PDA

View Full Version : Can someone expalin the Term "Pro Taper"


dsoriano
11-29-2012, 02:12 PM
I know Shafts are offered with different lengths of Pro Tapers, 10", 12" so on. Does the term Pro Taper, apply to all playing cues which means the distance of the dia from the tip to the point where the taper begins? Or is it a specific type of taper? ? I know break cues have a consistent taper, or lack of, I should say. Its more of a consistent decrease of dia. Is there a different term for a shaft that has a different taper? I know this topic may sound funny but I got to thinking about it too much and I kind of over thought it to where now I don’t know what to think.

P.S I did a search on this topic before posting and found nothing.

the kidd
11-29-2012, 02:29 PM
Pool

A typical two-piece cue for pocket billiards is usually made mostly of hard rock maple, with a fiberglass or phenolic resin ferrule, usually 0.75 to 1 inch (19 to 25 mm) long, and steel joint collars and pin. Pool cues average around 58 inches (150 cm) long, are commonly available in 17–21 ounces (0.48–0.60 kg) weights, with 19 ounces (0.54 kg) being the most common, and usually have a tip diameter in the range of 12.75 – 13.25 mm.[6] A conical taper, with the shaft gradually shrinking in diameter from joint to ferrule, is favored by some, but the "pro" taper is increasingly popular, straight for most of the length of the shaft from ferrule back, flaring to joint diameter only in the last 1⁄4 to 1⁄3 of the shaft. While there are many custom cuemakers, a very large number of quality pool cues are manufactured in bulk. In recent years, more technological materials such as fiberglass, carbon fiber, aluminum, etc., have been increasingly used for shafts and butts, and there has been a trend toward experimentation with rubber, memory foam and other soft wraps.I know Shafts are offered with different lengths of Pro Tapers, 10", 12" so on. Does the term Pro Taper, apply to all playing cues which means the distance of the dia from the tip to the point where the taper begins? Or is it a specific type of taper? ? I know break cues have a consistent taper, or lack of, I should say. Its more of a consistent decrease of dia. Is there a different term for a shaft that has a different taper? I know this topic may sound funny but I got to thinking about it too much and I kind of over thought it to where now I don’t know what to think.

P.S I did a search on this topic before posting and found nothing.

TATE
11-29-2012, 02:31 PM
I know Shafts are offered with different lengths of Pro Tapers, 10", 12" so on. Does the term Pro Taper, apply to all playing cues which means the distance of the dia from the tip to the point where the taper begins? Or is it a specific type of taper? ? I know break cues have a consistent taper, or lack of, I should say. Its more of a consistent decrease of dia. Is there a different term for a shaft that has a different taper? I know this topic may sound funny but I got to thinking about it too much and I kind of over thought it to where now I don’t know what to think.

P.S I did a search on this topic before posting and found nothing.

Let me preface this by saying, these days, it's more of a selling and marketing term than a universally accepted definition.

Brunswick started using the term "professional taper" in the 1930's, and what it described was a double taper. Instead of having a single taper from the butt to the tip, the shaft was tapered at a lesser degree from about 12" from the tip.

Somehow the term came to mean no taper at all for the length of the taper, whatever that may be. Most cues do not truly have a "professional taper".

Today's shafts tend to have a double taper, sometimes called a pro taper or modified pro taper. The first 12" - 16" from the tip runs one taper, for example increases by 1mm or 2mm, then another taper to the butt from there. The taper greatly affects the playing characteristics of the cue.


Here's a pretty good rundown on tapers:

http://www.ravencues.com/shafts.html

Snapshot9
11-29-2012, 05:35 PM
Back when I started playing (1962), all the books and was advocated to have your bridge hand 6-8" behind the tip. Gradually, over the years, players were using a longer bridge and wanted a shaft that was consistent, or the same diameter, over the length of their stroke. They did not want to feel the cue diameter get bigger when they stroked the ball, especially if they used the closed bridge.

The Pro Taper was developed to meet this demand from the Pool world.
A Pro Taper normally runs to 10-13". A Super Pro Taper normally runs 13" to 15".

bbb
11-29-2012, 05:39 PM
i have not read all the replies...:embarrassed2:....:embarrassed2:
but ask that question in the ask the cuemaker forum
and find out what the cue makers think
jmho
icbw

Blue Hog ridr
11-29-2012, 05:46 PM
And here all along, I thought it was a guy that was a very good dry waller.

