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Pidge
11-28-2012, 01:23 AM
I've always banked and kicked using no systems, just experience and judgement. Lately though my judgement has been WAY off. I always kick at a ball to either push it safe, or to pocket it and never to just make contact with the OB. But shots that I'd kick at and make 90% of the time, I'm missing by 3/4 of a diamond.

Its nothing to do with conditions of rails I don't think. None of the tables at my local pool hall have had new cusions and my home table has had the same rails for 8 months.

So I'm looking for you guys to point me in the direction of some systems for banks and kicks. All contributions are welcome, and if there is a kicking system that makes it easier to adjust from just hitting centre OB to being able to hit it where you want I'd more than appreciate it.

Regards.

thekaiserman
11-28-2012, 05:36 AM
Try this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gbjl_8wtcS8

pt109
11-28-2012, 06:35 AM
A while back, Bob Jewitt cautioned that systems are a 'GUIDE'......

A Gold Crown banks longer than a Diamond or a Kimsteel, humidity or
temperature changes how a table plays....and the condition of the rubber
varies on almost every table.

So the best way to get good at banks, is to do a lot of banking.

ChrisBanks
11-28-2012, 06:45 AM
How does one become good at painting? He becomes an artist.

And how does one become good at math? He becomes a mathematician.

And how does one become good at fixing teeth? He becomes a dentist.

And if the dentist gives the common man advice on how to pull a tooth, will the common man advance in the skill of teeth pulling?

duckie
11-28-2012, 06:57 AM
You must practice anything to be good at it. You can call yourself an artist, but still suck a painting. To be good reqiures structured practice and the acceptance that it's gonna take time.

What I do is put one OB on the table in start kicking at it. I use the methods below for my kicking practices.

http://www.azbilliards.com/jackkoehler/

Btw, last night the only reason I won some matches in the the tourney was I can bank and kick. Not giving up BIW by being able to kick really plays on someone that likes to play safeties on you. Several players tried that on me, only to realize I can kick. I had to go 3 rails first one time.

Whats better is once you get the feel for kicks, you'll start from just wanting to hit the ball to not only hitting the ball but also to being able to hit it accurately enough to play a safe back as well.

But it takes time and structed practice. What I can do did not happen over night.

CreeDo
11-28-2012, 08:16 AM
Systems are nice to fall back on when everything else is screwing up for some reason.

The system I use (sorry, don't have a link) is a pretty basic mirror system. We all know that mirror systems generally don't work if you just hit a firm center ball... the bank will shorten up every time.

What I do is force the system to work anyway by adding a touch of low outside to my banks, widening the angle to compensate for "rail bite". You must hit at a low enough speed (a little over lag speed) that the english takes. Then you can get the ball to move predictably from, e.g. the third diamond on one rail, to the 1.5 diamond on the other rail, to the hole.

As angles grow wider and wider, you'll need less and less low outside. But you keep the speed the same every time unless you absolutely have to change it for position. So that's where feel and experience come in.

On some tables you can make a mirror system take with speed alone, just by hitting the bank soft. But that option is best in 8 ball or 1 pocket where you want to leave the ball hanging. Not so good in rotation games. And it won't work on every table.

Kicks use the same principle, a touch of high running english to widen the angle. But you need very little, sometimes follow alone is enough, depending on how wide the angle is. A good test for your table is to hang the cue ball in the corner, object ball in an opposite corner on the same long rail. Kick just before the side to sink that object ball. Did you need any running english or not? On most gold crowns you do. That small amount of running english is kind of a baseline you can use to make mirror angle kicks work.

ENGLISH!
11-28-2012, 08:39 AM
I would be more concerned with why I am all of a sudden missing by 3/4 of a diamond in my own 'system'. I think that might be something to figure out & fix before moving on to another system.

Are you all of a sudden putting running english on the CB where maybe before you had a bit of holding english. Something has to have caused the 3/4 diamond differential.

Good Luck with it.

