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swisslife77
11-21-2012, 06:17 AM
To all of you , fellow players,
here a subject that I feel weak in!

Any of us, I'm sure, is more or less aware of the various systems of aimig to rails for kicking/banking(such like Sid,2 rails parallel lines, 3 rails counting, fixed point for 3 rails...etc etc), but personally I find it hard to remember/use while in a game!!!

Maybe just a lack of experience / specific training, maybe lazyness......but I'm wondering if any of you has developped an "easy shortcut" to use when "in the heat" of a match!

Thanks for your imput!! :grin:

Tramp Steamer
11-21-2012, 06:36 AM
Systems are fine to know, but the one thing that will hold you in good stead will be your mind's eye being able to see the shot. That comes from repetition.
Practice short banks and kicks, long banks and kicks, crossing banks, two and three rail banks, and even four railers. Do it over and over and there will come a time when your intuitive mind will recognize a shot and execute it successfully. :smile:

CreeDo
11-21-2012, 08:53 AM
No 'easy' anything in pool :)

Everything takes practice. Even using systems. I rely on some very simple ones for kicks and banks, but all systems must use a little feel also. You can't get 'feel' without tons of practice.

I would say, stick mostly to one system that you for sure understand. You don't need 3 different ways to make a 1-rail bank shot. You just need to practice one way until you master it.

Focus on 1 rail banks and kicks, before worry about 2 and 3 rails. 1-rail is 10x more common.

336Robin
11-21-2012, 09:01 AM
No 'easy' anything in pool :)

Everything takes practice. Even using systems. I rely on some very simple ones for kicks and banks, but all systems must use a little feel also. You can't get 'feel' without tons of practice.

I would say, stick mostly to one system that you for sure understand. You don't need 3 different ways to make a 1-rail bank shot. You just need to practice one way until you master it.

Focus on 1 rail banks and kicks, before worry about 2 and 3 rails. 1-rail is 10x more common.

I agree CreeDo....I developed my feel for 1 rail banks counting diamond position for all of them. Simply....Find the diamond position for the way it lays.....and know that a 2 to 1 bank is much harder to make than a bank shot long but stroked in hard because of less angle to cope with...... now Passovers are an animal of a different breed but really arent so mysterious when you find out how to break em down.....

Just another lovely day in paradise.......

336Robin :thumbup:

aimisthegameinpool.com
aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com

Bob Jewett
11-21-2012, 09:05 AM
... Any of us, I'm sure, is more or less aware of the various systems of aimig to rails for kicking/banking(such like Sid,2 rails parallel lines, 3 rails counting, fixed point for 3 rails...etc etc), but personally I find it hard to remember/use while in a game!!!

Maybe just a lack of experience / specific training, maybe lazyness......but I'm wondering if any of you has developped an "easy shortcut" to use when "in the heat" of a match! ...
How about practicing? Put a ball on the spot and see how many 3-cushion kicks it takes to make it leaving it in position each shot. The corner-5 will only be a guide -- you will gradually get a feel for the various angles. In the heat of a match you need to rely mostly on experience. You get that either in matches or by practice.

Luther Blissett
11-21-2012, 09:20 AM
The thing which killed my ability to bank was going from English pool (i.e. six foot tables with cushions that don't stick out from the rail very much) to American pool (i.e. nine foot tables with cushions that project out from the rail much more).

I find that the cushion in American pool deflects so much compared to an English table that the return angle is very different, as the ball is striking a point which is effectively further away than you're looking at (a combination of the extra weight of the balls along with the extra projection of the cushion means that in effect the return point is quite deep into the cushion).

Over a year and half after making the switch from English to American pool, I'm still struggling to "feel" the angles with bank shots. :frown:

It's quite disappointing, as this used to be a strong part of my game in English pool.

RShellhouse
11-21-2012, 10:04 AM
How about practicing? .

Oh no...there is no magic?


lol...



