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Johnnyt
11-24-2012, 11:16 PM
Anyone know if the Bonus Ball players are under contract anf if so do the players have to play all 23 weeks? Johnnyt

JumpinJoe
11-25-2012, 12:18 AM
Anyone know if the Bonus Ball players are under contract anf if so do the players have to play all 23 weeks? Johnnyt

They all signed contracts. They can have subs pkay, but it dont benefit them too. Theres alot of extra awards at seasons end for different ategories.

That being sad, it has been postponed again. Was suppose to start next week. I think January now.

Johnnyt
11-25-2012, 02:00 AM
They all signed contracts. They can have subs pkay, but it dont benefit them too. Theres alot of extra awards at seasons end for different ategories.

That being sad, it has been postponed again. Was suppose to start next week. I think January now.

Thanks for the info Joe. Johnnyr

nathandumoulin
11-25-2012, 02:18 AM
Short answer: yes. All players are under contract.

The postponement is true. All players are here in vegas and being paid full salary during the 3 week delay.

Name one other entity that will pay out 6 figures to the players for a construction delay. :)

Luxury
11-25-2012, 02:31 AM
Short answer: yes. All players are under contract.

The postponement is true. All players are here in vegas and being paid full salary during the 3 week delay.

Name one other entity that will pay out 6 figures to the players for a construction delay. :)

Impressive.

Black-Balled
11-25-2012, 07:38 AM
how could this possibly be?

An expensive error, at best. I hope once corrected, somebody puts his big-boy pants on and makes it work.

TQM...as much as possible, given humans are present.

jay helfert
11-25-2012, 07:42 AM
Short answer: yes. All players are under contract.

The postponement is true. All players are here in vegas and being paid full salary during the 3 week delay.

Name one other entity that will pay out 6 figures to the players for a construction delay. :)

There will be ACTION in the Vegas poolrooms, that's for sure! Best Billiards will probably look like murderers row every night.

elvicash
11-25-2012, 08:13 AM
Short answer: yes. All players are under contract.

The postponement is true. All players are here in vegas and being paid full salary during the 3 week delay.

Name one other entity that will pay out 6 figures to the players for a construction delay. :)

GM, Ford, Boeing, Cummins, Allisons, Any city, BP it is a long list but basically anyone who plans on doing long term business will pay their help during a construction delay. Now if you are talking pool then that is a whole different thing and I applaud the bonus ball people.

Please give us some details on the bonus ball,
Can we watch it live?
Is it only PPV streaming or will it be free to watch?
How much does it cost to watch it live if I am in Vegas?
How many can attend a live event?

Good luck to all involved with Bonus Ball.

vpbb123
11-25-2012, 09:07 AM
It certainly is not the players fault that a simple construction of an arena could fall so far behind! It really amazes me that this is the second delay after many promises of getting this project done! In defence of the contractor, doing business in Las Vegas is unlike anything we have ever seen!

However, it will be long forgotten after the games do begin! In Winnipeg,we have a new arena being built that is already millions over budget and a year behind so it is not really a big deal when you look at the big picture!

A big huge thanks goes out to the players and Nathan for sticking with this project. We hope the fans will be as understanding! The show must go on and i am assured that it will from everyone involved!

Majic
11-25-2012, 09:15 AM
Anyone know if the Bonus Ball players are under contract anf if so do the players have to play all 23 weeks? Johnnyt

They may have to get fans under contract considering all the delays ;)

SpiderWebComm
11-25-2012, 10:15 AM
How can they afford to pay the players six figs when there's really no revenue? Does anyone know how they're funding this or how they plan to create real revenue? Are they betting on the come that they can sell the show to tv or something? Just curious. I like the idea..but I'm lost as to how this will become a solvent business.

vpbb123
11-25-2012, 10:40 AM
Money is plenty in the world of sport. There are many people that love this concept. Billiards is one of the most well know games in the world. Unfortunately, it is still yet to be considered a sport! A new game has been structured to challenge and showcase the fantastic skills that professional players have in comparison to amateurs. It has also been carefully designed to fit the criteria for television! This is where we have a huge competitive advantage. We also own the game.

The expected revenue will come from television, PPV, merchandize, advertising and of course amateur leagues, just like other sports. Will there be profit in the first few years, I don't know about that but down the road, they hope so. If they are wrong I guess everyone will simply go back to the way they try and make a living now. If it is successful, finally billiards can be looked upon as a sport. Everyone will gain from their success except the promoters of todays billiards. Is that going to really be a bad thing?!

JCIN
11-25-2012, 11:00 AM
So what is the new proposed start date ?

punter
11-25-2012, 11:04 AM
How can they afford to pay the players six figs when there's really no revenue? Does anyone know how they're funding this or how they plan to create real revenue? Are they betting on the come that they can sell the show to tv or something? Just curious. I like the idea..but I'm lost as to how this will become a solvent business.

Probably, like how our country is being run. ;)

ChrisBanks
11-25-2012, 11:24 AM
I think it may become apparent that what is exciting for the "masses" is not exciting for fans of pool. I would prefer watching these top pros play one pocket, banks, 10-ball, even straight pool.

I watched two matches of bonus ball, and I didn't get what made it so exciting. Maybe it will grow on me.

The most exciting pool I've seen in the past couple of years has been Earl vs. Shane on the 10', race to 100.

I'm willing to give bonus ball a chance, it's better than nothing.

JCIN
11-25-2012, 11:34 AM
How can they afford to pay the players six figs when there's really no revenue? Does anyone know how they're funding this or how they plan to create real revenue? Are they betting on the come that they can sell the show to tv or something? Just curious. I like the idea..but I'm lost as to how this will become a solvent business.

I am figuring around a $2,000,000 per season nut for this thing. If they dont really expect to make anything for the first couple of seasons thats starts to add up to real money.

PPV wont even pay production costs. Nothing in pool has ever had a 1000 unique paid PPV. If Bonus Ball breaks that record two times over and gets 2000 paid per week it still doesn't cover player payroll (not even counting the million dollar prize fund) TV is the only viable option I can see to ever come close to the kind of money required to make it viable long term.

If you get TV then you can sell merchandise and advertising at a level that may begin to offset the costs of doing the thing. Owning the whole game lock and barrel is an interesting approach and probably pitches well to investors. Its been said the main focus is going after non-pool fans which sounds great in theory, you just have to compete with every other entertainment industry on earth.

I'll be damned if I can see how it works but then I am far from a good businessman so that doesnt really mean much. In the grand scheme of things I guess people shoot four or five million on small business ideas all the time in this country.

JCIN
11-25-2012, 11:46 AM
Everyone will gain from their success except the promoters of todays billiards. Is that going to really be a bad thing?!

Interesting statement Barry.

You saying other promoters should be worried bonus ball is going to put them out of business or that bonus ball is going to make traditional games sink even lower in payouts and events?

Kid Dynomite
11-25-2012, 12:17 PM
I hate to say this but, isn't creating a new game like reinventing the wheel?

The bank pool match at Southern classic is exciting and difficult enough that ANYONE would be AWESTRUCK! Banking 10 in a row from certain defeat.

Just an observation!

KD

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

bfdlad
11-25-2012, 12:23 PM
Interesting statement Barry.

You saying other promoters should be worried bonus ball is going to put them out of business or that bonus ball is going to make traditional games sink even lower in payouts and events?
Wow, that does sound a little ominous. Speaking as the smallest fish in the promotional pond I wish them success but hope they don't hurt too many people in the process. Barry may need to clarify his statement as it may just have came out wrong.

rackemup20
11-25-2012, 12:36 PM
Anyone know if the Bonus Ball players are under contract anf if so do the players have to play all 23 weeks? Johnnyt

I was on Ohio the other day an heard rumors that mike Dechaine has opted out of bonus ball. Is there truth to this rumor? If so who is taking his spot because I know if a young gun from the Boston area that would be a great selection to take his spot

ChrisBanks
11-25-2012, 12:41 PM
I hate to say this but, isn't creating a new game like reinventing the wheel?

The bank pool match at Southern classic is exciting and difficult enough that ANYONE would be AWESTRUCK! Banking 10 in a row from certain defeat.

Just an observation!

KD

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

You're right, I think bank pool might be the most exciting game. One pocket is exciting to me, even when it's played squeezing.

Bank pool is easy to follow for the non-player too.

I've never been anxious to watch a match of 8-ball, and the bonus ball I watched fell into the same category.

Mark Griffin
11-25-2012, 12:42 PM
The start date has now been announced as Jan. 3rd.

From Barry Bremner Facebook page



Mark Griffin

singernak
11-25-2012, 12:44 PM
Mike Dechaine, is not participating in Bonus ball, he also is not longer associated or wants to be associated with ABP.

sjm
11-25-2012, 01:31 PM
Mike Dechaine, is not participating in Bonus ball, he also is not longer associated or wants to be associated with ABP.

Are you sure? Mike is listed on the WPBL website as a member of the Boston team.

On the other hand, if what you've posted is true, although one has to respect the decisions made by both Shane and Mike, it's disheartening to learn that neither of America's top two players will play bonus ball. Of course, just like the entrepreneurs at bonus ball, I'm hoping that bonus ball succeeds to the point that both Shane and Mike will want in next season.

meximan2469
11-25-2012, 01:42 PM
To answer a few questions .....

1) Yes the start date has been delayed until Jan 3rd because of construction delays

2) Yes Mike Dechaine will not be involved with Bonus Ball

3) Thorsten has now been named the captain of the Boston team and is currently in the process of filling the open roster spot.

4) The players are all in Vegas and will be going through a training camp style week..... which to be completely honest is needed for a lot of these guys and is kinda a blessing in disguise.

5) The players are getting paid for 3 weeks salary and are only expected to be here for the 6 day training camp.

Mark Griffin
11-25-2012, 02:26 PM
OK - I applaud Bonus Ball for paying the players 3 weeks salary, and I am sure a lot of the players to come up to speed on the game.

But I just feel something has to be said;

First of all, I want to state that I hope Bonus Ball gets some traction and is a big success. That would be good for pool. Even if it is very successful, the other standard games are not going to disappear.

Here is my problem. It was asked many times if they would open on schedule - and everyone has been told yes. Keep in mind this adventure was originally going to start back around may of 2012.

Then the start date was November 3rd, which the got moved to Nov. 29th and now is moved to Jan 3rd. It now seems someone dropped the ball and didn't know or didn't want to tell people that a delay was going to happened. This also caused a lot of travel stress on the players. I don't get it - the goal should be to work WITH everyone.

Constantly changing the dates puts everyone in a fix. This is just like scheduling a tournament and then cancelling. Nobody can do any events or schedule any promotions because the decent promoters try to avoid conflicts.

I am sincerely asking the management of Bonus Ball to keep the players and other promoters better informed on their actual schedule. To do otherwise will cause discord and animosity in an already fractured industry.

This is very serious stuff!

I hope this gets someone's attention before any more damage is done.

Respectfully,


Mark Griffin

As a PS, In a previous podcast, I predicted that BB would not start until mid January. I am still saying first matches will be Jan. 10th.

Roger Long
11-25-2012, 02:36 PM
OK - I applaud Bonus Ball for paying the players 3 weeks salary, and I am sure a lot of the players to come up to speed on the game.

But I just feel something has to be said;

First of all, I want to state that I hope Bonus Ball gets some traction and is a big success. That would be good for pool. Even if it is very successful, the other standard games are not going to disappear.

Here is my problem. It was asked many times if they would open on schedule - and everyone has been told yes. Keep in mind this adventure was originally going to start back around may of 2012.

Then the start date was November 3rd, which the got moved to Nov. 29th and now is moved to Jan 3rd. It now seems someone dropped the ball and didn't know or didn't want to tell people that a delay was going to happened. This also caused a lot of travel stress on the players. I don't get it - the goal should be to work WITH everyone.

Constantly changing the dates puts everyone in a fix. This is just like scheduling a tournament and then cancelling. Nobody can do any events or schedule any promotions because the decent promoters try to avoid conflicts.

I am sincerely asking the management of Bonus Ball to keep the players and other promoters better informed on their actual schedule. To do otherwise will cause discord and animosity in an already fractured industry.

This is very serious stuff!

I hope this gets someone's attention before any more damage is done.

Respectfully,


Mark Griffin

As a PS, In a previous podcast, I predicted that BB would not start until mid January. I am still saying first matches will be Jan. 10th.

Mark:

I'm not a spokesperson for Bonus Ball, but I was there yesterday and was very courteously afforded a full tour of the facilities and given an in-depth explanation for the delays. I can tell you that the delays are mainly due to many last-minute changes that will vastly improve on what was originally planned. These changes will benefit the players and the audiences (both live and TV) alike.

I don't feel I am at liberty to say any more than that at this time.

Roger

AtLarge
11-25-2012, 03:12 PM
... The expected revenue will come from television, PPV, merchandize, advertising and of course amateur leagues, just like other sports. ...

... I'll be damned if I can see how it works ...

"and of course amateur leagues" is an interesting item in that list. Do the BB owners foresee something like the APA in their futures -- pouring money into their pockets like the APA has for Terry Bell and Larry Hubbart for 30 years? Could BB ultimately replace the APA or the BCAPL or some other amateur league in some/many areas?

Luxury
11-25-2012, 03:25 PM
"and of course amateur leagues" is an interesting item in that list. Do the BB owners foresee something like the APA in their futures -- pouring money into their pockets like the APA has for Terry Bell and Larry Hubbart for 30 years? Could BB ultimately replace the APA or the BCAPL or some other amateur league in some/many areas?

I sure hope it becomes a successful league. 10 times funner than eight ball for me.

Jesters
11-25-2012, 03:29 PM
OK - I applaud Bonus Ball for paying the players 3 weeks salary, and I am sure a lot of the players to come up to speed on the game.

But I just feel something has to be said;

First of all, I want to state that I hope Bonus Ball gets some traction and is a big success. That would be good for pool. Even if it is very successful, the other standard games are not going to disappear.

Here is my problem. It was asked many times if they would open on schedule - and everyone has been told yes. Keep in mind this adventure was originally going to start back around may of 2012.

Then the start date was November 3rd, which the got moved to Nov. 29th and now is moved to Jan 3rd. It now seems someone dropped the ball and didn't know or didn't want to tell people that a delay was going to happened. This also caused a lot of travel stress on the players. I don't get it - the goal should be to work WITH everyone.

Constantly changing the dates puts everyone in a fix. This is just like scheduling a tournament and then cancelling. Nobody can do any events or schedule any promotions because the decent promoters try to avoid conflicts.

I am sincerely asking the management of Bonus Ball to keep the players and other promoters better informed on their actual schedule. To do otherwise will cause discord and animosity in an already fractured industry.

This is very serious stuff!

I hope this gets someone's attention before any more damage is done.

Respectfully,


Mark Griffin

As a PS, In a previous podcast, I predicted that BB would not start until mid January. I am still saying first matches will be Jan. 10th.
Another delay that is being sugar coated for those who will listen. This time the delay is due to them making the game better. They are almost a year behind schedule I would have thought this kind of thing would be already handled during the other delays. This just seems to be not very well managed and from what I can gather is putting promoters in a position to rearrange or cancel or work around their schedule that keeps getting changed. Maybe they do not realize that as must as they believe the pool world as we know it is dead or how much they think that Bonus Ball is the only game worth playing it is NOT the only thing in pool and that their actions are putting the players in a spot too. Maybe before long the players will turn against Bonus ball after putting their lives on hold waiting for the game to actually start. The fact that Bonus Ball are paying the players can be looked at as a good thing and it beats the alternative but in reality all they are doing is what is right and what should be done. I also wonder how many of the players actually knew it was going to be delayed AGAIN before they got to Las Vegas. Or was it a shock to find this out? Was it a ploy to just get the players there and once cornered they had to agree to pay them or the players would have walked off the job. What kind of odds could someone get that Bonus Ball does not start in January as planned? How long are they going to string these players along? I know there are some supporters out there that are not going to like my honesty but come on really? This would not fly in any other sport and they are taking advantage of that.

JCIN
11-25-2012, 03:43 PM
Mark:

I'm not a spokesperson for Bonus Ball, but I was there yesterday and was very courteously afforded a full tour of the facilities and given an in-depth explanation for the delays. I can tell you that the delays are mainly due to many last-minute changes that will vastly improve on what was originally planned. These changes will benefit the players and the audiences (both live and TV) alike.

I don't feel I am at liberty to say any more than that at this time.

Roger

Thats all well and good but has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the point he was making. At some point they knew they were going to make those changes. Why wait until four days before the scheduled launch date to announce them? If they are a month out from being done I find it hard to believe they didnt know that until four days before the kick off date.

They let players fly all the way to Vegas. Either they knew the building wouldnt be done and just didnt care to mention it to anyone or they dont know whats going on. Its become ridiculous.

It not only hurts people like me it hurts players and fans. Dancing around this moving target of a schedule has kept TAR from doing two matches due to scheduling conflicts that could have been done if we knew they were nowhere near ready to go. Thats $12,000 out of four players pockets and two events people never got to see.

Bonus ball reps have said they want to work with the industry. They should either do that or make it clear they have no concern at all about anyone else trying to create things in this country. Its their business and they can do what they like but its getting old.

Its hard enough to do this stuff.

Just an unrelated observation....paying players three weeks pay is not some benevolent gesture. If they didnt pay off half of the players wouldn't come back in January.

Jesters
11-25-2012, 03:48 PM
Thats all well and good but has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the point he was making. At some point they knew they were going to make those changes. Why wait until four days before the scheduled launch date to announce them? If they are a month out from being done I find it hard to believe they didnt know that until four days before the kick off date.

They let players fly all the way to Vegas. Either they knew the building wouldnt be done and just didnt care to mention it to anyone or they dont know whats going on. Its become ridiculous.

It not only hurts people like me it hurts players and fans. Dancing around this moving target of a schedule has kept TAR from doing two matches due to scheduling conflicts that could have been done if we knew they were nowhere near ready to go. Thats $12,000 out of four players pockets and two events people never got to see.

Bonus ball reps have said they want to work with the industry. They should either do that or make it clear they have no concern at all about anyone else trying to create things in this country. Its their business and they can do what they like but its getting old.

Its hard enough to do this stuff.

Just an unrelated observation....paying players three weeks pay is not some benevolent gesture. If they didnt pay off half of the players wouldn't come back in January.
MY previous post on page #2

Another delay that is being sugar coated for those who will listen. This time the delay is due to them making the game better. They are almost a year behind schedule I would have thought this kind of thing would be already handled during the other delays. This just seems to be not very well managed and from what I can gather is putting promoters in a position to rearrange or cancel or work around their schedule that keeps getting changed. Maybe they do not realize that as must as they believe the pool world as we know it is dead or how much they think that Bonus Ball is the only game worth playing it is NOT the only thing in pool and that their actions are putting the players in a spot too. Maybe before long the players will turn against Bonus ball after putting their lives on hold waiting for the game to actually start. The fact that Bonus Ball are paying the players can be looked at as a good thing and it beats the alternative but in reality all they are doing is what is right and what should be done. I also wonder how many of the players actually knew it was going to be delayed AGAIN before they got to Las Vegas. Or was it a shock to find this out? Was it a ploy to just get the players there and once cornered they had to agree to pay them or the players would have walked off the job. What kind of odds could someone get that Bonus Ball does not start in January as planned? How long are they going to string these players along? I know there are some supporters out there that are not going to like my honesty but come on really? This would not fly in any other sport and they are taking advantage of that.

Johnnyt
11-25-2012, 04:43 PM
While paying the players until the new start date is a plus for Bonus Ball I would think they had a performance bond with the contractor. Johnnyt

Majic
11-25-2012, 04:54 PM
While paying the players until the new start date is a plus for Bonus Ball I would think they had a performance bond with the contractor. Johnnyt

makes you wonder what is really going on doesn't it.


doing what you say your going to do is called integrity

Fatboy
11-25-2012, 05:08 PM
how could this possibly be?

An expensive error, at best. I hope once corrected, somebody puts his big-boy pants on and makes it work.

TQM...as much as possible, given humans are present.


county inspectors are brutal in Vegas now, I know I had a few beef's with them. Because 80% were laid off the survivors take any new file(new biz applicant) and work it to death at the expense of the new business to cover their asses so they have something to do. They have f*cked with Larry to death on this, its shameful as Vegas is dyeing, its nearly impossible to make $$ there and then when someone does come along with a real business they get harassed by inspectors who are needlessly making it impossible to open a biz so they can keep they inspector job. Thats what it all boils down to, ZERO to do with pool.


when I moved to Vegas 20 years ago, you could open a biz easy and the local economy was booming, thats why so many people including myself moved to Vegas to open up Biz's. Now its worse than Ca or Ny in Vegas and the local economy suffers needlessly because of jack-off heavy handed inspectors. Its all but impossible to get a "Certificate of occupancy" for any biz nowadays. Because when you do the inspectors lose their action soon as they sign off, so to keep it going they keep busting balls over nothing. This has destroyed Vegas. And is Why I left, I'm just selling off empty buildings to people who think they are stealing them, LOL, I lost my ass-and I'm not the last guy to lose $$$ in Vegas.

I told Larry IMO Vegas was a poor choice for BB, I think Atlanta would have been the smart play. he would get a better gate at the matches, lower rent and less Govt harassment. I only lived and did biz there for 19 years,


thats whats really going on....really:angry:

Fatboy
11-25-2012, 05:13 PM
While paying the players until the new start date is a plus for Bonus Ball I would think they had a performance bond with the contractor. Johnnyt


it aint the contractor, read my post above. I have done probably 10 times more TI(tenant improvement) work than BB is doing, over the past 19 years in Vegas. Even when it was easy and good you couldnt get a performance bond from a contractor UNLESS your a casino with a non-restrictd gaming license, they get(and still do) what they want. Everyone else gets sloppy seconds. Vegas is a different world. It's a little island surrounded by 275 miles of dirt in any direction. Its a island with its own unique set of rules.

