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View Full Version : Viability of English and Low Squirt Shafts


ndakotan
11-18-2012, 06:12 PM
How much english do you use and does that amount have a correlation with whether you like Low Squirt shafts? Do Low Squirt shafts also help with draw/follow? Do you normally use english only on certain shots, no shots, to get in line only, or to stay in line? It seems to me that english is extremely useful in banks, kicks, and specialty shots (throw due to obstructing balls), but I generally use outside english on shots (position play notwithstanding) because it seems to me that 0.95 tips of english will play the same way as 1.05 tips of english, whereas 0.25 tips of left play way different than 0.25 tips of right. Opine with your thoughts and thought process.

I personally have little training in pool, most of my thought process is obtained from interpreting articles by Dr. Dave and Bob Jewett with my own experiences. Any misrepresentation or errors in statement are mine, not theirs.

ENGLISH!
11-18-2012, 06:34 PM
You seem to have a fairly good handle on it. I went to LD shafts in June of this year(OB Classic & McD i2). It did not take very long to adjust.

What is 'lost' is the ability to use the greater deflection to 'send' the CB out there & spin it back into a far away OB. It can still be done but it just takes a much more drastic adaptation.

I had to sell my 1st. venture into LD. It was a 314 Cat that had been 'juiced', sanded down. It would spin away with 'normal' type english & I just could not get used to it starting so 'straight' & then spinning away. In other words the swerve with it was more of a problem than the normal deflection/squirt. It was great in close quarters & I think it did put more draw on the ball as I was over doing it a bit too often. I sold it to a 'newbie' & he just loves it.

Regards,

Roger Long
11-18-2012, 07:23 PM
I'll try to keep this simple.

I believe in using english (meaning side-spin, only) whenever, and wherever, it is necessary in order to move the cue ball to a certain spot after it rebounds off a cushion. I also believe in using as much, or as little, english as is necessary to get the exact angle I need off of a cushion. I never use it to try and steer the cue ball before contact with the object ball unless I purposely employ a downward stroke with it.

I believe that cue ball deflection ("squirt") is something I have to deal with any time I hit the cue ball with english (meaning side-spin, only) on, or below, the horizontal axis with a firm stroke. I also believe that cue ball deflection is not something I have to deal with when I hit the cue ball with english (meaning side-spin, only) above the horizontal axis with a medium, or soft, stroke.

I believe that "low-deflection" shafts could lower the amount of cue ball deflection I might experience when hitting the cue ball with english (meaning side-spin, only) on, or below, the horizontal axis with a firm stroke; however, existing tests have shown that the actual amount of reduction achieved is not enough to entice me into paying a high price to acquire one, or interest me in spending any time to adjust to one.

I believe that robotic tests could be set up that would demonstrate my claims concerning the "above horizontal axis" hit. I also believe that all "low-deflection" shaft manufacturers would readily disagree with those same claims.

Roger

ndakotan
11-18-2012, 07:58 PM
Roger,

I see your point and agree with 90% of what you say. Less english, less complication, more better. I play 8 ball on bar tables (only game in town normally) so my experiences are tied to bar table 8 ball. I play area shape (i.e., an place on a decent line to the next shot, not blocked by a ball). I think it slightly foolhardy to play to a specific spot if you don't know if the table and balls are in good shape, so I'm happy with windows rather than spots. As I said, I like to play a little outside english if possible for the consistency, but I don't mind warping the ball if needed to get the throw I want or leave I want. I don't consider myself a great follow/draw shot player, but I get by with both. Larry N. has nothing to fear from my stroke;)

I have won team matches with goofy english off the rail, I'm generally pretty adventurous rather than conservative. I see english and top/bottom as essential to 40-50% of my shots (wild guess).

I like the LD shafts because they don't cost you anything as far as accuracy on easy shape shots, but they greatly help on spin shots. If you need to spin a ball in off the rail, it is nice to know you can aim at the spot with inside english and get the right spot rather than compensate for english squirt.

Just talking one-rail kicks, it is sometimes easier to kick with 1 or 2 tips side rather than centerball, and I find it less cumbersome to use a LD shaft to hit the spot I want than a standard shaft. Freddy's books and the big yellow 8 ball book (Robin Givens?) have some great 1 rail kick with english systems.

I'm partial to the OB Classic shaft on our league Valley Tables, but liked the Jacoby Hybrid shaft much better on the diamond tables at vegas. I don't know for sure what that means about the difference between the shafts, if that makes sense to anyone and can explain it to me, I'd love to hear it.

I'm intrigued by your assertion that squirt is much worse with below-center hits and want to look into that further. Is it not normal to have 2-3 ball squirt on a full table kick using any side?

I have no magical unreaslistic expectations with LD shafts or cues in general, I like the ones that send the ball in the right direction.

I'll try to keep this simple.

I believe in using english (meaning side-spin, only) whenever, and wherever, it is necessary in order to move the cue ball to a certain spot after it rebounds off a cushion. I also believe in using as much, or as little, english as is necessary to get the exact angle I need off of a cushion. I never use it to try and steer the cue ball before contact with the object ball unless I purposely employ a downward stroke with it.

I believe that cue ball deflection ("squirt") is something I have to deal with any time I hit the cue ball with english (meaning side-spin, only) on, or below, the horizontal axis with a firm stroke. I also believe that cue ball deflection is not something I have to deal with when I hit the cue ball with english (meaning side-spin, only) above the horizontal axis with a medium, or soft, stroke.

I believe that "low-deflection" shafts could lower the amount of cue ball deflection I might experience when hitting the cue ball with english (meaning side-spin, only) on, or below, the horizontal axis with a firm stroke; however, existing tests have shown that the actual amount of reduction achieved is not enough to entice me into paying a high price to acquire one, or interest me in spending any time to adjust to one.

I believe that robotic tests could be set up that would demonstrate my claims concerning the "above horizontal axis" hit. I also believe that all "low-deflection" shaft manufacturers would readily disagree with those same claims.

Roger

Patrick Johnson
11-18-2012, 08:07 PM
How much english do you use
As little as I can to get where I need to go.

...does that amount have a correlation with whether you like Low Squirt shafts?
I wouldn't like using english as much with a high squirt shaft.

Do Low Squirt shafts also help with draw/follow?
Some think so, but I don't believe it - no reason they would. They also don't cause more spin or more spin errors. In my experience they do make it harder to jump, but I don't know why.

Do you normally use english only on certain shots, no shots, to get in line only, or to stay in line?
Any shot, but I'm more hesitant on long shots and off the rail.

I personally have little training in pool, most of my thought process is obtained from interpreting articles by Dr. Dave and Bob Jewett with my own experiences. Any misrepresentation or errors in statement are mine, not theirs.
You have good taste in instructors.

pj
chgo

MitchAlsup
11-18-2012, 08:09 PM
Consider a shot where english is to be applied. There is a line down which the CB will roll (even it you only consider the point of impact). This line does not change between low deflection, normal deflection, or high deflection shafts.

The point of impact on the CB remain the same in order to 'put' the same amount of english on the CB. The velocity of the cue stick remains the same to put the same amount of velocity on the CB.

What does change is the shooters perception of where to aim this shot. Lower deflection shafts have less change from the no english shot to the english applied shot than higer deflection shafts.

But the path of the CB remains constant--given the same initial velocity and the same amount of spin.

The above is one reason I concentrate on the line of the CB instead of the point of impact on the OB.

ENGLISH!
11-18-2012, 08:27 PM
As I've said, I have an OB Classic & a McD i2. They have different tips so this may not be totally acurate but...the OB hits fine but seems to have a, how to say it, a bit less forceful hit than the i2. Now, it could be the different tips, but maybe not. I play in S. La., so, a change in humidity or temperature can really affect the cloth. On several occassions, I have had to switch shafts to accomodate to the conditons & make my adjusting to them easier & quicker.

Playing on bar tables where the CB is almost always 'diffferent' makes using english a bit of a necessity unless you have time to figure out the exact 'difference' & adapt.

I know CJ Wiley's thoughts on english & I would tend to agree, but when playing 8 ball on a bar table, I for one, seem better to 'guarantee' the angle the CB is going to take better with english rather than by relying on that 'different' ball for a tangent line. Often if you subconsciously focus on position without english, you will get the position but mis the shot. I can better get the angle or make sure I mis it on the side I want with english rather than the side I do not want.

Again, just my $0.02.

Regards,

plfrg
11-19-2012, 09:10 AM
why wouldn't the spin applied to the CB be different for LD vs higher D shafts? I don't know the answer but it seems like it could be tested.

If a HD shaft 'pushes' thru the CB (essentially pushing the CB offline a little) and an LD shaft doesn't, it seems like an LD shaft in theory should apply more spin? As it is possibly 'grabbing' the CB on the way thru as apposed to pushing offline? Given the same cue tip contact point on the CB.

I think the test wouldn't be as easy to set up as it seems but it should be doable. You would need similar tips, same tip diameter, same tip shape, same chalk, and you would probably need to find and use the correct pivot point of both cues. Then just hit the CB straight onto to the rail and see which one spins further on the rebound (creates a larger angle)?

CreeDo
11-19-2012, 09:47 AM
I use plenty of sidespin and draw, probably less follow than I ought to. I love to "spin my rock" as Grady used to say. Don't like to hit 'em hard.

I don't think the LD shaft plays much role in either my shotmaking decisions or position play, it only affects whether I miss the ball or not. That's the main difference, it changes where you aim.

Please don't buy any hype that it will give you better spin, more spin, better position play, super draw, etc. ...it just changes your line of aim to make the ball. I'll give an example of why people get fooled into overthinking these shafts.

This is one of my pet shots. You're almost straight in, with the wrong angle to get to the top of the table. But you can follow with a lot of inside spin to get to spot "A" or beyond. The trick is to cheat the pocket and hit the object ball as full as you can. So that's the orange line. And the yellow line is where the object ball goes into the hole.

Let's say you then aimed the exact same way with a traditional shaft. Right off the bat, the cue ball (black line) contacts the the 2 off the side, a bit less full. As a result, the 2 ball is overcut a bit (wrong side of the pocket, the blue line). So your cue ball hits the rail much lower, because you didn't hit as full. Then all that sidespin you used kicks in... but because it hit the rail lower, at a different angle (going slightly backwards even)... it only carries you to spot "B".

People don't always notice the subtle overcut, or the different rail contact point, so they assume the low deflection shaft just somehow spun the ball better. It didn't, it just deflected differently which combined with a lot of other factors to give you a different outcome.

http://i.imgur.com/8jkOQ.jpg

Donny Lutz
11-19-2012, 09:57 AM
I'll try to keep this simple.

I believe in using english (meaning side-spin, only) whenever, and wherever, it is necessary in order to move the cue ball to a certain spot after it rebounds off a cushion. I also believe in using as much, or as little, english as is necessary to get the exact angle I need off of a cushion. I never use it to try and steer the cue ball before contact with the object ball unless I purposely employ a downward stroke with it.

I believe that cue ball deflection ("squirt") is something I have to deal with any time I hit the cue ball with english (meaning side-spin, only) on, or below, the horizontal axis with a firm stroke. I also believe that cue ball deflection is not something I have to deal with when I hit the cue ball with english (meaning side-spin, only) above the horizontal axis with a medium, or soft, stroke.

I believe that "low-deflection" shafts could lower the amount of cue ball deflection I might experience when hitting the cue ball with english (meaning side-spin, only) on, or below, the horizontal axis with a firm stroke; however, existing tests have shown that the actual amount of reduction achieved is not enough to entice me into paying a high price to acquire one, or interest me in spending any time to adjust to one.

I believe that robotic tests could be set up that would demonstrate my claims concerning the "above horizontal axis" hit. I also believe that all "low-deflection" shaft manufacturers would readily disagree with those same claims.

Roger

I tend to agree with your view on the above and below center, but it may have more to do with the CB deflection being "assisted" with the low hit.

I do like the way you explain things. I have little doubt you're a very good instructor.

ENGLISH!
11-19-2012, 09:59 AM
Okay, firstly, I've only been playing with LD shafts since June, but I have been playing with english for roughly 46 yrs.

That being said, The 'scientist' are going to say that the spin is only dependent on the tip offset & the speed of the hit. Okay those are the simple facts with everything being totally equal. However, everything else is not totally equal. One shaft is pushing through the CB & the other shaft is deflecting off of the CB.

In my earlier post I mentioned that I had to sell a 'juiced' sanded down 314 Cat shaft because the swerve caused by spin was too much to deal with over distance vs a more 'balanced' ratio of deflection & spin from other shafts. The spin in close quarters was awesome. The problem was trying to 'control' the swerve over longer distances.

I 'think' that when the shaft deflects it is appling a bit more spin in a swiping manner. When a regular shaft forces its way through the CB it is pushing it both off line & forward. Hence the LD puts 'more' spin on, relative to the foward motion & momentum. That is how spin is put on other balls in sports, tennis, ping pong, volley ball, & golf. It is done by a 'glancing' hit. Throwing a curve ball is similiar as the fingers move from behind the ball to the side of the ball, hence applying 'side spin'.

Perhaps that explanation is not 'technically' correct as to the term more. It is a relative relationship. Which dynamic does one want to base it on? Is it more spin per foward motion or is it less foward motion per spin?

'We' perceive it as more spin. It 'seems' that a LD shaft can put 'equal' spin on the ball with a bit less effort/hit. So, if equal effort/hit is applied then it should equal 'more' spin.

That's my $0.02. Take it or leave it. I am not going to enter into a word war with anyone. If anyone has any questions feel free to PM me.

Regards,

Patrick Johnson
11-19-2012, 10:20 AM
why wouldn't the spin applied to the CB be different for LD vs higher D shafts? I don't know the answer but it seems like it could be tested.
It has been tested. I've tested it many times. There's no difference between shafts.

If a HD shaft 'pushes' thru the CB (essentially pushing the CB offline a little) and an LD shaft doesn't, it seems like an LD shaft in theory should apply more spin? As it is possibly 'grabbing' the CB on the way thru as apposed to pushing offline? Given the same cue tip contact point on the CB.
If they're both properly chalked, both kinds of shafts "grab" the CB the same way. The shaft doesn't produce two separate forces on the CB - forward momentum and sideways deflection - that produce different effects. It produces one "combined force" that points in a single direction.

Think of the shaft's force on the CB as an arrow that points from the tip through the CB a little to the side of center. With CB deflection the shaft is angled slightly off that line - a little more angle with HD and a little less angle with LD - but the force is still the same line pointing in the same direction: toward the CB's target. Only the shaft's angle changes.

In other words, it's the same single "force vector" on the CB, in the same amount and pointing in the same direction - so there's no difference in the amount of spin produced on the CB.

248792

pj
chgo

naji
11-19-2012, 10:42 AM
It has been tested. I've tested it many times. There's no difference between shafts.


If they're both properly chalked, both kinds of shafts "grab" the CB the same way. The shaft doesn't produce two separate forces on the CB - forward momentum and sideways deflection - that produce different effects. It produces one "combined force" that points in a single direction.

