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View Full Version : What wrong with pool and how Bonus Ball is bringing it out loud and clear on here!


Scottyboy716
11-27-2012, 12:33 AM
Hello all with respect and disappointment.

Allow me to start by saying this will be a long read and is only meant for me to say some stuff that goes on in my head. I am not looking for responses, negative or supportive, and with that in mind I will not be replying to any responses.

I am an average pool player, a mid level "B" player on my best of days. I do not work in the billiard industry and have no inside perspective.

I am a forum "lurker". I am on here daily, and have been for years just reading. I used to post, but stopped for no real reason other then it wasn't really my thing.

I have learned a lot on here. I have learned ways to behave as well as ways not to behave.

There are ALWAYS posts about whats wrong with pool. Let me help everyone out... WE are whats wrong with pool. By "we", I mean pool players as whole. not people who play pool, but POOL PLAYERS. We all know the difference. *For the record, I must include myself in that "WE".

I try to support PPV streams when feasible, however, sometimes it just isn't. I am more apt to watch when a favorite player is on.

How many of you try to duck PPV costs and watch on some jerk's channel who is mirroring the stream? REALLY? C'Mon!!!! I don't know whats worse, the person not paying for it, or the person allowing other people to watch it for free.

I would never watch a live pool PPV for free that someone is 3rd party broadcasting. That being said, I have been guilty of coming on the forums and checking updates on TAR matches that I didn't buy for whatever reason. And for that, I've always planned on sending Justin some money... but never did. He allowed me to sweat a live match in the TAR studio for no charge! I also planned on sending a thank you then, but never did. The best laid plans... For that matter, I'm sending him some money right now!

And how about all the guys not wanting to help people with their game? I'm all for paying dues, it's part of the curve, and needed, but all the people out there just trying to steal? I play everyone. EVERYONE! and if someone thinks I'm lying, "you've got action!" I walked up to one of the countries top one pocket players about a year and a half ago asking for a game. He had no idea who I was, or how I played. I told him there isn't a spot out there that I could win at. I think we settled on 13-5 for $20.00 a game (It could have been 20-5, and I knew this, but I wanted to play and learn). I told him under the condition he taught me something about the game. (I usually make that stipulation when giving up the nuts and more, so I take something more away then my own observations). He gave me opportunities (on purpose), and easily beat me out of $100.00. To be honest, I don't know if he told me anything or not. All I remember, is him saying that he think's "I'd be a good match for his friend and that we play about the same". I knew his a friend, a local hustler. How about that? I'm looking to learn, willing to pay, and take my lumps, and they just want to rob me! Haha. It happens all the time. Believe me, I'm no chump, and no sucker. I'm a student of the game, willing to pay dues, take my lumps... but wanting to learn on the way.

Now all this Bonus Ball debate. Watch it or don't. Support it or don't. But bash the game and the promoters efforts to no end? Why? You know what really gets me? Why all the posts about how it can sustain itself, or where the money gonna come from, etc. WHO CARES!? And why do they have to explain it to us? What difference does it make. They're doing it and trying it. If it works it works, if it fails it fails. It's not costing any of us anything! Will any of you drop $10 bucks at least once to help support a game (pool) we all love in one way or another?

What if someone came on here, and was vouched for by the administrator and the most respected members and asked everyone to donate $9.95 to go towards along shot, but a chance in helping build a future for our sport. Would you do it?

Another "For the record".... I'm trying to keep this unbiased, and come at it from a level area. I haven't read ALL the posts lately, but know things have gotten out of hand, and people have been offended. It's beyond childish! I can state for a fact, that someone on here, who's post and opinions I've come to enjoy and respect over the years, has downright offended a top pro, who happens to a be friend of mine. (not over Bonus Ball stuff). The player was offended by a post that in my opinion, and based on many other posts from the poster, was harmless. I guess the point I'm trying to make here, is that things can easily be taken out of context when all you see are the words. My girlfriend and i have resorted to stupid smiley faces after every questionable text so that the receiver knows the sender wasn't being a bi**h or an A****le! TAKE A BREATH PEOPLE! realize how easily things can be taken out of context when it's only written in print!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKbAEmvZyKQ

Enough on Bonus Ball... back to what else "WE" all do... How many of US try to help out the people in the bars banging away? No, not everyone. But what about the few who you can see may want to learn, but don't even know there's stuff to learn. Every try to tell them about local pool halls. Local pro's to watch or take lessons from? That there is more then just 8-ball? or for that matter, the real rules of 8-ball? Now I know you can't just walk up to someone and push things on them... but there is a way to do it. I wish someone grabbed me when I was a bar banger and thought I was a great player because I'd made the 8 on the break before. (true story, I really thought it meant I was good). But no, it wasn't until years later when I expanded on my passion on my own. With out the help from the people in the area, who I'd played in the bars that could have point me in the right direction, or even just any direction... but didn't.

I am sorry that this post is this long, and disorganized. I have had enough. WE'RE whats wrong with pool in america. "Parasites", as quoted by a pro. Like it or not, the majority of us here are.

