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Solartje
02-06-2006, 12:52 PM
hiya all,

wanted to post this in a pm first, but it was so long, and it might be interesting to see what other think of this too.

now for myself i was wondering. I am a 100% pure natural player, i reached B level without ever hadding a coatch, a trainingpartner, reading a book, i just learned it the hard way, play play play for 10years and analising snooker video's (as thats the only thing close to pool i could watch on the tv, (bbc)). Now a natural player has ALOT more problems to regain his game, as a technical. A technical player can just analise every part and check the problem. A natural just trusts his game, but has nothing to fall on when his game lets him down. Now i know the best player is a combo of natural + technical, and i was wondering; should i give myself a 6 month technical training, so in case my natural game gives up, i can use the technical game to still win the match (getting there, like explained in another post); and give myself confidence again , untill my natural game has it back in track?

only time i played my game and even above was during a match where they played my favorit song, cleared the 9ball rack in a amazing way, 5cussion positional shots, jump shot and banking at the same time, tough Forcing power strokes i HAD to play to get on the next ball, just amazing. MY gf said at that moment, she recognised the old solly again, but i lost it after the song was over.

ive asked the best guy on the tournament (top16 national player)to analise my bad game for some racks after the tournament, and he couldnt really tell what was wrong either. (unless maybe the mental part of not having a B plan incase my natural games gives up) i was aiming straight, my stroke was perfect, ive changed my griphand like snapshot suggested; i could do all the usual stroke drills without a problem, and i use the right grip position every time now, my stance, everything is exactly like in the textbooks. So its pure mental. ive read some books about training the mind to recall, other mental books , but i just cant manage to use what ive read. (maybe my stuburn egotripping character makes it harder for me then others to practice what people preach.) i Felt very bad at the moment, but i got SO drunk with my girlfriend, and instead of playing ive giving her her first real LONG training session (she's wanting to start playing pool at a competition level too), and im not gonna stay awake for weeks braking my head on it, i know ive got a A level game. but the most important bad thing, is that i dont got a consistent playing lvl. Yesterday i was a D player, others days im a A player. And it changes on weekly basis.

i know sometimes u just have a bad day, but my game just changes TO often to be normal. ive got what u call, no consistency AT all. 'example, there is this 10rack drill, where u breake, get ball in hand and play 14-1 till max 20balls) and check how much balls u can pot. (max =100) . every time i make either 2 balls or i do 15 or 20 (depending on my breake ball) . no consistency AT all. Last week i played in the same place, same tournament, and i won vs all the local national team players, guys who are all A level's, and now i get kicked by every C player that was in the tournament (i havent played./trained in between the 2 tournaments.)

what ive tried:
- let someone check my stance,stroke etc. nothing
- do all the stroke drills to check for flawls, nothing
- play with a new cue; nothing
- stopped training for 3 weeks (had a accident)
- do a 8hour training session when i was back on my feet , nothing
- read books, dvd's etc about mental game , nothing (but honestly, might not have trained what they preach long enough to have succes... i havent seen any change (even the smalest) so not sure its working...)
- tried alcohol (small dosis, but enough to make me more in my element) nothing
- play like it was just a recreatonal game, nothing to lose or gain, nothing
- i have no stress AT all anymore, mastered that 6 months ago
- play my favorit song (only this thing worked for 1 rack)

now my question:
should i get a Technical game as a plan B, in case my natural game ****s up? (and what is exactly what u call a technical player? (i do know all the techniques used in pool, but i supose that doesnt make u a technical player...) or maybe just carry a mp3 payer, play some nice songs before the match and see how it works? or other advice?

ive alreade posted a almost similar post before, and got some good advice there, but its not working and just getting worse and worse. im not panicking, but id like to have a plan B to get there (win even ifu play bad) , in case this happens in the national rankings, and im sure it will happen eventually, if not next week, then next month.


i got a new ranking next week, and for now ive planned not to play pool till then. Maybe ive just read TO much, learned TO many info, played TO much pool, watched TO much info for my brain to handle. maybe my brain just says; WOW U used all what uve learned without knowing it, but now u got all the info on the the techniques i used for so many years, my brain isnt sure wheither i should play natural or technical. Bringing my natural down, and bringing my technical knowledge up, but lowering my total of these 2. I know one thing, when i am in the zone: i am 2000000000% natural. i dont even think (consiously) of what english to use, and i play VERY VERY fast, just 1 or sometimes not even one adressing stroke, and i play like ronnie when he made his record 4minut 147 snooker brake, if not faster. i even play some shots left handed instead if using the rest to make it faster..... its SO weird...

added: i just reminded me of something that does help in some situations; play straight pool for 30 minuts, and then play the usual 8 or 9 ball. PLaying some 15+ breaks helps me find my game, but i can ask in a tournament to shoot 30minuts before each match or even do this in the middle of a 9ball game when i lose it... so its not really a option, even if it helps

Cameron Smith
02-06-2006, 01:13 PM
It certainly wouldn't hurt to get a few lessons to learn the technical side of the game. I think everyone needs them at one point to push them over the line into greatness. Stephan Hendry, Ronnie O'Sullovan, John Higgins, they all have coaches.

