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View Full Version : Ways To Keep Your Dominant Eye, Dominant


Mikjary
11-18-2012, 09:31 PM
I'm right handed, right eye dominant. When I play, my left eye occasionally sneaks in on the shot and causes a miss now and then. Usually because I'm tired or just plain lazy.

I have a few different ways to keep this from happening. I'd be interested to hear about other player's methods if any. I heard Buddy said to keep your dominant eye, dominant. But I never learned how he did it.

Best,
Mike

8pack
11-18-2012, 09:40 PM
I'm right handed, right eye dominant. When I play, my left eye occasionally sneaks in on the shot and causes a miss now and then. Usually because I'm tired or just plain lazy.

I have a few different ways to keep this from happening. I'd be interested to hear about other player's methods if any. I heard Buddy said to keep your dominant eye, dominant. But I never learned how he did it.

Best,
Mike

...............................

Neil
11-18-2012, 09:40 PM
I'm right handed, right eye dominant. When I play, my left eye occasionally sneaks in on the shot and causes a miss now and then. Usually because I'm tired or just plain lazy.

I have a few different ways to keep this from happening. I'd be interested to hear about other player's methods if any. I heard Buddy said to keep your dominant eye, dominant. But I never learned how he did it.

Best,
Mike

The tired part you know how to take care of. The lazy part, well, that's one of the things that separate you from playing even better than you do. We all do it, and kick ourselves afterwards. And, that's all it really is, just plain too lazy to stop when we know we should, and correct it. We shoot anyways, figuring the ball will go anyways. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.

The pros take the game a little more serious than "we" do, and don't allow that laziness to creep in. When they do, they miss routine shots too.

PaulieB
11-18-2012, 10:24 PM
Arse weights, beekeepers suit, and a pirates eye patch, of course!

oldplayer
11-19-2012, 05:42 AM
just the other night while practicing my long straight in shots, i had a series of misses always to the right of the pocket...not by much, more like hangers. i figured out my right eye dominate was "wondering" away from position and had to mentally focus on keeeping it in line. when the matches began i stayed more aware of the problem. guess it takes more practice but it was the first time i noticed it. i would much rather play than practice but it is the only way we get better and repair our problems.

One Pocket John
11-19-2012, 06:00 AM
Okay.....dont start laughing. Give this a try.

In the standing position behind the shot:
on the OB place an imaginary dot (about 1/8" in diam, white dots for dark colored OB's and black dots for light colored OB's) on the contact point of the OB and focus on the dot. Let your dominent eye line you up for the shot.

Works for me when I'm having issues. :smile:

John

oldplayer
11-19-2012, 06:09 AM
great idea,, i'll try that tomorrow! :thumbup:

FranCrimi
11-19-2012, 06:53 AM
I'm right handed, right eye dominant. When I play, my left eye occasionally sneaks in on the shot and causes a miss now and then. Usually because I'm tired or just plain lazy.

I have a few different ways to keep this from happening. I'd be interested to hear about other player's methods if any. I heard Buddy said to keep your dominant eye, dominant. But I never learned how he did it.

Best,
Mike

When something goes wrong in my game I always start with my approach and stance.

That first step you take into your stance sets the stage for success or failure.

If your approach and stance are inconsistent, you may at times be crowding the line of the shot with your body, and you will literally have to throw yourself off-balance to get your dominant eye over the cue, which is why your head wants to drift to the right.

Mikjary
11-19-2012, 06:59 AM
Okay.....dont start laughing. Give this a try.

In the standing position behind the shot:
on the OB place an imaginary dot (about 1/8" in diam, white dots for dark colored OB's and black dots for light colored OB's) on the contact point of the OB and focus on the dot. Let your dominent eye line you up for the shot.

Works for me when I'm having issues. :smile:

John

I could see :smile: how that may work. How about things like approaching the shot from either the left or right only, or turning your head as you aim/start your PSR? Some players blink their non D eye or even close it briefly to get the brain working right.

These are a few ways I've trained my mind, but I think there are lots more.

Best,
Mike

Tramp Steamer
11-19-2012, 07:03 AM
Arse weights, beekeepers suit, and a pirates eye patch, of course!

Like this one here.
You'll have to get used to the depth perception thing, but at least you'll be the coolest guy in the pool room. :smile:

chefjeff
11-19-2012, 07:05 AM
This is THE issue I'm struggling with right now. Some nights, my left eye gives up and lets the right eye (my naturally dominant eye) take over, so I miss.

I shoot MUCH better with my left eye being the dominant one, as I recently discovered. But I'm naturally right eye dominant and have shot that way for most of my life. I'm having an eye battle in my brain and it doesn't like it.

Fran is right, the approach of the stance really helps place the dominant eye over he shot property. I use Gene's "wall" technique and that seems to help the most to get and keep my left eye over the shot. But that fails occasionally, too.

Another technique for me is to close my right eye during the stance set up so my left eye is the only one that can do the job. This is hard for me, though, because of all my other eye problems and it gets fuzzy sometimes before the stance is made properly. So, sometimes, I cover my right eye with my right hand and relax as much as I can.

One other thing that is helping....When I use the "wall" technique to get my left eye in position, to got into my stance I bend my knees first, instead of bending at the waist first, so my body goes straight down and can't wobble to the other eye, if that makes sense.

Another thing is BEFORE going into the stance, be sure to see the shot with the proper eye while standing! Take the time while standing to make sure it is ok. If you wait until you're down on the shot, you can't change much then. Always do the eye thing while standing and then figure out a way to go straight down on the shot. That's the proper technique anyway, but when in stroke, sometimes I tend to unconcsciously rush past that part.

Jeff Livingston

Cornerman
11-19-2012, 08:09 AM
I'm right handed, right eye dominant. When I play, my left eye occasionally sneaks in on the shot and causes a miss now and then. Usually because I'm tired or just plain lazy.

I have a few different ways to keep this from happening. I'd be interested to hear about other player's methods if any. I heard Buddy said to keep your dominant eye, dominant. But I never learned how he did it.

Best,
Mike

I'm going to throw this out there. If we check a bunch of photos of great players, what percentage of them do we think we'd find have the cue over their dominant eye, their non-dominant (submissive?) eye or centered?

I'm seeing a lot of non-dom photos, some way out beyond the dom photos, and only a few centered.

Freddie <~~~ dominantly submissive

JoeW
11-19-2012, 08:37 AM
I determined where my head should be for my sight picture. Next, I determined where my chin should be relative to the cue stick. I always step into the shot placing my right foot and the cue stick on the shot line with my chin in the same place for every shot (yeah right). Well at least that is what I try to do.

I know there are others who teach different techniques but I find that when my chin is in the right place relative to the cue stick my eyes calculate relative to that position.

Works for me, your mileage may vary.

Mikjary
11-19-2012, 11:05 AM
This is THE issue I'm struggling with right now. Some nights, my left eye gives up and lets the right eye (my naturally dominant eye) take over, so I miss.

I shoot MUCH better with my left eye being the dominant one, as I recently discovered. But I'm naturally right eye dominant and have shot that way for most of my life. I'm having an eye battle in my brain and it doesn't like it.

Fran is right, the approach of the stance really helps place the dominant eye over he shot property. I use Gene's "wall" technique and that seems to help the most to get and keep my left eye over the shot. But that fails occasionally, too.

Another technique for me is to close my right eye during the stance set up so my left eye is the only one that can do the job. This is hard for me, though, because of all my other eye problems and it gets fuzzy sometimes before the stance is made properly. So, sometimes, I cover my right eye with my right hand and relax as much as I can.

One other thing that is helping....When I use the "wall" technique to get my left eye in position, to got into my stance I bend my knees first, instead of bending at the waist first, so my body goes straight down and can't wobble to the other eye, if that makes sense.

Another thing is BEFORE going into the stance, be sure to see the shot with the proper eye while standing! Take the time while standing to make sure it is ok. If you wait until you're down on the shot, you can't change much then. Always do the eye thing while standing and then figure out a way to go straight down on the shot. That's the proper technique anyway, but when in stroke, sometimes I tend to unconcsciously rush past that part.

Jeff Livingston

Dominant eye problems were the reason I quit playing 20 years ago. I never knew I had them until I started to play again and the internet provided the clue.

I don't miss with my right eye in the picture. When it's not, I can't run 3 balls in a row. If I miss a shot I freeze and look at my alignment. I look down and 99% of the time the cue is under my left, passive eye. I reset the shot and get my right eye in the picture and fire it in the hole.

Thanks for the approach info.

Best,
Mike

Mikjary
11-19-2012, 11:16 AM
I'm going to throw this out there. If we check a bunch of photos of great players, what percentage of them do we think we'd find have the cue over their dominant eye, their non-dominant (submissive?) eye or centered?