You want pool in America to grow? Do something about it. Help a lesser player. Support a PPV stream. Bring people into your local poolrooms. Pool players are what gives pool a bad name and a tough time surveying. THe game itself is innocent. I for one wish everyone played!

-S

Blue Hog ridr
11-27-2012, 12:53 AM
You want pool in America to grow? Do something about it. Help a lesser player. Support a PPV stream. Bring people into your local poolrooms. Pool players are what gives pool a bad name and a tough time surveying. THe game itself is innocent. I for one wish everyone played!

Lock and Load will be along shortly and take you into his fold.

JCIN
11-27-2012, 01:14 AM
Hello all with respect and disappointment.

Allow me to start by saying this will be a long read and is only meant for me to say some stuff that goes on in my head. I am not looking for responses, negative or supportive, and with that in mind I will not be replying to any responses.

I am an average pool player, a mid level "B" player on my best of days. I do not work in the billiard industry and have no inside perspective.

I am a forum "lurker". I am on here daily, and have been for years just reading. I used to post, but stopped for no real reason other then it wasn't really my thing.

I have learned a lot on here. I have learned ways to behave as well as ways not to behave.

There are ALWAYS posts about whats wrong with pool. Let me help everyone out... WE are whats wrong with pool. By "we", I mean pool players as whole. not people who play pool, but POOL PLAYERS. We all know the difference. *For the record, I must include myself in that "WE".

I try to support PPV streams when feasible, however, sometimes it just isn't. I am more apt to watch when a favorite player is on.

How many of you try to duck PPV costs and watch on some jerk's channel who is mirroring the stream? REALLY? C'Mon!!!! I don't know whats worse, the person not paying for it, or the person allowing other people to watch it for free.

I would never watch a live pool PPV for free that someone is 3rd party broadcasting. That being said, I have been guilty of coming on the forums and checking updates on TAR matches that I didn't buy for whatever reason. And for that, I've always planned on sending Justin some money... but never did. He allowed me to sweat a live match in the TAR studio for no charge! I also planned on sending a thank you then, but never did. The best laid plans... For that matter, I'm sending him some money right now!

And how about all the guys not wanting to help people with their game? I'm all for paying dues, it's part of the curve, and needed, but all the people out there just trying to steal? I play everyone. EVERYONE! and if someone thinks I'm lying, "you've got action!" I walked up to one of the countries top one pocket players about a year and a half ago asking for a game. He had no idea who I was, or how I played. I told him there isn't a spot out there that I could win at. I think we settled on 13-5 for $20.00 a game (It could have been 20-5, and I knew this, but I wanted to play and learn). I told him under the condition he taught me something about the game. (I usually make that stipulation when giving up the nuts and more, so I take something more away then my own observations). He gave me opportunities (on purpose), and easily beat me out of $100.00. To be honest, I don't know if he told me anything or not. All I remember, is him saying that he think's "I'd be a good match for his friend and that we play about the same". I knew his a friend, a local hustler. How about that? I'm looking to learn, willing to pay, and take my lumps, and they just want to rob me! Haha. It happens all the time. Believe me, I'm no chump, and no sucker. I'm a student of the game, willing to pay dues, take my lumps... but wanting to learn on the way.

Now all this Bonus Ball debate. Watch it or don't. Support it or don't. But bash the game and the promoters efforts to no end? Why? You know what really gets me? Why all the posts about how it can sustain itself, or where the money gonna come from, etc. WHO CARES!? And why do they have to explain it to us? What difference does it make. They're doing it and trying it. If it works it works, if it fails it fails. It's not costing any of us anything! Will any of you drop $10 bucks at least once to help support a game (pool) we all love in one way or another?

What if someone came on here, and was vouched for by the administrator and the most respected members and asked everyone to donate $9.95 to go towards along shot, but a chance in helping build a future for our sport. Would you do it?

Another "For the record".... I'm trying to keep this unbiased, and come at it from a level area. I haven't read ALL the posts lately, but know things have gotten out of hand, and people have been offended. It's beyond childish! I can state for a fact, that someone on here, who's post and opinions I've come to enjoy and respect over the years, has downright offended a top pro, who happens to a be friend of mine. (not over Bonus Ball stuff). The player was offended by a post that in my opinion, and based on many other posts from the poster, was harmless. I guess the point I'm trying to make here, is that things can easily be taken out of context when all you see are the words. My girlfriend and i have resorted to stupid smiley faces after every questionable text so that the receiver knows the sender wasn't being a bi**h or an A****le! TAKE A BREATH PEOPLE! realize how easily things can be taken out of context when it's only written in print!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKbAEmvZyKQ

Enough on Bonus Ball... back to what else "WE" all do... How many of US try to help out the people in the bars banging away? No, not everyone. But what about the few who you can see may want to learn, but don't even know there's stuff to learn. Every try to tell them about local pool halls. Local pro's to watch or take lessons from? That there is more then just 8-ball? or for that matter, the real rules of 8-ball? Now I know you can't just walk up to someone and push things on them... but there is a way to do it. I wish someone grabbed me when I was a bar banger and thought I was a great player because I'd made the 8 on the break before. (true story, I really thought it meant I was good). But no, it wasn't until years later when I expanded on my passion on my own. With out the help from the people in the area, who I'd played in the bars that could have point me in the right direction, or even just any direction... but didn't.