R

EasyEJL
11-21-2012, 10:37 AM
a few easy tricks to remember. generally if you aren't hitting too soft or hard, the ball will leave the rail at approximately the same angle as it hits it. so you find the center of the space between the balls (and if the two aren't close to the same distance from the rail you aren't hitting, you have to adjust mentally finding the spot where they do line up (for a kick the cue position gets mentally adjusted, for a bank the object) and then find the center spot. a straight on medium speed hit at that center point will come off at the same angle. And a funny thing about trying to figure the center point, for whatever reason humans have an innate ability to move their hands at the same rate. so if you hold out your arms to where each ball is, and bring them together, you'll be pretty accurate as to center.

And then going even further, there is this messy math/picture

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-scoDhxM1jrc/UK0P6CUwZ6I/AAAAAAAAOiY/cbPU3A0QoGU/s738/Triangle.jpg

if you know the position of the object ball as x,y, and the pocket you want to sink it into is the 0,0 the formula will give you how far in from the pocket you want the ball to hit the rail. Using just diamonds, call the foot right corner the one you are trying to sink the ball in, and the ball is at an x of 5 diamonds and y of 2 diamonds (center of table). Banking off a long side H is 4, (8 for banking the short side to a far corner) so we've got 4*5 = 20 for the top, and 2*4-2= 6 for the bottom. So the aim point is at 20/6, or 3 1/3 diamonds in from the pocket.

fathomblue
11-21-2012, 11:37 AM
I wish your diagram was a bit clearer, with the actual spots on the table being marked, as to where the CB and OB were.

I'm interested in your gypsy math and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Sarcasm aside, could you clear it up with what I described above?

EasyEJL
11-21-2012, 11:44 AM
I wish your diagram was a bit clearer, with the actual spots on the table being marked, as to where the CB and OB were.

I'm interested in your gypsy math and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Sarcasm aside, could you clear it up with what I described above?

sure, i'll try to do a couple examples later today after work, at least one each showing a bank and kick done that way

Bob Jewett
11-21-2012, 11:55 AM
I wish your diagram was a bit clearer, with the actual spots on the table being marked, as to where the CB and OB were.

I'm interested in your gypsy math and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Sarcasm aside, could you clear it up with what I described above?

The geometry is just the mirror principle. For most people it will be easier to reflect the target through the nose of the cushion by measuring off equal distances with their stick. Several top players at the US Open were doing that for kick shots.

ndakotan
11-21-2012, 11:55 AM
I have a barnburner automatic banking/kicking system that is completely intuitive and natural. Frankly, if it doesn't work for you, you should probably give up pool. Just paypal me 3 easy payments of $49.99 and the information will automatically be uploaded to your brain using whispernerve.

No learning or practice required, it will all be in your memory-banks (pun intended).

Disclaimer, you will not feel the effects of the upload or know when it has been done (other than when you start to make the shots of course). Errors in delivery or disconnects in your brain may prevent product from working. I've been selling the product for a while now and it has put a lot more money in my wallet.

Thanks

bbb
11-21-2012, 01:29 PM
I wish your diagram was a bit clearer, with the actual spots on the table being marked, as to where the CB and OB were.

I'm interested in your gypsy math and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Sarcasm aside, could you clear it up with what I described above?

A=dx/x+y
equal triangle system (towards the bottom)
http://www.poolstudent.com/2009/09/09/one-rail-kicking-systems-1/

swisslife77
11-21-2012, 01:44 PM
I have a barnburner automatic banking/kicking system that is completely intuitive and natural. Frankly, if it doesn't work for you, you should probably give up pool. Just paypal me 3 easy payments of $49.99 and the information will automatically be uploaded to your brain using whispernerve.

No learning or practice required, it will all be in your memory-banks (pun intended).

Disclaimer, you will not feel the effects of the upload or know when it has been done (other than when you start to make the shots of course). Errors in delivery or disconnects in your brain may prevent product from working. I've been selling the product for a while now and it has put a lot more money in my wallet.

Thanks

....ahahahahah!!!
I wish was real!!