Other than that I don't know what to say. I play very fast too typically so that I outrun the negative thoughts so to speak. The only other thing I do is I convince myself to not even consider missing the shot, unless I am thinking of a two way shot.

Snapshot9
02-06-2006, 01:15 PM
Just play Pool. I was mostly a natural player in my 20's. I think by the time someone reaches 50, we are all 'logic' players. Why? Because of competition over the years, and the need to analyze different situations on the table. The choice isn't about natural vs. technical, the choice is about whether you shoot strictly from feel as opposed to making conscious decisions about your shots. Technical is about scientific oriented information, and logic is about evaluation and decision-making. What you base your decision-making on is entirely up to you. Bottom line, most shots in Pool are just educated guesses. You can not make a conscious decision to be a natural player, it just happens. They are judged to be natural players from their style of play, and AT THE ACCELERATED RATE BY WHICH THEY LEARN THE SPORT. Anyone else that thinks they are a natural is simply playing without thinking about it, playing by recognition, but that does not mean they learn the sport at a VERY RAPID PACE.
Choose to learn by the method that is easiest for you to learn by, that you can learn the fastest from, and then temper it with added knowledge you pick up along the way.

sixpack
02-06-2006, 01:19 PM
hiya all,

wanted to post this in a pm first, but it was so long, and it might be interesting to see what other think of this too.

now for myself i was wondering. I am a 100% pure natural player, i reached B level without ever hadding a coatch, a trainingpartner, reading a book, i just learned it the hard way, play play play for 10years and analising snooker video's (as thats the only thing close to pool i could watch on the tv, (bbc)). Now a natural player has ALOT more problems to regain his game, as a technical. A technical player can just analise every part and check the problem. A natural just trusts his game, but has nothing to fall on when his game lets him down. Now i know the best player is a combo of natural + technical, and i was wondering; should i give myself a 6 month technical training, so in case my natural game gives up, i can use the technical game to still win the match (getting there, like explained in another post); and give myself confidence again , untill my natural game has it back in track?

only time i played my game and even above was during a match where they played my favorit song, cleared the 9ball rack in a amazing way, 5cussion positional shots, jump shot and banking at the same time, tough Forcing power strokes i HAD to play to get on the next ball, just amazing. MY gf said at that moment, she recognised the old solly again, but i lost it after the song was over.

ive asked the best guy on the tournament (top16 national player)to analise my bad game for some racks after the tournament, and he couldnt really tell what was wrong either. (unless maybe the mental part of not having a B plan incase my natural games gives up) i was aiming straight, my stroke was perfect, ive changed my griphand like snapshot suggested; i could do all the usual stroke drills without a problem, and i use the right grip position every time now, my stance, everything is exactly like in the textbooks. So its pure mental. ive read some books about training the mind to recall, other mental books , but i just cant manage to use what ive read. (maybe my stuburn egotripping character makes it harder for me then others to practice what people preach.) i Felt very bad at the moment, but i got SO drunk with my girlfriend, and instead of playing ive giving her her first real LONG training session (she's wanting to start playing pool at a competition level too), and im not gonna stay awake for weeks braking my head on it, i know ive got a A level game. but the most important bad thing, is that i dont got a consistent playing lvl. Yesterday i was a D player, others days im a A player. And it changes on weekly basis.

i know sometimes u just have a bad day, but my game just changes TO often to be normal. ive got what u call, no consistency AT all. 'example, there is this 10rack drill, where u breake, get ball in hand and play 14-1 till max 20balls) and check how much balls u can pot. (max =100) . every time i make either 2 balls or i do 15 or 20 (depending on my breake ball) . no consistency AT all. Last week i played in the same place, same tournament, and i won vs all the local national team players, guys who are all A level's, and now i get kicked by every C player that was in the tournament (i havent played./trained in between the 2 tournaments.)

what ive tried:
- let someone check my stance,stroke etc. nothing
- do all the stroke drills to check for flawls, nothing
- play with a new cue; nothing
- stopped training for 3 weeks (had a accident)
- do a 8hour training session when i was back on my feet , nothing
- read books, dvd's etc about mental game , nothing (but honestly, might not have trained what they preach long enough to have succes... i havent seen any change (even the smalest) so not sure its working...)
- tried alcohol (small dosis, but enough to make me more in my element) nothing
- play like it was just a recreatonal game, nothing to lose or gain, nothing
- i have no stress AT all anymore, mastered that 6 months ago
- play my favorit song (only this thing worked for 1 rack)

now my question:
should i get a Technical game as a plan B, in case my natural game ****s up? (and what is exactly what u call a technical player? (i do know all the techniques used in pool, but i supose that doesnt make u a technical player...) or maybe just carry a mp3 payer, play some nice songs before the match and see how it works? or other advice?