Patrick Johnson
11-29-2012, 06:30 PM
Pool

A typical two-piece cue for pocket billiards is usually made mostly of hard rock maple, with a fiberglass or phenolic resin ferrule, usually 0.75 to 1 inch (19 to 25 mm) long, and steel joint collars and pin. Pool cues average around 58 inches (150 cm) long, are commonly available in 17–21 ounces (0.48–0.60 kg) weights, with 19 ounces (0.54 kg) being the most common, and usually have a tip diameter in the range of 12.75 – 13.25 mm.[6] A conical taper, with the shaft gradually shrinking in diameter from joint to ferrule, is favored by some, but the "pro" taper is increasingly popular, straight for most of the length of the shaft from ferrule back, flaring to joint diameter only in the last 1⁄4 to 1⁄3 of the shaft. While there are many custom cuemakers, a very large number of quality pool cues are manufactured in bulk. In recent years, more technological materials such as fiberglass, carbon fiber, aluminum, etc., have been increasingly used for shafts and butts, and there has been a trend toward experimentation with rubber, memory foam and other soft wraps.
The part in blue above is backwards. It should read: "straight for the first 1/4-1/2 of the shaft from ferrule back, flaring to joint diameter in the last 1/2-3/4 of the shaft".

pj <- or thereabouts
chgo

seven_7days
11-29-2012, 08:09 PM
Pro taper? guy on the left

http://www.marshall.edu/parthenon/archives/20000216/life/taping.jpg

Mr. Bond
11-30-2012, 10:22 AM
And here all along, I thought it was a guy that was a very good dry waller.

how silly.

everyone really knows what a pro tapir looks like:

http://akrainforest10.pbworks.com/f/1271288592/tapir1.jpg

gulyassy
11-30-2012, 12:42 PM
A pro taper is whatever the cue makes decides his will be. Most are a little different and can be just about anything anymore as more and more cue makers are appearing everywhere with there ideas of cues.

naji
11-30-2012, 03:57 PM
Pool

A typical two-piece cue for pocket billiards is usually made mostly of hard rock maple, with a fiberglass or phenolic resin ferrule, usually 0.75 to 1 inch (19 to 25 mm) long, and steel joint collars and pin. Pool cues average around 58 inches (150 cm) long, are commonly available in 17–21 ounces (0.48–0.60 kg) weights, with 19 ounces (0.54 kg) being the most common, and usually have a tip diameter in the range of 12.75 – 13.25 mm.[6] A conical taper, with the shaft gradually shrinking in diameter from joint to ferrule, is favored by some, but the "pro" taper is increasingly popular, straight for most of the length of the shaft from ferrule back, flaring to joint diameter only in the last 1⁄4 to 1⁄3 of the shaft. While there are many custom cuemakers, a very large number of quality pool cues are manufactured in bulk. In recent years, more technological materials such as fiberglass, carbon fiber, aluminum, etc., have been increasingly used for shafts and butts, and there has been a trend toward experimentation with rubber, memory foam and other soft wraps.

I find it very helpful to use conical taper for draw shots, it avoids miss cue better since shaft rises as you cue forward, pro taper remains at same of which if you are not careful could offer miscue situation. The opposite is true for high top english, near rail shots with conical taper could offer miscue situations (miss the whole CB at times) also.

ENGLISH!
11-30-2012, 04:31 PM
I find it very helpful to use conical taper for draw shots, it avoids miss cue better since shaft rises as you cue forward, pro taper remains at same of which if you are not careful could offer miscue situation. The opposite is true for high top english, near rail shots with conical taper could offer miscue situations (miss the whole CB at times) also.

Mr. Naji,

That is interesting. I have never thought of that before. In thinking back to my days of playing with my conical cue, I would say that I did miscue a bit when shooting force follow shots.

Thanks for that insight,

naji
11-30-2012, 06:57 PM
Mr. Naji,

That is interesting. I have never thought of that before. In thinking back to my days of playing with my conical cue, I would say that I did miscue a bit when shooting force follow shots.

Thanks for that insight,

I am glad i added a check list item to your arsenal. So many check list items we need a computer before we shoot a shot!!!!

ENGLISH!
11-30-2012, 07:31 PM
I am glad i added a check list item to your arsenal. So many check list items we need a computer before we shoot a shot!!!!

Mr. Naji,

Believe it not, I do not have a check list or even a consistant pre shot routine. I just file all the info in my version of the amazing mind that I believe all human beings have.

That being said, I have no doubt that the next time I pull out my conical cue I will remember what you said & when I go to shoot a high force follow shot I will remember it again.

It's filed away & ready for recall.

Thanks again,

CrownCityCorey
11-30-2012, 10:04 PM
A "Pro Taper" length is the distance, in inches, from the cue shaft ferulle to the point at which there is a difference of 1mm.

Example: if your ferrule measures 13mm, then 13inches down the shaft it now measures 14mm, then you have a 13inch pro taper.

seven_7days
12-01-2012, 01:00 AM
Mr. Naji,

Believe it not, I do not have a check list or even a consistant pre shot routine. I just file all the info in my version of the amazing mind that I believe all human beings have.