I'm seeing a lot of non-dom photos, some way out beyond the dom photos, and only a few centered.

Freddie <~~~ dominantly submissive

That's very interesting....

I determined where my head should be for my sight picture. Next, I determined where my chin should be relative to the cue stick. I always step into the shot placing my right foot and the cue stick on the shot line with my chin in the same place for every shot (yeah right). Well at least that is what I try to do.

I know there are others who teach different techniques but I find that when my chin is in the right place relative to the cue stick my eyes calculate relative to that position.

Works for me, your mileage may vary.


I've determined my best head/eye position, but was looking for a more reliable way to get there than what I'm using. I, too, use the chin touch method on some shots, but I don't get down so low on all shots. A good PSR is one weapon I use. I find that the first eye that sees the shot wants to take over the aiming job which complicates matters.

As I become more aware of my right eye being placed in the dominant position, I have noticed the stick gravitating farther to the right as time goes on. I wonder if my brain is trying to eliminate the influence of the left eye by moving more into right eye influence?

Best,
Mike

ENGLISH!
11-19-2012, 11:32 AM
I could see :smile: how that may work. How about things like approaching the shot from either the left or right only, or turning your head as you aim/start your PSR? Some players blink their non D eye or even close it briefly to get the brain working right.

These are a few ways I've trained my mind, but I think there are lots more.

Best,
Mike

Hi Mike,

I have an asigmatism in my dominant eye (it's a long story).

On certain very tight shots I have to close my non dominat eye to make sure that I am seeing it correctly. Many times I am not. I adjust with my eye closed. Open my eye for depth perception & shoot. It works well for me. I do not understand why it is mostly just for tight shots, but it seems to be. Maybe 'blocking' balls cause some form of opticle illusion or distraction. I don't know.

I hope this helps a bit. At least you know you are not alone with the problem.

Best Regards,

s'portplayer
11-19-2012, 12:27 PM
I use eye drops made from Chuck Norris tears.....makes my eyes perform flawlessly and also makes them bullet-proof. :thumbup:

Maxx
11-19-2012, 01:22 PM
I use eye drops made from Chuck Norris tears.....makes my eyes perform flawlessly and also makes them bullet-proof. :thumbup:

The only way you could get Chuck Norris to cry is if the ghost of the Duke kicked his a$$.

cookie man
11-19-2012, 01:48 PM
Its very important to make sure your dominate eye goes across the shot line during psr, sometimes we get lazy and don't do this, but it is very important.

AtLarge
11-19-2012, 03:49 PM
Its very important to make sure your dominate eye goes across the shot line during psr, sometimes we get lazy and don't do this, but it is very important.

Do you mean this for people who shoot with the cue between their eyes, or for people who shoot with the cue under their dominant eye, or for people who shoot with the cue outside their dominant eye, or for all?

Edit: And what is the rationale for doing it?

dr_dave
11-19-2012, 05:30 PM
I determined where my head should be for my sight picture. Next, I determined where my chin should be relative to the cue stick. I always step into the shot placing my right foot and the cue stick on the shot line with my chin in the same place for every shot (yeah right). Well at least that is what I try to do.

I know there are others who teach different techniques but I find that when my chin is in the right place relative to the cue stick my eyes calculate relative to that position.

Works for me, your mileage may vary.That's what I do also. I actually touch my chin to the cue while in my set position to verify my head is in the same place for every shot. With elevated shots, if it isn't comfortable to touch my chin to the cue, I glance down with my eyes and make sure the cue is centered between the two images I see (with each eye) of my big nose. Sometimes there are advantages to being a big-nosed Italian.

For people who haven't yet found their personal "vision center" position to create the best "sight picture," they might want to check out the vision center resource page (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/eyes.html#vision_center).

Regards,
Dave

s'portplayer
11-19-2012, 06:27 PM
The only way you could get Chuck Norris to cry is if the ghost of the Duke kicked his a$$.

Duke layed him out.....Saw it happen with BOTH EYES.....My buddies Jim B. and Jack D saw it too

Mikjary
11-19-2012, 08:52 PM
I'm going to throw this out there. If we check a bunch of photos of great players, what percentage of them do we think we'd find have the cue over their dominant eye, their non-dominant (submissive?) eye or centered?

I'm seeing a lot of non-dom photos, some way out beyond the dom photos, and only a few centered.

Freddie <~~~ dominantly submissive

Ok Fred. You've piqued my interest. It seems some players change their vision centers as they age. Not necessarily under their dominant eye, but off of and outside of their D eye. I am noticing a slight tendency to move the cue under my D eye as I increase the emphasis I give it in practice.

Possibly, I am refining my personal aiming technique and may notice even more change. As I stated before, I may be trying to find a way to stop my passive eye from having any chance of entering into the shot picture.

Best,
Mike

mristea
11-20-2012, 01:08 AM
Its very important to make sure your dominate eye goes across the shot line during psr, sometimes we get lazy and don't do this, but it is very important.


Pro One rules!:cool:

FranCrimi
11-20-2012, 07:09 AM
I'm going to throw this out there. If we check a bunch of photos of great players, what percentage of them do we think we'd find have the cue over their dominant eye, their non-dominant (submissive?) eye or centered?

I'm seeing a lot of non-dom photos, some way out beyond the dom photos, and only a few centered.

Freddie <~~~ dominantly submissive

Fred, which players place their cue under their submissive eye? I'd like to study them. I've been looking for players like that for a long time and have never been able to find one who doesn't do it because of an eye pathology in their dominant eye.

cookie man
11-20-2012, 03:50 PM
Do you mean this for people who shoot with the cue between their eyes, or for people who shoot with the cue under their dominant eye, or for people who shoot with the cue outside their dominant eye, or for all?

Edit: And what is the rationale for doing it?

I shoot under my dominate eye so i'll speak for that. I find its very important to make sure my dominate eye crosses the shot line, sometimes you get lazy and don't go into that exactness. That will lead very easily to inconsistent play and missing easy shots.

cookie man
11-20-2012, 03:53 PM
That's what I do also. I actually touch my chin to the cue while in my set position to verify my head is in the same place for every shot. With elevated shots, if it isn't comfortable to touch my chin to the cue, I glance down with my eyes and make sure the cue is centered between the two images I see (with each eye) of my big nose. Sometimes there are advantages to being a big-nosed Italian.

For people who haven't yet found their personal "vision center" position to create the best "sight picture," they might want to check out the vision center resource page (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/eyes.html#vision_center).

Regards,
Dave

Do you feel the cue has to be under your nose or centered under your chin for a person to find there vision center?

cookie man
11-20-2012, 03:53 PM
Pro One rules!:cool:

AMEN a thousand times!!!!!

Slim Limpy
11-20-2012, 04:27 PM
**********

HueblerHustler7
11-20-2012, 04:31 PM
Im left eye dominate and right handed. I use to shoot under my left eye, but the brain works with perception from both eyes. You should try ditching the whole one eye concept and start shooting directing under your chin Using both eyes... My game has dramatically improved...

DTL
11-20-2012, 05:38 PM
...........................

Cornerman
11-20-2012, 06:16 PM
Fred, which players place their cue under their submissive eye? I'd like to study them. I've been looking for players like that for a long time and have never been able to find one who doesn't do it because of an eye pathology in their dominant eye.

If you do an image search in Google for:

Willie Mosconi

http://outrageousluxury.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Willie-Mosconi-copy-417x278.jpeg

http://www.flickr.com/photos/calsidyrose/3617706635/lightbox/


Dennis Orcollo
http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/7879307/pool-dennis-orcollo-best-money-game-player-world-espn-magazine

Tony Robles
http://www.queensbuzz.com/pool-halls-in-jackson-heights-queens-cms-465-printer

Alex Pagulayan
http://behindsports.blogspot.com/2008/07/alex-pagulayan-reign-in-guinness-9-ball.html

There are photos of Rempe, Hopkins, Sigel like that, but not clearly enough from the head on to be certain.

I'm nearly 100% certain Ray Martin is normally submissive eye, but I can't find a good photo.

And every photo of Cisero http://www.newdeco.com/billiards/photos/Photo91.jpg

Adding Gabe Owens and Tony Drago.

Freddie <~~~ should be one of me from Rich R

dr_dave
11-20-2012, 06:18 PM
That's what I do also. I actually touch my chin to the cue while in my set position to verify my head is in the same place for every shot. With elevated shots, if it isn't comfortable to touch my chin to the cue, I glance down with my eyes and make sure the cue is centered between the two images I see (with each eye) of my big nose. Sometimes there are advantages to being a big-nosed Italian.