Think of the shaft's force on the CB as an arrow that points from the tip through the CB a little to the side of center. With CB deflection the shaft is angled slightly off that line - a little more angle with HD and a little less angle with LD - but the force is still the same line pointing in the same direction: toward the CB's target. Only the shaft's angle changes.

In other words, it's the same single "force vector" on the CB, in the same amount and pointing in the same direction - so there's no difference in the amount of spin produced on the CB.

248792

pj
chgo

With large tip players tend to pivot the cue more than with smaller tip. That is why you see 11.75 mm tips advertised as LD in reality you just get more in line with the no squirt line and provides less squirt. The smaller the tip/shaft the better.
End mass come into play if you shoot while pivoted.

Patrick Johnson
11-19-2012, 10:48 AM
With large tip players tend to pivot the cue more than with smaller tip.
Larger tips produce more squirt (because they have more end mass), so they must be pivoted more to compensate.

That is why you see 11.75 mm tips advertised as LD in reality you just get more in line with the no squirt line and provides less squirt.
The only way to "get (the shaft) more in line with the no squirt line" is to reduce squirt by reducing end mass.

End mass come into play if you shoot while pivoted.
End mass comes into play whenever you use sidespin. If you don't pivot (adjust your aim to compensate for squirt) you miss.

pj
chgo

naji
11-19-2012, 10:53 AM
Larger tips produce more squirt (because they have more end mass), so they must be pivoted more to compensate.


The only way to "get (the shaft) more in line with the no squirt line" is to reduce squirt by reducing end mass.


End mass comes into play whenever you use sidespin. If you don't pivot (adjust your aim to compensate for squirt) you miss.

pj
chgo

PJ, no matter what the end mass is, if your cue is parallel to line of aim (between CB & OB) the no squirt line, there will be no squirt.
End mass only effects when you are pivoted.

Patrick Johnson
11-19-2012, 10:57 AM
PJ, no matter what the end mass is, if your cue is parallel to line of aim (between CB & OB) the no squirt line, there will be no squirt.
End mass only effects when you are pivoted.
Maybe we're having a language problem, but squirt is produced whenever you strike the CB offcenter, no matter if you pivot or not.

pj
chgo

naji
11-19-2012, 11:05 AM
Maybe we're having a language problem, but squirt is produced whenever you strike the CB offcenter, no matter if you pivot or not.

pj
chgo

No language problem. Again i did not say you are wrong, i am saying what i think is right. Again, there are lots of variables that needs to be at right conditions.
Do you have a 9 or 10 mm shaft at your position?

Pay Up Sucker
11-19-2012, 11:09 AM
No language problem. Again i did not say you are wrong, i am saying what i think is right. Again, there are lots of variables that needs to be at right conditions.
Do you have a 9 or 10 mm shaft at your position?

That is the size of his regular playing cue :)

ENGLISH!
11-19-2012, 11:21 AM
PJ, no matter what the end mass is, if your cue is parallel to line of aim (between CB & OB) the no squirt line, there will be no squirt.
End mass only effects when you are pivoted.

Mr. Naji,

When you shoot with 'parallel' english there is still CB squirt & swerve. If your speed is 'perfectly' correct, you do not have to compensate for them as they will virtually cancell each other out. If your speed is different, say for positon purposes, you will need to compensate for them. You may be doing this subconsciously as I have done for many, many years & still do.

If you use some form of 'pivot' after initial aim, back hand, front hand, or combination of both, that is a form of compensation for the CB squirt & swerve. Again, you may be doing this subconsciously as well. I use all forms sometimes consciously, but for the most part I use them subconsciously & do not even know when, where, or why I 'choose' one way over the other one.

All that being said, there are times when one can use the squirt & swerve to shoot a certain type of shot to increase the cut angle on the object ball. This is when one pays particular attention to the squirt & swerve, A conscious effort.

Remember, a picture is worth a thousand words & a thousand words may not be enough to convey the most simple picture.

Best Regards,

naji
11-19-2012, 11:31 AM
Mr. Naji,

When you shoot with 'parallel' english there is still CB squirt & swerve. If your speed is 'perfectly' correct, you do not have to compensate for them as they will virtually cancell each other out. If your speed is different, say for positon purposes, you will need to compensate for them. You may be doing this subconsciously as I have done for many, many years & still do.

If you use some form of 'pivot' after initial aim, back hand, front hand, or combination of both, that is a form of compensation for the CB squirt & swerve. Again, you may be doing this subconsciously as well. I use all forms sometimes consciously, but for the most part I use them subconsciously & do not even know when, where, or why I 'choose' one way over the other one.

All that being said, there are times when one can use the squirt & swerve to shoot a certain type of shot to increase the cut angle on the object ball. This is when one pays particular attention to the squirt & swerve, A conscious effort.

Remember, a picture is worth a thousand words & a thousand words may not be enough to convey the most simple picture.

Best Regards,

Thanks Rick, i will stand by what i said, until further notice, it does not mean you or Pat wrong. There will be no squirt or swerve if your cue 100% parallel to table (no elevation), and parallel to the no squirt line. You will ask how can you have level cue, sure low english you will swerve, high english you can have level cue.

Cornerman
11-19-2012, 11:33 AM
I

248792

pj
chgo
I think there's something a little off on the picture. But this might be trivial to your point.

The final direction of the force vector is the same for the respective aiming line for the zero, low and high squirt cues (that's the goal), but the scalar (magnitude) of the Force vector shouldn't be the same if you hit the same point unless you have varying stroke speed.


Freddie <~~~ vector needs a magnitude and a direction

ENGLISH!
11-19-2012, 11:43 AM
Thanks Rick, i will stand by what i said, until further notice, it does not mean you or Pat wrong. There will be no squirt or swerve if your cue 100% parallel to table (no elevation), and parallel to the no squirt line. You will ask how can you have level cue, sure low english you will swerve, high english you can have level cue.

Mr. Naji,

Ahhh, that is what Mr. Long & I have 'discussed' & I tend to agree. But I would not 'speak' in absolutes.

Yes, high side, say between 10:30 & 1:30 maybe, will roll soooner & the diagonal roll will take the CB to that side. The ratio of squirt to swerve is different but it is still there & again depends on the speed of the shot. But I now 'see' what you meant with just a few more words, alot less than a thousand.

Best Regards,

Patrick Johnson
11-19-2012, 01:51 PM
There will be no squirt or swerve if your cue 100% parallel to table (no elevation), and parallel to the no squirt line.
Sorry, naji, but that's mistaken.

Squirt is caused by the CB rotating and pushing the tip to the side, simultaneously pushing itself (the CB) in the opposite direction. You can't have CB rotation (sidespin) without this happening - it's physically impossible.

When you think you're keeping your cue parallel to the CB's path and getting no squirt, then either your eyes are deceiving you or swerve is "hiding" the squirt. This is often true of above center hits, where swerve takes effect sooner - it doesn't mean there is no squirt; it just means it isn't as obvious to the eye.

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson
11-19-2012, 01:53 PM
...the scalar (magnitude) of the Force vector shouldn't be the same if you hit the same point unless you have varying stroke speed.
Yes, thanks - I purposely ignored that detail for simplicity's sake, since it isn't pertinent to my point.

pj
chgo

swest
11-19-2012, 02:13 PM
..................

naji
11-19-2012, 02:38 PM
Sorry, naji, but that's mistaken.

Squirt is caused by the CB rotating and pushing the tip to the side, simultaneously pushing itself (the CB) in the opposite direction. You can't have CB rotation (sidespin) without this happening - it's physically impossible.

When you think you're keeping your cue parallel to the CB's path and getting no squirt, then either your eyes are deceiving you or swerve is "hiding" the squirt. This is often true of above center hits, where swerve takes effect sooner - it doesn't mean there is no squirt; it just means it isn't as obvious to the eye.

pj
chgo

Thanks Pat, you do make a lot of sense, however, i will give this few more days and will decide if i am wrong, i will be 1st to admit it.

plfrg
11-20-2012, 08:15 AM
It has been tested. I've tested it many times. There's no difference between shafts.


If they're both properly chalked, both kinds of shafts "grab" the CB the same way. The shaft doesn't produce two separate forces on the CB - forward momentum and sideways deflection - that produce different effects. It produces one "combined force" that points in a single direction.

Think of the shaft's force on the CB as an arrow that points from the tip through the CB a little to the side of center. With CB deflection the shaft is angled slightly off that line - a little more angle with HD and a little less angle with LD - but the force is still the same line pointing in the same direction: toward the CB's target. Only the shaft's angle changes.

In other words, it's the same single "force vector" on the CB, in the same amount and pointing in the same direction - so there's no difference in the amount of spin produced on the CB.


pj
chgo

pj,
I like the image and think it explains the pivot point well. I guess in that instance it makes sense that the forces would be similar as that is essentially the definition of why the pivot point works.

Perhaps it's true for those that use BHE or FHE, that there is little to no difference assuming the pivot point is used. No one is perfect so there is likely some difference but may be too small to worry about.

However, it would not be physically possible for those that use parallel english. One option was pushing the ball aside and another was putting more energy into straight forward motion. The ball must spin on its axis more for the LD shaft. The forces on the CB have to be different if the "same" hit produces a different action.

Patrick Johnson
11-20-2012, 05:47 PM
plfrg:
Perhaps it's true for those that use BHE or FHE, that there is little to no difference assuming the pivot point is used. ...

However, it would not be physically possible for those that use parallel english.
Everybody "uses the pivot point". There's no such thing as "parallel" english. That's a (way too common) misperception.

pj
chgo

Masayoshi
11-20-2012, 06:41 PM
Everybody "uses the pivot point". There's no such thing as "parallel" english. That's a (way too common) misperception.

pj
chgo

I'm not sure why you think there isn't, but there certainly is parallel english and it is extremely useful. Probably more useful than any pivot method.

Roger Long
11-20-2012, 06:45 PM
Everybody "uses the pivot point". There's no such thing as "parallel" english. That's a (way too common) misperception.

pj
chgo

Patrick, is that something you can prove?

Roger

plfrg
11-20-2012, 07:56 PM
Everybody "uses the pivot point". There's no such thing as "parallel" english. That's a (way too common) misperception.

pj
chgo

that's simply not true or provable.

In fact when I was talking with Nick Varner on one of his tours I brought up BHE/FHE and he just looked at me with a funny look on his face like I was crazy. I'm not saying he used parallel english - I don't know, but it seemed like he either did use parallel english or at least thought he did. Perhaps I wasn't being clear enough to get my question answered...

You may be thinking that people may think they use parallel english but in reality they aren't exactly parallel. There are still people out there that use it, even if they aren't perfectly parallel.

Patrick Johnson
11-20-2012, 11:40 PM
Everybody "uses the pivot point". There's no such thing as "parallel" english. That's a (way too common) misperception.

pj
chgo
plfrg:
that's simply not true or provable.
Do you believe you can apply sidespin without producing squirt (CB deflection)?

pj
chgo

Masayoshi
11-20-2012, 11:56 PM
Do you believe you can apply sidespin without producing squirt (CB deflection)?

pj
chgo

Are you claiming "parallel english" is not possible because your definition of the "pivot point" is the point at which cue offset perfectly counteracts deflection? If not, disregard the following.

If so, I would claim your definition of "pivot point" is inaccurate. In order for it to be a "pivot point", you would actually have to willingly pivot from that point.

A "pivot point" is the point used to account for deflection with pivot based methods. The "pivot point" where cue offset and deflection cancel out is ideal for shots with no swerve or throw.

Thus methods that don't use a pivot, i.e. parallel english, don't have a pivot point. They do however have a point at which cue offset cancels deflection, but don't use it in favor of controlling curve and throw to cancel deflection instead.

EagleMan
11-21-2012, 12:33 AM
that's simply not true or provable.

In fact when I was talking with Nick Varner on one of his tours I brought up BHE/FHE and he just looked at me with a funny look on his face like I was crazy. I'm not saying he used parallel english - I don't know, but it seemed like he either did use parallel english or at least thought he did. Perhaps I wasn't being clear enough to get my question answered...

You may be thinking that people may think they use parallel english but in reality they aren't exactly parallel. There are still people out there that use it, even if they aren't perfectly parallel.

My experience is similar to yours. I have asked a LOT of top pros about parallel english and pivot points and most of them....9 out of 10...didn't even know what those things are.

They MAY use such things...but not knowingly or intentionally...at least if they were telling me the truth which I expect they were.

Possibly, that is explained by what I consider the FACT that most of the great ones got great via the "million shot method."

I am certain that the vast majority of the great ones played and practiced RELENTLESSLY...compulsively and fanatically to such an extent that they have played hundreds and hundreds of times more shots than even really good amateurs have ever shot.

So, they decide on the english (if any) they need for position and just KNOW how to adjust their aim to produce the desired results.

(-:

swest
11-21-2012, 12:51 AM
Look, the point of PJ's posts on this subject is simple:

1. Players use english (sidespin) and still make shots.
2. Applying english (sidespin) to the CB creates squirt.

therefore

3. Players have adjusted for squirt by changing their direction of aim slightly (i.e. pivoted, if you like).

Now, they may not call it pivoting, or BHE, or whatever, but they have done it, because otherwise they wouldn't make the shot.

ENGLISH!
11-21-2012, 05:28 AM
Thus methods that don't use a pivot, i.e. parallel english, don't have a pivot point. They do however have a point at which cue offset cancels deflection, but don't use it in favor of controlling curve and throw to cancel deflection instead.

I would tend to agree, but...

'Well, that depends on what the definition of is, is.' (Bill Clinton)

To what are 'we' relating 'parallel'?

I have been using what I would call 'parallel' english for nearly 46 years.

1. You line up a shot, with your eyes, from the center of the cue ball to the center of the ghost ball location.

2. You decide what amount of tip offset you are going to use.

3. You mentally adjust the ghost ball position accordingly.

4. You come down on the shot with the cue stick 'parallel' to the visual centerline running from the center of the cue ball to the center of the adjusted ghost ball location.

5 You shoot the shot with the cue stick running 'parallell' to the 'visual' line of the cue ball center to the center of the adjusted ghost ball. Hence it is 'parallel' to the visual center line.

Does the cue ball travel in a 'parallel' straight line, parallel to anything? No.

Is it a 'parallel' sight or aiming line system for aplling english? I'd say so.

Is it different from BHE, FHE, & a combination of the 'normal' BH/FH English, where they go in opposite directions? I'd say so.

So, it depends on what the definition of is 'parallel', is.

I also will get down on a shot first and then shift the whole cue, front & back including my bridge hand, to the side for a newly desired tip offset, 'parallel' to the sight line, or I will use BHE, FHE, or a combination of both.

Do these things require the correct foward speed to spin ratio? Yes. Are they a bit 'complicated'? A bit. Are they TOO complcated to be useful? I certainly do not think so.

