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Diane
02-07-2006, 09:02 AM
Just putting this out there that Cliff Joyner needs a sponsor for the last 2 IPT qualifiers (or 3 if you are willing to send him to the Netherlands!). As you all know he is highly qualified to win one of the remaining tour cards and he is willing to form a legal and binding contract with anyone willing to sponsor him. The tour card is worth a minimum of $100,000 for the year and we all know he would win more than that.
The sponsorship would have to include $2,000 for the entry fee and expense money for airfare, room, etc... The contract would be a percentage split for the entire year!
He is playing VERY well right now and just came in 2nd in Duluth, GA at a Viking 9-Ball stop with 79 players. He is not a big fan of 9-ball, but does like to play 8-ball because of it's strategy and pattern play.

Anyone interested can contact me, Diane Crane @ 678-977-8820 or e-mail me @ poolplayerdiane@yahoo.com

The next qualifier is @ Hard Times...
February 17-19, 2006
Location: Hard Times Billiards:17450 Bellflower Boulevard
Bellflower, CA 90706. Hotel info coming soon
Entry Fee: $2000- Must Register in Advance

Then this one...
Dates: February 24-26, 2006
Location: Country Club Billiards: 67 Parkhurst Road
Chelmsford, MA 01824 Hotel info coming soon
Entry Fee: $2000- Must Register in Advance

ScottW
02-07-2006, 09:10 AM
The tour card is worth a minimum of $100,000 for the year and we all know he would win more than that.

On the banners up at The Pool Room in Marietta, GA, where the last qualifier was held a bit over a week ago, they read "$13,000 minimum" - nowhere near $100k.

I met Cliff briefly while attending that tournament - he's a hell of a shot and seemed like a good guy, as much as I can judge from 10 seconds of conversation. :P

shoutout33
02-07-2006, 10:30 AM
Are you like his agent or something? Not trying to be smart...just curious. I'd really like to see Cliff in the IPT as well, but I couldn't sponsor him, even if I wanted too.

NaClBandit
02-07-2006, 10:39 AM
Cliff can crash on my couch for the Chelmsford event, so if anyone's willing to pay his entry fee we can talk co-sponsorship.

I'm thinking...70/30, haha.

time_is_now
02-07-2006, 10:46 AM
why wouldn't he stick up his own money? if he is playing that great?

Diane
02-07-2006, 11:01 AM
Everyone knows you can be the greatest poolplayer in the world and not make any money. Check and see how much Efren made last year; I'm sure after living expenses he didn't sock much away.
If you are not interested in sponsoring him, just don't reply...it's that simple.

Diane
02-07-2006, 11:05 AM
No I am not his agent, just a friend trying to help a friend. I know he has paid his dues out here and he also has an excellent shot at winning the tour card. If I had the $, I would stake him no doubt

time_is_now
02-07-2006, 11:06 AM
Everyone knows you can be the greatest poolplayer in the world and not make any money. Check and see how much Efren made last year; I'm sure after living expenses he didn't sock much away.
If you are not interested in sponsoring him, just don't reply...it's that simple.
just think it is cheap and heartless in a sense.........but that i my opinion.....hey anyone want to sponser me????:)

Diane
02-07-2006, 11:08 AM
Maybe, but not in a spelling contest!

JPB
02-07-2006, 11:10 AM
what kind of percentage for the year is he proposing?

jsp
02-07-2006, 11:12 AM
just think it is cheap and heartless in a sense.........but that i my opinion.....hey anyone want to sponser me????:)
What's so "cheap and heartless" about looking for a sponsor? Both parties get something in return for sponsorship. It's not charity.

Diane
02-07-2006, 11:13 AM
On the banners up at The Pool Room in Marietta, GA, where the last qualifier was held a bit over a week ago, they read "$13,000 minimum" - nowhere near $100k.

I met Cliff briefly while attending that tournament - he's a hell of a shot and seemed like a good guy, as much as I can judge from 10 seconds of conversation. :P
At the tournament itself, Deno Andrews announced that ANY tour card was worth a minimum of $100,000. Each event is worth a minimum of $13,000 and I'm sure there are other incentives and bonuses. Do the math...

ScottW
02-07-2006, 11:13 AM
If that's the case, then I stand corrected.

Diane
02-07-2006, 11:15 AM
what kind of percentage for the year is he proposing?
He is proposing 65% to himself and 35% to the sponsor. There would have to be a legal, binding contract drawn up to protect both parties. By the way, this split is for the entire year.

Eric.
02-07-2006, 11:19 AM
I hope this doesn't turn into another player bash but I want to play Devil's advocate...


This is the age old poolplayer/backer scenario. The only problem is that the backer assumes all the risk. He is the "investor". Now, if this were say, selling Real Estate or trading stocks/bonds, etc, the poolplayer would earn a commission or small percentage of the total pot. That would mean that the player would earn something like a 5% or 10% commission. The difference is that in Pool, most players feel that they are entitled to a 50/50 split or somewhere close to half of the winnings and none of the loses. That is a good deal for the player because he/she doesn't take on any risk, other than not getting paid.

So, other than just doing it to feel like you're part of the action (and there's nothing wrong with people that wanna do that), why would you want to do a business deal like that?!


Eric >inquiring mind

jingle
02-07-2006, 11:32 AM
It seems to me this would be the safest scenario to back somebody (Cliff, or any other player for that matter). Because uou know Cliff is going to be giving it his all to try to earn that tour card...and I for one hope he gets it done.

MFB
02-07-2006, 11:32 AM
I say we get 50 people to throw in about $200 each.