Fatboy
11-25-2012, 05:18 PM
MY previous post on page #2

Another delay that is being sugar coated for those who will listen. This time the delay is due to them making the game better. They are almost a year behind schedule I would have thought this kind of thing would be already handled during the other delays. This just seems to be not very well managed and from what I can gather is putting promoters in a position to rearrange or cancel or work around their schedule that keeps getting changed. Maybe they do not realize that as must as they believe the pool world as we know it is dead or how much they think that Bonus Ball is the only game worth playing it is NOT the only thing in pool and that their actions are putting the players in a spot too. Maybe before long the players will turn against Bonus ball after putting their lives on hold waiting for the game to actually start. The fact that Bonus Ball are paying the players can be looked at as a good thing and it beats the alternative but in reality all they are doing is what is right and what should be done. I also wonder how many of the players actually knew it was going to be delayed AGAIN before they got to Las Vegas. Or was it a shock to find this out? Was it a ploy to just get the players there and once cornered they had to agree to pay them or the players would have walked off the job. What kind of odds could someone get that Bonus Ball does not start in January as planned? How long are they going to string these players along? I know there are some supporters out there that are not going to like my honesty but come on really? This would not fly in any other sport and they are taking advantage of that.


you have absolutely zero idea of what your talking about, Why knock them with useless speculation??, these guys are spending millions on this.


I do know whats going on, and henceforth I run my mouth, when I dont know something I STFU about it, as you should.


And people wonder why pool is struggling, wow

Johnnyt
11-25-2012, 05:21 PM
it aint the contractor, read my post above. I have done probably 10 times more TI(tenant improvement) work than BB is doing, over the past 19 years in Vegas. Even when it was easy and good you couldnt get a performance bond from a contractor UNLESS your a casino with a non-restrictd gaming license, they get(and still do) what they want. Everyone else gets sloppy seconds. Vegas is a different world. It's a little island surrounded by 275 miles of dirt in any direction. Its a island with its own unique set of rules.

If this is really the case then Bonus Ball has made a poor choice where to have thier headquarters/studio/arena. Johnnyt

AtLarge
11-25-2012, 05:22 PM
To answer a few questions .....
...
5) The players are getting paid for 3 weeks salary and are only expected to be here for the 6 day training camp.

5-week delay; 3 weeks' salary

1on1pooltournys
11-25-2012, 05:27 PM
I take my hat off to the select few guys that are going to cash in on this venture. The players participating have all paid their dues in pool and deserve some free money.

However, the consensus is this game is a joke. I don't see how in the world these people are making this investment. All I can think is they are having it in Vegas and think maybe they will get to turn it into some type of gambling proposition and "book" the matches? I'm sure something like this has got to be in the plans.

Seems to have lots of similarities to IPT. I wonder if KT is involved? :confused:

nathandumoulin
11-25-2012, 05:40 PM
5-week delay; 3 weeks' salary

You're overlooking the holidays where play was never scheduled. All the players are being paid in full.

If you want to complain, then complain. But at least do it about an issue where you're properly educated.

Prey
11-25-2012, 05:42 PM
As a fan of all pool, I would like to know when this event is going to start before I part with my hard earned money to order it?
Your website says the 29th of November! That is apparently not the case.

AtLarge
11-25-2012, 05:48 PM
An oversight on your part. You're overlooking the holidays where play was never scheduled. All the players are being paid in full.

If you want to complain, then complain. But at least do it about an issue where you're properly educated.

My statement was, as far as I can tell, true. A delay from Nov. 29 to Jan. 3 is 5 weeks. They are receiving 3 weeks' pay during that period. I said no more than that.

On the last schedule I saw, they were to play for 4 weeks prior to Christmas.

Jesters
11-25-2012, 06:04 PM
you have absolutely zero idea of what your talking about, Why knock them with useless speculation??, these guys are spending millions on this.


I do know whats going on, and henceforth I run my mouth, when I dont know something I STFU about it, as you should.


And people wonder why pool is struggling, wow
Its seems in this case I have more of a clue that you do my friend. here is nothing in my assesment that is not a valid point. You may have some interest in defending them and as so can look at this venture through rose colored glasses but for the most part people here are obviously seeing whats going on. Inspectors can be brutal but have they been brutal for almost a year??? Also what is the excuse for not telling the players until they got there? If you are in the know you should be able to easy answer these questions. Somehow I feel that you are not as much in the know as you think you are. Stoip defending things that are not defenable. If you really think that anyone including the players do not have concerns with the reliability of this venture you are kidding yourself. Take a step back and look at it without your bullt in bias and I think that you will realize that yopu are the one who should "STFU"

nathandumoulin
11-25-2012, 06:07 PM
A delay from Nov. 29 to Jan. 3 is 5 weeks. They are receiving 3 weeks' pay during that period. I said no more than that.

Players are paid per week of play. There are 22 weeks of play in the season, and thus 22 pay days. Mosconi cup was a conflict, so 2 weeks were broken up into 3 weeks to schedule around it. As such, there were only 3 paid weeks scheduled during the new delay.

The players are happy and being paid. Yet for some reason people who have nothing invested still complain.

If you want to comment on the delay, lack of organization, or simply don't like the game, then fine. But complaining about free money in an industry where no one ever gets paid seems a little petty.

PS. Not picking on you AtLarge, but rather at the general reception to the delay.

1on1pooltournys
11-25-2012, 06:12 PM
The players are happy and being paid. Yet for some reason people who have nothing invested still complain.

If you want to comment on the delay, lack of organization, or simply don't like the game, then fine. But complaining about free money in an industry where no one ever gets paid seems a little petty.
.

Yes this is a great point from the "player perspective." They deserve this "free money" and I'm glad they are getting it.

However, word from Vegas is this is some top secret military stuff and nobody is coming with real info and facts. Some of the players don't even know the rules.

I sure hope these players manage that bankroll while in Sin City waiting to play. LMAO

vpbb123
11-25-2012, 06:17 PM
We have followed the letter of the law to the rule and as Fatboy states...it has been insane. Nevertheless, it's a construction delay that is out of Larry's hands! The players respect that he chose to give them some Christmas money. Sure, it is disappointing as hell for Larry to have to postpone after believing that all was perfect in a imperfect world. Like I said before, our professional football team has a new arena being built and it is now a year delayed and a few million over budget.

I listen to Mark and Justin cry time and time again on the pod casts about the sad state of the industry but at least Larry is actually trying to do something for the professionals! I say the same thing as them and Justin is ready to crucify me. I call a spade a spade. We need a professional league that does not ask to take $500 out of everyone's pocket and then letting them to play. Forget the game (which plays absolutely fantastic I might add) forget the construction delays, this is all about treating the professional players with the respect due to them.

Trust me, if the players would have begged Larry not to play the game of Bonus Ball, Larry would not be playing Bonus Ball. The real deal here is that Bonus Ball is the game they want to play, at least the majority of them. There are probably a few pretenders out there but they are quickly going to learn that this is a shot makers game, a thinkers game, the men will weed out the boys!

As far as the statement some players don't know the rules...how can you call yourself a professional and come to camp not knowing the rules? If this is true then this delay is heaven sent! Players like Appleton, Archer, Morris and Deuel, just to mention a few, that do know the rules will eat you alive! When I go to a new race track, you better believe I know the rules and play by those rules. It's called pride and professionalism.

nathandumoulin
11-25-2012, 06:17 PM
Some of the players don't even know the rules.

Which is exactly why all the players were still flown into Vegas this week regardless of the delay.

Everyone can speculate and gossip, but this isn't rocket science. It's a construction delay, and theyre using the time to run a boot camp. Everyone gets paid regardless.

I'm in the same boat as the players. My crew gets paid regardless, and we wait.

That's really all there is to it.

RobertaAgnor
11-25-2012, 06:23 PM
The several players I've talked to over the past year have been very excited about the game & tried to explain it to me as well; I think I have it now after watching some of the matches! One player in particular was hoping & hoping to get picked for a team & didn't really think he was going to be but he was picked :).

Delays happen with many different things being the cause such as construction, permits, & inspectors; it's not the fault of the people who are getting the blame when things beyond their control happen.

I love the fact that the players are getting paid through the delay. As long as they're happy & not complaining that's all that really matters; people can say whatever they want.

Anyway, just my two cents...


We have followed the letter of the law to the rule and as Fatboy states...it has been insane. Nevertheless, it's a construction delay that is out of Larry's hands! The players respect that he chose to give them some Christmas money. Sure, it is disappointing as hell for Larry to have to postpone after believing that all was perfect in a imperfect world. Like I said before, our professional football team has a new arena being built and it is now a year delayed and a few million over budget.

I listen to Mark and Justin cry time and time again on the pod casts about the sad state of the industry but at least Larry is actually trying to do something for the professionals! I say the same thing as them and Justin is ready to crucify me. I call a spade a spade. We need a professional league that does not ask to take $500 out of everyone's pocket and then them to play. Forget the game (which plays absolutely fantastic I might add) forget the construction delays, this is all about treating the professional players with the respect due to them.

Trust me, if the players would have begged Larry not to play the game of Bonus Ball, Larry would not be playing Bonus Ball. The real deal here is that Bonus Ball is the game they want to play, at least the majority of them. There are probably a few pretenders out there but they are quickly going to learn that this is a shot makers game, a thinkers game, the men will weed out the boys!

BryanB
11-25-2012, 06:25 PM
Nathan,

Good luck with the new venture. Regardless of when it happens or what the game is, I look forward to the chance to see the pros play

jamesroberts
11-25-2012, 06:26 PM
Why not put on a bonus ball tournament so that some of us amateurs can play with all the big name pros. Make it a decent entry and add a 100k and hold it at a casino or nice hotel. That would certainly be fun for me.

1on1pooltournys
11-25-2012, 06:27 PM
Which is exactly why all the players were still flown into Vegas this week regardless of the delay.

Everyone can speculate and gossip, but this isn't rocket science. It's a construction delay, and theyre using the time to run a boot camp. Everyone gets paid regardless.

I'm in the same boat as the players. My crew gets paid regardless, and we wait.

That's really all there is to it.

This is great news to hear for you. I hope you all have success. You must understand that with great success comes great criticisms. Unfortunately, our sport has many black eyes and bruises, which is why people on the forums are going to question this til the end. It is sad, but just the way things are after one failed attempt after another at promoting the game into a sport on a professional level. Good Luck!! :thumbup:

denzy
11-25-2012, 06:39 PM
Read all the posts. Great game, get free money, dont know when its going to start because of construction and had to fly players in to get the rules figured out. Did I miss anything ? Almost forgot lots of the best players in the world not playing. Good Luck

AtLarge
11-25-2012, 06:44 PM
...Mosconi cup was a conflict, so 2 weeks were broken up into 3 weeks to schedule around it. As such, there were only 3 paid weeks scheduled during the new delay. ...

I understand -- to schedule around the Mosconi Cup, each team was going to play 3 matches over the 4-week period prior to Christmas and be paid 3 times. So no paydays are missed. Actually, I guess 3 paydays are being added, as I imagine they'll still be paid for all the matches starting Jan. 3, right?

nathandumoulin
11-25-2012, 06:48 PM
I understand -- to schedule around the Mosconi Cup, each team was going to play 3 matches over the 4-week period prior to Christmas and be paid 3 times. So no paydays are missed. Actually, I guess 3 paydays are being added, as I imagine they'll still be paid for all the matches starting Jan. 3, right?

Exactly. It's 3 weeks additional to the scheduled 22. Plus playoffs.

And sorry if I came off aggressive earlier. I'm just frustrated with my inability to understand why this delay is such a big deal. :)

SpiderWebComm
11-25-2012, 07:09 PM
I am figuring around a $2,000,000 per season nut for this thing. If they dont really expect to make anything for the first couple of seasons thats starts to add up to real money.

PPV wont even pay production costs. Nothing in pool has ever had a 1000 unique paid PPV. If Bonus Ball breaks that record two times over and gets 2000 paid per week it still doesn't cover player payroll (not even counting the million dollar prize fund) TV is the only viable option I can see to ever come close to the kind of money required to make it viable long term.

If you get TV then you can sell merchandise and advertising at a level that may begin to offset the costs of doing the thing. Owning the whole game lock and barrel is an interesting approach and probably pitches well to investors. Its been said the main focus is going after non-pool fans which sounds great in theory, you just have to compete with every other entertainment industry on earth.

I'll be damned if I can see how it works but then I am far from a good businessman so that doesnt really mean much. In the grand scheme of things I guess people shoot four or five million on small business ideas all the time in this country.

All the ppv on earth won't begin with to cover operational expenses. IPT maaay have hit 1k in Reno...if not, it was 900s.... and that was with the players playing for a $3M purse (with everyone THINKING they'd be paid). So I totally agree with your assessment.

The path to league revenue will only be paved if it's on TV AND it's successful on tv. I've asked some real good players what they thought of Bonus Ball and they didn't know what I was talking about. That means most league players don't know and most outside of azb don't know. Making them know will cost a good bit.

You can't sell enough merchandise to offset either. That will only come after a few successful tv seasons.

I'm hoping the tv thing is locked up already as I want this to fly. I hope the BB owners spread their cash out thinner and don't front load things like KT did.

Please don't flame me for saying the above... I want it to succeed. Paying players full salary (and not expenses and a stipend) during a delay makes no sense to me. You're giving players a free ride... let them grind it out a hair and maybe put 1/2 the value of their salaries in a invitational and let them play for it. Makes them happy and saves you 5 figs.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

SpiderWebComm
11-25-2012, 07:14 PM
Exactly. It's 3 weeks additional to the scheduled 22. Plus playoffs.

And sorry if I came off aggressive earlier. I'm just frustrated with my inability to understand why this delay is such a big deal. :)

The delay isn't a big deal and a huge majority want you to succeed. The big deal is reading about how BB is bleeding cash with no revenue yet.

Prob should setup phantom stock for players and give them a play in the success and some "grind" before money is made.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

Mark Griffin
11-25-2012, 07:21 PM
Barry,

I agree that the state of pool is weak. It is pretty obvious.
I agree that Larry is trying to do something for pool.

But your making it sound like you guys are the only ones doing something for the pool players. How about the $89,000 that CSI is adding in the 3 US Open events in July, the US Bar Table and the Jay Swanson 9-ball?? Not counting the approximate $100,000 we give to our amateur players.

Here is the only thing I was trying to call attention to: THERE HAD TO BE NOTICE THAT THE STARTING DATE WAS GOING TO BE POSTPONED.

Look, I have built a lot of things in my life. And Fatboy is right - las Vegas has a very tough building code and they make life terrible. But it must have been obvious that the nov. 29th date was not going to be met.

Barry states that he is 'treating professional players with the repect due to them'. Does he realize that TAR has danced around Bonus Ball schedules for several months? This has cost the 'players' up to $12,000 in their pockets. And a lot of unnecessary downtime for TAR.

All i am asking for is some consideration. I have voiced this concern to other promoters in the past. When any event changes dates, it basically costs the pool players 2 opportunities to have other events. That means money to the pool players and their fans.

Everybody is supposed to be on the same team. Whether Bonus Ball succeeds or not, the standard games will continue and there will be players and there will be promoters. We all need to treat each other with respect because that will help the game.

This is not crying- this is trying to keep a game from being further fractured.
I am not talking about fiascos like payment at the US Open 9-Ball - I am only referring to honorable, professional promoters that do what they say they will do.

Don't you agree?

Mark Grifin

Kid Dynomite
11-25-2012, 07:29 PM
Some of the players RELOCATED to vegas based on the contract start date and have rental obligations!!!

Contractually and ethically the Bonus Ball corporation is obligated to pay!

So, all this talk about a "Free Ride For The Players" is really unfair and inaccurate!!!

The players turned down other offers! I am sure Archer had to hire someone to look after his pool room during the time he is away! That cost him money and is a expense he would not have if he did not have this bonus ball obligation!

In all fairness of the criticism, The delay is over ONE YEAR and not 5 weeks as some would like you to believe based on my read!

Kd

Fast Lenny
11-25-2012, 08:02 PM
I think the players are very happy, the ones I have seen so far were smiling from ear to ear because they are getting 3 more weeks worth of money and they just had to come here and hang out, those 3 weeks add up to well over $100,000. I like that Bonus Ball is thinking long term and doing the right thing for the players because that is what is important. The players have been kicked around for a long time, this is a great opportunity and if you love pool and the top players then its something to be supported.

These players need to be able to support themselves and their families with a paycheck and not going out there gambling at a tournament with $2000 worth of expenses hoping to finish in the top 3 to make anything. There is enough money in pool to support the pro players but that money is not reaching them.

Fatboy his the nail on the head when it comes to Vegas and the construction delays are beyond Larry's control but he showed his integrity and character by playing the players for the down time and showing that this is the real deal and serious. I think postponing it and telling the players not to come out earlier would have been a bad move as the players were planning on working at this time and making money.

robsnotes4u
11-25-2012, 08:03 PM
To make this work, since it is a new game. Just to add I have played it with Barry. Someone needs to be out there doing demonstrations to the amateur pool players, meaning going pool hall to pool hall. Does that cost money? Of course, but unless you let the pool world know it will not be a success. Everyone that plays pool is not on AzBilliards. What percent of people who play pool, I mean league players would even know if one of the top 20 players walked into there pool room? If they don't know that what is the chance they will know Bonus Ball?

I hope it works, but the obstacles are huge. Just a realist


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Fast Lenny
11-25-2012, 08:16 PM
To make this work, since it is a new game. Just to add I have played it with Barry. Someone needs to be out there doing demonstrations to the amateur pool players, meaning going pool hall to pool hall. Does that cost money? Of course, but unless you let the pool world know it will not be a success. Everyone that plays pool is not on AzBilliards. What percent of people who play pool, I mean league players would even know if one of the top 20 players walked into there pool room? If they don't know that what is the chance they will know Bonus Ball?

I hope it works, but the obstacles are huge. Just a realist


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
That is a great point. I think that whoever is in charge of promotions and marketing at Bonus Ball needs to arrange Bonus Ball exhibitions for free at poolrooms. It is a cheap way to promote the game and get people exposed to it. I think every player should be promoting it in the city their team is representing to start and do stuff at the major rooms of every city.

Kid Dynomite
11-25-2012, 08:26 PM
That is a great point. I think that whoever is in charge of promotions and marketing at Bonus Ball needs to arrange Bonus Ball exhibitions for free at poolrooms. It is a cheap way to promote the game and get people exposed to it. I think every player should be promoting it in the city their team is representing to start and do stuff at the major rooms of every city.

that idea has one flaw the players are ALL in vegas and scheduled to be in vegas for a very long time. When they do return home or if they do return home is unknown! Some may stay in vegas versus paying rent in two places!!!

KD

D_Lewis
11-25-2012, 08:42 PM
that idea has one flaw the players are ALL in vegas and scheduled to be in vegas for a very long time. When they do return home or if they do return home is unknown! Some may stay in vegas versus paying rent in two places!!!

KD

Have you ever had to move for a JOB? How did you make this decision?

Fast Lenny
11-25-2012, 08:42 PM
that idea has one flaw the players are ALL in vegas and scheduled to be in vegas for a very long time. When they do return home or if they do return home is unknown! Some may stay in vegas versus paying rent in two places!!!

KD

Its not that difficult, players have a ton of free time when they are not playing Bonus Ball once a week. They could be flown out to rooms, Bonus Ball could make a deal with the room having the players go there to do an exhibition and the room could pick up expenses or something, plenty of possibilities that benefits the room, players and Bonus Ball.

Fast Lenny
11-25-2012, 08:51 PM
Barry,

I agree that the state of pool is weak. It is pretty obvious.
I agree that Larry is trying to do something for pool.

But your making it sound like you guys are the only ones doing something for the pool players. How about the $89,000 that CSI is adding in the 3 US Open events in July, the US Bar Table and the Jay Swanson 9-ball?? Not counting the approximate $100,000 we give to our amateur players.

Here is the only thing I was trying to call attention to: THERE HAD TO BE NOTICE THAT THE STARTING DATE WAS GOING TO BE POSTPONED.

Look, I have built a lot of things in my life. And Fatboy is right - las Vegas has a very tough building code and they make life terrible. But it must have been obvious that the nov. 29th date was not going to be met.

Barry states that he is 'treating professional players with the repect due to them'. Does he realize that TAR has danced around Bonus Ball schedules for several months? This has cost the 'players' up to $12,000 in their pockets. And a lot of unnecessary downtime for TAR.

All i am asking for is some consideration. I have voiced this concern to other promoters in the past. When any event changes dates, it basically costs the pool players 2 opportunities to have other events. That means money to the pool players and their fans.

Everybody is supposed to be on the same team. Whether Bonus Ball succeeds or not, the standard games will continue and there will be players and there will be promoters. We all need to treat each other with respect because that will help the game.

This is not crying- this is trying to keep a game from being further fractured.
I am not talking about fiascos like payment at the US Open 9-Ball - I am only referring to honorable, professional promoters that do what they say they will do.

Don't you agree?

Mark Grifin



As far as TAR matches go, its a good opportunity for TAR to get stuff going as it has been awhile since we have seen something. I am not sure how Bonus Ball has affected players going to play considering its up to the players if they want to or not. Two players saying they are booked that weekend can get away from Bonus Ball for that time if they feel its worthwhile.