Best Regards,

Patrick Johnson
11-21-2012, 07:08 AM
Look, the point of PJ's posts on this subject is simple:

1. Players use english (sidespin) and still make shots.
2. Applying english (sidespin) to the CB creates squirt.

therefore

3. Players have adjusted for squirt by changing their direction of aim slightly (i.e. pivoted, if you like).

Now, they may not call it pivoting, or BHE, or whatever, but they have done it, because otherwise they wouldn't make the shot.
Yes, that's one of my points: the cue must be "pivoted" unless the amount of swerve exactly matches the amount of squirt - call that the "effective pivot point" because it changes with the amount of swerve for each shot. Another point is that each cue also has a "natural pivot point" (the point at which you'd pivot if swerve didn't exist) which is a fixed characteristic of each shaft like tip width or taper, and exists at the same point on the shaft whether or not the cue is ever actually pivoted there, defining the squirt side of the squirt/swerve equation for each shot.

If there's enough flexibility in CB position, then it's theoretically possible to choose tip offset, butt elevation and speed to exactly match swerve with squirt to aim directly at the target with "parallel english". But I don't believe there's enough CB position flexibility to do this exactly on most shots, and I don't believe we're capable of seeing whether or not we've achieved it exactly for any shot. So I think players who try to make a practice of it are fooling themselves to some degree about how successful they really are - this is what I mean when I say parallel english doesn't really exist and everybody pivots.

The important question to me is which is better: aiming "parallel" with less choice of CB position or aiming pivoted with more choice of CB position?

It seems to me that both require the same degree of familiarity with the effects of tip offset, butt elevation and speed, and I'm comfortable with aiming pivoted, so I choose pivoting and more choice of CB position.

pj
chgo

naji
11-21-2012, 07:53 AM
Do you believe you can apply sidespin without producing squirt (CB deflection)?

pj
chgo

Hello PJ,
It is possible with small tip hitting CB at the inner offset, in another words, say CB Dia is 2" for argument sake, half of that is 1",half of 1" is 0.5", if your tip touches say 0.3" squirt will be minimum if not 0, it is hard to do with 13 mm tip, or at least from feel point of view.

Another factor, if you hold cue butt at end then it will be hard to judge if you parallel or not, if you bring hand say to balance point or 3 or 4" from balance point in joint direction you reduce pivoting (is this BHE and FHE), and will be almost 100% parallel.


I want to ask the question here, say i have glass or extremely smooth cloth surface, will there be a squirt? If not is squirt due to cue or friction

naji
11-21-2012, 08:02 AM
Everybody "uses the pivot point". There's no such thing as "parallel" english. That's a (way too common) misperception.

pj
chgo

Hi PJ,
I use parallel english without noticing i do, i aim exactly the same as regular center ball hit, with 12, 13 mm cues i adjust my aim for squirt, and elevation and swerve. With my 11 mm shaft i do not adjust for squirt, at times i check my alignment for very long shots, for sure i adjust for elevation and swerve.
All done before i go down.

ENGLISH!
11-21-2012, 08:58 AM
Hi PJ,
I use parallel english without noticing i do, i aim exactly the same as regular center ball hit, with 12, 13 mm cues i adjust my aim for squirt, and elevation and swerve. With my 11 mm shaft i do not adjust for squirt, at times i check my alignment for very long shots, for sure i adjust for elevation and swerve.
All done before i go down.

Mr. Naji,

What taper shafts do you play with & is the 11mm one a different taper than the others?

Also, are you playing with regular shafts or Low Deflection(squirt) shafts?

I'm just wondering if these differentials may be contributing to your perceptions.

Best Regards,

swest
11-21-2012, 09:10 AM
Yes, that's one of my points: the cue must be "pivoted" unless the amount of swerve exactly matches the amount of squirt - call that the "effective pivot point" because it changes with the amount of swerve for each shot. Another point is that each cue also has a "natural pivot point" (the point at which you'd pivot if swerve didn't exist) which is a fixed characteristic of each shaft like tip width or taper, and exists at the same point on the shaft whether or not the cue is ever actually pivoted there, defining the squirt side of the squirt/swerve equation for each shot.

If there's enough flexibility in CB position, then it's theoretically possible to choose tip offset, butt elevation and speed to exactly match swerve with squirt to aim directly at the target with "parallel english". But I don't believe there's enough CB position flexibility to do this exactly on most shots, and I don't believe we're capable of seeing whether or not we've achieved it exactly for any shot. So I think players who try to make a practice of it are fooling themselves to some degree about how successful they really are - this is what I mean when I say parallel english doesn't really exist and everybody pivots.

The important question to me is which is better: aiming "parallel" with less choice of CB position or aiming pivoted with more choice of CB position?

It seems to me that both require the same degree of familiarity with the effects of tip offset, butt elevation and speed, and I'm comfortable with aiming pivoted, so I choose pivoting and more choice of CB position.

pj
chgo

I guess I had neglected to account for the squirt/swerve scenario because I try to avoid swerve by keeping as level a cue as possible. So, yes, parallel w/squirt-correcting swerve (I still have a hard time accepting this as viable, but...) is the other option.

Roger Long
11-21-2012, 09:25 AM
Look, the point of PJ's posts on this subject is simple:

1. Players use english (sidespin) and still make shots.
VERY TRUE

2. Applying english (sidespin) to the CB creates squirt.
I DON'T BELIEVE THIS IS ALWAYS TRUE

therefore

3. Players have adjusted for squirt by changing their direction of aim slightly (i.e. pivoted, if you like).
I DON'T BELIEVE THIS IS ALWAYS TRUE

Now, they may not call it pivoting, or BHE, or whatever, but they have done it, because otherwise they wouldn't make the shot.
I DON'T BELIEVE THIS IS PROOF OF WHAT IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING

The above comments in RED are mine. I believe parallel english is the the most accurate way to shoot, and BHE ("back hand english") is something to stay away from unless you purposely use it with a downward stroke to maximize spin for a curve shot. Using BHE on a shot with normal roll will only cause the cue ball to go in the wrong direction.

Roger

Patrick Johnson
11-21-2012, 09:53 AM
...parallel w/squirt-correcting swerve (I still have a hard time accepting this as viable...)
Whether we accommodate swerve by adjusting our aim or accommodate our aim by adjusting swerve, we have to make the same kinds of estimates of the effects of tip offset, butt elevation and speed. Also, because we tend to stay within our "comfort zones" for offset/elevation/speed, we unconsciously "adjust swerve" a little when pivoting or adjust aim a little when "paralleling". In other words, I think there's some overlap the two approaches.

But I do think adjusting swerve (aiming "parallel) requires us to choose more often between compromising CB position or using combinations of offset/elevation/speed outside our comfort zones.

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson
11-21-2012, 09:59 AM
swest:
Applying english (sidespin) to the CB creates squirt.
Roger Long:
I DON'T BELIEVE THIS IS ALWAYS TRUE
The rotating cue ball always pushes the tip sideways, and so it must also push itself sideways in the opposite direction - that's squirt. It's also one of the most basic laws of physics.

How do you imagine this can be avoided?

pj
chgo

swest
11-21-2012, 10:03 AM
The above comments in RED are mine. I believe parallel english is the the most accurate way to shoot, and BHE ("back hand english") is something to stay away from unless you purposely use it with a downward stroke to maximize spin for a curve shot. Using BHE on a shot with normal roll will only cause the cue ball to go in the wrong direction.

Roger

The statements I made that you commented on were made under the assumption that one is shooting with as level a stroke as possible.

I have been operating under the belief that the following statement is an invariant: Given a level cue stick, striking the CB left or right of center causes the CB to travel on a vector whose direction is angled right or left (respectively) of the cue stick's vector.

No?

Patrick Johnson
11-21-2012, 10:08 AM
Do you believe you can apply sidespin without producing squirt (CB deflection)?

pj
chgo
naji:
It is possible with small tip hitting CB at [small] offset ... at least from feel point of view.
What it feels like is not necessarily the reality. No tip is small enough to produce sidespin without squirt.

say i have glass or extremely smooth cloth surface, will there be a squirt? If not is squirt due to cue or friction
Squirt is simply the direction in which the CB is initially propelled - exactly like propelling the CB in a direction without sidespin. The direction isn't changed by different surfaces.

Swerve is changed by different surfaces because it's caused by masse-type spin. This can make it seem like squirt is affected by the surface, but it's not really.

pj
chgo

ENGLISH!
11-21-2012, 10:34 AM
The above comments in RED are mine. I believe parallel english is the the most accurate way to shoot, and BHE ("back hand english") is something to stay away from unless you purposely use it with a downward stroke to maximize spin for a curve shot. Using BHE on a shot with normal roll will only cause the cue ball to go in the wrong direction.

Roger

Mr. Roger,

As we have already 'discussed', it also depends whether it is high or low with side english & the appropriate speed/tip offset spin ratio comes into play.

I believe these things are determined by the shot & postion need at hand. I generally keep my cue as level as possible for most shots & use a 'parallel' type aim as often as possible. Once the speed for position is determined & an amount of tip offset is chosen to go along with that speed the aim is fine tuned.

That being said, occassionaly, once down on the shot, that perspective may indicate that a change may be appropriate. I make these changes by a slight adjustment of more or less tip offset by simply sliding the entire cue right or left or... with a bit of BHE, FHE, or a combo of both. They may be very, very slight, but they are often the difference between success & failure in either pocketing the ball, position or scrathing or not.

Is it more simple to shoot with no english? The obvious answer is yes. But a little right or left english at times makes it so much easier to get very good position.

While 'talking' about all these parameters sounds complicated, the actual employment of them is relatively easy. They are intuitive in my opinion & can be used successfully with relative ease if we can just keep our brains out of the way & allow our amazing mind & body to simply get it done.

Do we think about riding a bike or do we simply just allow ourselves to ride the bike?

This long winded rant is not intended for you, Mr. Long, but more so for anyone out there that maybe is being scared off as to the viability of using english. One certainly does not need to use it as much as myself & can certainly take the approach of others including CJ Wiley & limit its use. But... the ability to use it should certainly be 'learned' & employed when beneficial to do so.

Best Regards,

naji
11-21-2012, 11:24 AM
Mr. Naji,

What taper shafts do you play with & is the 11mm one a different taper than the others?

Also, are you playing with regular shafts or Low Deflection(squirt) shafts?

I'm just wondering if these differentials may be contributing to your perceptions.

Best Regards,

My Taper is a nickel curvature, my shaft is not LD, because when i use pivot like for extreme outside or inside english i have to offset my aim a lot, if i bridge my shaft near the joint the squirt disappears, but my normal bridge is about 9-10 inch.

KMRUNOUT
11-21-2012, 11:32 AM
The above comments in RED are mine. I believe parallel english is the the most accurate way to shoot, and BHE ("back hand english") is something to stay away from unless you purposely use it with a downward stroke to maximize spin for a curve shot. Using BHE on a shot with normal roll will only cause the cue ball to go in the wrong direction.

Roger

Sorry but this is simply false. BHE works amazingly well, particularly if you have a long bridge and shoot with a LD shaft. It is almost magic. I think the majority of people use this method only without the obvious pivot. Instead they just get down on the line the cue would be on after they pivot. How does parallel english compensate for squirt? I think parallel english is the least accurate method. Who does this? (perhaps I should say, what high level player does this?)

I'm very curious why you would believe that applying english to the cue ball *doesn't* always produce squirt. Could you offer a single example in which using english does *not* produce squirt?

Trying to figure out where you're coming from,

KMRUNOUT

EagleMan
11-21-2012, 02:50 PM
The rotating cue ball always pushes the tip sideways, and so it must also push itself sideways in the opposite direction - that's squirt. It's also one of the most basic laws of physics.

How do you imagine this can be avoided?

pj
chgo

Hard to imagine that anyone would dispute your views on this. It is SO Newtonian.

Of course, it is possible that swerve can counteract squirt but as you clearly know, Force A being negated by Force B doesn't suggest that Force A doesn't exist.

(-:

Patrick Johnson
11-21-2012, 04:03 PM
It is SO Newtonian.
Totally, dude.

pj
chgo

Jal
11-21-2012, 05:40 PM
...
I'm very curious why you would believe that applying english to the cue ball *doesn't* always produce squirt. Could you offer a single example in which using english does *not* produce squirt?There's the oddball case where you're not hitting too far from center and swoop in the direction of the spin. You can even produce negative squirt (in the opposite direction from normal).

You do get some squirt reduction in the horizontal direction - the direction we have to adjust for - when combining follow or draw with sidespin. For instance, if you make contact along the line going from the center of the cueball to the two o'clock mark, you'll get just as much squirt as with pure sidespin, but directed toward the eight o'clock mark instead of nine o'clock. The horizontal component is thus reduced to 87%. If you hit along the one o'clock line, the horizontal component is reduced by 50% (squirt is now directed toward the seven o'clock mark).

Also, if you hit with high-right or high-left, the friction force points more sideways than with pure sidespin, and the subsequent swerve acts more immediately, so to speak, and might give the impression that there was no squirt to begin with. Not true, as you point out.

Jim

Patrick Johnson
11-21-2012, 06:11 PM
KMRUNOUT:
Could you offer a single example in which using english does *not* produce squirt?
JAL:
There's the oddball case where you're not hitting too far from center and swoop in the direction of the spin.
The swoop doesn't eliminate squirt - it just changes the cueing angle to compensate like always, right?

pj
chgo

Masayoshi
11-21-2012, 06:46 PM
Yes, that's one of my points: the cue must be "pivoted" unless the amount of swerve exactly matches the amount of squirt - call that the "effective pivot point" because it changes with the amount of swerve for each shot. Another point is that each cue also has a "natural pivot point" (the point at which you'd pivot if swerve didn't exist) which is a fixed characteristic of each shaft like tip width or taper, and exists at the same point on the shaft whether or not the cue is ever actually pivoted there, defining the squirt side of the squirt/swerve equation for each shot.

If there's enough flexibility in CB position, then it's theoretically possible to choose tip offset, butt elevation and speed to exactly match swerve with squirt to aim directly at the target with "parallel english". But I don't believe there's enough CB position flexibility to do this exactly on most shots, and I don't believe we're capable of seeing whether or not we've achieved it exactly for any shot. So I think players who try to make a practice of it are fooling themselves to some degree about how successful they really are - this is what I mean when I say parallel english doesn't really exist and everybody pivots.

The important question to me is which is better: aiming "parallel" with less choice of CB position or aiming pivoted with more choice of CB position?

It seems to me that both require the same degree of familiarity with the effects of tip offset, butt elevation and speed, and I'm comfortable with aiming pivoted, so I choose pivoting and more choice of CB position.

pj
chgo

It might seem that way at first, but really, adjusting for the swerve is much easier and intuitive than you would think. If I were to rate how difficult the adjustment is, I would say that its only slightly more difficult than determining how to get the cue ball to slide into the object ball for a stop shot.

Sure, a lot of the time you will not shoot it perfectly, just like a lot of the time the cue ball will not make a dead stop when you shoot a stop shot, but the fact that parallel english allows you to shoot softer more than makes up for any intuitive inaccuracies. Not to mention the huge visual advantage you get due to being able to point the cue in the same direction as you would with center ball.

