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View Full Version : Poll: Bonus Ball: More Support Playing 8, 9, Or 10 Ball?


jimmyg
11-26-2012, 08:15 AM
I believe that the regional "team" concept of BB is a good one, and properly funded and marketed would have a fair chance of success.

That said, I can't understand the strategic benefit of creating and introducing an entirely "new" game as part of the concept.

So the question is: Do you think that Bonus Ball would have had greater support within the pool community had they opted to play 8, 9, or 10 ball rather than "bonus ball"?

J

krupa
11-26-2012, 08:30 AM
You forgot the "none of the above" option.

The people I know (standard league players) fall into three categories:

1) Those who don't know (or care) who the pros are or what they play.
2) Those who know who pros are but are close-minded and think that there is one, best game. These guys scoff at Bonus Ball, 14.1, and 9-ball.
3) Those who know who pros are and will watch pros play any game.

I fall into #3. At first I wasn't much into BB, but after watching it for a bit, I found that it's an interesting game and no better or worse than any other game. I don't like some of the mechanics of the game (for example, the 14.1-like break shot in the middle) but those are personal preferences. I also don't like the Designated Hitter rule in baseball but that doesn't keep me from enjoying the game.

punter
11-26-2012, 08:45 AM
I haven't seen BB played, don't know all the rules, so I don't know if I'll like it or not. My initial reaction is I don't think a new game is necessary, but maybe I'll love it, I'll watch some and give it a chance. I'm more in line with some of the ideas CJ Wiley had about player recognition and identification with them as personalities.

LHP5
11-26-2012, 09:19 AM
I just don't get bonus ball. It's like a combination straight pool + snooker + 9-ball. You must score points like in straight pool and snooker, there is a pattern to play like 9-ball and snooker, there is a "bonus" ball to shoot after the pattern kind of like in snooker, and then theres the rack which is almost like 9-ball. The game seems to be a hybrid of snooker adapted to a pool table. I'm thinking whoever created bonus ball probably thought there was something about snooker which garnered appeal to the masses in Europe and Asia. They probably thought if snooker works over there but not here in the US, maybe a game incorporating aspects of snooker and the other games that are popular here in the US will set the pool world on fire. I hope it works, it's just that it kind of looks like the person who created it tried to fuse a lot of games into one.

I guess I'm in the group that does't think pool needs another game, but I am always open to new things. It's just that for some reason bonus ball has no appeal to me. I think it has something to do with the look and sound of the game. It seems since forever that the many games of pool were played with numbered balls, 1 through 15, half solid, and the other half striped. Bonus Ball requires a totally different set with different colors and a totally different look. One of the best things in pool was that you could transition from 9-ball to 8-ball to straight pool with the same set of balls instantly. With Bonus Ball you need a different set that has a sole purpose of playing one game. Then there's the name of Bonus Ball. It doesn't sound like I'm about to shoot some pool, it sounds like I'm about to play the lottery. Just google bonus ball and see what comes up. Again, I'm not trying to bash the game and really do hope some sort of professional league takes off, but i just don't see bonus ball as that league or game. It just seems to different to even be considered pool.

pwd72s
11-26-2012, 09:57 AM
Some day I may be able to figure out what the fuss is about...

jhanso18
11-26-2012, 10:21 AM
I'm all for what ever helps pool.

BB however seems to self serving. It lacks in several area's, and I don't think it to be nearly as noble as it claims to be. I like the game, I don't like how the "league" is being set up.

best,

Justin

Roger Long
11-26-2012, 10:25 AM
I voted "Yes - More Support Playing 10-Ball" because I believe that is what the "pool community" would support in this present time. But the "pool community" has not ever been, or will ever be, able to get professional pool off the ground. A whole new game and structure is needed for that, and I think Bonus Ball may be just the thing to do it.

Roger

jimmyg
11-26-2012, 11:04 AM
I voted "Yes - More Support Playing 10-Ball" because I believe that is what the "pool community" would support in this present time. But the "pool community" has not ever been, or will ever be, able to get professional pool off the ground. A whole new game and structure is needed for that, and I think Bonus Ball may be just the thing to do it.

Roger

I appreciate your reply and vote.

The "pool community" is the consumer, the end user, his position here is participate and support the sport, not to "get professional pool off the ground", which is the businessman, developer and promoter's responsibility.

I don't believe that the games of pool was/is the problem here, most games have maintained their popularity for at least a hundred years, hardly a poor display of success and support. The problem with getting "professional pool off the ground" is, more likely, an issue with the people involved in the development, promotional, and business end of the game, but that's an entirely different thread.

Personally, I believe that anyone intent on entering an existing industry with the apparent initial intent of total transformation and domination had better be an inventive genius, a master businessman/promoter, and have unlimited funding.

And, as I wrote in my initial post, I believe that BB would have had much more support if they had chosen 8, 9, or 10 ball. IMO.

J

CreeDo
11-26-2012, 11:09 AM
I don't know if "pool teams" would cause a new pool endeavor to become popular, though I get the thinking... having teams to root for is a good ingredient when trying to make any sport popular.

Krupa's got it right. Currently, I could walk into a pool hall and say "Right now, the United States team is lagging 12 points behind Team Europe and 7 points being Team China in the World Pool Team Tournament, they're playing for $100,000 grand prize"

...and half the people in the pool hall would just say "oh really? cool". They'd swallow it because they don't know or care what teams, tournaments, or players are involved in professional pool.

A bunch of others would say "oh really? I'm into pool but hadn't heard about that event" ('into pool' means they've heard of earl and efren, in addition to the black widow).