ive alreade posted a almost similar post before, and got some good advice there, but its not working and just getting worse and worse. im not panicking, but id like to have a plan B to get there (win even ifu play bad) , in case this happens in the national rankings, and im sure it will happen eventually, if not next week, then next month.


i got a new ranking next week, and for now ive planned not to play pool till then. Maybe ive just read TO much, learned TO many info, played TO much pool, watched TO much info for my brain to handle. maybe my brain just says; WOW U used all what uve learned without knowing it, but now u got all the info on the the techniques i used for so many years, my brain isnt sure wheither i should play natural or technical. Bringing my natural down, and bringing my technical knowledge up, but lowering my total of these 2. I know one thing, when i am in the zone: i am 2000000000% natural. i dont even think (consiously) of what english to use, and i play VERY VERY fast, just 1 or sometimes not even one adressing stroke, and i play like ronnie when he made his record 4minut 147 snooker brake, if not faster. i even play some shots left handed instead if using the rest to make it faster..... its SO weird...

added: i just reminded me of something that does help in some situations; play straight pool for 30 minuts, and then play the usual 8 or 9 ball. PLaying some 15+ breaks helps me find my game, but i can ask in a tournament to shoot 30minuts before each match or even do this in the middle of a 9ball game when i lose it... so its not really a option, even if it helps


One thing you might try is to have the top player watch you and tell you what to shoot and how to shoot it for each shot. If your consistency goes up, your problem could lie with either pattern play or not having a clear picture of what you're trying to accomplish when you step to the table. Either thing can cause inconsistency.

What you're describing sounds like you take a couple of shots to get focused, if you happen to make them, you're out, if you don't, you never catch a groove.

Cheers,
RC

Gregg
02-06-2006, 01:20 PM
Two of the guys I used to play with who were both as about as good a pool player as I can hope to become.

I know one has massive library of books, tapes and DVDs. I know this because I have borrowed most of them at one point.

I remember one time asking the other guy if he had any materials, and he mentioned a small booklet that someone gave him.

Both really have arrived at the same point, but obviously took different routes to get there.

Books and training can help, but nothing replaces table time. Pool is a game of feel, and nothing you can read or view will replace table time to improve your game.

Tbeaux
02-06-2006, 01:30 PM
Solly,

First recuperation from an injury is NOT relaxing!:rolleyes:

Regarding being a technical player: 1) Have you studied and tried SIMPLE systems like ghost ball,etc (think you probably have)? What results?
2) Have you tried any more complicated stuff (kind of stuff professor Colin posts)? What results?
If you're missing simple shots go back and review simple systems. If you're missing complicated shots go back and practice cue ball control and position play(complicated systems by the way are COMPLICATED so try to avoid them).
A technical player knows the systems and works out a specific pre-shot routine, they practice a specific practice routine, they play the table (means the current shot and at least the next two shots) for position. They do not deviate from shot routine except to adjust for table conditions, they do not allow themselves to be distracted by ANYTHING (even GF). The ONLY thing that moves when they shoot is their forearm and a slight gripping of the cue. They get a general idea standing back from the table how they want to shoot the shot,move in to investigate exactly how to shoot the shot, they move back behind the cueball and approach the shot from behind with everything worked out in their head already. They then get down for the shot and if ANYTHING doesn't feel right they back off from the shot and recompose.

Terry <just what I've observed watching them.:D

Purdman
02-06-2006, 01:31 PM
There is nothing like good, sound fundamentals to fall back on when you need it. Grip, bridge, stance, stroke and SPFF. It works when nothing else does.
JMHO Purdman:cool:

Solartje
02-06-2006, 01:42 PM
just to add some more info after reading some comments. when i say i lose my natural game, it hasnt to do with positional play, reading the game, clearing patterns etc.

The table's are clear to me, and i never start potting a ball untill im 100% sure on how to clear each and every single ball. (patterns). My positional play was perfect in direction but never in speed. (finishing wrong side of the balls) screwing 3 times more then i should (where this is the shot i think i really master well)

my problem is simple; i just miss the freaking balls. (and even if im abit out of position sometimes , i stille expect to pot them) When im losing it, i really concentrate on this one thing: Imagining the ball going in exactly how i want, and the cb finishing exactly how i want, (just like ive been told too, see the lines before u shoot) but then i shoot it and its just going toally wrong.

Cameron Smith: ive read many many books and seen many video's , so i know all there is about basics, and lets say 90% of advanced tehcniques. (but i dont have a caoch yet. Why? iv have people who are ready to bring me to this consistent A level, but for the moment i know what the problem is (= consistency) and i know where to find the info to help it, (and i did) but its not working.

when u say "I play very fast too typically so that I outrun the negative thoughts so to speak" i totally recognise me in it. So what happens next? when i do have negative thoughs because balls are not doing what im asking them to do, i play slower, think about what ive read and info from people who have tried to help me, but this makes me play slower, losing the natural (ok why not lose it? as its not working anyway), but its not helping either...