I am sorry that this post is this long, and disorganized. I have had enough. WE'RE whats wrong with pool in america. "Parasites", as quoted by a pro. Like it or not, the majority of us here are.

You want pool in America to grow? Do something about it. Help a lesser player. Support a PPV stream. Bring people into your local poolrooms. Pool players are what gives pool a bad name and a tough time surveying. THe game itself is innocent. I for one wish everyone played!

-S

Scottyboy is as good as his word and shipped the jelly. Thank you sir.

Some points in your post I agree with, others not so much but I respect your point of view. For those of us "inside" the industry its easy to get wrapped up in the drama. For me its because I care about what happens and am interested when people try new things. Pool has a long history of big promises and underwhelming follow through that has jaded many people. I am one of those people.

What other people in the industry do DOES have an affect on everyone else.

Hidy Ho
11-27-2012, 01:30 AM
Scottyboy is as good as his word and shipped the jelly. Thank you sir.

Some points in your post I agree with, others not so much but I respect your point of view. For those of us "inside" the industry its easy to get wrapped up in the drama. For me its because I care about what happens and am interested when people try new things. Pool has a long history of big promises and underwhelming follow through that has jaded many people. I am one of those people.

What other people in the industry do DOES have an affect on everyone else.

Hi Jade!!!

Lumocolor
11-27-2012, 01:41 AM
When the whole bonus ball talk started i watched the videos and just thought "meh, why can't they just copy the mosconi cup format and use the games people already know in a multiple team setting that happens more than 3 days a year". I wasn't a hater per say, but i just thought it wouldn't work. Now i say let them have their chance, it's their money to spend and good luck to them.

I think the biggest mistake they (the bonus ball investors) have made is trying to do it in the US, they should have just gone and did it in asia where i think it would have had a better chance, hell korea has 2-3 television channels that show nothing but video game content and tournaments 24/7. It's not 1940 anymore, in 2012 the US is where ideas and money go to die. They could probably have done it in asia for a fraction of what they are spending in the US and might have been able to stick it in front of a billion people.

JCIN
11-27-2012, 01:49 AM
Hi Jade!!!

Send me a half dozen South Wests and restore my faith in mankind.

Frii
11-27-2012, 05:21 AM
I knew this guy that like spoof movies. He would even watch bad spoof movies. I ask him why and he said he was using his money to get what he wanted and when he rented them it sent a signal to Hollywood to make more.

Also I think instructors should come up with a plan if possible to train up to 10 student pool players at a time. So they can set up one table in the center of the main stream mall and be profitable. Using dividers or something or ten small tables 2x4 or 3x3 to get them started.

CreeDo
11-27-2012, 08:44 AM
The part I agree with:
Bonus Ball bashing.

It's weird how it's considered rude to ask someone how much their salary is, but on AZ it's OK to say "I've done some napkin math and I don't see how you can break even, how much do you think you'll pull from PPV? Who's paying for the arena, are the players getting paid while they wait, are they under contract? I heard Jim didn't get paid, why not?" and so on.

Some of the complaints seem valid, but we have no idea really how serious they are from the armchair quarterback position. It seems to me the only guys who should be complaining are those directly affected by it, and they should do their complaints privately rather than sabotage the venture with public dirty laundry.

"you have to know you're gonna get delayed a month, the bathrooms are bare unfinished wood!"
...or maybe some electrician said "I can't make it out until the 18th to finish up."

"The players are trapped in vegas away from their families and paying for hotels and have to hire temporary managers to run their pool rooms back home!"
...or they're crashing at a buddy's, having a blast, and always had a manager.

"They should be doing the same thing, but with eight or ten ball!"
...or, they feel everything that could possibly be tried with those games has already been tried.

"This pro didn't sign up, and I heard this player was going to be part of it but now they're not!"
...ok, implying what, it's a horrible venture and all those other pros who signed on are just suckers?
Maybe it's normal for things to change while a venture is still in the beta stage? Maybe people are just unpredictable and change their minds about various things for various reasons?


The weird part to me is not so much why people think it's their business, but why they even care. Maybe I just lack curiousity, but when I see buzz about a new product, I don't really sit there and agonize over the process and profit margins. I just decide to buy it or not... I don't really care if some dude I don't know on the other side of the country is going broke.


The part I don't agree with:
"Pool players" are the problem.

Pool players are just normal human beings from a variety of backgrounds who happen to like pool. They aren't born naturally more 'nitty' than anyone else. If anything, pool players are MORE inclined to throw away money than the average guy. They pay for table time that will be nothing but a memory tomorrow. They are basically EXPECTED to bet cash while some other guy can golf his whole life without gambling a dime, and nobody has anything bad to say about it. They pay for extra cues they don't use or need. They buy low-res pay per views while football fans see their matches on TV for free.