And the 7 guys in the pool hall that are serious about pool, who already know about AZB and TAR and have heard of Shane or Orcullo... those guys would know I'm just making it up. I honestly think these are the only guys who would actively care and root for the "LA Wave", whether the Wave is playing bonus ball or 9 ball.

DrOnePocket
11-26-2012, 11:12 AM
Whoops! My mistake, i voted wrong. Take one away from Bonus ball and add one for 8 ball.

I like the game itself but to think they will get people who don't even play the game to support a tour is silly IMO. I would watch if it were free. The only PPV I will pay for these days is something from Accu-Stats or TAR that is a format I like and players I like. There are a few recently i would have bought that I didn't because i wasn't home to watch.

I want to see top players gambling at one pocket on a tight 9'. That's what I personally will pay for

jimmyg
11-30-2012, 11:54 AM
Small voting response so far, but it looks like BB has about 20% of the votes.

J

dorabelle
11-30-2012, 12:57 PM
I love games I'm familiar with. I watched BB and opulent follow it. It was like a purple ball then an orange ball and then the black shot into 3 holes. Couldnt get into it.

RobMan
11-30-2012, 01:03 PM
Small voting response so far, but it looks like BB only has about 20% of the votes.

J

I think "only" is a bad choice of words here. It is basically tied with 8 and nine ball at 24% each, so it can be spun anyway. When you have multiple questions in a poll, naturally there will be a spread. We could say that nine ball ONLY got xxx% as well.

Nevertheless, the three other categories combined are definitely the majority.

jimmyg
11-30-2012, 01:30 PM
I think "only" is a bad choice of words here. It is basically tied with 8 and nine ball at 24% each, so it can be spun anyway. When you have multiple questions in a poll, naturally there will be a spread. We could say that nine ball ONLY got xxx% as well.

Nevertheless, the three other categories combined are definitely the majority.

According to the official internet voting and election laws, I am not allowed to influence the voting, therefore "only" should not have been included and will be deleted. :smile:

The balance of your analysis seems to be correct, the other three are definitely the majority.

Let's see how it turns out.

J

jimmyg
12-02-2012, 11:48 AM
Boy, did this BB poll thread go nowhere fast.....:frown: Thought that it would turn out to be much more interesting and, possibly revealing.

Okay, not to leave a job incomplete, let's see what we have, and what, if anything, we can make of it.

Summary: 38 total votes.

BB received 7 votes (one voter stated that he intended on voting for 8 ball) or 18%

8 Ball received 13* votes or 34%

9 Ball received 7 votes or 18%

10 Ball received 11 votes or 29%

Another way of looking at this is that 82% of the 38 voters would give more support to the general BB concept if they played any other game but BB. Interesting.

Commentary: While 38 votes is a very small number of votes, way too small to make any statistical determinations, 82% is an awfully strong number. Especially if we consider that a few of those BB votes may have come from people with a vested interest in it's promotion. I don't imagine that anyone truly has a vested interest in it's failure to counteract that possibility.

My thoughts here are unbiased, I have no personal or financial interest in BB, in fact, if anything, I lean towards wishing for their (and therefore pool's) success. But, assuming that the promoters of BB are at least as smart as the average person here, they must also realize that going with an existing and already popular game would have been the path of least resistance? Makes little sense unless they know something that we don't, possibly already have a "lock" to the next level. Just a thought.

Again, best of luck to everyone in BB.

J

Mr Hoppe
12-02-2012, 11:58 AM
I agree, the regional team aspect is a very good one, but I think the game is the downfall. Would like to see regional team 10-ball of some kind. 10-ball has all the momentum right now, and BB is just a distraction from it.

weakfingers
12-02-2012, 02:37 PM
And, as I wrote in my initial post, I believe that BB would have had much more support if they had chosen 8, 9, or 10 ball. IMO.

I agree with you 100% on this.

Why create an entirely new game? I'd love the concept if all the money was invested into a game that has been proven to be exciting, familiar, etc.

Imagine all the teams and high quality broadcast toward 8 or 9 ball (familiar games). Add a 20 second shot clock and I think it'd be a hit.

Fatboy
12-02-2012, 02:58 PM
8 ball only because everyone knows what it is, everything else is meaningless.

go to time square ask 100 people about 8,9,10 ball and see how many know what 9,10 ball is. you might get 1-2 people on a good day, 8 ball is the most widely known game. IPT had that right.

BB is a new game, lots of rules and tricky to watch especially for people who only "get" 8 ball, too steep of a learning curve IMO. I get it cause I can play pool so I watched the 3 videos 2 times each and i'm on board but mainly because I understand pool, if I was a banger it would a bit much.

I still think the city idea and everything else is great and hope they do great, pool needs all the help it can get, I just think BB being a "new" pool game is a little to far out side the box. I hope I'm wrong.

eddie0776
12-10-2012, 08:46 AM
There are so many pros and cons to the BB idea....the guys playing it are all gonna say its great for our sport, but they are paid to. If they had picked a game that the local leagues played I could see people paying for the ppv, but a totally new game that the average league player has no clue how to follow or play just seems like a bad idea. I like the idea of the game, but I fear it will become a fad. Until it catches on with leagues like the bca or apa I feel it wont make it through 2 seasons. The ppv is gonna kill it and without the ppv or sponsers it will fail to lack of money. Catch 22. Just my 2 cents

Roger Long
12-10-2012, 12:45 PM
There are so many pros and cons to the BB idea....the guys playing it are all gonna say its great for our sport, but they are paid to. If they had picked a game that the local leagues played I could see people paying for the ppv, but a totally new game that the average league player has no clue how to follow or play just seems like a bad idea. I like the idea of the game, but I fear it will become a fad. Until it catches on with leagues like the bca or apa I feel it wont make it through 2 seasons. The ppv is gonna kill it and without the ppv or sponsers it will fail to lack of money. Catch 22. Just my 2 cents

The guys playing Bonus Ball are hoping it will be great for our sport, but they are not saying it WILL be great, as you claim. That's something that remains to be seen. What they are saying is that it is a great game, and they are saying so, not because they are being paid to say so, but because they really believe it is. They are being paid to play, and that's all they are being paid for.