That being said, I have no doubt that the next time I pull out my conical cue I will remember what you said & when I go to shoot a high force follow shot I will remember it again.

It's filed away & ready for recall.

Thanks again,

I used to think the mind was the most beautiful part of the human body.
And then, I realized...look what's telling me that.

naji
12-01-2012, 05:05 AM
Mr. Naji,

Believe it not, I do not have a check list or even a consistant pre shot routine. I just file all the info in my version of the amazing mind that I believe all human beings have.

That being said, I have no doubt that the next time I pull out my conical cue I will remember what you said & when I go to shoot a high force follow shot I will remember it again.

It's filed away & ready for recall.

Thanks again,

Just to clarify, that is what i meant in check list, is file it in memory, and recall when needed. With pool there are lots of those items that at times when a shot is difficult far away your brain/subconscious recalls the items itched in stone quick, but some times other not often used check list item fade away from our subconscious for lack of use and that is where we miss, unless we get the sucker conscious brain to step in but it's draw back, it is a bit slower than the sub since it has to fetch the info from old memory bank

The more knowledgeable of pool and its check items, and the more you practice the 4000 possibilities the more consistent player you will be

Have fun

Patrick Johnson
12-01-2012, 08:17 AM
I find it very helpful to use conical taper for draw shots, it avoids miss cue better since shaft rises as you cue forward, pro taper remains at same of which if you are not careful could offer miscue situation. The opposite is true for high top english, near rail shots with conical taper could offer miscue situations (miss the whole CB at times) also.
The tip strikes the CB in the same place you pointed it during your practice strokes - nothing changes.

pj
chgo

ENGLISH!
12-01-2012, 08:26 AM
The tip strikes the CB in the same place you pointed it during your practice strokes - nothing changes.

pj
chgo

PJ

That would be correct if you set up with the tip close to the CB as in the SPF system. However there are times when some of us do not do that & even one(1) mm does make a difference.

Regards,

ENGLISH!
12-01-2012, 08:29 AM
I used to think the mind was the most beautiful part of the human body.
And then, I realized...look what's telling me that.

Ah, there's the rub. To me, the conscious brain & the subconscious mind are two(2) seperate 'entities'. And then, you do not always have to listen to your brain, you can listen to your 'heart':wink:.

Regards,

naji
12-01-2012, 09:16 AM
The tip strikes the CB in the same place you pointed it during your practice strokes - nothing changes.

pj
chgo

Hi PJ,
Have you ever in your pool journey parked the cue on top of the CB shooting with high english with CB frozen to the rail? where only the cue shaft moved and parked the CB in its place under it...

Patrick Johnson
12-01-2012, 01:11 PM
Hi PJ,
Have you ever in your pool journey parked the cue on top of the CB shooting with high english with CB frozen to the rail? where only the cue shaft moved and parked the CB in its place under it...
I don't understand your question - maybe you can just make your point?

pj
chgo

ENGLISH!
12-01-2012, 01:38 PM
The cue ball is up against the rail & you have to bridge close or you are playing on a table with high curved rail frames & you want to bridge on it.

You're cueing at near the miscue area anyway & if the stroke of the conical taper raises the tip at all, say 1mm or more, there is a possibility that a miscue could occur. But if one is conscious (or subconscious) of the taper one can make an adaptation to hopefully avoid miscueing.

Patrick Johnson
12-01-2012, 04:09 PM
The cue ball is up against the rail & you have to bridge close or you are playing on a table with high curved rail frames & you want to bridge on it.

You're cueing at near the miscue area anyway & if the stroke of the conical taper raises the tip at all, say 1mm or more, there is a possibility that a miscue could occur. But if one is conscious (or subconscious) of the taper one can make an adaptation to hopefully avoid miscueing.
Once again... the tip strikes the CB in the same place you pointed it during your practice strokes - nothing changes.

pj
chgo

naji
12-01-2012, 04:29 PM
Once again... the tip strikes the CB in the same place you pointed it during your practice strokes - nothing changes.

pj
chgo

Ok PJ, you are making it difficult, say the tapper is 10 mm for argument sake, and cue is parallel to rail and sits on the rail holding it with your two fingers, as you slide the cue forward what happens then if you shoot parallel (not elevated)

Patrick Johnson
12-01-2012, 04:36 PM
Ok PJ, you are making it difficult, say the tapper is 10 mm for argument sake, and cue is parallel to rail and sits on the rail holding it with your two fingers, as you slide the cue forward what happens then if you shoot parallel (not elevated)
The same thing that happened when you were taking practice strokes and deciding where you could hit the CB. This is a non-issue.

pj
chgo

naji
12-01-2012, 04:53 PM
The same thing that happened when you were taking practice strokes and deciding where you could hit the CB. This is a non-issue.

pj
chgo

Ok, PJ, if i ever see you i will show you.

