top gambler/hustler you must work on both sides of the street. To be a top player/gambler you must be a gunfighter that plays tough action and who is not afraid to take a little the worst of it. Someone who is willing to fight to the death. However, and here comes reality again, in order to subsidize and finance these noble ideals, you must play "sucker" action periodically. That involves conning and hustling and robbing some opponents in order to pay for those tough-action sessions. So in my case, while I loved tough-action with champions, I was also a seasoned "lemon" hustler like Bunny Rogoff (someone who didnt like tough action and only sought out "lemon" scores). I hope that explains my philosophy a little better.

the Beard

Bunny (Pots & Pans ) had it down. Most never knew what had happened to them, when he was done. With his act though, almost every victim got exactly wht he deserved because they thought they were the ones hustling, or stealing from some old drunk. Nobody screams louder than a thief.
A game is not a game unless two people play. Their is larceny on both sides, or the game never would have taken place.
I tink Freddy could explain his position over and over and the majority would never understand it.

Tommy Joe
07-25-2006, 04:30 AM
I got the opponent's agreement beforehand that the winner would not be obligated to play any games if requested by the loser. As long as everyone knows and agrees, then everything should work out okay.


It's amazing the number of entertaining stories that come from the world of gambling. It amazes me how people are able to enter into bets without first laying down hard rules - and making them clear to all.

If I make an insanely stupid bet, that's my doing. But, for the sake of my own skin (as well as fair-play and honesty), I'm going to lay down the rules first. Wording is so important that putting it down on tape in front of witnesses might not be a bad idea. Of course, even then the delusional loser could challenge the rules, claiming you changed the tape when he wasn't looking. hah hah hah

Your method is smart. But let's remember that gambling makes people temporarily insane - especially when they're losing. Just because they agree with the rules when they're sane doesn't mean they'll stick to them once they go nuts. Maybe that's why some societies frown on gambling - it produces too many losers, and too much temporary insanity. Society go boom boom. ......

Tommy Joe

JCIN
07-25-2006, 04:39 AM
To paraphrase a movie line:

" I don't play for glory or some Vegas pipe dream...I play for Rent!"

As I have gotten older I have come to realize most of the guys who talk about the glory of the "Hustling Life" and all that comes with it are either broke or broken down.

The smart ones take what they have learned on the road, such as, how to read people, how to talk to people, and how to nut up and perform under pressure, and leverage that in the " Real " world.

Having said that, most of us being Americans love the idea of the rambling gambling road warrior out there living on heart and determination, I know I do. But I also know from experience ( a good Friend) it is sad to see that guy when he is 50 and realizes it is getting late and he is way behind the curve.

It seems most of the great champions of our game have had to travel that path for at least part of their life, so I guess there must be something to the pressure of the road seperating the Wheat from the Chaffe.

Gerry
07-25-2006, 04:54 AM
Then why do you waste time and money gambling????

simply, there are some players I wanted to test myself against, and you can't get to them without betting something.

as far as "wasting time, and money" you said that not me. I make a lot of money in my chosen professions, and pool has always been relaxation, a challenge, a diversion, entertainment, and a life long passion of mine.....not how I make a living. I'd never consider my time playing pool as "wasted"

Gerry

Tommy Joe
07-25-2006, 05:25 AM
A game is not a game unless two people play. There is larceny on both sides, or the game never would have taken place.


I agree. But recently I saw a post in this group from a guy who said he disliked hustlers. I don't like them either. I've done it myself, but was very bad at it, probably because I didn't enjoy it. And I'm glad I was bad at it.

What I really hate is the full-time hustler with the annoying persistence of a panhandler. Like for instance, maybe you haven't played in years and now you walk into a poolroom for a beer and to say hello to a few people, and here comes some guy asking you to play. He's on your level - or above - even back when you were playing. You tell him you haven't played in years, and he instantly replies that he hasn't either, but you know for a fact he hangs in that poolroom nearly every day. I don't blame the guy for asking, for trying to get a game. But I despise that sort of ritualistic cliche hollow hustler bullshit.

Tommy Joe

ironman
07-25-2006, 07:20 AM
I agree. But recently I saw a post in this group from a guy who said he disliked hustlers. I don't like them either. I've done it myself, but was very bad at it, probably because I didn't enjoy it. And I'm glad I was bad at it.

What I really hate is the full-time hustler with the annoying persistence of a panhandler. Like for instance, maybe you haven't played in years and now you walk into a poolroom for a beer and to say hello to a few people, and here comes some guy asking you to play. He's on your level - or above - even back when you were playing. You tell him you haven't played in years, and he instantly replies that he hasn't either, but you know for a fact he hangs in that poolroom nearly every day. I don't blame the guy for asking, for trying to get a game. But I despise that sort of ritualistic cliche hollow hustler bullshit.

Tommy Joe

Many pool rooms have the little Weasle hanging around hoping to find a wallet on the floor. They can be a little entertaining at first, but like a child looking for attention, it can get very old. The problem is that there is always someone to listen and eventually buy into their BS and take the bait. Once they let hime get under their skin, the trap is in motion and the one listening acts on his emotions and ends up being the sucker.
Still, it takes all kinds to make a pool room what it is. A pool room could be a great setting for a sit-com.
For those who think the hustlers of today are hard-core, they should have known some of the real ones, like UJ Puckett or Pots and Pans. When they walked in though, you could just about et that things were going to start happening.

ShootingArts
07-25-2006, 07:30 AM
Freddy,

Thanks for a straight answer. Every time I read another post by a youngster dreaming of the romantic life on the road I want to load them up for a week of fun on the road staying in the malibu hilton and eating whatever is cheapest once a day. Dirty clothes and three or four days without a shower might bring a little reality home too.

I don't think there is a hard core gambler alive that has been at it long that hasn't went down to broke and having to play for little more than pocket change to survive. With a name you might find a backer. Without a name . . .

Hu


[QUOTE=ShootingArts]Freddy,

Sure looks like you favor the hustler out to "WIN MONEY" and the hustler mentality...

(quote from Freddy's post)
"It depends on whether you have a huster's mentality or a square-johns. A hustler is looking to create action, ALLOW action, and WIN MONEY. If you are hanging in the poolroom with a hustler's mentality then you should learn to hate the knockers and the mother hens that run around looking to "protect" their flock. If on the other hand you want to make sure that every game is exactly even (and who are you to make that determination), and take it personal when you see someone going "off," why did you pick a poolroom to spend your time in the first place?"
(end quote)

There is a world of difference between gambling and hustling. A hustle involves a con of some sort. You indicate very high ethics in several recent posts on this board and I genuinely want to know which is the real Freddy...

Hu



Hu,
Let me clear this up. High ethics was not a big part of my pool playing career.
While I respect high ethics, the reality of pool hustling and eating every day, caused me to do many things I wished I hadnt. If you are aspiring to become a top player and top gambler/hustler you must work on both sides of the street. To be a top player/gambler you must be a gunfighter that plays tough action and who is not afraid to take a little the worst of it. Someone who is willing to fight to the death. However, and here comes reality again, in order to subsidize and finance these noble ideals, you must play "sucker" action periodically. That involves conning and hustling and robbing some opponents in order to pay for those tough-action sessions. So in my case, while I loved tough-action with champions, I was also a seasoned "lemon" hustler like Bunny Rogoff (someone who didnt like tough action and only sought out "lemon" scores). I hope that explains my philosophy a little better.

the Beard