Roger

eddie0776
12-10-2012, 01:11 PM
The guys playing Bonus Ball are hoping it will be great for our sport, but they are not saying it WILL be great, as you claim. That's something that remains to be seen. What they are saying is that it is a great game, and they are saying so, not because they are being paid to say so, but because they really believe it is. They are being paid to play, and that's all they are being paid for.

Roger

What I was saying is they are saying it is a great game and yes they are being paid to say it. If you work at Ford you are gonna say that Ford has the best product. In other words if the product fails you are out of a job. They are being paid to work there and promote the product. I'm not saying its a bad thing just not sure if it will catch on. Again just my 2 cents.

jimmyg
12-27-2012, 07:01 AM
With a few more votes, the results speak for themselves, most voters, myself included, believe that BB was/is not the best choice in an otherwise good business and marketing plan.

I also believe that these results were/are quite predictable, and find it very "unusual" and puzzling if the developers of BB didn't also realize this. I can't help but wonder what the reasoning behind their choice to ignore the obvious was.

Time will tell. :)

J

AtLarge
12-27-2012, 12:44 PM
... So the question is: Do you think that Bonus Ball would have had greater support within the pool community had they opted to play 8, 9, or 10 ball rather than "bonus ball"? ...

But what if the ultimate target market is not the current "pool community"? What if it is people who currently know nothing about 8-, 9-, or 10-ball? What if the objective was to develop a game that would be interesting for people who currently carry no pool baggage at all?

jalapus logan
12-27-2012, 01:11 PM
But what if the ultimate target market is not the current "pool community"? What if it is people who currently know nothing about 8-, 9-, or 10-ball? What if the objective was to develop a game that would be interesting for people who currently carry no pool baggage at all?

I hear what you're saying, but I think that if the target market is people who have not heard of the games you have mentioned, then they have not ever seen a pool table before, period. In the states at least, pool is synonymous with 8 ball, end of story. I thought that way too until the first time I saw the diamond pattern rack of 9 ball in my first pool hall at age 17. I thought that pool was 8 ball and that was the only game that ever existed. I'm sure many out there have a similar notion.

Ralph Kramden
12-27-2012, 01:19 PM
So the question is: Do you think that Bonus Ball would have had greater support within the pool community had they opted to play 8, 9, or 10 ball rather than "bonus ball"? J

I'm somewhat confused why 1 question was started with a No vote and 3 questions started with a Yes vote.

I would like to see a game using 4 stripes and 4 solid balls. ( The first ball that pockets is your group of 4 )
Every time a ball in your group pockets, you must pocket the 8. The 8 spots center table, as in bonus ball.
You win after pocketing the 8 after all the 4 balls in your own group pocket. Scoring could be for points.

It would be similar to 8 ball, faster, and everyone would understand the rules quickly, unlike Bonus Ball. IMO

jimmyg
12-27-2012, 01:37 PM
But what if the ultimate target market is not the current "pool community"? What if it is people who currently know nothing about 8-, 9-, or 10-ball? What if the objective was to develop a game that would be interesting for people who currently carry no pool baggage at all?

I'm sure that in the mind of every "creator", the ultimate target market is to capture a "national" and "international" clientele, that's always the dream. But, without major national media marketing efforts and exposure, national and/or international corporate sponsors, media coverage guarantees, major money backers, first rate business talent, immediate player recognition, and much more, it's not very likely.

BB is making a very good attempt to reach their target market, the pool player, their current effort is to deliver their product via internet streaming, and they are here on AZ trying to gain support from the pool community. Their efforts, and business plan, are certainly noteworthy and valiant, but far from what is necessary to target and capture the general public. IMO.

J

AtLarge
12-27-2012, 01:50 PM
... Their efforts, and business plan, are certainly noteworthy and valiant, but far from what is necessary to target and capture the general public. ...

For what we know of it so far, true.

Mark Griffin
12-27-2012, 02:19 PM
I am in sketchy service area or I would go into my thoughts a little bit more. Some of the posts are (IMO) very spot on - others are way off.

I am in favor of whatever will help pool in the long run.

My fear is that this will just show the pool world that no matter how much money is thrown at pool, it cannot succeed and become more popular.

BUT that is the wrong answer! There is an answer for pool.

Hopefully aftere the first of the year, I will be able to elaborate in a. Little more detail.

I will say this - if I had the money the IPT put into pool, it would have done more good. Sadly, i feel the same things towards Bonus Ball.

As said before, I wish BB the best luck in the world. But so many of the answers are really kind obvious. All it takes is some communication.

Mark Griffin

Houstoer
12-27-2012, 02:26 PM
I don't know if "pool teams" would cause a new pool endeavor to become popular, though I get the thinking... having teams to root for is a good ingredient when trying to make any sport popular.