Salamander
02-07-2006, 11:38 AM
Joyner is a very good player no doubt. He also is recognized as gambling big dollars on "action" wherever he goes. So, if he is so confident about his abilities, he can gamble his own money on trying to get onto the IBT.

Binding contracts or not, the logistics of trying to get paid what is owned you might prove difficult.



I hope this doesn't turn into another player bash but I want to play Devil's advocate...


The difference is that in Pool, most players feel that they are entitled to a 50/50 split or somewhere close to half of the winnings and none of the loses. That is a good deal for the player because he/she doesn't take on any risk, other than not getting paid.

So, other than just doing it to feel like you're part of the action (and there's nothing wrong with people that wanna do that), why would you want to do a business deal like that?!


Eric >inquiring mind

Diane
02-07-2006, 11:38 AM
I hope this doesn't turn into another player bash but I want to play Devil's advocate...


This is the age old poolplayer/backer scenario. The only problem is that the backer assumes all the risk. He is the "investor". Now, if this were say, selling Real Estate or trading stocks/bonds, etc, the poolplayer would earn a commission or small percentage of the total pot. That would mean that the player would earn something like a 5% or 10% commission. The difference is that in Pool, most players feel that they are entitled to a 50/50 split or somewhere close to half of the winnings and none of the loses. That is a good deal for the player because he/she doesn't take on any risk, other than not getting paid.

So, other than just doing it to feel like you're part of the action (and there's nothing wrong with people that wanna do that), why would you want to do a business deal like that?!


Eric >inquiring mind
You have a very valid point! This is not for anyone that is looking for a long term investment plan...it's really more of helping a top player over a hurdle to possible great success. I'm know there were a few golfers that went through the same thing. Backers tend to get involved because they can't play at a high level and they also have a tendancy to like to gamble. Players do it obviously for the love of the game; it's a hard way to make an easy living!
This is the first time pool has had any [I]serious[I] money involved!

nfty9er
02-07-2006, 11:44 AM
Lets just have a Calcutta on line. lol

MFB
02-07-2006, 11:46 AM
Lets just have a Calcutta on line. lol

I think it should be a player auction instead.:D

JAM
02-07-2006, 11:47 AM
Diane, I think you've put forth some great ideas relating to getting Cliff in the IPT qualifiers.:)

Just a suggestion. There are some qualifiers occurring BEFORE the IPT qualifier in which the entry fees are much less, i.e., $200 as opposed to $2,000. If you call up to Chelmsford, MA and/or Hard Times in CA, they may be able to provide some info.

This would be one way for Cliff to get his $2,000 entry fee. By playing in some of the mini qualifiers, if he wins one of those, he's in like Flynn.

Hope this helps! Cliff Joyner is a legend around my neck of the woods and is heralded as one of the BEST one-pocket machines ever to exist. I sure do wish him the best of luck!:)

JAM

Diane
02-07-2006, 11:52 AM
Diane, I think you've put forth some great ideas relating to getting Cliff in the IPT qualifiers.:)

Just a suggestion. There are some qualifiers occurring BEFORE the IPT qualifier in which the entry fees are much less, i.e., $200 as opposed to $2,000. If you call up to Chelmsford, MA and/or Hard Times in CA, they may be able to provide some info.

This would be one way for Cliff to get his $2,000 entry fee. By playing in some of the mini qualifiers, if he wins one of those, he's in like Flynn.

Hope this helps! Cliff Joyner is a legend around my neck of the woods and is heralded as one of the BEST one-pocket machines ever to exist. I sure do wish him the best of luck!:)

JAM
Thanks for your support JAM!

I know their are backers out there that would love to do this...the forum is just an engine to get the info out there! It never hurts to try!

Eric.
02-07-2006, 11:56 AM
You have a very valid point! This is not for anyone that is looking for a long term investment plan...it's really more of helping a top player over a hurdle to possible great success. I'm know there were a few golfers that went through the same thing. Backers tend to get involved because they can't play at a high level and they also have a tendancy to like to gamble. Players do it obviously for the love of the game; it's a hard way to make an easy living!
This is the first time pool has had any [I]serious[I] money involved!


Even for a short term investment plan, this ain't the best deal around. All I was saying is that if there were some way to make the risk/reward more equitable, not necessarily 50/50, between the players/backers then there might be more people jumping in.

Like I said, the age old conundrum.


Eric >looking for my own friend with 'who cares' money

Eric.
02-07-2006, 12:01 PM
Here's another idea:

Let's call Cliff our "AZ Billiards/IPT player". Let's ask for donations from the forum members. Let's make the contract between Cliff and all contributing members. Let's make the donation a "set" $100 or so and all contributors get a percentage of the split from the winnings. Let's negotiate a (IMO) more equitable split of the winnings. Will this work?


Eric >buy some shares of Joyner, Inc.?

frankncali
02-07-2006, 12:01 PM
Is this a sponsorship for the entire year for just for the Qualifier?

If its for the year then am I thinking right with the following...
Sponsor Cliff for the Qs with entry and expenses and once
he qualifies keep sponsoring him with expenses and entries then
at the end of the year the remainder after expenses were
taken out would be a 65-35 split for Cliff.

Just wanting to make sure I have this straight. I am in no way
able to do this for Cliff but think that its not a bad deal.

I dont believe that this years minimum is worth 100K. I think that is next year. Is this just for 06 or for 06 and 07.
I would think its a very worthwhile investment if its for 06 and 07. Afterall
even according to IPT the 07 scehdule is almost done but this years is
proving tough to find suitable venues on short notice.