I imagine during these next couple weeks many players will be here in Vegas with lots of free time so you or Justin should make some phone calls and set something up. TAR will save money on expenses of hotel/airfare, the players make some more money and we all get treated to some good matches which we all enjoy. I know your selection is limited mainly because the two players need to be marketable so its worthwhile because you cannot put in two guys that no one really cares to see which i think is the real reason we have seen Shane so many times which I will gladly watch again but some might be ASO (All Shaned Out). I still am pulling for a Shane vs Frost one pocket match.

I am sure you could promote something quickly (1 week) since the marketing usually goes no further then this site and Facebook along with taking a little time to make a flier. With all the players here too I am sure they will come to sweat it also and maybe get in the booth which would be nice for our ears. I for one do not want to see TAR fade away, I enjoy the matches and have watched nearly all of them. I think people are not seeing the big picture though, if Bonus Ball takes off worldwide then those players become better known and more marketable. Now when you put on a TAR match instead of having a few hundred PPVs you might have several thousand, TAR makes more money and so do the players with better paydays.

As far as Bonus Ball owing anything to anyone in the industry other than the players, they do not. There is a real reason why the people making money in the industry do not work together which is mainly because it is a business, it should be competitive. If Bonus Ball really wanted to screw other people in the industry they could just lock the players in where they cannot play anything besides Bonus Ball but it would not be fair to the players which is what really matters. If a player chooses to stay in Vegas instead of going to an event then it shows that either the pay out for that event is very poor or they just do not want to gamble on laying out serious coin to take a shot to finish top 3 and then sweat maybe getting paid on top of it which is kind of like that saying a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

I know there are people trying to put money in the players pockets, you and Greg Sullivan add good money to events but all these events with added money are not free rolls at the cash, they have entry fees, expenses and so on, for the majority its a losing proposition. We as non pro players do not always get it, we see $10,000 first place if they win, but what if they finish 5th/6th, they probably do not even break even. I cannot imagine living like that, the pressure of having to perform at such a high level knowing if you lose you are broke and just laid out the last of your money to play the event.

This coming year though I think any event in Vegas for pro players will have a better turnout such as the BCAPL pro events since many will be living here and the dates do not conflict it appears. I would love to see Bonus Ball do its season here every year on a set schedule and then more tournaments here in Las Vegas, cheap rooms, flights, more to do for everyone and the players have less expenses for an event because they already live here but that would all make too much sense anyway. Lets just have the next tournament in the Alaskan Bush where people are trapped and cannot do anything but be stuck in a place with little or nothing to do besides one casino such as Derby or Turning Stone which most will agree are terrible locations but great tournaments. It is not rocket science that your league event and APA do so well here in Vegas, people look at coming to the event not just for pool but to have a little vacation and fun.

The players need a salary, guaranteed money to showcase their skills and talent, they have devoted their lives to this game and are mostly broke. I enjoy most games but no one has really figured out how to make money off of pool and still make the pro players a real living at the same time. I think some people out there like to see the players struggle and the game down and in the dumps, the game would not be the same if pool was not this dark shady subculture, some get off on that and being around it. That is why pool players are so approachable too and easily accessible, they will even stay at your home if you let them. You do not see athletes in other sports as accessible to people as pool players, I would say that has something to do with money.

Everyone says the industry is fractured but its really broken and needs change because the current formula does not work except for a few people at the top making money but how does it work for the players? I think if the players told you the real deal without being barred from events or having ill will from promoters then you would be stunned I think, it really would be eye opening. Some think they have a clue but really do not know anything that really is going on but when you talk to players who trust you then you see things from their point of view.

I think certain events the players will choose to play Bonus Ball instead of going to a tournament that does not pay out well so either the prize funds get better to attract players or they do not have the star power. With most events if the player does not finish really high in it they lose money and in these times most cant afford to do that. I know for the fans who go to certain tournaments they will have some disappointment but they can still watch them play but the game will just be Bonus Ball. I say do not hate Bonus Ball, hate the tournaments that cant pay to have top talent there, the players should not have to suffer any longer.

P.S. Sorry for the book but I am sure most will not read it anyway and just post more senseless comments.

vpbb123
11-25-2012, 09:01 PM
Mark, I have always stated that professionals players should not have to pay entry fees! Not pointing fingers at anybody in particular, but if the shoe fits, wear it!

I come from a racing back ground. I pay a small entry fee which basically covers our insurance when someone is hurt or killed! As a racing promoter, i hustled my butt to find corporate advertisers to cover my drivers payout! i hustled to bring in fans! Our payout comes from sponsorship, fans and advertisers.

In Bonus Ball, we had our first tournament based on the same idea! As promoters, we put up a $30,000 added tournament with no entry fee! We got off our asses and found the money and left the players out of the equation. That is how professional players are treated in Canada. Hockey or football, we don't ask them players to pay to play. That is all that I am saying! Great, you added so many thousands of dollars and we wanted to have our season over not to over lap your major tournaments. Larry has paid the price for this.

Give the professionals a break and drop the entry fees and let's see you hustle and find a sponsor to cover this missing cash! That is what promoters need to do! That's what I'd like to see the next TAR podcast about. Not how bad the industry is, or how Bonus Ball construction delays are hurting your TAR events, but what Mark Griffen can do to turn it around! This is not a Bonus Ball representative speaking out, this is Barry Bremner speaking out! I call a spade a spade! It's a free country in Canada and the United States so don't blame us if TAR can't schedule because of us. TAR can have Shane and many other players playing Ten Ball any time you want! I stated you could have our players on their weeks off! You just got five weeks to spread your wealth, have at it!

Barry Bremner, amateur pool player!

dorabelle
11-25-2012, 09:11 PM
"and of course amateur leagues" is an interesting item in that list. Do the BB owners foresee something like the APA in their futures -- pouring money into their pockets like the APA has for Terry Bell and Larry Hubbart for 30 years? Could BB ultimately replace the APA or the BCAPL or some other amateur league in some/many areas?

Every bar is gonna have to buy how many sets of balls? I can't see that being a good time for them.

justadub
11-25-2012, 09:16 PM
Mark, I have always stated that professionals players should not have to pay entry fees! Not pointing fingers at anybody in particular, but if the shoe fits, wear it!

I come from a racing back ground. I pay a small entry fee which basically covers our insurance when someone is hurt or killed! As a racing promoter, i hustled my butt to find corporate advertisers to cover my drivers payout! i hustled to bring in fans! Our payout comes from sponsorship, fans and advertisers.

In Bonus Ball, we had our first tournament based on the same idea! As promoters, we put up a $30,000 added tournament with no entry fee! We got off our asses and found the money and left the players out of the equation. That is how professional players are treated in Canada. Hockey or football, we don't ask them players to pay to play. That is all that I am saying! Great, you added so many thousands of dollars and we wanted to have our season over not to over lap your major tournaments. Larry has paid the price for this.

Give the professionals a break and drop the entry fees and let's see you hustle and find a sponsor to cover this missing cash! That is what promoters need to do! That's what I'd like to see the next TAR podcast about. Not how bad the industry is, or how Bonus Ball construction delays are hurting your TAR events, but what Mark Griffen can do to turn it around! This is not a Bonus Ball representative speaking out, this is Barry Bremner speaking out! I call a spade a spade! It a free country in Canada and the United States so don't blame us if TAR can't schedule because of us. TAR can have Shane and many other players playing Ten Ball any time you want! I stated you could have our players on their weeks off! You just got five weeks to spread your wealth, have at it!

Barry Bremner, amateur pool player!

This thread just got interesting.

punter
11-25-2012, 09:19 PM
There's something about the attitude of some that is a little hard to take. It's a little arrogant to lecture and ignore the efforts of guys that have been working to promote professional pool, all before the first ball is hit in bonus ball. Maybe it's just me, but maybe not. I guess in a year we will see if the cockiness is still there.

vpbb123
11-25-2012, 09:19 PM
Lenny, your so passionate!

Lenny! I know that when you first heard of Bonus Ball you were skeptical! Once you actually play the game and understand it, you like many others, say wow! Bonus Ball is a great pool game!

Excuse Lenny for his rant but it truly is from his heart! We don't wish you sell you on this game with smoke and mirrors! We wish to convince you to just give this game a try! Why? We know how much you will enjoy this strategic and well structured game! Ya, so the season is delayed! Big deal! Hockey is on strike right now but the second the show starts, i'll be cheering for my favourite team! Hang on, settle down, we are bringing you the first ever professional billiard league! Pick your favourite team and follow them on www.wpbl.tv

Kid Dynomite
11-25-2012, 09:25 PM
This thread just got interesting.

Yes Sir!

Talk about some Venom!

I just Subscribed to this one and can't wait for the response. It seems Bonus Ball is looking to take on APA and BCA leagues in the near future if not now!

It appears like a top down approach, get the professionals and the amateurs will follow type thing!!!

KD

dorabelle
11-25-2012, 09:26 PM
The players are getting paid during the delay because they signed a contract.
Revenue is coming from:
PPV
Merch- gonna take a while until people learn about the product
Leagues- gonna take a while too if there is interest.
Sponsors?

It looks like money is only coming in from ppv for a while. Am I missing anything?

Mark Griffin
11-25-2012, 09:31 PM
As far as TAR matches go, its a good opportunity for TAR to get stuff going as it has been awhile since we have seen something. I am not sure how Bonus Ball has affected players going to play considering its up to the players if they want to or not. Two players saying they are booked that weekend can get away from Bonus Ball for that time if they feel its worthwhile. (Lenny, you are correct- but we were trying to avoid conflict with the start of Bonus Ball, because I would like to see it succeed!)

I imagine during these next couple weeks many players will be here in Vegas with lots of free time so you or Justin should make some phone calls and set something up. TAR will save money on expenses of hotel/airfare, the players make some more money and we all get treated to some good matches which we all enjoy. I know your selection is limited mainly because the two players need to be marketable so its worthwhile because you cannot put in two guys that no one really cares to see which i think is the real reason we have seen Shane so many times which I will gladly watch again but some might be ASO (All Shaned Out). I still am pulling for a Shane vs Frost one pocket match. ( I would like to see that match also. But my point was that if we had a little more notice, we could have something in the mix. As it stands now, we probably do not have time because the top players will be traveling to Mosconi Cup next weekend - which probably pushes us to December 22nd. That is what my complaint is about)

I am sure you could promote something quickly (1 week) since the marketing usually goes no further then this site and Facebook along with taking a little time to make a flier. With all the players here too I am sure they will come to sweat it also and maybe get in the booth which would be nice for our ears. I for one do not want to see TAR fade away, I enjoy the matches and have watched nearly all of them. I think people are not seeing the big picture though, if Bonus Ball takes off worldwide then those players become better known and more marketable. Now when you put on a TAR match instead of having a few hundred PPVs you might have several thousand, TAR makes more money and so do the players with better paydays. (I agree with most of your assessment, except see the response in the previous paragraph).

As far as Bonus Ball owing anything to anyone in the industry other than the players, they do not. There is a real reason why the people making money in the industry do not work together which is mainly because it is a business, it should be competitive. If Bonus Ball really wanted to screw other people in the industry they could just lock the players in where they cannot play anything besides Bonus Ball but it would not be fair to the players which is what really matters. If a player chooses to stay in Vegas instead of going to an event then it shows that either the pay out for that event is very poor or they just do not want to gamble on laying out serious coin to take a shot to finish top 3 and then sweat maybe getting paid on top of it which is kind of like that saying a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

I know there are people trying to put money in the players pockets, you and Greg Sullivan add good money to events but all these events with added money are not free rolls at the cash, they have entry fees, expenses and so on, for the majority its a losing proposition. We as non pro players do not always get it, we see $10,000 first place if they win, but what if they finish 5th/6th, they probably do not even break even. I cannot imagine living like that, the pressure of having to perform at such a high level knowing if you lose you are broke and just laid out the last of your money to play the event. (I agree that is a tough way to make a living- and players do deserve better treatment).

This coming year though I think any event in Vegas for pro players will have a better turnout such as the BCAPL pro events since many will be living here and the dates do not conflict it appears. I would love to see Bonus Ball do its season here every year on a set schedule and then more tournaments here in Las Vegas, cheap rooms, flights, more to do for everyone and the players have less expenses for an event because they already live here but that would all make too much sense anyway. Lets just have the next tournament in the Alaskan Bush where people are trapped and cannot do anything but be stuck in a place with little or nothing to do besides one casino such as Derby or Turning Stone which most will agree are terrible locations but great tournaments. It is not rocket science that your league event and APA do so well here in Vegas, people look at coming to the event not just for pool but to have a little vacation and fun.

The players need a salary, guaranteed money to showcase their skills and talent, they have devoted their lives to this game and are mostly broke. I enjoy most games but no one has really figured out how to make money off of pool and still make the pro players a real living at the same time. I think some people out there like to see the players struggle and the game down and in the dumps, the game would not be the same if pool was not this dark shady subculture, some get off on that and being around it. That is why pool players are so approachable too and easily accessible, they will even stay at your home if you let them. You do not see athletes in other sports as accessible to people as pool players, I would say that has something to do with money. (And I said I applaud the efforts of BB for this attempt-but I believe there should be a working relationship between promoters- but I do this because I love the game. It is not about making a lot of money- it s about not losing a lot).

Everyone says the industry is fractured but its really broken and needs change because the current formula does not work except for a few people at the top making money but how does it work for the players? I think if the players told you the real deal without being barred from events or having ill will from promoters then you would be stunned I think, it really would be eye opening. Some think they have a clue but really do not know anything that really is going on but when you talk to players who trust you then you see things from their point of view. (I have encouraged comments from players for improving tournament conditions. I cannot fathom me ever barring any player for them telling me their honest opinion. I have an open door policy and other than seeding from a preferential list, I have not really heard any suggestions that would have any real affect on the event. But I encourage anyone with something to say to call me on my cell 702-835-2000).


I think certain events the players will choose to play Bonus Ball instead of going to a tournament that does not pay out well so either the prize funds get better to attract players or they do not have the star power. With most events if the player does not finish really high in it they lose money and in these times most cant afford to do that. I know for the fans who go to certain tournaments they will have some disappointment but they can still watch them play but the game will just be Bonus Ball. I say do not hate Bonus Ball, hate the tournaments that cant pay to have top talent there, the players should not have to suffer any longer. (I don't hate BB, I applaud the efforts and hope they are successful).


P.S. Sorry for the book but I am sure most will not read it anyway and just post more senseless comments.

Lenny, thanks for your thoughts and moments. We are not that far apart on our opinions. I ONLY stated a little notice of the delay would have shown some consideration for others in the same industry.

I tried calling you earlier today and you were not available.

Wishing everyone the best-(and please hope others quit twisting my complaint into something different).

Mark Griffin

dorabelle
11-25-2012, 09:32 PM
Are there any clauses in these contracts that don't allow players to be on other streams? Like the wpba? Competition (or similar) clause?

justadub
11-25-2012, 09:37 PM
Lenny, thanks for your thoughts and moments. We are not that far apart on our opinions. I ONLY stated a little notice of the delay would have shown some consideration for others in the same industry.

I tried calling you earlier today and you were not available.

Wishing everyone the best-(and please hope others quit twisting my complaint into something different).

Mark Griffin

This, ladies and gentlemen, is called "taking the high road."

A lost art, these days. Especially on the AZB forums.

Stay classy, Mark. :p

dorabelle
11-25-2012, 09:41 PM
That is a great point. I think that whoever is in charge of promotions and marketing at Bonus Ball needs to arrange Bonus Ball exhibitions for free at poolrooms. It is a cheap way to promote the game and get people exposed to it. I think every player should be promoting it in the city their team is representing to start and do stuff at the major rooms of every city.

Your gonna have to enter every bar. Most players are league players in bars. Your gonna have to convince bar owners to buy bonus balls.

tommyceilings
11-25-2012, 09:41 PM
Hey Fatboy,

Don't worry man, there are old people, and people with bad credit in CA to open a new business for.

It's all good. I'm a bit upset that they didn't consult with you also, you have the in's and outs of who's who and which people are the movers out there, who is just spinning their wheels.

When you get back out to Palm Beach, we have to meet up for dinner.

county inspectors are brutal in Vegas now, I know I had a few beef's with them. Because 80% were laid off the survivors take any new file(new biz applicant) and work it to death at the expense of the new business to cover their asses so they have something to do. They have f*cked with Larry to death on this, its shameful as Vegas is dyeing, its nearly impossible to make $$ there and then when someone does come along with a real business they get harassed by inspectors who are needlessly making it impossible to open a biz so they can keep they inspector job. Thats what it all boils down to, ZERO to do with pool.


when I moved to Vegas 20 years ago, you could open a biz easy and the local economy was booming, thats why so many people including myself moved to Vegas to open up Biz's. Now its worse than Ca or Ny in Vegas and the local economy suffers needlessly because of jack-off heavy handed inspectors. Its all but impossible to get a "Certificate of occupancy" for any biz nowadays. Because when you do the inspectors lose their action soon as they sign off, so to keep it going they keep busting balls over nothing. This has destroyed Vegas. And is Why I left, I'm just selling off empty buildings to people who think they are stealing them, LOL, I lost my ass-and I'm not the last guy to lose $$$ in Vegas.

I told Larry IMO Vegas was a poor choice for BB, I think Atlanta would have been the smart play. he would get a better gate at the matches, lower rent and less Govt harassment. I only lived and did biz there for 19 years,


thats whats really going on....really:angry:

vpbb123
11-25-2012, 09:41 PM
Of course forming amateur leagues will be happening in the future! Later for sure, but I personally guarantee you, I will form amateur leagues. Never said we were only going to share this great game with the professionals only! I have already developed software that will make running a Bonus Ball league a snap! Will i try and be an APA league or a BCA league? No. I will not. I will deliver our game and our league! It will never be a bar league! Worry not about that!

dorabelle
11-25-2012, 09:44 PM
Of course forming amateur leagues will be happening in the future! Later for sure, but I personally guarantee you, I will form amateur leagues. Never said we were only going to share this great game with the professionals only! I have already developed software that will make running a Bonus Ball league a snap! Will i try and be an APA league or a BCA league? No. I will not. I will deliver our game and our league! It will never be a bar league! Worry not about that!

Are there non competition clauses or anything like that in the contracts with the pros?

tommyceilings
11-25-2012, 09:53 PM
Not only that, but each week taking out all the balls to switch the balls to BB ball set. And do Diamond and Valley tables know to kick out the balls or not, plus isn't it a spot up balls game, so unlocked tables??

Every bar is gonna have to buy how many sets of balls? I can't see that being a good time for them.

D_Lewis
11-25-2012, 09:58 PM
It will never be a bar league! Worry not about that!

Not only that, but each week taking out all the balls to switch the balls to BB ball set. And do Diamond and Valley tables know to kick out the balls or not, plus isn't it a spot up balls game, so unlocked tables??

Snip snip.

vpbb123
11-25-2012, 10:04 PM
No, there is no competition clause! Not as long as we don't feel the need for that! I am from a country that believes in free enterprise. If a team is scheduled to play, we expect the player to play. You don't see NFL players leaving the NFL to play games in the CFL.

However, we don't see ourselves as the NFL. We are a new league, we are a team league and we are open to our players missing some matches if they so desire! A replacement player will be found for that show! Having said that, i can't see why a player would want to lose a guaranteed pay check to pay an entry fee and travel and lodging unless they were very confident they coulld make the top four! Am i right or wrong?


.

dorabelle
11-25-2012, 10:06 PM
No, there is no competition clause! Not as long as we don't feel the need for that! I am from a country that believes in free enterprise. If a team is scheduled to play, we expect the player to play. You don't see NFL players leaving the NFL to play games in the CFL.

However, we don't see ourselves as the NFL. We are a new league, we are a team league and we are open to our players missing some matches if they so desire! A replacement player will be found for that show! Having said that, i can't see why a player would want to lose a guaranteed pay check to pay an entry fee and travel and lodging unless they were very confident they coulld make the top four! Am i right or wrong?


.
Or if they have a bigger money match? Well that's good news. Hope you guys keep it that way.
That being said this could impact major events.
Is everyone gonna be playing bonus ball instead of going to DCC?

Mark Griffin
11-25-2012, 10:12 PM
Mark, I have always stated that professionals players should not have to pay entry fees! Not pointing fingers at anybody in particular, but if the shoe fits, wear it! (You seem to be getting confrontational and that is not necessary. I also believe your comments show that you do not understand the makeup of the American pool player - or whomever plays in the events.)

I come from a racing back ground. I pay a small entry fee which basically covers our insurance when someone is hurt or killed! As a racing promoter, i hustled my butt to find corporate advertisers to cover my drivers payout! i hustled to bring in fans! Our payout comes from sponsorship, fans and advertisers.

In Bonus Ball, we had our first tournament based on the same idea! As promoters, we put up a $30,000 added tournament with no entry fee! We got off our asses and found the money and left the players out of the equation. That is how professional players are treated in Canada. Hockey or football, we don't ask them players to pay to play. That is all that I am saying! Great, you added so many thousands of dollars and we wanted to have our season over not to over lap your major tournaments. Larry has paid the price for this. (Again, this is NOT about Larry and him paying the price. I want this to work for Larry. BUT a little notice of the delay would have gone a long ways to show concern for the players and friendly competitors. I do not consider BB a competitor, but you might. I just want pool to be promoted properly. BTW - you do realize I went out of my way to get the studio 8 tables to help you get the Certificate of Occupancy, right? They were delivered on Wednesday - which was on very short notice).