You also might think that your cue ball becomes limited with parallel english, but it really doesn't if you are shooting the right shots. If you keep your speed consistent, which you should ideally be doing regardless of whether or not you pivot, the only factors should be what spin (both horizontal and vertical) you use and what elevation you use. The adjustments to elevation are so slight that they are essentially subconcious. So really, all you have to do is pick a spin and use it provided your feel is up to par.

There are however some spots where parallel english doesn't work and as with any system or method in pool, true mastery comes not from simply being able to use it, but from knowing what its limitations are.

With parallel english, you are slightly limited in that you cannot use a HARD stroke and expect to make the ball reliably and very close shots are much more difficult to account for. For hard and/or close shots, pivot methods are better.

Other than that, once you get say 3-4 diamonds away from the object ball, Not a whole lot of adjustment is needed as long as you have a good feel for the shot. Just visualize the swerve and throw working in your favor rather than simply adjusting for it.

ENGLISH!
11-21-2012, 07:06 PM
You also might think that your cue ball becomes limited with parallel english, but it really doesn't if you are shooting the right shots. If you keep your speed consistent, which you should ideally be doing regardless of whether or not you pivot, the only factors should be what spin (both horizontal and vertical) you use and what elevation you use. The adjustments to elevation are so slight that they are essentially subconcious. So really, all you have to do is pick a spin and use it provided your feel is up to par.

Mr. Masayoshi, ( I assume it's Mr. )

I particularly agree with the quote above & your entire post was well stated.

Best Regards,

naji
11-21-2012, 07:18 PM
Everybody "uses the pivot point". There's no such thing as "parallel" english. That's a (way too common) misperception.

pj
chgo

Today i was confronted with a shot where there were an OB # 1 about 4 to 5 " behind CB hiding almost 7/8th of it (like moon eclipse), in another word you cannot shoot CB with center hit, and only room for cue to shoot 100% parallel english other wise you would touch the OB # 1 if you pivot, and the OB #2 i want to pocket happens to line up nicely. I made it without having to adjust the aim like i would a pivot shot

plfrg
11-21-2012, 07:23 PM
Do you believe you can apply sidespin without producing squirt (CB deflection)?

pj
chgo

Perhaps a small amount of spin could be produced with little to no squirt, but that's not what I'm saying.

My point is that those that use parallel english don't care about squirt - they have already factored it in after thousands of shots and can accurately shoot using parallel english by unconsciously adjusting for any squirt that is occurring. I'm not saying they adjust by pivoting. I think they adjust the aimline they are on by keeping their cue as parallel to the original ghostball aimline as possible (I don't use parallel english myself but I'm guessing this is how they accomplish it).

I think more than a few people do use parallel english and some are very high level players.

plfrg
11-21-2012, 07:38 PM
My experience is similar to yours. I have asked a LOT of top pros about parallel english and pivot points and most of them....9 out of 10...didn't even know what those things are.

They MAY use such things...but not knowingly or intentionally...at least if they were telling me the truth which I expect they were.

Possibly, that is explained by what I consider the FACT that most of the great ones got great via the "million shot method."

I am certain that the vast majority of the great ones played and practiced RELENTLESSLY...compulsively and fanatically to such an extent that they have played hundreds and hundreds of times more shots than even really good amateurs have ever shot.

So, they decide on the english (if any) they need for position and just KNOW how to adjust their aim to produce the desired results.

(-:

I've found it very interesting to talk to a few pros about the aiming methods and shot routines they use. The answers I received were very similar. They simply don't complicate the issues like the rest of us do. Most of them couldn't explain a shot routine or their aiming method in any meaningful detail.

I'm not saying they don't know anything useful about pool, however, understanding what value they have is important. A higher level player could learn a great deal about strategy from the average pro that they could not get from the average instructor. A beginner level player is basically wasting their time and the pro's time.

It may sound funny but all of the back and forth on AZB isn't really good for your game. For instructors or people interested in understanding exactly what is happening, some of this is needed "research". But for anyone that is interested in serious competition, I would advise them to avoid AZB and all of the over thinking that happens here.

ENGLISH!
11-21-2012, 07:52 PM
It may sound funny but all of the back and forth on AZB isn't really good for your game. For instructors or people interested in understanding exactly what is happening, some of this is needed "research". But for anyone that is interested in serious competition, I would advise them to avoid AZB and all of the over thinking that happens here.

Interesting! I tend to agree. However, there certainly is value here for some developing players so long as they can keep their brains out of the way when they are actually playing.

If you don't mind, what does plfrg stand for? Is it playing for gold or playing leap frog?

Regards,

plfrg
11-21-2012, 08:35 PM
Interesting! I tend to agree. However, there certainly is value here for some developing players so long as they can keep their brains out of the way when they are actually playing.

If you don't mind, what does plfrg stand for? Is it playing for gold or playing leap frog?

Regards,

lol. I certainly don't play for gold. You will be hard pressed to get more than $20 out of my pocket. I only bet small sums when playing. Just enough to keep it interesting.

You got part of it right. It's short for pool frog. Couldn't think of anything else at the time...

ENGLISH!
11-21-2012, 08:41 PM
lol. I certainly don't play for gold. You will be hard pressed to get more than $20 out of my pocket. I only bet small sums when playing. Just enough to keep it interesting.

You got part of it right. It's short for pool frog. Couldn't think of anything else at the time...

So...I guess you shoot alot of 'jump' shots.

Best Regards,

naji
11-22-2012, 05:47 AM
Perhaps a small amount of spin could be produced with little to no squirt, but that's not what I'm saying.

My point is that those that use parallel english don't care about squirt - they have already factored it in after thousands of shots and can accurately shoot using parallel english by unconsciously adjusting for any squirt that is occurring. I'm not saying they adjust by pivoting. I think they adjust the aimline they are on by keeping their cue as parallel to the original ghostball aimline as possible (I don't use parallel english myself but I'm guessing this is how they accomplish it).

I think more than a few people do use parallel english and some are very high level players.

plfrg, i agree with what you saying 100%, except where you say unconsciously adjusting no good player or pro do anything without knowing exactly what is happening before they bend, especially of longer range shots, they run their check list before they go down, like i do, some pros do it quick, some slow.

only time it is hard to be parallel is when you have to put max english near miscue point of which is not frequent with top players. Or purposely want to make use of the CB deflection for hard cut by pivoting short of the pivot point.

naji
11-22-2012, 06:03 AM
I've found it very interesting to talk to a few pros about the aiming methods and shot routines they use. The answers I received were very similar. They simply don't complicate the issues like the rest of us do. Most of them couldn't explain a shot routine or their aiming method in any meaningful detail.

I'm not saying they don't know anything useful about pool, however, understanding what value they have is important. A higher level player could learn a great deal about strategy from the average pro that they could not get from the average instructor. A beginner level player is basically wasting their time and the pro's time.

It may sound funny but all of the back and forth on AZB isn't really good for your game. For instructors or people interested in understanding exactly what is happening, some of this is needed "research". But for anyone that is interested in serious competition, I would advise them to avoid AZB and all of the over thinking that happens here.


I agreed with you on earlier post, but what you saying in RED above is not 100% correct, you need every bit of information to master pool, weather instructor, student or a pro. The goal is to maintain consistency of pocketing balls every possible way just like pool room talk. Sure positioning or patterns play will only come from playing & practice.
An intelligent player will use this site to their advantage.

Jal
11-22-2012, 07:50 AM
The swoop doesn't eliminate squirt - it just changes the cueing angle to compensate like always, right?

pj
chgoI would think it can and does reduce/eliminate/reverse squirt. If you supply the sideways motion of the tip (endmass) prior to contact, the cueball doesn't have to do it. As it begins to rotate, it'll just "catch up" to the tip rather than having to push it aside.

But, I don't see this happening unless you're striking fairly close to center. The ball rotates too fast, otherwise. As you move farther away from center, your stroke has to become mostly swoop, with little forward motion, to have any significant squirt reduction.

I'm certainly not recommending any of this. The swoop introduces major problems with just striking the cueball where you intend.

Jim

Patrick Johnson
11-22-2012, 08:03 AM
Masayoshi:
...adjusting for the swerve [to aim parallel] is much easier and intuitive than you would think.
It may be just as easy as pivoting when you've practiced it enough, but why would I want to spend the time on something that limits CB control?

You also might think that your cue ball becomes limited with parallel english, but it really doesn't if you are shooting the right shots.
Controlling swerve vs. controlling the CB means different choices for tip offset, butt elevation and speed. If they're different then there's obviously a tradeoff, and the trade is obviously more swerve control for less CB control. I think that's inescapable. So what's the benefit that's worth giving up some CB control?

pj <- assuming it's equally easy, which I'm not convinced of
chgo

Patrick Johnson
11-22-2012, 08:12 AM
The swoop doesn't eliminate squirt - it just changes the cueing angle to compensate like always, right?

pj
chgo
Jim:
I would think it can and does reduce/eliminate/reverse squirt. If you supply the sideways motion of the tip (endmass) prior to contact, the cueball doesn't have to do it. As it begins to rotate, it'll just "catch up" to the tip rather than having to push it aside.
I don't buy this view of the tip/ball interaction, Jim. The "swooped" tip hits the CB at an angle that can be duplicated with a straight stroke at the same angle. How can one avoid squirt if the other can't? Are you claiming the CB goes parallel to that angle of attack if it's achieved by swooping? If it doesn't go parallel, what makes it deviate?

pj
chgo

plfrg
11-22-2012, 09:21 AM
plfrg, i agree with what you saying 100%, except where you say unconsciously adjusting no good player or pro do anything without knowing exactly what is happening before they bend, especially of longer range shots, they run their check list before they go down, like i do, some pros do it quick, some slow.


Not sure I agree with this. I think many very high level people don't get into the weeds on issues like this. They don't confuse themselves with details that are not important to winning in pool.

Many of them have mastered making balls long ago. Do they try to consciously guess how much squirt or deflection they need to account for an a specific shot? I doubt it. I didn't get the sense they were woofing me when I was speaking to a few of them about these issues.

As far as a shot routine goes, I do use one and believe it's essential. I think that more than a few pros shot routines don't resemble anything close to the step by step process than many try to teach.

plfrg
11-22-2012, 09:29 AM
[/COLOR]

I agreed with you on earlier post, but what you saying in RED above is not 100% correct, you need every bit of information to master pool, weather instructor, student or a pro. The goal is to maintain consistency of pocketing balls every possible way just like pool room talk. Sure positioning or patterns play will only come from playing & practice.
An intelligent player will use this site to their advantage.

Most things I say aren't 100% correct. However, on this issue I would disagree. You don't need every bit of information to master pool. You need the right information and your training needs to focus on core issues that are needed to win. Getting into the weeds on aiming systems, LD shafts, english, etc is not productive training.

My guess is those players at high levels that cloud their thought processes with all of this stuff are pretty rare.

naji
11-22-2012, 10:51 AM
Not sure I agree with this. I think many very high level people don't get into the weeds on issues like this. They don't confuse themselves with details that are not important to winning in pool.

Many of them have mastered making balls long ago. Do they try to consciously guess how much squirt or deflection they need to account for an a specific shot? I doubt it. I didn't get the sense they were woofing me when I was speaking to a few of them about these issues.

As far as a shot routine goes, I do use one and believe it's essential. I think that more than a few pros shot routines don't resemble anything close to the step by step process than many try to teach.

Maybe i did not make myself clear, on shots that require english, and a bit of a long range they require good attention to details.
SVB lost Japan tourney because of a jacked up cue shot, and OB is only a foot away from pocket, had he gave it thought he probably would have made it to finals.
Sure easy no english shots just aim and fire, although they are conscious of CB condition at contact.

Curious what is your level, are you an A, A-, A++??

Jaden
11-22-2012, 11:59 AM
[/COLOR]

I agreed with you on earlier post, but what you saying in RED above is not 100% correct, you need every bit of information to master pool, weather instructor, student or a pro. The goal is to maintain consistency of pocketing balls every possible way just like pool room talk. Sure positioning or patterns play will only come from playing & practice.
An intelligent player will use this site to their advantage.

I think a lot of stagnation occurs due to people starting to play at a high level and then they become afraid to learn something new out of fear that it will screw up their game. The truth is that learning something new almost invariably screws up your game temporarily, but unless you are in the TARpit with Shane holding your own, you should be willing to try new things and upset your game temporarily in order to improve and find what information and techniques will improve your game from where it is.

No matter how good you are, learning new information and figuring out which techniques work for you best are necessary unless you are completely happy where you are.

And like I said, unless you are holding your own against Shane et al... in the TARpit, then you shouldn't be happy where you are...

Jaden

Jaden
11-22-2012, 12:04 PM
I don't buy this view of the tip/ball interaction, Jim. The "swooped" tip hits the CB at an angle that can be duplicated with a straight stroke at the same angle. How can one avoid squirt if the other can't? Are you claiming the CB goes parallel to that angle of attack if it's achieved by swooping? If it doesn't go parallel, what makes it deviate?

pj
chgo

It would have to do with angular momentum where the mass of the cue is not relational to the angle of impact.

If you are swooping the impact angle will be variable in relation to a direct line at the same angle, so swooping could potentially reduce the effective mass at the point of impact.

Jaden

Patrick Johnson
11-22-2012, 12:46 PM
Me:
The swoop doesn't eliminate squirt - it just changes the cueing angle to compensate like always.
Jim:
If you supply the sideways motion of the tip (endmass) prior to contact, the cueball doesn't have to do it. As it begins to rotate, it'll just "catch up" to the tip rather than having to push it aside.
Me:
I don't buy this view of the tip/ball interaction, Jim. The "swooped" tip hits the CB at an angle that can be duplicated with a straight stroke at the same angle. How can one avoid squirt if the other can't? Are you claiming the CB goes parallel to that angle of attack if it's achieved by swooping? If it doesn't go parallel, what makes it deviate?
Jaden:
It would have to do with angular momentum where the mass of the cue is not relational to the angle of impact

If you are swooping the impact angle will be variable in relation to a direct line at the same angle, so swooping could potentially reduce the effective mass at the point of impact.
I don't know what the parts in blue mean. I'm guessing you're talking about the stick (when swooping) not being parallel with the tip's angle of impact, which might have some bearing on the amount of "involved endmass". If that's what you mean, then it may be true, but I can't guess what impact it would have on the shot - maybe it increases endmass and squirt. Anyway, I suspect any effect like that would be small.

pj
chgo

Jal
11-22-2012, 01:21 PM
I don't buy this view of the tip/ball interaction, Jim. The "swooped" tip hits the CB at an angle that can be duplicated with a straight stroke at the same angle. How can one avoid squirt if the other can't? Are you claiming the CB goes parallel to that angle of attack if it's achieved by swooping? If it doesn't go parallel, what makes it deviate?

pj
chgoPat, I'm not sure this will convince you, but imagine the long axis of the cue lined up with the CB's center at the moment of impact. However, the tip end of the shaft happens to be moving (swooping) to the right, say, as opposed to a straight-line motion from a normal stroke. It seems pretty clear that you're going to induce some right english from the friction between the ball and tip. In addition, the ball will be driven to the right slightly (the net force must be pointing to the right of center for the right english to be induced), so "squirt" will be in the opposite direction from normal. It's somewhat analogous to spin-induced throw between a CB-OB.