sixpack, when u say:have the top player watch you and tell you what to shoot and how to shoot it for each shot. as i posted jsut some lines above, i see the things, but the "solly magic" is not happening. I have to reavaluate my paterns afert every shot because A: i missed the shot, balls moved places, B: potted balls, but im on the wrong side of the ball, C: im so frustrated i missed the shot; im thinking more about why did i miss this shot? is my alignment bad? and i focus on the problem and not the patern anymore. (not sure if this is the good way to do? should u just forget the straight easy shot u missed, or should u ask yourself why did i miss? so it wont happen again?)..

gregg: when u say : Books and training can help, but nothing replaces table time
this is what i added in the end, what DOES help , is play 30minuts straight pool and clear some racks. TAble time is CRUCIAL to me!!, if i dont get it, and i dont get the level i know i am at the first minuts of a match, i just lose it. Game where i am the most unconsistent is: 9ball!!! any explanation why , other then in 9ball u dont do big breaks as in 14-1? (if this was the case, why does it happen less often in 8ball, where u dont do big breaks either? (even if i do lose consistency there too).

I do like 9ball, when i play very good, as i LOVE to play good positional shots, and i LOVE to find paters. more interesting then just potting ball, but i hardly am consistent in 9ball...


terry: A: i have tried simple ghost techniques, contact point, but it asks to much mental power. Ive played so much, i just know where to hit the ball if i want to pot this ball in way X. I know by experience what i have to change, because of Y aplied english, Z distance, etc. Ive tried to use this simple techniques when my game lets it down, and it makes it even MORE horrible. (^rpbably because i dont know how to adjust ghostball or contact points when u need to incorporate effects like swerve, contact trow, deflection etc. I love to read about them, and i use them to explain my gf how to play, but i never use it, as its not working AT all for me.
B never tried stuff from the cacul8ter. i dont understand it either.
about the last part; this is the part i always do (learned it here in AZB, and its working. " They get a general idea standing back from the table how they want to shoot the shot,move in to investigate exactly how to shoot the shot, they move back behind the cueball and approach the shot from behind with everything worked out in their head already. They then get down for the shot and if ANYTHING doesn't feel right they back off from the shot and recompose. " , on the other side the preshot routine, i dont really have. well i DO have them but i got like 3 different once, depending on how i play, if one is not working, i change to another, but it only works for lets say 10% of the cases. i just adapt on how well i play.


Purdman: those where ok. after the match i did the quick usual drills for checking them out, and i was potting the balls like im used and suposed too. no errors on that side. but when i have for example a shot in a match, that looks very similar to the usual when-nothig)goes-right-checkup-drills i miss it. if i can take the ball right after i missed it, but it on another table, do the shot, ill pot it 99% of the time. maybe ive got a fear of match tables?

Sorry for the long posts, but i hope the added info, will help u all in the nexy reply's. the more info i give, the better u might find a solution i could try.


edit; ive been thinkin abit about simple techniques... maybe i should learn to master them more, and use them in case i miss simple shots, but i honestly dont know how to change for xample the contact point if i use this or that englisch. I just know how to play them if u play center ball hits.. that maybe a solution?

when im on; each pot is a easy pot, weither i bank, jump kick or just pot it, i just choose the pot that goes the best with the patern i have in my head. when all goes wrong, im even scared of a straight '1 diamond distance ' shot. maybe im just TO focused on making a fool of myself and playing under my level, or maybe im just a D player who ocasionally plays better.... no idea :s

renard
02-06-2006, 02:05 PM
Hey Solly,

I beleive what your trying to say about technical players is that they use systems. For example, the diamond system, no english two cushion corner rail, and angle in angle out. You probably add to that thought that these same players are tediously making sure that there fundamental mechanics are in perfect order. Books can get you to better understand these areas that you may or may not already know.

Instructors can pick up flaws in your game very fast that you may not even know you are doing. Just because a good player cannot pick up anything wrong by watching you doesnt mean it's not there.

Would reading books and/or getting an instructor help? Yes most definitely. It opens up possibilities and clarifies the ones you already know to be true.

It sounds like you have hit a plateau in your game. It needs to be disected and looked at piece by piece. Then with the new found knowledge you can work to correct it.

For example, I have teammate who shoots at a very fast pace. Before the balls stop moving he instantly knows what english and position he wants. Well, he fell into slump; missing routine shots that was just driving him crazy.
As a team we saw a differance when he shot good compared to his bad and that was his routine.

When he shot good his routine was: 1) To stand briefly looking at the object balls contact point into the pocket. 2)Then he would stand back from the table and walk into his stance setting his bridge hand on the table. 3)He then took 4 practice strokes then shot the shot.

What he saw him doing was: get down in stance one stoke the ball, miss. He didn't attempt any other step. His aiming point/mechanics/feedback of the feel of the stroke where not there at all before the shot.

A set routine gives us a rythme. It doesnt matter if its a fast or slow tempo. I think by using books you can become a student of the game and it clarifies what the natural player in you already knows. An instructor or a keen eyed observer can pick up on what your not seeing as the problem. (It is exspecially hard to pick up problems on a player who shoots fast. We had 4 guys trying to pick out the problem.)

