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Pangit
11-26-2012, 05:25 AM
Some "well heeled" Pool Aficionado's have been singing it's praises for awhile...the Tribe has spoken.

I "appreciate" someone trying to create a "new" game. A for effort. Kind of like this guy that talked about "his" new game "Kulay" Colors in Taglog.

elvicash
11-26-2012, 05:54 AM
I wish them luck but am not sure they have got it right yet,Only time will tell.
I hope they do not break the Derby by hogging up a lot of the players. They need to get a few weeks of play in and then have those players come in and dominate and also pump up the Bonus Ball hype while at the Derby. The word could be got out to alot of people who are potential BB purchasers.

Good luck Bonus Ball

vagabond
11-26-2012, 07:16 AM
The Dog will Hunt! yesterday, I visited the site along with Darren Appleton. There were construction delays. When the product is finished, it is going to turn out as a very fine product. Larry gave all the details. so much thought put in the planning. Larry already spent huge sum of $ that was never been heard in pool on US soil. Just to give an example- larry bought Cameras and paraphernalia for cameras costing him Eight Hundred thousands+ dollars. The man has Passion.

dorabelle
11-26-2012, 07:25 AM
The Dog will Hunt! yesterday, I visited the site along with Darren Appleton. There were construction delays. When the product is finished, it is going to turn out as a very fine product. Larry gave all the details. so much thought put in the planning. Larry already spent huge sum of $ that was never been heard in pool on US soil. Just to give an example- larry bought Cameras and paraphernalia for cameras costing him Eight Hundred thousands+ dollars. The man has Passion.

How are they going to generate revenue in the begining? PPV streams? I'm sorry I just can't see it.

punter
11-26-2012, 07:25 AM
I wish them luck. Even with deep pockets, you need someone to sell the product. The PR guy is not from pool, is rubbing many exisiting promoters the wrong way with his arrogance, and doesn't even have a link to their site on his sig line. You are taking a product that has been a difficult sell, and making it an even harder sell by creating a very different new game. Hope they are all geniuses.

dorabelle
11-26-2012, 07:29 AM
Yes Pinter you need people to sell it but more importantly you need people to buy it. Lots of people to be able to give the players a steady paycheck. I just hope they don't hurt too Many people in the Long run. It's already affected TAR. I was wondering why it was taking so long to see another TAR match. :(

punter
11-26-2012, 07:31 AM
Yes Pinter you need people to sell it but more importantly you need people to buy it. Lots of people to be able to give the players a steady paycheck. I just hope they don't hurt too Many people in the Long run. It's already affected TAR. I was wondering why it was taking so long to see another TAR match. :(

I'm punter, although sometimes I have a pint.

dorabelle
11-26-2012, 07:34 AM
I'm punter, although sometimes I have a pint.

Haha sorry, my iPhone doesn't know what a Punter is.

punter
11-26-2012, 07:38 AM
Haha sorry, my iPhone doesn't know what a Punter is.

No problem Dorabelle. just kidding.

JB Cases
11-26-2012, 07:56 AM
How are they going to generate revenue in the begining? PPV streams? I'm sorry I just can't see it.

Well, you can at least bet on it. :-)

Let them worry about it. If it goes great then it will be a game changer and five years from now we will all be matching up in Bonus Ball. If it flames out after the first season then we will have a bunch of BB footage and lots of people with smug I-told-ya-so attitudes. No big deal either way so we might as well hope for the positive outcome.

JAM
11-26-2012, 07:59 AM
Well, you can at least bet on it. :-)

Let them worry about it. If it goes great then it will be a game changer and five years from now we will all be matching up in Bonus Ball. If it flames out after the first season then we will have a bunch of BB footage and lots of people with smug I-told-ya-so attitudes. No big deal either way so we might as well hope for the positive outcome.

Exactly right, John, and I agree. Enjoy the ride while it's moving forward.

I'm still wondering, though, why they haven't paid Canadian Jim Wych for services rendered if they've got such deep pockets. To me, that stinks to high heaven.

dorabelle
11-26-2012, 08:05 AM
Well, you can at least bet on it. :-)

Let them worry about it. If it goes great then it will be a game changer and five years from now we will all be matching up in Bonus Ball. If it flames out after the first season then we will have a bunch of BB footage and lots of people with smug I-told-ya-so attitudes. No big deal either way so we might as well hope for the positive outcome.

Funny you say that. I was just tryin ro figure out the best way to go about the bet. Over a year? Players left over a year? Players all paid over a year....?

JoeyA
11-26-2012, 08:49 AM
It seems that Bonus Ball has it's share of detractors for various reasons. Personally, I think everyone should be hoping they make it and make it big.

Maybe Bonus Ball will make pool popular with the masses. That is all we can hope for. If it does, it will be good for all promoters and pool in general.

There's no doubt that television and advertising revenues are what will make Bonus Ball a success story or not.

dorabelle
11-26-2012, 09:18 AM
I wish them well too. It's math and it's looking like a lot more money is going out then coming in. I don't tie my emotions to math because no matter how much I hope or wish or have passion for something, math always wins. This stuff should be openly talked about, no one wants to see anyone lose money or major events that are already around be affected.
Every other game has tried to "make it" through TV. Didn't the IPT have big ties in TV?
The BB guys have obviously thought about all this stuff. Maybe they have something up their sleeves or super deep pockets.

Roger Long
11-26-2012, 10:34 AM
Exactly right, John, and I agree. Enjoy the ride while it's moving forward.

I'm still wondering, though, why they haven't paid Canadian Jim Wych for services rendered if they've got such deep pockets. To me, that stinks to high heaven.

Jenn:

You stated in the other thread that it was "rumored" that Jim Wych was owed money, and now you're stating it like it is fact.

Which is it?

Roger

Mr. Bond
11-26-2012, 10:40 AM
That dog, like every other dog, will have to earn respect to get it.

So, I wish them nothing but the best, for now.

JAM
11-26-2012, 10:42 AM
Jenn:

You stated in the other thread that it was "rumored" that Jim Wych was owed money, and now you're stating it like it is fact.

Which is it?

Roger

You are interpreting it that I am stating it as a fact, which is a normal forum trait when people twist words around to mean different things. It happens all the time, especially here in AzBilliards Land. Everybody has their own agenda.

I do notice in reading this forum that the majority of pool peeps and AzBilliards members from the fine State of Arizona is very much pro Bonus Ball. :D

Of course, maybe I am twisting words around to mean different things by this statement. :p

If you read the other thread correctly, then maybe you would be able to ascertain that I learned of this news from three different sources that Jim Wych was owed money from the Bonus Ball entity. IOW, this is hearsay. I have not spoken to Jim Wych, nor have I spoken to Bonus Ball.

Does this help clarify?

JCIN
11-26-2012, 10:56 AM
The Dog will Hunt! yesterday, I visited the site along with Darren Appleton. There were construction delays. When the product is finished, it is going to turn out as a very fine product. Larry gave all the details. so much thought put in the planning. Larry already spent huge sum of $ that was never been heard in pool on US soil. Just to give an example- larry bought Cameras and paraphernalia for cameras costing him Eight Hundred thousands+ dollars. The man has Passion.

$800K on cameras?

The man has something all right.

cleary
11-26-2012, 11:09 AM
$800K on cameras?

The man has something all right.

$800k. oh boy...

http://popgoestheweek.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/titanic.jpg

DrOnePocket
11-26-2012, 11:16 AM
$800K on cameras?

The man has something all right.

Quick.... How many PPV stream would you have to sell @ $9.95 per to break even?

I' surprised you didnt invest :rolleyes:

lfigueroa
11-26-2012, 11:29 AM
IMO, BB is DOA.

They are throwing cash at the project, true, but from what I've read here, they are doing so without a true understanding of the game and its players. (Other than: if you pay them, they will come.). I think one of the prime mistakes they are making is trying to force feed the game (BB) from the top down,when they should have spent some of their dough building interest and support for the game at the grass roots. A secondary issue is having all the teams and matches play in Las Vegas and not generating support in the cities these guys are supposed to be representing.

Also, presenting their case here amongst the hardcore, with substantial chip on shoulder, is doing their organization and product incalculable harm in terms of lost goodwill in the industry.

Some key BB representatives don't seem to understand any of that.

Lou Figueroa

xplor
11-26-2012, 11:30 AM
In the words of the late Gorilla Monsoon : KAYFABE , BABY

peteypooldude
11-26-2012, 11:31 AM
That dog won't hunt????? Really. What makes you think your so much smarter than the people who spent the big bucks to get this offf the ground.
It's like an amatuer sitting on the sidelines telling the pros what they are doing wrong.
Pathetic

dorabelle
11-26-2012, 11:35 AM
That dog won't hunt????? Really. What makes you think your so much smarter than the people who spent the big bucks to get this offf the ground.
It's like an amatuer sitting on the sidelines telling the pros what they are doing wrong.
Pathetic
Where is the money going to come from to pay for expenses?

Celtic
11-26-2012, 11:51 AM
Deep pockets are not bottomless and even the richest of people can go broke with a poor business model. Search Curt Schilling and 38 Studios to see how hard the mighty can fall.

Jaden
11-26-2012, 11:52 AM
IMO, BB is DOA.

They are throwing cash at the project, true, but from what I've read here, they are doing so without a true understanding of the game and its players. (Other than: if you pay them, they will come.). I think one of the prime mistakes they are making is trying to force feed the game (BB) from the top down,when they should have spent some of their dough building interest and support for the game at the grass roots. A secondary issue is having all the teams and matches play in Las Vegas and not generating support in the cities these guys are supposed to be representing.

Also, presenting their case here amongst the hardcore, with substantial chip on shoulder, is doing their organization and product incalculable harm in terms of lost goodwill in the industry.