If contact is made ever so slightly to the right of CB center, instead of exactly at center, the situation/interaction won't immediately and abruptly change such that the cueball will now go left. As you move farther from center, however, eventually the swooping action won't be able to keep up with the induced spin, and the cueball will deflect left (i.e., the CB will have to do some pushing of the tip sideways).

Does that seem plausible to you?

Jim

genomachino
11-22-2012, 01:28 PM
How much english do you use and does that amount have a correlation with whether you like Low Squirt shafts? Do Low Squirt shafts also help with draw/follow? Do you normally use english only on certain shots, no shots, to get in line only, or to stay in line? It seems to me that english is extremely useful in banks, kicks, and specialty shots (throw due to obstructing balls), but I generally use outside english on shots (position play notwithstanding) because it seems to me that 0.95 tips of english will play the same way as 1.05 tips of english, whereas 0.25 tips of left play way different than 0.25 tips of right. Opine with your thoughts and thought process.

I personally have little training in pool, most of my thought process is obtained from interpreting articles by Dr. Dave and Bob Jewett with my own experiences. Any misrepresentation or errors in statement are mine, not theirs.

Hope things are going well in the north country.

I wanted to share what I'm doing right now.

I tried a shaft about 5 months ago. I havn't been totally happy with some things that I just can't do with my LD shaft.

1. Soft spin on a 1/4 ball cut coming off the rail. Outside english on this shot way inconsistent. cb would flatten out allot for no reason.

2. Shooting at the OB on a shoft shot the CB would curve too much with the LD shaft. Hard to control and predict.

3. Putting inside English on a shot that I wanted to come 3 rails around the table was difficult with cb trying to go too straight.

His name is Mitchell thomas and he made me a laminated shaft. I liked the way it played and thought it was the same as the predator 314 but it was not. I was getting just a little bit of deflection. At first i thought this is no good. But then I started to realize that these things that I was having trouble with the other shaft were gone with this one.

By giving up just a little bit of deflection, not much, this shaft plays like it should or like the old maple shaft did for the most part.

I get that little touchy feely spin and the ball does not curve uncontrolably. I can I can curve around balls and not worry about it curving into the ball I'm going around.

I can shoot a long shot with left English and not worry if it is going to curve an inch or maybe 2 on the way down. Easy to predict.

My draw shots are also easy to predict the length better.

I get some deflection but the other simple thing that I can do well now more than make up for it.

This is still an experiment in the making but I am liking what I see.

I put this shaft on without hardly any practice and played very well in a whole tournament.

I'm starting to think that a happy median might be better than stiffer than a board. At least it is seeming this way.

Now I have to find out if this guy is making the shafts like this on purpose or it's an accident?

Can he make them to all play exactly like this or is it a one time fluke?

If he can consistently make these the same I think he really has something here.

Anyway. Just wanted to share this with you my friend.

plfrg
11-22-2012, 02:09 PM
Maybe i did not make myself clear, on shots that require english, and a bit of a long range they require good attention to details.
SVB lost Japan tourney because of a jacked up cue shot, and OB is only a foot away from pocket, had he gave it thought he probably would have made it to finals.
Sure easy no english shots just aim and fire, although they are conscious of CB condition at contact.

Curious what is your level, are you an A, A-, A++??

I didn't see SVB play, but you may have meant that if he followed his normal shot routine as apposed to taking the shot for granted he would have made it to the finals. I think we get mentally exhausted sometimes and even the best players make mental mistakes.

For me personally, I ingrain proper technique and a shot routine and strive to not allow any conscious control or extra thoughts at the table. The shot routine is my program and when/if any extraneous thoughts occur, I refer to them as 'reset signals'. I essential reset from the shot and get back into my subconscious shot routine that is essential for performing under pressure.

I play in the open A BCA division and like many players with a full time job my game can swing significantly depending on how much time I have been playing. Last week I ran out 3 out of 4 times (BCA 8 ball). The fourth time I ran the table but screwed up position on the 8. The week before I felt like I could barely make a ball.

Lately I've been driving myself crazy with one pocket. It's a great game that can quickly show you how weak you are at controlling CB position. I'm looking for a cure to help me stop playing the game.

Patrick Johnson
11-22-2012, 02:27 PM
Pat, I'm not sure this will convince you, but imagine the long axis of the cue lined up with the CB's center at the moment of impact. However, the tip end of the shaft happens to be moving (swooping) to the right, say, as opposed to a straight-line motion from a normal stroke. It seems pretty clear that you're going to induce some right english from the friction between the ball and tip. In addition, the ball will be driven to the right slightly (the net force must be pointing to the right of center for the right english to be induced), so "squirt" will be in the opposite direction from normal. It's somewhat analogous to spin-induced throw between a CB-OB.
I still fail to see how this differs from stroking straight at the "swooped" angle of impact. How are they different? Is there something you can accomplish with one but not the other?

pj
chgo

naji
11-22-2012, 03:31 PM
I didn't see SVB play, but you may have meant that if he followed his normal shot routine as apposed to taking the shot for granted he would have made it to the finals. I think we get mentally exhausted sometimes and even the best players make mental mistakes.

For me personally, I ingrain proper technique and a shot routine and strive to not allow any conscious control or extra thoughts at the table. The shot routine is my program and when/if any extraneous thoughts occur, I refer to them as 'reset signals'. I essential reset from the shot and get back into my subconscious shot routine that is essential for performing under pressure.

I play in the open A BCA division and like many players with a full time job my game can swing significantly depending on how much time I have been playing. Last week I ran out 3 out of 4 times (BCA 8 ball). The fourth time I ran the table but screwed up position on the 8. The week before I felt like I could barely make a ball.

Lately I've been driving myself crazy with one pocket. It's a great game that can quickly show you how weak you are at controlling CB position. I'm looking for a cure to help me stop playing the game.

Thanks plfrg for sharing your level, i expected to be there from the way you have been commenting. One advise i give you coming from more than 30 years experience, do not shoot 8 ball or one pocket until you master 9 or 10 ball. Do not do like i did exactly 8 ball and then one pocket, only last year or so i started 9 ball practicing what i difference, that will teach you not to take things for granted.

Patrick Johnson
11-22-2012, 04:31 PM
I still fail to see how this differs from stroking straight at the "swooped" angle of impact. How are they different? Is there something you can accomplish with one but not the other?

pj
chgo
A low-tech way to test this:
- use a marked cue ball and check chalk marks
- hit the same spot on the cue ball both ways
- only count shots that hit the same rail target/rebound distance
- compare angle off rail

pj
chgo

porper-sig
11-22-2012, 06:40 PM
Not sure if Joe Tucker still posts on here but, seem to recall his favoring BHE over parallel pivot

Roger Long
11-22-2012, 06:58 PM
The rotating cue ball always pushes the tip sideways, and so it must also push itself sideways in the opposite direction - that's squirt. It's also one of the most basic laws of physics.

How do you imagine this can be avoided?

pj
chgo

The cue ball isn't rotating until after the tip strikes it, and the rotation starts taking affect largely after the ball leaves the tip, so I don't see how "the rotating cue ball always pushes the tip sideways."

I didn't ask for a definition of squirt. I already know what it is. I think your understanding of how, and when, squirt takes place may be a little deficient. Friction between the cloth and the ball is the major factor in determining how much squirt is involved in a shot. If you minimize friction, you'll minimize squirt.

Roger

Masayoshi
11-22-2012, 07:38 PM
It may be just as easy as pivoting when you've practiced it enough, but why would I want to spend the time on something that limits CB control?


Controlling swerve vs. controlling the CB means different choices for tip offset, butt elevation and speed. If they're different then there's obviously a tradeoff, and the trade is obviously more swerve control for less CB control. I think that's inescapable. So what's the benefit that's worth giving up some CB control?

pj <- assuming it's equally easy, which I'm not convinced of
chgo

Like I said before.

Speed should be roughly the same no matter what method you are using because using the same speed (or in non-Buddy Hall cases, the same 2 or 3 speeds) on every shot increases consistency by a great deal. So there is no tradeoff in speed.

You can use any tip offset you want provided you account for the curve with elevation, so there is no tradeoff there either.

I guess you could claim that butt elevation is a tradeoff, but really, its not like you are jacking up on every shot, just slightly inclined...and wait a minute, what am I saying...The tenet behind pivot techniques is that you must keep your butt as flat as possible so that you minimize curve. So logically, pivot methods would limit you MORE than parallel english because with parallel english you are able to adjusat your elevation freely.

Also 99% of cue ball control is simply a function of the speed you use, how the cue ball is rolling when it hits the object ball, and how much english you use. But again, ideally, your speed should be consistent on every shot. So by that measure, there really is nothing significant you can do with pivot methods that you can't do with parallel english EXCEPT for the aforementioned extemely hard shots and extremely close shots (actually you can do these things, it just becomes extremely difficult).

You could probably come up with a scenario where curving into the object ball creates an unfavorable angle off the object ball (even though the difference between the two is probably only a couple degrees at most), but really if you are shooting a shot that has such a small window to be successful, you are probably better off shooting a different shot.

Bob Jewett
11-22-2012, 08:08 PM
The cue ball isn't rotating until after the tip strikes it, and the rotation starts taking affect largely after the ball leaves the tip, ...
I'm not sure what you intended here, but the cue ball will never have more RPMs of side spin or draw than at the instant the tip and ball separate.

CJ Wiley
11-22-2012, 08:27 PM
How much english do you use and does that amount have a correlation with whether you like Low Squirt shafts? Do Low Squirt shafts also help with draw/follow? Do you normally use english only on certain shots, no shots, to get in line only, or to stay in line? It seems to me that english is extremely useful in banks, kicks, and specialty shots (throw due to obstructing balls), but I generally use outside english on shots (position play notwithstanding) because it seems to me that 0.95 tips of english will play the same way as 1.05 tips of english, whereas 0.25 tips of left play way different than 0.25 tips of right. Opine with your thoughts and thought process.

I personally have little training in pool, most of my thought process is obtained from interpreting articles by Dr. Dave and Bob Jewett with my own experiences. Any misrepresentation or errors in statement are mine, not theirs.

"Low Deflection" shafts are fine, but they still deflect slightly. I'm of the opinion that it's better to TRY to throw the shots and make the deflection process "your best friend," rather than some "evil enemy."

There's two trains of thought when playing rotation games. One is to let the table dictate what shot you hit. That would mean you look at the shot and it tells you what speed, what spin, and what angle (is the best to get on your next shot).

The other way is what I suggest. Develop a shot that enables you to maximize the pocket size. This means you line up to undercut the shot slightly (aim in the pocket, but on the "undercut side") and then either spin it, or deflect it to overcut{side} slightly.

Earl spins to accomplish this and I deflect it to "throw it in the pocket." I want to look at the table situation and MAKE my shot fit the scenario. I know this is not the "conventional" way of playing, but it's very effective and works great on tight, worn equipment. On new, fast cloth you shouldn't hit the shots quite as firm.

My preference is to deflect the ball slightly with a "Touch" of Inside because I can get a more consistent result by adjusting my speed, rather than my "aim". Then you can start playing a consistent angle as well. This means you're controlling the angle, the speed, and the spin according to your preference, not because the "table tells you the shot."

Sounds backwards, however, think about it, how well could you play if you hit the same speed, {same}place on the cue ball, and{same} angle{most}every time?

If I undercut a shot I hit it firmer and accelerate more next time. If you miss the same shot hitting a "slow spin shot," you don't really know what happened if you miss. There's more calulations, so therefore more variables to deal with.

This doesn't enable you to play a lot better, but it does enable you to know why you don't make shots. It's vitally important, when you don't make one to immediately know what happened exactly!

If you make an adjustment that's incorrect it could throw you off temporately enough to lose a whole match or gambling set. The amount of money involved in matches I've played prohibited this type of guessing. I had to KNOW!

When you spin the ball or try to hit center and miss there's a lot more variatables and it's difficult to know and adjust for "misses". This effects your ability to maximize "margin of error."

"The difference between an amateur and a professional is an amateur will practice until they CAN make shots and a professional will practice until they CAN'T miss shots." CJ Wiley

Patrick Johnson
11-22-2012, 09:42 PM
The cue ball isn't rotating until after the tip strikes it, and the rotation starts taking affect largely after the ball leaves the tip
The cue ball gains rotational speed the entire time the tip is in contact with it, which begins to slow the instant the tip is no longer in contact.

Friction between the cloth and the ball is the major factor in determining how much squirt is involved in a shot.
The "squirted" initial direction of the cue ball is just like the "unsquirted" initial direction - neither one is changed by cloth friction unless the cue ball has masse spin.

If you minimize friction, you'll minimize squirt.
You'll actually minimize swerve (which is caused by cloth friction), which will make it appear that there's more squirt, even though squirt will be the same.

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson
11-22-2012, 10:05 PM
...there really is nothing significant you can do with pivot methods that you can't do with parallel english...
I guess this is where we just disagree. I don't see how biasing my choice of cueing technique doesn't limit my cue ball control, and I don't see an aiming benefit that's worth that for me.

pj
chgo

naji
11-23-2012, 02:05 AM
I guess this is where we just disagree. I don't see how biasing my choice of cueing technique doesn't limit my cue ball control, and I don't see an aiming benefit that's worth that for me.

pj
chgo

Hi PJ, what is your skill level at your best estimation? What is your favorite game? Thanks.

Patrick Johnson
11-23-2012, 06:43 AM
Hi PJ, what is your skill level at your best estimation? What is your favorite game? Thanks.
B+ and one pocket (but I play 10 ball and 8 ball regularly too).

pj
chgo

dr_dave
11-23-2012, 06:55 AM
How much english do you useLike others, I use english only when it is called for, and then I use the amount appropriate for the given shot.

and does that amount have a correlation with whether you like Low Squirt shafts?No. However, I do prefer and use a low-squirt shaft because of the advantages it offers me personally. For a complete list of both advantages and disadvantages, see:
low squirt (low deflection or LD) shaft advantages and disadvantages (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/cue.html#low_squirt)

An LD shaft certainly doesn't directly help one get more spin on the ball; although, some people might think this. For more info, see:
getting more spin with an LD shaft (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/cue.html#spin)

Whether one uses an LD shaft or not, one still needs to know how to adjust one's aim for squirt, swerve, and throw where appropriate. For more info, see:
aim compensation for squirt (cue ball deflection), swerve, and throw (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#compensation)

Regards,
Dave

Jal
11-23-2012, 07:25 AM
I still fail to see how this differs from stroking straight at the "swooped" angle of impact. How are they different?It depends on how you define squirt. I'm using it to mean the angle between the long-axis of the shaft and the cueball's initial direction at/after impact. In that sense, the diagram below illustrates two very different squirt angles for the same effective tip offset (spin/speed ratio).