Or problems are very numerous...we are not machines, we just want to shoot like one.

Egg McDogit
02-06-2006, 02:10 PM
My positional play was perfect in direction but never in speed. (finishing wrong side of the balls) screwing 3 times more then i should (where this is the shot i think i really master well)

There are "smarter" ways of playing some shots that allow you to stroke the ball and give you a much bigger zone to hit, speed-wise. What you think are perfect lines might not be the best lines at all. Just something I learned the hard way.

As for missing shots here are some basic tips:
1) make SURE you STROKE the ball and FINISH
2) watch the object ball until at least the cue ball contacts it. are you hitting the point you aimed for?

If you're stroking the balls and hitting the point on the object ball that you're trying to, it means you need to practice the shots you're missing. If you're not hitting the points you're aiming for, it means you need to work on your stroke.

Tbeaux
02-06-2006, 02:12 PM
Okay Solly,

Sounds like fundamentals are not your problem. But your mental game is going to hell. Any other things relating to your game that's pool related bugging you? I know there is at least one......ummm....stick! Are you still fighting with that?
You have to stop assuming your game is going to go to sh%t or it will. Even if you normally play fast remember if it don't feel right stand back and recompose your shot.

Solly if nine ball is the game your having trouble with practice some "ROTATION" and then go back to the 9-ball. It's just like 9-ball but with 15 balls. More balls will make you have to get closer on position play(cuestick control).

Terry

Cameron Smith
02-06-2006, 02:24 PM
when u say "I play very fast too typically so that I outrun the negative thoughts so to speak" i totally recognise me in it. So what happens next? when i do have negative thoughs because balls are not doing what im asking them to do, i play slower, think about what ive read and info from people who have tried to help me, but this makes me play slower, losing the natural (ok why not lose it? as its not working anyway), but its not helping either...


I don't slow down when I get those negative thoughts. When something is bothering me, I step away from the shot, take a drink of water (a glass of water is the most important tool for me during a match), step back to the table re-evaluate it, like I would at the beginning of a rack and then start shooting again. Its kind of like starting the rack over on the fifth ball (not neccessarily that ball but you know what I mean) in a way. I do this a then get back into my rythm of running balls. Of course sometimes it doesnt work and I miss, but hey even Ronnie misses (a friend of mine told me about it once).

Solartje
02-06-2006, 02:26 PM
mmm 2 very simple but very interesting posts... ive given it a quick thought and this is what i think;

foxyman:
"An instructor or a keen eyed observer can pick up on what your not seeing as the problem. (It is exspecially hard to pick up problems on a player who shoots fast. We had 4 guys trying to pick out the problem".

u might be right as i play fast, i should have different persons checking on me. We dont have pro coaches here, so only one i can ask it a top players in my country, and for the moment im only friends with 2 who dont mind checking for errors. Might have to find more better players to check on me. the once who did check didnt find a error, and even used me to show other players what a good stroke, stance etc is... weird, but i do have it when im explaining it to someone, or my gf, I just lose it (aparently) when im in a match.

Egg McDogit: its option B. Im not hitting it where i should. So seems my stroke goes wrong when i play in matches. (maybe also in practice sometimes, but in a match its easyer to spot it). SO the problem is, stroke in a match. I must admit, i had a not center hit stroke before ive started pool. (i compensated for it so i didnt miss a pot, when i played snooker) but ive trained it for the last 6 months. maybe im just not trained enough, and match situation makes me go back to bad habits again. .... !!! very possible....

terry: might be the stick. its true :s im really not happy about my J&j playcue, and im considering going back to my snookercue, untill i can afford the shurtz id love to have. but this is only something i think of in practice, never in a match. and i hardly lose consistency in a long practice, might take me 2 hours on a bad day, but i eventually DO get it back after that time. (how did i solve it? play play play till its back on. it just goes automatically. why this doesnt work in a match? A match is over in 30minuts...)

ill take the advice on rotation. but a keyfactor is , matches. Im sure id play good rotation in training, but in a match i would get the same consistency loops.


so till now:
A: it happens most in matches
B: its a stroke error
C: it takes to long to regain my game when i lose it. need to do it quicker
D: i need to let more people watch me during a match. When they watch during practice, nothing is wrong... never had someone watch me for errors in a match!! WOW this might be it!!! i think the last one might be a good thing to do.
E: funny note, my gf doesnt know *** about strokes, stance etc, but she can tell when im on and when im not (without seeing if i clear a rack, just my aura/atitude/ (maybe even preshot routine) around the table.