I could easily see Cliff keeping his card if he were on the IPT this year full time.

With Cliff there are always rumors about various things. I legit question is
whether he would be able to stay on tour in the limelight and if the money
paid to him would make it to him.

I wish Cliff and any others in Cliffs position good luck in finding sponsorship.
It seems like a really good opportunity for a Cue Maker.

BTW-- is the Diane thats friends with Posey and Garland? If so how are they doing?

nfty9er
02-07-2006, 12:07 PM
Dang me. Sorry I thought someone said they were "really" one and the same.

JAM
02-07-2006, 12:11 PM
Thanks for your support JAM!

I know their are backers out there that would love to do this...the forum is just an engine to get the info out there! It never hurts to try!

The clock is ticking:
Hard Times Billiards, Los Angeles (Bellflower), CA - February 17-19, 2006
Country Club Billiards, Boston (Chelmsford), MA - February 24-26, 2006

I do know a fellow around D.C. way who is CRAZY about pool and does sometimes have a little extra "who cares?" money. I will give him a call and see if he's interested. He's mentioned Cliff's name on numerous occasions. Matter of fact, I think he tried to sneak Cliff in over there at Hot Shots pool room in Baltimore about 3 or 4 years ago. :D

I will PM you immediately, yea or nay, as soon as he returns my call. :)

JAM

Mike Templeton
02-07-2006, 12:29 PM
just think it is cheap and heartless in a sense.........but that i my opinion.....hey anyone want to sponser me????:)
I also want to know why you feel that it is cheap and heartless. Efren has a sponsor. So does Archer, Souquet, Earl, Allison, and almost every other pro player on tour. Are they cheap and heartless? I think not.

I have known Cliff for many years, and I agree with Diane that he has paid his dues and deserves a shot at the IPT.

Mike

Diane
02-07-2006, 12:30 PM
Is this a sponsorship for the entire year for just for the Qualifier?

If its for the year then am I thinking right with the following...
Sponsor Cliff for the Qs with entry and expenses and once
he qualifies keep sponsoring him with expenses and entries then
at the end of the year the remainder after expenses were
taken out would be a 65-35 split for Cliff.

Just wanting to make sure I have this straight. I am in no way
able to do this for Cliff but think that its not a bad deal.

I dont believe that this years minimum is worth 100K. I think that is next year. Is this just for 06 or for 06 and 07.
I would think its a very worthwhile investment if its for 06 and 07. Afterall
even according to IPT the 07 scehdule is almost done but this years is
proving tough to find suitable venues on short notice.

I could easily see Cliff keeping his card if he were on the IPT this year full time.

With Cliff there are always rumors about various things. I legit question is
whether he would be able to stay on tour in the limelight and if the money
paid to him would make it to him.

I wish Cliff and any others in Cliffs position good luck in finding sponsorship.
It seems like a really good opportunity for a Cue Maker.

BTW-- is the Diane thats friends with Posey and Garland? If so how are they doing?
Yes, I am friends with those two nuts! I talked to Posey about a month ago and he is still having health problems. Glad you reminded me, I need to give him a ring.
I am just going by what Deno announced in Marietta that the tour card was worth at least $100,000/year. And yes, the split would be after all expenses were taken out for the year.
Like I said, it's not for everyone, but I know others are getting sponsors/backers for these events, so why not Cliff?

Ktown D
02-07-2006, 01:37 PM
just think it is cheap and heartless in a sense.........but that i my opinion.....hey anyone want to sponser me????:)

Buy yourself some chap-stick and go back to kissing Shane's ass. Nobody wants your opinion.

sixpack
02-07-2006, 01:58 PM
I hope this doesn't turn into another player bash but I want to play Devil's advocate...


This is the age old poolplayer/backer scenario. The only problem is that the backer assumes all the risk. He is the "investor". Now, if this were say, selling Real Estate or trading stocks/bonds, etc, the poolplayer would earn a commission or small percentage of the total pot. That would mean that the player would earn something like a 5% or 10% commission. The difference is that in Pool, most players feel that they are entitled to a 50/50 split or somewhere close to half of the winnings and none of the loses. That is a good deal for the player because he/she doesn't take on any risk, other than not getting paid.

So, other than just doing it to feel like you're part of the action (and there's nothing wrong with people that wanna do that), why would you want to do a business deal like that?!


Eric >inquiring mind

Pro golfers who are starting out do this all the time. In fact, Rich Beem won a major while still splitting with his sponsors. They made out pretty good.

IMO the players are taking a MUCH bigger risk than the sponsors and so should get a higher percentage. The sponsor's are only giving up money, the players are giving up their life. They also have the talent. Almost anybody has $4000, but almost nobody could turn that into $100,000 or more playing pool.

This is more like horse breeding than investing, you can make a big score with a little investment up front, but there is a good chance you'll lose it. If you are not willing to risk that money, this obviously isn't a good investment for you. Keep with the government T-bills and you'll be fine.

Cheers,
RC

thebestpoolroom
02-07-2006, 02:30 PM
On the banners up at The Pool Room in Marietta, GA, where the last qualifier was held a bit over a week ago, they read "$13,000 minimum" - nowhere near $100k.

I met Cliff briefly while attending that tournament - he's a hell of a shot and seemed like a good guy, as much as I can judge from 10 seconds of conversation. :P

HI SCOTT,

THE BANNER SAYS 13K FOR 2006. WHAT DIANE IS SAYING IS THE 2007 YEAR WHERE PLAYERS ARE GUARANTEED 100K.