Some key BB representatives don't seem to understand any of that.

Lou Figueroa

They kind of negate the advantage they create by having city based named teams by NOT having the matches in the cities they are from.

I had actually considered something similar only using familiar games. I had discussed it briefly with Mark Griffin a couple of years ago and was considering doing a pilot program in San Diego and LA.

Tv is only necessary to become as large as some other professional sports, but like those sports, tv is impossible without being able to get butts in seats first.

Football and Baseball were huge butts in seats sports long before they were tv sports.

To get mainstream interest, having team based city based groupings is necessary. It gives you a marketing base of "oh that's my team, I gotta route for them".

I can't imagine BB having the means to build arenas in every city they are doing this though. I personally would've considered booking a venue in each city and doing it that way with traditional local radio and print advertising to get butts in seats, once that is done and interest can be shown, the tv side will come banging on your door, not the other way around.

I can see, or at least I could've seen a reason for doing it in Vegas as opposed to other places, since people from all over go to Vegas. With advertising marketed to vacationers from the various cities where the teams are based, it could very well end up being possible to generate interest in vacationers to come to the show and could eventually be built up with arenas in each of the cities and even more cities if it gets as big as I'm sure the founders are hoping.

The game CAN be played without their ballset using solids for purple and stripes for orange so the ball set thing isn't necessary for the game to catch on.

In fact, I don't own a ball set and played some teaching the rules to another player on Friday night.

It's a great game in my opinion and a game to separate the pros from the amatuers may be a great method of generating interest in pool.

We don't know the marketing plan, or the business plan of BB founders, but it's hard to believe that they would've been able to get the investment capital that they appear to have without a half way decent foundation.

I have to kind of laugh at the people "in the know" of the billiard's industry saying that it isn't viable because if they knew what was viable, pool wouldn't be in the state that it's in today...

It may have been necessary for pool to degenerate to the state that it's in for something like this to be able to take hold.

I'll tell you another thing about bonus ball that other games do not have from what I've seen from the pros that I've watched play it.

The illusion of amatuers holding their own against pros (One of the reasons that high school ballers and golf players enjoy watching the sport) is more available in this game than other games.

Especially considering that most sports have highlighted mistakes (think golf) while pool has historically edited them out (think WPBA on ESPN).

Some things to chew on when considering the viability of the success of BB.

Jaden

JAM
11-26-2012, 11:53 AM
IMO, BB is DOA.

They are throwing cash at the project, true, but from what I've read here, they are doing so without a true understanding of the game and its players. (Other than: if you pay them, they will come.). I think one of the prime mistakes they are making is trying to force feed the game (BB) from the top down,when they should have spent some of their dough building interest and support for the game at the grass roots. A secondary issue is having all the teams and matches play in Las Vegas and not generating support in the cities these guys are supposed to be representing.

Also, presenting their case here amongst the hardcore, with substantial chip on shoulder, is doing their organization and product incalculable harm in terms of lost goodwill in the industry.

Some key BB representatives don't seem to understand any of that.

Lou Figueroa

I was on the fence about Bonus Ball. I had kind of a wait-and-see attitude, even though I heard rumors from various sources about Bonus Ball going back more than a year ago. I usually give people the benefit of the doubt, but after reading some of the posts today, I just jumped off the fence. :frown:

Like the ABP, Bonus Ball could use a professional Public Affairs or PR person/entity to handle their public discourse -- not only here on this forum but elsewhere -- with press releases to various pool media sources.

I would respectfully submit that they should stay off the forums. Some folks believe that AzBilliards is the only avenue to reach pool enthusiasts, but there's better, more constructive ways to deal with advertising and promotion than this forum.

The whole thing is starting to rub me the wrong way, and I am a member of the pool public; thus, Bonus Ball's target audience.

Good luck Bonus Ball. They're really, really going to need it.

JCIN
11-26-2012, 12:03 PM
I have to kind of laugh at the people "in the know" of the billiard's industry saying that it isn't viable because if they knew what was viable, pool wouldn't be in the state that it's in today...


Jaden

Ever consider its in the state its in now because watching ranks up there with going to sweat the big horseshoe throwing match ?

You dont have to be "in the know" to figure out you have to bring in more than you spend.

I have to kind of laugh at people who have never done anything in the industry who laugh at people who have.

jimmyg
11-26-2012, 12:26 PM
IMO, BB is DOA.

They are throwing cash at the project, true, but from what I've read here, they are doing so without a true understanding of the game and its players. (Other than: if you pay them, they will come.). I think one of the prime mistakes they are making is trying to force feed the game (BB) from the top down,when they should have spent some of their dough building interest and support for the game at the grass roots. A secondary issue is having all the teams and matches play in Las Vegas and not generating support in the cities these guys are supposed to be representing.

Also, presenting their case here amongst the hardcore, with substantial chip on shoulder, is doing their organization and product incalculable harm in terms of lost goodwill in the industry.

Some key BB representatives don't seem to understand any of that.

Lou Figueroa

All very valid points, although the one that had not registered with me before is the one above highlighted in red. That is a huge negative factor, the city teams do not even compete in the cities that they supposedly represent.

Why? Who? How? can these "teams" be expected to garner any local support without being the least bit local?

WOW! Huge mistake, IMO.

J

Snapshot9
11-26-2012, 12:32 PM
someone would explain clearly how the game is played. Right offhand, it seems too complicated to draw the general public's interest. It may interest the hardcore good player's interest, but not the casual league players, and certainly not someone not familiar with Pool.

Jaden
11-26-2012, 12:42 PM
Ever consider its in the state its in now because watching ranks up there with going to sweat the big horseshoe throwing match ?

You dont have to be "in the know" to figure out you have to bring in more than you spend.

I have to kind of laugh at people who have never done anything in the industry who laugh at people who have.

People could have said the same thing about hitting a ball with a stick, or running with a ball and trying to knock the guy with the ball down.

The truth of that could be said about anything that has been successfully marketed in the past.

How do you then explain the success of televised snooker???

Cause everyone KNOWS that snooker is SO much more exciting than pool. lol.

I was trying to be considerate but your personally insulting posts are getting old.

Jaden

iusedtoberich
11-26-2012, 12:45 PM
Exactly right, John, and I agree. Enjoy the ride while it's moving forward.

I'm still wondering, though, why they haven't paid Canadian Jim Wych for services rendered if they've got such deep pockets. To me, that stinks to high heaven.

No one is twisting your words here. The way you wrote this, does indeed sound as fact. I also read what you wrote in the other thread about this being "rumored". Then, I read it here on this thread, and my first thought was, "wow, I guess that its fact now, since she didn't say rumored". This was before I even read Roger's response to you.

JAM
11-26-2012, 12:47 PM
No one is twisting your words here. The way you wrote this, does indeed sound as fact. I also read what you wrote in the other thread about this being "rumored". Then, I read it here on this thread, and my first thought was, "wow, I guess that its fact now, since she didn't say rumored". This was before I even read Roger's response to you.

You need to read faster then.

Jaden
11-26-2012, 12:49 PM
Ever consider its in the state its in now because watching ranks up there with going to sweat the big horseshoe throwing match ?

You dont have to be "in the know" to figure out you have to bring in more than you spend.

I have to kind of laugh at people who have never done anything in the industry who laugh at people who have.

People could have said the same thing about hitting a ball with a stick, or running with a ball and trying to knock the guy with the ball down.

The truth of that could be said about anything that has been successfully marketed in the past.

How do you then explain the success of televised snooker???

Cause everyone KNOWS that snooker is SO much more exciting than pool. lol.

I was trying to be considerate but your personally insulting posts are getting old.

Jaden

p.s. I've streamed tournaments including an international 3 cushion tourney for free because I love the game and want to see it succeed....

JAM
11-26-2012, 12:50 PM
No one is twisting your words here. The way you wrote this, does indeed sound as fact. I also read what you wrote in the other thread about this being "rumored". Then, I read it here on this thread, and my first thought was, "wow, I guess that its fact now, since she didn't say rumored". This was before I even read Roger's response to you.

Why not contact Jim Wych and ask him, if you're really so very concerned about the truth: http://www.jimwych.com/contact.html :smile:

peteypooldude
11-26-2012, 12:53 PM
Where is the money going to come from to pay for expenses?

I wouldn't know the answer to that question. I am also pretty sure they have a plan and investors that are sure not to be that near sighted. It just strikes me as rude to say the least for people to say sh1t like "that dog won't hunt" . People have a habit of putting garbage like that on the forums just because they don't know the answer, it's not for them to know. All people like that have invested are their 02 cents and it's not even worth 02 cent. The world is full of knockers.

Jaden
11-26-2012, 12:56 PM
These threads are starting to feel like IPT threads...


Bashers claiming they are hopeful all the time bashing the hell out of it, and proponents first trying to say let's wait and see and getting ever more defensive as the bashers bash harder and harder...

It's kinda funny to me.

and yes I can laugh at an industry with such a huge base that is so miserably unsuccessful, even as it makes me incredibly sad to do so.

Jaden

iusedtoberich
11-26-2012, 12:56 PM
Why not contact Jim Wych and ask him, if you're really so very concerned about the truth: http://www.jimwych.com/contact.html :smile:

Sorry, you are not getting it. Before you lynch me, know I'm not one of the people who you claim constantly attack you, and I have no vested interest in the success or failure of BB.

Its simply the way you wrote the first message reads like its fact. When challenged by Roger (whom I also have no affiliation with), you take offense to his challenge, and question his reading comprehension. Now, you do the same to me.

That's all, hope you have a nice day.

dorabelle
11-26-2012, 01:01 PM
I wouldn't know the answer to that question. I am also pretty sure they have a plan and investors that are sure not to be that near sighted. It just strikes me as rude to say the least for people to say sh1t like "that dog won't hunt" . People have a habit of putting garbage like that on the forums just because they don't know the answer, it's not for them to know. All people like that have invested are their 02 cents and it's not even worth 02 cent. The world is full of knockers.