Krupa's got it right. Currently, I could walk into a pool hall and say "Right now, the United States team is lagging 12 points behind Team Europe and 7 points being Team China in the World Pool Team Tournament, they're playing for $100,000 grand prize"

...and half the people in the pool hall would just say "oh really? cool". They'd swallow it because they don't know or care what teams, tournaments, or players are involved in professional pool.

A bunch of others would say "oh really? I'm into pool but hadn't heard about that event" ('into pool' means they've heard of earl and efren, in addition to the black widow).

And the 7 guys in the pool hall that are serious about pool, who already know about AZB and TAR and have heard of Shane or Orcullo... those guys would know I'm just making it up. I honestly think these are the only guys who would actively care and root for the "LA Wave", whether the Wave is playing bonus ball or 9 ball.

I think you have it right on the mark ! I'm amazed whenever I play here and see guys play everyday day in a day out and we get to talking about shots or something and I say I read so and so on azbillards and they say what is that? these are guys that play good and play alot but if they even don't know what az is what fate do you really think bonus ball will have?

jimmyg
12-28-2012, 01:14 PM
I am in sketchy service area or I would go into my thoughts a little bit more. Some of the posts are (IMO) very spot on - others are way off.

I am in favor of whatever will help pool in the long run.

My fear is that this will just show the pool world that no matter how much money is thrown at pool, it cannot succeed and become more popular.

BUT that is the wrong answer! There is an answer for pool.

Hopefully aftere the first of the year, I will be able to elaborate in a. Little more detail.

I will say this - if I had the money the IPT put into pool, it would have done more good. Sadly, i feel the same things towards Bonus Ball.

As said before, I wish BB the best luck in the world. But so many of the answers are really kind obvious. All it takes is some communication.

Mark Griffin

Of course there is an answer Mark....and everyone will immediately know it when they see it. It will be clearly recognizable, will blend in, and will benefit the entire "community", that's the key which will allow it to work. It will not involve a con man with a Ponzi qualifier business model, nor a new game and equipment creation.

I, too, wish BB the best of luck, but I wonder why they ignore the constructive feedback.

J

ChrisBanks
12-28-2012, 01:24 PM
I'm sorry but you've all got it wrong. One Pocket is the primary game that should be played. I would rather be poor playing one pocket, than rich playing 8-ball.

jimmyg
12-28-2012, 01:40 PM
I'm sorry but you've all got it wrong. One Pocket is the primary game that should be played. I would rather be poor playing one pocket, than rich playing 8-ball.

I'm not personally suggesting that they should play 8 Ball, or any other game, in fact, I voted for 10 Ball. It's a poll, this is what the voters support. Sorry I omitted one pocket, but I thought that it was just too long a game.

J

ENGLISH!
12-28-2012, 01:40 PM
I'm sorry but you've all got it wrong. One Pocket is the primary game that should be played. I would rather be poor playing one pocket, than rich playing 8-ball.

Just curious. Do you think a table should be made with only the two corner pocket?

Earl Strickland is seriously advocating a table with no side pockets.

thewhiffer
12-28-2012, 01:41 PM
Took me awhile. Did not take to Bonus Ball initially (I prefer watching 8 ball or 10 Ball on the 10' table) but after watching the matches that they have on their web site and taking the time to absorb the rules/strategies etc. I quite like it.

ChrisBanks
12-28-2012, 01:44 PM
Just curious. Do you think a table should be made with only the two corner pocket?

Earl Strickland is seriously advocating a table wit no side pockets.

If Earl says it, I agree with him. I'm even going to buy a long cue like he had.

ENGLISH!
12-28-2012, 01:47 PM
If Earl says it, I agree with him. I'm even going to buy a long cue like he had.

What about the two pocket table for one pocket? Do you think it would enhance the game?

ChrisBanks
12-28-2012, 01:55 PM
What about the two pocket table for one pocket? Do you think it would enhance the game?

I have no idea. If my memory serves me right, there have been a few two-pocket tables in existence, maybe one in Chicago. Freddy would be the one to ask about this.

CreeDo
12-28-2012, 02:35 PM
What about the two pocket table for one pocket? Do you think it would enhance the game?

That's kind of a cool idea. I wonder if it wouldn't break the game down a little though. Players wedge the balls up there, and usually one of them falls in the hole and gets back in place. But without the hole, it seems like you have to almost sell out a bank to get balls back in play.

vpbb123
12-29-2012, 12:42 AM
Ultimately, the answer of all your questions lies inside the mind of the two promoters. I was from a racing promotion back ground who loved banging balls! Eight Ball was all I loved because it was all I knew! I first saw it in the bars as a game called Boston and then simply as solid and stripes! Neither name is any better than Bonus Ball or Jaberwocky for that matter! As I improved my game the more I wanted to play more difficult games. As you gain cue ball control, you also make the game of eight ball less exciting. That is, unless
you love potting balls, and there is nothing wrong with that. I was searching for more than that when I first met Larry and his interesting game! Part Snooker and part pool!

The first thing I recognised was the difference between the top amateur pool player and the "pros" was not much at all playing eight ball. I saw Shane Van Boening almost knocked to the B side in his first match at an amateur pool tournament by somebody I never heard of. Now, I knew before Earl Strickland first said to me...no plumber, electrician or any other part time player would beat him playing Bonus Ball. I truly believe that is the way professional pool needs to be.