JOHN

time_is_now
02-07-2006, 02:40 PM
I also want to know why you feel that it is cheap and heartless. Efren has a sponsor. So does Archer, Souquet, Earl, Allison, and almost every other pro player on tour. Are they cheap and heartless? I think not.

I have known Cliff for many years, and I agree with Diane that he has paid his dues and deserves a shot at the IPT.

Mike
lacking confidence perhpas says it better........who in their right mind would give up 40k...113k @ 35%........if they didn't have confidence in them self therefor IMO it is a cheap move.........moreso it is heartless in the sense of having someone else ask people to sponsor him..........the idea of one having a sponsor in itself isn't heartless or cheap but the idea of asking everyone to sponsor him is........by the way i hope he makes it

Eric.
02-07-2006, 02:45 PM
IMO the players are taking a MUCH bigger risk than the sponsors and so should get a higher percentage. The sponsor's are only giving up money, the players are giving up their life. They also have the talent. Almost anybody has $4000, but almost nobody could turn that into $100,000 or more playing pool.

This is more like horse breeding than investing, you can make a big score with a little investment up front, but there is a good chance you'll lose it. If you are not willing to risk that money, this obviously isn't a good investment for you. Keep with the government T-bills and you'll be fine.

Cheers,
RC

RC,

Let me attepmt to turn the light on for you...

There are different levels of risk in all deals. I'm not gonna go into risk/reward, by the sounds of your analogies, the concept might be over your head.

You saying that a player is "giving up his life" by going out and playing is poignant and romantic but just plain @ss goofy. Yes, that's his lively hood, but then again, most of us "give up our life" in one career choice or another. The bottom line is that everyone does what they gotta do for money, to survive. Just because one person does one particular thing for income, doesnt make it more deserving of other people's earned income. Usually (unless you have a gun) the only way you are gonna get someone to part with their income to fund your chance for income is if they also have something to gain in return. BTW, this is the basic "business deal".

I don't know much about Horse breeding but my S.O does. She's shown/bred and won at Nationals, I'm familiar with the nuances. It's not the same as this topic.

*edit-One more thought for the equation; the backer is risking 8k or so to gain $35k. The player is risking $0k to make $65k. In other words, the player has nothing to lose and all to gain...


Eric

Getnbzy
02-07-2006, 02:51 PM
Maybe, but not in a spelling contest!

Bad news time_is_now. Diane says that.....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/getnbzy/kickintheass.gif

Schmohawk
02-07-2006, 03:05 PM
Just one more guy who bets high. Big Shot Gambler-Huge money player! Hey Jack can you build a custom case for him? Oweseys of course.

time_is_now
02-07-2006, 03:10 PM
now that is cool :)

sixpack
02-07-2006, 03:10 PM
RC,

Let me attepmt to turn the light on for you...

There are different levels of risk in all deals. I'm not gonna go into risk/reward, by the sounds of your analogies, the concept might be over your head.

Doubt if you could really explain it, so it's probably easier to just pretend I wouldn't understand.

You saying that a player is "giving up his life" by going out and playing is poignant and romantic but just plain @ss goofy. Yes, that's his lively hood, but then again, most of us "give up our life" in one career choice or another. The bottom line is that everyone does what they gotta do for money, to survive. Just because one person does one particular thing for income, doesnt make it more deserving of other people's earned income. Usually (unless you have a gun) the only way you are gonna get someone to part with their income to fund your chance for income is if they also have something to gain in return. BTW, this is the basic "business deal".

And some are riskier than others. If you're not up for the risk, don't take it. It's really pretty simple. What I mean is that the player has already given up their life to play pool. They will have no other life while they are playing. They are giving up more than the person putting up the money IN MY OPINION. Like I said, it's shouldn't really be considered an investment, but more of a gamble.

I don't know much about Horse breeding but my S.O does. She's shown/bred and won at Nationals, I'm familiar with the nuances. It's not the same as this topic.


*edit-One more thought for the equation; the backer is risking 8k or so to gain $35k. The player is risking $0k to make $65k. In other words, the player has nothing to lose and all to gain...

Eric

The expected ROI is actually much more complicated than that, but even with the numbers you've suggested, $8K and no time to make $35K is a good return. $0K and working at it full-time to make $65K is a job. The person who invests the $8K will still be able to work their regular job or business, the pool player won't be able to if they want to give it a serious go. The only way the player has all to gain and nothing to lose is if their time is valued at $0.

By the way, while we're on the topic of ridiculous analogies, there is no logical way to compare this to a real estate deal or a stock trading deal where the player would get a commission of 6-15%. Neither party is an 'agent', they are both 'principals' in the deal.

A better analogy if you don't like the one about horse breeding is where someone needs some money to get a newspaper stand started so they take on a silent partner. During the course of the next year, one takes on the financial risk and the other takes on the time, effort and day-to-day responsibilities of the business. Both parties share in the profits or suffer the failures according to the initial agreement.

Cheers,
RC

Eric.
02-07-2006, 03:29 PM
The expected ROI is actually much more complicated than that, but even with the numbers you've suggested, $8K and no time to make $35K is a good return. $0K and working at it full-time to make $65K is a job. The person who invests the $8K will still be able to work their regular job or business, the pool player won't be able to if they want to give it a serious go. The only way the player has all to gain and nothing to lose is if their time is valued at $0.

Yes, the numbers are more in depth, I'm trying to keep it simple. The idea I'm trying to get across is the Golden Rule- he who has the gold, makes the rules. If you don't think backers deserve a higher return for their larger risk, go argue with your mortgage company about why you have to pay that much interest on your home loan.