I don't think pool is a hard to pitch to investors. There are millions that play, pool tables in every bar, untapped market.......Etc etc. Still doesn't make it exciting to watch.
Most people on this thread arent knocking anything. People are just curious how this is gonna work and who will be affected by it.

JAM
11-26-2012, 01:01 PM
Sorry, you are not getting it. Before you lynch me, know I'm not one of the people who you claim constantly attack you, and I have no vested interest in the success or failure of BB.

Its simply the way you wrote the first message reads like its fact. When challenged by Roger (whom I also have no affiliation with), you take offense to his challenge, and question his reading comprehension. Now, you do the same to me.

That's all, hope you have a nice day.

Why do you say I think people constantly attack me and that I take offense at Roger's words? This sounds more like my posts in your opinion have projected this. I never challenged anyone's reading comprehension, and now I am interpreting your post to be confrontational, though I'm not sure why.

I have no vested interest in the success or failure of BB, either.

I wish Bonus Ball to be the Cadillac Deville of pool. Did you know, iusedtoberich, that the Cadillac Deville is spelled several different ways, depending on what year the Cadillac was?

The de Ville was originally a trim level and later a model of General Motors' Cadillac marque. The first car to bear the name was the 1949 Coupe de Ville, a prestige trim level of the Series 62 luxury coupe.

The last model to be formally known as a De Ville was the 2005 Cadillac DeVille, a full-size sedan, the largest car in the Cadillac model range at the time.

The next year, the DeVille was officially renamed DTS (an abbreviation standing for DeVille Touring Sedan, itself a trim level on earlier models).

I always liked the way a Cadillac drove. :cool:

Hawk
11-26-2012, 01:04 PM
You can bet that whoever has the means to invest several million in pool knows that they are not getting it back from a $9.95 ppv stream. Why not wait until the league starts and the business model unfolds before criticizing it? The BB folks might actually have something in their back pocket that makes sense to them. Who knows it could be anything from a reality show, to league's to a relationship with one of the LV casino's.
I watched "American Hoggers" over the weekend, a show about hunting boars in Texas, half the show is subtitled. I thought it was kind of entertaining. Point being, don't be surprised what can be sold to the public.

cleary
11-26-2012, 01:06 PM
People could have said the same thing about hitting a ball with a stick, or running with a ball and trying to knock the guy with the ball down.

The truth of that could be said about anything that has been successfully marketed in the past.

How do you then explain the success of televised snooker???

Cause everyone KNOWS that snooker is SO much more exciting than pool. lol.

I was trying to be considerate but your personally insulting posts are getting old.

Jaden

p.s. I've streamed tournaments including an international 3 cushion tourney for free because I love the game and want to see it succeed....

How does snooker do in the US? Not much success here. What about Cricket or even Soccer??? How does Budweiser sell in the UK? Just because something does well in certain parts of the world, doesn't mean it will do well in others.

And to be honest, I don't think snooker really does that well. Top snooker players make very good money and it does much better than pool in the US, but not exactly Tiger Woods money.

Jaden
11-26-2012, 01:15 PM
How does snooker do in the US? Not much success here. What about Cricket or even Soccer??? How does Budweiser sell in the UK? Just because something does well in certain parts of the world, doesn't mean it will do well in others.

And to be honest, I don't think snooker really does that well. Top snooker players make very good money and it does much better than pool in the US, but not exactly Tiger Woods money.

No the truth of the matter is that with the right marketing ANYTHING can be made popular.

With that being said, I don't think that pool as an individual sport is marketable RIGHT NOW. Most individual sports are not marketable. That's why I laugh when people try to compare pool to golf. Golf is the exception, not the rule.

It is a different class of people any more that play golf versus playing pool. That didn't used to be the case, hence pool being more socially adherent in the past.

As I have stated, without the team aspect and several other things, like allowing for amatuers to have the illusion of competitiveness on a good day, I agree that pool is not marketable, but with those things, I think it becomes marketable.

Only time will tell, but the attitude that pool will never be successful and CAN'T be successful is not only detrimental to the future of the sport, but I think it is foolish as well.

Jaden

JCIN
11-26-2012, 01:18 PM
People could have said the same thing about hitting a ball with a stick, or running with a ball and trying to knock the guy with the ball down.

The truth of that could be said about anything that has been successfully marketed in the past.

How do you then explain the success of televised snooker???

Cause everyone KNOWS that snooker is SO much more exciting than pool. lol.

I was trying to be considerate but your personally insulting posts are getting old.

Jaden
Do you know the history of how snooker came to be on television and how it was grown?

Whats personally insulting is people with no idea at all about what they are prattling on about talking down to people who actually make a living at it however shitty it may be.

Roger Long
11-26-2012, 01:31 PM
You are interpreting it that I am stating it as a fact, which is a normal forum trait when people twist words around to mean different things. It happens all the time, especially here in AzBilliards Land. Everybody has their own agenda.

I do notice in reading this forum that the majority of pool peeps and AzBilliards members from the fine State of Arizona is very much pro Bonus Ball. :D

Of course, maybe I am twisting words around to mean different things by this statement. :p

If you read the other thread correctly, then maybe you would be able to ascertain that I learned of this news from three different sources that Jim Wych was owed money from the Bonus Ball entity. IOW, this is hearsay. I have not spoken to Jim Wych, nor have I spoken to Bonus Ball.

Does this help clarify?

Yes, it clarified everything: the money owed to Jim Wych is just a rumor; and you feel justified in spreading that rumor.

Roger

JAM
11-26-2012, 01:31 PM
You can bet that whoever has the means to invest several million in pool knows that they are not getting it back from a $9.95 ppv stream. Why not wait until the league starts and the business model unfolds before criticizing it? The BB folks might actually have something in their back pocket that makes sense to them. Who knows it could be anything from a reality show, to league's to a relationship with one of the LV casino's.
I watched "American Hoggers" over the weekend, a show about hunting boars in Texas, half the show is subtitled. I thought it was kind of entertaining. Point being, don't be surprised what can be sold to the public.

How many seasons do you think "American Hoggers" will be on cable TV?

Jaden
11-26-2012, 01:33 PM
Do you know the history of how snooker came to be on television and how it was grown?

Whats personally insulting is people with no idea at all about what they are prattling on about talking down to people who actually make a living at it however shitty it may be.

I don't know how or why you perceived that I was talking down to you.

I also don't know how or why you would think I don't know what I'm talking about.

With the format you are supporting I think you are doing the best job that can be done.

But you are working around and within the existing fan base.

For the marketing of pool to succeed we have to find a way to reach outside of the fanbase and I think that anyone on the inside right now to think that they should be the defacto standard for reaching outside of the fanbase IS laughable, because thus far nothing that has been done has managed to do so.

I think it is laughable that since what has been done hasn't been able to reach outside of the existing fan base that those working with the existing fanbase think it is impossible to get outside of the existing fanbase.

That's not meant to be an insult to you or anyone else working within the existing fanbase. That's just the truth. It's rather obvious that what HAS been tried and has had limited success with the existing fanbase is NOT going to be able to reach outside the existing fanbase, but to say that nothing will is laughable.

I don't mean that I'm laughing at you, if that is how you perceived it. I respect you greatly and I hope to be able to get on TAR one day, either in the booth or as a competitor.

I didn't mean to be insulting to you. Hell I consider Mark a friend and do believe that he has some good ideas to expand the sport too.

I know when I said insiders that you seem to have taken me to mean you personally, I didn't.

That's why I posted up to not take what I said personally, I was not referring to you or to Mark.

Hell, I don't know who I was referring to. I just meant that I don't believe for a second that pool needs a grave marker and I'll laugh at anyone who says that it does.

DO YOU believe that pool is dead and needs to be buried??? I don't believe that you do or you would close up shop.

I'm just getting tired of people jumping up and bashing any new idea that comes along...

Doesn't it get old??? not giving anything new a chance when the old has proven itself inadequate, at least inadequate to the level that we would all like to see????

Jaden

JAM
11-26-2012, 01:34 PM
Yes, it clarified everything: the money owed to Jim Wych is just a rumor; and you feel justified in spreading that rumor.

Roger

I'm Justified (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqa8l9ZYKTA).

Truth always sounds like lies to a sinner. ~ Boyd Crowder

justadub
11-26-2012, 01:44 PM
No the truth of the matter is that with the right marketing ANYTHING can be made popular.

Jaden

Really?

New Coke. Windows Vista. Sony Betamax.

You think those companies might know something about marketing, and have a few dollars to spend on it. "Anything can be marketed", really?

Let's stay sport related then. USFL Football League, with Donald Trump and all his money. XFL, with Vince McMahon and his marketing machine, at the height of WWE success, and a network TV deal.

Or how much time, effort and money that has been put into making soccer successful in the US over the last 20 years.

So the answer is "no, not necessarily anything can be marketed as a success".

I hope Bonus Ball does well. But to blindly assume that they know something that others don't is perhaps a little naive.

Ghosst
11-26-2012, 01:47 PM
I hope Bonus Ball does well. But to blindly assume that they know something that others don't is perhaps a little naive.

Hater... :rolleyes:

Jaden
11-26-2012, 01:54 PM
Really?

New Coke. Windows Vista. Sony Betamax.

You think those companies might know something about marketing, and have a few dollars to spend on it. "Anything can be marketed", really?

Let's stay sport related then. USFL Football League, with Donald Trump and all his money. XFL, with Vince McMahon and his marketing machine, at the height of WWE success, and a network TV deal.

Or how much time, effort and money that has been put into making soccer successful in the US over the last 20 years.