249274

Is there something you can accomplish with one but not the other?Unless you like to fan the cueball between shots, I can't think of anything, which is the point you're emphasizing. So the same thing as in the first figure above (swiping) can be done with a straight stroke, per below:

249275


Jim

Jal
11-23-2012, 07:43 AM
The cue ball isn't rotating until after the tip strikes it, and the rotation starts taking affect largely after the ball leaves the tip, so I don't see how "the rotating cue ball always pushes the tip sideways."

I didn't ask for a definition of squirt. I already know what it is. I think your understanding of how, and when, squirt takes place may be a little deficient. Friction between the cloth and the ball is the major factor in determining how much squirt is involved in a shot. If you minimize friction, you'll minimize squirt.

RogerRoger, if I may, I think you should take Patrick's response to heart. I'm certain you won't find anyone with the relevant technical background (and sober) who'll disagree with his points.

Jim

dr_dave
11-23-2012, 08:07 AM
... Friction between the cloth and the ball is the major factor in determining how much squirt is involved in a shot. If you minimize friction, you'll minimize squirt.Roger,

As PJ has stated, squirt (initial CB deflection) does not depend on cloth friction or shot speed. It depends only on the endmass (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/squirt.html#endmass) of the shaft and the amount of tip offset. However, swerve (CB curve) does depend a lot on cloth conditions and shot speed (and cue elevation, and whether or not the CB has top or bottom spin). When you say "squirt," do you mean the net effect of squirt and swerve (AKA "squerve" or "net CB deflection" or "net effective squirt")? That might help explain the apparent disagreement.

Here are some illustrations from my squirt, swerve, throw confusion resource page (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/squirt.html#confusion) that might help:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/images/English_effects.jpg

http://billiards.colostate.edu/images/effective_squirt.jpg

The following video also demonstrates the separate effects and explains how they are related:
NV B.70 - Squirt (cue ball deflection), swerve, and throw, from VEPS II (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-70.htm)

Regards,
Dave

naji
11-23-2012, 03:06 PM
Roger,

As PJ has stated, squirt (initial CB deflection) does not depend on cloth friction or shot speed. It depends only on the endmass (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/squirt.html#endmass) of the shaft and the amount of tip offset. However, swerve (CB curve) does depend a lot on cloth conditions and shot speed (and cue elevation, and whether or not the CB has top or bottom spin). When you say "squirt," do you mean the net effect of squirt and swerve (AKA "squerve" or "net CB deflection" or "net effective squirt")? That might help explain the apparent disagreement.

Here are some illustrations from my squirt, swerve, throw confusion resource page (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/squirt.html#confusion) that might help:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/images/English_effects.jpg

http://billiards.colostate.edu/images/effective_squirt.jpg

The following video also demonstrates the separate effects and explains how they are related:
NV B.70 - Squirt (cue ball deflection), swerve, and throw, from VEPS II (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-70.htm)

Regards,
Dave

Hi Dave,
Your graph does not say that throw happens only at slow speed (gearing) or stun. Is there a chance it can be modified one day. Thanks.

Masayoshi
11-23-2012, 07:57 PM
Hi Dave,
Your graph does not say that throw happens only at slow speed (gearing) or stun. Is there a chance it can be modified one day. Thanks.

It happens at all speeds due to friction. It just happens less at high speed

naji
11-23-2012, 08:23 PM
It happens at all speeds due to friction. It just happens less at high speed

I have to disagree here, if you have rolling CB at high speed and clean balls there will be no throw with english or no english. Just make sure the rolling already developed enough before it touches the OB.

Patrick Johnson
11-23-2012, 08:37 PM
I have to disagree here, if you have rolling CB at high speed and clean balls there will be no throw with english or no english. Just make sure the rolling already developed enough before it touches the OB.
With clean balls and a CB rolling at high speed throw is probably so small it doesn't matter (even less with inside spin), but it still technically exists. I don't think there's ever a time when friction between the rubbing surfaces is zero.

pj
chgo

dr_dave
11-23-2012, 09:02 PM
With clean balls and a CB rolling at high speed throw is probably so small it doesn't matter (even less with inside spin), but it still technically exists. I don't think there's ever a time when friction between the rubbing surfaces is zero.Throw is less at fast speed (in general), and with follow or draw, and with lots of inside english, but there is throw on every cut shot except when there is a "gearing" amount of outside english, in which case there is absolutely no throw.

For those interested in proof or additional information (including video demonstrations) related to this topic, see:
gearing outside english (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/English.html#outside)
throw resource page (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/throw.html)
squirt, swerve, and throw effects resource page (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#English_effects)

Regards,
Dave

iusedtoberich
11-23-2012, 10:05 PM
I'd like to thank the science guys for sticking in threads like these. It's so obvious that even good players have the information incorrect as to what is happening. The more the science guys correct the assumptions with video, math, and diagram proof, the sooner the "science" will become the common knowledge, instead of today's black magic understanding of the game.

Roger Long
11-24-2012, 07:52 AM
Roger,

As PJ has stated, squirt (initial CB deflection) does not depend on cloth friction or shot speed. It depends only on the endmass (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/squirt.html#endmass) of the shaft and the amount of tip offset. However, swerve (CB curve) does depend a lot on cloth conditions and shot speed (and cue elevation, and whether or not the CB has top or bottom spin). When you say "squirt," do you mean the net effect of squirt and swerve (AKA "squerve" or "net CB deflection" or "net effective squirt")? That might help explain the apparent disagreement.

Here are some illustrations from my squirt, swerve, throw confusion resource page (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/squirt.html#confusion) that might help:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/images/English_effects.jpg

http://billiards.colostate.edu/images/effective_squirt.jpg

The following video also demonstrates the separate effects and explains how they are related:
NV B.70 - Squirt (cue ball deflection), swerve, and throw, from VEPS II (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-70.htm)

Regards,
Dave

Dave:

Those are nice illustrations, but they're not proof of anything. They just illustrate your theory.

Whenever you mention "tip offset," I have to assume that you are meaning latitudinal offset. But I've been trying to emphasize that longitudinal tip offset plays a greater role than either latitudinal offset, or shaft "endmass," in the amount of actual cue ball deflection ("squirt") one experiences on any given shot.

My personal tests have shown that whenever I strike the cue ball above the equator with a normally elevated cue (which is more level than your illustration, by the way), using normal speed, and using parallel english (even though Patrick doesn't think parallel english exists), the cue ball rolls straight to the target. No deflection. No swerve. (At least that's what the observation from my end of the cue has always been.)

Last night, I had the opportunity to ask Tommy Kennedy to shoot this test multiple times while I observed the results from the other end of the table. Then I shot the test multiple times while he observed from the other end of the table. We both observed the same results: no deflection, no swerve. The cue ball did not push away from the aim line and then curve back to the aim line.

So, my assumption is that you must be hitting the cue ball lower than I whenever you do your tests; and my theory is that the different results are due to the difference in the amount of friction between the ball and the cloth. And, as long as you stay above the equator with your hit, it doesn't matter if you use a standard wood shaft, a graphite shaft, or a "low-deflection" shaft; the results will be the same: no deflection, no swerve.

Roger
(p.s. Tommy showed me some shots that can only be made with a graphite shaft, due to its stiffness. Just a little benefit to you Cue Tec users. :wink:)

duckie
11-24-2012, 08:41 AM
This is a good example of setting up a test to prove anything you want.

In the test setup of a couple of test, the real world factors were either eliminated or efforts were made to reduce their affects.

In all, a level curve was used. The consistent use of a level cue in pool is impossible. More times than not, the cue will be somewhat elevated.

In one, the OB was hung like a blob pump, not even on a flat surface.

In one, the OB was on a silicone sprayed surface the OB was placed on in order to eliminate the affects of the cloth.

The speeds used in the testing are not reflective of the speeds used in shoot making. A speed of 2 mph, which is the low end in one test,is 2.9 ft per second or 35.2 in per second was used in one test. In one test, a speed of .7 ms is used, which is 2.2 ft per second or 27.5 in per second.

On a 9 ft table, the diamonds are 12 1/2 inches apart. Consider this next time you are playing. Better, just do one rack of 14.1 and see how many times you hit at any of these speeds used in testing.

So, do the tests really take into account the real world playing conditions or only conditions needed to prove a theroy?

I've mentioned counter steering in the past. This is a method of making a motorcycle or bicycle turn. The concept is to turn right, you push on the right bar which makes the front wheel turn left making the bike lean right. The rate of the push controls the rate of lean.

However, this method of steering works only above a certain speed. Below this speed, normal steering input is used meaning to turn right, you pull on the right bar and at these low speeds, the bike does not lean.

What this speed is where the crossover happens is not the same for every bike. So, there are conditions that you need to understand that occur to make this crossover happen.

Same with squirt. It only occurs under certain conditions so it is important to understand those conditions so you can stay below them in order to eliminate squirt. Anyone that uses squirt in order to make a shot is just adding unnecessary complications to their shot making. You will find this out the first time you play on sub standard equipment or conditions.

I've never have adjusted for squirt or defection. Why, because the way I play, squirt is not a factor. Like counter steering, I stay below the conditions where squirt can happen.

ENGLISH!
11-24-2012, 08:57 AM
Dave:


My personal tests have shown that whenever I strike the cue ball above the equator with a normally elevated cue (which is more level than your illustration, by the way), using normal speed, and using parallel english (even though Patrick doesn't think parallel english exists), the cue ball rolls straight to the target. No deflection. No swerve. (At least that's what the observation from my end of the cue has always been.)


Roger
(p.s. Tommy showed me some shots that can only be made with a graphite shaft, due to its stiffness. Just a little benefit to you Cue Tec users. :wink:)

Mr. Long,

From my 46 yrs. of experience in hitting the shot you describe, high-side english (10:45 to 1:15) at 'rolling' speed, I do not believe the CB rolls perfectly straight. I agree with you that any deflection/squirt is drastically reduced or offset by a much quicker swerve. However I feel the ball rolls with a ever so slight 'drift' (gradual swerve) to the english side.

The effect is to add a bit more cut & perhaps a bit of spin induced throw or 'gearing'/nuetrallizing spin & natually a different angle coming of of a rail. The later usually being the reason for shooting such a shot.

Naturally everything we're discussing is dependent on speed of hit, cue stick angle, cloth friction, & wind from the a/c blowing from the wall opposite from the english side & table lean.:wink:

In all seriousness, I think it would be an interesting laser line high speed video study.

Also, what is that graphite cue only shoot? I'm using a Cuetec Break/Jump cue & I was useing a graphite before the Cuetec.

Best Regards,

Masayoshi
11-24-2012, 09:29 AM
I have to disagree here, if you have rolling CB at high speed and clean balls there will be no throw with english or no english. Just make sure the rolling already developed enough before it touches the OB.

Unless you have frictionless balls, you get throw on any cut shot no matter the speed. Sometimes the effects are miniscule, but they are still more than zero due to physics.

Masayoshi
11-24-2012, 09:37 AM
Dave:

Those are nice illustrations, but they're not proof of anything. They just illustrate your theory.

Whenever you mention "tip offset," I have to assume that you are meaning latitudinal offset. But I've been trying to emphasize that longitudinal tip offset plays a greater role than either latitudinal offset, or shaft "endmass," in the amount of actual cue ball deflection ("squirt") one experiences on any given shot.

My personal tests have shown that whenever I strike the cue ball above the equator with a normally elevated cue (which is more level than your illustration, by the way), using normal speed, and using parallel english (even though Patrick doesn't think parallel english exists), the cue ball rolls straight to the target. No deflection. No swerve. (At least that's what the observation from my end of the cue has always been.)

Last night, I had the opportunity to ask Tommy Kennedy to shoot this test multiple times while I observed the results from the other end of the table. Then I shot the test multiple times while he observed from the other end of the table. We both observed the same results: no deflection, no swerve. The cue ball did not push away from the aim line and then curve back to the aim line.

So, my assumption is that you must be hitting the cue ball lower than I whenever you do your tests; and my theory is that the different results are due to the difference in the amount of friction between the ball and the cloth. And, as long as you stay above the equator with your hit, it doesn't matter if you use a standard wood shaft, a graphite shaft, or a "low-deflection" shaft; the results will be the same: no deflection, no swerve.

Roger
(p.s. Tommy showed me some shots that can only be made with a graphite shaft, due to its stiffness. Just a little benefit to you Cue Tec users. :wink:)

Above center hits cause enough curve and throw to cancel out deflection at slow to medium speeds. Its extremely difficult to see with the naked eye (maybe impossible), but the cue ball is with out a doubt deflecting out and curving back in.

dr_dave
11-24-2012, 10:21 AM
Dave:

Those are nice illustrations, but they're not proof of anything. They just illustrate your theory.Roger,

The diagrams are not based on my "theories." They are based on physics facts. And the physics facts can explain all observed effects.

Whenever you mention "tip offset," I have to assume that you are meaning latitudinal offset. But I've been trying to emphasize that longitudinal tip offset plays a greater role than either latitudinal offset, or shaft "endmass," in the amount of actual cue ball deflection ("squirt") one experiences on any given shot. In the context of most of my squirt resources, "tip offset" refers to how far the tip contact point is from the center of the CB in the horizontal direction (left or right). I'm a bit confused by your use of "latitudinal" and "longitudinal" offset. To me, a latitudinal offset would imply a vertical tip offset since changes in latitude correspond to north/south motion. It seems like by "latitudinal" you meant moving across lines of latitude (in the longitudinal direction). Regardless, I think I know what you mean. However, let's use "left/right" and "up/down" to correspond to horizontal vs. vertical tip motion.

Getting back to the point, squirt (initial CB deflection) increases with both horizontal tip offset and with shaft endmass. Proof and video demonstrations of these facts can be found here:
squirt endmass resource page (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/squirt.html#endmass)
squirt, swerve, and throw resource page (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#English_effects)

Now, with most shots at a pool table, the cue isn't perfectly level, therefore the CB also swerves (after it squirts), which acts in the opposition direction as squirt. Here's a video demo clearly explaining and illustrating the different effects:
NV B.70 - Squirt (cue ball deflection), swerve, and throw, from VEPS II (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-70.htm)

Now, as Jal has pointed out earlier (and as I think you are suggesting), there is less squirt when the tip contact point is above or below center. For more info, see:
squirt tip contact height effects (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/squirt.html#tip_height)

However, with any shot where the tip is not on the vertical centerline of the CB, there will be squirt. There will also be swerve if the cue is not perfectly level (which is almost never the case at a pool table).

Now with topspin shots, the swerve happens very quickly, especially at slow speed. The amount of squirt can be very small (especially with a small amount of sidespin and a low-squirt cue), and the swerve can happen very quickly and cancel the squirt. In this case, it could appear like the CB is going in a straight line immediately off the tip. The squirt is too small to see over a short distance and the small amount of swerve happens too quickly to notice. However, the effects would become more noticeable with more sidespin and faster speed. Added cue elevation would also make the swerve effect more noticeable.