Beside jokes, I thank you all, but I know a lot of systems, and for 1 and 2 rails I feel quite confident ( like missing 1 or 2 out of 10)
I was just saying that during matches sometimes my confidence fade off ( choking?)
So I wonder if same happen to any of you!!
In reality , kicks specially is not something you often use, unless obliged!
I'm actually try to rely more on rails rather than jump shot, i.e. !!!
But someone says right! Need to put more practice to get used to it!

Well, I'll go practice now! See ya!
;-)

Neil
11-21-2012, 01:49 PM
I wish your diagram was a bit clearer, with the actual spots on the table being marked, as to where the CB and OB were.

I'm interested in your gypsy math and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Sarcasm aside, could you clear it up with what I described above?

For every diamond past one diamond, add 1/3 diamond to the angle. Up to adding one full diamond. Then hit firm.

prad
11-21-2012, 03:56 PM
I think of "systems" as guidelines, IMO there is no perfect system that will teach a player to execute all kinds of kicks / banks 100% all the time. Most players do it by the "feel" and that comes from their previous experiences. A lot of times if you ask a good player how did they make that bank? Most of ‘em will say they saw it going in to pocket before they executed the shot.
Now, a player can use any "system" and utilize it to add more information to their feel of the shot. A "system" can provide a good guideline on what should be expected of a cue ball / object ball
To execute a fair bank or kick shot, a player also should have a pretty good idea of how the cue ball / object ball is going to react, because there are other factors like speed, spin, table cloth etc. that play a major role in these kinds of shots. That's where the "feel" comes to play.

TSW
11-21-2012, 04:27 PM
The best advice I can give for an in-game situation is to make sure you are cognizant of the spin and speed you are using.

On a straight-in shot, your aim is not affected by spin on the vertical axis and by speed. However, both of these variables affect your aim on a kick shot. It's easy to forget about them in the heat of a match.

backplaying
11-21-2012, 05:12 PM
I have a barnburner automatic banking/kicking system that is completely intuitive and natural. Frankly, if it doesn't work for you, you should probably give up pool. Just paypal me 3 easy payments of $49.99 and the information will automatically be uploaded to your brain using whispernerve.

No learning or practice required, it will all be in your memory-banks (pun intended).

Disclaimer, you will not feel the effects of the upload or know when it has been done (other than when you start to make the shots of course). Errors in delivery or disconnects in your brain may prevent product from working. I've been selling the product for a while now and it has put a lot more money in my wallet.

Thanks

I'm afraid I already have a patent on that system. I guess we could chop it to keep me from filing a suit.

backplaying
11-21-2012, 05:14 PM
Systems are fine to know, but the one thing that will hold you in good stead will be your mind's eye being able to see the shot. That comes from repetition.
Practice short banks and kicks, long banks and kicks, crossing banks, two and three rail banks, and even four railers. Do it over and over and there will come a time when your intuitive mind will recognize a shot and execute it successfully. :smile:

I have to agree with everything you stated.

bbb
11-21-2012, 05:55 PM
for the guys that have more than 10,000 hours table time
feel is ok
systems give you a pretty good road map to the spot
if you are offf by a house or 2 use feel
my 2 cents

One Pocket John
11-21-2012, 06:13 PM
To all of you , fellow players,
here a subject that I feel weak in!

Any of us, I'm sure, is more or less aware of the various systems of aimig to rails for kicking/banking(such like Sid,2 rails parallel lines, 3 rails counting, fixed point for 3 rails...etc etc), but personally I find it hard to remember/use while in a game!!!

Maybe just a lack of experience / specific training, maybe lazyness......but I'm wondering if any of you has developped an "easy shortcut" to use when "in the heat" of a match!

Thanks for your imput!! :grin:

Get Jimmy Reids "Almost All I Know" its a great DVD package.

And then practice. :smile:

John

Dunnn51
11-21-2012, 06:53 PM
Systems are fine to know, but the one thing that will hold you in good stead will be your mind's eye being able to see the shot. That comes from repetition.
Practice short banks and kicks, long banks and kicks, crossing banks, two and three rail banks, and even four railers. Do it over and over and there will come a time when your intuitive mind will recognize a shot and execute it successfully. :smile:

ahhhh, That intuitive mind thing ,...............