So the answer is "no, not necessarily anything can be marketed as a success".

I hope Bonus Ball does well. But to blindly assume that they know something that others don't is perhaps a little naive.

See, insiders don't always know what the right marketing is.

What about things that should never have been successful but were, the right marketing will win out every time. The question is knowing what the right marketing is....

Soccer is and will be successful, on telemundo...lol

Jaden

dorabelle
11-26-2012, 01:56 PM
Jaden how about chess? Could you market it enough to get the masses to want to watch it? You'd get the die hard chess fans I'm sure. Pool is more like chess to me than football or baseball.

Jaden
11-26-2012, 01:59 PM
Jaden how about chess? Could you market it enough to get the masses to want to watch it? You'd get the die hard chess fans I'm sure. Pool is more like chess to me than football or baseball.

Sure you could, it would require changes though, maybe enough changes that chess would no longer be able to be considered chess.

Sometimes it's a grass roots level change in perception, sometimes it's a restructuring.

What will actually work, who knows, what we do know is that what hs been being done is NOT working.

Jaden

krupa
11-26-2012, 02:02 PM
Really?

New Coke. Windows Vista. Sony Betamax.

You think those companies might know something about marketing, and have a few dollars to spend on it. "Anything can be marketed", really?

Let's stay sport related then. USFL Football League, with Donald Trump and all his money. XFL, with Vince McMahon and his marketing machine, at the height of WWE success, and a network TV deal.

Or how much time, effort and money that has been put into making soccer successful in the US over the last 20 years.

So the answer is "no, not necessarily anything can be marketed as a success".

I hope Bonus Ball does well. But to blindly assume that they know something that others don't is perhaps a little naive.

Sega Master System versus Nintendo Entertainment System.

The former had better graphics, games, and an 8-directional gamepad.

The latter had Mario Bros.

elvicash
11-26-2012, 02:09 PM
How many seasons do you think "American Hoggers" will be on cable TV?

2 so far I expect it will got at least one more for three I think 5 is a stretch so I would bet on 3 seasons at even money.

JAM
11-26-2012, 02:12 PM
2 so far I expect it will got at least one more for three I think 5 is a stretch so I would bet on 3 seasons at even money.

What's going on with "Lizard Lick Towing"? I love the RONisms (http://www.trutv.com/video/lizard-lick-towing/ronisms.html). :D

Celtic
11-26-2012, 04:52 PM
Sure you could, it would require changes though, maybe enough changes that chess would no longer be able to be considered chess.

Then the correct answer was "no".

ChrisBanks
11-26-2012, 04:56 PM
Then the correct answer was "no".

Here we may need to study the following: For what reasons are we seeking the confirmation of the "masses?" And as follows; Should we seek the confirmation of the masses?

peteypooldude
11-26-2012, 05:02 PM
IMO, BB is DOA.

They are throwing cash at the project, true, but from what I've read here, they are doing so without a true understanding of the game and its players. (Other than: if you pay them, they will come.). I think one of the prime mistakes they are making is trying to force feed the game (BB) from the top down,when they should have spent some of their dough building interest and support for the game at the grass roots. A secondary issue is having all the teams and matches play in Las Vegas and not generating support in the cities these guys are supposed to be representing.

Also, presenting their case here amongst the hardcore, with substantial chip on shoulder, is doing their organization and product incalculable harm in terms of lost goodwill in the industry.

Some key BB representatives don't seem to understand any of that.

Lou Figueroa

That's about all anyone would expect from you?
Predictable to say the least.

peteypooldude
11-26-2012, 05:04 PM
Another hit and run thread by Pangit
How nice

JB Cases
11-26-2012, 05:20 PM
Where is the money going to come from to pay for expenses?

Obama silly, everyone knows that :-)

NickV
11-26-2012, 05:23 PM
Jaden how about chess? Could you market it enough to get the masses to want to watch it? You'd get the die hard chess fans I'm sure. Pool is more like chess to me than football or baseball.

Professional chess players make quite a bit more than pool players. Magnus Carlsen has been making over 600,000 a year for the last couple of years since he became the number one player and up to 1.3million USD.

The top 50 players of the world make over 100k USD. Top players supplement their income through many revenue streams.

Here's a link:
http://www.chess.com/article/view/making-money-in-chess

Pool players wish they had the same environment chess does globally.

JB Cases
11-26-2012, 05:32 PM
How does snooker do in the US? Not much success here. What about Cricket or even Soccer??? How does Budweiser sell in the UK? Just because something does well in certain parts of the world, doesn't mean it will do well in others.

And to be honest, I don't think snooker really does that well. Top snooker players make very good money and it does much better than pool in the US, but not exactly Tiger Woods money.

Well, they do well enough. Ronnie drives a Ferrari and has won a Bentley or two I think.

It wouldn't take much of an improvement in popularity for pool players to make enough money to be at least fairly financially secure. I am sure that the lower ranked snooker players still struggle but then again so do the lower ranked golfers and tennis players and nascar teams and so on, in all walks of life the lower ranks make far less than the top.

My take on all this is why not? Why should we really care whether someone wants to put millions into this, let him try, let it ride and see what happens. The players who are playing are all fully capable of making up their minds as to where they want to spend their time.

Larry the Money Guy has probably seen it all, he has seen the stream numbers, he knows full well that PPV from "diehard" fans won't cover the nut. So either he has an ace up his sleeve or he has a very expensive hobby. Either way it's going forward and none of us has any skin in the game. We weren't asked to invest, we haven't been sold a pie-in-the-sky dream, we haven't been asked to play in $2000 qualifier events for a shot at the "big" money.

So why not simply give them a fair shot and let it start without the withering criticism? For all we know Larry is sipping champagne in the Diamond Room with the head of ESPN right now toasting the agreement for a full season of BB uncut. Or not, but still let it roll and see where it goes is my take on it.

SpiderWebComm
11-26-2012, 06:36 PM
I was on the fence about Bonus Ball. I had kind of a wait-and-see attitude, even though I heard rumors from various sources about Bonus Ball going back more than a year ago. I usually give people the benefit of the doubt, but after reading some of the posts today, I just jumped off the fence. :frown:

Like the ABP, Bonus Ball could use a professional Public Affairs or PR person/entity to handle their public discourse -- not only here on this forum but elsewhere -- with press releases to various pool media sources.

I would respectfully submit that they should stay off the forums. Some folks believe that AzBilliards is the only avenue to reach pool enthusiasts, but there's better, more constructive ways to deal with advertising and promotion than this forum.

The whole thing is starting to rub me the wrong way, and I am a member of the pool public; thus, Bonus Ball's target audience.

Good luck Bonus Ball. They're really, really going to need it.

Jennie --

Over the years I've noticed you've always stood-up for KT and the IPT for putting money in the pockets of players (like Keith, as an example) even though the IPT stiffed all of the players who entered qualifiers, slow-paid the Reno event over a year or two and left many of the vendors high-and-dry.

I was curious why you've always continued to stick-up for the IPT (who were blatant thieves w/ qualifier entry fees) but don't stick up for Bonus Ball when they are also putting money into players' pockets. You've mentioned Jimmy Wych a few times and how Bonus Ball owes him money, clearly trying to add a hair of pressure to get him paid. If true, you're right in sticking up for him - I totally agree.

Why didn't you have that same passion for the players, vendors and backers who got flat-out robbed with the IPT and why do you always defend the IPT every chance you've had in threads that discussed the topic; yet, Bonus Ball rubs you the wrong way and you publicly disapprove of Jimmy's outstanding fee?

I'm NOT saying that BB "is like" the IPT in any way. Clearly the IPT was a slime ball of an organization and BB hasn't done anything bad outside of maybe missing some dates and good communication with other promoters.

I hope my question isn't taken the wrong way and you don't think I'm a troll or anything. I always felt you were on the wrong side of the IPT issue because Keith actually got paid --- many, many did not and were flat-out ripped-off to the tune of $2k / person. Nobody knows the story with Jimmy other than Jimmy and BB -- I just wish your passion to get Jimmy paid was around when scores of people didn't get paid with the IPT.

Anyways, please don't take my post as a knock or trolling or anything. I value your thoughts and feedback since your position on BB was contradictory to your position on the IPT, when the IPT was way, way worse.

Regards,
Dave

vagabond
11-26-2012, 09:37 PM
$800K on cameras?

The man has something all right.


JCIN, That is what he said. I am clueless about the technology and for that matter on most issues in life. He was saying that it will be shot with four cameras and the TV viewers will be able to see the players,tables in different angles. He also said that there will be several screens in the room and after each shot by the player,the player`s computerized stats will immediately appear on the screen. Larry appeared to be very details oriented person. He has passion. I wish him all the best.

vagabond
11-26-2012, 09:47 PM
How are they going to generate revenue in the begining? PPV streams? I'm sorry I just can't see it.

He spent 3-3.5 million $. He has lot of ideas. The man has passion.

Jeff M
11-26-2012, 11:44 PM
I hope it works out because it would be good for pool. I still feel in my heart 8-ball is the game to present on T.V. The everyday player can relate to it the most. How exactly that could be done successfully, I do not know. I need to watch more bonus ball before I can really decide how I feel about it. Not certain it is the game to present to the masses.

JAM
11-27-2012, 03:01 AM
Jennie --

Over the years I've noticed you've always stood-up for KT and the IPT for putting money in the pockets of players (like Keith, as an example) even though the IPT stiffed all of the players who entered qualifiers, slow-paid the Reno event over a year or two and left many of the vendors high-and-dry.

I was curious why you've always continued to stick-up for the IPT (who were blatant thieves w/ qualifier entry fees) but don't stick up for Bonus Ball when they are also putting money into players' pockets. You've mentioned Jimmy Wych a few times and how Bonus Ball owes him money, clearly trying to add a hair of pressure to get him paid. If true, you're right in sticking up for him - I totally agree.