Dunnn51
12-01-2012, 06:36 PM
English and Naji,.................... I see what you are saying ,and since I shoot an 11mm long(or conical) taper, I know exactly where you are coming from! I Even have opponents who purposely leave me against the rail so I am forced to shoot top- follow from the rail. Most (like 75%) of my miscues come from this situation. It takes a little more angle on the cue, and some dilligent concentration of the hit in those situations. In short: It does change!

Sorry PJ, . I'm disagreeing with you again.

ENGLISH!
12-01-2012, 07:35 PM
Mr. Dunn,

You know what Mr. Naji is talking about because you've done it. I too have done it. There's no substitute for experience, good or bad.

Best Regards,

Patrick Johnson
12-01-2012, 09:01 PM
English and Naji,.................... I see what you are saying ,and since I shoot an 11mm long(or conical) taper, I know exactly where you are coming from! I Even have opponents who purposely leave me against the rail so I am forced to shoot top- follow from the rail. Most (like 75%) of my miscues come from this situation. It takes a little more angle on the cue, and some dilligent concentration of the hit in those situations. In short: It does change!

Sorry PJ, . I'm disagreeing with you again.
No prob. This isn't really important enough to continue with, but I have nothing else to do at the moment, so I'll take one more stab at explaining.

To shoot a rail-frozen shot with a level cue that has a conical taper (assuming that's possible) you don't hold it with its center axis level; you hold it with its bottom edge level - the way your practice strokes have showed you it's possible to hit the cue ball below the miscue limit. If your practice strokes haven't showed you this fact, then you need to work on your cueing precision.

pj
chgo

ENGLISH!
12-01-2012, 09:30 PM
No prob. This isn't really important enough to continue with, but I have nothing else to do at the moment, so I'll take one more stab at explaining.

To shoot a rail-frozen shot with a level cue that has a conical taper (assuming that's possible) you don't hold it with its center axis level; you hold it with its bottom edge level - the way your practice strokes have showed you it's possible to hit the cue ball below the miscue limit. If your practice strokes haven't showed you this fact, then you need to work on your cueing precision.

pj
chgo

PJ,

You make an assumption that everyone makes practice strokes & that they do it very near the CB. When the cue ball is frozen on the rail & one is bridgeing to hit a harder shot one may choose to bridge with one's hand off of the rail frame only supported by their fingers. This is often done to allow more stroke than bridging on the rail. When doing this on some tables there is a slight danger of catching the rail where it meets the rail frame with the tip & it bouncing up. So assuring that the tip clears the rail is of some importance & is warranted of some focus. When one is trying to keep the cue as level as possible a miscue is more likely if one 'forgets' that one is playing with a conical tapered shaft. No one said it was inevitable or could not be avoided with the proper technique. Knowing & acknowledging your equipment parameters is a good thing & that is what Mr. Naji was saying.

I do not mean to offend you, but many times you seem to assume that everyone plays in the same manner that you have been taught. When doing so you seem to close your mind to other options. Please do not take offense as non is intended. I'm merely making an observation that might be helpful for you to consider in the future. I also know I take a risk in pointing this out, but I think the risk may be worth it if it helps in any way.

Regards,

Patrick Johnson
12-01-2012, 10:24 PM
ENGLISH!:
... assuring that the tip clears the rail is of some importance & is warranted of some focus.
You're careful enough to assure the tip clears the rail but not enough to see where it hits the CB?

pj
chgo

Dunnn51
12-01-2012, 11:30 PM
PJ,

You make an assumption that everyone makes practice strokes & that they do it very near the CB. When the cue ball is frozen on the rail & one is bridgeing to hit a harder shot one may choose to bridge with one's hand off of the rail frame only supported by their fingers. This is often done to allow more stroke than bridging on the rail. When doing this on some tables there is a slight danger of catching the rail where it meets the rail frame with the tip & it bouncing up. So assuring that the tip clears the rail is of some importance & is warranted of some focus. When one is trying to keep the cue as level as possible a miscue is more likely if one 'forgets' that one is playing with a conical tapered shaft. No one said it was inevitable or could not be avoided with the proper technique. Knowing & acknowledging your equipment parameters is a good thing & that is what Mr. Naji was saying.
I do not mean to offend you, but many times you seem to assume that everyone plays in the same manner that you have been taught. When doing so you seem to close your mind to other options. Please do not take offense as non is intended. I'm merely making an observation that might be helpful for you to consider in the future. I also know I take a risk in pointing this out, but I think the risk may be worth it if it helps in any way.

Regards,

Very well explained..... My sentiments too. I don't think PJ means any harm; he just fails to see other viewpoints objectively.