Give the professionals a break and drop the entry fees and let's see you hustle and find a sponsor to cover this missing cash! (What missing cash? We are adding the $25,000 to the 10-Ball. IF we did not charge an entry fee we would have 1,000 people trying to play in it. When YOU make this kind of statement, you are causing people to wonder if you know what your are talking about.) That is what promoters need to do! That's what I'd like to see the next TAR podcast about. Not how bad the industry is, or how Bonus Ball construction delays are hurting your TAR events, but what Mark Griffen can do to turn it around! (If you only knew what we do! Do not confuse me with other 'promoters' that do not perform). This is not a Bonus Ball representative speaking out, this is Barry Bremner speaking out! (I am glad you clarified that because Larry has shown me a good degree of respect. I think I have earned that because I have treated him with respect.) I call a spade a spade! It's a free country in Canada and the United States so don't blame us if TAR can't schedule because of us. TAR can have Shane and many other players playing Ten Ball any time you want! I stated you could have our players on their weeks off! You just got five weeks to spread your wealth, have at it! (It is too bad your post comes across so arrogant. I have said many times I hope Bonus Ball works out. But you seem to be trying to make this a personal assault. That is not good for anyone. Perhaps walking in the trenches a few years will build up your character.)

Barry Bremner, amateur pool player!


I have put my comments in the paragraph.
I think you should pay attention to the style that Lenny uses - it is much more professional.

Mark Griffin

dorabelle
11-25-2012, 10:24 PM
Vpbb123
I call a spade a spade! It's a free country in Canada and the United States so don't blame us if TAR can't schedule because of us. TAR can have Shane and many other players playing Ten Ball any time you want! I stated you could have our players on their weeks off! You just got five weeks to spread your wealth, have at it!

You could have "OUR PLAYERS" on their weeks off. So the Pros priority is Bonus Ball? What happens to them if they make some other event their priority?

Lumocolor
11-25-2012, 10:55 PM
Vpbb123


You could have "OUR PLAYERS" on their weeks off. So the Pros priority is Bonus Ball? What happens to them if they make some other event their priority?

I think that if players make another event a priority over bonus ball that it would mean that pool is moving up in the world.

So far, as far as i know the only player to turn down the guarantied money is Shane, many would also say that he's one of the few players who makes money playing pool, hell darren appleton is selling broken cues, cases and maybe if you ask nicely a kidney in the for sale section...lol.

JCIN
11-26-2012, 12:28 AM
We have followed the letter of the law to the rule and as Fatboy states...it has been insane. Nevertheless, it's a construction delay that is out of Larry's hands! The players respect that he chose to give them some Christmas money. Sure, it is disappointing as hell for Larry to have to postpone after believing that all was perfect in a imperfect world. Like I said before, our professional football team has a new arena being built and it is now a year delayed and a few million over budget.

I listen to Mark and Justin cry time and time again on the pod casts about the sad state of the industry but at least Larry is actually trying to do something for the professionals! I say the same thing as them and Justin is ready to crucify me. I call a spade a spade. We need a professional league that does not ask to take $500 out of everyone's pocket and then letting them to play. Forget the game (which plays absolutely fantastic I might add) forget the construction delays, this is all about treating the professional players with the respect due to them.

Trust me, if the players would have begged Larry not to play the game of Bonus Ball, Larry would not be playing Bonus Ball. The real deal here is that Bonus Ball is the game they want to play, at least the majority of them. There are probably a few pretenders out there but they are quickly going to learn that this is a shot makers game, a thinkers game, the men will weed out the boys!

As far as the statement some players don't know the rules...how can you call yourself a professional and come to camp not knowing the rules? If this is true then this delay is heaven sent! Players like Appleton, Archer, Morris and Deuel, just to mention a few, that do know the rules will eat you alive! When I go to a new race track, you better believe I know the rules and play by those rules. It's called pride and professionalism.

So we cry and I want to crucify you?

Sweet.

All I want you to do is meet a date or make it known when you won't. No different than any other promoter. How do you not know you are month behind schedule on opening? The place isnt finished and just waiting on inspection. Its still a construction site.

I realize you are the hype man and do not make any decisions so its nothing personal. I also realize you are used to hearing nothing but positive things from people hoping to get some money while its flowing so views from someone not on the company draw can sound harsh but I have no desire to "crucify" you or anyone else on your team.

Through its lack of communication Bonus Ball is making things worse not better at the moment. Instead of some canned statement about how amazing a game its going to be and how we have the coolest purple lights in the new studio you guys might just simply look around and say "Well the bathrooms are not finished, the floors not done and wont be for weeks....lets send out a PR ASAP explaining the delay out of simple professional courtesy." Instead of just bumping dates a month at a time at the last minute.

JCIN
11-26-2012, 01:05 AM
As far as TAR matches go, its a good opportunity for TAR to get stuff going as it has been awhile since we have seen something. I am not sure how Bonus Ball has affected players going to play considering its up to the players if they want to or not. Two players saying they are booked that weekend can get away from Bonus Ball for that time if they feel its worthwhile.

I imagine during these next couple weeks many players will be here in Vegas with lots of free time so you or Justin should make some phone calls and set something up. TAR will save money on expenses of hotel/airfare, the players make some more money and we all get treated to some good matches which we all enjoy. I know your selection is limited mainly because the two players need to be marketable so its worthwhile because you cannot put in two guys that no one really cares to see which i think is the real reason we have seen Shane so many times which I will gladly watch again but some might be ASO (All Shaned Out). I still am pulling for a Shane vs Frost one pocket match.

I am sure you could promote something quickly (1 week) since the marketing usually goes no further then this site and Facebook along with taking a little time to make a flier. With all the players here too I am sure they will come to sweat it also and maybe get in the booth which would be nice for our ears. I for one do not want to see TAR fade away, I enjoy the matches and have watched nearly all of them. I think people are not seeing the big picture though, if Bonus Ball takes off worldwide then those players become better known and more marketable. Now when you put on a TAR match instead of having a few hundred PPVs you might have several thousand, TAR makes more money and so do the players with better paydays.

As far as Bonus Ball owing anything to anyone in the industry other than the players, they do not. There is a real reason why the people making money in the industry do not work together which is mainly because it is a business, it should be competitive. If Bonus Ball really wanted to screw other people in the industry they could just lock the players in where they cannot play anything besides Bonus Ball but it would not be fair to the players which is what really matters. If a player chooses to stay in Vegas instead of going to an event then it shows that either the pay out for that event is very poor or they just do not want to gamble on laying out serious coin to take a shot to finish top 3 and then sweat maybe getting paid on top of it which is kind of like that saying a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

I know there are people trying to put money in the players pockets, you and Greg Sullivan add good money to events but all these events with added money are not free rolls at the cash, they have entry fees, expenses and so on, for the majority its a losing proposition. We as non pro players do not always get it, we see $10,000 first place if they win, but what if they finish 5th/6th, they probably do not even break even. I cannot imagine living like that, the pressure of having to perform at such a high level knowing if you lose you are broke and just laid out the last of your money to play the event.

This coming year though I think any event in Vegas for pro players will have a better turnout such as the BCAPL pro events since many will be living here and the dates do not conflict it appears. I would love to see Bonus Ball do its season here every year on a set schedule and then more tournaments here in Las Vegas, cheap rooms, flights, more to do for everyone and the players have less expenses for an event because they already live here but that would all make too much sense anyway. Lets just have the next tournament in the Alaskan Bush where people are trapped and cannot do anything but be stuck in a place with little or nothing to do besides one casino such as Derby or Turning Stone which most will agree are terrible locations but great tournaments. It is not rocket science that your league event and APA do so well here in Vegas, people look at coming to the event not just for pool but to have a little vacation and fun.

The players need a salary, guaranteed money to showcase their skills and talent, they have devoted their lives to this game and are mostly broke. I enjoy most games but no one has really figured out how to make money off of pool and still make the pro players a real living at the same time. I think some people out there like to see the players struggle and the game down and in the dumps, the game would not be the same if pool was not this dark shady subculture, some get off on that and being around it. That is why pool players are so approachable too and easily accessible, they will even stay at your home if you let them. You do not see athletes in other sports as accessible to people as pool players, I would say that has something to do with money.

Everyone says the industry is fractured but its really broken and needs change because the current formula does not work except for a few people at the top making money but how does it work for the players? I think if the players told you the real deal without being barred from events or having ill will from promoters then you would be stunned I think, it really would be eye opening. Some think they have a clue but really do not know anything that really is going on but when you talk to players who trust you then you see things from their point of view.

I think certain events the players will choose to play Bonus Ball instead of going to a tournament that does not pay out well so either the prize funds get better to attract players or they do not have the star power. With most events if the player does not finish really high in it they lose money and in these times most cant afford to do that. I know for the fans who go to certain tournaments they will have some disappointment but they can still watch them play but the game will just be Bonus Ball. I say do not hate Bonus Ball, hate the tournaments that cant pay to have top talent there, the players should not have to suffer any longer.

P.S. Sorry for the book but I am sure most will not read it anyway and just post more senseless comments.

We see eye to eye on most things Lenny. My biggest problem is the players I have talked to can't give me any confirmed dates because they don't know anything for sure. I have been doing this shit for a minute. I know whats involved getting two guys in the same place at the same time so when I say BB has created scheduling problems due to lack of communication I'm not just making things up.

When all the guys are in Vegas and everyone figures out what is really going to happen it could make doing some TAR things easier but frankly there are only about five or six players in BB that work for what we do so its not some giant windfall for TAR.

The biggest problem is that you know WAY more about whats going on than the players. Part of that is you actually care to know whats going on but the other part is no one on the BB team is putting out info in a timely solid manner based on the players I am talking to.

KoolKat9Lives
11-26-2012, 02:19 AM
Tough industry. Tougher than most.

And more % passionate people involved.

So much.... and so little at stake.

Fast Lenny
11-26-2012, 02:30 AM
Lenny, thanks for your thoughts and moments. We are not that far apart on our opinions. I ONLY stated a little notice of the delay would have shown some consideration for others in the same industry.

I tried calling you earlier today and you were not available.

Wishing everyone the best-(and please hope others quit twisting my complaint into something different).

Mark Griffin

Mark, you know I appreciate all you do for pool. You have been in the industry for a long time and me just a few years so our viewpoints are a little different but that is okay, does not make me right about anything because I am probably wrong a good deal of the time but too stubborn and a little stupid to realize that. My little contribution to the game is a drop in the bucket compared to what you have done and I expect to see you in the hall of fame for your effort and love of the game.

I just really want the best for the players and I know you cannot just put up $25,000 every month and let the players free roll at it because that money has to come somewhere. You can get that money with the right person out there getting sponsorship dollars and getting a cut of it, someone who is not paid salary but a percentage will be able to it if ambitious enough, well spoken and personable who actually lays out exactly what a big sponsor will get in return. Perhaps you have someone on the CSI team who does that but if not it might be a great idea to get someone with experience to go out there.

I really think this years BCAPL will be the best one yet with the venue change and all the players being in town already. They only have to pay entrees and no other expenses like hotel/airfare being in town already, the players I spoke to are excited about it and hopefully more tournaments popping up. I do hope that you have more pro events during the Bonus Ball down time because they should be a great success. I do also hope we have more TAR matches because with the challenge matches the players can make some good money which even though I like gambling there is too much crap involved with it.

I think this coming year will be a good one for pro pool in the US. I am not delusional thinking Bonus Ball is the answer, it could totally not work out because for it to be successful much must go right. You can have the greatest thing since sliced bread and if its not presented and marketed then how does anyone get hooked on it? Pool is way under marketed because not many people higher a professional marketing person or team to get out there and sell to sponsors outside of pool. Perhaps pool needs a sports agent to pull some sponsors, they do work off percentages so they might get out there and make it happen. One thing is for sure it needs to attract more then just us diehards here on the forums to really work and make money to support this venture and pro pool.

I do not know if this interest anyone but I know many on here have run or do run successful businesses, its a good read I saw awhile back that makes a ton of sense for seeking pool sponsors by looking at pool as a product and something worthwhile for investors/sponsors to get involved in. http://www.inc.com/guides/present-your-business-plan.html

Luxury
11-26-2012, 02:40 AM
Finally a thread that will get Bonus Ball a ton of attention so that when the season starts, people will be checking it out. There is no bad press.

Fast Lenny
11-26-2012, 02:51 AM
We see eye to eye on most things Lenny. My biggest problem is the players I have talked to can't give me any confirmed dates because they don't know anything for sure. I have been doing this shit for a minute. I know whats involved getting two guys in the same place at the same time so when I say BB has created scheduling problems due to lack of communication I'm not just making things up.

When all the guys are in Vegas and everyone figures out what is really going to happen it could make doing some TAR things easier but frankly there are only about five or six players in BB that work for what we do so its not some giant windfall for TAR.

The biggest problem is that you know WAY more about whats going on than the players. Part of that is you actually care to know whats going on but the other part is no one on the BB team is putting out info in a timely solid manner based on the players I am talking to.

I think the players will get settled in here soon enough and things should go smoother for everyone. It is a bit overwhelming going into something new for all of us involved but this is good for pool and the players if it all works out. I think some players have better ideas of what is going on from being here a few months ago as we all sat in a board room and could openly discuss things. The new guys so to speak are not quite sure about what is really going on but they will know a great deal more tomorrow about everything when we have a meeting with everyone.

One thing people do not understand is these guys are under so much pressure to perform playing this game because if they do not win they do not eat which is why players make savers and we see some of the negative sides of pool. When I hear people say they would not make savers and this or that you know they are recreational players who have money but if you really need the money which most of the pros do it happens.

I cannot wait to see this game played with positive happy pool players without all the negativity and moves people pull that sometimes are desperate because the rent money is on the line. We need to get away from all that BS and I hope they do not let certain players act like they have in the past although it might make for some great TV moments if its not overdone like in the Earl and Shane 10 footer match.

If the players have money hopefully that negative tension will not be as present and attitudes will change even when they are playing TAR matches or tournament matches anywhere. I do hope to see a TAR match soon, hopefully I will not be tied up and can come and sweat it. A round robin might be an interesting idea like Accu-stats just did with the Make it Happen, very cool event they had that seemed to be a success since they are having another.

ChrisBanks
11-26-2012, 03:01 AM
I think the players will get settled in here soon enough and things should go smoother for everyone. It is a bit overwhelming going into something new for all of us involved but this is good for pool and the players if it all works out. I think some players have better ideas of what is going on from being here a few months ago as we all sat in a board room and could openly discuss things. The new guys so to speak are not quite sure about what is really going on but they will know a great deal more tomorrow about everything when we have a meeting with everyone.

One thing people do not understand is these guys are under so much pressure to perform playing this game because if they do not win they do not eat which is why players make savers and we see some of the negative sides of pool. When I hear people say they would not make savers and this or that you know they are recreational players who have money but if you really need the money which most of the pros do it happens.

I cannot wait to see this game played with positive happy pool players without all the negativity and moves people pull that sometimes are desperate because the rent money is on the line. We need to get away from all that BS and I hope they do not let certain players act like they have in the past although it might make for some great TV moments if its not overdone like in the Earl and Shane 10 footer match.

If the players have money hopefully that negative tension will not be as present and attitudes will change even when they are playing TAR matches or tournament matches anywhere. I do hope to see a TAR match soon, hopefully I will not be tied up and can come and sweat it. A round robin might be an interesting idea like Accu-stats just did with the Make it Happen, very cool event they had that seemed to be a success since they are having another.

I do hope the pros can survive playing pool, but I did watch two matches of bonus ball on youtube, and I will be honest in that I do not understand what makes bonus ball a great game.

Fast Lenny
11-26-2012, 03:22 AM
I do hope the pros can survive playing pool, but I did watch two matches of bonus ball on youtube, and I will be honest in that I do not understand what makes bonus ball a great game.

That is totally understandable as many feel that way about lots of games, I personally get a little bored with watching rotation games and enjoy one pocket which is the least popular game besides straight pool and banks.

JB Cases
11-26-2012, 03:59 AM
I am figuring around a $2,000,000 per season nut for this thing. If they dont really expect to make anything for the first couple of seasons thats starts to add up to real money.

PPV wont even pay production costs. Nothing in pool has ever had a 1000 unique paid PPV. If Bonus Ball breaks that record two times over and gets 2000 paid per week it still doesn't cover player payroll (not even counting the million dollar prize fund) TV is the only viable option I can see to ever come close to the kind of money required to make it viable long term.

If you get TV then you can sell merchandise and advertising at a level that may begin to offset the costs of doing the thing. Owning the whole game lock and barrel is an interesting approach and probably pitches well to investors. Its been said the main focus is going after non-pool fans which sounds great in theory, you just have to compete with every other entertainment industry on earth.

I'll be damned if I can see how it works but then I am far from a good businessman so that doesnt really mean much. In the grand scheme of things I guess people shoot four or five million on small business ideas all the time in this country.

Well, they could produce content and sell that content to any network willing to buy it.

Don't forget that the WPT was rejected by just about every major channel including ESPN. Finally the Travel Channel took a shot and the rest is history.

To me I see so many upsides to this with all the talent captive for months. I don't know what all they have planned but I know what I would do if I had so many players and millions to spend.

JB Cases
11-26-2012, 04:03 AM
I do hope the pros can survive playing pool, but I did watch two matches of bonus ball on youtube, and I will be honest in that I do not understand what makes bonus ball a great game.

You don't see the skill needed to play this game at a high level? I mean it's got elements of every game in it and you need to be really good all at aspects of the game to play it well.

It's got great offense, great defense, banking, kicking, safety play, 14.1 break balls, strategy, serious shot making, I mean I don't see much that is not appealing as a player.

If I walked into a pool room and I saw people playing this game for money I'd be all over it wanting to get in on it.

ChrisBanks
11-26-2012, 04:47 AM
You don't see the skill needed to play this game at a high level? I mean it's got elements of every game in it and you need to be really good all at aspects of the game to play it well.

It's got great offense, great defense, banking, kicking, safety play, 14.1 break balls, strategy, serious shot making, I mean I don't see much that is not appealing as a player.

If I walked into a pool room and I saw people playing this game for money I'd be all over it wanting to get in on it.

I'll go back and watch again. I am a lover of all the games, even 8-ball (but not so much).

JAM
11-26-2012, 05:01 AM
I'm trying to remain positive about Bonus Ball. I remember the storm before the IPT launch, so I'm going to try to give this entity the benefit of the doubt.

But there's a 500-pound gorilla that lurks in the background that remains mute. I have kept mum about it, but now that I've heard from three different sources about it, I'm going to bring it to the fore on this thread and see how it's handled.

It is rumored that Bonus Ball owes money for services rendered to Canadian Jim Wych (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Wych) and has not paid him, at least as of the date of this writing. This doesn't set a good precedent for Bonus Ball and how it pays for services rendered.

Jim and Billy depicted below.

dorabelle
11-26-2012, 05:03 AM
So no ones gonna be at the DCC because they are playing BB
What if this thing damages major events until they find out they can't make money at it. How are you generating income again? PPV?

ChrisBanks
11-26-2012, 05:07 AM
So no ones gonna be at the DCC because they are playing BB
What if this thing damages major events until they find out they can't make money at it. How are you generating income again? PPV?

you're wise to consider that.

JCIN
11-26-2012, 05:12 AM
Well, they could produce content and sell that content to any network willing to buy it.

Don't forget that the WPT was rejected by just about every major channel including ESPN. Finally the Travel Channel took a shot and the rest is history.

To me I see so many upsides to this with all the talent captive for months. I don't know what all they have planned but I know what I would do if I had so many players and millions to spend.

I really don't think the WPT is apples to apples here. They made TV after Moneymaker changed the world on ESPN. Plus WPT prize funds come from player entries. Its two completely different models. A better comparison would be the UFC and their initial deal with Spike. They used a reality show (that they funded entirely) to get in the door and then show their competitions as a compliment to it. This approach seems like a no brainer for BB. 36 players in Vegas for six months. Thats entertainment.

I do agree that having all those players in one place for that long provides some interesting opportunities along with some interesting challenges. I guess my point is why not have TV from the beginning with that type of budget instead of the build it and then sell it approach? With the budget they claim to be working with lots of things are possible. Building a full grown 12 team league and facility seems like they are doing it backwards to me. I would spend the money on getting TV first with a smaller footprint and then build out. Take a page out of the UFC playbook and shoot a show to get you in the door first. Of course there is still a very good chance that wouldnt work.

I can see BB creating something cool and interesting if things fall right. A lot of the concepts make a lot sense but the overall execution up to this point leaves me scratching my head how this thing survives under its own weight. It not only has to break even but generate profit to survive at the funding levels stated thus far. Eventually those investors are going to stop feeding the beast.

My concern is that all the flopping around doesnt screw up things any worse than they already are. Its the same old story though. Someone throws some money around with a random murky plan with no real visible plan for financial viability and everyone loses their mind. All that said....in the end it comes down to something my grandfather used to say:

"Son...thats their chicken. They can fvck it however they want."

JCIN
11-26-2012, 05:18 AM
I'm trying to remain positive about Bonus Ball. I remember the storm before the IPT launch, so I'm going to try to give this entity the benefit of the doubt.

But there's a 500-pound gorilla that lurks in the background that remains mute. I have kept mum about it, but now that I've heard from three different sources about it, I'm going to bring it to the fore on this thread and see how it's handled.

It is rumored that Bonus Ball owes money for services rendered to Canadian Jim Wych (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Wych) and has not paid him, at least as of the date of this writing. This doesn't set a good precedent for Bonus Ball and how it pays for services rendered.

Jim and Billy depicted below.

http://kelevra23.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/success-kid-meme-generator-boom-goes-the-dynamite-87d58f.jpg?w=510

This thread just became a fifty pager.