Why didn't you have that same passion for the players, vendors and backers who got flat-out robbed with the IPT and why do you always defend the IPT every chance you've had in threads that discussed the topic; yet, Bonus Ball rubs you the wrong way and you publicly disapprove of Jimmy's outstanding fee?

I'm NOT saying that BB "is like" the IPT in any way. Clearly the IPT was a slime ball of an organization and BB hasn't done anything bad outside of maybe missing some dates and good communication with other promoters.

I hope my question isn't taken the wrong way and you don't think I'm a troll or anything. I always felt you were on the wrong side of the IPT issue because Keith actually got paid --- many, many did not and were flat-out ripped-off to the tune of $2k / person. Nobody knows the story with Jimmy other than Jimmy and BB -- I just wish your passion to get Jimmy paid was around when scores of people didn't get paid with the IPT.

Anyways, please don't take my post as a knock or trolling or anything. I value your thoughts and feedback since your position on BB was contradictory to your position on the IPT, when the IPT was way, way worse.

Regards,
Dave

Look, Dave, my disdain for Bonus Ball began yesterday when I was contacted by one of its so-called "representatives" via PM on this forum. The words written via PM infuriated me, so much so that I have lost any good thoughts I had for Bonus Ball. Originally, I was a Bonus Ball supporter, even blindly before it began. I was giving it the benefit of the doubt.

Anybody who knows me on this forum, sometimes to my own detriment, realizes that I am the biggest proponent of pro players on this forum, maybe on the Internet. You have no idea what I do to promote American pool, as an example, silently in the background when time allows. I have spent literally hundreds of hours of my time and effort to promote pro players from around the world, not just Americans, but it is the American pro players that I have spent the bulk of my time on.

If anything, it is me and people just like me, who are very much supporters of professional pool, that Bonus Ball should be attracting. Instead, I get some imp with multiple metal screws coming out of every orifice stating to me that I am the cause of pro players not getting their million-dollar payday.

Well, you know what, Dave, if this is the person representing Bonus Ball, I won't support them one iota.

As far as Kevin Trudeau and the IPT, they treated me and mine just fine. In fact, if you were to talk to some of the pro players who were "regular" IPT members, most feel the same way as we do. I'm sorry that you got ripped off by KT and/or the IPT, Dave. If I got ripped off, I would not think too highly of an organization, either, but I didn't get ripped off. Instead, as Keith puts it, it was one of the best experiences in the pool world to ever come to the fore, bar none. It even triumphed Tahoe, according to Keith, whatever that was.

Pertaining to Jim Wych, what happened to him has been relayed to me by three different people who know Jim. I had heard about it months ago. I decided to ask Barry of Bonus Ball, who seems to be able to communicate well on this forum, about it. His reply to me via an open public thread on this forum, FWIW, was a good one. He's got good business integrity, and I admired how he handled my inquiry.

But then I get contacted by a "new kid on the block," who's younger than my daughter and hasn't been in this pool world for even a decade. He has no idea what I have tried to do for professional pool -- me, again, the biggest proponent of professional players on this forum. And to read his words directed at me -- "we won't get our million-dollar payday because of you" -- stuck in my craw not once, not twice, not thrice, not four times, but now five times via PM.

Well, you know what, Dave, I posted Jim Wych's e-mail address. Instead of innuendos, rumors and/or hearsay, anybody who's curious or believes it is my fault the pro players who I have been dedicated to on this forum and on the Internet as a whole for years, sometimes getting attacked along the way for my pro-American player stance, they can contact Jim and find out for themselves. I'm not a liar, and I stated from the onset that it was rumor. When confronted by the Arizona Bonus Ball mafia, et al., I again confirmed that it was hearsay on my end. I have not spoken or communicated with Jim Wych, me personally.

Again, I was quite happy with Barry of Bonus Ball's reply to me, and I had dropped the entire topic. Things in business happen. I get that. Heck, anybody who is in the business world understands that sometimes business relationships can go sour. But the back-and-forth by the so-called Bonus Ball representative began and ensued well after Barry of Bonus Ball's reply post to me. In fact, the insulting PMs laced with untruths towards me are still happening this morning by this so-called "representative" of the 40 Bonus Ball players.

Because of this and this alone, Bonus Ball is dead as far as I'm concerned. I won't provide one bit of excitement, enthusiasm, or support. The Arizona and Canadian members of this forum can continue to be the Bonus Ball cheerleaders and mafia, attacking those who write anything untoward about Bonus Ball, but I ain't going to sweep their untruths and lies under the rug. When the Bonus Ball balloon pops, suddenly dropping at warp speed, you can bet your bottom dollar, all these cheerleaders will be chanting a different tune.

So, Dave, if you want to support Bonus Ball and its mafia gang from Canada and Arizona, be my guest. That is certainly your prerogative, but please allow me to have my opinions about them as well as the IPT.

The IPT was a great ride while it lasted, and those who are affiliated with Bonus Ball today may rise to heights beyond our gaze. I will let you in on a little secret, Dave. The higher they rise, the harder that fall will be. Boom! And it will sting and hurt, leaving some with broken souls, having the same effect as the IPT's withdrawal from the pool scene. Fortunately for me, my IPT experience was a good one.

SakuJack
11-27-2012, 03:43 AM
As far as Kevin Trudeau and the IPT, they treated me and mine just fine. In fact, if you were to talk to some of the pro players who were "regular" IPT members, most feel the same way as we do. I'm sorry that you got ripped off by KT and/or the IPT, Dave. If I got ripped off, I would not think too highly of an organization, either, but I didn't get ripped off.

So, if you (or Keith) were making money from Bonus Ball, would you still care about Jim Wych supposedly being owed money by them? Because based on this response, I'm leaning towards no.

JCIN
11-27-2012, 03:43 AM
Look, Dave, my disdain for Bonus Ball began yesterday when I was contacted by one of its so-called "representatives" via PM on this forum. The words written via PM infuriated me, so much so that I have lost any good thoughts I had for Bonus Ball. Originally, I was a Bonus Ball supporter, even blindly before it began. I was giving it the benefit of the doubt.

Anybody who knows me on this forum, sometimes to my own detriment, realizes that I am the biggest proponent of pro players on this forum, maybe on the Internet. You have no idea what I do to promote American pool, as an example, silently in the background when time allows. I have spent literally hundreds of hours of my time and effort to promote pro players from around the world, not just Americans, but it is the American pro players that I have spent the bulk of my time on.

If anything, it is me and people just like me, who are very much supporters of professional pool, that Bonus Ball should be attracting. Instead, I get some imp with multiple hideous metal screws coming out of every orifice of his face stating to me that I am the cause of pro players not getting their million-dollar payday.

Well, you know what, Dave, if this is the person representing Bonus Ball, I won't support them one iota.

As far as Kevin Trudeau and the IPT, they treated me and mine just fine. In fact, if you were to talk to some of the pro players who were "regular" IPT members, most feel the same way as we do. I'm sorry that you got ripped off by KT and/or the IPT, Dave. If I got ripped off, I would not think too highly of an organization, either, but I didn't get ripped off. Instead, as Keith puts it, it was one of the best experiences in the pool world to ever come to the fore, bar none. It even triumphed Tahoe, according to Keith, whatever that was.

Pertaining to Jim Wych, what happened to him has been relayed to me by three different people who know Jim. I had heard about it months ago. I decided to ask Barry of Bonus Ball, who seems to be able to communicate well on this forum, about it. His reply to me via an open public thread on this forum, FWIW, was a good one. He's got good business integrity, and I admired how he handled my inquiry.

But then I get contacted by a "new kid on the block," who has no idea who I am, what I represent, or what I have tried to do for professional pool, stating "we" won't get our million-dollar payday because of what I wrote on this forum about Jim Wych.

Well, you know what, I posted Jim Wych's e-mail address. Instead of innuendos, rumors and/or hearsay, anybody who's curious or believes it is my fault the pro players who I have so vehemently supported on this forum and on the Internet as a whole for years, sometimes getting attacked along the way for my pro-American player stance, they can contact Jim and find out for themselves. I'm not a liar, and I stated from the onset that it was rumor. When confronted by the Arizona Bonus Ball mafia, et al., I again confirmed that it was hearsay on my end. I have not spoken to Jim Wych, me personally.

Again, I was quite happy with Barry of Bonus Ball's reply to me, and I had dropped it, but the back-and-forth began and ensued. In fact, it's still happening this morning.

Because of this and this alone, Bonus Ball is dead as far as I'm concerned. I won't provide one bit of excitement, enthusiasm, or support. The Arizona and Canadian members of this forum can continue to be the Bonus Ball cheerleaders and mafia on this forum. I'm not going to sweep their untruths and lies under the rug.

So, Dave, if you want to support Bonus Ball and its mafia gang from Canada and Arizona, be my guest. That is certainly your prerogative, but please allow me to have my opinions about them as well as the IPT.

The IPT was a great ride while it lasted, and those who are affiliated with Bonus Ball today may rise to heights beyond our gaze. I will let you in on a little secret, Dave. The higher they rise, the harder that fall will be. Boom! And it will sting and hurt, just like the IPT's withdrawal from the pool scene did to some folks. Fortunately for me, I wasn't one of them.
So a multi-million dollar project can be put in jeopardy by a couple posts on an internet message board that is seen by a few hundred people at most?

Weird.

Regarding the IPT...we will never agree on that one but such is life.

nathandumoulin
11-27-2012, 03:43 AM
5 PMs?

40 players?

"multiple hideous metal screws coming out of every orifice of his head"?