You do indeed learn to have a good hand-bridge from all the rail-shots you are forced to make. Again, I jack the angle of my cue,(ok jack isn't a good word to use here perhaps),which in turn gives you a little room under the miscue limit. This creates a minute amount of spin which must be adjusted for in aim on the OB when making the shot. I think everyone who has a thin tapered shaft has had their cue roll right over the CB at one time or another!

Patrick Johnson
12-02-2012, 03:15 AM
Dunnn51:
I think everyone who has a thin tapered shaft has had their cue roll right over the CB at one time or another!
Everyone with any kind of shaft has had this happen. It's called a miscue and there's no reason it should be a special problem with conical shafts. This is all unfounded speculation.

pj
chgo

naji
12-02-2012, 07:55 AM
PJ,

You make an assumption that everyone makes practice strokes & that they do it very near the CB. When the cue ball is frozen on the rail & one is bridgeing to hit a harder shot one may choose to bridge with one's hand off of the rail frame only supported by their fingers. This is often done to allow more stroke than bridging on the rail. When doing this on some tables there is a slight danger of catching the rail where it meets the rail frame with the tip & it bouncing up. So assuring that the tip clears the rail is of some importance & is warranted of some focus. When one is trying to keep the cue as level as possible a miscue is more likely if one 'forgets' that one is playing with a conical tapered shaft. No one said it was inevitable or could not be avoided with the proper technique. Knowing & acknowledging your equipment parameters is a good thing & that is what Mr. Naji was saying.

I do not mean to offend you, but many times you seem to assume that everyone plays in the same manner that you have been taught. When doing so you seem to close your mind to other options. Please do not take offense as non is intended. I'm merely making an observation that might be helpful for you to consider in the future. I also know I take a risk in pointing this out, but I think the risk may be worth it if it helps in any way.

Regards,

Great explanation Rick. I add, we are not saying you will miss cue all the time, but the opportunity for new player is there for conical taper than a pro taper with high english-level shaft. For draw shot there is opportunity to prevents miss cue.

Dunnn51
12-02-2012, 08:15 AM
me quoting you ? [QUOTE]Everyone with any kind of shaft has had this happen. It's called a miscue Yepp, PJ you got that part right anyway.and there's no reason it should be a special problem with conical shafts. This is all unfounded speculation.Sorry PJ, yer wrong here. What Naji & ENGLISH! were referring to is that there is more of a chance for a miscue with a conical than a straight taper when using force(or top) follow, and that since the view of the sweet spot on the CB is small, it is easy to hit the rail with the cueand have it interfere with whitey on a close tight shot. For a longer shot,(when CB & OB are more than say 2 feet away), you need to hit under miscue limit and with some "ooomph" to get whitey to the OB. This creates some slight negative spin
For a sharp eye, a straight merits over a conical in these situations which is why ENGLISH made a mental note of what Naji said

Actually, its quite founded.

You seemed a bit confused over this......
I don't understand your question - maybe you can just make your point?

pj
chgo

and here as well, you don't understand what he is trying to tell you. (possibly from inexperience in making such shots?)............

You're careful enough to assure the tip clears the rail but not enough to see where it hits the CB?
pj
chgo
Honestly PJ,..... I'm NOT going to get into a "discussion" with you over it here. I am sure you are going to have some droit reply, and I think we have highjacked this thread enough without you wanting to increase your thread count replies. You are entitled to your opinion as we all are; however whether it is "unfounded" or not is subjective at best.

My apologies to the OP for going a bit off-topic. :embarrassed2:

I'm Done ! Dunnn51

Patrick Johnson
12-02-2012, 08:27 AM
there is more of a chance for a miscue with a conical than a straight taper when using force(or top) follow
No more than with any cue. If you're inexperienced or careless enough to not figure out where your cue is going to strike the cue ball before you take the shot, then it won't help you to have a pro taper and it won't hurt you to have a conical one. It's not the taper.

pj
chgo

ENGLISH!
12-02-2012, 11:45 AM
dsoriano,

Sorry the thread went off topic after Mr. Naji tried to help.

However, I think you got a fairly good explanation of pro taper vs conical/European taper. To be honest I feel that I play a bit better with a conical than pro taper & am actually trying to decide on which LD conical I want. That may be because I learned how to play & played with a conical taper from 13 to about 33 years old.

I do not know if it has yet been mentioned in the thread but another seemingly advantage to the conical taper is that the converging outer lines of the shaft seem to 'guide' one's eyes toward the center point of the tip vs. the more parallel lines of the pro taper.

In the old days, the conical cues seemed to hit firmer & with less vibration than the pro tapers, especailly when hit with 'english' or off center. With the lamenated build of most LD shafts that whippy vibration has been taken out.

Good Luck with your decision & if you have any questions that have not been addressed please feel free to PM me if you would like MHO.