Regards,

Tramp Steamer
11-28-2012, 08:40 AM
I'm like you, Pidge, I don't use a system but depend on what I call "Intuitive Banking". Never the less, I think that knowing a particular system for banks could certainly be of benefit.
I've watched Danny Harriman, who is arguably one of the best bank shot makers in the word, perform shots where he would reinforce his recollection of a particular shot by applying a system to it (mentally), or validating it if you will. Seemingly this would enhance his expectations of making the shot.
In my own case, however, I am far too lazy to learn one, I'm afraid. :smile:

bbb
11-28-2012, 08:53 AM
heres a link to a search on kicking
http://forums.azbilliards.com/search.php?searchid=9714361
freddy the beards books and dvd on banking give you a system about english adjustments and everything you need to know about banking
heres a link to the book (scroll down) and to the left you will a link to the dvds
http://bankingwiththebeard.com/?cat=4

Aaron_S
11-28-2012, 09:00 AM
Some kicks and banks I can just "see", and that seems to change not just from shot to shot, but from day to day. It seems that I am less likely to "see" them when I am under duress. For these shots/situations, I normally rely on the double-the-distance (mirror) system for single-rail stuff. For multi-rail shots, I often just use the spot on the wall system to get a baseline and adjust from there.

Kicking is a strange thing, though. I can usually get the correct side of the ball with my systems, but when it comes to kicking balls into the pocket, I usually do that best by feel. It seems like there is a groove that I fall into on certain kicks, where I can just feel the shot and know how to hit the ball square in the face - from there I adjust longer or shorter to pocket the ball, and I make a surprising number of them that way. Conversely, I miss a high number of kicking-to-pocket shots when I rely solely on a system.

Aaron

Patrick Johnson
11-28-2012, 09:01 AM
Banking/kicking doesn't have to be done all one way or the other - systems involve feel to adjust for conditions and feel players use systems as references/estimates.

I suggest starting with the simplest one-rail system - mirror/equal angles - and try to integrate it with the feel you've already developed.

pj
chgo

Houstoer
11-28-2012, 09:27 AM
Also make sure you have inadvertently changed your alignment of your body and or eyes.

Pidge
11-28-2012, 09:56 AM
Thanks for all the replies.

I always kick at shots with running english where I can, and I've have a new tip put on recently. More than likely the tip doesn't play the way I'm used to, its just being made more obvious when kicking at a ball. Noticeably the tip doesn't hit as firm as I'm used to and it may just be a case of the speed. Also most of my table time has been on a snooker table the past few weeks and it could be just lack of table time.

Either way I think its rediculous I've gone this long without reading, in any depth, about some kind of system. Some of the links have been great and allow you to kick at a ghost ball with a little amendment to the systems. So back to the drawing board I think!

scottjen26
11-28-2012, 10:11 AM
Check out my articles on kicking at poolstudent.com, scroll down on the right and look for the Instruction link. I tried to cover all of the major 1 and 2 rail systems, as well as a lot of explanation about using the diamonds to aim, affects of english, etc.

Like you, I like to kick with running english when possible, offers the most forgiveness in my opinion since the ball is already spinning when hitting the rail and the difference between 1/2 tip and 1 tip is not significant enough to miss a kick usually. Whereas hitting with slight inside or outside when aiming to hit the ball center is usually bad. But as with everything, you need to know how to adjust differently is using slow speed, firm speed, and/or english.

And agree that I think of all systems - kicking, banking, aiming, etc. - as great guidelines and a great way to build up your own intuition, but nothing will replace experience and being able to adjust to unique conditions or angles at one extreme or another where the systems may fall apart.

Scott

Patrick Johnson
11-28-2012, 10:19 AM
I like to kick with running english when possible, offers the most forgiveness in my opinion since the ball is already spinning when hitting the rail and the difference between 1/2 tip and 1 tip is not significant enough to miss a kick usually. Whereas hitting with slight inside or outside when aiming to hit the ball center is usually bad.
I think being slightly off while adding spin changes the rebound angle as much as being slightly off when trying to hit centerball - maybe somebody who has tested it carefully will let us know.

pj
chgo

Banks
11-28-2012, 10:55 AM
Lately though my judgement has been WAY off. I always kick at a ball to either push it safe, or to pocket it and never to just make contact with the OB. But shots that I'd kick at and make 90% of the time, I'm missing by 3/4 of a diamond.