Solartje
02-06-2006, 02:29 PM
I don't slow down when I get those negative thoughts. When something is bothering me, I step away from the shot, take a drink of water (a glass of water is the most important tool for me during a match), step back to the table re-evaluate it, like I would at the beginning of a rack and then start shooting again. Its kind of like starting the rack over on the fifth ball (not neccessarily that ball but you know what I mean) in a way. I do this a then get back into my rythm of running balls. Of course sometimes it doesnt work and I miss, but hey even Ronnie misses (a friend of mine told me about it once).


u are right... sounds much better to not change to any of my 3 pre shot routines when it goes wrong, but just take a piss, go drink some water, and keep playing with the same routine i play when im in the zone.. why i used 3 routines , is because when i was used to see snooker on the tv, and some guys was strugling i saw they changed there preshot, and playing speed. sometimes they speeded up, sometimes they played slower, and ive copied this (but maybe in the wrong way..). ill try to ask my gf wich routine/aura i have when im on the zone, and ask her to tape it, or explain to me what differences she sees.

ok things are starting to become alot clearder to me, on what my problems are. last time i posted my consistency problem, post was alot shorter, and i did get the standard solution reply's, wich didnt work. This time, i feel the answers are more personally helping. thx alot guys!!!. keep it coming.

Tbeaux
02-06-2006, 02:32 PM
One more thing Solly. You said you've had people watch to see what you're doing wrong and they see nothing. They can't see where your eyes are looking and they may not notice if your tip is hitting the ball wrong. Where are you looking when you shoot? If the cue tip is hitting in the wrong place (it is if you miss) then 1)something is wrong with your stroke or bridge 2)you're taking your eye off the cueball or 3) you're aiming wrong (could be mental lapse).

There is NOTHING difficult about the ghost ball......It's the place where your cueball needs to be to make the object ball go straight into the pocket on most shots.

Terry

sixpack
02-06-2006, 02:41 PM
sixpack, when u say:have the top player watch you and tell you what to shoot and how to shoot it for each shot. as i posted jsut some lines above, i see the things, but the "solly magic" is not happening. I have to reavaluate my paterns afert every shot because A: i missed the shot, balls moved places, B: potted balls, but im on the wrong side of the ball, C: im so frustrated i missed the shot; im thinking more about why did i miss this shot? is my alignment bad? and i focus on the problem and not the patern anymore. (not sure if this is the good way to do? should u just forget the straight easy shot u missed, or should u ask yourself why did i miss? so it wont happen again?)..



Solly,

There are benefits to having someone tell you every shot other than just seeing the patterns. It makes you focus on what you're doing. The person probably won't let you think about the shot you just missed and they'll make you focus on the next shot. They also might share positional nuances that you haven't thought of to make sure you're on the right side of the next ball or help you think through how they table will change after you shoot the shot and/or bump into clusters etc...

I would recommend it no matter what level of play you're at. One time a friend of mine and I were watching David Matlock practice and he was running out racks of 9-ball, and asking us how he should shoot shots. Not because he thought we might know more than him, but talking about it helped him think more clearly about what he was trying to do AND he might get lucky and we might show him a new shot (unlikely, but hey).

:)

Cheers,
RC

Edit -

You also mentioned that if you made the first ball, then you ran out. So basically you missed in the first couple if at all. To me that says that you are not getting your focus tight before the first shot. Your head is probably filled with mush-indecision, fear, regret for the last shot, anything but how to execute the next shot. Somebody telling you how to shoot the first shot takes the indecision out of it and will IMO help you focus better from the first ball.

Solartje
02-06-2006, 02:41 PM
terry, ive never asked them to check on it during a match. and its where i have the main problems, im 100% sure they WILL find something if they would check on me during a match, in practice or when teaching someone, im a very very good player. (and u very usefull technique to make other players feels insecure, when i practice for a rack or 2 before a match. i can just see there fear in there eyes, where as i dont do it for this reason, but just to check on my game)

where i look, like usual i think: cb -ob rapid changes during the positioning of my bridgehand, cb when im adressing and during my pauze i change to the ob and the pocket. i think my stroke is ok during training, as ive been training alot to play pool with my eyes closed and im pritty good at it.

about the posible solutions; i think it has to be a combination of A; not hitting the ball where my eyes think i am (non center ball hits) and B: mental aiming laps , due to match situation and no confidence and questioning every part of a shot


sixpack: ofcourse this is very helpfull, and the thing i will work on with my coatch in the near future. but for the moment, ive got a wrong stroke during matches, and i need to find the reason and solutions for that first. If im missing balls i can pot eyes closed 99% of the time, im doing something very wrong. No point in having someone help u with paterns and seeing "things" if u cant pot a simple ball. ive got to back to basics like someone posted, resolve that. but i DO understand what u mean.

EDIT: your edit seems like a good idea... yes my first shots are the once i miss. And usually are the crucial pots. I had the problem before of missing the first ball and the last money/game ball. The last ball is going better. Thx to a post where someone sugested to play that ball like if u had still more balls to pot for after, and play a imaginary position. and its working. now for the first ball, i havent found yet a good solution. (this is not something thats consistency related, BUT its anothe error i know i have, and im trying to find a solution for...) :D cool im feeling like u guys have a big iron, who are ironing all my flaws away... And it feels good.