Johnnyt
11-26-2012, 06:50 AM
I think most of the people writing in this thread should add "and I approved this message". Johnnyt

dorabelle
11-26-2012, 07:12 AM
What would the mosconi cup look like if BB wasn't delayed? Would mosconi have lost half it's players?

Black-Balled
11-26-2012, 07:30 AM
Am I the only one overcome by sadness that BB no longer is short for me?

JCIN
11-26-2012, 07:37 AM
Am I the only one overcome by sadness that BB no longer is short for me?

You, Barry Berhman and Bonus Ball.

Maybe we need to add roman numerals.

You will always be BBI to me buddy.

JAM
11-26-2012, 07:48 AM
I hope the pro players can earn as much as they can with Bonus Ball -- while they can.

I'm sorry, but this has shades of IPT written all over it. When IPT came to the fore, everybody -- just like now with Bonus Ball -- was excited at the amount of money being poured into it, to the tune of at least 5- to $6 million by my estimation, maybe 10.

Without a way to turn a profit, Bonus Ball will end up in the same spot as the IPT. Enjoy it while it's happening, though. It is exciting.

Sooner or later, the purse strings of Bonus Ball will realize that this is just like feed the monkey and watch him sh*t. I wonder how many millions it will take before this realization comes to the fore.

Meanwhile, congratulations to each and every pro player involved. I'm happy to see them finally earn a decent paycheck. Being in Las Vegas, though, I hope they can hang onto their money and not lose it all due to the traditional Vegas distractions.

JCIN
11-26-2012, 08:16 AM
What would the mosconi cup look like if BB wasn't delayed? Would mosconi have lost half it's players?

Nope.

As I understand the broad strokes any player can skip a week they just have to have a sub play in their spot. They don't get paid for that week though the sub does. Based on the schedule on the website not all teams play every week. Early on it looks like teams have a bye week. No clue how the new start date affects things.

IMO the biggest winners of this structure are, for lack of a better term, the second tier players. A guy who may not take top five very often in open events will make more with Bonus Ball. A guy who is a threat to win anything he enters not so much. So it might be in his interest to play the points events ($25K added). But if he does then how does that affect the team? Plus Matchroom uses points events to pick for Mosconi. Its an interesting dynamic.

For all the money being paid no one but the first or second place is going to really hit a lick. ALLEGEDLY (no I wont reveal my source) third place ends up paying $32K total for the season if he plays all 22 weeks plus the playoffs. Second is $42K and winners get $62K. That includes weekly salary and prize fund and is before taxes. So its decent money and a good opportunity but its not life changing. Considering travel cost or paying for a second residence in Vegas plus the time commitment it makes sense for some guys and is a gamble for others. Matchroom is still going to get who they want each December IMO.

vpbb123
11-26-2012, 08:53 AM
Originally Posted by vpbb123 View Post
Mark, I have always stated that professionals players should not have to pay entry fees! Not pointing fingers at anybody in particular, but if the shoe fits, wear it! (You seem to be getting confrontational and that is not necessary. I also believe your comments show that you do not understand the makeup of the American pool player - or whomever plays in the events.)(What is confrontational about saying professional players should not have to pay entry fees? It is what I believe in.)

I come from a racing back ground. I pay a small entry fee which basically covers our insurance when someone is hurt or killed! As a racing promoter, i hustled my butt to find corporate advertisers to cover my drivers payout! I hustled to bring in fans! Our payout comes from sponsorship, fans and advertisers.

In Bonus Ball, we had our first tournament based on the same idea! As promoters, we put up a $30,000 added tournament with no entry fee! We got off our asses and found the money and left the players out of the equation. That is how professional players are treated in Canada. Hockey or football, we don't ask them players to pay to play. That is all that I am saying! Great, you added so many thousands of dollars and we wanted to have our season over not to over lap your major tournaments. Larry has paid the price for this. (Again, this is NOT about Larry and him paying the price. I want this to work for Larry. BUT a little notice of the delay would have gone a long ways to show concern for the players and friendly competitors. I do not consider BB a competitor, but you might. I just want pool to be promoted properly. BTW - you do realize I went out of my way to get the studio 8 tables to help you get the Certificate of Occupancy, right? They were delivered on Wednesday - which was on very short notice).(The players were scheduled to come a week in advance for a training camp. They came as scheduled. You did a great thing by giving Larry those tables, I saw the bill.)

Give the professionals a break and drop the entry fees and let's see you hustle and find a sponsor to cover this missing cash! (What missing cash? We are adding the $25,000 to the 10-Ball. IF we did not charge an entry fee we would have 1,000 people trying to play in it. When YOU make this kind of statement, you are causing people to wonder if you know what your are talking about.)(I do know what Im talking about. I found sponsorship money for years. If you did not notice our first professional tournament had Wendy's, Canad Inns and about 8 other corporate companies that supported that event)

That is what promoters need to do! That's what I'd like to see the next TAR podcast about. Not how bad the industry is, or how Bonus Ball construction delays are hurting your TAR events, but what Mark Griffen can do to turn it around! (If you only knew what we do! Do not confuse me with other 'promoters' that do not perform). (I know very well what you do, I have given you lot's of money to your BCA pool league over the years. I appreciate the work it takes to run tournaments, I promoted the most successful Eight Ball tournament to ever last in Winnipeg. It is still filled to capacity, week after week, to this day!)

This is not a Bonus Ball representative speaking out, this is Barry Bremner speaking out! (I am glad you clarified that because Larry has shown me a good degree of respect. I think I have earned that because I have treated him with respect.)(I am speaking my mind and that's what a forum is for. You have never spoke your mind, huh? I hear it all the time on your podcasts. You are never afraid to bash APA, Bonus Ball or anything else if you can and you have.)

I call a spade a spade! It's a free country in Canada and the United States so don't blame us if TAR can't schedule because of us. TAR can have Shane and many other players playing Ten Ball any time you want! I stated you could have our players on their weeks off! You just got five weeks to spread your wealth, have at it! (It is too bad your post comes across so arrogant. I have said many times I hope Bonus Ball works out. But you seem to be trying to make this a personal assault. That is not good for anyone. Perhaps walking in the trenches a few years will build up your character.)(It is not personal but it is my opinion, if the shoe fits... you tell me why you hope Bonus Ball works out, this will be interesting.)

Here is why I hope the WPBL works out. There will be matches that I can watch in a team format that is not ran once a year by Barry Hearns. I will be able to follow my favorite team week to week. I love statistics. I love seeing who is the actual top scoring player in the league. I like seeing which player is improving and which team will end up the champion. I want to see other amateur players that quit leagues once they hit a certain level come back to pool and play this strategic and well structured game. I want to see other amateur players learn this game and play it because I like to see the smile when they discover just how good the game plays! www.wpbl.tv

This post was a general statement on why I don't believe professional players should be paying large entry fees. I realize that entry fees are necessary in amateur tournaments. This post is my opinion and not meant to please everyone that the shoe fits.

Barry Bremner, amateur pool player!

D_Lewis
11-26-2012, 08:54 AM
Nope.

As I understand the broad strokes any player can skip a week they just have to have a sub play in their spot. They don't get paid for that week though the sub does. Based on the schedule on the website not all teams play every week. Early on it looks like teams have a bye week. No clue how the new start date affects things.

IMO the biggest winners of this structure are, for lack of a better term, the second tier players. A guy who may not take top five very often in open events will make more with Bonus Ball. A guy who is a threat to win anything he enters not so much. So it might be in his interest to play the points events ($25K added). But if he does then how does that affect the team? Plus Matchroom uses points events to pick for Mosconi. Its an interesting dynamic.

For all the money being paid no one but the first or second place is going to really hit a lick. ALLEGEDLY (no I wont reveal my source) third place ends up paying $32K total for the season if he plays all 22 weeks plus the playoffs. Second is $42K and winners get $62K. That includes weekly salary and prize fund and is before taxes. So its decent money and a good opportunity but its not life changing. Considering travel cost or paying for a second residence in Vegas plus the time commitment it makes sense for some guys and is a gamble for others. Matchroom is still going to get who they want each December IMO.

Of the players listed on the Bonus Ball rosters (I havent checked, just was curious) how many of them made $26,000 last year? (keeping in mind Bonus Ball is scheduled for only 26 weeks, so its only 6 months) I know players like Darren or Shane make good money every year, Im sure they can also write off the travel cost if they pay taxes on their winnings (not my business either)

If the players were smart, (which rarely happens) they'd take their guaranteed income (JOB) and be happy with it. Us common folk, who have to grind out 40,50,60,70 etc hours a week (maybe you dont, but I do) do it because we want guaranteed money.

JAM
11-26-2012, 09:08 AM
(What is confrontational about saying professional players should not have to pay entry fees? It is what I believe in.)

(The players were scheduled to come a week in advance for a training camp. They came as scheduled. You did a great thing by giving Larry those tables, I saw the bill.)

(I do know what Im talking about. I found sponsorship money for years. If you did not notice our first professional tournament had Wendy's, Canad Inns and about 8 other corporate companies that supported that event)

(I know very well what you do, I have given you lot's of money to your BCA pool league over the years. I appreciate the work it takes to run tournaments, I promoted the most successful Eight Ball tournament to ever last in Winnipeg. It is still filled to capacity, week after week, to this day!)

(I am speaking my mind and that's what a forum is for. You have never spoke your mind, huh? I hear it all the time on your podcasts. You are never afraid to bash APA, Bonus Ball or anything else if you can and you have.)

(It is not personal but it is my opinion, if the shoe fits... you tell me why you hope Bonus Ball works out, this will be interesting.)

Here is why I hope the WPBL works out. There will be matches that I can watch in a team format that is not ran once a year by Barry Hearns. I will be able to follow my favorite team week to week. I love statistics. I love seeing who is the actual top scoring player in the league. I like seeing which player is improving and which team will end up the champion. I want to see other amateur players that quit leagues once they hit a certain level come back to pool and play this strategic and well structured game. I want to see other amateur players learn this game and play it because I like to see the smile when they discover just how good the game plays! www.wpbl.tv

This post was a general statement on why I don't believe professional players should be paying large entry fees. I realize that entry fees are necessary in amateur tournaments. This post is my opinion and not meant to please everyone that the shoe fits.

Barry Bremner, amateur pool player!

Well, Mr. Bremner, I gotta give credit where credit is due. You definitely know how to work this forum's software with the different font colors. :D

I think everybody appreciates the hard work involved in this huge endeavor, and I am so pleased that the pro players have this opportunity to make some money.

Please take a different tone to Mark Griffin. He's one of the good guys in the pool world. You-all are kind of newbies. I think even if you may not like what he has to say, you should at least give him a modicum of respect on a public forum that is read by many different pool peeps -- industry members, print media, prospective sponsors, pro players, amateur players, railbirds, pool aficionados, you know, the ones who will be buying your product. I want to like you.

Do you know who Jim Wych is? I'm just curious. :)

dorabelle
11-26-2012, 09:20 AM
Of the players listed on the Bonus Ball rosters (I havent checked, just was curious) how many of them made $26,000 last year? (keeping in mind Bonus Ball is scheduled for only 26 weeks, so its only 6 months) I know players like Darren or Shane make good money every year, Im sure they can also write off the travel cost if they pay taxes on their winnings (not my business either)

If the players were smart, (which rarely happens) they'd take their guaranteed income (JOB) and be happy with it. Us common folk, who have to grind out 40,50,60,70 etc hours a week (maybe you dont, but I do) do it because we want guaranteed money.

As long as the company that you work for generates income.

D_Lewis
11-26-2012, 09:24 AM
As long as the company that you work for generates income.

Maybe the funds will be held in escrow? Im not sure whats up with the cash, I assume they'll be paying out and then hoping to recoup what they spent in other ways to off-set the initial payouts?

JAM
11-26-2012, 09:26 AM
Is the Bonus Ball enterprise an American or Canadian corporation/company? Does anybody know?

SpiderWebComm
11-26-2012, 09:26 AM
What would the mosconi cup look like if BB wasn't delayed? Would mosconi have lost half it's players?

That's a good question. I'd love to see one of the player contracts.

vpbb123
11-26-2012, 09:32 AM
JAM SAID: Well, Mr. Bremner, I gotta give credit where credit is due. You definitely know how to work this forum's software with the different font colors.

I think everybody appreciates the hard work involved in this huge endeavor, and I am so pleased that the pro players have this opportunity to make some money.

Please take a different tone to Mark Griffin. He's one of the good guys in the pool world. You-all are kind of newbies. I think even if you may not like what he has to say, you should at least give him a modicum of respect on a public forum that is read by many different pool peeps -- industry members, print media, prospective sponsors, pro players, amateur players, railbirds, pool aficionados, you know, the ones who will be buying your product. I want to like you.

Do you know who Jim Wych is? I'm just curious.

I answered Mark back the same way he answered me. It's only fair. Again, it has nothing to do really with Bonus Ball. It is my opinion on charging professional players large entry fees. I think it is wrong. My opinion. Why I want the WPBL personally to succeed is again my own feelings. I'm a statistic fanatic.

On a league matter that you have asked about...of course I know Jimmy!

He is a great guy! I wish Jim was still promoting but Larry and Jim agreed to part ways, but it had nothing to do with non-payment of funds. That is a personal business disagreement and is no reflection on either gentleman. Nothing personal, simply business. I can't wait to hear Jim announcing the Mosconi Cup! Of all the nine ball announcers, I like him a lot! Well, I'm off to Las Vegas. Anyone wanting to play me some Bonus Ball, come on down! It will be my pleasure to introduce you to this fun game!

I know! It is an American Corporation. Any other questions can be sent to info@playbonusball.com I will do everything I can to get back to everyone. Thanks for the questions!

justadub
11-26-2012, 09:34 AM
Well, Mr. Bremner, I gotta give credit where credit is due. You definitely know how to work this forum's software with the different font colors. :D

I think everybody appreciates the hard work involved in this huge endeavor, and I am so pleased that the pro players have this opportunity to make some money.

Please take a different tone to Mark Griffin. He's one of the good guys in the pool world. You-all are kind of newbies. I think even if you may not like what he has to say, you should at least give him a modicum of respect on a public forum that is read by many different pool peeps -- industry members, print media, prospective sponsors, pro players, amateur players, railbirds, pool aficionados, you know, the ones who will be buying your product. I want to like you.

Do you know who Jim Wych is? I'm just curious. :)

I don't have the cool graphic to add, but this is another BOOM post.

Nicely done, JAM. I was thinking in a similar fashion....this guy makes it difficult to want to like the prospective product. And it is still "prospective", until it finally starts. I hope it all works out, and becomes successful. Despite the tone of the lead promoter....

punter
11-26-2012, 09:37 AM
I don't have the cool graphic to add, but this is another BOOM post.

Nicely done, JAM. I was thinking in a similar fashion....this guy makes it difficult to want to like the prospective product. And it is still "prospective", until it finally starts. I hope it all works out, and becomes successful. Despite the tone of the lead promoter....

Yeah, the more I hear from him, the less I want to hear any more. JMO.

SpiderWebComm
11-26-2012, 10:01 AM
JAM SAID: Well, Mr. Bremner, I gotta give credit where credit is due. You definitely know how to work this forum's software with the different font colors.

I think everybody appreciates the hard work involved in this huge endeavor, and I am so pleased that the pro players have this opportunity to make some money.

Please take a different tone to Mark Griffin. He's one of the good guys in the pool world. You-all are kind of newbies. I think even if you may not like what he has to say, you should at least give him a modicum of respect on a public forum that is read by many different pool peeps -- industry members, print media, prospective sponsors, pro players, amateur players, railbirds, pool aficionados, you know, the ones who will be buying your product. I want to like you.

Do you know who Jim Wych is? I'm just curious.

I answered Mark back the same way he answered me. It's only fair. Again, it has nothing to do really with Bonus Ball. It is my opinion on charging professional players large entry fees. I think it is wrong. My opinion. Why I want the WPBL personally to succeed is again my own feelings. I'm a statistic fanatic.

On a league matter that you have asked about...of course I know Jimmy!

He is a great guy! I wish Jim was still promoting but Larry and Jim agreed to part ways, but it had nothing to do with non-payment of funds. That is a personal business disagreement and is no reflection on either gentleman. Nothing personal, simply business. I can't wait to hear Jim announcing the Mosconi Cup! Of all the nine ball announcers, I like him a lot! Well, I'm off to Las Vegas. Anyone wanting to play me some Bonus Ball, come on down! It will be my pleasure to introduce you to this fun game!

I know! It is an American Corporation. Any other questions can be sent to info@playbonusball.com I will do everything I can to get back to everyone. Thanks for the questions!

When you say that charging pros an entry fee is wrong --- please explain.

FACT#1: There is no pro tour that's funded (and marketable) on tv. Therefore, in order to pay the players -- one must collect entry fees. If you said "unfortunate" -- that might be accurate. But to say it's "wrong" is ignorant and uneducated, implying as though the promoters who do run events and do put money into the pockets of pros are taking advantage of them. It's not wrong if it's the only option. You act as though promoters should just let everyone play for free and hand money out like welfare. As of now, pros can play for small entry fees and make peanuts or larger fees and make more money. Or, they can sign BB contracts for free money until it explodes or goes broke.

FACT#2: Mark didn't have a condescending tone in his email to you; yet you were a hair crass in return. Mark, from what I read, merely thought you insinuated no one else was doing anything for pro players and he was a little frustrated/concerned on moving dates -- which makes it hard to schedule around BB.


Giving the players a "break" and waive entry fees and find sponsors. If it were only that easy. The bottom line is--- corporate America doesn't want to sponsor pool. Every time they have, they've been burnt. There are no viewers --- it's not on TV--- and outside of ourselves, no one goes to watch pro players. Only a small, small segment of pool players pay to watch pro pool players. Therefore, there is no ROI in sponsoring anything pool-related from a corporate perspective save the random chance of a corporate exec being a pool player himself (think of the doctor who annually sponsors the world 14.1--- he does it for the LOVE of the game, NOT as a marketing endeavor--- i.e. what a true "sponsor" is).

I suspect the BB will find out the sponsorship world for anything pool/billiard related here in the U.S. is a very cold foreboding place.

If pros want to make real money and play for millions, they should get off their asses like the PGA players did and do something about it themselves-- form a company that creates a tour, find sponsorship, fund it, etc. The golfers did it (with help, but they started it) -- the pool players should do the same. Otherwise, it's victim this and victim that and how it's unfair they have to pay this or that entry fee. Their future is really in their own hands--- no one else's.

Black-Balled
11-26-2012, 10:05 AM
I love pool and can barely stand sittting through a match, as a spectator.

JCIN
11-26-2012, 10:08 AM
Of the players listed on the Bonus Ball rosters (I havent checked, just was curious) how many of them made $26,000 last year? (keeping in mind Bonus Ball is scheduled for only 26 weeks, so its only 6 months) I know players like Darren or Shane make good money every year, Im sure they can also write off the travel cost if they pay taxes on their winnings (not my business either)

If the players were smart, (which rarely happens) they'd take their guaranteed income (JOB) and be happy with it. Us common folk, who have to grind out 40,50,60,70 etc hours a week (maybe you dont, but I do) do it because we want guaranteed money.

Well I didnt make $26,000 last year and if you offered me a job on the other side of the country guaranteeing $22K and six months work I wouldn't go. Postponing it twice for a month at time wouldnt make it any more attractive. But then I'm not a pool player either.

Its like I said originally...for some guys it makes sense to commit that much time and travel while for others it doesnt.

JCIN
11-26-2012, 10:17 AM
I appreciate the work it takes to run tournaments, I promoted the most successful Eight Ball tournament to ever last in Winnipeg. It is still filled to capacity, week after week, to this day!

Let me see here.....

Mark G:
$25K added points event with an international field, 200+ table amateur event with 6000+ players in a strip casino in Vegas. 60,000 member amateur league. Week long bar table event with $25K added in the largest casino in Reno.

Barry B:
Most successful weekly 8 ball tourney in Winnipeg.

I would say when it comes to pool event promoting those two resumes are pretty much neck and neck.

D_Lewis
11-26-2012, 10:35 AM
Well I didnt make $26,000 last year and if you offered me a job on the other side of the country guaranteeing $22K and six months work I wouldn't go.

$44,000 annual income is pretty decent compared to making under $26,000.

Food, clothes, housing, etc. All cost dolla dolla bills.

Let me see here.....

Mark G:
$25K added points event with an international field, 200+ table amateur event with 6000+ players in a strip casino in Vegas. 60,000 member amateur league. Week long bar table event with $25K added in the largest casino in Reno.

Barry B:
Most successful weekly 8 ball tourney in Winnipeg.

I would say when it comes to pool event promoting those two resumes are pretty much neck and neck.

I think Mark is fantastic and by no means am I under the Bonus Ball umbrella. Here is a good question.

Of the $25,000 added, how much of it was ACTUALLY out of pocket? (IE vendor booth rentals, sponsorship, money from sanction fees, hotel kick back, etc)Does he take a loss to put the events on? It seems Bonus Ball is going to take about a million dollar hit just to make it through the first year.

I'd HATE to see anyone take a loss but as a whole, as the above listed tournaments at a loss or is there still profit on top of the 25K added?

The APA pays out like a half million, they also bring in Jay-Z type money and its all because of the players. I assume BCA is different.

None of this is my business, although I am curious.

Ghosst
11-26-2012, 10:45 AM
Finally a thread that will get Bonus Ball a ton of attention so that when the season starts, people will be checking it out. There is no bad press.

Some of things I just read in here so far changed my mind about Bonus Ball, and not for the better. That is not good press.

I did read an excellent idea though; Mark Griffin to be inducted into the HoF. I'm pretty sure he's done enough several times over for that honor.





.