For people who haven't yet found their personal "vision center" position to create the best "sight picture," they might want to check out the vision center resource page (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/eyes.html#vision_center).Do you feel the cue has to be under your nose or centered under your chin for a person to find there vision center?My personal vision center (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/eyes.html#vision_center) happens to be exactly between my eyes, but this isn't the case for all people. That's why each personal needs to find their personal vision center, and be consistent with alignment.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
11-20-2012, 06:25 PM
Dear Dr. Dave,

do you have any suggestions for my poor Uncle Bean who is trying to learn pool for the first time? He claims to have a "lazy eye" but all I think he needs is a good aiming system.

Any suggestions would most certainly be appreciated.I couldn't tell if you were serious or not due the "cyclops" image in your post; but if you are serious, I would suggest your uncle try the drill described in the video on the vision center resource page (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/eyes.html#vision_center). Accurate and consistent alignment is important with aiming. Concerning an aiming method for a beginner, I would recommend simple ghost-ball aiming (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#ghost) (e.g., using the trick in NV 3.2 - Using the cue to help visualize the required aiming line of a shot (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/NV3-2.htm)).

Regards,
Dave

FranCrimi
11-20-2012, 07:39 PM
If you do an image search in Google for:

Willie Mosconi

http://outrageousluxury.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Willie-Mosconi-copy-417x278.jpeg

http://www.flickr.com/photos/calsidyrose/3617706635/lightbox/


Dennis Orcollo
http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/7879307/pool-dennis-orcollo-best-money-game-player-world-espn-magazine

Tony Robles
http://www.queensbuzz.com/pool-halls-in-jackson-heights-queens-cms-465-printer

Alex Pagulayan
http://behindsports.blogspot.com/2008/07/alex-pagulayan-reign-in-guinness-9-ball.html

There are photos of Rempe, Hopkins, Sigel like that, but not clearly enough from the head on to be certain.

I'm nearly 100% certain Ray Martin is normally submissive eye, but I can't find a good photo.

And every photo of Cisero http://www.newdeco.com/billiards/photos/Photo91.jpg

Adding Gabe Owens and Tony Drago.

Freddie <~~~ should be one of me from Rich R

Fred, are you referring to a cross dominant eye, rather than a submissive eye?

Ralph Kramden
11-20-2012, 08:25 PM
In some snooker videos I've seen players down so low they actually touch the
stick with their chin. Do they touch on the same side as their dominant eye?

Cornerman
11-21-2012, 05:13 AM
Fred, are you referring to a cross dominant eye, rather than a submissive eye?

Well I obviously can't do they eye test on them, so I am only assuming that they're opposite side is not dominant. I think it would be hard to believe that all of these players are cross dominant. It'd be easy enough to find out ( with Tony Robles for example).

More to the OP, I'm right eye dominant but any random non- staged photo will have the cue under my left. So maybe I'm your study, but you'd probably want a good player!

Freddie <~~~ in spite of all the bad

Siz
11-21-2012, 10:46 AM
I could see :smile: how that may work. How about things like approaching the shot from either the left or right only, or turning your head as you aim/start your PSR? Some players blink their non D eye or even close it briefly to get the brain working right.

These are a few ways I've trained my mind, but I think there are lots more.

Best,
Mike

There is some research showing that eye dominance can depend on lateral gaze angle; in the past when having sighting problems, I sometimes found it useful to turn my head away from the shot line in the direction of my non-dominant eye. Needs to be done before starting to get down. About 30 degrees seemed to work.

Mikjary
11-21-2012, 01:05 PM
There is some research showing that eye dominance can depend on lateral gaze angle; in the past when having sighting problems, I sometimes found it useful to turn my head away from the shot line in the direction of my non-dominant eye. Needs to be done before starting to get down. About 30 degrees seemed to work.

I turn my dominant eye (right) towards the shot to keep my other eye out of the picture. I approach the shot from the left to allow my right eye to see the shot first. If my left eye sees the shot, it will become the dominant eye and 95% of the time I will miss. 249107

Best,
Mike

FranCrimi
11-21-2012, 01:13 PM
Well I obviously can't do they eye test on them, so I am only assuming that they're opposite side is not dominant. I think it would be hard to believe that all of these players are cross dominant. It'd be easy enough to find out ( with Tony Robles for example).

More to the OP, I'm right eye dominant but any random non- staged photo will have the cue under my left. So maybe I'm your study, but you'd probably want a good player!

Freddie <~~~ in spite of all the bad

I'm pretty sure Tony is posing in that photo. Once the player sees a camera pointed at them, they usually will give up focusing on the shot. If they're not in competition at that moment, they'll just pose. That's my experience, at least.

I have found that a cross-dominant eye is not entirely rare. I still haven't come across proof of a player without an eye pathology who shoots with their cue under their recessive eye.

DTL
11-21-2012, 02:00 PM
......................

AtLarge
11-21-2012, 04:21 PM
... I still haven't come across proof of a player without an eye pathology who shoots with their cue under their recessive eye.

You mean the non-dominant eye, right?

peteypooldude
11-21-2012, 04:33 PM
You mean the non-dominant eye, right?

When all is said and done on this thread could you explain the findings in simple terms. I can usually understand your post pretty well

Siz
11-22-2012, 02:18 AM
Siz

I think this is what I was talking about a couple post back in this thread concerning eye issues. In his YouTube video Joe Tucker talks about retraining your eyes to see down the line correctly by shifting your head right or left depending on one's eye dominance......using the Third Eye Trainer as a visual aid to ensure your set right, see link below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYsNj7EXaAA Warning....intro is long.

Looks like this could be useful for some types of perception problems - I would be interested to hear how it works for you.

Mr Tucker is expecting your order...:smile:

The Renfro
11-22-2012, 02:37 AM
Siz

I think this is what I was talking about a couple post back in this thread concerning eye issues. In his YouTube video Joe Tucker talks about retraining your eyes to see down the line correctly by shifting your head right or left depending on one's eye dominance......using the Third Eye Trainer as a visual aid to ensure your set right, see link below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYsNj7EXaAA Warning....intro is long.

Using the 3rd eye trainer is a great idea but only to confirm your perception of the tip at address.... If you try to use it to create the base vision center focus you discount how the eyes work to create parallax which occurs at the object ball....

I have the 3rd eye trainer and highly recommend it for AFTER you establish your vision center to make sure you know where center is vs where it looks like it is....... Joe's 3rd eye trainer for the money may be the best training aid on the market to date out there.....

If you want bench marks Geno is your man.... He showed me several check points to the single one I use and showed him.... If I can get to a table over the weekend with a camera I can show you my trick but the video will be shorter than the time it will take for me to try and describe it in words.......

Cornerman
11-22-2012, 05:21 AM
I'm pretty sure Tony is posing in that photo. Once the player sees a camera pointed at them, they usually will give up focusing on the shot. If they're not in competition at that moment, they'll just pose. That's my experience, at least.

I have found that a cross-dominant eye is not entirely rare. I still haven't come across proof of a player without an eye pathology who shoots with their cue under their recessive eye.

He might be posing but there are many photos of him that the cue looks to be under his left eye, but someone could simply say the camera angle is misleading. This shot was the only one I could find where it was head on. And it wasn't too surprising that the cue was under his left eye.

To the earlier question of cross dominance, it looks like there ate two distinct head alignments : head square and head tilted. I would guess that one is cross dominance and the other is submissive alignment. Again, it'd be pretty easy to ask the pros to do a quick eye dominance confirmation for the forum members who know the ones I listed.

Freddie <~~~ submissively aligned

It should be little issue to find out.

FranCrimi
11-22-2012, 06:58 AM
He might be posing but there are many photos of him that the cue looks to be under his left eye, but someone could simply say the camera angle is misleading. This shot was the only one I could find where it was head on. And it wasn't too surprising that the cue was under his left eye.

To the earlier question of cross dominance, it looks like there ate two distinct head alignments : head square and head tilted. I would guess that one is cross dominance and the other is submissive alignment. Again, it'd be pretty easy to ask the pros to do a quick eye dominance confirmation for the forum members who know the ones I listed.

Freddie <~~~ submissively aligned

It should be little issue to find out.

My experience with players who tend to tilt their heads to view things (including myself) is because their dominant eye is severely dominant and they are viewing with their dominant eye.

chefjeff
11-22-2012, 07:26 AM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_SqhhJb_P3Kk/SXnak912fZI/AAAAAAAAEfk/XwYRANJJcgU/s400/branch+in+eye.jpg

Wow, a new aiming technique for using your pool cue.

Anyone wanna try it and post how it works?

Jeff Livingston

ENGLISH!
11-22-2012, 07:53 AM
My experience with players who tend to tilt their heads to view things (including myself) is because their dominant eye is severely dominant and they are viewing with their dominant eye.

Hi Fran,

Happy Thanksgiving!