The first step in getting help is admitting that you have a problem.

A while back, Bob Jewitt cautioned that systems are a 'GUIDE'......

A Gold Crown banks longer than a Diamond or a Kimsteel, humidity or
temperature changes how a table plays....and the condition of the rubber
varies on almost every table.

So the best way to get good at banks, is to do a lot of banking.

What he said.

I always kick at shots with running english where I can, and I've have a new tip put on recently.

Alarm bells go off for me on this one. I use a little top on Diamonds because they rebound short, center on most everything else if I can.

Like you, I like to kick with running english when possible, offers the most forgiveness in my opinion since the ball is already spinning when hitting the rail and the difference between 1/2 tip and 1 tip is not significant enough to miss a kick usually. Whereas hitting with slight inside or outside when aiming to hit the ball center is usually bad. But as with everything, you need to know how to adjust differently is using slow speed, firm speed, and/or english.

Side = not good. Draw = ok. Top = not so much. Center = happy time.

I think center offers way more forgiveness. Top can do some funny things, especially on the wider angles.

The trick to kicking or banking is to minimize the variables. Kill the angle and stay away from english that'll funny-up the rebound. Unless the kick is relatively easy to hit, I usually go with center and a solid or hard hit.

dr_dave
11-29-2012, 06:34 AM
I'm looking for you guys to point me in the direction of some systems for banks and kicks. All contributions are welcome, and if there is a kicking system that makes it easier to adjust from just hitting centre OB to being able to hit it where you want I'd more than appreciate it.The most useful and commonly used kicking and banking systems are described and demonstrated in detail here:
bank and kick shot aiming systems (AKA "diamond systems) (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html)

Although, to use these systems effectively, one must also be aware of various important effects and know how to adjust for them when appropriate. These effects are described here:
bank and kick effects resource page (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html#effects)

Good luck,
Dave

scottjen26
11-29-2012, 02:50 PM
Based on experience, I disagree with the comments on center ball vs. english. If I use say 1 tip of 10:30 english to hit a certain spot, and instead hit at 11, or 10, or use 1.25 tips, etc., the variation is very minor. That's because the rail, assuming a relatively normal angle, would "add" running english to the shot anyway. When the ball goes into the rail with the english already there, it will tend to add or subtract as needed and sort of "smooth out" the amount of english. That's why when playing 3 cushion using running english and a 1/2 ball hit off the first object ball is the most forgiving shot, you really have a small range of values for both that end up at the same place on the third/fourth rail.

I'm not saying I won't kick using center ball, I certainly do. And as another poster said, using top/draw requires more judgement and feel as the reactions can vary from table to table and even rail to rail potentially and very sensitive to speed and entry angle. It's just that if I kick 1 rail at a ball, I know numerous systems using running english, and I prefer them over the dead ball or center ball systems, I have more leeway with the hit and speed where I can still hit the ball.

I'm not sure if there is any physics to back this up, and maybe I'm just crazy. But as an example, when I kick 3 rails into the corner, I don't have to use exactly x speed and x amount of english, I can vary my speed and english, within reason, and still make it to the corner. If I plan a 3 rail route with center ball, a little running english or inadvertent inside english will change the route more drastically and cause the ball to miss.

Just my experience, maybe Dr. Dave/Bob/etc. have something to back it up or refute it physics-wise?

Scott

dr_dave
11-29-2012, 03:03 PM
I'm not sure if there is any physics to back this up, and maybe I'm just crazy. But as an example, when I kick 3 rails into the corner, I don't have to use exactly x speed and x amount of english, I can vary my speed and english, within reason, and still make it to the corner. If I plan a 3 rail route with center ball, a little running english or inadvertent inside english will change the route more drastically and cause the ball to miss.

