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Keystone87
11-25-2012, 05:53 PM
Was wondering how a 12.75mm shaft will perform as opposed to a 13.2mm? ...Thinking of ordering a predator shaft in the future and I saw the possibility of getting a fat 314. I've played with a Joss that had a thicker shaft on it before and liked the way it felt...I have long skinny fingers and hands. So any opinions on the pros and cons of this would be appreciated, thank you guys.

iusedtoberich
11-25-2012, 06:13 PM
It really is all personal preference. Any shaft can perform any task, save perhaps jump shots. The top pros play with any combination of diameter, tip, and taper imaginable, and they can all make the same shots.

If you have the chance, try to find the shaft locally, and see how it feels in your fingers.

BTW, I also have long skinny fingers... I'm 6-3 tall and very skinny. For me, I play with a 12.75mm 314, and I like how it feels.

My personal preference also heavily favors low deflection/squirt shafts. But again, that's just a preference, and you will find many that feel the opposite.

Good luck.

ENGLISH!
11-25-2012, 06:24 PM
For what it's worth, I learned to play with a 13mm conical European taper house cue that I hade made into a sneaky pete. I then went to a 13mm pro taper cue. I am now playing with 2 - 12.75mm LD shafts w/ pro taper & I am in the market for a 11.75mm shaft with a conical European taper.

Al that being said, I think it depends what style do you play. Do you use side spin much if at all, etc.

I personally prefer the conical European taper. Firstly I never liked a whippy feeling shaft as The Muecci's used to be. Conical/European tapers have a firmer feel than the pro tapers. Secondly, I do not use a very tight closed bridge as I do not like the rubbing drag on the fleshy parts of the fingers. Hence the conical/ European taper. It is looser in the back & forth of the stroke but then tightens up near contact & through the CB.

I have tried one with a 11.75mm tip & have found that I like the smaller tip as I can even fine tune my tip position even better than with the 12.75 tips.

I have what is called a medium cadet golf glove sized hand. Cadet means larger palm to finger ratio.

I hope this gives you 'food for thought' & ultimately helps you in your decision.

Best Wishes & Regards,

Patrick Johnson
11-25-2012, 10:16 PM
Was wondering how a 12.75mm shaft will perform as opposed to a 13.2mm? ...Thinking of ordering a predator shaft in the future and I saw the possibility of getting a fat 314. I've played with a Joss that had a thicker shaft on it before and liked the way it felt...I have long skinny fingers and hands. So any opinions on the pros and cons of this would be appreciated, thank you guys.
The only objective performance difference will be that a smaller diameter shaft might squirt a little less. I think everything other than that (maybe even that) will be personal preference.

One personal preference that you might not think of is that even a half millimeter smaller is noticable to your eye - you might feel like you can see better exactly where you're hitting the cue ball, which is a good thing even if it's just an impression (because it will prompt you to pay closer attention).

pj
chgo

Keystone87
11-26-2012, 02:57 AM
thank you guys for all the help and opinions it is much appreciated. This was my first thread on AZ and it was a nice welcome indeed to see multiple replies.

naji
11-26-2012, 04:21 AM
Was wondering how a 12.75mm shaft will perform as opposed to a 13.2mm? ...Thinking of ordering a predator shaft in the future and I saw the possibility of getting a fat 314. I've played with a Joss that had a thicker shaft on it before and liked the way it felt...I have long skinny fingers and hands. So any opinions on the pros and cons of this would be appreciated, thank you guys.

My advice start with 13 or higher DIA shafts until you master your stroke, otherwise, you are going to have hard time adjusting to small tip. Basically straight or near straight shots. If you have no issue with that then i'd say 12 mm or smaller since their deflection (squirt) is not noticeable for most shots, and seem that swerve cancels squirt at smaller dia. For extreme english pay attention to how shaft is parallel to line of CB to OB if you notice you are pivoted adjust to minimize squirt, and cue elevation so you adjust for swerve if needed.
Best of luck.