By the way, while we're on the topic of ridiculous analogies, there is no logical way to compare this to a real estate deal or a stock trading deal where the player would get a commission of 6-15%. Neither party is an 'agent', they are both 'principals' in the deal.

I agree that both are principals. A better analogy would be the fundamentals of Venture Capital. I'm thinking of the part the VC plays and the part Entrepreneur plays.

A better analogy if you don't like the one about horse breeding is where someone needs some money to get a newspaper stand started so they take on a silent partner. During the course of the next year, one takes on the financial risk and the other takes on the time, effort and day-to-day responsibilities of the business. Both parties share in the profits or suffer the failures according to the initial agreement.

Cheers,
RC

I'm headed out, catch you tomorrow.


Eric

watchez
02-07-2006, 03:39 PM
Just a general question for all the experts out there.....how does Uncle Sam view a partnership such as this? meaning, who pays the taxes on the $100,000 that is earned? Does the player pay all or 65%? If the backer is expected to foot all expenses, can he deduct that from his taxes? Someone call the IRS and let me know.

Diane
02-07-2006, 03:49 PM
Just a general question for all the experts out there.....how does Uncle Sam view a partnership such as this? meaning, who pays the taxes on the $100,000 that is earned? Does the player pay all or 65%? If the backer is expected to foot all expenses, can he deduct that from his taxes? Someone call the IRS and let me know.
If you are sincerely interested in sponsoring Cliff, I will call the IRS and investigate.
I'm sure all this will be worked out in a contract with the possibility of the IPT presented checks and IRS forms to both individuals.
Just let me know...

Diane
02-07-2006, 03:51 PM
The expected ROI is actually much more complicated than that, but even with the numbers you've suggested, $8K and no time to make $35K is a good return. $0K and working at it full-time to make $65K is a job. The person who invests the $8K will still be able to work their regular job or business, the pool player won't be able to if they want to give it a serious go. The only way the player has all to gain and nothing to lose is if their time is valued at $0.

By the way, while we're on the topic of ridiculous analogies, there is no logical way to compare this to a real estate deal or a stock trading deal where the player would get a commission of 6-15%. Neither party is an 'agent', they are both 'principals' in the deal.

A better analogy if you don't like the one about horse breeding is where someone needs some money to get a newspaper stand started so they take on a silent partner. During the course of the next year, one takes on the financial risk and the other takes on the time, effort and day-to-day responsibilities of the business. Both parties share in the profits or suffer the failures according to the initial agreement.

Cheers,
RC
BRAVO! I bow my head to you with sincere gratitude and respect!!!

Terry Ardeno
02-07-2006, 04:07 PM
Diane,
I sent you a PM...could you check it at your conveinence?
Thanks,
Terry

sixpack
02-07-2006, 04:12 PM
I headed out, catch you tomorrow.


Eric

Have a great evening.

btw - I think we're in violent agreement here in a way.

If a mortgage company loaned you $8K and you had to pay back $35K the first year it would be usury. That's a 438% return roughly.

The venture capital analogy is probably the best one either of us have suggested.

You were playing devil's advocate, and I was playing devil's advocate to your position and now we're so far off-topic that it really doesn't matter.

As for me, if I had the money lying around, I'd jump on this in a heartbeat. It's the kind of gamble I like. I have invested in a couple of golfers in the past.

Cheers,
RC

frankncali
02-07-2006, 07:17 PM
Theres alot of risk for the invester but very little $$$$ when compared to
the max return. Of course thats not fair so we need to look at the
minimum.
The worst is the investor is out around 6-10k. Two Qs and some expenses.
If Cliff makes it and is able to participate for the next two years then the return would be all but guaranteed. Maybe very little profit but surely the original investment would be returned.
Theres still a risk in the player not being able to participate for some reason or another.
Cliff is a good enough player that one could reasonablly see good results
as long as the attention level was given to the IPT and not the smaller events and gambling. If the IPT is a Pro Tour then the players are going to have to finally treat pool like a profession.
I would not think it unreasonable for Cliff to make someone a nice return
on their money.
I think a 2-3 year agreement would be considerablly better for the investor. Maybe the 65-35 for year one and then 80-20 for year 2 and
10% for a final year. The contract could even have a top out number that
voids the remainder. Say Cliff makes 750 by mid way in year 2 then the
partnership would dissolve and the monies splt then.
In the music world and golf world these type contracts are common.
A friend of a friend used to have such a backer on the small tours while
trying to qualify. They formed a legal partnership as a corporation(or something like that) and all money was placed in that comapnies name.
There were set time tables for the money to be distributed or for the backer to not renew the investment. I know the kid made
a little one year but never really made a splash. The backer was very rich and was a golf fan. He did not make a nickel as far as I know. The player
was very appreciative as he had no way of trying to pursue his dream without giving up something.
The IRS would be a major concern of mine just making sure that there are no back payments from either party that would be garnished.

Diane
02-07-2006, 07:43 PM
Just got an e-mail from the IPT and they have posted the 2006 schedule on their website. These events total over $8,000,000 in prize money and I myself would love to see a top player like Cliff get a piece of this pie!
Come on guys, if you know someone, pitch it to 'em!

enzo
02-07-2006, 07:56 PM
i like cliff a lot, almost matched up with him once, he seemed really nice and just wanted top play. a good guy. i must respectfully say however, if cliff can't get somebody to put up 2000 with his game he doesn't want it bad enough. i mean, that would be easy if he was asking the right people (billiard supply owners, pool hall owners....). just tell then you'll wear their shirts in ipt events if you make it on or something like that.