Just my experience, maybe Dr. Dave/Bob/etc. have something to back it up or refute it physics-wise?2-rail and 3-rail kicks are much more predictable and consistent with natural (running) english (with a rolling CB). Both the Plus System (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html#Plus) and Corner-5 System (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html#Corner) are based on running english into the first rail. The systems are fairly insensitive to the exact amounts of speed and english used, but changes in speed and english do affect shot outcomes. For more info, including illustrations and examples, see the following articles on this topic:
"VEPS GEMS - Part IX: Plus System Adjustments (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2010/sept10.pdf)" (BD, September, 2010)
"VEPS GEMS - Part XIII: Corner-5 System Adjustments (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2011/jan11.pdf)" (BD, January, 2011)

Enjoy,
Dave

Bob Jewett
11-29-2012, 03:14 PM
... when I kick 3 rails into the corner, I don't have to use exactly x speed and x amount of english, I can vary my speed and english, within reason, and still make it to the corner. If I plan a 3 rail route with center ball, a little running english or inadvertent inside english will change the route more drastically and cause the ball to miss.

Just my experience, maybe Dr. Dave/Bob/etc. have something to back it up or refute it physics-wise?

Scott
A hand-wavy reason to have running follow on the cue ball when it hits the first cushion is that is what it will have for all the other cushions as well unless you hit the ball really, really hard. The ball "wants" to have that kind if spin just as in the open table the ball "wants" to have smoothly rolling follow.

Banks
11-29-2012, 03:27 PM
Based on experience, I disagree with the comments on center ball vs. english. If I use say 1 tip of 10:30 english to hit a certain spot, and instead hit at 11, or 10, or use 1.25 tips, etc., the variation is very minor. That's because the rail, assuming a relatively normal angle, would "add" running english to the shot anyway. When the ball goes into the rail with the english already there, it will tend to add or subtract as needed and sort of "smooth out" the amount of english. That's why when playing 3 cushion using running english and a 1/2 ball hit off the first object ball is the most forgiving shot, you really have a small range of values for both that end up at the same place on the third/fourth rail.

I'm not saying I won't kick using center ball, I certainly do. And as another poster said, using top/draw requires more judgement and feel as the reactions can vary from table to table and even rail to rail potentially and very sensitive to speed and entry angle. It's just that if I kick 1 rail at a ball, I know numerous systems using running english, and I prefer them over the dead ball or center ball systems, I have more leeway with the hit and speed where I can still hit the ball.

I'm not sure if there is any physics to back this up, and maybe I'm just crazy. But as an example, when I kick 3 rails into the corner, I don't have to use exactly x speed and x amount of english, I can vary my speed and english, within reason, and still make it to the corner. If I plan a 3 rail route with center ball, a little running english or inadvertent inside english will change the route more drastically and cause the ball to miss.

Just my experience, maybe Dr. Dave/Bob/etc. have something to back it up or refute it physics-wise?

Scott

Multi-rail kicks are more feely for me, but, like you, I tend to use running english as anything else can have a wide range of effects on the 2nd rail. Also, Diamond tables tend to kick back, so top I've felt has been more true to the angle on simple kicks.

As I said, I like to minimize the variables. Center with a good hit tends to produce good results for myself and my friends. The question was posed by somebody asking for help because their kicks/banks were off by almost a diamond. For that, I'd go with a more broad approach and assume that it was in regards to single rail kicks and banks.

Jaden
11-29-2012, 03:34 PM
Is looking at angle in/angle out through center ball.

If you take the extra step of looking at angle in/angle out through the contact point on the cue ball, or on the object when lining up banks, your accuracy will improve ten fold...

It's easy to find, it's always on the point of the ball that is directly parallel to the rail it is contacting.

Aim through the contact point for the angle in/angle out and then parallel shift on the ball to center ball and you have the aimline for the standard hit, then you have to adjust for speed of hit, and any english you have to use etc...