I'd really like to credit that intuitive mind approach, but what really does it for me is when I botch a straight-in shot and miss by 1/2 a diamond or so. Then it hits 2 rails and almost pockets at the opposite corner,..... that's when the :idea2: comes on,.... goes like this :
Hey dummy! that awlful shot aside,... if you do that on purpose , you can get some really good stop position at point of contact on the table, or did you forget 3 cushions ?? :cool:

EasyEJL
11-21-2012, 06:57 PM
Ok shot 1

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ZjFcb2D8fRI/UK2Fjto3fhI/AAAAAAAAOiw/GahFqnHTI0Q/s800/Shot1.png

shooting at the pocket with the arrow pointed to it, as x=0,y=0. Object ball is at an x of 5, and a y of 2 - 5 diamonds from the pocket horizontally, 2 vertically. using that formula you get a width of 3.33, so you aim the object ball onto the line that hits the 3 1/3 diamonds from the pockets

shot 2

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-yOOSgvKphjo/UK2FjtVN83I/AAAAAAAAOis/YIFc9_lHCTY/s800/shot2.png

same pocket as goal pocket. Object ball is at 2.5 horizontally and 2.5 vertically. Plugged in that gives you 1.8 as the aim spot, so the object ball has to travel on that line.


the math is sound geometry, it took a while of playing with the concepts to get it right.

TSW
11-21-2012, 07:32 PM
Ok shot 1



shooting at the pocket with the arrow pointed to it, as x=0,y=0. Object ball is at an x of 5, and a y of 2 - 5 diamonds from the pocket horizontally, 2 vertically. using that formula you get a width of 3.33, so you aim the object ball onto the line that hits the 3 1/3 diamonds from the pockets

[....]


the math is sound geometry, it took a while of playing with the concepts to get it right.

That's geometry. Pool is physics. You have to account for the compression of the cushion, the roll of the object ball, the speed of the shot, and the humidity of the room, among other things. Balancing all of these factors is where feel comes in.

bbb
11-21-2012, 07:48 PM
That's geometry. Pool is physics. You have to account for the compression of the cushion, the roll of the object ball, the speed of the shot, and the humidity of the room, among other things. Balancing all of these factors is where feel comes in.
thats where the systems get you on the block and feel (or more systems)
find the house

Scaramouche
11-22-2012, 03:49 AM
This collection is growing, has several on kicking and banking.
https://www.youtube.com/user/manningcues

http://www.jimloy.com/billiard/kick.htm

336Robin
11-22-2012, 03:25 PM
Ok shot 1

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ZjFcb2D8fRI/UK2Fjto3fhI/AAAAAAAAOiw/GahFqnHTI0Q/s800/Shot1.png

shooting at the pocket with the arrow pointed to it, as x=0,y=0. Object ball is at an x of 5, and a y of 2 - 5 diamonds from the pocket horizontally, 2 vertically. using that formula you get a width of 3.33, so you aim the object ball onto the line that hits the 3 1/3 diamonds from the pockets

shot 2

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-yOOSgvKphjo/UK2FjtVN83I/AAAAAAAAOis/YIFc9_lHCTY/s800/shot2.png

same pocket as goal pocket. Object ball is at 2.5 horizontally and 2.5 vertically. Plugged in that gives you 1.8 as the aim spot, so the object ball has to travel on that line.


the math is sound geometry, it took a while of playing with the concepts to get it right.

Hitting the perfect pocket speed for shot number one is like riding a fence...it may happen....more likely solution if shoot the shot straight to the rail with force and watch the ball play dead in the pocket. You can draw the ball 1tip or less with force and run out.

I would play the shot the way you diagrammed it if playing One Pocket and were feeling my Pocket Speed real good otherwise Id play it the way I described.