In Nascar, Bill Frances built his sport by making that insanely fast two and a half mile track (daytona) and said ok boys, get on it! What it did was seperate the men from the boys! I can drive head to head on a local dirt track with any of the top NASCAR drivers but throw me against them on a mile paved track and im toast. Nobody in the racing community longs for NASCAR and the top professionals to drive dirt track modifieds like mine! I still watch NAScAR. Why do pool player insist that professionals should play simple games like Eight ball?

Bonus Ball, the game does seperate the men from the boys. That is why Larry chose to play this unknown game as the game of choice of his professional league. A gamble? Probably, the reasoning, simple, to seperate the men and the boys. The most complete and utterly devastating nine ball player this year at the US Open, actually looks rather average in the Bonus Ball videos. www.wpbl.tv

To be fair, your going to see some average nine ball players look insanely good playing Bonus Ball! The Bonus Ball Break and Shoot, totally takes away the huge breaking advantage and that levels the playing field. In this game you need to possess a lot of the all around skills found in one pocket and bank pool. Why? The three pockets of Bonus Ball. It plays a lot more like One pocket at full speed which many agree is a fantastic and strategic game.

To end this rather short story on why the hell Chiborak has stuck by the hard choice of presenting Bonus Ball as the game of the WPBL professionals is nothing against any of the other games mentioned. It is because this game is really exciting, strategic and challenging to play! Take some time and simply watch the game, the strategy and how much harder it is for players to keep holding position for only three pockets and then maybe you can understand the substance of this game! It is structured beautifully! Many of the top players in the world helped Larry structure it from Darren Appleton, Johnny Archer and the world famous, Mike Massey!


Larry's league is a crap shoot if will it generate the excitement and income to make billiards an accepted sport outside the world of nine ball or eight ball. Especially to people that don't have the vision of the Canadian who invented basketball in Canada, in a country that loves hockey. The vision of NASCAR that decided to build a big bloody insane fast race track to make their professionals above the rest of the local drivers. The vision of a great American who decided he wanted to make the United States the first country to put a man on the moon! Larry will go down in history as either a great visionary or another poor pool promoter. He should never walk away from billiards looking as a failure if this does not work out for him! The game will continue to gather a following either way. It's simply a real good billiard game! Thank you Larry Chiborak for pioneering this game! I love Bonus Ball!

PS next time let me hire the dam construction company for the next venue in New York!

justadub
12-29-2012, 06:25 AM
That's kind of a cool idea. I wonder if it wouldn't break the game down a little though. Players wedge the balls up there, and usually one of them falls in the hole and gets back in place. But without the hole, it seems like you have to almost sell out a bank to get balls back in play.

Real King Cobra had photo's on here about a Diamond with a rail set that could be changed out to leave a table with just two pockets. Too lazy to search for a link.

BobTfromIL
12-29-2012, 09:30 AM
Just thinking what would the threads be like if they had chosen 8 ball, 9 ball
or 10 ball instead of BB?

EDRJR
12-29-2012, 09:37 AM
Since they invented the game, doesn't that stop anyone from creating a cheaper version of what they do and being in direct competition with them? I watch mixed martial arts when I am searching through the channels and if it wasn't for the boxing ring/octagon, I wouldn't know or care which organization was sanctioning it. If it's a good fight, I watch, if it ain't, on to the next channel.

jimmyg
12-29-2012, 10:54 AM
Just thinking what would the threads be like if they had chosen 8 ball, 9 ball
or 10 ball instead of BB?

No way of knowing for sure, but I imagine much more supportive.....at least according to the poll results.

J

vpbb123
12-29-2012, 11:39 PM
The first time I introduced Bonus Ball to league players was by having an eight ball regular season first! We had over 100 players and added $10K to the pot! When the play-offs began, we introduced Bonus Ball to the players. they played three different sets in their races. The first set was race to 7 in eight ball, race to 5 in Bonus Ball and then the final set was nine ball. The total race was to 15. So if the players were at 7-5 for example, they played nine ball until someone hit 15.

Im not going to lie, this is how I would have structured the WPBL if I was the commissioner. Something like this anyhow. I suggested it but it fell on deaf ears. After the amateur play-offs, nobody had anything bad but all good things to say about Bonus Ball. The next season, we went to all Bonus Ball. Mostly all the best players in Winnipeg came out to play. The lower level players did not play. Some did And they had fun, many visits but they did not win a lot of matches. Still in Winnipeg, some players would not give it a chance! Now that has changed. They have seen the professional players playing it. They saw Berry McLean, Shannon Ducharme and Jerrod Spence all playing Bonus Ball as team. Those are probably as good of an amateur team as you would find. It takes time to launch anything and Bonus Ball is going to increase it's market slowly, one day at a time!

Bonus Ball is not a fringe game. It is a well structured and designed game for television and top players. Will it survive by itself? Only if it is entertaining. I will buy a ticket to the TAR match simply because I want to support Justin and the two pro's that are going to benefit from my ticket purchase. I'm starving to watch top notch pool and Darren and Shane are as good as it gets. Does not matter to me what game you support. I play them all and they all make me a better player. The cost of a ticket is a very inexpensive lesson on how to improve your game. Bonus Ball will absolutely improve your game but more so when you play it. Have a Happy New Year everyone!

backplaying
12-30-2012, 12:44 AM
I love games I'm familiar with. I watched BB and opulent follow it. It was like a purple ball then an orange ball and then the black shot into 3 holes. Couldnt get into it.

Here's the thing I question about it, will people take the time to learn the game? I just can't see anyone being a fan without completely understanding whats going on, and how many will lose interest before watching enough to learn it? I think this is a more accurate poll of what game they like to play.