Zippo
11-26-2012, 06:39 AM
Was wondering how a 12.75mm shaft will perform as opposed to a 13.2mm? ...Thinking of ordering a predator shaft in the future and I saw the possibility of getting a fat 314. I've played with a Joss that had a thicker shaft on it before and liked the way it felt...I have long skinny fingers and hands. So any opinions on the pros and cons of this would be appreciated, thank you guys.

In my experience is easier to pocket balls with a larger diameter tip.
Recently I made an experiment with a couple of 314s shafts. Same diameter at the ferrule,same thread, same weight and same tip brand. The only difference was the tip diameter. (I used a willards machine and didn't know that it will tapper the tip) The first tip was 12mm and the second was 12.5mm. It was way easier to play with the 12.5mm one. The next day I replaced the 12mm with a 12.75mm tip. It was noticeable easier to pocket balls with the 12.75 compared to the 12.50

Patrick Johnson
11-26-2012, 06:47 AM
In my experience is easier to pocket balls with a larger diameter tip.
Recently I made an experiment with a couple of 314s shafts. Same diameter at the ferrule,same thread, same weight and same tip brand. The only difference was the tip diameter. (I used a willards machine and didn't know that it will tapper the tip) The first tip was 12mm and the second was 12.5mm. It was way easier to play with the 12.5mm one. The next day I replaced the 12mm with a 12.75mm tip. It was noticeable easier to pocket balls with the 12.75 compared to the 12.50
There's no objective reason this should be true - must be a personal thing.

pj
chgo

AlexandruM
11-26-2012, 06:52 AM
12.75 mm is OK for average player.

Pidge
11-26-2012, 09:57 AM
12.75 mm is OK for average player.
So no player above or below the "average" threshold uses a 12.75mm tip?

it seems the main reasons to go for a smaller tip diameter are because the end mass is reduced which aids the reduction of squirt. It reduces the amount of CB blocked by the tip. Taper preference; 11.5mm tip will usually come with a conical taper and 13mm usually with a pro taper.

A 13mm tip has the same size contact area as a 11mm tip given that both tips have the same curvature and hardness. A smaller tip diameter will not make you put unintentional english on the CB (you can thank your stroke for that!). If you hit 2mm to the right of where you intended a 13mm and 11.5mm will still impart the same amount of spin.

Back to the original question though; the 12.75 and 13.2mm 314 shafts should both have the same taper (I may be wrong) and the only difference in the two would be the end mass. The FAT shaft should produce slightly more squirt in theory and I don't know you level of play but squirt can always be compensated for. If you have the chance to go to a billiards store and try both shafts out before you buy that's the only way you're going to know what you prefer.

Regards

naji
11-26-2012, 10:09 AM
There's no objective reason this should be true - must be a personal thing.

pj
chgo

There is Pat, those that do not bring tip at pause all the way to almost touch CB are into big surprise to where the tip contact point is when they fire, or when elevated near a rail shot. So unless a shooter has flawless stroke he or she will have issue with small tip, but eventually will get adjusted to it.
My 2 cents.

Pidge
11-26-2012, 10:18 AM
There is Pat, those that do not bring tip at pause all the way to almost touch CB are into big surprise to where the tip contact point is when they fire, or when elevated near a rail shot. So unless a shooter has flawless stroke he or she will have issue with small tip, but eventually will get adjusted to it.
My 2 cents.
I'm going to have to disagree with you. The size in tip diameter makes no difference in the ability to make a ball. It doesn't take a PhD to line the tip up to where you want to contact the CB regardless of the size of the tip. And if you are not hitting the CB where intended it has nothing to do with tip size, purely a flaw in you stroke.

naji
11-26-2012, 10:20 AM
So no player above or below the "average" threshold uses a 12.75mm tip?

it seems the main reasons to go for a smaller tip diameter are because the end mass is reduced which aids the reduction of squirt. It reduces the amount of CB blocked by the tip. Taper preference; 11.5mm tip will usually come with a conical taper and 13mm usually with a pro taper.