My personal tests have shown that whenever I strike the cue ball above the equator with a normally elevated cue (which is more level than your illustration, by the way), using normal speed, and using parallel english (even though Patrick doesn't think parallel english exists), the cue ball rolls straight to the target. No deflection. No swerve. (At least that's what the observation from my end of the cue has always been.)I don't deny your results. Again, for a given amount of endmass, and for a given amount of sidespin, and for a given speed, the swerve can exactly cancel the squirt (i.e., there will be no net CB deflection from the aiming line), and the swerve can happen so quickly (e.g., over a couple of inches) that neither the squirt nor swerve would be noticeable.

So, my assumption is that you must be hitting the cue ball lower than I whenever you do your tests; and my theory is that the different results are due to the difference in the amount of friction between the ball and the cloth. And, as long as you stay above the equator with your hit, it doesn't matter if you use a standard wood shaft, a graphite shaft, or a "low-deflection" shaft; the results will be the same: no deflection, no swerve.Results would definitely vary with amount of left/right tip offset (more squirt and more swerve), cue endmass (more squirt), shot speed (delayed swerve), cue elevation (more swerve), and cloth conditions (delayed swerve with slicker cloth).

It is very easy to demonstrate all of these real effects.

Regards,
Dave

Roger Long
11-25-2012, 12:31 AM
Roger,

The diagrams are not based on my "theories." They are based on physics facts. And the physics facts can explain all observed effects.

In the context of most of my squirt resources, "tip offset" refers to how far the tip contact point is from the center of the CB in the horizontal direction (left or right). I'm a bit confused by your use of "latitudinal" and "longitudinal" offset. To me, a latitudinal offset would imply a vertical tip offset since changes in latitude correspond to north/south motion. It seems like by "latitudinal" you meant moving across lines of latitude (in the longitudinal direction). Regardless, I think I know what you mean. However, let's use "left/right" and "up/down" to correspond to horizontal vs. vertical tip motion.

Getting back to the point, squirt (initial CB deflection) increases with both horizontal tip offset and with shaft endmass. Proof and video demonstrations of these facts can be found here:
squirt endmass resource page (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/squirt.html#endmass)
squirt, swerve, and throw resource page (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#English_effects)

Now, with most shots at a pool table, the cue isn't perfectly level, therefore the CB also swerves (after it squirts), which acts in the opposition direction as squirt. Here's a video demo clearly explaining and illustrating the different effects:
NV B.70 - Squirt (cue ball deflection), swerve, and throw, from VEPS II (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-70.htm)

Now, as Jal has pointed out earlier (and as I think you are suggesting), there is less squirt when the tip contact point is above or below center. For more info, see:
squirt tip contact height effects (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/squirt.html#tip_height)

However, with any shot where the tip is not on the vertical centerline of the CB, there will be squirt. There will also be swerve if the cue is not perfectly level (which is almost never the case at a pool table).

Now with topspin shots, the swerve happens very quickly, especially at slow speed. The amount of squirt can be very small (especially with a small amount of sidespin and a low-squirt cue), and the swerve can happen very quickly and cancel the squirt. In this case, it could appear like the CB is going in a straight line immediately off the tip. The squirt is too small to see over a short distance and the small amount of swerve happens too quickly to notice. However, the effects would become more noticeable with more sidespin and faster speed. Added cue elevation would also make the swerve effect more noticeable.

I don't deny your results. Again, for a given amount of endmass, and for a given amount of sidespin, and for a given speed, the swerve can exactly cancel the squirt (i.e., there will be no net CB deflection from the aiming line), and the swerve can happen so quickly (e.g., over a couple of inches) that neither the squirt nor swerve would be noticeable.

Results would definitely vary with amount of left/right tip offset (more squirt and more swerve), cue endmass (more squirt), shot speed (delayed swerve), cue elevation (more swerve), and cloth conditions (delayed swerve with slicker cloth).

It is very easy to demonstrate all of these real effects.

Regards,
Dave

Dave:

I've viewed your video and read your resource pages on this subject numerous times, and I'm still not convinced that what you claim to be "physics facts" are are facts in all instances.

By your own admission, when you did your video tests you hit the cue ball with english on the horizontal center line. Plus, you hit it with considerably more speed and cue elevation than is required for most shots. Combining those three factors will definitely demonstrate what you wanted them to demonstrate: squirt and swerve.

But whenever I perform my tests, I hit with english above the horizontal center line. Plus, I use a normal speed (about 2-1/2 table length's travel) and a lower cue elevation. And when I perform the tests this way, neither my eyes, or Tommy Kennedy's eyes, have been able to detect any squirt or swerve.

Now I could use an illustration that would show the cue ball traveling in a straight line when I hit it in the above described manner, but that alone wouldn't prove that my findings are facts. But the same goes for your illustration. It's nice, but it doesn't really prove anything. It's just an illustration of what your training has taught you to believe are facts.

The real facts could only be proven if someone were to conduct robotic tests hitting the ball the way that I've been hitting it. Is that something you could do for us?

Roger

naji
11-25-2012, 06:32 AM
Dave:

I've viewed your video and read your resource pages on this subject numerous times, and I'm still not convinced that what you claim to be "physics facts" are are facts in all instances.

By your own admission, when you did your video tests you hit the cue ball with english on the horizontal center line. Plus, you hit it with considerably more speed and cue elevation than is required for most shots. Combining those three factors will definitely demonstrate what you wanted them to demonstrate: squirt and swerve.

But whenever I perform my tests, I hit with english above the horizontal center line. Plus, I use a normal speed (about 2-1/2 table length's travel) and a lower cue elevation. And when I perform the tests this way, neither my eyes, or Tommy Kennedy's eyes, have been able to detect any squirt or swerve.

Now I could use an illustration that would show the cue ball traveling in a straight line when I hit it in the above described manner, but that alone wouldn't prove that my findings are facts. But the same goes for your illustration. It's nice, but it doesn't really prove anything. It's just an illustration of what your training has taught you to believe are facts.

The real facts could only be proven if someone were to conduct robotic tests hitting the ball the way that I've been hitting it. Is that something you could do for us?

Roger

I notice one or two times Dr. Dave said you hardly can shoot a shot in pool with english unless you are elevated; i was going to answer but did not, now your post came. With high left or right or center and tip all the way at top you will have 100% leveled cue, and no need to adjust for swerve at all, maybe for slight squirt for very far shots, or CB close to a rail, or you shoot with pivot system.

dr_dave
11-25-2012, 06:36 AM
Dave:

I've viewed your video and read your resource pages on this subject numerous times, and I'm still not convinced that what you claim to be "physics facts" are are facts in all instances.

By your own admission, when you did your video tests you hit the cue ball with english on the horizontal center line. Plus, you hit it with considerably more speed and cue elevation than is required for most shots. Combining those three factors will definitely demonstrate what you wanted them to demonstrate: squirt and swerve.Again, the purpose for the faster speeds and larger tip offsests was to clearly illustrate that the separate effects exist. And the changes in speed, sidespin, cue elevation, and endmass clearly illustrate how the effects change as predicted by the physics. The effects also exist at slower speeds and above-center hits with less sidespin, but they can be small and cancel each other out too quickly to notice them. The only way to demonstrate this, is to shoot with a range of speeds, vertical and horizontal tip offsets, cue elevations, and conditions to see how the effects change as predicted. FYI to you and others, all of the effect trends are summarized (with supporting resources) in the numbered list beneath the videos and illustrations here:
squirt (cue ball deflection), swerve, and throw effects (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#English_effects)
All of the trends have been verified with physics analysis, testing, and/or video demonstrations.

But whenever I perform my tests, I hit with english above the horizontal center line. Plus, I use a normal speed (about 2-1/2 table length's travel) and a lower cue elevation. And when I perform the tests this way, neither my eyes, or Tommy Kennedy's eyes, have been able to detect any squirt or swerve.Again, I don't deny your results. You can't detect any squirt or swerve on these hits because the small amount of swerve is canceling the small amount of squirt too quickly to notice. What you are observing is no net CB deflection (i.e., no "squerve" or "effective squirt"). Again, I agree with you that the CB can appear to head very straight (and seem perfectly straight to the eye) with slow, near-level-cue, slow-roll shots with a relatively low-squirt cue.

The real facts could only be proven if someone were to conduct robotic tests hitting the ball the way that I've been hitting it. Is that something you could do for us?I honestly don't see any need for such a test. You seem to agree that squirt and swerve exist, and you seem to be aware of how they change with shot speed, shaft endmass, amount and type of english, cue elevation, and conditions (as demonstrated in the videos). We also agree that squirt and swerve can be small and cancel with certain shots, so there is no net CB deflection. You just seem to disagree with the physics explanation for what you are seeing at the table for a specific type of shot. I don't think any experiment could convince you otherwise, nor is there a need to convince you. Results at the table are what really matter. You explain it one way (squirt and swerve don't exist for slow-roll shots with sidespin), and I explain it based on the physics that governs all shots with sidespin (for slow-roll shots with sidespin, with a near-level cue and a low-squirt shaft, squirt and swerve are small and cancel quickly), but we both agree on the outcome (the CB heads seemingly perfectly straight immediately off the tip).

Regards and Happy Holidays,
Dave

Roger Long
11-25-2012, 02:52 PM
Again, I agree with you that the CB can appear to head very straight (and seem perfectly straight to the eye) with slow, near-level-cue, slow-roll shots with a relatively low-squirt cue.

You just seem to disagree with the physics explanation for what you are seeing at the table for a specific type of shot. I don't think any experiment could convince you otherwise, nor is there a need to convince you. Results at the table are what really matter. You explain it one way (squirt and swerve don't exist for slow-roll shots with sidespin), and I explain it based on the physics that governs all shots with sidespin (for slow-roll shots with sidespin, with a near-level cue and a low-squirt shaft, squirt and swerve are small and cancel quickly), but we both agree on the outcome (the CB heads seemingly perfectly straight immediately off the tip).

Regards and Happy Holidays,
Dave

Dave:

I'm getting my results with a standard shaft, so if you was to remove the terms "low-squirt cue" and "low-squirt shaft" from your explanations, we would be in perfect agreement. :thumbup:

Roger

AtLarge
11-25-2012, 04:25 PM
Roger -- Take a butt-screw joint protector that's flat on both ends, and put it on the center line of the table, with the CB resting in the pin hole, a bit off one of the short rails -- like teeing up a golf ball (a cube of chalk doesn't work as well). Strike the CB the way you describe ("above the equator with a normally elevated cue ..., using normal speed, and using parallel english").

Does the CB go straight down the center line of the table? No, it doesn't. It squirts out to the opposite side of the english and will probably strike the far short rail quite a distance from the center of the rail. Since the swerve effect is delayed while the CB is in the air, you are better able to see the squirt effect.

ENGLISH!
11-25-2012, 04:41 PM
I understand the joint protector idea to give the CB squirt with no immediate swerve but the off line(squirt) could be caused by the CB rolling off of the curved edge of the joint protector. It might be 'better' to just get the CB to sit in the groove between the cushion & the rail & do the same thing.

Just trying to improve the parameters of the experiment.

Best Regards,

mantis99
11-25-2012, 05:30 PM
To be honest I don't think ld shafts make any appreciable difference in the production of spin, so I really think it just matters if you like the feel an ld shaft and want lower deflection. In my experience I can spin the CB the same with a regular shaft as with an ld shaft.

AtLarge
11-25-2012, 05:33 PM
... It might be 'better' to just get the CB to sit in the groove between the cushion & the rail & do the same thing. ...

On my table, a ball will not stay there, but it will stay on the cloth atop the cushion. I did try it from there, but I saw a more obvious effect of the squirt using a joint protector, perhaps because the cushion cloth had some effect doing it from the top of the cushion.

ENGLISH!
11-25-2012, 06:03 PM
On my table, a ball will not stay there, but it will stay on the cloth atop the cushion. I did try it from there, but I saw a more obvious effect of the squirt using a joint protector, perhaps because the cushion cloth had some effect doing it from the top of the cushion.

That's interesting but makes some sense, I think. I was concerned that the squirt could be accentuated by rolling off of the curved edge of the joint protector. Coming off of the rail there could still be a bit of initial 'swerve roll' if hit softly enough.

In my experience, for all practicle purposes I would play the 10:45 or 1:15 location tip hits as Mr. Long suggests as though they had no squirt & allow for a bit of swerve depending on speed & cloth conditions.

As I have said several times in other threads, I had to sell a Predator 314 Cat shaft that had been 'juiced', sanded down. The reason was that on long shots with side spin, the CB started 'too straight' & the swerve spin took over & the ball rolled to fast & far to the english side. Dealing with that much swerve to squirt ratio differential was much more than I wanted to deal with after playing with regular 'deflection' shafts for nearly 46 years.

IMO LD shafts are very viable for using english but inhibit the shot where you 'throw'/deflect the CB out there & spin it back to gain more cut angle. Other than that shot, I have adjusted fine in about 2 months of just casual play after switching.

Best Regards,

EagleMan
11-25-2012, 09:30 PM
I notice one or two times Dr. Dave said you hardly can shoot a shot in pool with english unless you are elevated; i was going to answer but did not, now your post came. With high left or right or center and tip all the way at top you will have 100% leveled cue, and no need to adjust for swerve at all, maybe for slight squirt for very far shots, or CB close to a rail, or you shoot with pivot system.

I used to believe exactly what you wrote above...but had it proven to me to be incorrect...at least on a Diamond table.

The shot was set up with the CB an inch off the head rail. A clip on level was placed on my cue to verify it was level.

I simply pushed the cue forward to contact the dead center of the virtical centerline with moderate speed...and I miscued 4 times in a row.

Admittedly, not all tables have the cushion profile of the Diamonds but I suggest that your "test" would only have a chance of success on rail profiles that are DEAD FLAT on top...and I don't think many of them are.

I suppose there are a FEW...a very few "normal" shots in pool where the butt of the cue doesn't pass over the rails and you could actually shoot UP toward the CB. But for all practical purposes very few shots in pool are actually level.

(-:

Patrick Johnson
11-25-2012, 09:40 PM
naji:
I notice one or two times Dr. Dave said you hardly can shoot a shot in pool with english unless you are elevated; i was going to answer but did not, now your post came. With high left or right or center and tip all the way at top you will have 100% leveled cue, and no need to adjust for swerve at all, maybe for slight squirt for very far shots, or CB close to a rail, or you shoot with pivot system.
EagleMan:
I used to believe exactly what you wrote above...but had it proven to me to be incorrect...at least on a Diamond table.

The shot was set up with the CB an inch off the head rail. A clip on level was placed on my cue to verify it was level.

I simply pushed the cue forward to contact the dead center of the virtical centerline with moderate speed...and I miscued 4 times in a row.

Admittedly, not all tables have the cushion profile of the Diamonds but I suggest that your "test" would only have a chance of success on rail profiles that are DEAD FLAT on top...and I don't think many of them are.