JCIN
11-26-2012, 10:46 AM
$44,000 annual income is pretty decent compared to making under $26,000.

Food, clothes, housing, etc. All cost dolla dolla bills.



I think Mark is fantastic and by no means am I under the Bonus Ball umbrella. Here is a good question.

Of the $25,000 added, how much of it was ACTUALLY out of pocket? (IE vendor booth rentals, sponsorship, money from sanction fees, hotel kick back, etc)Does he take a loss to put the events on? It seems Bonus Ball is going to take about a million dollar hit just to make it through the first year.

I'd HATE to see anyone take a loss but as a whole, as the above listed tournaments at a loss or is there still profit on top of the 25K added?

The APA pays out like a half million, they also bring in Jay-Z type money and its all because of the players. I assume BCA is different.

None of this is my business, although I am curious.
I don't know what the tournament makes or doesnt make but I know if he lost his ass every year he wouldnt keep doing it and he shouldnt. Its not SUPPOSED to be out of pocket. Promoters are SUPPOSED to make money.

This is why he is able to keep coming back year after year.

I have to say the way you present your point makes no sense to me. The added money has to come from somewhere. Having revenue streams like a gate, sponsors, vendors or whatever are a viable way to make up that $25K therefor allowing the event to continue. Its a lot harder making those numbers add up when you are talking seven figures.

Just because Bonus ball is jumping off a cliff with millions doesnt mean anything other than someone was good at pitching investors.

nathandumoulin
11-26-2012, 11:23 AM
Just because Bonus ball is jumping off a cliff with millions doesnt mean anything other than someone was good at pitching investors.

Just because past pool promoters are unable to think of a way to generate income, doesn't mean BB will suffer the same fate. The world isn't limited to what you can conceive on your own. Do you really think investors would fire millions at this if there wasn't a plan in place to recoup the funds?

It's quite clear that most people know nothing about what BB has planned, and that makes sense given no information has been released as of yet. If everyone was educated and showing concern, then I'd be worried. But at this point everyone is just speculating with no real understanding.

At the end of the day, players are being paid, and pool is being given an opportunity. Sure, it's an organizational mess thus far and delays are numerous, but they're just that, delays. I see no need for all this other nonsense.

When the season starts in Jan, I predict everyone changes their tone rather quickly.

dorabelle
11-26-2012, 11:25 AM
If I was an investor that didn't know about pool Im sure my imagination could take off too. It seems like an untapped market. The reality is pool boring to watch for people who don't love the sport. Its boring to watch even for most people who do love the game.

JCIN
11-26-2012, 11:32 AM
Sure, it's an organizational mess thus far

So you have a genius never before thought of idea for selling bonus ball to the masses but you cant meet a deadline of any sort thus far.

Got it.

Standing by to be amazed at the brilliance.

lfigueroa
11-26-2012, 11:43 AM
Just because past pool promoters are unable to think of a way to generate income, doesn't mean BB will suffer the same fate. The world isn't limited to what you can conceive on your own. Do you really think investors would fire millions at this if there wasn't a plan in place to recoup the funds?

It's quite clear that most people know nothing about what BB has planned, and that makes sense given no information has been released as of yet. If everyone was educated and showing concern, then I'd be worried. But at this point everyone is just speculating with no real understanding.

At the end of the day, players are being paid, and pool is being given an opportunity. Sure, it's an organizational mess thus far and delays are numerous, but they're just that, delays. I see no need for all this other nonsense.

When the season starts in Jan, I predict everyone changes their tone rather quickly.


Everyone has "a plan." But very few of those plans are viable.

You've ID'd a crucial problem with how BB is operating: a lack of information presented in a manner that will garner support amongst the game's fans. People want the game and BB to succeed but it's hard (impossible) to get behind a project that looks like a car wreck happening in slow motion. BB has totally screwed the pooch on their presentation and all that that shows me is that their "plan" has not been well thought out. And if they can't get that element right, it makes me wonder how sound the rest of the deal is constructed.

Lou Figueroa

JD_Hogg
11-26-2012, 11:45 AM
Unexpected delays happen all the time in biz, cause there unexpected.

Kinda glad they are trying to wait till everything is right before kickin it off. People want to bash em for anything they dont do 100% right, or there way of thinkin. But thats their right and what goes on in forums.

If it takes off it will be great for pool. We can nit pick all the things they do wrong but seems they are trying hard to do right.

Barry went off a lil and prob shouldnt have but he just trying to defend his product from all the haters..

If i see a BB shot make Sportscenter's highlight of the night im gonna shit :eek: ... but sure hope it happens

GL

lee brett
11-26-2012, 11:58 AM
Seems to me all the bashing being done, is a conflict of interest!! And lap dogs standing up for their masters. Sit boy, give me your paw.. ;)

cleary
11-26-2012, 12:04 PM
Just because past pool promoters are unable to think of a way to generate income, doesn't mean BB will suffer the same fate. The world isn't limited to what you can conceive on your own. Do you really think investors would fire millions at this if there wasn't a plan in place to recoup the funds?

It's quite clear that most people know nothing about what BB has planned, and that makes sense given no information has been released as of yet. If everyone was educated and showing concern, then I'd be worried. But at this point everyone is just speculating with no real understanding.

At the end of the day, players are being paid, and pool is being given an opportunity. Sure, it's an organizational mess thus far and delays are numerous, but they're just that, delays. I see no need for all this other nonsense.

When the season starts in Jan, I predict everyone changes their tone rather quickly.

Unless these bonusball big wigs are in bed with some major network, they're in serious trouble.

I understand the goal is to generate new fans and players that currently don't play pool, but complicating the game and adding ugly looking jerseys isn't the ticket.

Of course, if your plan is to make all of your money by selling PPV to the pool fans we already have, good luck!

I cannot blame you, Lenny, Dave, or any of the players involved. If someone was throwing money out of a window and wanted me to catch it, I would too. Just don't fall in love with the dream that it's going to blow up, cause it will be a nightmare.

cleary
11-26-2012, 12:06 PM
Seems to me all the bashing being done, is a conflict of interest!! And lap dogs standing up for their masters. Sit boy, give me your paw.. ;)

And all of the bonus ball lovers are the ones with their hand in the cookie jar.

JCIN
11-26-2012, 12:07 PM
Seems to me all the bashing being done, is a conflict of interest!! And lap dogs standing up for their masters. Sit boy, give me your paw.. ;)

What happened to your "Goodbye cruel world!!" thread?

I thought you quit AZ.

It does amuse me that everyone hoping to get some money from this deal is chirping now.

jollyrodger
11-26-2012, 12:07 PM
I have it all figured out........... We kill the batman!

Jesters
11-26-2012, 12:12 PM
Seems to me all the bashing being done, is a conflict of interest!! And lap dogs standing up for their masters. Sit boy, give me your paw.. ;)
Who are you talking about? Who are the Lap Dogs? I can only think that you are talking about one person and I think you are a little off base and rude. If you want to talk about "Lap dogs" I would certainly put you in that group for the Bonus Ball people. You are probably hanging by a thread at this point trying to hold on to your ref job. See not very nice when you get insulted is it? Now go back to your masters at Bonus Ball and tell them how you stood up for them on some forums. Glass houses, I would have thought you would be the last person to chime in with a comment like that given your position.

Jaden
11-26-2012, 12:16 PM
Everyone has "a plan." But very few of those plans are viable.

You've ID'd a crucial problem with how BB is operating: a lack of information presented in a manner that will garner support amongst the game's fans. People want the game and BB to succeed but it's hard (impossible) to get behind a project that looks like a car wreck happening in slow motion. BB has totally screwed the pooch on their presentation and all that that shows me is that their "plan" has not been well thought out. And if they can't get that element right, it makes me wonder how sound the rest of the deal is constructed.

Lou Figueroa

You don't need the games current fans, hell alienate every single current billiards fan and it wouldn't mean jack.

You could have EVERY current fan in the bag and nothing you do would be viable.

You HAVE to get mass interest in order for anything billiard related to become viable as a self sustaining revenue generator.

What has been done obviously isn't working. The most successful thing out there (mosconi cup) has several things that other attempts don't.

Team rivalry, something for the masses to get behind...."USA, USA, USA..." "Europe, Europe, Europe"...


A team based format so that you can choose which individuals to route for, different strokes for different folks, etc...
Guess what???? All of these things that differentiate the most successful current billiards endeavor are not only IN BB, they are magnified and are likely to be specifically promoted.

As to the comment that all proponents of BB are in their pockets.... I'm not...

I happen to just like the game and while it is direct competition for something I have had in the works for several years, I don't see it as a negative if it manages to take off...

Jaden

lee brett
11-26-2012, 12:20 PM
Who are you talking about? Who are the Lap Dogs? I can only think that you are talking about one person and I think you are a little off base and rude. If you want to talk about "Lap dogs" I would certainly put you in that group for the Bonus Ball people. You are probably hanging by a thread at this point trying to hold on to your ref job. See not very nice when you get insulted is it? Now go back to your masters at Bonus Ball and tell them how you stood up for them on some forums. Glass houses, I would have thought you would be the last person to chime in with a comment like that given your position.


And why is that then?

I was merely making a light hearted joke and not being serious, as this thread is getting too serious. English humor is very sarcastic, so should be taken with a pinch of salt, i wasn't being rude i was making a joke. Text is read how you perceived it not how i meant it.

JAM
11-26-2012, 12:20 PM
Seems to me all the bashing being done, is a conflict of interest!! And lap dogs standing up for their masters. Sit boy, give me your paw.. ;)

If I were you, working with Bonus Ball, I'd be keeping a low profile on this forum about anything controversial. Because of your recent experience at the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship, you're already touted as one of the "Boxing Brits." I'm not sure I'd like a Boxing Brit refereeing my match. Referees, like umpires and even judges in legal proceedings, should remain neutral at all times, not instigating. ;)

lee brett
11-26-2012, 12:22 PM
Who are you talking about? Who are the Lap Dogs? I can only think that you are talking about one person and I think you are a little off base and rude. If you want to talk about "Lap dogs" I would certainly put you in that group for the Bonus Ball people. You are probably hanging by a thread at this point trying to hold on to your ref job. See not very nice when you get insulted is it? Now go back to your masters at Bonus Ball and tell them how you stood up for them on some forums. Glass houses, I would have thought you would be the last person to chime in with a comment like that given your position.

Given my position? so what does that mean Jesters? and who are you? or do you hide behind your screen name sir?

Jaden
11-26-2012, 12:25 PM
If I was an investor that didn't know about pool Im sure my imagination could take off too. It seems like an untapped market. The reality is pool boring to watch for people who don't love the sport. Its boring to watch even for most people who do love the game.

The only thing that has stopped pool from being successful is not having the right marketing.

Maybe in the past, the skill level, the type of game and nature of the need for ultimate focus has made marketing pool to the masses extremely difficult.

Creating a team based, city based format is necessary IMO to create a marketing gimmick to attract the masses to it.

As I said, people are manipulable idiots, give them something to cling to and use marketing to convince them they want to and you'll have them. That's true in ANY market.

Jaden

Ghosst
11-26-2012, 12:26 PM
I find it interesting that the proponents of Bonus Ball keep saying in one way or another that it is the best thing ever and everything else pool related is stupid, antiquated, and just plain bad. On the other hand, the fans and players of cue sports all want to see Bonus Ball do well.

Anger only seems to be flowing from one direction.

lee brett
11-26-2012, 12:27 PM
If I were you, working with Bonus Ball, I'd be keeping a low profile on this forum about anything controversial. Because of your recent experience at the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship, you're already touted as one of the "Boxing Brits." I'm not sure I'd like a Boxing Brit refereeing my match. Referees, like umpires and even judges in legal proceedings, should remain neutral at all times, not instigating. ;)

Why is that Jam?

I was merely making a lighthearted comment. Sure they can see the funny side to that.

Also at the US open i defended myself from someone attacking me, i done ju jitsu and judo, not boxing. Darren was the boxing champ. He is the boxing Brit, they call me the hooligan for some reason i don't know why. ;)

And better to have a ref who has control and is respected, and keeps people in check.

JCIN
11-26-2012, 12:27 PM
The only thing that has stopped pool from being successful is not having the right marketing.

Maybe in the past, the skill level, the type of game and nature of the need for ultimate focus has made marketing pool to the masses extremely difficult.

Creating a team based, city based format is necessary IMO to create a marketing gimmick to attract the masses to it.

As I said, people are manipulable idiots, give them something to cling to and use marketing to convince them they want to and you'll have them. That's true in ANY market.

Jaden
So if its so easy to get people to buy something why dont you take the fortune you made in marketing and put it to use for your idea to to make pool HUGE ?

Some of the shit that gets posted here makes me shake my head.

dorabelle
11-26-2012, 12:30 PM
You don't need the games current fans, hell alienate every single current billiards fan and it wouldn't mean jack.

You could have EVERY current fan in the bag and nothing you do would be viable.

You HAVE to get mass interest in order for anything billiard related to become viable as a self sustaining revenue generator.

What has been done obviously isn't working. The most successful thing out there (mosconi cup) has several things that other attempts don't.

Team rivalry, something for the masses to get behind...."USA, USA, USA..." "Europe, Europe, Europe"...


A team based format so that you can choose which individuals to route for, different strokes for different folks, etc...
Guess what???? All of these things that differentiate the most successful current billiards endeavor are not only IN BB, they are magnified and are likely to be specifically promoted.

As to the comment that all proponents of BB are in their pockets.... I'm not...

I happen to just like the game and while it is direct competition for something I have had in the works for several years, I don't see it as a negative if it manages to take off...

Jaden

Pools been around for a long time and many people have tried to get the " masses" interested.
It's so simple. You need a product to sell to people and you need people to sell a product to. The product is watching pool. It's just not interesting to the masses.
Only thing i have heard about revenue that makes any sense is through TV. Correct me if I'm wrong but the IPT had big ties to some network and they didn't make it.
IMO all these avenues have been tried. I just can't see where the money is gonna come from.

JumpinJoe
11-26-2012, 12:30 PM
Let me see here.....

Mark G:
$25K added points event with an international field, 200+ table amateur event with 6000+ players in a strip casino in Vegas. 60,000 member amateur league. Week long bar table event with $25K added in the largest casino in Reno.

Barry B:
Most successful weekly 8 ball tourney in Winnipeg.

I would say when it comes to pool event promoting those two resumes are pretty much neck and neck.

+1
lmao. good one.

JAM
11-26-2012, 12:31 PM
Why is that Jam?

I was merely making a lighthearted comment. Sure they can see the funny side to that.

Also at the US open i defended myself from someone attacking me, i done ju jitsu and judo, not boxing. Darren was the boxing champ. He is the boxing Brit, they call me the hooligan for some reason i don't know why. ;)

And better to have a ref who has control and is respected, and keeps people in check.

Okay, I see your point, but you should really sit on the sidelines and let this all transpire on the forum.

In case you haven't noticed (though I am sure you have), the pool public is a fickle group. They can be swayed quite easily with money.

If Bonus Ball needs a proofreader or an editor, my support can be purchased: Go Bonus Ball, all the way!

If those who work for and with Bonus Ball continue to post on this forum creating a division between the pool public and Bonus Ball, well, they're digging their own grave. I would not like to see that happen.

dorabelle
11-26-2012, 12:34 PM
The only thing that has stopped pool from being successful is not having the right marketing.

Maybe in the past, the skill level, the type of game and nature of the need for ultimate focus has made marketing pool to the masses extremely difficult.

Creating a team based, city based format is necessary IMO to create a marketing gimmick to attract the masses to it.

As I said, people are manipulable idiots, give them something to cling to and use marketing to convince them they want to and you'll have them. That's true in ANY market.

Jaden
Jaden you still need a product that people want. Marketing can only go so far.

dorabelle
11-26-2012, 12:35 PM
I don't think the critics on here are hating, they are counting.

Jaden
11-26-2012, 12:36 PM
So if its so easy to get people to buy something why dont you take the fortune you made in marketing and put it to use for your idea to to make pool HUGE ?

Some of the shit that gets posted here makes me shake my head.

It wasn't a personal attack on you...

I said it's stupid to say it is impossible. I would love to have the means to try my pilot and to find out whether it is viable.

I don't have an extra 50g's laying around to do so and I haven't had the time or the inclination to put together a business and marketing plan to try and get investors involved.

I think it's great that someone else is going to try something similar and I think it may be possible to make it successful.

I DON'T know if trying to do it with a new game is the best idea, but I haven't been able to look through their business plan to say whether it is viable or not.

I also said that with the pool games available it has been difficult if not impossible to generate general interest in watching billiards, but for the record, your attempts are probably the closest thing to it that has been done this far and I have hopes for Mark Griffin's ideas and what he has been working on.

I find the lack of organization and communication by the BB people disheartening but I only wish the best for them because I want to see pool be successful.

Jaden

lee brett
11-26-2012, 12:38 PM
Okay, I see your point, but you should really sit on the sidelines and let this all transpire on the forum.

In case you haven't noticed (though I am sure you have), the pool public is a fickle group. They can be swayed quite easily with money.

If Bonus Ball needs a proofreader or an editor, my support can be purchased: Go Bonus Ball, all the way!

If those who work for and with Bonus Ball continue to post on this forum creating a division between the pool public and Bonus Ball, well, they're digging their own grave. I would not like to see that happen.

I agree Jam, but i also feel like the guys are doing a great job in what they are doing, and deserved to be given a break before the league has even started. I mean people are on there back before they have hit a ball, so you can't blame them in defending themselves, i should know i had to defend myself recently ;) and got bad press for that.

I'm saying that being neutral and not as part of the league, i'm not taking sides. This league is good for pool and everyone involved in the game, and should be given support by everyone, not people knocking it before it's started. Give them a break, and should if fail, then knock away. Until then i say support them or say nothing.

Jesters
11-26-2012, 12:40 PM
Given my position? so what does that mean Jesters? and who are you? or do you hide behind your screen name sir?
Given your position after the fight at the Open. Your reputation has been tarnished and so has Appleton's. The difference is, he is a World Champion and you are not. He was picked to play on a team with Bonus Ball and you were not. He can get away with more than you can. OH not a Sir I'm a Ms thank you.

dorabelle
11-26-2012, 12:41 PM
I agree Jam, but i also feel like the guys are doing a great job in what they are doing, and deserved to be given a break before the league has even started. I mean people are on there back before they have hit a ball, so you can't blame them in defending themselves, i should know i had to defend myself recently ;) and got bad press for that.

I'm saying that being neutral and not as part of the league, i'm not taking sides. This league is good for pool and everyone involved in the game, and should be given support by everyone, not people knocking it before it's started. Give them a break, and should if fail, then knock away. Until then i say support them or say nothing.

Everyone wants to see these guys do good and the players make some cash. Lee where is the money going to come from to pay the pros?

JAM
11-26-2012, 12:44 PM
I agree Jam, but i also feel like the guys are doing a great job in what they are doing, and deserved to be given a break before the league has even started. I mean people are on there back before they have hit a ball, so you can't blame them in defending themselves, i should know i had to defend myself recently ;) and got bad press for that.

I'm saying that being neutral and not as part of the league, i'm not taking sides. This league is good for pool and everyone involved in the game, and should be given support by everyone, not people knocking it before it's started. Give them a break, and should if fail, then knock away. Until then i say support them or say nothing.

Lee, I'm sure you know that members of this forum are not going to remain quiet and say nothing about this topic.

Not favorable rumors concerning Bonus Ball occurred over a year ago, before its representative(s) started posting on AzBilliards. In fact, most people on this forum had never heard of Bonus Ball at that time.

In a way, I think Bonus Ball should pick one entity to be the mouthpiece on this forum and elsewhere as far as promotion, advertising, and replying to concerned pool folk. The words written in black and white can be misconstrued or misinterpreted quite easily by professional forum posters.

I do understand those who are involved with Bonus Ball want to keep it afloat and eliminate all the negative press. The best way to accomplish this is to utilize the services of a professional PR person. If Bonus Ball is investing as much money as has been written about, I would think this to be a given.

I wish you all the best, Lee, even if you are a Boxing Brit. [joking] :smile:

watchez
11-26-2012, 12:44 PM
Ok - I probably missed it as I tried to get caught up in the thread -

Who are the sponsors - or the money men - behind Bonus Ball?

I couldn't find anything in this thread on who is paying out the millions and when I go to www.playbonusball.com all I see is that they are supported by AZ Billiards and Insidepool.

Oh and the website still says that the live streaming starts Nov 29th.

justadub
11-26-2012, 12:48 PM
I agree Jam, but i also feel like the guys are doing a great job in what they are doing, and deserved to be given a break before the league has even started. I mean people are on there back before they have hit a ball, so you can't blame them in defending themselves, i should know i had to defend myself recently ;) and got bad press for that.

I'm saying that being neutral and not as part of the league, i'm not taking sides. This league is good for pool and everyone involved in the game, and should be given support by everyone, not people knocking it before it's started. Give them a break, and should if fail, then knock away. Until then i say support them or say nothing.

I think its fair to say everyone that has commented in this thread is hopeful that it works, so there are no "haters" here.

As far as knocking is concerned, when the primary mouthpiece for the project goes off, publicly, on Mark Griffin, I think you will notice a bit of resistance to "saying nothing"....

To be clear, I hope it flies. I really do. Hopefully the marketing for this project, and its management, can get their stuff together and present a professional product.

1on1pooltournys
11-26-2012, 02:01 PM
Ok - I probably missed it as I tried to get caught up in the thread -

Who are the sponsors - or the money men - behind Bonus Ball?

I couldn't find anything in this thread on who is paying out the millions and when I go to www.playbonusball.com all I see is that they are supported by AZ Billiards and Insidepool.