Gunn_Slinger
02-07-2006, 08:15 PM
I think it's great you're trying to find a sponsor for Cliff, Tiger Woods has several sponsors. I would hope that my second favorite poker player Josh Arieh would gather his poker buddies and jump on this band wagon.
If anyone is cashing in on the IPT it will be Cliff Joyner. Thanks for being a good friend Diane wish him all the best for us
B&C

onepocketchump
02-07-2006, 08:26 PM
Just a general question for all the experts out there.....how does Uncle Sam view a partnership such as this? meaning, who pays the taxes on the $100,000 that is earned? Does the player pay all or 65%? If the backer is expected to foot all expenses, can he deduct that from his taxes? Someone call the IRS and let me know.

If the partnership is a corporation then the corporation is taxed on the money earned after expenses. Each partner is taxed individually on money they receive from the corporation.

If 100,000 were earned by the corporation with 20,000 in expenses then there would be 80,000 left over to divide. So, if the partners were to pay each other 40,000 each then they would each be taxed on 40,000 of income. The corporation would have no income as it's expenses would be the same as it's earnings.

Their are many ways to structure a partnership to legitimately sponsor a pool player and make sure the money gets divided.

John

jay helfert
02-07-2006, 10:03 PM
Just got an e-mail from the IPT and they have posted the 2006 schedule on their website. These events total over $8,000,000 in prize money and I myself would love to see a top player like Cliff get a piece of this pie!
Come on guys, if you know someone, pitch it to 'em!

Diane,
These qualifiers are not a piece of cake. Even a player like Cliff is a big underdog to make the top two. It is definitely a longshot proposition. That being said, I have made money with Cliff, chopping up 11K only two years ago. If he wants to come to L.A. and play at Hard Times, I will put him in for the 2K. and if he makes it on tour I will take 33% of his winnings in year one, 25% in year two and 15% thereafter. If he can get a better deal, good for him. I will also provide him with accommodations in Los Angeles.
The way I see it, it is a total longshot, about thirty to one against. So for this I want a chance to win something. 2K is not chump change to risk.

RoadAgent
02-08-2006, 01:04 AM
Thanks for your support JAM!

I know their are backers out there that would love to do this...the forum is just an engine to get the info out there! It never hurts to try!
Not for 65/35 that sucks when you are footing the whole bill airfare ect.Good luck. I love Cliff and all ,played against him in quite a few tourneys but damn some 50/ 50 should be in order..

ironman
02-08-2006, 08:10 AM
Diane,
These qualifiers are not a piece of cake. Even a player like Cliff is a big underdog to make the top two. It is definitely a longshot proposition. That being said, I have made money with Cliff, chopping up 11K only two years ago. If he wants to come to L.A. and play at Hard Times, I will put him in for the 2K. and if he makes it on tour I will take 33% of his winnings in year one, 25% in year two and 15% thereafter. If he can get a better deal, good for him. I will also provide him with accommodations in Los Angeles.
The way I see it, it is a total longshot, about thirty to one against. So for this I want a chance to win something. 2K is not chump change to risk.

Well Cliff, Diane, there it is. Plus you know exactly who you are dealing with.
Lewis!

pokerhammer
02-08-2006, 09:00 AM
Cliff should sale stock in himself. A well know golfer friend of mine did this a few years back. He started with 50% of the entire stock for himself to own. The other 50% was sold to individuals. The entire amount of stock sold (50%) was $120,000, the amount he figured he needed for a year on the Nike Tour (now Nationwide). Each share was $100 (1200 total). The more you bought the bigger % you got. He structured it in a way that the "stock holders" received dividends for 5 years regardless of where and what tour he was playing, unless of course he didn't make any money the first year. Long story short, he made a little money the first year after expenses and entree fees and then qualified for the pga tour at Q-school. He hasn't looked back. One guy bought 500 shares and got back over $400,000. Not a bad investment.

sixpack
02-08-2006, 09:08 AM
Cliff should sale stock in himself. A well know golfer friend of mine did this a few years back. He started with 50% of the entire stock for himself to own. The other 50% was sold to individuals. The entire amount of stock sold (50%) was $120,000, the amount he figured he needed for a year on the Nike Tour (now Nationwide). Each share was $100 (1200 total). The more you bought the bigger % you got. He structured it in a way that the "stock holders" received dividends for 5 years regardless of where and what tour he was playing, unless of course he didn't make any money the first year. Long story short, he made a little money the first year after expenses and entree fees and then qualified for the pga tour at Q-school. He hasn't looked back. One guy bought 500 shares and got back over $400,000. Not a bad investment.

I had a golf friend who did something similar. He hasn't made it yet, but I'd much rather invest a few dollars in somebody trying to live their dream than be bilked out of it by '.com' scammers.

RC

Diane
02-08-2006, 09:14 AM
Cliff should sale stock in himself. A well know golfer friend of mine did this a few years back. He started with 50% of the entire stock for himself to own. The other 50% was sold to individuals. The entire amount of stock sold (50%) was $120,000, the amount he figured he needed for a year on the Nike Tour (now Nationwide). Each share was $100 (1200 total). The more you bought the bigger % you got. He structured it in a way that the "stock holders" received dividends for 5 years regardless of where and what tour he was playing, unless of course he didn't make any money the first year. Long story short, he made a little money the first year after expenses and entree fees and then qualified for the pga tour at Q-school. He hasn't looked back. One guy bought 500 shares and got back over $400,000. Not a bad investment.
I do like this idea [I]a lot![I] However we don't have much time before the last 2 US qualifiers. I wish I had done this a month ago!
I do very much appreciate this and I will relay it to him...not gonna rule it out completely!
I've been told that an LLC would likely needed to be formed with any proceeds being paid by the IPT to the corp and then the $ would be dispursed (after expenses) to each party. An LLC takes about 3 weeks or so to form so in the mean time, a temporary agreement could be signed that should he gain his tour card, the LLC would be formed.