Maniac
11-27-2012, 09:18 AM
I am a poolplayer living in America (the home of the free). I have never paid for a PPV, nor do I ever plan to. I will sometimes, if I have nothing else to do, watch a free live stream. Pool is not the most exciting sport to watch imo. I will take a YouTube match (I have many on my "favorites" list), open it and watch it on the laptop while in my recliner in the afternoon and guess what? I fall asleep every time, usually before the second game in the match starts. I DO however have the belief that pool streams, free or paid for, are a good thing for the avid poolplayers. There doesn't look as though there will be any other way to get pool coverage/exposure on TV any time soon. The hard work and efforts of people like Justin, Bigtruck, and many others are honorable and good, and they should be commended for the work they put into it. But, that said, as a retiree I just cannot see myself being on a fixed income and paying for something that I can "take or leave". I simply do not need to watch pool. I DO however need to PLAY pool. That said, I must state here that my contributions to pool are in the areas of buying many billiard products (and I mean MANY), from cues to cases to every other gadget that comes out on the market (I have been called the "gadget-guy" by some of my teammates). I shoot in local/semi-local leagues four times a week, so I contribute to the halls through my buying food/drink, table time, etc. I play in an ocassional local tournament. I teach lesser skilled players who WANT to be taught. I have closed down my regular poolhall at 2:00 am teaching people who want to put in the time to learn. I give them instruction at no cost on my own time, and relish the opportunity to do so.

What I'm trying to say to the OP is that while there are some "players" that do not seem to contribute to the game, sometimes the contributions are obscure and uneasy to see from another person's viewpoint. That said, there will always be "givers" and "takers" in all walks of life. That's just the way it is. If you choose to be a "giver", then do so with no reservations and let the chips fall where they may, and never look back.

Maniac (respectfully declines to discuss Bonus Ball)

dorabelle
11-27-2012, 09:32 AM
The part I agree with:
Bonus Ball bashing.

It's weird how it's considered rude to ask someone how much their salary is, but on AZ it's OK to say "I've done some napkin math and I don't see how you can break even, how much do you think you'll pull from PPV? Who's paying for the arena, are the players getting paid while they wait, are they under contract? I heard Jim didn't get paid, why not?" and so on.

Some of the complaints seem valid, but we have no idea really how serious they are from the armchair quarterback position. It seems to me the only guys who should be complaining are those directly affected by it, and they should do their complaints privately rather than sabotage the venture with public dirty laundry.

"you have to know you're gonna get delayed a month, the bathrooms are bare unfinished wood!"
...or maybe some electrician said "I can't make it out until the 18th to finish up."

"The players are trapped in vegas away from their families and paying for hotels and have to hire temporary managers to run their pool rooms back home!"
...or they're crashing at a buddy's, having a blast, and always had a manager.

"They should be doing the same thing, but with eight or ten ball!"
...or, they feel everything that could possibly be tried with those games has already been tried.

"This pro didn't sign up, and I heard this player was going to be part of it but now they're not!"
...ok, implying what, it's a horrible venture and all those other pros who signed on are just suckers?
Maybe it's normal for things to change while a venture is still in the beta stage? Maybe people are just unpredictable and change their minds about various things for various reasons?


The weird part to me is not so much why people think it's their business, but why they even care. Maybe I just lack curiousity, but when I see buzz about a new product, I don't really sit there and agonize over the process and profit margins. I just decide to buy it or not... I don't really care if some dude I don't know on the other side of the country is going broke.


The part I don't agree with:
"Pool players" are the problem.

Pool players are just normal human beings from a variety of backgrounds who happen to like pool. They aren't born naturally more 'nitty' than anyone else. If anything, pool players are MORE inclined to throw away money than the average guy. They pay for table time that will be nothing but a memory tomorrow. They are basically EXPECTED to bet cash while some other guy can golf his whole life without gambling a dime, and nobody has anything bad to say about it. They pay for extra cues they don't use or need. They buy low-res pay per views while football fans see their matches on TV for free.

Dude it's not complaining. It's counting. It's realism and curiosity. Sorry you view it as complaining.
I'll save my complaining for if and when other events are negatively affected by BB and it folds in the end.

KoolKat9Lives
11-27-2012, 09:33 AM
I think the biggest mistake they (the bonus ball investors) have made is trying to do it in the US, they should have just gone and did it in asia where i think it would have had a better chance, hell korea has 2-3 television channels that show nothing but video game content and tournaments 24/7. It's not 1940 anymore, in 2012 the US is where ideas and money go to die. They could probably have done it in asia for a fraction of what they are spending in the US and might have been able to stick it in front of a billion people.

How do you know they are not going to air in Asia and other markets? How tough is it have commentary in the airing country's native tongue?

justadub
11-27-2012, 10:09 AM
My one "complaint" for Bonus Ball is intended as a constructive criticsm....

Public Relations. It hasn't been handled well. And thats a shame. The folks behind this project need to have one voice, and one message. Information flow needs to be managed properly. No one involved should be allowed to speak publicly beyond generalizations....an example of how this works successfully is how the New England Patriots are run. No specific information is released that the management doesn't want released, and when a statement is made, it is carefully crafted to reflect positively on the organization.