Jam, there aren't even 40 players in Bonus Ball. I think you're getting a little carried away here by inflating all these numbers. I asked you to check both sides of the story before gossiping about potentially damaging issues. That's hardly an unreasonable request.

This isn't a pub fight, and there is no need to slander or be hateful. If you have a problem, then fine. Accept it, just as I will. Taking things personally and being irrational isn't helping anyone.

TheThaiger
11-27-2012, 03:50 AM
"multiple hideous metal screws coming out of every orifice of his head"?


Is it you she's talking about?

Pangit
11-27-2012, 07:07 AM
Look, Dave, my disdain for Bonus Ball began yesterday when I was contacted by one of its so-called "representatives" via PM on this forum. The words written via PM infuriated me, so much so that I have lost any good thoughts I had for Bonus Ball. Originally, I was a Bonus Ball supporter, even blindly before it began. I was giving it the benefit of the doubt.

Anybody who knows me on this forum, sometimes to my own detriment, realizes that I am the biggest proponent of pro players on this forum, maybe on the Internet. You have no idea what I do to promote American pool, as an example, silently in the background when time allows. I have spent literally hundreds of hours of my time and effort to promote pro players from around the world, not just Americans, but it is the American pro players that I have spent the bulk of my time on.

If anything, it is me and people just like me, who are very much supporters of professional pool, that Bonus Ball should be attracting. Instead, I get some imp with multiple metal screws coming out of every orifice stating to me that I am the cause of pro players not getting their million-dollar payday.

Well, you know what, Dave, if this is the person representing Bonus Ball, I won't support them one iota.

As far as Kevin Trudeau and the IPT, they treated me and mine just fine. In fact, if you were to talk to some of the pro players who were "regular" IPT members, most feel the same way as we do. I'm sorry that you got ripped off by KT and/or the IPT, Dave. If I got ripped off, I would not think too highly of an organization, either, but I didn't get ripped off. Instead, as Keith puts it, it was one of the best experiences in the pool world to ever come to the fore, bar none. It even triumphed Tahoe, according to Keith, whatever that was.

Pertaining to Jim Wych, what happened to him has been relayed to me by three different people who know Jim. I had heard about it months ago. I decided to ask Barry of Bonus Ball, who seems to be able to communicate well on this forum, about it. His reply to me via an open public thread on this forum, FWIW, was a good one. He's got good business integrity, and I admired how he handled my inquiry.

But then I get contacted by a "new kid on the block," who's younger than my daughter and hasn't been in this pool world for even a decade. He has no idea what I have tried to do for professional pool -- me, again, the biggest proponent of professional players on this forum. And to read his words directed at me -- "we won't get our million-dollar payday because of you" -- stuck in my craw not once, not twice, not thrice, not four times, but now five times via PM.

Well, you know what, Dave, I posted Jim Wych's e-mail address. Instead of innuendos, rumors and/or hearsay, anybody who's curious or believes it is my fault the pro players who I have been dedicated to on this forum and on the Internet as a whole for years, sometimes getting attacked along the way for my pro-American player stance, they can contact Jim and find out for themselves. I'm not a liar, and I stated from the onset that it was rumor. When confronted by the Arizona Bonus Ball mafia, et al., I again confirmed that it was hearsay on my end. I have not spoken or communicated with Jim Wych, me personally.

Again, I was quite happy with Barry of Bonus Ball's reply to me, and I had dropped the entire topic. Things in business happen. I get that. Heck, anybody who is in the business world understands that sometimes business relationships can go sour. But the back-and-forth by the so-called Bonus Ball representative began and ensued well after Barry of Bonus Ball's reply post to me. In fact, the insulting PMs laced with untruths towards me are still happening this morning by this so-called "representative" of the 40 Bonus Ball players.

Because of this and this alone, Bonus Ball is dead as far as I'm concerned. I won't provide one bit of excitement, enthusiasm, or support. The Arizona and Canadian members of this forum can continue to be the Bonus Ball cheerleaders and mafia, attacking those who write anything untoward about Bonus Ball, but I ain't going to sweep their untruths and lies under the rug. When the Bonus Ball balloon pops, suddenly dropping at warp speed, you can bet your bottom dollar, all these cheerleaders will be chanting a different tune.

So, Dave, if you want to support Bonus Ball and its mafia gang from Canada and Arizona, be my guest. That is certainly your prerogative, but please allow me to have my opinions about them as well as the IPT.

The IPT was a great ride while it lasted, and those who are affiliated with Bonus Ball today may rise to heights beyond our gaze. I will let you in on a little secret, Dave. The higher they rise, the harder that fall will be. Boom! And it will sting and hurt, leaving some with broken souls, having the same effect as the IPT's withdrawal from the pool scene. Fortunately for me, my IPT experience was a good one.

I think you are spot on...two thumbs up...a perfect example of telling it like it is from your view of things??? I didn't know about all these sordid details, thanks for filling us in...

JAM
11-27-2012, 07:45 AM
I think you are spot on...two thumbs up...a perfect example of telling it like it is from your view of things??? I didn't know about all these sordid details, thanks for filling us in...

It's time to remember; it's time to move on. They've pushed it too far; they don't know what they've done. If it's a fight that they want, then it's a fight that they'll get.

Don't wake up a sleeping giant (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VKqscwG2-Q)!

whammo57
11-27-2012, 07:48 AM
$800k. oh boy...

http://popgoestheweek.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/titanic.jpg

At least they had a band..............

LOL

Lo,

dorabelle
11-27-2012, 07:56 AM
He spent 3-3.5 million $. He has lot of ideas. The man has passion.

Bleeding money

JAM
11-27-2012, 08:01 AM
Bleeding money

True story. My brother sent his rent check to his landlord, who lives in Vegas. The landlord called my brother up one day and said he left his check in his jeans and put them in the washing machine. He asked my brother if he could issue a new check. My brother's retort was, "Don't you know it's against the law to launder money?"

Oh, I wish I had expendable cash to launder into a venture of my choosing, but I'm a working stiff and have to earn each penny, one at a time.

whammo57
11-27-2012, 08:01 AM
Professional chess players make quite a bit more than pool players. Magnus Carlsen has been making over 600,000 a year for the last couple of years since he became the number one player and up to 1.3million USD.

The top 50 players of the world make over 100k USD. Top players supplement their income through many revenue streams.

Here's a link:
http://www.chess.com/article/view/making-money-in-chess

Pool players wish they had the same environment chess does globally.

Chess ... really??

Oh my what an exciting game to watch..... I would rather watch flies fucckkk.

BB is too complicated to catch on. I read all the rules and got bored half way through it......... yea yea ... I know, I have a short attention span but, so do a million other pool players.

$200 for a special set of balls........... yea right .... every home owner with a pool table will be flocking to stores to buy them. After 3 beers no one will remember which pocket they are shooting at and what ball is supposed to go there. Shittt, I forget which pocket I am shooting at in one pocket,

People won't pay to watch a game if they don't know exactly what it is that the players are trying to accomplish.

sorry... I won't be a follower.

I feel bad that the good pros are being duped again.

When this folds up, I hope it is not the death of professional pool.

Kim

JAM
11-27-2012, 08:03 AM
Chess ... really??

Oh my what an exciting game to watch..... I would rather watch flies fucckkk.

BB is too complicated to catch on. I read all the rules and got bored half way through it......... yea yea ... I know, I have a short attention span but, so do a million other pool players.

$200 for a special set of balls........... yea right .... every home owner with a pool table will be flocking to stores to buy them. After 3 beers no one will remember which pocket they are shooting at and what ball is supposed to go there. Shittt, I forget which pocket I am shooting at in one pocket,

People won't pay to watch a game if they don't know exactly what it is that the players are trying to accomplish.

sorry... I won't be a follower.

I feel bad that the good pros are being duped again.

When this folds up, I hope it is not the death of professional pool.

Kim

Very valid points, Kim, and I agree. Chess is boring.

What are your thoughts on Scrabble? :D

dorabelle
11-27-2012, 08:19 AM
Will this affect DCC? Won't most of the players be playin BB?

jimmyg
11-27-2012, 09:22 AM
So, if you (or Keith) were making money from Bonus Ball, would you still care about Jim Wych supposedly being owed money by them? Because based on this response, I'm leaning towards no.

Come on, think of it this way....many, if not most, of the first few Bernie Madoff Ponzi scheme "investors" who actually made a lot money while the scheme was up and operating were thoroughly content to continue to collect their payments and could care less that $billions were lost by others in order to pay them.

It's the new sociopathic Darwinism business model taught in all the top Ivy League schools, everything is fine as long as I make money. It sucks. IMO.

J

whammo57
11-27-2012, 12:00 PM
Very valid points, Kim, and I agree. Chess is boring.

What are your thoughts on Scrabble? :D

I don't play Scribble because I can't spell......... LOL

Kim

Black-Balled
11-27-2012, 12:15 PM
did someone say dog?

JAM
11-27-2012, 12:16 PM
did someone say dog?

Anchors aweigh! :grin-square:

watchez
11-27-2012, 12:24 PM
He spent 3-3.5 million $. He has lot of ideas. The man has passion.

No offense to the person that put together the bonus ball website - but if they spent $800K on cameras, and almost 3 million on their studio - they spent about $26 on their website. To me, it just doesn't jive.

Black-Balled
11-27-2012, 12:27 PM
:rotflmao::rotflmao1::rotflmao: No offense to the person that put together the bonus ball website - but if they spent $800K on cameras, and almost 3 million on their studio - they spent about $26 on their website. To me, it just doesn't jive.

JCIN
11-27-2012, 12:33 PM
No offense to the person that put together the bonus ball website - but if they spent $800K on cameras, and almost 3 million on their studio - they spent about $26 on their website. To me, it just doesn't jive.