Here's my $0.02. I've done alot of coaching in other sports, especially baseball. I've had players that were having problems hitting the ball. They might have been fouling off alot of balls or hitting them in play but not solid. Many times this was because their heads were 'tilted'.

We walk around everyday, all day, & do most everything with our head straight on top of our shoulders & our eyes level. When I got those players to position their heads level with level eyes, their hitting improved immediately both in frequency of hit & solidity of contact & with confidence came more power.

Try doing something like preparing a salad with your eyes tilted or even just walk around the house with your eyes tilted. It is not conducive to success. Most snooker players play with level eyes(for accuracy) because their more square snooker stance makes it easier to keep their eyes level.
I naturally gravited to a snooker like stance without any instruction. I believe I did so because it is more natural, at least to me.

Please understand, I know you know to what I am referring & this is more intended for anyone that may be having this type of problem than directed to you.

Again, Happy Thanksgiving & Stay Well,

JoeyA
11-22-2012, 09:03 AM
I don't know the answer to your question.

I do know that each of us has a "perfect aim" position and often, our dominant eye may be in a different location from what others use.

It wasn't long ago that the experts were saying that the dominant eye theory in pool is unimportant and all that you have to do is center your eyes over the shot line and cue.

As Stan Shuffett and Gene Albrecht have discovered, eye position matters GREATLY!

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

dr_dave
11-22-2012, 11:31 AM
It wasn't long ago that the experts were saying that the dominant eye theory in pool is unimportant and all that you have to do is center your eyes over the shot line and cue.

As Stan Shuffett and Gene Albrecht have discovered, eye position matters GREATLY!Many people (including some "experts") have and still do claim that it doesn't matter which eye is "dominant" (according to the standard generally accepted definition of ocular "dominance"). However, most people (especially "experts") have always known that how and where you align your eyes is extremely important in pool (regardless of which eye might be "dominant" or not).

In fact, visually alignment is probably the single most important of all pool "fundamentals."

For people who want to learn more about this topic, additional info along with supporting resources can be found here:
dominant eye (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/eyes.html#dominant)
sighting resource page (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/eyes.html#sighting)
vision center resource page (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/eyes.html#vision_center)

Regards and Happy Thanksgiving,
Dave

dr_dave
11-22-2012, 11:50 AM
As Stan Shuffett and Gene Albrecht have discovered, eye position matters GREATLY!Stan and Gene certainly didn't "discover" the importance of eye position, but they most definitely have helped a great deal in making people more aware of how important it is to have a purposeful pre-shot routine (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/pre-shot_routine.html) to help ensure accurate and consistent alignment.

Regards,
Dave

JoeyA
11-22-2012, 11:55 AM
Stan and Gene certainly didn't "discover" the importance of eye position, but they most definitely have helped a great deal in making people more aware of how important it is to have a purposeful pre-shot routine (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/pre-shot_routine.html) to help ensure accurate and consistent alignment.

Regards,
Dave

Who was it that discovered the importance of eye position?

pdcue
11-22-2012, 12:16 PM
Who was it that discovered the importance of eye position?

Mingaud??

Seriously - pool players have known about eye position for decades,
and likely decades brfore Stan or Gene were born.

With me - directly over the shaft is critical.
But, I think there is a good chance that having your eye(s) in the same
place every time might just be more important than where they are.

Dale

dr_dave
11-22-2012, 12:48 PM
Stan and Gene certainly didn't "discover" the importance of eye position, but they most definitely have helped a great deal in making people more aware of how important it is to have a purposeful pre-shot routine (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/pre-shot_routine.html) to help ensure accurate and consistent alignment.Who was it that discovered the importance of eye position?This isn't the sort of thing somebody "discovers." I'm sure good instructors and players many hundreds of years ago were just as aware of the importance of visual alignment as many are today.

Regardless, I am glad that Gene, Stan, and others stress the importance of this critical fundamental. FYI, Mike Page had many online videos out dealing with aiming and the importance of sighting many years before Stan and Gene came on the scene. However, that doesn't mean Mike "discovered" it either. For those who are interested, Mike's videos, along with additional supporting resources, are available here:
sighting resource page (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/eyes.html#sighting)

Regards,
Dave

JoeyA
11-22-2012, 03:41 PM
Stan and Gene certainly didn't "discover" the importance of eye position, but they most definitely have helped a great deal in making people more aware of how important it is to have a purposeful pre-shot routine (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/pre-shot_routine.html) to help ensure accurate and consistent alignment.

Regards,
Dave

Gene Albrecht seemed to be the only instructor talking, writing and publishing about the importance of the dominant eye position while aiming.

Maybe I've missed it but I've never seen any author or publisher write anything about the importance of the dominant eye position for certain shots prior to Gene Albrecht.

I know you've collected a lot of good material from various sources but I think Gene may be the first one to discuss and teach about the importance of the position of the dominant eye for various shots.

Maybe I give Gene Albecht the main credit for teaching people about the importance of the dominant eye because he has been able to reach so many of the interested students and the fact that he teaches pool players almost daily, about that importance or maybe it's because Gene was the first one to teach that the dominant eye should be in a certain position for each shot.

Regardless, Perfect Aim (www.perfectaimbilliards.com) is something that Gene teaches and teaches well. I know many people have altered the way they look at shots based upon what Gene teaches and the results have been astounding. I know Gene takes phone calls at 715.563.8712 so maybe he could tell you how he came to know about the importance of keeping the dominant eye in certain locations for different shots. But on the other hand, maybe he enjoys teaching that one-on-one with his many students. No matter, it's all good, Gene's out there where the rubber meets the road, two men and a van. :yeah:

In addition to that, Gene keeps a chronical of his travels making a living playing and teaching pool ON THE ROAD which you can read about by clicking here. (http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=272705)

KMRUNOUT
11-22-2012, 04:17 PM
If someone hasn't said it already, I strongly recommend calling Gene Albrecht. His whole perfect aim system is all about this topic. He offers a free phone lesson that is *very* helpful for this exact purpose. He is good about returning pm's. I think his az name is genomachino.

Good luck!

KMRUNOUT

peteypooldude
11-22-2012, 04:28 PM
Gene Albrecht seemed to be the only instructor talking, writing and publishing about the importance of the dominant eye position while aiming.

Maybe I've missed it but I've never seen any author or publisher write anything about the importance of the dominant eye position for certain shots prior to Gene Albrecht.

I know you've collected a lot of good material from various sources but I think Gene may be the first one to discuss and teach about the importance of the position of the dominant eye for various shots.

Maybe I give Gene Albecht the main credit for teaching people about the importance of the dominant eye because he has been able to reach so many of the interested students and the fact that he teaches pool players almost daily, about that importance or maybe it's because Gene was the first one to teach that the dominant eye should be in a certain position for each shot.

Regardless, Perfect Aim (www.perfectaimbilliards.com) is something that Gene teaches and teaches well. I know many people have altered the way they look at shots based upon what Gene teaches and the results have been astounding. I know Gene takes phone calls at 715.563.8712 so maybe he could tell you how he came to know about the importance of keeping the dominant eye in certain locations for different shots. But on the other hand, maybe he enjoys teaching that one-on-one with his many students. No matter, it's all good, Gene's out there where the rubber meets the road, two men and a van. :yeah:

In addition to that, Gene keeps a chronical of his travels making a living playing and teaching pool ON THE ROAD which you can read about by clicking here. (http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=272705)


I believe Gene told me that he was driving down the road one day and had an aha moment

dr_dave
11-23-2012, 06:09 AM
Gene Albrecht seemed to be the only instructor talking, writing and publishing about the importance of the dominant eye position while aiming.

Maybe I've missed it but I've never seen any author or publisher write anything about the importance of the dominant eye position for certain shots prior to Gene Albrecht.
Agreed. Many people teach and write about the importance of having one's personal vision center (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/eyes.html#vision_center) in the right place, but Gene seems to place an emphasis on ocular dominance. He also seems to imply that the dominant eye (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/eyes.html#dominant) should be placed differently for different shots. This is definitely different from what most instructors teach.

Regards,
Dave

JoeW
11-23-2012, 08:07 AM
Here is an interesting tidbit. I have played with the cue centered on my eyes for several years. After researching and studying the idea for a year or so I concluded that my brain has learned to compensate for my right dominant eye throughout life. There are times (long thin cut shots) when I use my right (dominant eye) over the cue but 90 -95 percent of the time I have the cue centered.

My vision was 20/40 in my left eye and 20/20 in my right eye. It was about 20/30 and 20/20 when wearing glasses. Last year I had cataract surgery on both eyes. My vision was corrected to 20/20 in both eyes and I no longer have to wear glasses. However, I have a convergence problem: At a distance I see four tail lights on a car rather than two. The optometrist prescribed a pair of glasses for driving that correct the convergence problem. So I wear glasses when driving but that is all.