A 13mm tip has the same size contact area as a 11mm tip given that both tips have the same curvature and hardness. A smaller tip diameter will not make you put unintentional english on the CB (you can thank your stroke for that!). If you hit 2mm to the right of where you intended a 13mm and 11.5mm will still impart the same amount of spin.

Back to the original question though; the 12.75 and 13.2mm 314 shafts should both have the same taper (I may be wrong) and the only difference in the two would be the end mass. The FAT shaft should produce slightly more squirt in theory and I don't know you level of play but squirt can always be compensated for. If you have the chance to go to a billiards store and try both shafts out before you buy that's the only way you're going to know what you prefer.

Regards

The only time you have issue with any tip really is when your standard way of playing you keep tip 2 or 3" or more from CB during pause, when you fire the shot, it is almost guaranteed your tip contact point is a little off than intended. With smaller tip it is amplified, with larger tip you will be closer to the target. Remember tip flattens out during tip contact. But eventually you will learn to adjust.

naji
11-26-2012, 10:24 AM
I'm going to have to disagree with you. The size in tip diameter makes no difference in the ability to make a ball. It doesn't take a PhD to line the tip up to where you want to contact the CB regardless of the size of the tip. And if you are not hitting the CB where intended it has nothing to do with tip size, purely a flaw in you stroke.

You are saying the same thing as i am saying, read my post to the end.

12squared
11-26-2012, 10:37 AM
Was wondering how a 12.75mm shaft will perform as opposed to a 13.2mm? ...Thinking of ordering a predator shaft in the future and I saw the possibility of getting a fat 314. I've played with a Joss that had a thicker shaft on it before and liked the way it felt...I have long skinny fingers and hands. So any opinions on the pros and cons of this would be appreciated, thank you guys.

Shaft no longer available.

Dave

EasyEJL
11-26-2012, 10:39 AM
effectively from what I've noticed myself in shooting with a friends 10.5mm up to a 13mm and a few inbetween, the larger the tip the more forgiving a cue is of your errors, the smaller the less forgiving. Also, from what I've seen

A 13mm tip has the same size contact area as a 11mm tip given that both tips have the same curvature

may be true technically but most smaller cue tips tend to get shaped to a dime curve vs nickel curve, so they generally aren't the same.

Pidge
11-26-2012, 10:47 AM
What you are saying is, the smaller tip misses the intended contact point by more because it is smaller. Right?

For example; your stroke dictates that you will always move the tip 3mm to the right than where you wanted to contact the CB. You will be judging your contact by the centre of the tip, so 3mm to the right from centre is where both the centre of a 13mm and a 11mm tip will contact.

The idea of the tip flattening at contact is true, but regardless of tip diameter the amount of "flattening" is determined by the hardness and curvature of the tip. A 13mm and 11mm with exactly the same curvature and hardness will compress and "flatten" exactly the same and thus the contact area between the tip and CB will be the same size for both sizes.

Going back to what PJ originally said - there is no objective reason why a larger tip diameter makes it easier to make balls, it must be a personal preference.

I mean I may be wrong, I'm tired. But I have 99.9% confidence in what I've said throughout this post.

Jeff M
11-26-2012, 10:49 AM
My GF recently bought me a Lucasi Hybrid with a 11.75mm. I only had played with a 12.75mm before that. I have to say, I love the difference in cueball control it gives me. Less effort to do just as much and more.

Zippo
11-26-2012, 11:14 AM
Well, some months ago I used to practice everyday. The first drill I always did was a straight in shot with the OB in the middle of the table and the cue ball in a corner trying to pocket the ball in the oposite corner (just like the first shot of Bert Kinister's "60 minutes workout") With the Z2 my average success rate was 16 out of 20 tries. Only a couple of times I made 20/20. With the 314 my average success rate was 19 with a lot of 20s. Stroke problem?... sure, but the cold plain numbers tell me that it's easier to pocket balls with the 314 shaft compared to the Z2.