Eric.
02-08-2006, 09:32 AM
Cliff should sale stock in himself. A well know golfer friend of mine did this a few years back. He started with 50% of the entire stock for himself to own. The other 50% was sold to individuals. The entire amount of stock sold (50%) was $120,000, the amount he figured he needed for a year on the Nike Tour (now Nationwide). Each share was $100 (1200 total). The more you bought the bigger % you got. He structured it in a way that the "stock holders" received dividends for 5 years regardless of where and what tour he was playing, unless of course he didn't make any money the first year. Long story short, he made a little money the first year after expenses and entree fees and then qualified for the pga tour at Q-school. He hasn't looked back. One guy bought 500 shares and got back over $400,000. Not a bad investment.

That's a great idea :p


Eric >echo?

Eric.
02-08-2006, 09:48 AM
Have a great evening.

btw - I think we're in violent agreement here in a way.

If a mortgage company loaned you $8K and you had to pay back $35K the first year it would be usury. That's a 438% return roughly.

But...the time value of a 30 year loan is... about 400%. Lower short term risk because of the collateral=lower profits(lower interest rate)

The venture capital analogy is probably the best one either of us have suggested.

Since you are familiar with this structure, you probably know what the VC's want in return for money invested in an Entrepreneur. It's loansharking but because we all have Business degrees, it's "business" and legal.

You were playing devil's advocate, and I was playing devil's advocate to your position and now we're so far off-topic that it really doesn't matter.

As for me, if I had the money lying around, I'd jump on this in a heartbeat. It's the kind of gamble I like. I have invested in a couple of golfers in the past.

Cheers,
RC

Getting back on topic...

I suggested getting the members of this forum together to back Cliff. I could easily back Cliff myself. There's not enough incentive for me to do that. But, I am a poolplayer too and I would help out another poolplayer. I'd be willing to put forth the time and effort to help get my original idea off the ground (set up a Cliff Joyner 'IPO'). I would be willing to sell 'shares' of Cliff at $100 a share. 100 shares are for sale, you can buy as many shares as you like. Your cashout is based on how many shares you own. If there is enough member support, I will arrange for the legal work to establish a "Joynor, Inc, LLC" and make arrangements for a trust fund for the monies contributed and monies won on the IPT tour. I'll also buy the first share. Anyone want shares of Joyner, Inc?


Eric

onepocketchump
02-08-2006, 10:36 AM
I will buy a share of Cliff Joyner Inc. I like the way it sounds. And I like the way it's main asset PLAYS!

John

lil brian
02-08-2006, 12:27 PM
First of all if you form an LLC it can not be a INC. A incorporated company is a corporation not a LLC. You can have a LLC that is TAXED as a corporation or a partnership though.

As far as set up for an "IPO" of Cliff Joyner you have to think about if shares are sold to another individual and so on. This changes the whole structure of the members of the LLC in the first place.

I own close to 10 million in real estate so proper structuring of any entity is a must....

Brian

Eric.
02-08-2006, 12:51 PM
First of all if you form an LLC it can not be a INC. A incorporated company is a corporation not a LLC. You can have a LLC that is TAXED as a corporation or a partnership though.

As far as set up for an "IPO" of Cliff Joyner you have to think about if shares are sold to another individual and so on. This changes the whole structure of the members of the LLC in the first place.

I own close to 10 million in real estate so proper structuring of any entity is a must....

Brian

OK, since we are splitting hairs, you're right in that an entity has to be either an LLC or Inc (corporation) although you can call an LLC "Joyner, Inc". "Joyner, Inc" is just a title, not a cororate designation. I used "Joyner, Inc" just as a quick, off-the-top-o-me-head name.

In reality, it's not an "IPO" (does anyone use eufemisms anymore?!). I mentioned "IPO" as an analogy.

Just go with it, will ya? It's really not that complicated, if you have a little know-how.


Eric

vgodley1
02-08-2006, 01:01 PM
As long as any libility issues are addressed I am in for a few shares!!!

lil brian
02-08-2006, 01:09 PM
Actually quite a few states will not let you use the words INC in a LLC!!!!

1 pocket mike
02-08-2006, 01:14 PM
looks like years of burning bridges has lead cliff to swim across to meet up with the IPT players.

Eric.
02-08-2006, 01:18 PM
Actually quite a few states will not let you use the words INC in a LLC!!!!


Fine. You are right. I am wrong. Can we move on?


Eric

lil brian
02-08-2006, 01:58 PM
When starting a business or gambling match proper planning must be involved. A lot of gambling in pool involves planning and negotiation. This is the same in business. If you think education is expensive try being ignorant and see how expensive that is.

It is like not knowing how to two or three rail bank or kick in one pocket and then seeing your opponent do this to you and go 8 and out!!!! In life the people who plan and execute the best generally win.

Most pool players that have their entire livelyhood dependant on the game are broke or close to it. (Hopefully the IPT will change this.)

If it were my money on the line I would put it with someone who had a well thought out plan, could execute well, and coordinate the efforts.