I am guessing you are looking at the old one which is pretty janky. The http://wpbl.tv/ one is pretty good but short on actual info like whos on what team.

The $800K camera bill baffles the shit out of me and I cant even wrap my head around 3 mil. But then I don't have much vision I guess.

richiebalto
11-27-2012, 12:45 PM
Chess ... really??

Oh my what an exciting game to watch..... I would rather watch flies fucckkk.

BB is too complicated to catch on. I read all the rules and got bored half way through it......... yea yea ... I know, I have a short attention span but, so do a million other pool players.

$200 for a special set of balls........... yea right .... every home owner with a pool table will be flocking to stores to buy them. After 3 beers no one will remember which pocket they are shooting at and what ball is supposed to go there. Shittt, I forget which pocket I am shooting at in one pocket,

People won't pay to watch a game if they don't know exactly what it is that the players are trying to accomplish.

sorry... I won't be a follower.

I feel bad that the good pros are being duped again.

When this folds up, I hope it is not the death of professional pool.

Kim

I agree, 9ball, 10ball, 1pocket, 14.1 no one will ever be able to replace these games, this is pool the way it was ment to be played, i dont even know how many old school fans and players will be able to even watch such a game, iam not against bonus ball at all, i just wished that they could of keep the players playing the same games that we are so used to seeing and understand, anyway i do hope that it makes it and the players make it happen, who knows after watching it for the first time just maybe it will be a lot of fun, i hope!

richiebalto
11-27-2012, 01:00 PM
I hate to be negative, i just watch just a little bit of the Archer-Klatt bonus ball match, had to turn it off, when somebodys money runs out so does this new game, somebody or bodys are going to take a major loss here! sorry thats just my opinion.

dorabelle
11-27-2012, 01:03 PM
I hate to be negative, i just watch just a little bit of the Archer-Klatt bonus ball match, had to turn it off, when somebodys money runs out so does this new game, somebody or bodys are going to take a major loss here! sorry thats just my opinion.

I agree 100%
Hope no one who can't afford to lose money is involved in this.

JD_Hogg
11-27-2012, 01:05 PM
I agree, 9ball, 10ball, 1pocket, 14.1 no one will ever be able to replace these games, this is pool the way it was ment to be played, i dont even know how many old school fans and players will be able to even watch such a game, iam not against bonus ball at all, i just wished that they could of keep the players playing the same games that we are so used to seeing and understand, anyway i do hope that it makes it and the players make it happen, who knows after watching it for the first time just maybe it will be a lot of fun, i hope!




1pocket or 14.1 will put the casual fan to sleep before they even get a chance to change the channel.

JAM
11-27-2012, 01:10 PM
1pocket or 14.1 will put the casual fan to sleep before they even get a chance to change the channel.

You make a good point.

Let's face it, the Mosconi Cup captures the excitement in pool that we all seem to enjoy. Is it because we *know* the players involved? Is it the team spirit of rooting for one team against the other? Maybe it is witnessing the audience engagement while watching the players shooting that seems to be riveting.

Whichever it is or a combination thereof, the Mosconi Cup has it; the X Factor of pool, if you will. They're successful, but it's only an annual event. At this time, it's the cream of the crop, what most pro players desire to compete in, a once-in-a-lifetime experience for some.

This excitement is the missing ingredient in pool.

watchez
11-27-2012, 01:26 PM
I am guessing you are looking at the old one which is pretty janky. The http://wpbl.tv/ one is pretty good but short on actual info like whos on what team.

The $800K camera bill baffles the shit out of me and I cant even wrap my head around 3 mil. But then I don't have much vision I guess.

Ok - this website is much better. Looks like Nathan had his hands in this one.

But whoever is doing their Google push doesn't have a clue. ( I have to attack something). If you google bonus ball -- the wpbi.tv website doesn't even come up on the first 3 pages of search. I stopped after that to see when it does finally come up. If they pay me $50,000 --- a drop in a bucket to these guys, I'll see to it that any search for Bonus or Ball or Pro Pool League or whatever comes up with the wpbl.tv website.

Feel free to contact me here for agreement of terms

And yes 800K is astronomical - my brother built a recording studio on a bus that is all state of the art for half that amount.

Roger Long
11-27-2012, 01:30 PM
You make a good point.

Let's face it, the Mosconi Cup captures the excitement in pool that we all seem to enjoy. Is it because we *know* the players involved? Is it the team spirit of rooting for one team against the other? Maybe it is witnessing the audience engagement while watching the players shooting that seems to be riveting.

Whichever it is or a combination thereof, the Mosconi Cup has it; the X Factor of pool, if you will. They're successful, but it's only an annual event. At this time, it's the cream of the crop, what most pro players desire to compete in, a once-in-a-lifetime experience for some.

This excitement is the missing ingredient in pool.

I agree with you, JAM.

I think the Bonus Ball people are trying to include all the same attractive elements that the Mosconi Cup has, and even add a few more. They're just doing it with a little different, and a more visually colorful, game.

The videos that are up on the WPBL website are not a good example of what the finished product will look like.

Roger

SkyscraperChris
11-27-2012, 01:32 PM
What Willie said.

JD_Hogg
11-27-2012, 01:34 PM
Ok - this website is much better. Looks like Nathan had his hands in this one.

But whoever is doing their Google push doesn't have a clue. ( I have to attack something). If you google bonus ball -- the wpbi.tv website doesn't even come up on the first 3 pages of search. I stopped after that to see when it does finally come up. If they pay me $50,000 --- a drop in a bucket to these guys, I'll see to it that any search for Bonus or Ball or Pro Pool League or whatever comes up with the wpbl.tv website.

Feel free to contact me here for agreement of terms

And yes 800K is astronomical - my brother built a recording studio on a bus that is all state of the art for half that amount.




Dis aint no karaoke contest its bonus ball. If someone farts you gonna see the wind blow out their ass. Thats what extra 400g's gonna get you!!!

Luxury
11-27-2012, 02:12 PM
The easiest thing in the world to predict is that a million dollar investment into pool will not get a full ROI.

However maybe these guys just want to change the world and leave a legacy first and foremost.

My world will always be a better place with this amazing game.

Fatboy
11-27-2012, 05:44 PM
This excitement is the missing ingredient in pool.


Thats why Barry Hearn has done so well, he turned pub games into exciting games. He took darts and made it HUGE, they players are star's in Europe.

xplor
11-27-2012, 05:53 PM
You are right. But they are working stars and put in more hours a week than you do.
They put on more miles than a road player.

whammo57
11-27-2012, 07:35 PM
I hate to be negative, i just watch just a little bit of the Archer-Klatt bonus ball match, had to turn it off, when somebodys money runs out so does this new game, somebody or bodys are going to take a major loss here! sorry thats just my opinion.

I watched that match too. What's with the light color table? Is it so the balls stand out better? It might be just me hanging on to the old games but, it seems really boring to watch. I can't get myself into waiting with anticipation for the pattern to play it self out as a player plays position from the 1 ball and 2 and 3.... and on to the 9. It just seems like OH! he made a purple ball....... and now what?? And why is the blonde bimbo putting the black ball back on the table........ how come that black ball doesn't have a number 8 on it?

I looked up the teams that are set up and a lot of big names are there. I do really hope it flies but I can't see it happening.

Any business that is successful has an income stream......... where is it???


Kim

dorabelle
11-27-2012, 07:43 PM
I watched that match too. What's with the light color table? Is it so the balls stand out better? It might be just me hanging on to the old games but, it seems really boring to watch. I can't get myself into waiting with anticipation for the pattern to play it self out as a player plays position from the 1 ball and 2 and 3.... and on to the 9. It just seems like OH! he made a purple ball....... and now what?? And why is the blonde bimbo putting the black ball back on the table........ how come that black ball doesn't have a number 8 on it?

I looked up the teams that are set up and a lot of big names are there. I do really hope it flies but I can't see it happening.

Any business that is successful has an income stream......... where is it???


Kim

Think the guy said expected revenue is:
PPV now
Merchandise soon
TV Maybe sometime in the future
Leagues maybe sometime in the future.


But right now PPV

JB Cases
11-27-2012, 08:08 PM
1pocket or 14.1 will put the casual fan to sleep before they even get a chance to change the channel.

It puts hard core fans to sleep as well. On average it takes me about 26 hours to get through a one hour pocket match. :-)

Getting through the famous 100 minute rack between Hopkins and Varner took me about six months.

nathandumoulin
11-28-2012, 12:22 AM
I am guessing you are looking at the old one which is pretty janky. The http://wpbl.tv/ one is pretty good but short on actual info like whos on what team.

The $800K camera bill baffles the shit out of me and I cant even wrap my head around 3 mil. But then I don't have much vision I guess.

The website will triple in content this week now that I have the players here to acquire the actual content.

And just to clarify, I can't blame you for not being able to wrap your head around the $800k figure for cameras. There's a reason for that though, and the reason is gossip and misinformation. That figure is bloated by over 20-fold. Almost all I've read over the past few days is horribly inaccurate.

No matter what the truth is, people will always find a way belittle other people's honest efforts.

DeadStick
11-28-2012, 12:36 AM
No matter what the truth is, people will always find a way belittle other people's honest efforts.

The Man in the Arena

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

- Theodore Roosevelt, 1910

AtLarge
11-28-2012, 12:41 AM
... The http://wpbl.tv/ one is pretty good but short on actual info like whos on what team. ...

The rosters are there. Click on "WPBL Team Rosters Announced" in the Headlines section. (Maybe this was added after you looked; I don't know.)

JB Cases
11-28-2012, 12:50 AM
The website will triple in content this week now that I have the players here to acquire the actual content.

And just to clarify, I can't blame you for not being able to wrap your head around the $800k figure for cameras. There's a reason for that though, and the reason is gossip and misinformation. That figure is bloated by over 20-fold. Almost all I've read over the past few days is horribly inaccurate.