Shot 2 I think your half way point is off by 2 decimals to 1.6 I would play the shot into 1.4 just a tad firm.......again hitting perfect pocket speed is a hard thing to do at certain angles it doesnt take hitting off on the rail much or hitting just a tad above pocket speed to make a perfectly divided bank play short....of course all of this depends on how much cue ball travel you want and how thickly you are hitting the ball.....the 2 ball combo isnt to bad from most positions for the next shot..

Nice diagrams kudos dude...

Just another lovely day in paradise.....

336robin :thumbup:
aimisthegameinpool.com
aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com

JoeyA
11-22-2012, 03:52 PM
That's geometry. Pool is physics. You have to account for the compression of the cushion, the roll of the object ball, the speed of the shot, and the humidity of the room, among other things. Balancing all of these factors is where feel comes in.

Yes, what you said, among other things like roll of the cue ball, slide of the cue ball, back-spin on the cue ball, side-spin on the cue ball, swerve of the cue ball, deflection of the cue ball. :banghead:

The Kiss
11-22-2012, 04:11 PM
I have a book Written by a PHD that has all the kicking and counting systems. Can't find the book or remember the name but someone likely has the name

Might be down stairs in the pool room. Awesome resource I'll see if it turns up

Bob Jewett
11-22-2012, 07:48 PM
I have a book Written by a PHD that has all the kicking and counting systems. Can't find the book or remember the name but someone likely has the name

Might be down stairs in the pool room. Awesome resource I'll see if it turns up
You probably mean the book by Desmond Allen. While he may have a lot of systems, I don't think he comes close to Walt Harris's massive collection of systems.

JuicyGirl
11-22-2012, 08:50 PM
I used to feel like I just stepped in to the twilight zone. For the life of me I couldn't understand why I could make kicks and banks yesterday and can't hit sh!t today.

The best thing I have so far has nothing to do with math, physics or geometry but it works for me. I have to practice banks and kicks on the game table on that day (everyday) to catch my feel for the night. A lot of the mechanics of pool merge into factors that are not included in a math formula like humidity, how soft or hard each rail is, maybe the specific condition of your game table (is it fast or slow, are there a crap load of pilings from the new cheap felt), heck you even need to watch out for the condition of the balls on the table. I can grant you that I will flub my banks during my warm up at ridiculous rates. I may spend easy 20 balls trying to make it in to the center pocket ( I do practice kicks and other banks during my warm up). After that I'm solid on my kicks and banks. At my level that's really good, and I intend to keep getting better.

ndakotan
11-22-2012, 10:00 PM
....ahahahahah!!!
I wish was real!!

Beside jokes, I thank you all, but I know a lot of systems, and for 1 and 2 rails I feel quite confident ( like missing 1 or 2 out of 10)
I was just saying that during matches sometimes my confidence fade off ( choking?)
So I wonder if same happen to any of you!!
In reality , kicks specially is not something you often use, unless obliged!
I'm actually try to rely more on rails rather than jump shot, i.e. !!!
But someone says right! Need to put more practice to get used to it!

Well, I'll go practice now! See ya!
;-)

I did not mean to make lite of someone trying to further their knowledge (sorry). I am a guy that firmly believes in systems for 1-2 rail kicks and use them in games. Sometimes I am successful, and sometimes not. Frankly, I only use the systems when I feel a little off. When I am in stroke, I rarely think about anything like this. I just thought the question was a little weird, because the systems are the theoretical shortcut and feel is the artsy shortcut. I can't think of any other ways to do it. If it was easier than a system or feel shot, the idea would be patented. The trick is to use systems and feel together.

Stroke em straight and shoot well.

Brian

Patrick Johnson
11-22-2012, 10:42 PM
For one rail banks and kicks I visualize nearby "equal angle reference angles" using the diamonds.