Patrick Johnson
11-26-2012, 11:24 AM
...when...contact point is a little off than intended. With smaller tip it is amplified, with larger tip you will be closer to the target.
There's no difference. Except with extreme english you're using the same part of the tip.

Remember tip flattens out during tip contact. But eventually you will learn to adjust.
No difference (based on tip size) in how much the tip flattens either.

pj
chgo

ronscuba
11-26-2012, 02:53 PM
I also find a thicker shaft more forgiving. It's not just me. Others in this thread have experienced it. As have my wife and friends.

I don't know the exact scientific reason, but the results are real, repeatable and experienced by many. There is definitely something going on here.

I suspect it has something to do with the thinner shaft being slightly more difficult to stroke straight for beginners and intermediate players. But I cannot really say. My knowledge of physics and human physiology is very limited.

EasyEJL
11-26-2012, 03:16 PM
I also find a thicker shaft more forgiving. It's not just me. Others in this thread have experienced it. As have my wife and friends.

I don't know the exact scientific reason, but the results are real, repeatable and experienced by many. There is definitely something going on here.

I suspect it has something to do with the thinner shaft being slightly more difficult to stroke straight for beginners and intermediate players. But I cannot really say. My knowledge of physics and human physiology is very limited.

yeah, that's what I would say from having watched + played with tip size. If you are a 4 or lower on APA, a significantly smaller tip will expose weakness in your stroke and you will shoot worse. If you are above a 6, it probably makes no difference, and to some 5s it does, some it doesn't.

But for the original poster, the difference between 13.2 + 12.75 is pretty minimal vs 13.2 to 11.75. figure 1/2 a mm is only around a 3-4% difference. Its going much smaller than that where you really see it, going to 11.75 is an over 11% difference. So I doubt you'd have much hardship moving to the 12.75, which I wasn't so clear on earlier. But you may want to check out who you know at your local pool hall, and find someone with a standard pro taper 12.75 tip to see how it feels shooting a few balls. Or local billiards store.

TSW
11-26-2012, 03:30 PM
With a shaft smaller than 12.75mm I can't get a really tight closed bridge. The shaft will have some room to wobble, which defeats the purpose of a closed bridge.

ENGLISH!
11-26-2012, 04:17 PM
With a shaft smaller than 12.75mm I can't get a really tight closed bridge. The shaft will have some room to wobble, which defeats the purpose of a closed bridge.

TSW,

Have the smaller tips you've tried been on pro taper or conical/European taper shaft. I personally do not like the rubbing friction on the fleshy parts ofa tight closed bridge. But with a conical/European taper the back & forward strokes can feel loose but at contact & through the CB it tightens up. Most 'standard' small tips are on conical/ European taper shafts.

Regards,

TSW
11-26-2012, 04:23 PM
TSW,

Have the smaller tips you've tried been on pro taper or conical/European taper shaft. I personally do not like the rubbing friction on the fleshy parts ofa tight closed bridge. But with a conical/European taper the back & forward strokes can feel loose but at contact & through the CB it tightens up. Most 'standard' small tips are on conical/ European taper shafts.

Regards,

I've tried both and still prefer a standard-sized tip (and pro taper, FWIW). I like the cue to be tight in my bridge all the way through the stroke. I think it helps me keep the cue on line for power shots. I can understand not liking the rubbing friction, however. Baby powder is a necessity on humid days.

Patrick Johnson
11-26-2012, 07:58 PM
ronscuba:
I also find a thicker shaft more forgiving. It's not just me. Others in this thread have experienced it. As have my wife and friends.

I don't know the exact scientific reason, but the results are real, repeatable and experienced by many. There is definitely something going on here.

I suspect it has something to do with the thinner shaft being slightly more difficult to stroke straight for beginners and intermediate players. But I cannot really say. My knowledge of physics and human physiology is very limited.
EasyEJL:
yeah, that's what I would say from having watched + played with tip size. If you are a 4 or lower on APA, a significantly smaller tip will expose weakness in your stroke and you will shoot worse. If you are above a 6, it probably makes no difference, and to some 5s it does, some it doesn't.