Best Regards,

alstl
12-02-2012, 11:49 AM
Pro taper means same shaft diameter for several inches back from the tip. Examples of pros with a long pro taper are Van Boening and Strickland.

ENGLISH!
12-02-2012, 12:24 PM
You're careful enough to assure the tip clears the rail but not enough to see where it hits the CB?

pj
chgo

PJ,

Is that question meant to be of a sarcastic, retaliatory, insulting nature or does it have a useful purpose?

I would suggest that anyone read my entire post & put it in the context of which it was intended.

Mr. Naji was & later I was merely explaining how & why a miscue could happen if one is not consciously or subconsciously aware of the different taper of a conical shaft vs a pro taper shaft. We were merely trying to help anyone from miscueing with one in the future as Mr. Naji, I & Mr. Dunnn have.

I guess by your comments that you have never miscued because you pay such perfect attention to everything.

Have you ever played with a conical taper shaft & tried to hit a 'force follow' shot from off of the rail?

Well it is quite obvious that the three(3) of us have... & have not been 100% perfectly successful.

Regards,

Patrick Johnson
12-02-2012, 03:31 PM
PJ,

Is that question meant to be of a sarcastic, retaliatory, insulting nature or does it have a useful purpose?
Take it however you like. I'm not interested in your drama.

Have you ever played with a conical taper shaft & tried to hit a 'force follow' shot from off of the rail?
I've played exclusively with a conical taper for more than a dozen years.

pj
chgo

ENGLISH!
12-02-2012, 03:40 PM
Deleted. It's not worth it.

Hits 'em Hard
12-02-2012, 04:13 PM
With a pro taper shaft, you will be able to line up to a shot, put the tip in the area you want to contact, and as long as you don't have any other stroke flaws, you won't need to do any fancy stuff in order for the tip to go straight. With a conical taper shaft, you must adjust how you line up due to the non parallel sides of the shaft causing the tip to rise and fall as its stroked, when lined up using dead center of the shaft as your aim.

If you lined up the on the rail shot you guys are talking about, you will be forced to jack the butt end of the conical taper shaft to allow it to follow the straight bottom edge, and not have the tip rise or fall. And if you are having problems with miscues on force follow, changing to a pro taper won't help, there are other areas you aren't paying attention to.

ENGLISH!
12-02-2012, 06:04 PM
With a pro taper shaft, you will be able to line up to a shot, put the tip in the area you want to contact, and as long as you don't have any other stroke flaws, you won't need to do any fancy stuff in order for the tip to go straight. With a conical taper shaft, you must adjust how you line up due to the non parallel sides of the shaft causing the tip to rise and fall as its stroked, when lined up using dead center of the shaft as your aim.

If you lined up the on the rail shot you guys are talking about, you will be forced to jack the butt end of the conical taper shaft to allow it to follow the straight bottom edge, and not have the tip rise or fall. And if you are having problems with miscues on force follow, changing to a pro taper won't help, there are other areas you aren't paying attention to.

Okay, I'll play along for awhile. I do not believe anyone said they were having any ongoing problems with miscueing with a conical shaft. Mr. Naji merely pointed out the difference in the taper & the fact that if one does not take that into consideration one could have a tendancy to miscue on high cue ball contact shots like the 'force follow'.

You do not have to do any fancy stuff. As PJ has suggested, if you gauge up to the CB & do not have a funcky grip or any funky stroke mechanic flaws the tip should return the desired contact point. There are some other 'abnormal' shots that may need some attention in order to decrease the odds of a possible miscue. One of which has already been pointed out.

In 'jacking up' the butt end of the cue, it is a minor variation if one even wants to call it a variation as I believe the conical taper came before the pro taper(I might be wrong). The center line of the shaft would be angled down very slighty as the stick rides on the bridge & the tip would have a miniscule angle to it as well. This is only required if you want the tip to ride more in a vertically stable straight line than it the slight down & up movment if one would holds the cue firmly enough to keep the stick on the center line of the cue. In that case the stick would actually leave the bridge going back & return down to it on the forward stroke.

All that being said, if one would ever bridge beyond that of the point of the pro taper and then stroke, the sudden rising of the tip on the foward stroke might cause a problem even though it would fall & rise back to the aimed point, but that rising motion might cause an imprecise contact.

So, all that being said, I'll play along, what other abnormalities may need attention in order to decrease the odds of a possible miscue?

Tramp Steamer
12-02-2012, 06:42 PM
Getting back on subject, a "pro-taper" is that little tool the professional pool player uses to shape his cue tip. Most pros keep them in that little pocket on their...what? It's tapper, not taper?
Nevermind. :)

ENGLISH!
12-02-2012, 06:46 PM
Getting back on subject, a "pro-taper" is that little tool the professional pool player uses to shape his cue tip. Most pros keep them in that little pocket on their...what? It's tapper, not taper?
Nevermind. :)

Thanks for the chuckle.:rotflmao1:

But on an important note, Whatever you do...do not put masking 'tape' on your 'tapper'.