It took about six months for my eyes to adjust after surgery and now I am pretty much back to playing as before: Pretty much because I had eye lid surgery two weeks ago to repair drooping eye lids and my eye lids are still swollen.

I tried to adjust my sight picture based on my new tri focal inter ocular lens with 20/20 vision in both eyes and slight right eye dominance. I found that after a month of trying to adjust I still play best with the cue centered on my chin. I conclude that for most shots a centered cue is best for me.

I conclude, as before, that your brain long ago learned to compensate for eye dominance in your everyday life. Playing pool is for the most part a three dimensional game when seen from above the table and along two or more lines of travel for the cue ball and the object ball. The brain has a preferred way to adjust for the disparities in your eyes and compensates as needed.

When extreme accuracy is needed over long distances the brain compensates by using one eye to line up three objects over a long distance. Try it with two small objects on your kitchen table and some small object outside your kitchen window and you will see that you “prefer” using one eye (20 feet is about where infinity begins for the normal human eye). Under these circumstances all perspective is lost for the enhanced accuracy. I think the same concepts apply when playing pool. Most of the times you need three dimensional accuracy using your brain’s usual processes to compensate for a dominant eye. Occasionally, when you are willing to give up three dimensional planning for accuracy then one eyed sighting is needed.

I think that people have a “normal” compensation for eye dominance. This can be determined by pointing at a door knob that is six feet away. Just point at it with your arm extended. Now look at where the tip of your index finger is relative to your eyes and you may find that the fingertip is located closer to one eye than the other. Some people compensate with their finger placement, some people compensate with the attention they pay to each eye. I would think this can change over time depending upon the person and their individual changes in vision. Hence Dr. Dave’s visual alignment procedures are useful.

Ratta
11-23-2012, 08:53 AM
You have to see * a straight line*. And then you have to place *somehow* your cue on this line.

http://www.sightrightuk.com/snookeraid.htm

Very old principle-extremly simple system- imo still the best. Til now i just use this *system* (if you may call it a system) or other *oldschooled* things.
i m using this since middle/end of 80 s. Shown by a snooker guy in London.
And til now successful.


lg
Ingo

FranCrimi
11-23-2012, 09:11 AM
I find it confusing how some can say that dominant eye doesn't matter ---- It's more important for the player to find their "vision center."

What are the statistics of players' vision centers? How are they sighting their cues after they find their vision center? What players use their recessive eye after they have found their vision center and how does that compare in numbers with other players?

It's simple common sense: Gather the stats and report back before you start theorizing that dominant eye isn't significant. Aren't you just reinventing the wheel by saying forget dominant eye, just find your vision center, yet the end result is cue placement somewhere under the dominant eye? Where are your stats showing otherwise?

I've got a better test for you: Determine how severely dominant the eye is and that will help you tremendously. The more severe the eye dominance, (the farther out of the circle the object jumps with the simple eye dominance test), the more significant the dominant eye will be in the aiming process for that player.

If you can't show concrete evidence of players shooting with their cue under their recessive eye who don't have an eye pathology, then I think it's time that you all accepted the role of the dominant eye in shooting pool.

I've already proven the significance of the dominant eye in the aiming process in studying the hundreds of students that I've worked individually with over the years.

Now it's your turn. Prove it.

dr_dave
11-23-2012, 10:10 AM
I find it confusing how some can say that dominant eye doesn't matter ---- It's more important for the player to find their "vision center."

What are the statistics of players' vision centers? How are they sighting their cues after they find their vision center? What players use their recessive eye after they have found their vision center and how does that compare in numbers with other players?

It's simple common sense: Gather the stats and report back before you start theorizing that dominant eye isn't significant. Aren't you just reinventing the wheel by saying forget dominant eye, just find your vision center, yet the end result is cue placement somewhere under the dominant eye? Where are your stats showing otherwise?

I've got a better test for you: Determine how severely dominant the eye is and that will help you tremendously. The more severe the eye dominance, (the farther out of the circle the object jumps with the simple eye dominance test), the more significant the dominant eye will be in the aiming process for that player.

If you can't show concrete evidence of players shooting with their cue under their recessive eye who don't have an eye pathology, then I think it's time that you all accepted the role of the dominant eye in shooting pool.

I've already proven the significance of the dominant eye in the aiming process in studying the hundreds of students that I've worked individually with over the years.

Now it's your turn. Prove it.Fran,

I'm not sure this post was directed at me or not, but I'll respond anyway.

I think a careful scientific study on this topic would be very interesting, but all we seem to have at this point is "anecdotal evidence."

I tend to believe that ocular dominance does not necessary directly relate to which head position results in the best binocular-vision perception of the desired line of aim (and center-ball tip alignment) at a pool table.

I have certainly seen many players who center the cue between their eyes, regardless of which eye might be "dominant" or not. There are also many players who position the cue somewhere between their eyes, but not exactly centered. Some players (but I think few) position the cue directly beneath one eye. To me, what is important is determining the head position that works best for each individual, regardless of their "ocular dominance" designation (based on one of the standard, non-pool tests). I use the phrase "vision center" to refer to the ideal head position for accurate 3-D perception at the pool table. In my opinion, it doesn't necessarily help somebody to know which eye might be dominant or not (using one of the standard tests). What is important is having the person find their personal vision center.

Regardless, like you, I think it would be very interesting to know how vision center positions correlate with ocular dominance, if there is such a correlation. Although, I still think it would still be important for every individual to identify their ideal vision center position based on an outcome-based procedure (e.g., a vision center drill (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/eyes.html#vision_center)) rather than through an ocular-dominance test that really has little to do with aligning a cue and aiming a shot at a pool table, IMO.

If you haven't seen Bob Fansher's article on this topic, check it out. Here it is:
"Dominant Myth?" by Bob Fancher (http://www.azbilliards.com/poolshrink/column9.cfm)
You might not agree with it, but it is still an interesting read.

Also, check out the following articles I wrote for Billiards Digest dealing with visual alignment and sighting:
“Aim, Align, Sight - Part II: Visual Alignment (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2011/july11.pdf)” (BD, July, 2011).
“Aim, Align, Sight - Part III: Sighting (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2011/aug11.pdf)” (BD, August, 2011).
You and others might find them interesting.

Respectfully,
Dave

JoeW
11-23-2012, 10:15 AM
A couple of references that might be of interest.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14998366?dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11369037?dopt=Abstract

Apparently eye dominance can (and does?) change based on horizontal angle.

Might want to think about that as you move across the field. On the other hand you could let your brain compensate as it has learned to do.

I think we have different visual needs depending on conditions when playing pool. A single point of reference is, in my opinion, better. For some the cue placement under or near one eye is better, for others, not so much.

Depends on one's needs.

Woof Biscuit
11-23-2012, 10:23 AM
I am legally blind in my left eye so there is no question about eye dominance. However, I line up with the cue under my dominant eye and have the cue touch the right side of my chin every now and again. I think this is a good way to make sure you are lined up correctly. Just make sure you are touching the exact same spot every time. This is what archers do when releasing an arrow. They are touching the side of their face at a particular spot every time. Hope this helps.

JoeW
11-23-2012, 10:26 AM
You have to see * a straight line*. And then you have to place *somehow* your cue on this line.

http://www.sightrightuk.com/snookeraid.htm

Very old principle-extremly simple system- imo still the best. Til now i just use this *system* (if you may call it a system) or other *oldschooled* things.
i m using this since middle/end of 80 s. Shown by a snooker guy in London.
And til now successful.


lg
Ingo

That is a neat idea and shows very quickly where your head should be. Thanks, I'll try it tonight. BTW, there is a Youtube video.

JoeW
11-23-2012, 10:32 AM
I find it confusing how some can say that dominant eye doesn't matter ---- It's more important for the player to find their "vision center."

What are the statistics of players' vision centers? How are they sighting their cues after they find their vision center? What players use their recessive eye after they have found their vision center and how does that compare in numbers with other players?

It's simple common sense: Gather the stats and report back before you start theorizing that dominant eye isn't significant. Aren't you just reinventing the wheel by saying forget dominant eye, just find your vision center, yet the end result is cue placement somewhere under the dominant eye? Where are your stats showing otherwise?

I've got a better test for you: Determine how severely dominant the eye is and that will help you tremendously. The more severe the eye dominance, (the farther out of the circle the object jumps with the simple eye dominance test), the more significant the dominant eye will be in the aiming process for that player.

If you can't show concrete evidence of players shooting with their cue under their recessive eye who don't have an eye pathology, then I think it's time that you all accepted the role of the dominant eye in shooting pool.