Eric.
02-08-2006, 04:27 PM
When starting a business or gambling match proper planning must be involved. A lot of gambling in pool involves planning and negotiation. This is the same in business. If you think education is expensive try being ignorant and see how expensive that is.

It is like not knowing how to two or three rail bank or kick in one pocket and then seeing your opponent do this to you and go 8 and out!!!! In life the people who plan and execute the best generally win.

Most pool players that have their entire livelyhood dependant on the game are broke or close to it. (Hopefully the IPT will change this.)

If it were my money on the line I would put it with someone who had a well thought out plan, could execute well, and coordinate the efforts.

Lil Brian,

I don't think anyone is too interested in being lectured. Maybe you learned this stuff last semester(you strike me as a college student).

I'm not interested in a hair splitting contest on business law/practices. The topic is helping another poolplayer get ahead. Can I count you in for a donation?


Eric

lil brian
02-08-2006, 06:17 PM
Lil Brian,

I don't think anyone is too interested in being lectured. Maybe you learned this stuff last semester(you strike me as a college student).

I'm not interested in a hair splitting contest on business law/practices. The topic is helping another poolplayer get ahead. Can I count you in for a donation?


Eric

Thats hardly the case. I am a business man that has quite a bit of experience. I think it is great you are trying to get something started but proper planning by someone who obviously does not have all of his FACTS together is a train wreck waiting to happen. As far as the college student yes I did graduate from a top ten business school 12 years ago. Business wise I have accumulated a 10 million dollar real estate portfolio with a couple of friends over the last 4 years. Putting together a business venture whether big or small requires someone who can put all the resources together to make something work. I think your intentions are correct but you need better advisors or better knowledge to put this deal together.

Just as a quick question since you know what you are doing. Do you plan on have the proceeds flow through to each individual or the corporation or the LLC??? How do you handle the expenses??? Do you know how to get the maximum write offs per corporate entity???

What if a member plans on selling his share?? How does he get out??? exit strategy is just as important as getting into a business.

If you think I am just a college student bluffing just ask Diane.(she started the thread) She know who I am and will tell you I am not bluffing.

Brian

pokerhammer
02-08-2006, 06:38 PM
Thats hardly the case. I am a business man that has quite a bit of experience. I think it is great you are trying to get something started but proper planning by someone who obviously does not have all of his FACTS together is a train wreck waiting to happen. As far as the college student yes I did graduate from a top ten business school 12 years ago. Business wise I have accumulated a 10 million dollar real estate portfolio with a couple of friends over the last 4 years. Putting together a business venture whether big or small requires someone who can put all the resources together to make something work. I think your intentions are correct but you need better advisors or better knowledge to put this deal together.

Just as a quick question since you know what you are doing. Do you plan on have the proceeds flow through to each individual or the corporation or the LLC??? How do you handle the expenses??? Do you know how to get the maximum write offs per corporate entity???

What if a member plans on selling his share?? How does he get out??? exit strategy is just as important as getting into a business.

If you think I am just a college student bluffing just ask Diane.(she started the thread) She know who I am and will tell you I am not bluffing.

Brian


I call your bluff, I flopped the nut straight.

Gunn_Slinger
02-09-2006, 05:56 AM
So did Cliff get a sponsor?

Diane
02-09-2006, 08:24 AM
As a matter of fact, Cliff now has a couple of options! He and Jay Helfert are friends and Jay had made a nice offer to help; I think that's the route he will take. There are also some "industry" people who want to meet him and talk about a possible long-term plan.
Anyway, I didn't want everyone to argue over this, but you guys came up with some wonderful ideas and I learned a lot! I do appreciate all of the input and I know Cliff will get a kick out of reading some of this.
I want to wish him and all of the players the best of luck and want to thank the IPT for pools' new life...

THANKS AGAIN EVERYONE! :)

Eric.
02-09-2006, 09:31 AM
Thats hardly the case. I am a business man that has quite a bit of experience. I think it is great you are trying to get something started but proper planning by someone who obviously does not have all of his FACTS together is a train wreck waiting to happen. As far as the college student yes I did graduate from a top ten business school 12 years ago. Business wise I have accumulated a 10 million dollar real estate portfolio with a couple of friends over the last 4 years. Putting together a business venture whether big or small requires someone who can put all the resources together to make something work. I think your intentions are correct but you need better advisors or better knowledge to put this deal together.

I still think you're full of hoohaa. Most of the people I know with substantial assets don't need to brag, especially when your "10 mm real estate holdings" has NOTHING to do with this topic. BTW, you naively underestimated my experience in this area. It's what I do for a living. I work on Wall Street.

Just as a quick question since you know what you are doing. Do you plan on have the proceeds flow through to each individual or the corporation or the LLC??? How do you handle the expenses??? Do you know how to get the maximum write offs per corporate entity???

After reading Diane's response about Cliff, it's now a moot point. For the sake of argument, you are making a simple thing too complicated (inexperience?). The balance sheet is very simple. Ther is no overhead, complicated expenses, etc. Most times, less is more. K I S S.

What if a member plans on selling his share?? How does he get out??? exit strategy is just as important as getting into a business.

That would be in the corporate charter. Most likely, selling shares would be by quorum vote or restricted to "no selling", you just get the pass thru proceeds until the limited partnership/LLC/whatever dissolves.

If you think I am just a college student bluffing just ask Diane.(she started the thread) She know who I am and will tell you I am not bluffing.

I still have my doubts.

Brian


Apparently, this issue is done. I'm getting bored, as well. Best of luck to Cliff, I hope he goes and gets whatever he can.


Eric