Oh and the website still says that the live streaming starts Nov 29th.

Not sure but it smells like KT.

Also, this thread is about the "players." Who exactly are they? I went to website hoping their was a roster or something. I found nothing. How many players and who are they?

nb92
11-26-2012, 02:21 PM
first time I have ever read a thread of this length from start to (well where it is now...)

Having done so I can state:

1. I will continue to purchase every TAR match and look forward to some sort of accessible historical archive

2. Will NOT spend a nickel on anything associated with Bonus Ball

3. and as someone who was at the US Open and at Q-masters for the "event" with Lee and D... I would gladly give up some PPV $$ to see that one go again... I hear there is a facility in Las Vegas (currently under construction) that might make a good location...

RobertaAgnor
11-26-2012, 02:29 PM
Not sure but it smells like KT.

Also, this thread is about the "players." Who exactly are they? I went to website hoping their was a roster or something. I found nothing. How many players and who are they?

This is from their Friends of Bonus Ball Facebook page, it gives the team names & players:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=457445074305771&set=a.122886701094945.25542.116172258433056&type=1&theater

The Renfro
11-26-2012, 02:35 PM
Given your position after the fight at the Open. Your reputation has been tarnished and so has Appleton's. The difference is, he is a World Champion and you are not. He was picked to play on a team with Bonus Ball and you were not. He can get away with more than you can. OH not a Sir I'm a Ms thank you.

Actually I don't really see Lee or Darren's reputations being tarnished.. Passionate people play the game and they make their bones by being who they are..... The real question still is unanswered... Who are you behind the keyboard slinging mud? A world champion? A BB player? A teacher or instructor?

Pretty much over the anonymous bashing around here... Either post your name when you have something to say or GTFO.....

Good day sir errrr Ms errrr oh yeah anon...

Chris Renfro

Cory in DC
11-26-2012, 02:39 PM
Not sure but it smells like KT.

Also, this thread is about the "players." Who exactly are they? I went to website hoping their was a roster or something. I found nothing. How many players and who are they?

Aside from Dechaine's withdrawal, noted in another thread today, the rosters -- i.e., the players-- are here: http://www.wpbl.tv/news4.shtml. A few big names are absent, but it's a hell of a lineup.

All new ventures are risky and hit a lot of unexpected roadblocks, and they all start out deep in the red. Drive through the DC area today and you'll see lots of storefronts and restaurant-fronts that are clearly still works-in-progress with signs up stating "Opening Fall 2012" and "Opening Summer 2012". So, while communication could have been better, these issues are not necessarily a sign of impending doom. Just opening a new business in the real world.

FWIW, I think some of the Bonus Ball representatives/advocates could try to engage in more productive dialogues and be a little more thick-skinned. Bonus Ball would be well-served if all of them would emulate Nathan and Lenny.

That said, Bonus Ball is a fun game that forces a lot of aggressive shots, one-pocket style banks, tight position play, etc. From shot-to-shot, I found that, in terms of skills required, it most reminded me of one-pocket (playing the three-hole advanced version of the game). For me, that's a good thing. For the skeptics, you should probably spend one hour of your life trying the game before you conclude that it's silly. Some won't like it, but that's life. I can't stand 9-ball and some great 9-ball players can't stand one pocket.

Don't try to get all the rules down (I haven't), just try to hold the sequence and get a feel for what run-outs and safeties are like. I use solid-stripe-8 ball (instead of purple-orange-black) and it works fine. I also put little Post-It flags on three pockets to help me keep track.

Cory

jay helfert
11-26-2012, 02:39 PM
I guess only time will tell how much impact Bonus Ball has on professional pool. All the speculating on here won't change a thing. My observation is that there are limited opportunities for all but the very best players, the ones who are willing (and able) to travel the globe for all the major tournaments. In this country, amazingly enough, we have exactly one player (Shane) who plays on the international pool circuit. And he struggles to make it out there. Fortunately he seems to dominate things in this country, along with a few others like Alex.

Thanks to Bonus Ball, hopefully many other players will be able to pursue their dream of making a living from playing pool. Like I said, that remains to be seen if it will happen. It isn't so long ago that everyone was going to get rich thanks to TruDough. I was one of the few who did not trust all his promises and warned many players to beware, and don't spend money they hadn't yet received. They thanked me by telling me to stay out of it and I did. We know what happened next.

I prefer to sit this one out and see what transpires over the course of the next few months. If 36 players make a good payday then it hasn't all been bad. It's a little more money in their pockets and some much needed help down the road. If it falters before the first year is over, I would call it just one more failed idea. If somehow Bonus Ball is able to continue into a second year, I'd call that a huge success. So let's just see how this one evolves over the course of the next six months. I'm willing to reserve judgment until then. Frankly I like these guys (Larry and Barry) a lot more than I cared for TruDough. I KNEW he was a shyster!

lee brett
11-26-2012, 02:44 PM
Given your position after the fight at the Open. Your reputation has been tarnished and so has Appleton's. The difference is, he is a World Champion and you are not. He was picked to play on a team with Bonus Ball and you were not. He can get away with more than you can. OH not a Sir I'm a Ms thank you.

Given my position, and how have i been tarnished? I was attacked by him throwing punches at me, i defended myself like any normal human being would.

So if you see that as having a reputation tarnished from protecting yourself, then what is the world coming too! So since he is picked he has the right to be bigger than the league, i guess only in pool would you have that, certainly not in any other sport.

I am the referee, always was. I was told i can't be an alternate due to being the referee. As for the statement he can get away with more, is the most ridiculous thing I've heard, just cos your a world champion means you can go around making an ass of yourself and not apologize. The word ROLE MODEL comes to mind. Do i have an issue with Darren Appleton over it, no i don't i'm a grown up who shakes hands moves on and works together for the good of the league.

My apologies Ms.

Jesters
11-26-2012, 02:45 PM
Actually I don't really see Lee or Darren's reputations being tarnished.. Passionate people play the game and they make their bones by being who they are..... The real question still is unanswered... Who are you behind the keyboard slinging mud? A world champion? A BB player? A teacher or instructor?

Pretty much over the anonymous bashing around here... Either post your name when you have something to say or GTFO.....

Good day sir errrr Ms errrr oh yeah anon...

Chris Renfro
Well if you read the thread about what happened at the open I think you will find alot of people had negatives for both of them and therefore tarnished. I am sure they will make it up. Why are you so butt hurt about this? what stake do you have? I don't think I am slinging mud, I think that I am just telling it how it is or the way I see it. Thats the whole idea behind forums. Maybe you didn't know that but now you do :)

JAM
11-26-2012, 02:49 PM
Given my position, and how have i been tarnished? I was attacked by him throwing punches at me, i defended myself like any normal human being would.

So if you see that as having a reputation tarnished from protecting yourself, then what is the world coming too! So since he is picked he has the right to be bigger than the league, i guess only in pool would you have that, certainly not in any other sport.

I am the referee, always was. I was told i can't be an alternate due to being the referee. As for the statement he can get away with more, is the most ridiculous thing I've heard, just cos your a world champion means you can go around making an ass of yourself and not apologize. The word ROLE MODEL comes to mind. Do i have an issue with Darren Appleton over it, no i don't i'm a grown up who shakes hands moves on and works together for the good of the league.

My apologies Ms.

Good reply, Lee. :)

Jesters
11-26-2012, 02:51 PM
Given my position, and how have i been tarnished? I was attacked by him throwing punches at me, i defended myself like any normal human being would.

So if you see that as having a reputation tarnished from protecting yourself, then what is the world coming too! So since he is picked he has the right to be bigger than the league, i guess only in pool would you have that, certainly not in any other sport.

I am the referee, always was. I was told i can't be an alternate due to being the referee. As for the statement he can get away with more, is the most ridiculous thing I've heard, just cos your a world champion means you can go around making an ass of yourself and not apologize. The word ROLE MODEL comes to mind. Do i have an issue with Darren Appleton over it, no i don't i'm a grown up who shakes hands moves on and works together for the good of the league.

My apologies Ms.
Your fault or not it does not matter. I actually feel for your situation with what happened but it does not change the fact that you were involved and people will come to their own conclusions, like it or not. To your other point, if you don't think that Kobe gets away with more because hes Kobe or that stars in other sports do not get preferencial treatment then you are not paying attention. I have no real problem with you but your so called joke of a comment was in bad taste,

watchez
11-26-2012, 03:13 PM
Ok - I probably missed it as I tried to get caught up in the thread -

Who are the sponsors - or the money men - behind Bonus Ball?

I couldn't find anything in this thread on who is paying out the millions and when I go to www.playbonusball.com all I see is that they are supported by AZ Billiards and Insidepool.

Oh and the website still says that the live streaming starts Nov 29th.

LOL - now they changed the website to show streaming starts Jan 3rd.

Again - who are the sponsors - or the money men - behind Bonus Ball?

The Renfro
11-26-2012, 03:15 PM
Well if you read the thread about what happened at the open I think you will find alot of people had negatives for both of them and therefore tarnished. I am sure they will make it up. Why are you so butt hurt about this? what stake do you have? I don't think I am slinging mud, I think that I am just telling it how it is or the way I see it. Thats the whole idea behind forums. Maybe you didn't know that but now you do :)

Actually being at the Open trumps reading a thread about it.

Same thing happened in the thread you cite btw... anon posters piling on behind keyboards like so many other threads.

I know Lee and Darren personally so any anonymous opinion on their character, that was garnered perspective on only thru reading a thread, doesn't hold water in my book...

That's not being butthurt that just being over the keyboard cowboys/cowgirls that won't sign their name to what they have to say about anyone or anything..

I am Chris Renfro from Knoxville TN and I will say anything in person that I have posted in this forum... I respect those that do the same...

If someone won't sign a name to a post then I really don't give it much credibility......


Chris Renfro

SpiderWebComm
11-26-2012, 03:36 PM
If I were you, working with Bonus Ball, I'd be keeping a low profile on this forum about anything controversial. Because of your recent experience at the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship, you're already touted as one of the "Boxing Brits." I'm not sure I'd like a Boxing Brit refereeing my match. Referees, like umpires and even judges in legal proceedings, should remain neutral at all times, not instigating. ;)

JAM - it's unfair to say Lee instigated anything. From what I heard from my friend who was there--- Darren launched at Lee. That said, I'm a huge fan of both guys and hope the water is well beneath the bridge.

When alcohol is involved, things happen. That said -- that situation at the Open doesn't mean Lee should be keeping a low anything nor was he instigating. It doesn't mean I agree w/ his paw comment at all -- that chirp didn't need to get chirped. Just saying the other stuff wasn't a fair comment by you ;)

Lee just proved he's the man to beat in PPP, that's all - "IMO" of course.

Jesters
11-26-2012, 03:57 PM
Actually being at the Open trumps reading a thread about it.

Same thing happened in the thread you cite btw... anon posters piling on behind keyboards like so many other threads.

I know Lee and Darren personally so any anonymous opinion on their character, that was garnered perspective on only thru reading a thread, doesn't hold water in my book...

That's not being butthurt that just being over the keyboard cowboys/cowgirls that won't sign their name to what they have to say about anyone or anything..

I am Chris Renfro from Knoxville TN and I will say anything in person that I have posted in this forum... I respect those that do the same...

If someone won't sign a name to a post then I really don't give it much credibility......


Chris Renfro
I read a number of posts and alot of them were negative toward the two of them is all I am saying and therefore a little tarnished. Thats a fact and I don't need to know them or be there to make a decision on what the majority are saying in a forum. Another fact. I like the way you name drop though, and happy that you know 2 pro players. I think thats awesome. You are pretty cool after all.

JAM
11-26-2012, 04:46 PM
JAM - it's unfair to say Lee instigated anything. From what I heard from my friend who was there--- Darren launched at Lee. That said, I'm a huge fan of both guys and hope the water is well beneath the bridge.

When alcohol is involved, things happen. That said -- that situation at the Open doesn't mean Lee should be keeping a low anything nor was he instigating. It doesn't mean I agree w/ his paw comment at all -- that chirp didn't need to get chirped. Just saying the other stuff wasn't a fair comment by you ;)

Lee just proved he's the man to beat in PPP, that's all - "IMO" of course.

I responded to Lee nicely, but maybe you did not read the entire thread before you posted to me.

I am receiving PMs from a so-called "representative" of Bonus Ball giving me hell. Becuase of it, Bonus Ball sucks a big weenie as far as I'm concerned.

I wish Lee all the best, even if he is a member of Bonus Ball conglomerate.

I find it interesting that everybody from Arizona and Canada are Bonus Ball cheerleaders. What's up with that?

I was giving Bonus Ball a wait-and-see attitude, but now I think differently and won't be a fan.

Fatboy
11-26-2012, 04:48 PM
Its seems in this case I have more of a clue that you do my friend. here is nothing in my assesment that is not a valid point. You may have some interest in defending them and as so can look at this venture through rose colored glasses but for the most part people here are obviously seeing whats going on. Inspectors can be brutal but have they been brutal for almost a year??? Also what is the excuse for not telling the players until they got there? If you are in the know you should be able to easy answer these questions. Somehow I feel that you are not as much in the know as you think you are. Stoip defending things that are not defenable. If you really think that anyone including the players do not have concerns with the reliability of this venture you are kidding yourself. Take a step back and look at it without your bullt in bias and I think that you will realize that yopu are the one who should "STFU"

fu.........

u know nothing

and i dont have any $, or anything else in this project, yes inspectors 4 a yr is normal now in vegas

JAM
11-26-2012, 04:49 PM
Bonus Ball sucks! :mad::mad::mad:

justadub
11-26-2012, 04:57 PM
I responded to Lee nicely, but maybe you did not read the entire thread before you posted to me.

I am receiving PMs from a so-called "representative" of Bonus Ball giving me hell. Becuase of it, Bonus Ball sucks a big weenie as far as I'm concerned.

I wish Lee all the best, even if he is a member of Bonus Ball conglomerate.

I find it interesting that everybody from Arizona and Canada are Bonus Ball cheerleaders. What's up with that?

I was giving Bonus Ball a wait-and-see attitude, but now I think differently and won't be a fan.

I'm feeling left out, I haven't gotten any PM's.. :p

JAM
11-26-2012, 04:59 PM
I'm feeling left out, I haven't gotten any PM's.. :p

Well, if Bonus Ball fails and the players don't get their so-called "million-dollar payday," it will be all my fault, according to a Bonus Ball testicle dangler.

JB Cases
11-26-2012, 05:00 PM
Man, the brutality. Where has all the hope in the world gone?

Well, the silver lining is that the AZ brain trust can be looked upon as a team of brutally honest consultants who are not charging millions for their services.

So my thought is that given the IPT and it's spectacular flameout, given all the information that's widely known about the billiard industry, it's fans, and and and.....if the BB people don't have their shit together at this point to follow whatever plan and vision they have then so be it.

They have the entire history of pool and the status quo to look back on to see what didn't work and analyze why it didn't. They have all the negative nellies on here to remind them. They have people here on AZ who do know the pool world inside out from the pros and their "issues" to the industry and its "issues".

Given all that I say give it a chance, let them roll their dice in Vegas appropriately and see what happens. Even when you bet on the Lions you sometimes win.

JAM
11-26-2012, 05:03 PM
...Even when you bet on the Lions you sometimes win.

I hope you don't ever get any disparaging PMs from the Bonus Ball danglers. :mad:

There's only one lion I'll be betting on, and that's this guy. :wink:

justadub
11-26-2012, 05:03 PM
Well, if Bonus Ball fails and the players don't get their so-called "million-dollar payday," it will be all my fault, according to a Bonus Ball testicle dangler.

Wow, you wield much power, oh mighty Scrabble-Master.... Or is that Scrabble-Mistress?

JAM
11-26-2012, 05:06 PM
Wow, you wield much power, oh mighty Scrabble-Master.... Or is that Scrabble-Mistress?

Yeah, ain't that the truth. That and a dollar won't buy me a cup of Starbucks. :p

Jesters
11-26-2012, 05:07 PM
fu.........

u know nothing

and i dont have any $, or anything else in this project, yes inspectors 4 a yr is normal now in vegas
Well I can tell you this. If I were to be in command of a multimillion dollar venture I would sure as hell know what the time frame is for inspectors. If I didn't know I don't deserve the job and if I did know and kept it hidden then I should be fired. FU??? wow, did I hit a nerve?

JAM
11-26-2012, 05:08 PM
JAM - it's unfair to say Lee instigated anything. From what I heard from my friend who was there--- Darren launched at Lee. That said, I'm a huge fan of both guys and hope the water is well beneath the bridge.

When alcohol is involved, things happen. That said -- that situation at the Open doesn't mean Lee should be keeping a low anything nor was he instigating. It doesn't mean I agree w/ his paw comment at all -- that chirp didn't need to get chirped. Just saying the other stuff wasn't a fair comment by you ;)

Lee just proved he's the man to beat in PPP, that's all - "IMO" of course.

You know, I just re-read your post. Please re-read mine. I said "instigating" meaning posting on this forum. The word "instigating" had nothing to do with Lee at the Open. I think you may have missed my point, but that's okay. Because of me, Bonus Ball won't be giving the players a million-dollar payday.

JAM
11-26-2012, 05:09 PM
Well I can tell you this. If I were to be in command of a multimillion dollar venture I would sure as hell know what the time frame is for inspectors. If I didn't know I don't deserve the job and if I did know and kept it hidden then I should be fired. FU??? wow, did I hit a nerve?

Who is Fu? Is that a Bonus Ball player?

JAM
11-26-2012, 05:12 PM
I found Fu on Google: #2 pool player in the world Fu Xiao Fang. Who'd have thunk it?

Is she a member of Bonus Ball?

Rateking
11-26-2012, 05:14 PM
I read a number of posts and alot of them were negative toward the two of them is all I am saying and therefore a little tarnished. Thats a fact and I don't need to know them or be there to make a decision on what the majority are saying in a forum. Another fact. I like the way you name drop though, and happy that you know 2 pro players. I think thats awesome. You are pretty cool after all.

What is the number you speak of? How many posters need to pile on before you consider it "tarnished"?

What is "alot" - more vagueness

"A number of posters piled on with alot so now they are tarnished and THAT is a fact". LMAO

"another fact is you know 2 Pro's and like to name drop" THAT is some funny chit.

Clueless troll.

~rk

lfigueroa
11-26-2012, 05:14 PM
You don't need the games current fans, hell alienate every single current billiards fan and it wouldn't mean jack.

You could have EVERY current fan in the bag and nothing you do would be viable.

You HAVE to get mass interest in order for anything billiard related to become viable as a self sustaining revenue generator.

What has been done obviously isn't working. The most successful thing out there (mosconi cup) has several things that other attempts don't.

Team rivalry, something for the masses to get behind...."USA, USA, USA..." "Europe, Europe, Europe"...


A team based format so that you can choose which individuals to route for, different strokes for different folks, etc...
Guess what???? All of these things that differentiate the most successful current billiards endeavor are not only IN BB, they are magnified and are likely to be specifically promoted.

As to the comment that all proponents of BB are in their pockets.... I'm not...

I happen to just like the game and while it is direct competition for something I have had in the works for several years, I don't see it as a negative if it manages to take off...

Jaden


No, this is wrong on several levels. Here's two: first off they need the hard core fan base, which would be us, and by extension, our fellow pool players whom we interact with at the pool hall and leagues, but who may not participate in online discussions. Think of us, if you will, as potential ambassadors of all things pool. At the minimum, because we are online, we are also the prime and logical potential PPV audience.

Second, anyone who had thought this halfway through would know that in the event sponsors, TV, or other parties take more than a passing interest in this endeavor they're going to do their due diligence and see what the hard core fan base thinks of the whole idea. And where do you think they're going to look to take the temperature? That's right -- they're going to look right here. And that's why it would have been a good idea to have developed and carefully executed a PR plan to win us all over right from the git-go. That's just being smart.

But somewhat obviously, that's not what's happening.

Lou Figueroa

Fatboy
11-26-2012, 05:15 PM
Given your position after the fight at the Open. Your reputation has been tarnished and so has Appleton's. The difference is, he is a World Champion and you are not. He was picked to play on a team with Bonus Ball and you were not. He can get away with more than you can. OH not a Sir I'm a Ms thank you.


Tarnished? hell i think its great they both stood up for them selfs, whats wrong with that? sort it out and have a pint together afterwards, no problem

JAM
11-26-2012, 05:16 PM
Well, one thing is for sure. Bonus Ball doesn't give a damn what we pool fans think. Well, I don't give a damn what Bonus Ball thinks now, so there you have it. :mad::mad: :mad:

Jesters
11-26-2012, 05:19 PM
Tarnished? hell i think its great they both stood up for them selfs, whats wrong with that? sort it out and have a pint together afterwards, no problem
Did they have a pint together after??? I am sure that you know and was probably with them too.. SSSOOOOOOO

Fatboy
11-26-2012, 05:20 PM
Well I can tell you this. If I were to be in command of a multimillion dollar venture I would sure as hell know what the time frame is for inspectors. If I didn't know I don't deserve the job and if I did know and kept it hidden then I should be fired. FU??? wow, did I hit a nerve?


yeah man, the same guys F'ing with BB F'ed with me, Las Vegas Ward 6. Beleive me i know whats been going on, silly shit like fire sprinklers UNDER the bleacher seats-that cost $35K and more time, just when they are ready to sign off, nope more ball busting.....County workers busting balls to keep their jobs, I told Larry Vegas was a bad choice.

Jesters
11-26-2012, 05:20 PM
What is the number you speak of? How many posters need to pile on before you consider it "tarnished"?