Regards,

Patrick Johnson
12-02-2012, 08:46 PM
With a conical taper shaft, you must adjust how you line up due to the non parallel sides of the shaft causing the tip to rise and fall as its stroked, when lined up using dead center of the shaft as your aim.
Nobody is aware of how the center axis of their shaft moves, because that's not useful information - we just know how the tip moves and where it ends up on the CB. We "adjust" to make that happen whether it's a pro or a conical taper.

pj
chgo

ENGLISH!
12-02-2012, 09:25 PM
Nobody is aware of how the center axis of their shaft moves, because that's not useful information - we just know how the tip moves and where it ends up on the CB. We "adjust" to make that happen whether it's a pro or a conical taper.

pj
chgo

That's interesting. Just how do we "adjust"?

Patrick Johnson
12-02-2012, 09:43 PM
Nobody is aware of how the center axis of their shaft moves, because that's not useful information - we just know how the tip moves and where it ends up on the CB. We "adjust" to make that happen whether it's a pro or a conical taper.

pj
chgo
ENGLISH!
That's interesting. Just how do we "adjust"?
Obviously by having the grip hand at the right height in both cases - one is no more difficult or less intuitive than the other.

pj
chgo

ENGLISH!
12-02-2012, 09:48 PM
Obviously by having the grip hand at the right height in both cases - one is no more difficult or less intuitive than the other.

pj
chgo

"intuitive" By intuition, so we "adjust" by intuition. We agree!

deanoc
12-03-2012, 01:38 AM
pro taper refers to the shaft remaing close to the same size for several inches before it begins to gradually increase in circumference until it reaches the joint area

it is favored by many pro players as the added flex enables them to put more english on the cueball with less effort,or so the story goes

i personally don't like them at all,i fould that it provides a lot of inconsistency and unwanted results

i designed the Deano cue with no pro taper at all and found that i got more control.more english and less deflection

a while back,az had a poll for best hitting cues and the results were the top 3 were Tim Scruggs,Southwest cues and Schon

it was funny that this reflected my opinions as well,these 3 cues have siffish tapers and play great

When I made the Deano cue,Tim and Mike had me send mine to them,they were so tickled with all my talk that they wanted to see what was up

They were so impressed that they actually changed their taper to something more like my deano cue(mine was a consistent linear progression from tip to joint)

they modified theirs in that direction

I talked to danny Janes at joss and he said he played the best pool of his career with a taper like this and their was no doubt in his mind that it was better to play with

When I asked him why he didn't put them on his cues,he said "they don't sell,people prefer pro taper"

an analogy to golf confirms my point

regular and senior flex shafts enable a player to get more flex and hit shots with slower swings,but good players lose control
therefore almost all good golfers use extra stiff shafts

it is my belief that meucci wimpy shafts which were at one time so popular,influenced the thinking of a generation of pool players

i maintain that it was hype and not scientific investigation that caused people to play pro taper shafts,even the description(pro taper) breeds a certain bias in their favor

why you ask, do so many pros like them?if you start out playing anything and get use to it,you will play well with it,not because of it

post hoc ergo proctor hoc

JoeyInCali
12-03-2012, 02:18 AM
The original pro-taper I believe referred to slow increase of diameter
of the shaft from the tip up the stroking area.
These days shafts with more than 2mm of diameter increase in
the middle of the shaft is considered a stiff taper.
Which one plays better is an endless debate.

naji
12-03-2012, 04:36 AM
that's interesting. Just how do we "adjust"?

add to the top and bottom shifting, side shifting as well placing more english at times. See 2011 old post i responded to yesterday.

Chopdoc
12-03-2012, 04:56 AM
post hoc ergo proctor hoc


It's propter, not proctor. :wink:









Anyway, what we know as pro taper was popular before Meucci.



.

Patrick Johnson
12-03-2012, 05:25 AM
side shifting as well placing more english at times
Why not less?

pj
chgo

ENGLISH!
12-03-2012, 10:35 AM
deanoc,

Very good post. I tend to agree. What is a siffish taper?

Regards,

ENGLISH!
12-03-2012, 12:23 PM
Why not less?

pj
chgo

I won't answer for Mr. Naji, but for me it is because I try to use only enough english to get the job, position I want, accomplished. So.. when down on the shot & the perspective & perception changes it often becomes apparent that a little more english is needed, or sometimes it's an adustment on the vertical axis & even sometimes less english is the answer but not as often since I have already made the decison to use english. When one decides to use english one never wants to use it in excess. Therefore the error as to choosing the 'correct' amount is more often made on the under side.