EddieBme
12-30-2012, 01:00 AM
I believe that the regional "team" concept of BB is a good one, and properly funded and marketed would have a fair chance of success.

That said, I can't understand the strategic benefit of creating and introducing an entirely "new" game as part of the concept.

So the question is: Do you think that Bonus Ball would have had greater support within the pool community had they opted to play 8, 9, or 10 ball rather than "bonus ball"?

J

Yes. IMO 8 ball is the most popular game of pool played in leagues, bars, and recreational type facilities.

vpbb123
12-30-2012, 06:43 AM
That is a very interesting question. Here is my thoughts on the matter. I first started off playing eight ball. I owned a cue and I learned how to pot balls, i then started cutting balls. I progressed to my first bank shot and someone showed me how to carom balls into pockets. All the tables that I played on had six pockets and i used the cue ball to pocket balls. I started off playing in league so I learned how to "score" a game. I learned very quickly that the break made you very happy or you felt really frustrated when you broke dry!

The first time someone showed me Snooker, i already had all the fundamentals to play this game as so did I when I first played a rotation game. Same basic skills, different balls, different rules. All though I really liked Snooker, i never played it much because there is no organized amateur league in my city to allow me to participate on a team. I bought a ball set but seldom does it get used. Eight ball is the game of choice around My home city.

Bonus Ball is the same as Snooker. If you understand the basic fundementals of billiards, you can simply take a couple of hours to learn the rules and unlike Snooker, you can use solids and stripes and away you go! Your playing the game the top players in the world are playing in the WPBL. How confusing can it be to watch Johnny Archer line up and bank a purple ball to the corner because he can't shoot the orange ball into his opponents pocket? Watch the game and learn the rules. It's really a fun game to play too. Try that for a few hours and you will see what I'm talking about!

The bottom line here is Bonus Ball is simply a billiards game. It's not like comparing cricket to baseball or like Bandy to Hockey. It's the same as watching eight ball or nine ball except it is a lot more challenging to play. Same tables, same cues and same 2.25 balls and a cue ball. If you don't want to watch professionals performing many difficult shots or actually taking less than 24 seconds to analyze and perform their next shot, in a team environment then you probably won't want to watch this new professional league. Fair ball!

Johnny Archer and Darren Appleton told me it is a great game to play, I decided to believe them. It's not only me that is playing this game! It will continue to be played even if Larry's dream of a profession league crashes. It will have nothing to do with Bonus Ball. It will be that he failed to bring you a good show. With Nathan now focused on this game, his filming ideas and the crew will make your viewing experience the best he can and I can tell you right now, these professionals are playing the game like professionals! It will be worth a look! That's the best we are hoping from any pool player. Give it a serious look!

obsespool
12-30-2012, 10:50 AM
I agree with the op here. I think team concept might be ok, but play 10ball. Actually believe there would be more support for any ot the 3 existing games mentioned. Not a big 8ball fan but that is all the casual bar players know exists......I guess you might pick up that audience with 8 ball. I always enjoy watching 10ball or 9ball.

AtLarge
12-30-2012, 11:21 AM
... Give it a serious look!

Barry -- repeating a question from a few days ago in another thread:

Back when the season was scheduled to start on November 29, the first week of matches was going to be free and ppv charges would start with the 2nd week of matches.

Will it still be free to view the first week's matches?

nathandumoulin
12-30-2012, 11:44 AM
Will it still be free to view the first week's matches?

That's up for debate at this point. A few ideas are being tossed around as alternatives. I'll keep everyone posted once the decision is made.

AtLarge
12-30-2012, 12:54 PM
That's up for debate at this point. A few ideas are being tossed around as alternatives. I'll keep everyone posted once the decision is made.

Thanks for the info.

vpbb123
12-30-2012, 10:53 PM
Sorry at large, I am on the road right now i just got into to Casper, Wyoming! Im driving down my vehicle because this time, im going do everything I can to help Larry and Nathan get this league launched. I gave Larry a great suggestion that is more appealing because of the late start so the rest is up to Larry and Nathan. I believe they will come up with something good! They know how important it is to market this new product. Happy New Year to you!

vpbb123
12-31-2012, 12:40 AM
I agree with the op here. I think team concept might be ok, but play 10ball. Actually believe there would be more support for any ot the 3 existing games mentioned. Not a big 8ball fan but that is all the casual bar players know exists......I guess you might pick up that audience with 8 ball. I always enjoy watching 10ball or 9ball.

I would like to think that ten ball is definitely a better version of rotation than nine ball. I hope the upcoming TAR match is awesome! Im hoping to speak to Justin about getting a ticket to watch it at his studio!

Also, I'm very impressed that Bonus Ball has any votes at all at this point! I'd love to see those numbers after one season! Bonus Ball will grab a market share just like NASCAR grabbed it's market share from Indy and Sports Car racing. The majority of racers drive dirt cars but that does not stop them from supporting a league that markets racing at a much higher level than they can race. Nobody really knows how it will go! Hat's off to Larry Chiborak and to anyone else that has the guts to go against the grain to try and bring pool, that we all on Azbilliards love to a different level. He is a pioneer! It his vision and he will either be known as a visionary or another poor promoter. either way, he is still should hold his head up high for trying.

That goes out to the players as well. They believe in Larry and his concept! I'm really around all these players and not one has ever said, why does Larry not have us play ten ball? That's because they understand his mission, understand how really good this games plays and they are going to stand with him. That does say something! Good luck to everyone involved in all events that are trying to improve billiards! I wish them the best!