But for the original poster, the difference between 13.2 + 12.75 is pretty minimal vs 13.2 to 11.75. figure 1/2 a mm is only around a 3-4% difference. Its going much smaller than that where you really see it, going to 11.75 is an over 11% difference. So I doubt you'd have much hardship moving to the 12.75, which I wasn't so clear on earlier. But you may want to check out who you know at your local pool hall, and find someone with a standard pro taper 12.75 tip to see how it feels shooting a few balls. Or local billiards store.
TSW:
With a shaft smaller than 12.75mm I can't get a really tight closed bridge. The shaft will have some room to wobble, which defeats the purpose of a closed bridge.
The different feel of a smaller shaft, especially with a conical taper, could be a distraction until you're accustomed to it - maybe enough to make you miss more shots, at least temporarily. I use a small conical shaft with an open and closed bridge, don't notice the size or taper any more and find it to be more accurate.

I don't think a short term comparison is reliable. I'm sure players who use smaller shafts don't miss more generally than players who don't - if they did smaller shafts wouldn't be trending.

pj
chgo

Jeff M
11-26-2012, 11:35 PM
With a shaft smaller than 12.75mm I can't get a really tight closed bridge. The shaft will have some room to wobble, which defeats the purpose of a closed bridge.

I wasn't aware that bridge should be really "tight". I thought it was just supposed to stop if from lifting up too much. Am I misinformed fellow AZ'ers?

charlieeeh
11-26-2012, 11:42 PM
I wasn't aware that bridge should be really "tight". I thought it was just supposed to stop if from lifting up too much. Am I misinformed fellow AZ'ers?

I think a loose bridge is pretty useless. It should definitely eliminate horizontal movement, a bit of vertical is fine, but it should be relatively tight.

Jeff M
11-26-2012, 11:47 PM
I think a loose bridge is pretty useless. It should definitely eliminate horizontal movement, a bit of vertical is fine, but it should be relatively tight.

I didn't mean to imply something really loose, just not "really tight". Thanks for info.

Patrick Johnson
11-27-2012, 05:54 AM
I think a loose bridge is pretty useless.
So all those pros who use an open bridge are doing it wrong?

With a good stroke a tight bridge isn't necessary unless a loose one makes you nervous.

pj
chgo

ronscuba
11-27-2012, 08:03 AM
So all those pros who use an open bridge are doing it wrong?

With a good stroke a tight bridge isn't necessary unless a loose one makes you nervous.

pj
chgo

Pro's vs. Joe's. I'm a Joe. My stroke is not good enough to effectively use an open bridge on a draw shot or any shot involving a hard hit.

Maybe my flawed stroke is also a reason I find thicker shafts more forgiving.

Patrick Johnson
11-27-2012, 09:43 AM
My stroke is not good enough to effectively use an open bridge on a draw shot or any shot involving a hard hit.
I think your stroke would have to be pretty horrible to make an open bridge noticably less effective.

Maybe my flawed stroke is also a reason I find thicker shafts more forgiving.
A thicker shaft is presumably higher squirt than a thinner one, and that could make it a little more forgiving (because the higher squirt compensates a little better for small stroke errors). But I'm also guessing that you interpret what you experience through the lens of your expectations, self-fulfilling your prophecy to a degree.

pj
chgo

SUPERSTAR
11-27-2012, 10:56 AM
Thin and stiff is the magic formula.

Thin and not stiff, can get really ugly sometimes.

Maybe someone can chime on on why some some thinner shafts that people have taken down themselves, or have had some cue maker or cue repairman take down, "break down" on high power shots sometimes. (wood stability, diameter, or taper issues presumably)

Where they are fine at slow and medium speeds, but feel like you are playing with a wet noodle on high power shots where you miss absolutely everything, because the force of the shot and weight of the cueball are causing the shaft to bend way way more then if the shot was done at a more reasonable speed.