Currently there are several different people with varying degrees of association with Bonus Ball, making statements. Statements about the players, about the delays, about lots of things. It's not controlled. And it should be. It casts a poor light on how things are being run, and that is a shame, because it doesn't have to be that way.

These folks are going to need good impressions in order to help make their product successful. Any kind of unneccessary poor public relations detracts from the goal.

(This situation is also true about how the ABP is/was run.)

Again, I hope the product succeeds. I also hope the folks running things get their collective "stuff" together.

JAM
11-27-2012, 10:11 AM
My one "complaint" for Bonus Ball is intended as a constructive criticsm....

Public Relations. It hasn't been handled well. And thats a shame. The folks behind this project need to have one voice, and one message. Information flow needs to be managed properly. No one involved should be allowed to speak publicly beyond generalizations....an example of how this works successfully is how the New England Patriots are run. No specific information is released that the management doesn't want released, and when a statement is made, it is carefully crafted to reflect positively on the organization.

Currently there are several different people with varying degrees of association with Bonus Ball, making statements. Statements about the players, about the delays, about lots of things. It's not controlled. And it should be. It casts a poor light on how things are being run, and that is a shame, because it doesn't have to be that way.

These folks are going to need good impressions in order to help make their product successful. Any kind of unneccessary poor public relations detracts from the goal.

(This situation is also true about how the ABP is/was run.)

Again, I hope the product succeeds. I also hope the folks running things get their collective "stuff" together.

Well said!

Roger Long
11-27-2012, 10:32 AM
Currently there are several different people with varying degrees of association with Bonus Ball, making statements. Statements about the players, about the delays, about lots of things. It's not controlled. And it should be. It casts a poor light on how things are being run, and that is a shame, because it doesn't have to be that way.

This is true, justadub. But there are also several different people with no association with, and no personal knowledge of, Bonus Ball who are making statements about the players, about the delays, and about a lot of things.

I would think that if those with "varying degrees of association with Bonus Ball" were putting out false information, then those at the top would quickly come down on them.

Roger

JCIN
11-27-2012, 10:32 AM
The part I agree with:
Bonus Ball bashing.

It's weird how it's considered rude to ask someone how much their salary is, but on AZ it's OK to say "I've done some napkin math and I don't see how you can break even, how much do you think you'll pull from PPV? Who's paying for the arena, are the players getting paid while they wait, are they under contract? I heard Jim didn't get paid, why not?" and so on.



After the IPT, the UPA Phoenix event and the Barry Berhman US Open Payment Plan fiascos along with several others in pro pool over the last few years is it so hard to figure out why people might be curious exactly how the newest super plan is supposed to work ?

Everyone claims the players getting paid is the number one priority for a promoter but when anyone asks some questions they are an asshole and should just shut up and hope for the best. Makes total sense and actually if it was any different it wouldnt be pool.

Hector3cushion
11-27-2012, 10:36 AM
interesting comments. like others agree with some disagree with others.

peteypooldude
11-27-2012, 10:37 AM
The title of this thread says it all.
When I First seen Pangits thread I didn't go on it because he is a hit and run poster. After reading some of it, I got a sick feeling. It amazes me that people will try and discredit their own sport. Someone's trying to improve and promote our sport and the pool community(who it's not costing a penny) try's to stomp it out before it gets off the ground. Are they concerned about pool? Evidently not. It's not about curiosity , it's about not wanting to see someone triumph in a world of envy. Maybe it's not envy but when you look at how it's presented it looks just like it. You could tell a story of envy and spite and it would read the same way. Some are just posting with their mood overtaking their personality others mean it just as it reads. It's unprovoked assault on BB

JCIN
11-27-2012, 10:45 AM
It's unprovoked assault on BB

Little dramatic there dont you think?

I'm curious if you could quote some of the posts you characterize as an "assault". I can't seem to figure out where the line is on that so I'm looking for some clue on how people reach that conclusion.

I am dead serious by the way. Direct quotes not "Well so and so said a mean thing..."

This is whole thing is like a direct replay of what happened leading up to Galveston.

peteypooldude
11-27-2012, 10:59 AM
Little dramatic there dont you think?

I'm curious if you could quote some of the posts you characterize as an "assault". I can't seem to figure out where the line is on that so I'm looking for some clue on how people reach that conclusion.

I am dead serious by the way. Direct quotes not "Well so and so said a mean thing..."

This is whole thing is like a direct replay of what happened leading up to Galveston.

This is something I should have put in my post. When I seen your name where you posted I thought about it. You are the very one I was not referring to though it may have looked that way. It's the ones who have no investment or put forth no risk in the sport other than throwing entry fees in tournaments they can't win. I very much appreciate and respect your contributions

justadub
11-27-2012, 11:02 AM
This is true, justadub. But there are also several different people with no association with, and no personal knowledge of, Bonus Ball who are making statements about the players, about the delays, and about a lot of things.