@ all:

this is the theory i came up with. I used to have a noncenter hit for 10 years, and subconsiously i adjusted so i would still make the shot. since 6 months ive adjusted my centerstroke, and i dont adjust to it anymore, as its not needed. now there are 2 options;

1/ in a match: i play again with my non center bad habit, but i dont adjust for it anymore as ive learned its not needed.
2/ in a match; i play center ball hits, but i adjust for it like i used to do before.

what u guys think of this theory.. sounds very possible to me..

Egg McDogit
02-06-2006, 02:51 PM
have you ever watched yourself on video? I'm willing to bet you're jabbing at the cueball in pressure situations (instead of stroking)...or not finishing properly at least. Doing this will ABSOLUTELY KILL YOU. A lot of people do this when they're scared to miss. Another common one is swerving/steering on the finish or even in midstroke.


Egg McDogit: its option B. Im not hitting it where i should. So seems my stroke goes wrong when i play in matches. (maybe also in practice sometimes, but in a match its easyer to spot it). SO the problem is, stroke in a match. I must admit, i had a not center hit stroke before ive started pool. (i compensated for it so i didnt miss a pot, when i played snooker) but ive trained it for the last 6 months. maybe im just not trained enough, and match situation makes me go back to bad habits again. .... !!! very possible....

Solartje
02-06-2006, 02:56 PM
have you ever watched yourself on video? I'm willing to bet you're jabbing at the cueball in pressure situations (instead of stroking)...or not finishing properly at least. Doing this will ABSOLUTELY KILL YOU. A lot of people do this when they're scared to miss. Another common one is swerving/steering on the finish or even in midstroke.

nope ive never done it, and its the first thing i will do. Hope my gf doesnt have to work next sunday, and ill ask her to tape me. Might also just ask it to a friend if he isnt playing. i think it will explain alot.
any sugestion to what i should film? (zoom at where i hit the cb? stand behind me? stand in front of me? i suposed there is a good way to film so u find errors.


EDIT. weird but im already feeling confident just by talking about it...

Egg McDogit
02-06-2006, 02:58 PM
about the posible solutions; i think it has to be a combination of A; not hitting the ball where my eyes think i am (non center ball hits)

freeze an object ball on the middle diamond at the end rail. now put the cue ball on the other side of the table maybe a diamond to the left of it so you have a extreme cut that's table length. try to cut this ball (without english - don't cheat). don't worry about making it, just stroke it at your normal stroke speed. if the ball rides the rail, then chances are you're sighting is fine...and/or your brain has adjusted to how you aim/stroke. if you hit it bad or really bad consistently, you might want to try moving your cue around under your chin. 1 cm to the right....or 1 cm to the left...etc. play around with it

Solartje
02-06-2006, 03:12 PM
id like to add a pm bob sended me, (he's ok with me posting it here too, as he might have another point)

bob said:

"You said you played lights out when your favorite song was playing... did you ever think that your inconsistency might have something to do with your Cadence, tempo and Rythum? maybe that favorite song kept your routines and your stroke going at a certain speed and beat (playing to the music). Many people don't give much credence to how much Tempo can make a difference in your game, but it DOES! Record that song on a CD and see if playing it while you practice helps you. If it does, then it may be nothing more than a cadence and tempo problem and your consistency problems may go away. If I start to fall out of stroke, I hum a particular song to myself and sure enough, my tempo will fall back in place and I start shooting dead off in the pocket again.

On the other hand, it NEVER hurts to have a good technical knowledge, but if you have days when you shoot "A" or above, then you can do it EVERY day. You're just missing something small that helps get you in that "run out mode". Maybe it's the tempo thing."


now most here know im used to play in a karaoke barr... with VERY VERY loud pounding techno music. i even dance when im in the zone. For me playing pool is like a dance, where u position your arms, feets, weight etc exactly where needed and u execute a movement untill u have perfected it. So he might have a very good point about my tempo. I NEVER NEVER EVER played bad during my favorit songs, and my old karaokebarr habit might just have made me a player where tempo is needed, and might explain why its hard for me to find any tempo in a 9ballgame. Its like walking in a dancemovement to a girl in a club to ask her to dance and getting rejected. u wont dance anymore that night thats for sure. well thats what happens with my 9ball game, and in matches. If i dont get the temp right, ill have a bad day.

6pack, u mean in training? i can make the ball consistently. i dont have a really havey dominant eye. funny u tell this, but its exactly what ive told my gf to do, and its working miracles for her. but in practice i hit and see correct and it makes it worse for me.

note; ill try to aply all uve said, the tempo thing, humbling my favorit song, checking on center hits on a match, preshot routine in a match, and ill see how ill play next week. Check my signature next week, for the results of next Ranking . im aiming for a quarter final place, but mainly to play my better level.

Jaden
02-06-2006, 04:26 PM
my problem is simple; i just miss the freaking balls. (and even if im abit out of position sometimes , i stille expect to pot them) When im losing it, i really concentrate on this one thing: Imagining the ball going in exactly how i want, and the cb finishing exactly how i want, (just like ive been told too, see the lines before u shoot) but then i shoot it and its just going totally wrong



When you visualise the balls dropping and the CB going exactly where you want are you at the same time visualising what you want your body to be doing..... I.E. Stance rotation of your arm stroking through the ball etc???