There is always feel involved in banks and kicks. That's the biggest downside to them.

No system will get you there 100%...

Jaden

alstl
11-29-2012, 03:37 PM
Plus 2, good description available from both Dr Dave and Bob Jewett.

Pidge
11-29-2012, 04:38 PM
Thanks for the link Dr Dave much appreciated.

It seems I was using the "reference lines" aiming method all along, I just didn't know it.
The way I think things through is very similar, and after 30 seconds of practice I was back making full table kicks with ridiculous accuracy. I think my bad run of form kicking and banking wise was just down to me being sloppy. Its far too easy when trying to figure out a 3 or 4 rail kick to confuse your self and just think "EFF IT!", ill just hit the damn CB.

In regards to previous posts about playing a kick with running english;

I very rarely kick at a ball slowly (unless I have to). So through experience I've kind of gained a feel for hitting a ball into a rail at speed, with running english to help it maintain the 'natural' angle off the rail. I think the best way to describe it is "gearing english" for kicks. If that makes any sense?

Any way, thanks for the replies and help.

Patrick Johnson
11-29-2012, 06:47 PM
I've kind of gained a feel for hitting a ball into a rail at speed, with running english to help it maintain the 'natural' angle off the rail. I think the best way to describe it is "gearing english" for kicks. If that makes any sense?
A simple way to visualize how much english = gearing english: gearing english = tip offset 2/5 of distance to CB's "opposite contact point".

It works for CB contacts with rails or OBs and changes automatically with the angle of approach. (It also works for putting immediate rolling follow on the CB.)

250158

pj
chgo

Bob Jewett
11-29-2012, 10:38 PM
A simple way to visualize how much english = gearing english: gearing english = tip offset 2/5 of distance to CB's "opposite contact point"....
I think Ron Shepard was the first to come up with this idea. It's too bad that he never made the transition to AZB.

Patrick Johnson
11-30-2012, 06:18 AM
I think Ron Shepard was the first to come up with this idea. It's too bad that he never made the transition to AZB.
Yes, Ron, you and Mike Page were the RSB technical experts who taught me just about everything I (claim to) know. It's also too bad that Ron doesn't get into Chicago more... haven't seen him in years.

pj
chgo

dr_dave
11-30-2012, 07:53 AM
A simple way to visualize how much english = gearing english: gearing english = tip offset 2/5 of distance to CB's "opposite contact point".

It works for CB contacts with rails or OBs and changes automatically with the angle of approach. (It also works for putting immediate rolling follow on the CB.)

250158This technique, which I like to call the "40% rule," is also useful for judging the amount of outside english required for no throw on cut shots. Here's a diagram from my outside English resource page (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/English.html#outside):

http://billiards.colostate.edu/images/gearing_outside_english.jpg

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
11-30-2012, 07:56 AM
I think Ron Shepard was the first to come up with this idea. It's too bad that he never made the transition to AZB.Agreed. Ron contributed many great ideas for translating pool physics principles into useful pool-playing advice. That's too bad he isn't on AZB to contribute further insights.

Regards,
Dave

scottjen26
11-30-2012, 02:05 PM
Yep, I remember Ron from the RSB days, learned quite a bit from him (and the other usual suspects still here) as well.

Cuetable and Photoshop sure beat drawing diagrams with pipes, dashes, underscores, and other assorted ANSI characters, right?? :)

Scott

hardrolled
11-30-2012, 02:09 PM
no matter what system you use. practice and get used to kicking on the table you use the most. that way when you go out you have a comparison when warming up for a tourney/match and can make adjustments .

uwate
11-30-2012, 03:16 PM
You should also start experimenting with what shooting into a rail with stun and draw does. Also there is a big difference to what happens shooting into a rail at an acute angle vs a shallow angle. Its not just learning angles but also how hitting different speeds and english will change angles. Try this one. Hit a ball at a shallow angle with straight outside (9 or 3 on the clock) and see what happens. You might be surprised how much it shortens up the kick.