I've already proven the significance of the dominant eye in the aiming process in studying the hundreds of students that I've worked individually with over the years.

Now it's your turn. Prove it.

And that would be published where ?

Seems the onus is on you as the literature runs counter to common sense, especially as dominance in the horizontal field changes from situation to situation with as little as a 15 degree shift.

dr_dave
11-23-2012, 10:36 AM
I am legally blind in my left eye so there is no question about eye dominance. However, I line up with the cue under my dominant eye and have the cue touch the right side of my chin every now and again. I think this is a good way to make sure you are lined up correctly. Just make sure you are touching the exact same spot every time. This is what archers do when releasing an arrow. They are touching the side of their face at a particular spot every time. Hope this helps.I think this is the one case where there is no doubt about a person's vision center position. I have seen several mono-vision people who have played quite well. Depth perception is more difficult without binocular vision, but you have the advantage of not potentially being confused by the two different images two eyes would present to the brain. You see only one line, one CB, and one cue. In some ways, that's an advantage over those of us with vision in two eyes who see two of everything.

Regards,
Dave

JoeyA
11-23-2012, 10:44 AM
You have to see * a straight line*. And then you have to place *somehow* your cue on this line.

http://www.sightrightuk.com/snookeraid.htm

Very old principle-extremly simple system- imo still the best. Til now i just use this *system* (if you may call it a system) or other *oldschooled* things.
i m using this since middle/end of 80 s. Shown by a snooker guy in London.
And til now successful.


lg
Ingo

I wonder if any American pool players have ever used this "device"/template?

dr_dave
11-23-2012, 10:46 AM
That is a neat idea and shows very quickly where your head should be. Thanks, I'll try it tonight. BTW, there is a Youtube video.If people want to check it out, here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNLGgfrNavg

That is a neat idea and very easy to try on your own with a couple of pieces of paper.

Dave

dr_dave
11-23-2012, 10:53 AM
I wonder if any American pool players have ever used this "device"/template?Check out the quotes from Neil and JoeW on the vision center resource page (billiards.colostate.edu/threads/eyes.html#sighting). Their proposed methods basically work the same way as the SightRight device; although, I like the simplicity of the SightRight approach.

Here's Neil's quote:
Take an extra shaft and lay it on the table pointing away from you. Get down in your stance with your cue with your bridge hand at the end of the spare shaft. Place your cue over the shaft. When you see equal parts of the shaft on each side of your cue, you then know you are seeing a straight line. That is where your head should be.

Regards,
Dave

Woof Biscuit
11-23-2012, 11:07 AM
I think this is the one case where there is no doubt about a person's vision center position. I have seen several mono-vision people who have played quite well. Depth perception is more difficult without binocular vision, but you have the advantage of not potentially being confused by the two different images two eyes would present to the brain. You see only one line, one CB, and one cue. In some ways, that's an advantage over those of us with vision in two eyes who see two of everything.

Regards,
Dave

Thanks, Dave. That's very interesting. I have amblyopia. My brain ignores my left eye; so it's like I'm always wearing an eye patch. I'm a weak A player with infrequent moments of greatness! :D After reading all of the threads out there about eye alignment, dominant eye, etc., I often wondered if it was an advantage to only use one eye. It seems like it is. One huge disadvantage is that my eye gets tired after a couple hours of play. I sometimes get a twitch in my eyelid and headaches. I had rather have everyone else's problem. The Lord giveth and he taketh away. :o

FranCrimi
11-23-2012, 11:24 AM
Fran,

I'm not sure this post was directed at me or not, but I'll respond anyway.

I think a careful scientific study on this topic would be very interesting, but all we seem to have at this point is "anecdotal evidence."

I tend to believe that ocular dominance does not necessary directly relate to which head position results in the best binocular-vision perception of the desired line of aim (and center-ball tip alignment) at a pool table.

I have certainly seen many players who center the cue between their eyes, regardless of which eye might be "dominant" or not. There are also many players who position the cue somewhere between their eyes, but not exactly centered. Some players (but I think few) position the cue directly beneath one eye. To me, what is important is determining the head position that works best for each individual, regardless of their "ocular dominance" designation (based on one of the standard, non-pool tests). I use the phrase "vision center" to refer to the ideal head position for accurate 3-D perception at the pool table. In my opinion, it doesn't necessarily help somebody to know which eye might be dominant or not (using one of the standard tests). What is important is having the person find their personal vision center.

Regardless, like you, I think it would be very interesting to know how vision center positions correlate with ocular dominance, if there is such a correlation. Although, I still think it would still be important for every individual to identify their ideal vision center position based on an outcome-based procedure (e.g., a vision center drill (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/eyes.html#vision_center)) rather than through an ocular-dominance test that really has little to do with aligning a cue and aiming a shot at a pool table, IMO.

If you haven't seen Bob Fansher's article on this topic, check it out. Here it is:
"Dominant Myth?" by Bob Fancher (http://www.azbilliards.com/poolshrink/column9.cfm)
You might not agree with it, but it is still an interesting read.

Also, check out the following articles I wrote for Billiards Digest dealing with visual alignment and sighting:
“Aim, Align, Sight - Part II: Visual Alignment (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2011/july11.pdf)” (BD, July, 2011).
“Aim, Align, Sight - Part III: Sighting (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2011/aug11.pdf)” (BD, August, 2011).
You and others might find them interesting.

Respectfully,
Dave

Dave, we are basically in agreement here. However, our hypotheses concerning eye dominance in absence of a formal study on pool players may be different.

As I have written many times on this and other forums, my hypothesis is based on my interactions with hundreds of individual players, mostly students who I've tested for dominant eye, and observed their shooting successes and failures. I should have written it all down and treated it as a study, but I wasn't thinking along those lines during all of those encounters. What I am referring to is how a player is aligned when they are down on their shot --- just to make it clear. I'm not referring to how they see while they are standing or approaching their shot.

I think it goes without saying that everyone should find the optimal place to place their cue. I'm confident in the correlation that I have found, although I never rule out the possibility of the existence of the odd exception in the absence of a pathology.

But to dismiss the role of the dominant eye without evidence, and I'm not sure that you are one of those who do it, is IMO, irresponsible to our sport.

Siz
11-23-2012, 11:29 AM
You have to see * a straight line*. And then you have to place *somehow* your cue on this line.

http://www.sightrightuk.com/snookeraid.htm

lg
Ingo

I am not sure that this device works as described if you have a significantly dominant eye (ie if your vision center is not pretty close to your nose)

Siz
11-23-2012, 11:33 AM
...
If you want bench marks Geno is your man.... He showed me several check points to the single one I use and showed him.... If I can get to a table over the weekend with a camera I can show you my trick but the video will be shorter than the time it will take for me to try and describe it in words.......

I would be interested to see that Chris - and I agree that one way or another Gene is making a huge contribution in this area.

Mikjary
11-23-2012, 11:35 AM
I started this thread with the idea that somebody out there may have a better way to kep my dominant eye in charge. It seems a percentage of players feel that the dominant eye is neither an issue of concern or can be assimilated into a vision center alignment routine.

I played for many years without a clue of eye dominance. I played great or mediocre. Many times both in the same session. After examining and finding my dominanat eye, my consistency improved dramatically. My problem has become my brain's ability to "work around" my eye dominance and perform tasks with an adjusted vision center.

When my non-dominant eye takes over the aiming, I'll usually miss the shot. The shot looks good, but I align incorrectly. With diligence to keep my dominant eye dominant, I run racks. Because of this stark difference in aiming alignments, I feel a dominant eye is an important thing to know about...for me and maybe others. Not all people will need this information. They can align normally without a problem. They won't also, understand all the concern about something that is so easy to accomplish for them. For instance, I teach different sports and can do things easily, whereas some of my students struggle. I wonder why they can't do certain movements, but know each one of us is different.

So, such a trivial concept is uinimaginable to you, but to me it is the entire game. Any ideas that have worked for you to keep your dominant eye dominant?

Best,
Mike

chefjeff
11-23-2012, 11:42 AM
I started this thread with the idea that somebody out there may have a better way to kep my dominant eye in charge. It seems a percentage of players feel that the dominant eye is neither an issue of concern or can be assimilated into a vision center alignment routine.

I played for many years without a clue of eye dominance. I played great or mediocre. Many times both in the same session. After examining and finding my dominanat eye, my consistency improved dramatically. My problem has become my brain's ability to "work around" my eye dominance and perform tasks with an adjusted vision center.

When my non-dominant eye takes over the aiming, I'll usually miss the shot. The shot looks good, but I align incorrectly. With diligence to keep my dominant eye dominant, I run racks. Because of this stark difference in aiming alignments, I feel a dominant eye is an important thing to know about...for me and maybe others. Not all people will need this information. They can align normally without a problem. They won't also, understand all the concern about something that is so easy to accomplish for them. For instance, I teach different sports and can do things easily, whereas some of my students struggle. I wonder why they can't do certain movements, but know each one of us is different.