Here are the reference angles for banking/kicking to the bottom left corner pocket - they connect each 1/2 diamond on the far rail with the whole diamond twice as far along on the near rail:

249263

Of course, I don't visualize all these reference angles for every shot to that corner. For instance, the 2 ball is very near one reference angle, so I'll just compare it to that one:

249264

The 1 ball is midway between two reference angles, so I'll compare it to both of them:

249265

Here's the same technique applied to kicking at a ball that's not on the near rail. Just move the near "rail" (where you measure the whole diamonds) up to be parallel with the target - it doesn't matter if the cue ball is above or below the adjusted "rail".

250013

pj
chgo

JB Cases
11-22-2012, 10:51 PM
My advice - find the system that is easiest for you to see the aim quickly and then practice with that until you can pretty much see the banks without the system. That's what I did and now I have a pretty good feeling for bank shots. But I will when needed use the system I like best to figure them.

Ratta
11-22-2012, 11:38 PM
Hi all,


I am for sure a big believer of *knowledge is power*- and if it s about banking and kicking, you definitley need a lot of knowledge and even more expirience.
To know some system is very helpful-and especially under pressure. But you need to practice a lot and you need the expirience from playing over and over again under different conditions (weather,changing material etc. ). If we just talk about *simple* banks or kicks (equal in-an-out angle ) for example- this is already tough enough- as soon as you have you *dead straight in bank shot*- there are already several things you have to know. Correct speed, condition of cloth, condition of the rails etc.- This you just can master, if oyu have the necessary expirience. Even if you know how the *perfect path of the object ball and how it has to roll* you have not 100% success for sure. Just a minor angle from whitey to the object ball (not straight in line with ob) you ll have the first problem. As soon as whitey has an angle to the ob- and so that you have to *cut* the object ball, (no matter if it s a thin cut or just 10 degree) the objectball you have to calculate throw and english.

So you have to practice over and over again with kick shots and bank shots. Expirience and knowledge are your best friends. and best friends are hard to find :-)

lg
Ingo

336Robin
11-25-2012, 09:08 AM
For one rail banks and kicks I visualize nearby "equal angle reference angles" using the diamonds.

Here are the reference angles for banking/kicking to the bottom left corner pocket - they connect each 1/2 diamond on the far rail with the whole diamond twice as far along on the near rail:

249263

Of course, I don't visualize all these reference angles for every shot to that corner. For instance, the 2 ball is very near one reference angle, so I'll just compare it to that one:

249264

The 1 ball is midway between two reference angles, so I'll compare it to both of them:

249265

pj
chgo

Very simply put and very effective....the diamonds on the table easily denote the reference angles.......the most important things you can do with them is know.....if you are playing a game such as One Pocket that shooting pocket speed at close to those half way points works pretty good.....if you are cinching the banks at a higher speed an addition needs to be made to the angle.....ie...a shot with a half way point of.....1.50 would need to be shot at 1.25 if coming out of 3....or coming out of 2 ....shoot at .75...nicely made point....great diagrams...

Just another lovely day in paradise.....

336Robin:thumbup:

aimisthegameinpool.com
aimisthegaminpool@yahoo.com

RunoutJJ
11-25-2012, 09:56 AM
I use the Isosceles Triangle method from Phil's book. It varies on certain shots and a little trial and error with english, draw and follow. Mostly I use it to find a certain area of the rail to kick from and then apply my sense of "feel" (fine tune the exact point of contact) to make the hit. Its really hard to explain in text and would be easier to see in a diagram form. Depending on the difficulty of the kick I usually hit the object ball 90% of the time and make it or come really close 50% of the time. Its not the most solid method on kicking but it works for me :embarrassed2:

dardusm
11-25-2012, 10:09 AM
To all of you , fellow players,
here a subject that I feel weak in!

Any of us, I'm sure, is more or less aware of the various systems of aimig to rails for kicking/banking(such like Sid,2 rails parallel lines, 3 rails counting, fixed point for 3 rails...etc etc), but personally I find it hard to remember/use while in a game!!!

Maybe just a lack of experience / specific training, maybe lazyness......but I'm wondering if any of you has developped an "easy shortcut" to use when "in the heat" of a match!