I am not talking about thin after market shafts for sale.
They pretty much have set standards for stability IMO.

Just wondering if someone can explain when a shaft becomes unplayable due to shaft flexibility being dependent on shot speed, and the inconsistency that can cause.

Just like when Oscar Dominguez gave up on that needle he used to use, for precisely this reason, opting for an after market shaft that had more stability.

TSW
11-27-2012, 11:23 AM
Any stroke shot can be made with an open bridge. Snooker players have demostrated this time and again.

That said, in pool, there must be some advantage (or perceived advantage) to the closed bridge. I can't think of a single pool player who doesn't use the closed bridge on some shots. Most tellingly, snooker players who move full-time to pool tend to adopt the closed bridge for certain shots (e.g., Allison Fisher), so clearly they think there is some benefit.

I like using the closed bridge on power shots. It makes me feel like I have more control. Maybe it's all psychological. I do notice that when I'm in dead stroke, I use an open bridge more frequently (although not exclusively). Not sure why that is. No matter what, if I use a closed bridge, I want it to be tight all around. Otherwise I'll just go to the open bridge and get a better sight line.

ENGLISH!
11-27-2012, 11:37 AM
Thin and stiff is the magic formula.

Thin and not stiff, can get really ugly sometimes.

Maybe someone can chime on on why some some thinner shafts that people have taken down themselves, or have had some cue maker or cue repairman take down, "break down" on high power shots sometimes. (wood stability, diameter, or taper issues presumably)

Where they are fine at slow and medium speeds, but feel like you are playing with a wet noodle on high power shots where you miss absolutely everything, because the force of the shot and weight of the cueball are causing the shaft to bend way way more then if the shot was done at a more reasonable speed.

I am not talking about thin after market shafts for sale.
They pretty much have set standards for stability IMO.

Just wondering if someone can explain when a shaft becomes unplayable due to shaft flexibility being dependent on shot speed, and the inconsistency that can cause.

Just like when Oscar Dominguez gave up on that needle he used to use, for precisely this reason, opting for an after market shaft that had more stability.

I had to sell a predator 314 Cat that had been 'juiced' sanded down. It was great in close quarters, 1/2 table or less, but on a 3/4 to full table shot it felt like playing with an old wooded arrow. Not only that, but with english on those longer shots the ball would swerve way more than any deflection/squirt. That is why I sold it. I did not want to 'completely' retrain my 'feel'.

Regards,

Pidge
11-27-2012, 11:40 AM
Any stroke shot can be made with an open bridge. Snooker players have demostrated this time and again.

That said, in pool, there must be some advantage (or perceived advantage) to the closed bridge. I can't think of a single pool player who doesn't use the closed bridge on some shots. Most tellingly, snooker players who move full-time to pool tend to adopt the closed bridge for certain shots (e.g., Allison Fisher), so clearly they think there is some benefit.

I like using the closed bridge on power shots. It makes me feel like I have more control. Maybe it's all psychological. I do notice that when I'm in dead stroke, I use an open bridge more frequently (although not exclusively). Not sure why that is. No matter what, if I use a closed bridge, I want it to be tight all around. Otherwise I'll just go to the open bridge and get a better sight line.
What I've noticed in the transition from snooker to pool is the difference in ball weight. When using a power stroke I've found there to be more SHAFT deflection in pool when using an open bridge. A tight closed bridge for me, reduces this somewhat. That being said, the only time I find my self using a closed bridge is when I'm hampered cueing around a ball. Its got to the stage where my bridge choice isn't a concious decision, it just happens. I have real issues on extreme draw shots with a closed bridge, my fat fingers won't allow me to get down low enough on the CB.

Has anyone tried using a closed bridge on an ash snooker cue? Besides the obvious size difference in shaft thickness the grain of the wood doesn't allow me for a smooth stroke with a tight closed bridge. It kind of snags on the grain.