So, such a trivial concept is uinimaginable to you, but to me it is the entire game. Any ideas that have worked for you to keep your dominant eye dominant?

Best,
Mike

As you probably know, I have the exact same issues as you.

Here's another idea I use to help my pool dominate eye stay dominant: I use artificial tear drops because of having had lazik surgery twice. On league days, I put drops only in my pool dominate eye so it is clearer and less irritated than my pool non-dominant eye. My brain seems to like that.

This helps but isn't the "cure" you're looking for, if there is one.

Jeff Livingston

Danny Harriman
11-23-2012, 12:05 PM
This is a subject that I have done some research on, I can only speak for what I have found works for me. I have read books and anaylized this with my own game, we are all built differently but I think one basic idea may be a decent rule of thumb. Unless the player has a lazy eye or other vision problems - one eye will sight better from a closer distance (alignment) the other (which may not be your dominant eye will see better from a distance). This having been said if both eyes are equally strong in each of these areas - a player who on a tavern table who is right handed and right eye dominant will generally line the cue up towards the right side of his or her chin. The same player on a ten foot table will be a bit confused with the depth perception and without knowing it will bring the cue over more towards the center of the chin. Again this is what I have found works for me, there is one shot in particular where I tend to use my non-dominant eye more. You will have to travel to MO to learn more about this shot, be carefull when anaylizing this with your game as it will drive you pretty much crazy. Once yo have a decent concept on what works for you - a huge key to success is quitening the mind, again this is a complicated subject and this is just what I have found to be beneficial for myself. Hope it helps.

Mikjary
11-23-2012, 03:42 PM
As you probably know, I have the exact same issues as you.

Here's another idea I use to help my pool dominate eye stay dominant: I use artificial tear drops because of having had lazik surgery twice. On league days, I put drops only in my pool dominate eye so it is clearer and less irritated than my pool non-dominant eye. My brain seems to like that.

This helps but isn't the "cure" you're looking for, if there is one.

Jeff Livingston

I've found that when I sight each shot, I start to the left of the shot line. I'm right handed, right eye dominant. I come into the shot from left to right. This gives my right eye the shot image first.

If I come from right to left, my left eye picks up the shot and I line up incorrectly. The shot still looks good, but I'm off the line to pocket the ball. I steer and swoop and sometimes compensate, but it's a pisser, for sure. I stop and immediately look down and see my cue under my left eye.

One answer to stop my left eye from getting in on the aiming may be to put the cue completely under my right eye. There will be little doubt then about its location. This is a radical change and probably a last resort approach. Who knows if it would even work? 249339 249340249341249342

Best,
Mike

Mikjary
11-23-2012, 03:59 PM
This is a subject that I have done some research on, I can only speak for what I have found works for me. I have read books and anaylized this with my own game, we are all built differently but I think one basic idea may be a decent rule of thumb. Unless the player has a lazy eye or other vision problems - one eye will sight better from a closer distance (alignment) the other (which may not be your dominant eye will see better from a distance). This having been said if both eyes are equally strong in each of these areas - a player who on a tavern table who is right handed and right eye dominant will generally line the cue up towards the right side of his or her chin. The same player on a ten foot table will be a bit confused with the depth perception and without knowing it will bring the cue over more towards the center of the chin. Again this is what I have found works for me, there is one shot in particular where I tend to use my non-dominant eye more. You will have to travel to MO to learn more about this shot, be carefull when anaylizing this with your game as it will drive you pretty much crazy. Once yo have a decent concept on what works for you - a huge key to success is quitening the mind, again this is a complicated subject and this is just what I have found to be beneficial for myself. Hope it helps.

Danny,

I don't know what category I'm in, but I play at least a ball better on a big table. It may be a concentration thing or maybe the opponents play worse on golf courses, but I do have less trouble with my dominant eye on smaller tables. 249344 Good points. I'll factor them in to my growing equation.

Best,
Mike

The Renfro
11-23-2012, 04:14 PM
Whats your locale Mike if I may ask?

I still travel around the country for work and you seem to suffer from the same things I do with dominance.....

Chris

AtLarge
11-23-2012, 04:58 PM
... But to dismiss the role of the dominant eye without evidence, and I'm not sure that you are one of those who do it, is IMO, irresponsible to our sport.

Vision for most of us is stereoscopic. In finding one's vision center, as Dr. Dave calls it -- and using that position for most pool shots -- one uses the vision from both eyes. So why do you say doing that is "to dismiss the role of the dominant eye"? Isn't it accepting the role of both eyes?

JoeyA
11-23-2012, 05:24 PM
Mike,
How do you know that your non-dominant eye took over the aiming of the shot (besides missing which you alluded to) ?
Thanks,
Joey

Mikjary
11-23-2012, 05:39 PM
Mike,
How do you know that your non-dominant eye took over the aiming of the shot (besides missing which you alluded to) ?
Thanks,
Joey

I freeze and I look to see if the cue is under my dominant eye. I try to concentrate on every shot to keep my right eye over the cue, but when you're running out you get in a frenzy! You start motoring around the table and think you're lined up right and sh249350t!

I call it my schizo eye. You never know when it's gonna pop up and ruin my run...next shot, next rack, or next session. 249351

Best,
Mike

The Renfro
11-23-2012, 05:43 PM
Freeze and look down is a bad plan if you have the issues I suspect.... You need a PSR, check system, that is dynamic and not static...... Cue orientation will vary by distance to the OB........

Mikjary
11-23-2012, 06:05 PM
Freeze and look down is a bad plan if you have the issues I suspect.... You need a PSR, check system, that is dynamic and not static...... Cue orientation will vary by distance to the OB........

The PSR helps a little. I have to stop halfway through it and double check my head alignment. The shot looks good with either eye. The problem is my body lines up every time for a right eye alignment even though my left will creep into the shot.

Some days it's so out of control, I can look at the shot with my left eye, close my left eye and my brain still tries to put my left eye over the shot when I get down! It's a tenacious PITA!

Another part of the problem may be that I've trained myself to do different things with both sides of my body. I guess my mind may be trying to implement this into my pool game. 249354

Best,
Mike

8onthebreak
11-23-2012, 10:37 PM
I suffer from this eye thing. I shoot right handed, and am left eye dominant. I suffer because I've always shot guns my entire life thru my RIGHT eye, before I knew I was left eye dominant.

I now try to make sure my left eye is over the cue...and you will find me routinely closing my right eye for a second during a stroke just to verify alignment, if my head is out of position, and my brain is grabbing my right eye...I can tell immediately when I close my right eye...that I'm gonna miss. I simply re-align, using only my D eye, open both eyes, and fire it in.

I've found no real way of avoiding my brain from gravitating to my right eye, I've only found ways to identify and correct quickly before it costs me a match. Some nights I don't have any problems, other nights, I just can't get away from it.

chefjeff
11-24-2012, 06:46 AM
The PSR helps a little. I have to stop halfway through it and double check my head alignment. The shot looks good with either eye. The problem is my body lines up every time for a right eye alignment even though my left will creep into the shot.

Some days it's so out of control, I can look at the shot with my left eye, close my left eye and my brain still tries to put my left eye over the shot when I get down! It's a tenacious PITA!

Another part of the problem may be that I've trained myself to do different things with both sides of my body. I guess my mind may be trying to implement this into my pool game. 249354

Best,
Mike

Mike, I think I might help you there, as I've come up with a process to enter my stance that deals with this....

First I sight from above, standing behind the shot and do all that stuff while standing (coming in from the proper side, seeing aiming point, etc.)

Second I place my right heel (I'm right handed), under where the cue butt will be, at the proper angle.

Third I place my left foot into position. (I'm still standing upright and still clearly "seeing" the aiming point on the OB)

Here's the part I've recently changed....Fourth, I then BEND MY KNEES so my body goes straight down. By doing this, I reduce the chances greatly of wobbling and losing the line.

Fifth, I then bend over to put my upper body into position. It will be correct because everything else is correct up until then. There is almost no chance of my moving sideways at this point.

I don't know if that'll work for you, but it might!

Jeff Livingston

Mikjary
11-24-2012, 06:50 AM
I suffer from this eye thing. I shoot right handed, and am left eye dominant. I suffer because I've always shot guns my entire life thru my RIGHT eye, before I knew I was left eye dominant.

I now try to make sure my left eye is over the cue...and you will find me routinely closing my right eye for a second during a stroke just to verify alignment, if my head is out of position, and my brain is grabbing my right eye...I can tell immediately when I close my right eye...that I'm gonna miss. I simply re-align, using only my D eye, open both eyes, and fire it in.