No matter what the truth is, people will always find a way belittle other people's honest efforts.

You guys are like third graders....you're friends and you are in the same city, knock down some beers and work it out.

Both of you rock balls when it comes to promoting pool, both of you have a body of work so far that in my opinion qualifies you for the hall of fame at some point.

Justin you know how the pool world works. Two guys playing in the corner for 10 a game even becomes one of them getting the nuts for a dime by the time the news hits the front counter.

Nathan, put down the keyboard bro, you have a TON of stuff to be doing and right now dealing with haters and upsetting people who can be your biggest cheerleaders isn't the way to go. If I know anything I know haters. And I know that it's not hard to turn good folks into haters. SO right now my advice is to back off and do your thing.

Personally I wasn't going to commit to a full season of BB but now I am. I will spend the $10 a week and actually watch a real live league season among the pros. I know what sort of work you're in for. Rock it and let the results be what's talked about and leave the speculation to the folks who are just wanting to get their daily dose of free forum entertainment.

nathandumoulin
11-28-2012, 02:05 AM
You guys are like third graders....you're friends and you are in the same city, knock down some beers and work it out.

Wait...what? I'm not sure if I'm blind, but I didn't intend that to be even remotely hostile. Did you completely misinterpret my post, or am I going crazy? I may not get along with Justin, but I actually respect almost everything he says. Hell, even when he talks down about something I'm involved in, he's usually right.

As far as myself is concerned, I think I've made maybe a total of 5 posts this entire week, none of which were even remotely dramatic, spiteful, or intended to stir up shit.

EDIT. If you're referring to the last part about belittling others efforts, that was a generalization about the forum. As far as I know, the statement of Justin's that I quoted didn't really say anything poorly about me either. I have no doubt that his opinion of Bonus Ball has nothing to do with me whatsoever.

justadub
11-28-2012, 05:47 AM
And just to clarify, I can't blame you for not being able to wrap your head around the $800k figure for cameras. There's a reason for that though, and the reason is gossip and misinformation. That figure is bloated by over 20-fold. Almost all I've read over the past few days is horribly inaccurate.



From earlier in this thread....

"Just to give an example- larry bought Cameras and paraphernalia for cameras costing him Eight Hundred thousands+ dollars. The man has Passion."

Where do you suppose this poster got that number, just pulled it out of his whoo-hoo? Someone said it to him..Perhaps it was out of context, and perhaps not. But you folks involved have to control your information flow.

Otherwise you have to spend far more time correcting things, and defending the product, as opposed to promoting it.

Roger Long
11-28-2012, 09:11 AM
Could it be that they bought eight-hundred-thousand dollar's worth of camera equipment at a far lower price than eight-hundred-thousand dollars? Who knows? In today's economy, good deals can be found on almost anything.

One thing I do know for sure: I like that case in JB's signature!

Roger

Cory in DC
11-28-2012, 11:15 AM
The Man in the Arena

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

- Theodore Roosevelt, 1910

That sums it up very nicely! It is now as it ever was...

lfigueroa
11-28-2012, 11:45 AM
The Man in the Arena

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

- Theodore Roosevelt, 1910


Ah, ya. But sometimes that arena is ground floor at The Roman Colosseum and what's behind door #3 is licking its chops looking for a quick Happy Meal. IOW, while Teddy's words are oft true, not everyone is ready for prime time in the arena.

Lou Figueroa

CreeDo
11-28-2012, 12:05 PM
Really?

New Coke. Windows Vista. Sony Betamax.

I would agree that there's only so much you can polish a turd.

But playing devil's advocate, you can definitely take an inferior product and get it to beat competitors strictly through slick marketing. And the things in this list arguably are a testament to the power of marketing.

New Coke: though eventually hated by many, the initial push was positive thanks to marketing, getting coke a slight bump in sales compared to the year before. And after it fizzled out, marketing the old formula as "classic coke" allowed coke to mount a miracle comeback and turn the tides on pepsi. Coke's hundred-year-old flavor was losing ground to pepsi in a big way, but after new coke flopped, that same old boring flavor was now skyrocketing in sales... leading some conspiracy theorists to wonder if new coke wasn't just a clever marketing trick.

Beta: arguably technically superior to VHS, but better marketing probably played a big role in VHS winning the format war.

Vista: lots of negative press, but it ended up on lots of computers anyway and there's no question it was profitable. Pool's wildest success probably wouldn't be half as profitable as Vista's "failure".

I don't think there's anything about Bonus Ball that's so distasteful that even the best marketing couldn't make it a success. Unfortunately, "the best marketing" is not available. But I'm hoping what they've got can lead it to profitability.

Jeff M
11-28-2012, 12:17 PM
None of this will work great (bonus ball included) if pool is not promoted more to the younger generations. Maybe some kids might start picking up pool cues instead of golf clubs? I just wish in the States we had more pool in primary and high schools. But all of us pool players should do our part to introduce the game to others if we actually want it to succeed professionally some day. It's not like there are no great players that conduct themselves in a great manner that kids couldn't look up to.

Maybe we should look at everything that has been done in snooker professionally overseas. Or maybe in America we only prefer sports where you get to smash someone's head in? lol I doubt all feel that way. Golf does pretty damn good. I used to play golf. Started pool and realized it is the best game in the world. Haven't picked up a golf club since.

JCIN
11-28-2012, 01:11 PM
The website will triple in content this week now that I have the players here to acquire the actual content.

And just to clarify, I can't blame you for not being able to wrap your head around the $800k figure for cameras. There's a reason for that though, and the reason is gossip and misinformation. That figure is bloated by over 20-fold. Almost all I've read over the past few days is horribly inaccurate.

No matter what the truth is, people will always find a way belittle other people's honest efforts.

Welcome to the internet.

That 800K figure was put out as having come from Larry's mouth. So either Ravi is full of shit or Larry is. Most of these posts about numbers have "Larry told me" in front of them. That doesnt make it true but it may be a clue.

Playing the victim card this early doesnt help you either. You guys should get your shit together, designate one person to handle online marketing who doesnt piss people off at the cyclic rate and try to get the die hard fans behind bonus ball. I would recommend Dave or Lenny and fine anyone else who posts here. I have no doubt the final product is going to look good and probably be somewhat interesting but if people are turned off already they will never watch it.

I understand not wanting to be told how to do something. I am bad for that myself. But sometimes when you are standing on your crank with golf shoes on it pays to listen to the guy next you when he tells you to take a step to the side.

Blue Hog ridr
11-28-2012, 03:54 PM
But sometimes when you are standing on your crank with golf shoes on it pays to listen to the guy next you when he tells you to take a step to the side.

Another Justinism.

Ya know, if I didn't know better, I'd swear you have a writer cranking out this stuff for you.

Jaden
11-28-2012, 04:04 PM
I would agree that there's only so much you can polish a turd.

But playing devil's advocate, you can definitely take an inferior product and get it to beat competitors strictly through slick marketing. And the things in this list arguably are a testament to the power of marketing.

New Coke: though eventually hated by many, the initial push was positive thanks to marketing, getting coke a slight bump in sales compared to the year before. And after it fizzled out, marketing the old formula as "classic coke" allowed coke to mount a miracle comeback and turn the tides on pepsi. Coke's hundred-year-old flavor was losing ground to pepsi in a big way, but after new coke flopped, that same old boring flavor was now skyrocketing in sales... leading some conspiracy theorists to wonder if new coke wasn't just a clever marketing trick.

Beta: arguably technically superior to VHS, but better marketing probably played a big role in VHS winning the format war.

Vista: lots of negative press, but it ended up on lots of computers anyway and there's no question it was profitable. Pool's wildest success probably wouldn't be half as profitable as Vista's "failure".

I don't think there's anything about Bonus Ball that's so distasteful that even the best marketing couldn't make it a success. Unfortunately, "the best marketing" is not available. But I'm hoping what they've got can lead it to profitability.

The other two were superior products with bad marketing.

New coke should not have replaced original coke. They should have marketed them together. New coke was more like pepsi but they alienated the customers who liked coke and couldn't hope to take enough of pepsi drinkers away from pepsi for it to be worth it, by the time they reintroduced coke classic, the damage had been done and new coke was a goner.

Betamax had far superior audio quality to VHS, again it was bad marketing that did in betamax. If Sony would've licensed it out to a few vendors and not tried to hold the market on it completely themselves, the market wouldn't have been saturated with VHS and they may have won that war.

Apple almost went under a couple of times from the same mistake of not licensing out macintosh computers. It was only a few excellent marketing ploys I-Mac and new creations, Ipod, Iphone etc... that prevented Apple from being a historical blip.

Without Jobs to save them the next time they make a fundamental error, I doubt they will survive another one...

Jaden

JB Cases
11-28-2012, 11:58 PM
Ah, ya. But sometimes that arena is ground floor at The Roman Colosseum and what's behind door #3 is licking its chops looking for a quick Happy Meal. IOW, while Teddy's words are oft true, not everyone is ready for prime time in the arena.

Lou Figueroa

But it's the guy who actually gets out there who has the shot at glory and not the guy who criticizes from the sidelines.

You may be killed by the lion but if you manage to kill him then you are the one remembered with statues built in tribute for all eternity. The words Teddy spoke ring true for all time and for everyone.

It is the doer of deeds that makes the world work not the critic. Only two things can happen when you try, fail or succeed. Only those who try get those options whether they are deemed ready or not by those on the sidelines.

The cheapest thing in the world is ideas with no action and the next cheapest thing is the critique of those ideas.

Blue Hog ridr
11-29-2012, 12:32 AM
Actually the cheapest thing is that gross draft they sell in plastic liter bottles
at the off sale in Canada.