Thanks for your imput!! :grin:

I have the same issue as you do. I can't seem to remember the systems in competition because I don't use them that often. I'll practice to get a certain system down and then it all goes out the window when it's time to use it in competition. For one rail kicks, If I don't "see" or "feel" the kick based on past experience, I will will walk to the rail and visualize angle in and angle out to find the reference point on the rail. It has worked very well for me. I'm hitting a very high percentage of one rail kicks. Of course, you will need to account for speed and English but angle in and angle out is a very good guideline.

336Robin
11-25-2012, 10:45 AM
I have the same issue as you do. I can't seem to remember the systems in competition because I don't use them that often. I'll practice to get a certain system down and then it all goes out the window when it's time to use it in competition. For one rail kicks, If I don't "see" or "feel" the kick based on past experience, I will will walk to the rail and visualize angle in and angle out to find the reference point on the rail. It has worked very well for me. I'm hitting a very high percentage of one rail kicks. Of course, you will need to account for speed and English but angle in and angle out is a very good guideline.

Angle in an out with planned deduction for me is the only way...I dont hit em all but I dont sweat em either...

scottjen26
11-25-2012, 04:27 PM
I'm a firm believer in both systems and feel when it comes to kicking/banking. When I was playing 3 cushion a ton, I learned a lot about cueball and object ball reactions just from banging the balls around while learning. I also learned dozens of systems to help estimate all sorts of shots - normal 3 cushion shots, 2 rail umbrella systems, dead ball systems, etc. Many of these are useful in pool as well, and I use them all the time.

Ultimately though, you will need to understand how hitting the cue ball with different speeds and spins affects the lines, as well as how table conditions do the same. When you combine the system knowledge with the "feel" knowledge and learn to have confidence in it then you will no longer feel out of sorts when staring down a shot in competition.


I remember learning the Corner 5 3 cushion system. Even though it's simple math (CB - third rail = first rail), memorizing the track lines and rail numbers, learning to estimate cue ball positions, etc. takes some time. I would spend 30 seconds or more over a shot trying to figure it out. But with just a bit of practice you can reduce that to 1 - 2 seconds, almost seamless, not to mention over time you build up quite a bit of intuition based on all of the system shots and you can just see the lines easily.

No substitute for practice. Focus on a few systems at a time, dedicate time to each one during each practice session until they become ingrained, and you won't have that feeling of losing confidence during a game. Worse case you miss and figure out where you went wrong - bad calculation, bad stroke, didn't account for conditions, etc.


In case you want some more reference materials, I did a series of articles years ago, they can be found at poolstudent.com, just go down the right side to the Instruction link. You'll find multiple methods for 1 and 2 rail kicks and a write up on System Sid. Someday I'll finish what I started... :)

Scott

bbb
11-25-2012, 06:54 PM
I'm a firm believer in both systems and feel when it comes to kicking/banking.

In case you want some more reference materials, I did a series of articles years ago, they can be found at poolstudent.com, just go down the right side to the Instruction link. You'll find multiple methods for 1 and 2 rail kicks and a write up on System Sid. Someday I'll finish what I started... :)

Scott

scott your articles
david sapolis kicking academy
and my house pro mark coats
were EXTEMELY helpfull in teching me systems
i had to hear them many times before they sunk in
after a year its no different than asking me to say the alphabet
i want to thank you for the knowledge you shared
its helped me ALOT

Patrick Johnson
11-25-2012, 09:29 PM
Here's another way of measuring kick shots, a little different from the "reference angles" method I posted earlier, but using the same 2-to-1 principle. It should be self explanatory...

249610

Like the "reference angles" this measures the "equal angle" kick, so of course you need to adjust for cloth stickiness & ball speed/spin.

pj
chgo

Ratta
11-28-2012, 11:06 AM
Hello everybody,

someone posted about *The Kicking Academy* (several times) - just talked few minutes ago with my good friend David Sapolis aka "BlackJack" here on the forum.
He wants to make sure, that the right person gets the credit for the really great pdf file called *Kicking Academy*. This file/stuff was generated and put together by the old AZ Member *DeadAim*. Later Craig Sullivan put the pdf-file together, and David just shared the link for this great stuff with the community here.