Because if you aren't then you may well be aiming properly etc but not stroking properly.. Then when you ask someone to watch your stroke you're thinking about your stroke so you stroke properly but you don't aim properly. What you should do is buy and read "The Inner Game of Tennis"

I've heard other people on this site mention this book as well. It will really give you some insight on the conflicts that arise from your knowledge self and your experience self and what it can do to your game.....

ridingthenine21
02-06-2006, 04:31 PM
i'm probably late on this...but maybe this will help you. Where do you stand according to this guy?
http://www.onthebreaknews.com/Gowin8.htm#Learning

Gage
02-06-2006, 04:50 PM
I think all of your questions can be answered by reading Pleasures of Small Motions by Bob Fancher. Read it slowly and take notes, there is a TON of information in the book.

renard
02-06-2006, 04:59 PM
Hey Solly if you are going to record yourself on video try doing it from 2 angles at least. The first directly from the side (perpendicular to your stroke.) Then directly behind.

The first position will show certain thing like: if your dropping your shoulder, poking not stroking, ect. The second view will show you certain things like: if your steering your stroke trying to compensate, if you tend to bring your hand position closer or away from your body in a stoke.

Pick a shot that is is not easy, not difficult; say a shot you have a 60-70% chance of making at any given time. This shot should be tried at 3 speeds: soft, medium, hard. Also try using variable english: screw it back, follow, and side.

What I propose is have a contest with a friend and maybe a friendly wager on the side. Then for example: Take 5 long shots using hard draw to bring the cueball back past the side pocket. Each ball made is a point. Try the whole variety or list of shots all why being video taped.

renard
02-06-2006, 05:00 PM
I think all of your questions can be answered by reading Pleasures of Small Motions by Bob Fancher. Read it slowly and take notes, there is a TON of information in the book.

I second that!

Slasher
02-06-2006, 05:13 PM
Focus focus focus.
quit playing till you really feel like playing.

Solartje
02-06-2006, 05:39 PM
mmm ill try to answer all the post together this time.

the 2 only books that are mentioned here are the 2 that i havent read yet (and a third one, about war.. cant remember the exact titel). But i will try to find the books. not sure what they talk about and if they can correct my personal tournament consistency problem. but they will be good to read anyway. i just hope they arent another book about basics, and they are more about mental , muscle memory , winning spirit, etc..

ridingthenine21
what level i am? it depends. Like i said, on training or on competition? On training, i can run 50breaks in snooker, 40 breaks in straight pool (average of a rack each inning ), i think in practice, when its just me and the balls, i couldnt be hapier, i got nothing i really think im a beginner in, nor am I a expert pro player. I think (not much) , i see, and i do it, and i enjoy it. I enjoy seeing paterns and cleaning a rack exactly like i had seen it. like someone said before (i think it was terry) im at a certain level where i hit the top of selfimprovement. im very happy of the level i achieved. I need experts to get me further, brush away the last flaws i have in training, and most of all; learning how to COMPETE, and im willing to invest the time into achieving this. I have played for 10 years but never played in competition before, never gambled, i just played for the fun of playing and achieving a level that was selfsatiscfying to me. Now playing competition comes along with many different things i never had to deal with before. stress, having to sit down for long periods, playing in places im not used to, having to find the fighting spirit to WIN, tempo , etc. but it is a nescecary mean to achieve perfection. (at least i think)

foxyman: ill try to do that. Not sure about the shot idea. like i said, its only in a match, (not in between matches when im keeping myself warm) not after a match, not before, its as soon as the toss has been made, that my results is unpredictable. either i clear , or i choke on every ball. the Match situation is the important factor why i miss the most simple shots, where as in training i really dont find any pot hard, thin cuts, long pots, englisch, doesnt matter. i dont have to think about potting, i only think about paterns. i take 2 minuts to analyse the table, and then clean it in the same amount of time. i clean around 20 racks in just abit more then a hour. (usually 1.20)

slasher; that will be hard :p i want to play all the time, finances are my only limitations.

ill try to tape myself when im having another D level day, and see what i can find. then film me when i got my A-B level game, and check for differences. my gf already spotted my aura... wich i think in pool terms has to do with tempo, preshotroutine. and myself i spotted i miss pots because im not hitting the cb where i should. i think these 2 checkups will really improve my tournament consistency play. then again ; im only competing sinds august, competition is like playing pool, play play play, compete compete compete. ive also rescheduled my pooltime a bit. going from 100% training, to 80%training and 20%competition in august, to 50%training and 50% competition now.


question about what i think when i play , well .... i dont think consciously. I just do my thing. I think of some flaws that i needed to correct, (stroke hand placement some inches closer, stretch my bridge arm completly (helps me straighten my shots) but as soon as they become natural i dont think of them. Only thing i think is; paterns, position where i can continue if i pot, and thats safe at the same time if i miss, how to open clusters in the correct way, study any possible plants and plan B pots, my game/stroke/stance just folows. (or not :D like when i choke)