I would think that if those with "varying degrees of association with Bonus Ball" were putting out false information, then those at the top would quickly come down on them.

Roger

All true, Roger. Do remember, this is an open forum, and people will say just about anything. There is absolutely no way to control what those folks will post here.

However, the top management (Larry, I believe) could and should control the people he employs, and everyone on the payroll should be instructed how to comment publicly. It is done all the time in the business world (the company I work for has had media policies for generations, and that has been amended to account for social media, too.) and thus you have one constant message.

For instance, none of us needed to know specifics about the delay, or the players being in Vegas, or any of that. If a proactive announcement was made, something to the effect of "we have run into an unavoidable situation in regards to completing the arena, which requires that we back up our launch date for xxx number of weeks", that sets the tone. Would that stop the craziness here, no, but it would be a consistent message.

Instead we get people talking about 800k on cameras, we get a shot across the bow to Mark Griffin, we get lots of banter about what the players are doing right now, and a bunch of other stuff that the Bonus Ball company doesnt need attributed to them. Because of this stuff IS attributed to Bonus Ball now. Cuz the employees are saying so...

dorabelle
11-27-2012, 11:08 AM
Take 10 mil and split it up between 100 of the top players and call it a day.

Ghosst
11-27-2012, 11:16 AM
...but when anyone asks some questions they are an asshole and should just shut up and hope for the best.

Thanks for succinctly wrapping that up. You should seriously be the PR rep for Bonus Ball because it's the exact impression I've received from their staff so far without having to wade through 17 pages.

JCIN
11-27-2012, 11:17 AM
This something I should have put in my post. When I seen your name where you posted I thought about it. You are the very one I was not referring to though may have looked that way. It's the ones who have no investment or put forth no risk in the sport other than throwing entry fees in tournaments they can't win. I very much appreciate and respect your contributions

I appreciate that and thank you.

I can get a little touchy sometimes.

I think there is a line between legitimate interest or curiosity and maliciously trying to hurt something by casting unfounded aspersions. So far I think its been pretty clean overall but several people have posted in various threads they think otherwise so I'm genuinely curious where others think that line is.

Also the fact that people are curious is an opportunity for BB to make a sale and generate more interest through productive interaction. It cuts both ways though. Its also an opportunity to step on your crank if you do it wrong.

lfigueroa
11-27-2012, 11:19 AM
Hello all with respect and disappointment.

Allow me to start by saying this will be a long read and is only meant for me to say some stuff that goes on in my head. I am not looking for responses, negative or supportive, and with that in mind I will not be replying to any responses.

I am an average pool player, a mid level "B" player on my best of days. I do not work in the billiard industry and have no inside perspective.

I am a forum "lurker". I am on here daily, and have been for years just reading. I used to post, but stopped for no real reason other then it wasn't really my thing.

I have learned a lot on here. I have learned ways to behave as well as ways not to behave.

There are ALWAYS posts about whats wrong with pool. Let me help everyone out... WE are whats wrong with pool. By "we", I mean pool players as whole. not people who play pool, but POOL PLAYERS. We all know the difference. *For the record, I must include myself in that "WE".

I try to support PPV streams when feasible, however, sometimes it just isn't. I am more apt to watch when a favorite player is on.

How many of you try to duck PPV costs and watch on some jerk's channel who is mirroring the stream? REALLY? C'Mon!!!! I don't know whats worse, the person not paying for it, or the person allowing other people to watch it for free.

I would never watch a live pool PPV for free that someone is 3rd party broadcasting. That being said, I have been guilty of coming on the forums and checking updates on TAR matches that I didn't buy for whatever reason. And for that, I've always planned on sending Justin some money... but never did. He allowed me to sweat a live match in the TAR studio for no charge! I also planned on sending a thank you then, but never did. The best laid plans... For that matter, I'm sending him some money right now!

And how about all the guys not wanting to help people with their game? I'm all for paying dues, it's part of the curve, and needed, but all the people out there just trying to steal? I play everyone. EVERYONE! and if someone thinks I'm lying, "you've got action!" I walked up to one of the countries top one pocket players about a year and a half ago asking for a game. He had no idea who I was, or how I played. I told him there isn't a spot out there that I could win at. I think we settled on 13-5 for $20.00 a game (It could have been 20-5, and I knew this, but I wanted to play and learn). I told him under the condition he taught me something about the game. (I usually make that stipulation when giving up the nuts and more, so I take something more away then my own observations). He gave me opportunities (on purpose), and easily beat me out of $100.00. To be honest, I don't know if he told me anything or not. All I remember, is him saying that he think's "I'd be a good match for his friend and that we play about the same". I knew his a friend, a local hustler. How about that? I'm looking to learn, willing to pay, and take my lumps, and they just want to rob me! Haha. It happens all the time. Believe me, I'm no chump, and no sucker. I'm a student of the game, willing to pay dues, take my lumps... but wanting to learn on the way.