What is "alot" - more vagueness

"A number of posters piled on with alot so now they are tarnished and THAT is a fact". LMAO

"another fact is you know 2 Pro's and like to name drop" THAT is some funny chit.

Clueless troll.

~rk
How many were negative and how many viewed the thread and came the their conclusions? Just because not everyone posts does not mean that they didn't see it and decide how they felt. One way or another.

Fatboy
11-26-2012, 05:21 PM
Did they have a pint together after??? I am sure that you know and was probably with them too.. SSSOOOOOOO


sadly i was not there, however I would have bought a round.:grin-square:

MahnaMahna
11-26-2012, 05:23 PM
Cool, more testicle dangling, maybe there will be some lubrication in the near future?

Jesters
11-26-2012, 05:23 PM
yeah man, the same guys F'ing with BB F'ed with me, Las Vegas Ward 6. Beleive me i know whats been going on, silly shit like fire sprinklers UNDER the bleacher seats-that cost $35K and more time, just when they are ready to sign off, nope more ball busting.....County workers busting balls to keep their jobs, I told Larry Vegas was a bad choice.
Did he know that you knew what you were talking about? If he did know and ignored you then I am afraid that his own fault. I know we are having words right now but I also have respect for you that you know what the deal is in Vegas and he should have listened to you or hired you as some kind of consultant.

JAM
11-26-2012, 05:24 PM
Cool, more testicle dangling, maybe there will be some lubrication in the near future?

And the trolls keep rolling, rolling, rolling along!

Lube this! :mad:

Fatboy
11-26-2012, 05:24 PM
No, this is wrong on several levels. Here's two: first off they need the hard core fan base, which would be us, and by extension, our fellow pool players whom we interact with at the pool hall and leagues, but who may not participate in online discussions. Think of us, if you will, as potential ambassadors of all things pool. At the minimum, because we are online, we are also the prime and logical potential PPV audience.

Second, anyone who had thought this halfway through would know that in the event sponsors, TV, or other parties take more than a passing interest in this endeavor they're going to do their due diligence and see what the hard core fan base thinks of the whole idea. And where do you think they're going to look to take the temperature? That's right -- they're going to look right here. And that's why it would have been a good idea to have developed and carefully executed a PR plan to win us all over right from the git-go. That's just being smart.

But somewhat obviously, that's not what's happening.

Lou Figueroa


Lou,

with all due respect I dont think there are enough pool players or hardcore fans left in pool to make a difference, cant even get 1000 viewers on a free stream, thats only 20 people per state. How sad is that? Pool is just to small to matter, it has to reach out to people who dont know what a cue is to work. I think thats too tall of a order.

pwd72s
11-26-2012, 05:27 PM
Lou,

with all due respect I dont think there are enough pool players or hardcore fans left in pool to make a difference, cant even get 1000 viewers on a free stream, thats only 20 people per state. How sad is that? Pool is just to small to matter, it has to reach out to people who dont know what a cue is to work. I think thats too tall of a order.

Bingo!.....

Rateking
11-26-2012, 05:29 PM
How many were negative and how many viewed the thread and came the their conclusions? Just because not everyone posts does not mean that they didn't see it and decide how they felt. One way or another.

I was just wondering what your number was before you followed the pack? or at least your recollection of a pack.

2? 5? wait...you said "the majority were saying" how many post before YOU were convinced by the forum?

MahnaMahna
11-26-2012, 05:30 PM
And the trolls keep rolling, rolling, rolling along!

Lube this! :mad:

..................

JAM
11-26-2012, 05:33 PM
..................

"Hello. My name is MahnaMahna, and I'm a troll-aholic. I'm happy to be here tonight."

lfigueroa
11-26-2012, 05:38 PM
Lou,

with all due respect I dont think there are enough pool players or hardcore fans left in pool to make a difference, cant even get 1000 viewers on a free stream, thats only 20 people per state. How sad is that? Pool is just to small to matter, it has to reach out to people who dont know what a cue is to work. I think thats too tall of a order.


Oh, I totally get that, Eric. But you have to think about it like having a short stack -- you don't automatically flush it down the toilet. For some reason all this reminds me of a quick story.

I drove up to Tahoe many years ago from San Francisco, in the middle of the night, in the snow, with my wingman, Jerry. We pulled into the parking lot of Harrahs at 730 in the morning and we were both busted by 8. We lasted exactly half an hour. So we're walking back to the parking lot and Jerry stops in the middle of the sidewalk and goes, "Look! I found a quarter in my pocket." And he just rears back and with all his strength flings it into the sky and says, "OK, now we're really busted."

Lou Figueroa

MahnaMahna
11-26-2012, 05:40 PM
"Hello. My name is MahnaMahna, and I'm a troll-aholic. I'm happy to be here tonight."

...................

JAM
11-26-2012, 05:43 PM
...................
......................

Fatboy
11-26-2012, 05:44 PM
Oh, I totally get that, Eric. But you have to think about it like having a short stack -- you don't automatically flush it down the toilet. For some reason all this reminds me of a quick story.

I drove up to Tahoe many years ago from San Francisco, in the middle of the night, in the snow, with my wingman, Jerry. We pulled into the parking lot of Harrahs at 730 in the morning and we were both busted by 8. We lasted exactly half an hour. So we're walking back to the parking lot and Jerry stops in the middle of the sidewalk and goes, "Look! I found a quarter in my pocket." And he just rears back and with all his strength flings it into the sky and says, "OK, now we're really busted."

Lou Figueroa

i might have been there that night-I spent lots of time at Harrahs from 89-91 with a friend who was a degenerate 21 player, it was fun for sure.



At the end of the day I hope BB works, its the brightest spot in pool right now. Its not predicated on internet gambling like the IPT was, I dont know what its predicated on, but I have watched this thing for almost 3 years come to life and they have put blood sweat and tears into it not to mention the $$$, I wish Larry, Barry and Co the best and of course the players.

dorabelle
11-26-2012, 05:45 PM
I think AZ needs a no holds barred fight thread.

lfigueroa
11-26-2012, 05:46 PM
i might have been there that night-I spent lots of time at Harrahs from 89-91 with a friend who was a degenerate 21 player, it was fun for sure.



At the end of the day I hope BB works, its the brightest spot in pool right now. Its not predicated on internet gambling like the IPT was, I dont know what its predicated on, but I have watched this thing for almost 3 years come to life and they have put blood sweat and tears into it not to mention the $$$, I wish Larry, Barry and Co the best and of course the players.


I wish them the best too.

Lou Figueroa

Fatboy
11-26-2012, 05:47 PM
I think AZ needs a no holds barred fight thread.


I agree, since everyone is scared to bet in the pool rooms we might as well fight here!!!!! we all cant be as lucky as the Englishmen:p

MahnaMahna
11-26-2012, 05:51 PM
I think AZ needs a no holds barred fight thread.

I suggested this a long time ago! Call it "The Hate Tank", completely un-moderated trash talking craziness!

dorabelle
11-26-2012, 05:51 PM
I agree, since everyone is scared to bet in the pool rooms we might as well fight here!!!!! we all cant be as lucky as the Englishmen:p

We could even find a way to sweat the fight threads. It could save pool.

cookie man
11-26-2012, 05:54 PM
What needs to be done is contact all league operators of all leagues, and get this streamed in the busiest pool halls and bars, on the busiest league nights. People act like if it's publicized an AZ everyone knows but the truth is I played in the largest APA league in the country and you could probably count the number of players on one hand who know about AZ. The amateur leagues should be the target audience and the marketing should be aggressive.

MahnaMahna
11-26-2012, 05:57 PM
......................

...............

The Saw
11-26-2012, 05:59 PM
I think AZ needs a no holds barred fight thread.

I like it... But I don't think many would like it if those of us that "keep it real" while being pc, dropped the pc and rilly kept it real. Many would love it though... I would definitely slack off from work to tee off on a few people. Haaahaaa

dorabelle
11-26-2012, 06:05 PM
I like it... But I don't think many would like it if those of us that "keep it real" while being pc, dropped the pc and rilly kept it real. Many would love it though... I would definitely slack off from work to tee off on a few people. Haaahaaa

That's the Beauty of it, they can stay away from it. It'll keep the other threads clean.

jay helfert
11-26-2012, 06:07 PM
I found Fu on Google: #2 pool player in the world Fu Xiao Fang. Who'd have thunk it?

Is she a member of Bonus Ball?


I'm starting my own team and Fu...ey on all of you...ey! :p

Fatboy
11-26-2012, 06:20 PM
I'm starting my own team and Fu...ey on all of you...ey! :p


Get'em Jay!!!!!!

hope your good buddy,

Dinner is on me, remember that real nice joint we went to that time, lets hit that again, i havent been there since we went like 2 years ago

ribdoner
11-26-2012, 06:26 PM
Yeah, ain't that the truth. That and a dollar won't buy me a cup of Starbucks. :p


would you settle for a couple of wheatbucks??

RobMan
11-26-2012, 07:02 PM
What needs to be done is contact all league operators of all leagues, and get this streamed in the busiest pool halls and bars, on the busiest league nights. People act like if it's publicized an AZ everyone knows but the truth is I played in the largest APA league in the country and you could probably count the number of players on one hand who know about AZ. The amateur leagues should be the target audience and the marketing should be aggressive.


What cookie said! Most of the league players don't have a clue who the pros are much less the game. Stream it. Have fun "teaching" tourneys for the players. Give away free table time or food coupons for the winners. Something simple! Play the six pocket version. Lots of ways to promote it on the local level.

Just my attempt to get this drama laden thread back on topic. :rolleyes:

Mark Griffin
11-26-2012, 07:20 PM
WOW - did this ever goet off track!

(Look what happens when I don't pay attention - LOL)

I think everyone wants Bonus Ball to do good.
It would be good for pool.

All I know is that I had posted a thread way back on page #2 - just saying it would be nice if the management of BB would let people know if and when any more delays are caused. That way some mutual respect can be shown between all aspects of pool, and other events can be scheduled around them.

And then it all went KABOOM!!!!!

I did not expect the level of animosity that I have seen here.
A lot of interesting viewpoints for sure - but still all I want is some level of communication between various interests - after all we are all about pool!!

I am still saying the same thing - and hopefully everything will work out for everyone.

Mark Griffin

JCIN
11-26-2012, 08:37 PM
This thread has jumped the shark so......


http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8064/8220963551_e9cbf6be51_b.jpg

JB Cases
11-26-2012, 08:43 PM
No, this is wrong on several levels. Here's two: first off they need the hard core fan base, which would be us, and by extension, our fellow pool players whom we interact with at the pool hall and leagues, but who may not participate in online discussions. Think of us, if you will, as potential ambassadors of all things pool. At the minimum, because we are online, we are also the prime and logical potential PPV audience.

Second, anyone who had thought this halfway through would know that in the event sponsors, TV, or other parties take more than a passing interest in this endeavor they're going to do their due diligence and see what the hard core fan base thinks of the whole idea. And where do you think they're going to look to take the temperature? That's right -- they're going to look right here. And that's why it would have been a good idea to have developed and carefully executed a PR plan to win us all over right from the git-go. That's just being smart.

But somewhat obviously, that's not what's happening.

Lou Figueroa

Actually no, they don't need the hard-core fan base. They need viewers and many more than the billiard industry can provide.

AZ has a certain amount of reach but not nearly as much as some people on AZ think it does.

But I do fully agree that it would have been smarter to do some public relations work to get the hard-core behind the project. I happen to think that this game has some potential and I am not generally a fan of "new" games. But this is a true skill game and the pro-version with three pockets is a tough game. The regular version is tough as well but the pro-version really brings a lot of one pocket into it.

So it would have been better to spend some time getting people acclimated with Bonus Ball beforehand and to get them on board. Spend a little money holding $500 added Bonus Ball tournaments across the country and get the amateurs into it so that they know the game before it ever shows up professionally.

I believe such a grassroots strategy would have paid nice dividends. But at the end of the day the success of BB doesn't depend on us any more than the success of 9 Ball, One Pocket, 10 Ball etc has depended. If the "support" of the die hard fans is anything to go by then BB has no chance considering where pool is with the known games.

When the IPT was airing I couldn't even get the pool rooms to turn it one when it aired. People wanted to watch other sports in the pool room other than pool. Now that said I have a TON of ideas how to make it interactive and get pool room owners and pool players interested but no one is asking me and experience has shown that once people have their own vision and plan they aren't much interested in trying anyone else's ideas.

Ktown D
11-26-2012, 09:11 PM
This thread has jumped the shark so......


http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8064/8220963551_e9cbf6be51_b.jpg

Gottdang right.......

Best post in this entire steaming thread. Good boy.....;)

vagabond
11-26-2012, 10:16 PM
What would the mosconi cup look like if BB wasn't delayed? Would mosconi have lost half it's players?


No, not at all. The players that are supposed to play in Mosconic cup will definitely be seen at Mosconi cup. Their place will be filled by the alternates in the scheduled Bonus Ball matches.

Hungarian
11-26-2012, 10:41 PM
Someone well versed in Judo will often times prevail vs a boxer. Did you put a lock hold on him and grapple him to the ground?

[QUOTE=lee brett;3879425] i done ju jitsu and judo, not boxing.QUOTE]

The Renfro
11-26-2012, 10:44 PM
Really waiting to see the new schedule...

I know Shannon Daulton and Scott Frost were off the weekend of the Accu-Stats "Make it happen" One pocket event scheduled for March 28th-31st... Now we will have to see the new schedule and see who the top vote getters end up being.....

Gotta love building inspectors or government in general for making life tougher to keep the wheels of cash flow turning....

nathandumoulin
11-26-2012, 10:56 PM
Really waiting to see the new schedule...

The new schedule should be posted in about an hour. I haven't had a chance to see what events conflict with who, but I do know that the schedule was made with a random draw. Conflicts are guaranteed here and there, but at least this way it's fair to everyone.

The Renfro
11-26-2012, 11:01 PM
The new schedule should be posted in about an hour. I haven't had a chance to see what events conflict with who, but I do know that the schedule was made with a random draw. Conflicts are guaranteed here and there, but at least this way it's fair to everyone.

Thanks Nathan :thumbup:

Hopefully the luck of the draw pans out =)

Now go knock it out of the park!!!

Chris

Mr. Bond
11-26-2012, 11:44 PM
to the tune of: "(walkin in a) winter wonderland"


bonus balls, are ya listenin?
here we wait, for all the glitz'n...

its a shame that tonight,
there's no pool in sight...
waitin for the bonus wonderland.

gone away, is the 8-ball..
here to stay, is the 'great' ball...

they sing a good song,
but its taking too long,
we're waiting for the bonus wonderland.

in a warehouse they can build a studio..
and spend a half a mil on cams alone...
but when its time to play they'll tell you "no, dude..."
"..cuz we need to ask the bosses for a loan"

later on, we'll conspire...
and we'll try, to get him fired...
the ninny who drove, bonus ball off the road,
waiting for the bonus wonderland

:p



all in good fun gentlemen, no threatening emails por favor

nathandumoulin
11-27-2012, 01:20 AM
Thanks Nathan :thumbup:

Chris, the new schedule's been posted. Also expect a press release and a website update tomorrow that will contain a more thorough explanation of the delay.

And to clarify, the press release will not address any of the concerns that the "pool community" expressed in this thread. The delay is just that, a delay. We will continue forward as planned, and in truth, this delay just buys me time to make the production even better.

Today Larry, Dave and I made a boardroom style presentation to the 35 players. When I was done my part, the players all began to cheer and applaud. Tell me one time that's ever happened. :)

Anyone who doubts this endevour will be in for a surprise when they see what's in store. ;)

to the tune of: "(walkin in a) winter wonderland"

lol, nice. I actually chuckled at this one. A little humor never hurts.

Ghosst
11-27-2012, 01:51 AM
... ... ... ...

JCIN
11-27-2012, 02:04 AM
When I was done my part, the players all began to cheer and applaud. Tell me one time that's ever happened. :)



July 21, 2006 Las Vegas, Nevada. IPT North American Open Eight-ball Championship players meeting.

You asked.

nathandumoulin
11-27-2012, 02:10 AM
July 21, 2006 Las Vegas, Nevada. IPT North American Open Eight-ball Championship players meeting.

You asked.

Perhaps. But the difference here is that I never mentioned a dollar.

derekdisco
11-27-2012, 03:06 AM
This thread has jumped the shark so......


http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8064/8220963551_e9cbf6be51_b.jpg

You and Mark can BS everyone all you want about how "I hope it succeeds, it'll help pool, blah blah" Bullcrap. I have more riding on this than anyone, I need Bonus ball to be a huge success for a long time, or else this bonus ball tattoo I got on my left titty is all for nothing.






































































































http://oi50.tinypic.com/10poen9.jpg

ScottR
11-27-2012, 06:59 AM
^^^^^^^^^^

Now THAT is funny!!!

Scott

JAM
11-27-2012, 08:14 AM
July 21, 2006 Las Vegas, Nevada. IPT North American Open Eight-ball Championship players meeting.

You asked.

November 29, 2005, at the Orange County Conference Center in Orlando, Florida, at the King of the Hill 8-Ball Shootout players meeting, the attendees erupted in loud cheer and applause several times. At the end, there was a standing ovation.

CreeDo
11-27-2012, 09:49 AM
I suggested this a long time ago! Call it "The Hate Tank", completely un-moderated trash talking craziness!

You can just click on any random thread longer than 3 pages and see exactly that.

I'm not saying we need mods censoring things, but seeing people act with a little SELF-restraint would be a breath of fresh air.

Slinging troll memes back and forth like a couple of 11 year olds, bonus ball reps getting into the forum equivalent of bar fights, with the regulars egging them on and posting rumors and trash talk...

Seriously... here's your hardcore fanbase, sponsors. Now figure out what you can sell them. Probably not a car or life insurance. Maybe a gift card to hot topic, X-ray specs or spanish fly.

Johnnyt
11-27-2012, 09:56 AM
All I asked was if the player's were under contract. I got my answer on the 1st and 3rd reply. Then comes the derailment. WTF. Johnnyt

Majic
11-27-2012, 10:03 AM
All I asked was if the player's were under contract. I got my answer on the 1st and 3rd reply. Then comes the derailment. WTF. Johnnyt

That's the pool world man.

Ghosst
11-27-2012, 10:07 AM
All I asked was if the player's were under contract. I got my answer on the 1st and 3rd reply. Then comes the derailment. WTF. Johnnyt

I tried to figure out how we got here about an hour ago and realized the unsolicited smarmy comment in reply #3 set it off. They dug the hole deeper as they went. Good representation of the business, but hey, I was a possible paying subscriber, what does my opinion matter?



.

JB Cases
11-27-2012, 10:15 AM
Dear God where are the Mods when you need them!!! I am scarred for life now and also disappointed that you covered up the Wave Case tat you promised me you would keep forever....


You and Mark can BS everyone all you want about how "I hope it succeeds, it'll help pool, blah blah" Bullcrap. I have more riding on this than anyone, I need Bonus ball to be a huge success for a long time, or else this bonus ball tattoo I got on my left titty is all for nothing.






































































































http://oi50.tinypic.com/10poen9.jpg

JCIN
11-27-2012, 10:15 AM
http://oi50.tinypic.com/10poen9.jpg

Thats not a tattoo. Thats a sweater with a sticker on it.

JAM
11-27-2012, 10:18 AM
Gosh, I sure do wish I had an 80-inch computer monitor, which would allow me to see an entire picture. :grin:

JCIN
11-27-2012, 10:20 AM
You can just click on any random thread longer than 3 pages and see exactly that.

I'm not saying we need mods censoring things, but seeing people act with a little SELF-restraint would be a breath of fresh air.

Slinging troll memes back and forth like a couple of 11 year olds, bonus ball reps getting into the forum equivalent of bar fights, with the regulars egging them on and posting rumors and trash talk...

Seriously... here's your hardcore fanbase, sponsors. Now figure out what you can sell them. Probably not a car or life insurance. Maybe a gift card to hot topic, X-ray specs or spanish fly.

Looks like we are at the point in the thread where people forget how the internet works.

Next stop is puppy pictures or death threats. Could go either way.

JCIN
11-27-2012, 10:23 AM
All I asked was if the player's were under contract. I got my answer on the 1st and 3rd reply. Then comes the derailment. WTF. Johnnyt

Johnny if you got your answer in the first three posts why would you care what happens after that?

JAM
11-27-2012, 10:26 AM
Here's the first day Mickey came into our lives. Isn't he a cute puppy?! :lovies:

Notice one does not have to scroll from left to right to view the entire picture. :wink:

JCIN
11-27-2012, 10:35 AM
Here's the first day Mickey came into our lives. Isn't he a cute puppy?! :lovies:

Notice one does not have to scroll from left to right to view the entire picture. :wink:

Thats a good looking puppy.

I'm tempted to threaten his life just so we cover all the bases.

Ghosst
11-27-2012, 10:38 AM
I could enlarge the titanic picture if you like. And put it in the bottom right corner of an even larger white background. No one would be silly enough to quote that on each page...

JCIN
11-27-2012, 10:39 AM
I could enlarge the titanic picture if you like. And put it in the bottom right corner of an even larger white background. No one would be silly enough to quote that on each page...

Try me....

JAM
11-27-2012, 10:40 AM
Thats a good looking puppy.

I'm tempted to threaten his life just so we cover all the bases.

He's got a bodyguard.

Ghosst
11-27-2012, 10:48 AM
Okie Dokie.

JCIN
11-27-2012, 10:49 AM
He's got a bodyguard.

Before I saw the orange muzzles I thought that was a 5 year old with a sawed off and strangely enough the next thought was how cool it would be if it was.