ENGLISH!
11-27-2012, 11:49 AM
Any stroke shot can be made with an open bridge...That said, in pool, there must be some advantage (or perceived advantage) to the closed bridge.

In 'The Hustler', when Burt asked Eddie about the open bridge, after the broken thumbs, Eddie estimated that his game was only about 80% with the open bridge, meaning off 20%.

I would have to guess that came from Willie. but have not read the book so I don't know.

I use a closed bridge on all low CB contact shots & an open bridge for most High CB contact shots. I want to make sure that the cue stays low on low shots & I generally don't mind if it comes up a bit on high shots. So...I'm using it for vertical control rather than horizontal.

I have seen some bad hooking strokes even with a closed bridge. One still can apply BHE while using a closed bridge.

Just my $0.02.

Patrick Johnson
11-27-2012, 12:04 PM
When using a power stroke I've found there to be more SHAFT deflection in pool when using an open bridge. A tight closed bridge for me, reduces this somewhat.
My shaft jumps out of my open bridge fairly often - I've learned not to notice it. Since the CB is gone before it happens, it doesn't affect the shot and doesn't make me reluctant to use any speed or any kind of spin.

..the only time I find my self using a closed bridge is when I'm hampered cueing around a ball. Its got to the stage where my bridge choice isn't a concious decision, it just happens.
Both of these statements are true for me too.

I believe the "performance" differences between open and closed bridges are all psychological.

pj
chgo

Pidge
11-27-2012, 12:13 PM
My shaft jumps out of my open bridge fairly often - I've learned not to notice it. Since the CB is gone before it happens, it doesn't affect the shot and doesn't make me reluctant to use any speed or any kind of spin.


Both of these statements are true for me too.

I believe the "performance" differences between open and closed bridges are all psychological.

pj
chgo
My shaft jumps away every now and again too, and like you said, the CB is long gone. Fairly recently my stance has become forward weighted. It was a concious choice and it really drives the shaft into an open bridge so the shaft doesn't jump out near as often.

I agree with the performance differences being psycholigical and a person should go with what gives them the most confidence.

ronscuba
11-27-2012, 02:46 PM
I think your stroke would have to be pretty horrible to make an open bridge noticably less effective.

pj
chgo

???

Since I hit draw and power shots noticeably better with a closed bridge than open my stroke is horrible ? Guess it is because you say so.

Patrick Johnson
11-27-2012, 04:31 PM
I think your stroke would have to be pretty horrible to make an open bridge noticably less effective.

pj
chgo
ronscuba:
???

Since I hit draw and power shots noticeably better with a closed bridge than open my stroke is horrible ? Guess it is because you say so.
That was my way of saying it's probably not your stroke, but something else - like maybe a lack of confidence or some other distraction. But if you really need a closed bridge to control the cue, then your stroke is horrible.

pj
chgo

Bob Jewett
11-27-2012, 05:10 PM
That was my way of saying it's probably not your stroke, but something else - like maybe a lack of confidence or some other distraction. But if you really need a closed bridge to control the cue, then your stroke is horrible.
I partly agree with you but I think "horrible" is needlessly overstated. I have recently been practicing with an open bridge. My draw stroke in particular was bad because my grip hand was twisting or tightening at the wrong time. With a closed bridge defects in the back hand can be masked because the twist or lift is more or less stopped by the looped bridge finger.

Extreme power or even high power (as on draw shots) requires your back hand to be very, very good if you are using an open bridge.

So, if you have a limited amount of time that you can (or are willing to) work on your fundamentals, how much of it should you spend on perfecting your power arm? If you want to have a straight stroke without twist or lift, I think practice with an open bridge is the fastest way to improvement.

Patrick Johnson
11-27-2012, 09:18 PM
I partly agree with you but I think "horrible" is needlessly overstated. I have recently been practicing with an open bridge. My draw stroke in particular was bad because my grip hand was twisting or tightening at the wrong time. With a closed bridge defects in the back hand can be masked because the twist or lift is more or less stopped by the looped bridge finger.