So just as an information for all: The credit here goes alone to the user "DeadAim"

lg from overseas,
Ingo

EasyEJL
11-28-2012, 11:15 AM
Hello everybody,

someone posted about *The Kicking Academy* (several times) - just talked few minutes ago with my good friend David Sapolis aka "BlackJack" here on the forum.
He wants to make sure, that the right person gets the credit for the really great pdf file called *Kicking Academy*. This file/stuff was generated and put together by the old AZ Member *DeadAim*. Later Craig Sullivan put the pdf-file together, and David just shared the link for this great stuff with the community here.

So just as an information for all: The credit here goes alone to the user "DeadAim"

lg from overseas,
Ingo

And since I haven't seen the link before, I found it so everyone else who is interested can read

http://deadstrokeuniversity.com/Kicking_Academy.pdf

Ratta
11-28-2012, 11:23 AM
And since I haven't seen the link before, I found it so everyone else who is interested can read

http://deadstrokeuniversity.com/Kicking_Academy.pdf

Hey, that s great :)

It was David who asked nicley to make clear, who deserves the credit for this nice file - that s it.

have a smooth stroke,
Ingo

bbb
11-28-2012, 12:08 PM
Hello everybody,

someone posted about *The Kicking Academy* (several times) - just talked few minutes ago with my good friend David Sapolis aka "BlackJack" here on the forum.
He wants to make sure, that the right person gets the credit for the really great pdf file called *Kicking Academy*. This file/stuff was generated and put together by the old AZ Member *DeadAim*. Later Craig Sullivan put the pdf-file together, and David just shared the link for this great stuff with the community here.

So just as an information for all: The credit here goes alone to the user "DeadAim"

lg from overseas,
Ingo

Ingo
i just re read your post
all this time i thought DeadAim was david sapolis aka blackjack (i think)
never knew either that craig sullivan was involved in getting the pdf file link organized
the info in there is
the most comprehensive reference for kicking ive run across (and its free!!!)and probably 98% of what most people would need to know

dr_dave
11-28-2012, 12:11 PM
To all of you , fellow players,
here a subject that I feel weak in!

Any of us, I'm sure, is more or less aware of the various systems of aimig to rails for kicking/banking(such like Sid,2 rails parallel lines, 3 rails counting, fixed point for 3 rails...etc etc), but personally I find it hard to remember/use while in a game!!!

Maybe just a lack of experience / specific training, maybe lazyness......but I'm wondering if any of you has developped an "easy shortcut" to use when "in the heat" of a match!

Thanks for your imput!! :grin:As many people have suggested, the only way to get more comfortable aiming kick and bank shots is to practice them a lot. With enough practice and experience, good players can aim kicks and banks strictly by feel (i.e., intuitively). However, for those of us who don't have perfect intuition created over countless years of successful practice and experience, the "systems" can be very helpful (assuming you practice them enough to be able to use them quickly and comfortably at the table). FYI, lots of resources (including video demonstrations and instructional articles) covering in detail all of the most-commonly used systems can be found here:
bank and kick shot aiming systems (AKA "diamond systems") (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html)

The rest is up to you (i.e., learn the knowledge and practice the systems a lot).

Regards,
Dave

bbb
11-28-2012, 12:13 PM
oops ....:o
dr daves material is also free and a treemendous resource for every thing pool:thumbup:

eddie0776
11-28-2012, 12:56 PM
if you play more banks and one pocket you will get plenty of practice at both.

cuenut
11-29-2012, 06:08 AM
That's geometry. Pool is physics. You have to account for the compression of the cushion, the roll of the object ball, the speed of the shot, and the humidity of the room, among other things. Balancing all of these factors is where feel comes in.

Pool is both geometry and physics. Reflection, congruent and corresponding angles, parallel lines, tangent points, etc. complicted or distorted by the physics you mention. It is balancing the factors you mention with the geometry.