I suppose there are a FEW...a very few "normal" shots in pool where the butt of the cue doesn't pass over the rails and you could actually shoot UP toward the CB. But for all practical purposes very few shots in pool are actually level.

(-:
EagleMan is correct about this, and even when you can get a perfectly level cue (those rare times when the butt isn't over the rail) swerve can be a factor, particularly with firmly hit shots. I believe it's because of "downward squirt" - the cue tip rolling up on the cue ball creates a downward force that combines with sidespin to produce some masse.

This swerve is the probable reason that naji (and others) believe there's little or no squirt when hitting above center on the CB.

pj
chgo

dr_dave
11-26-2012, 07:13 AM
... You can't detect any squirt or swerve on these hits because the small amount of swerve is canceling the small amount of squirt too quickly to notice. What you are observing is no net CB deflection (i.e., no "squerve" or "effective squirt"). Again, I agree with you that the CB can appear to head very straight (and seem perfectly straight to the eye) with slow, near-level-cue, slow-roll shots with a relatively low-squirt cue.
...
You seem to agree that squirt and swerve exist, and you seem to be aware of how they change with shot speed, shaft endmass, amount and type of english, cue elevation, and conditions (as demonstrated in the videos). We also agree that squirt and swerve can be small and cancel with certain shots, so there is no net CB deflection. You just seem to disagree with the physics explanation for what you are seeing at the table for a specific type of shot. I don't think any experiment could convince you otherwise, nor is there a need to convince you. Results at the table are what really matter. You explain it one way (squirt and swerve don't exist for slow-roll shots with sidespin), and I explain it based on the physics that governs all shots with sidespin (for slow-roll shots with sidespin, with a near-level cue and a low-squirt shaft, squirt and swerve are small and cancel quickly), but we both agree on the outcome (the CB heads seemingly perfectly straight immediately off the tip).I'm getting my results with a standard shaft, so if you was to remove the terms "low-squirt cue" and "low-squirt shaft" from your explanations, we would be in perfect agreement. :thumbup:I accept your friendly amendment. I'm glad we reached a description acceptable to both of us.

Now, if the shaft you are using results in no net CB deflection for your particular shot, a shaft with more endmass would result in a slight net deflection to one side (due to the extra squirt), and a shaft with less endmass would result in slight net deflection to the other side (due to the squirt being less than the swerve). Results would also vary with shot speed, cue elevation, and conditions.

Regards,
Dave

Jal
11-26-2012, 09:20 AM
EagleMan is correct about this, and even when you can get a perfectly level cue (those rare times when the butt isn't over the rail) swerve can be a factor, particularly with firmly hit shots. I believe it's because of "downward squirt" - the cue tip rolling up on the cue ball creates a downward force that combines with sidespin to produce some masse.
Patrick, that downward force doesn't produce any masse spin component. You do get downward squirt, but not a spin axis that is tilted forward or backward.

Jim

naji
11-26-2012, 09:35 AM
I used to believe exactly what you wrote above...but had it proven to me to be incorrect...at least on a Diamond table.

The shot was set up with the CB an inch off the head rail. A clip on level was placed on my cue to verify it was level.

I simply pushed the cue forward to contact the dead center of the virtical centerline with moderate speed...and I miscued 4 times in a row.

Admittedly, not all tables have the cushion profile of the Diamonds but I suggest that your "test" would only have a chance of success on rail profiles that are DEAD FLAT on top...and I don't think many of them are.

I suppose there are a FEW...a very few "normal" shots in pool where the butt of the cue doesn't pass over the rails and you could actually shoot UP toward the CB. But for all practical purposes very few shots in pool are actually level.

(-:

Thanks EagleMan, i use level cue all the time in one pocket going from one side to the other for soft shots. Maybe because my tip is 11 mm and can afford to bring it down 1 or 2 mm lower than a 13mm shaft and clear the table rail. At times i notice my stroke is not leveled and causes the cue to tilt while i am shooting to cause a little swerve, but i fixed that.

dr_dave
11-26-2012, 10:12 AM
EagleMan is correct about this, and even when you can get a perfectly level cue (those rare times when the butt isn't over the rail) swerve can be a factor, particularly with firmly hit shots. I believe it's because of "downward squirt" - the cue tip rolling up on the cue ball creates a downward force that combines with sidespin to produce some masse.

This swerve is the probable reason that naji (and others) believe there's little or no squirt when hitting above center on the CB.Patrick, that downward force doesn't produce any masse spin component. You do get downward squirt, but not a spin axis that is tilted forward or backward.Good point, Jim. The squirt direction is always in a plane through the center of the CB, because the cue tip deflects away from the center of the CB during contact as the spin is imparted.

The only way to get swerve is with a non-level cue, where the main impulse of the cue has a downward component (creating masse spin).

I actually had not thought about this before. Thank you both for bringing it up.

Regards,
Dave

chevybob20
11-26-2012, 10:29 AM
I'll try to keep this simple.

I believe in using english (meaning side-spin, only) whenever, and wherever, it is necessary in order to move the cue ball to a certain spot after it rebounds off a cushion. I also believe in using as much, or as little, english as is necessary to get the exact angle I need off of a cushion. I never use it to try and steer the cue ball before contact with the object ball unless I purposely employ a downward stroke with it.

I believe that cue ball deflection ("squirt") is something I have to deal with any time I hit the cue ball with english (meaning side-spin, only) on, or below, the horizontal axis with a firm stroke. I also believe that cue ball deflection is not something I have to deal with when I hit the cue ball with english (meaning side-spin, only) above the horizontal axis with a medium, or soft, stroke.

I believe that "low-deflection" shafts could lower the amount of cue ball deflection I might experience when hitting the cue ball with english (meaning side-spin, only) on, or below, the horizontal axis with a firm stroke; however, existing tests have shown that the actual amount of reduction achieved is not enough to entice me into paying a high price to acquire one, or interest me in spending any time to adjust to one.

I believe that robotic tests could be set up that would demonstrate my claims concerning the "above horizontal axis" hit. I also believe that all "low-deflection" shaft manufacturers would readily disagree with those same claims.

Roger

Roger has done this so long and responded so often that he may have created the most effecient low deflection shaft post in AZB history. Good post and thank you.

Patrick Johnson
11-26-2012, 12:28 PM
Me:
...even when you can get a perfectly level cue (those rare times when the butt isn't over the rail) swerve can be a factor, particularly with firmly hit shots. I believe it's because of "downward squirt" - the cue tip rolling up on the cue ball creates a downward force that combines with sidespin to produce some masse.

This swerve is the probable reason that naji (and others) believe there's little or no squirt when hitting above center on the CB.
Jim:
Patrick, that downward force doesn't produce any masse spin component. You do get downward squirt, but not a spin axis that is tilted forward or backward.
Dave:
Good point, Jim. The squirt direction is always in a plane through the center of the CB, because the cue tip deflects away from the center of the CB during contact as the spin is imparted.

The only way to get swerve is with a non-level cue, where the main impulse of the cue has a downward component (creating masse spin).

I actually had not thought about this before. Thank you both for bringing it up.
As usual, Jim makes a good point - you've dispelled a myth I've believed for some time, Jim!

But given the rarity of truly-level-cue shots, I continue to think swerve is the reason that naji and Roger (and maybe others?) believe hitting above center produces no squirt.

I notice in one of Roger's posts he says "...cue ball deflection is not something I have to deal with when I hit the cue ball with english ... above the horizontal axis" - which isn't exactly the same as saying there is no squirt - so maybe we actually don't disagree on the underlying dynamics.

pj
chgo

naji
11-26-2012, 12:56 PM
As usual, Jim makes a good point - you've dispelled a myth I've believed for some time, Jim!

But given the rarity of truly-level-cue shots, I continue to think swerve is the reason that naji and Roger (and maybe others?) believe hitting above center produces no squirt.

I notice in one of Roger's posts he says "...cue ball deflection is not something I have to deal with when I hit the cue ball with english ... above the horizontal axis" - which isn't exactly the same as saying there is no squirt - so maybe we actually don't disagree on the underlying dynamics.

pj
chgo

I think i am very close to an agreement that swerve cancels squirt, the one thing in my mind, is it because you, Dr. Dave and others shoot with cue elevated and hitting cue somewhat downward produces more friction with cloth, than shooting with level paralleled cue? I know You or, and Dr. Dave said squirt does not depend on friction, but i still have my doubts.

Patrick Johnson
11-26-2012, 01:28 PM
...i use level cue all the time in one pocket going from one side to the other for soft shots. Maybe because my tip is 11 mm and can afford to bring it down 1 or 2 mm lower than a 13mm shaft and clear the table rail.
The shaft diameter doesn't really matter - you can't get the bottom of a level shaft below 1 3/4" on most pool tables (even higher with the thicker butt over the rail), and that's too high:

249728

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson
11-26-2012, 01:31 PM
I think i am very close to an agreement that swerve cancels squirt, the one thing in my mind, is it because you, Dr. Dave and others shoot with cue elevated and hitting cue somewhat downward produces more friction with cloth, than shooting with level paralleled cue? I know You or, and Dr. Dave said squirt does not depend on friction, but i still have my doubts.
Everybody shoots downward; it's inescapable (see my drawing above). Anyway, shooting downward doesn't increase squirt; it increases swerve, which looks like less squirt.

pj
chgo

dr_dave
11-26-2012, 01:37 PM
I think i am very close to an agreement that swerve cancels squirt... only at certain speeds, cue elevations, shot distances, and conditions (for a given shaft).

the one thing in my mind, is it because you, Dr. Dave and others shoot with cue elevated and hitting cue somewhat downward produces more friction with cloth, than shooting with level paralleled cue?I shoot with the cue as level as possible (except when I need elevation for deliberate swerve, jump, or quick draw, or to clear an obstacle ball or cushion). However, with the cue as level as possible, it is still not level (due to required clearance over the rails). Anytime the cue is not level, there is swerve. The amount of swerve is small for small elevations, but there is still swerve; and in certain situations, the swerve effect can be just the right amount to cancel the squirt effect.

I know You or, and Dr. Dave said squirt does not depend on friction, but i still have my doubts.Squirt does not depend on cloth conditions, but swerve most certainly does. Therefore, net CB deflection (the combined effects of squirt and swerve, AKA "squerve") does depend on cloth conditions.

I'm glad the squirt and swerve story seems to be becoming more clear for you and some others.

Regards,
Dave

EagleMan
11-26-2012, 04:16 PM
EagleMan is correct about this, and even when you can get a perfectly level cue (those rare times when the butt isn't over the rail) swerve can be a factor, particularly with firmly hit shots. I believe it's because of "downward squirt" - the cue tip rolling up on the cue ball creates a downward force that combines with sidespin to produce some masse.

This swerve is the probable reason that naji (and others) believe there's little or no squirt when hitting above center on the CB.

pj
chgo

Thank you sir. One minor addition for those wishing to duplicate the test. The level must be clipped on the forward portion of the shaft.

Since ques get wider toward the butt the top and bottom lines are not parallel with each other...and therefore not parallel with the centerline of the shaft.

It is the centerline that determines whether the que is level. So, as suggested, the level should be clipped onto the forward part of the shaft...in the taper zone, where the top, bottom and centerlines are very nearly parallel with eachother.

Possibly illuminating the obvious, whenever the butt has to pass over a rail, it is that much more problematic to achieve a truly level cue than, say, when cueing with your hand flat on the rail such that only the taper portion of the shaft is passing over the cushion.

Stated yet another way to induce maximum frustration for the readers....(-:

IF the bottom line of the butt...which is what must pass over the rail...is level, then the tip will be positioned measurably higher over the table top than if the bottom of the forward portion of the shaft is level.

Now, to make you all pull your hair out...the closest thing there is to a level stroke that keeps the tip at or below the upper miscue line of the CB...assuming that some portion of the cue must pass over a rail...is when the portion of the cue that must pass over a rail is the most forward taper portion of the shaft.


(-:

Eagleman

Jal
11-26-2012, 10:08 PM
... you've dispelled a myth I've believed for some time, Jim!And you've returned the favor with post #122. So many instructional materials say to shoot frozen rail shots with a level cue. I've always felt, well, less of a player for not doing so. Now I can bask in being less of a lesser ....

Jim

ENGLISH!
11-26-2012, 10:16 PM
And you've returned the favor with post #122. So many instructional materials say to shoot frozen rail shots with a level cue. I've always felt, well, less of a player for not doing so. Now I can bask in being less of a lesser ....

Jim

Jim,

For what it's worth, I would suggest that you shoot from off the rail with as 'level' a cue as possible, depending on the shot at hand.

A cue ball that bounces rarely generates the desired intended result. It can but rarely.

Regards,

naji
11-27-2012, 09:41 AM
The shaft diameter doesn't really matter - you can't get the bottom of a level shaft below 1 3/4" on most pool tables (even higher with the thicker butt over the rail), and that's too high:

249728

pj
chgo

I agree. I shoot at the miss cue limit, i just noticed i do have very tiny downward elevation as i fire the shot not much to case huge swerve.

Middle of table CB, i think i get very close to leveled cue

Thanks to the pic nice one.

naji
11-27-2012, 09:44 AM
... only at certain speeds, cue elevations, shot distances, and conditions (for a given shaft).

I shoot with the cue as level as possible (except when I need elevation for deliberate swerve, jump, or quick draw, or to clear an obstacle ball or cushion). However, with the cue as level as possible, it is still not level (due to required clearance over the rails). Anytime the cue is not level, there is swerve. The amount of swerve is small for small elevations, but there is still swerve; and in certain situations, the swerve effect can be just the right amount to cancel the squirt effect.

Squirt does not depend on cloth conditions, but swerve most certainly does. Therefore, net CB deflection (the combined effects of squirt and swerve, AKA "squerve") does depend on cloth conditions.

I'm glad the squirt and swerve story seems to be becoming more clear for you and some others.

Regards,
Dave

Thanks Dr. my cue seems to be perfect fit to where i bridge at, sure for long table shot i do squirt a little when shooting with high speed english. I am in agreement



Thanks Dave.

ENGLISH!
11-29-2012, 04:18 PM
I spent 3.5 hours yesterday trying out CJ Wiley's Touch of Inside technique. I posted about the experience in CJ's 'wrist thread'.

I was reflecting back on it & the speed that I was hitting shots to assure that the CB deflected/squirted. The reasion is that I was obviously hitting the ball harder than I normally do & not getting the position that I wanted most of the time which is also not usual.

So here is something that I just realized. I was subconsciously more worried about hitting too softly and the CB not deflecting enough more so when I was hitting high on the ball. I did not have much concern when hitt low on the CB.

The resaon is that I was worrying that the CB might swerve and result in hitting the OB too full. This is a perception that I have through my experience. Like CJ sometimes says, we only recognize that with which we know or are familiar.

In hitting high and only a bit to the inside I was concerned that the CB would swere more than it would squirt if I did not hit it firm enough.

Keeep in mind that I'm playing in S.E. La. & that may be a contributing factor.

Just my thoughts on Mr. Long's premise even though I know it must squirt some. The question is in what ratio to the speed on a soft shot.

Regards,