Extreme power or even high power (as on draw shots) requires your back hand to be very, very good if you are using an open bridge.

So, if you have a limited amount of time that you can (or are willing to) work on your fundamentals, how much of it should you spend on perfecting your power arm? If you want to have a straight stroke without twist or lift, I think practice with an open bridge is the fastest way to improvement.
I guess "horrible" was a little much (sorry, ronscuba). I've had to work hard on my stroke and grip, but I never had a problem keeping my shaft in the "v" of my open bridge - maybe I was luckier than I thought.

pj
chgo

Ratta
11-28-2012, 02:46 AM
I partly agree with you but I think "horrible" is needlessly overstated. I have recently been practicing with an open bridge. My draw stroke in particular was bad because my grip hand was twisting or tightening at the wrong time. With a closed bridge defects in the back hand can be masked because the twist or lift is more or less stopped by the looped bridge finger.

Extreme power or even high power (as on draw shots) requires your back hand to be very, very good if you are using an open bridge.

So, if you have a limited amount of time that you can (or are willing to) work on your fundamentals, how much of it should you spend on perfecting your power arm? If you want to have a straight stroke without twist or lift, I think practice with an open bridge is the fastest way to improvement.

Great advice- Amen! :-)

Some people often lookin a bit strange, if you recommend open bridge to fix and detect some problems. For me also one of the best ways to fix some *stroke issues*. You ll immediatley see and discover issues :-)

bbb
11-28-2012, 05:08 AM
In 'The Hustler', when Burt asked Eddie about the open bridge, after the broken thumbs, Eddie estimated that his game was only about 80% with the open bridge, meaning off 20%.


Just my $0.02.

fwiw
although its been a long time since seeing the movie i took that line to mean eddie was 80% because of the rust and was coming back after not playing
not because he was using an open bridge

bbb
11-28-2012, 05:11 AM
I guess "horrible" was a little much (sorry, ronscuba). I've had to work hard on my stroke and grip, but I never had a problem keeping my shaft in the "v" of my open bridge - maybe I was luckier than I thought.

pj
chgo

imho you were luckier than you think
as mentioned above
i was advised to use an open bridge as a gauge for the straightness of my stroke
when the shaft flies off your hand if it goes to the right or left it shows you where your stroke is off straight
im not an instructor
i havent been playing that long
and im not a high level player

Patrick Johnson
11-28-2012, 05:59 AM
bbb:
i was advised to use an open bridge as a gauge for the straightness of my stroke
when the shaft flies off your hand if it goes to the right or left it shows you where your stroke is off straight
Yes, but the open bridge probably isn't contributing to the problem - just revealing it. You'd probably hit the ball bad with a closed bridge too, but the shaft just wouldn't fly up.

With an open bridge and a loose grip the shaft comes out of the v after contact even on good offcenter hits (if they're firm enough). An open bridge only contributes to the problem if it comes out of the v before contact.

pj
chgo

ENGLISH!
11-28-2012, 07:42 AM
fwiw
although its been a long time since seeing the movie i took that line to mean eddie was 80% because of the rust and was coming back after not playing
not because he was using an open bridge

bbb,

I have not seen the movie in a while either. I took it as & remember it as due to the bridge, but you may be right.

Although, if I simply took 8 weeks off, I doubt my game would fall off 20%. It's sort of like riding a bike. But... if I have been using a closed bridge for all low contact shots for years, which I do , & then had to shoot them with an open bridge, I could see it being a bit of a problem for a while, just from a comfort thing if nothing else.

Regards,

TSW
11-28-2012, 08:58 AM
Although, if I simply took 8 weeks off, I doubt my game would fall off 20%. It's sort of like riding a bike.


Have you ever taken 8 weeks off? Without so much as touching a cue? I bet your game would fall off by 20% right when you first come back.

Once I took 3 months off. My first day back, I was missing straight-in shots by half a diamond. Everything felt wrong.

The game comes back quickly, but I guarantee you it will take more than one session.