Now all this Bonus Ball debate. Watch it or don't. Support it or don't. But bash the game and the promoters efforts to no end? Why? You know what really gets me? Why all the posts about how it can sustain itself, or where the money gonna come from, etc. WHO CARES!? And why do they have to explain it to us? What difference does it make. They're doing it and trying it. If it works it works, if it fails it fails. It's not costing any of us anything! Will any of you drop $10 bucks at least once to help support a game (pool) we all love in one way or another?

What if someone came on here, and was vouched for by the administrator and the most respected members and asked everyone to donate $9.95 to go towards along shot, but a chance in helping build a future for our sport. Would you do it?

Another "For the record".... I'm trying to keep this unbiased, and come at it from a level area. I haven't read ALL the posts lately, but know things have gotten out of hand, and people have been offended. It's beyond childish! I can state for a fact, that someone on here, who's post and opinions I've come to enjoy and respect over the years, has downright offended a top pro, who happens to a be friend of mine. (not over Bonus Ball stuff). The player was offended by a post that in my opinion, and based on many other posts from the poster, was harmless. I guess the point I'm trying to make here, is that things can easily be taken out of context when all you see are the words. My girlfriend and i have resorted to stupid smiley faces after every questionable text so that the receiver knows the sender wasn't being a bi**h or an A****le! TAKE A BREATH PEOPLE! realize how easily things can be taken out of context when it's only written in print!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKbAEmvZyKQ

Enough on Bonus Ball... back to what else "WE" all do... How many of US try to help out the people in the bars banging away? No, not everyone. But what about the few who you can see may want to learn, but don't even know there's stuff to learn. Every try to tell them about local pool halls. Local pro's to watch or take lessons from? That there is more then just 8-ball? or for that matter, the real rules of 8-ball? Now I know you can't just walk up to someone and push things on them... but there is a way to do it. I wish someone grabbed me when I was a bar banger and thought I was a great player because I'd made the 8 on the break before. (true story, I really thought it meant I was good). But no, it wasn't until years later when I expanded on my passion on my own. With out the help from the people in the area, who I'd played in the bars that could have point me in the right direction, or even just any direction... but didn't.

I am sorry that this post is this long, and disorganized. I have had enough. WE'RE whats wrong with pool in america. "Parasites", as quoted by a pro. Like it or not, the majority of us here are.

You want pool in America to grow? Do something about it. Help a lesser player. Support a PPV stream. Bring people into your local poolrooms. Pool players are what gives pool a bad name and a tough time surveying. THe game itself is innocent. I for one wish everyone played!

-S


There's nothing wrong with pool. And personally, I'd guess that most here support the game in a myriad of ways.

BTW, this is a *discussion* forum. Running in here, spray painting your protest on a wall, and then running away is not cool.

Lou Figueroa

lfigueroa
11-27-2012, 11:32 AM
My one "complaint" for Bonus Ball is intended as a constructive criticsm....

Public Relations. It hasn't been handled well. And thats a shame. The folks behind this project need to have one voice, and one message. Information flow needs to be managed properly. No one involved should be allowed to speak publicly beyond generalizations....an example of how this works successfully is how the New England Patriots are run. No specific information is released that the management doesn't want released, and when a statement is made, it is carefully crafted to reflect positively on the organization.

Currently there are several different people with varying degrees of association with Bonus Ball, making statements. Statements about the players, about the delays, about lots of things. It's not controlled. And it should be. It casts a poor light on how things are being run, and that is a shame, because it doesn't have to be that way.

These folks are going to need good impressions in order to help make their product successful. Any kind of unneccessary poor public relations detracts from the goal.

(This situation is also true about how the ABP is/was run.)

Again, I hope the product succeeds. I also hope the folks running things get their collective "stuff" together.


Dub, you make a good point about speaking with one voice. The part I disagree with is not talking beyond generalizations. An audience needs to be provided specifics and, if those aren't available, a reasonable explanation for why they're not. If there is one solid truism in PR it is that in the absence of information, rumor, speculation, and innuendo will fill the vacuum. IOW, if you're not telling your story someone else will do it for you.

Lou Figueroa

JAM
11-27-2012, 11:39 AM
Dub, you make a good point about speaking with one voice. The part I disagree with is not talking beyond generalizations. An audience needs to be provided specifics and, if those aren't available, a reasonable explanation for why they're not. If there is one solid truism in PR it is that in the absence of information, rumor, speculation, and innuendo will fill the vacuum. IOW, if you're not telling your story someone else will do it for you.

Lou Figueroa

AzBilliards really does need to include a Like button.

justadub
11-27-2012, 11:47 AM
Dub, you make a good point about speaking with one voice. The part I disagree with is not talking beyond generalizations. An audience needs to be provided specifics and, if those aren't available, a reasonable explanation for why they're not. If there is one solid truism in PR it is that in the absence of information, rumor, speculation, and innuendo will fill the vacuum. IOW, if you're not telling your story someone else will do it for you.

Lou Figueroa

Very true, I agree completely.

I should have included something to that effect earlier. Having a Public Relations person would certainly address that, and help to contain the rumor mongering. I wasn't suggesting "no information", just controlled information.