I've found no real way of avoiding my brain from gravitating to my right eye, I've only found ways to identify and correct quickly before it costs me a match. Some nights I don't have any problems, other nights, I just can't get away from it.

What ways did you find to identify when your right eye is taking over? The only clue I've found that the wrong eye is in the shot is that I see a larger view of the table.

What I mean is that when I'm aiming with my dominant eye, I focus and see mainly the object ball. Kind of like tunnel vision. The view from my non-D eye is blocked out. If it comes into the shot, I see what my D eye is seeing in additon to the non-D eye for a larger blended picture.

It is subtle and hard to notice this when you are concentrating on the shot. I close my left eye occasionally to remind myself not to help with the shot. The blinking is a reminder for me to keep my right eye forward and to not turn my head.

I've also tried an eye patch, sunglasses with one lens out, and shooting left handed. The only other possible thing I could do is shoot with an eye patch for an extended period of time to reinforce my D eye. 249417 Yo ho ho!

Best,
Mike

FranCrimi
11-24-2012, 06:52 AM
Vision for most of us is stereoscopic. In finding one's vision center, as Dr. Dave calls it -- and using that position for most pool shots -- one uses the vision from both eyes. So why do you say doing that is "to dismiss the role of the dominant eye"? Isn't it accepting the role of both eyes?

I never suggested aiming or shooting with one eye closed. That would probably be the only way to avoid stereoscopic viewing. After going through the process of finding your vision center, your cue will ultimately wind up placed under or near your dominant eye, depending on how strong the eye dominance is.

My issue is with those who say it doesn't matter what your dominant eye is as long as you just find your 'vision center.'

If that's true, then there must be some statistics that show players shooting with the cue under their recessive eye. I haven't found any yet. If and when one such player is revealed I would like to interview them regarding their vision and observe them playing.

chefjeff
11-24-2012, 06:54 AM
I suffer from this eye thing. I shoot right handed, and am left eye dominant. I suffer because I've always shot guns my entire life thru my RIGHT eye, before I knew I was left eye dominant.

I now try to make sure my left eye is over the cue...and you will find me routinely closing my right eye for a second during a stroke just to verify alignment, if my head is out of position, and my brain is grabbing my right eye...I can tell immediately when I close my right eye...that I'm gonna miss. I simply re-align, using only my D eye, open both eyes, and fire it in.

I've found no real way of avoiding my brain from gravitating to my right eye, I've only found ways to identify and correct quickly before it costs me a match. Some nights I don't have any problems, other nights, I just can't get away from it.

Maybe you and Mike and I are going about this dominant eye thing in the wrong way.

Maybe our brains are telling us to stop it and allow it to use both eyes, not a dominant one? Maybe instead of trying to force one eye to dominate, we would be better off forcing---or is "allowing" a better word?--allowing our brains to use both eyes as it wishes.

So, maybe forcing our brains to use both eyes would be a better technique in the long run re consistency?

ENOUGH for me for a while...my mind has to integrate all of this for few days. Time Out for me.

Jeff Livingston

JoeW
11-24-2012, 08:14 AM
The research cited in post 64 indicates that eye dominance can and does change as one moves into a shot from across the horizontal field. When you move into the shot making position from the left or from the right your eye dominance shifts as you look at the sighting point.

The obvious solution to this shift in dominance is to walk into the shot from behind. While you may be looking at the shot from the side as you walk to it, you probably should not begin to sight the shot until you are in position and take a step back. This will place you on the shot line and will give your eyes and their dominance preferences time to adjust to the visual field directly in front of you. This type of recommendation has been around for a long time and is now reinforced by the research literature.

Whether you choose to place the cue under the dominant eye or allow the brain to compensate for the dominant eye is another choice. The research literature seems to imply that shift in dominance in the lateral and contra lateral field is not an invariant process across people: Some people experience more of a shift than others. If you have noted this shift in dominance and or a change in dominance then it is probably more important for you to step back when on the shot line and look directly in front of you prior to sighting.

BTW I had not seen these research findings until Fran brought up the problem and would suggest that further research on this topic would yield even stronger evidence as we are dealing with a physiological process offset by mental preferences. Pool instructors should seriously review this literature and it probably should be a standard recommendation based on solid research findings. While some people may not have a lateral shift in dominance the recommendation to take a step back allows one to gain a better perspective.

I will start a new thread to highlight these findings.

Ratta
11-24-2012, 09:28 AM
I wonder if any American pool players have ever used this "device"/template?

Hi Joey,
hope you re doin good pal :)

To be honest- if someone is teaching, instructing etc. and this on a *bit* higher level, then he should always try to earn as much knowledge as possible. I learnt this method about 20 years ago from a professional snooker player in London. As soon as i saw this, i knew immediatley what a great thing this is.

To work on this *thing* with a knowledged guy is also very helpful. If you then discover an issue with your alignment, the brutal work begins :)

have a smooth stroke,
Ingo

One Pocket John
11-24-2012, 10:18 AM
The research cited in post 64 indicates that eye dominance can and does change as one moves into a shot from across the horizontal field. When you move into the shot making position from the left or from the right your eye dominance shifts as you look at the sighting point.

The obvious solution to this shift in dominance is to walk into the shot from behind. While you may be looking at the shot from the side as you walk to it, you probably should not begin to sight the shot until you are in position and take a step back. This will place you on the shot line and will give your eyes and their dominance preferences time to adjust to the visual field directly in front of you. This type of recommendation has been around for a long time and is now reinforced by the research literature.

Whether you choose to place the cue under the dominant eye or allow the brain to compensate for the dominant eye is another choice. The research literature seems to imply that shift in dominance in the lateral and contra lateral field is not an invariant process across people: Some people experience more of a shift than others. If you have noted this shift in dominance and or a change in dominance then it is probably more important for you to step back when on the shot line and look directly in front of you prior to sighting.

BTW I had not seen these research findings until Fran brought up the problem and would suggest that further research on this topic would yield even stronger evidence as we are dealing with a physiological process offset by mental preferences. Pool instructors should seriously review this literature and it probably should be a standard recommendation based on solid research findings. While some people may not have a lateral shift in dominance the recommendation to take a step back allows one to gain a better perspective.

I will start a new thread to highlight these findings.


Looking forward to the new thread.

Thanks

John

Mikjary
11-24-2012, 10:33 AM
Standing behind the shot and letting my brain choose the dominant eye is the problem. I shoot using both eyes, but my body aligns for right eye dominance.

Best,
Mike

Mikjary
11-26-2012, 11:19 AM
I find that if I place my dominant eye forward of my other eye, it maintains dominance. If I stand square behind the shot, either eye may start to aim the shot. I turn my head almost as if I'm looking over my shoulder behind me to get my correct eye to see the shot. Any other suggestions to keep my D eye dominant?

I would be willing to bet there are many other players with this problem that don't know they have it. They play very inconsistently and miss easy shots for no apparent reason. They blame their stroke, their stance, or their grip, when all along it's their eyes.

Best,
Mike

Pay Up Sucker
11-26-2012, 11:26 AM
Play every shot as an Independent/individual shot and try not to get into a rhythm going from shot to shot and letting your subconscious take over? lol :D

ENGLISH!
11-26-2012, 11:30 AM
I would be willing to bet there are many other players with this problem that don't know they have it. They play very inconsistently and miss easy shots for no apparent reason. They blame their stroke, their stance, their grip, when all along it's their eyes.

Best,
Mike

Hi Mike,

I never blame a mis on anything other than my bad eye. Why would eye?:wink:

In all seriousness, You may have enlightened me. In thinking back, I think that a prominent amount of my misses may have been on shots where I really have to reach with my bridge hand & may actually be bringing my left non-dominant eye closer & my right dominant eye farther back. I'll have to pay atttention to that.

Thanks & Best Regards,

ENGLISH!
11-26-2012, 11:45 AM
Mike,

I posted too quickly. I just did the dominant eye test & turned my head for both far & near objects & my dominant eye is what keeps the target in the circle.

However, if you simply turn your head the object leaves the circle. But... I can turn my head & keep the target in the circle by my head sliding. This is done by turning my head, to the right, while sliding it to the left, my non-dominant eye side. However, if I turn my head far enough with my dominant eye closed then the target comes into the circle, seeing it with my non-dominant left eye.

Makes sense, at least to me.

Regards,

AtLarge
11-26-2012, 01:49 PM
... However, if I turn my head far enough with my dominant eye closed then the target comes into the circle, seeing it with my non-dominant left eye. ...

If you turn your head far enough, regardless of whether the dominant eye is open or closed, you will see what you describe -- because your nose is blocking the dominant eye's vision!