I personally have my agenda to get amateur Bonus Ball leagues going! I have some amazing software for league owners to use very shortly that makes it a piece of cake for billiard room operators to house their own leagues! Email me: barry@playbonusball.com

jimmyg
01-20-2013, 08:30 PM
People claiming to be "visionary" are, by nature, an arrogant, stubborn, lot. Many self proclaimed visionaries tend to ignore and ridicule traditional measures of business potential like popular opinion, polls, focus groups, and years of historical facts, while some others embrace them. Only the one's who's ventures succeed are, indeed, visionary. The others? Well, not so much.

Good luck.

Another bump for votes and/or points of view.

J

vpbb123
01-20-2013, 09:34 PM
Visionary people have made this country and our world a better place to live. In this world there are many crooked and malicious people. They have put on tournaments and failed to pay the players and that really is not something to be proud of! Larry paid out 105k to players because of a contractor that has been deceiving him. That is honorable and should be applauded. What's your point Jimmy?

jimmyg
01-20-2013, 09:52 PM
Visionary people have made this country and our world a better place to live. In this world there are many crooked and malicious people. They have put on tournaments and failed to pay the players and that really is not something to be proud of! Larry paid out 105k to players because of a contractor that has been deceiving him. That is honorable and should be applauded. What's your point Jimmy?

Just a general statement about visionaries, and how success and/or failure are the final arbiters, nothing personal directed toward either you, or Larry. Sorry if it sounded that way.

As far a BB is concerned, I think that it's going to be a tough row to hoe.

Again, good luck to all.

J

vpbb123
01-21-2013, 02:17 AM
Larry envisioned a pool game that brought back scoring (like Snooker and straight pool). He envisioned a game that would challenge top players and he got that game! Im going to take The word of Johnny Archer, Scott Frost, Rodney Morris, Darren Applelton, Francisco Bustamante, Stevie Moore and many of the top players in our sport that love this game. Once you embrace and play the game, it will become apparent to you that yes, these pros know what they are talking about! Despite Larry's problems with this corrupt contractor, the game of Bonus Ball will not ever fade away. It simply plays too good. I will remind you, he never invent anything new, he just structured pool to play more challenging for better players. Here in Las Vegas, we are embracing the game. It's simply a fact that this game is very challenging to play and so much fun! That is a great combination!

jimmyg
05-24-2013, 09:41 AM
Thought that a few more comments and votes may be in order....

PS: Remember that of the 16 BB votes, many may be from people deriving, or hoping to derive, their paychecks from it.

J

SCCues
05-24-2013, 11:37 AM
I agree, the regional team aspect is a very good one, but I think the game is the downfall. Would like to see regional team 10-ball of some kind. 10-ball has all the momentum right now, and BB is just a distraction from it.

I agree with you about bonus ball. A totally new game that most people don't understand is going in the wrong direction. Take a game all pool players can relate to, 10 ball for example, and put the promotional energy behind that if you want the majority of the pool community to even understand what's going on.

What ever path is taken don't make the mistake of scheduling on top of the current promoters who are the only ones trying to give the pool players a chance to earn some money. I don't see Bonus Ball lasting like the IPT did so if the few current promoters say the heck with it then what do you have after Bonus Ball runs its course.

James

krupa
05-24-2013, 11:48 AM
Thought that a few more comments and votes may be in order....

PS: Remember that of the 16 BB votes, many may be from people deriving, or hoping to derive, their paychecks from it.

J

I agree, Bonus Ball has been discussed very much at all around here. :rolleyes:

jimmyg
05-24-2013, 09:29 PM
Riddle this:

Multibillion dollar, international, mega-corporations, with unlimited resources utilize focus groups before introducing new consumer products and marketing plans to the public as a way of pretesting their plans. They often, and sensibly, rethink and/or discontinue plans that are met with extremely negative results

I would consider this poll and the other numerous threads as serving the same purpose as several very well selected focus groups. Given that in this poll alone with 139 votes, 89% of the people who voted thought that BB was not the best selection for a new national team concept.

Rhetorical question:
Maybe someone has a rational theory as to why valuable input like this would be totally ignored and not be used as a basis for reconsideration of an apparently poor product choice and marketing plan? I do not.

There is no shame in changing a product design in order to fill the market's wants and needs, in fact it shows intelligence, business savvy, and common sense. All skill sets required to survive a tough business environment.

Still wishing good luck to all.

J

AtLarge
05-24-2013, 09:33 PM
...
Rhetorical question:
Maybe someone has a rational theory as to why valuable input like this would be totally ignored and not be used as a basis for reconsideration of an apparently poor product choice and marketing plan? I do not. ...

Perhaps we are not really part of the ultimate target market.

Pfnatic
05-24-2013, 09:51 PM
I believe that the regional "team" concept of BB is a good one, and properly funded and marketed would have a fair chance of success.

That said, I can't understand the strategic benefit of creating and introducing an entirely "new" game as part of the concept.

So the question is: Do you think that Bonus Ball would have had greater support within the pool community had they opted to play 8, 9, or 10 ball rather than "bonus ball"?

J

Short answer: Yes :smile:

jimmyg
05-24-2013, 09:59 PM
Perhaps we are not really part of the ultimate target market.

Okay, let's go with that and see if that makes business sense.

First of all, "we" here are the perfect representatives of the entire international pool world, to ignore our knowledge based input implies that they believe that they are smarter than the "market", which is never true and defies business logic.