Neil
11-27-2012, 11:51 AM
Here's the way I see it...a lot of people say pool needs to be "fixed". I'm not so sure about that, but the pros do need a way to make a living at the game, not just the top 5 on the planet or so. What is going on, isn't working to well towards that goal. So, something different needs to be done.

BB is definitely something different. And huge attaboys to those "running it" for at least trying something. Will it work out for the pros? I don't have a clue. Hopefully, it will. Sure, lots of "new" things didn't work out so well in the past. At least people tried. As long as people keep trying, maybe eventually someone will come up with something that does work. Maybe BB is that thing?? Only time will tell. If it fails, then others can have something else to look at that didn't work, and why it didn't work, so they can then come up with something else without making the same mistakes as those before them.

Is BB going to be the instant salvation for pool? No. No one said it would. But, given time, who knows? For now, they have my respect for at least trying something, and willing to back it up with their own $$.

Lumocolor
11-27-2012, 03:07 PM
How do you know they are not going to air in Asia and other markets? How tough is it have commentary in the airing country's native tongue?

And what makes you believe that anyone in asia gives a crap about any of the american players on any of the BB teams?

Just like Justin always says, he could get the best asians in a TAR broadcast but nobody in the US would give a shit or pay to watch.

They could have tried it out in a larger market at a fraction of the cost and a fraction of the hassle they seem to be getting from the vegas authorities and if it had any kind of success there, then they could have tried it in the US. But then we'd probably have all the bashers whining to get an explanation as to why it wasn't done in the US in the first place...lol

But opinions are like Aholes and we all have one.

KoolKat9Lives
11-27-2012, 03:29 PM
And what makes you believe that anyone in asia gives a crap about any of the american players on any of the BB teams?

Just like Justin always says, he could get the best asians in a TAR broadcast but nobody in the US would give a shit or pay to watch.

They could have tried it out in a larger market at a fraction of the cost and a fraction of the hassle they seem to be getting from the vegas authorities and if it had any kind of success there, then they could have tried it in the US. But then we'd probably have all the bashers whining to get an explanation as to why it wasn't done in the US in the first place...lol

But opinions are like Aholes and we all have one.


It's not just American players in BB. You know that. Additionally, I, as a pool enthusiast consumer, will enjoy following BB players from different countries, as WILL others in other countries. There's world class players on this 36 player league. Lastly, IMO, you are intimating that they are surely doing it wrong, and yet, do you really know what markets they plan to tap? It just seems you're blasting away when "üs masses" are in the dark on their business model.

I can take your point with some credit that they could have possibly done it less expensively, but with all due respect, I think some of your points are pre-mature - unknowing & strong and a bit short sighted. We just don't know (yet).

KoolKat9Lives
11-27-2012, 03:38 PM
Here's the way I see it...a lot of people say pool needs to be "fixed". I'm not so sure about that, but the pros do need a way to make a living at the game, not just the top 5 on the planet or so. What is going on, isn't working to well towards that goal. So, something different needs to be done.

BB is definitely something different. And huge attaboys to those "running it" for at least trying something. Will it work out for the pros? I don't have a clue. Hopefully, it will. Sure, lots of "new" things didn't work out so well in the past. At least people tried. As long as people keep trying, maybe eventually someone will come up with something that does work. Maybe BB is that thing?? Only time will tell. If it fails, then others can have something else to look at that didn't work, and why it didn't work, so they can then come up with something else without making the same mistakes as those before them.

Is BB going to be the instant salvation for pool? No. No one said it would. But, given time, who knows? For now, they have my respect for at least trying something, and willing to back it up with their own $$.

Well said Neil. Let them roll the dice. There's a reason why 36 of some of the world's best have signed on. One concern I have is that BB takes away from other events and... I think they are trying to be empathetic to that.

Anyway you look at it, this will be impacting and write another chapter in this crazy f'g industry.

RobertaAgnor
11-27-2012, 04:15 PM
Exactly, I can't help but think there's much about this we don't know because these guys wouldn't have signed on otherwise. I've been hearing about BB for over a year now & I admit I understood nothing about it at first but I'm now very intrigued by it & have greatly enjoyed the matches I've watched online but I do understand it's not everyone's taste.

They've already stated that any player can miss a game as long as there's an alternate to fill in. I think that's very fair because, after all, the player did sign on for the full season.

I'm just taking the stance of wait & see but I think it's going to be pretty exciting to see the potential changes this might bring.

Well said Neil. Let them roll the dice. There's a reason why 36 of some of the world's best have signed on. One concern I have is that BB takes away from other events and... I think they are trying to be empathetic to that.

Anyway you look at it, this will be impacting and write another chapter in this crazy f'g industry.

center pocket
11-27-2012, 04:37 PM
To the OP, great thread and you hit the nail on the head. Just in the last year I have been trying to purchase more TAR matches in order to contribute.

I am stationed in Korea right now and we are trying to get a local pool league started. In the last week I designed the following website for the league and I have spent about 15 hours on making it. I bring this up because this is my most current contribution to pool and the pool players in our area.

www.anjungripoolleague.com
or google anjungri pool league