Secondly, we are, in fact, pool's only world "market" regardless of what anyone says or wants to believe....there is no pool market other than we pool players, just as a new baby food company cannot ignore the millions of existing babies in the world who must eat, we pool players cannot be ignored. To anyone other than us, these extremely talented professional pool players, even in their new multicolored hockey jerseys, are, and will remain, complete unknowns.

Truthfully, to me it sounds and looks like the sheer arrogance of amateurs and dreamers flush with some free business start up money, Of course I could be wrong, but that's exactly what it looks like to me.

J

CJ Wiley
05-24-2013, 10:27 PM
I haven't seen BB played, don't know all the rules, so I don't know if I'll like it or not. My initial reaction is I don't think a new game is necessary, but maybe I'll love it, I'll watch some and give it a chance. I'm more in line with some of the ideas CJ Wiley had about player recognition and identification with them as personalities.

Bonus Ball succeeding will be a Dream come true......however, we highly recommend carefully considering the universal rules of $uccess {in sports/games}.

The fact is all games and sports (without players) are close to the same. None of them are very interesting without the personalities and characters. Pool's not the exception, it's the "sample example". Pool has been successful in the past because of TV/Movie Stars like Jackie Gleason, Paul Newman, Tom Cruise, Minnisota Fats, Willie Mosconi, Steve Mizerak, Mike Sigel, Allen Hopkins, etc, etc....the entire group, not one in particular.

No one ever talks about football, basketball, baseball or hockey.......they talk about what some player did, or pitcher, or quarterback, umpire, a fight, a scandal (Tiger and many others}, an exceptional feat, and they know their names and where they went to college - what food they like - what beer they drink, what their strength/weakness is - etc.etc.

Try watching a base ball ONLY or a foot ball ONLY or a golf ball ONLY or a tennis ball ONLY and you'll quickly understand that as a "game" with balls, pool is better game than any other without the players, ironically no attempt has been made to brand a player since we were playing in the early to mid 90s. Pool's the only game/sport that tries to make everyone BUT the players the stars and that's "going over like a lead balloon". :thumbup:

Once the personalities and characters start to pull the "game {train/wagon}," then and only then will the game pull the players too, and there is synergy. The personalities Must Always be developed first....no exceptions in history and it won't start now with pool. I deal with professional marketers and they see it in an instant, but no one in the industry seems to notice. We must allow ourselves to "real eyes" the core issues and address them or the same patterns will continue.

We want to do this in Dallas, however, we need competition......it takes competition to guarantee success in our opinion......it's like being the only lawyer in town, you'll starve, and once another lawyer moves to town you will succeed.....I'm hoping Bonus Ball succeeds, however, they will need competition to succeed at the highest level - this is called the "Synergistic Effect".

'The Game is the Vehicle, the Players are the "Marketing Vehicle Drivers"

jasonlaus
05-24-2013, 11:41 PM
Bonus Ball succeeding will be a Dream come true......however, we highly recommend carefully considering the universal rules of $uccess {in sports/games}.

The fact is all games and sports (without players) are close to the same. None of them are very interesting without the personalities and characters. Pool's not the exception, it's the "sample example". Pool has been successful in the past because of TV/Movie Stars like Jackie Gleason, Paul Newman, Tom Cruise, Minnisota Fats, Willie Mosconi, Steve Mizerak, Mike Sigel, Allen Hopkins, etc, etc....the entire group, not one in particular.

No one ever talks about football, basketball, baseball or hockey.......they talk about what some player did, or pitcher, or quarterback, umpire, a fight, a scandal (Tiger and many others}, an exceptional feat, and they know their names and where they went to college - what food they like - what beer they drink, what their strength/weakness is - etc.etc.

Try watching a base ball ONLY or a foot ball ONLY or a golf ball ONLY or a tennis ball ONLY and you'll quickly understand that as a "game" with balls, pool is better game than any other without the players, ironically no attempt has been made to brand a player since we were playing in the early to mid 90s. Pool's the only game/sport that tries to make everyone BUT the players the stars and that's "going over like a lead balloon". :thumbup:

Once the personalities and characters start to pull the "game {train/wagon}," then and only then will the game pull the players too, and there is synergy. The personalities Must Always be developed first....no exceptions in history and it won't start now with pool. I deal with professional marketers and they see it in an instant, but no one in the industry seems to notice. We must allow ourselves to "real eyes" the core issues and address them or the same patterns will continue.

We want to do this in Dallas, however, we need competition......it takes competition to guarantee success in our opinion......it's like being the only lawyer in town, you'll starve, and once another lawyer moves to town you will succeed.....I'm hoping Bonus Ball succeeds, however, they will need competition to succeed at the highest level - this is called the "Synergistic Effect".

'The Game is the Vehicle, the Players are the "Marketing Vehicle Drivers"

What you need is old school, Earl, Keith, CJ, Efren with his I get lucky, DRAMA, RIVALRY. Bring in Deschaine against Earl and turn the mics all the way up, nobody has to love the other player - I'd rather see them truly despise each other-it works for all other sports. Controversy, bad calls, frozen balls, F-U Earl, I'll use a jump cue if I wanna

Jason<---hates jump cues

jimmyg
06-15-2013, 07:34 AM
May as well rejoin the BB party. :smile:

J

jimmyg
06-15-2013, 09:29 AM
Hint: For anyone still voting for BB, the results are already in......BB gather's the least support in every poll made on the topic. :confused:

What confuses, and actually irritates, me is that the "visionaries" who created BB absolutely refuse to pay attention to what has quickly and obviously already become fact.

Question: Visionary or delusional?

J