Patrick Johnson
12-03-2012, 12:36 PM
...the error as to choosing the 'correct' amount is more often made on the under side.
naji's comment and my question aren't about errors in choosing the correct amount; they're about getting more or less than you've chosen.

pj
chgo

ENGLISH!
12-03-2012, 01:09 PM
naji's comment and my question aren't about errors in choosing the correct amount; they're about getting more or less than you've chosen.

pj
chgo

Sorry,

I guees I took it wrong from the short quote.

It might be a good idea if the forum could add the post #'s when someone does a quote so readers could easily go back & read the whole quote if & when needed.

Sorry Again,

naji
12-03-2012, 06:27 PM
Sorry,

I guees I took it wrong from the short quote.

It might be a good idea if the forum could add the post #'s when someone does a quote so readers could easily go back & read the whole quote if & when needed.

Sorry Again,

Sorry Rick and Pat, i rushed my reply i was heading out the door. I meant refer to a 2011 year post i found by running a Google search on the subject.


http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=3889102#post3889102

ENGLISH!
12-03-2012, 06:40 PM
Sorry Rick and Pat, i rushed my reply i was heading out the door. I meant refer to a 2011 year post i found by running a Google search on the subject.


http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=3889102#post3889102

Mr. Naji,

Thanks for the link. I found an opinion on another matter I was wondering about.

Regards,

Patrick Johnson
12-03-2012, 08:17 PM
Sorry Rick and Pat, i rushed my reply i was heading out the door. I meant refer to a 2011 year post i found by running a Google search on the subject.


http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=3889102#post3889102
naji, I understood what you were saying - no need for Hunger Strike's 2011 post to clarify (but thanks anyway for going to the trouble of finding it). I think you must still misunderstand what I've been saying:

We know where we're going to hit the cue ball by where our set up and practice strokes show us we'll hit. This is true whether our shaft has a pro taper or a conical taper, whether we take no practice strokes or many, and whether our practice strokes stop near or far from the cue ball. We know this is true because we must do it and it's the only way we have to do it.

So if we hit the cue ball somewhere else it's not because the shaft's taper put the tip one place on our practice stroke(s) and someplace else on the shot stroke - it's the same shaft both times, after all. It's because our stroke varied.

pj
chgo

ENGLISH!
12-03-2012, 08:30 PM
naji, I understood what you were saying - no need for Hunger Strike's 2011 post to clarify (but thanks anyway for going to the trouble of finding it). I think you must still misunderstand what I've been saying:

We know where we're going to hit the cue ball by where our set up and practice strokes show us we'll hit. This is true whether our shaft has a pro taper or a conical taper, whether we take no practice strokes or many, and whether our practice strokes stop near or far from the cue ball. We know this is true because we must do it and it's the only way we have to do it.

So if we hit the cue ball somewhere else it's not because the shaft's taper put the tip one place on our practice stroke(s) and someplace else on the shot stroke - it's the same shaft both times, after all. It's because our stroke varied.

pj
chgo

PJ,

I'm intersted in your opinon. Would it matter if the cue stick was bent in the bridge area?

Patrick Johnson
12-03-2012, 09:13 PM
I'm intersted in your opinon.
And I was born yesterday. You're fishing for inconsistency.

Would it matter if the cue stick was bent in the bridge area?
The first few times you used it, maybe. After that you'd either figure out how to hit the CB accurately with it or get a new shaft.

pj
chgo

ENGLISH!
12-03-2012, 09:46 PM
And I was born yesterday. You're fishing for inconsistency.


The first few times you used it, maybe. After that you'd either figure out how to hit the CB accurately with it or get a new shaft.

pj
chgo

I can play quite well with a vey crooked stick. Many people simply can not.

Tom In Cincy
12-03-2012, 10:06 PM
The first few times you used it, maybe. After that you'd either figure out how to hit the CB accurately with it or get a new shaft.

pj
chgo

Pat, long time,

I was trying to remember using an old crooked house cue when I first started playing in the 60s and remembered miscuing off the rail..... does this ring a bell?

Those old house cues were 'conical' tapered from the ferrule straight back to the joint. My first pro-taper cue was 13 1/4 inch straight back for 8 inches and then the conical to the joint.

I don't remember seeing a player with a good stroke and properly chalked and shaped tip, miscue playing the cue ball off the rail.

I do remember doing this when I was very new to the game. I thought it was the cue's fault.... but I learned different.

Patrick Johnson
12-03-2012, 10:35 PM
Pat, long time
Hi Tom, way too long! Good to see you here - how's Sactown treating you?

Tom In Cincy
12-04-2012, 10:43 AM
Hi Tom, way too long! Good to see you here - how's Sactown treating you?

Great Pat, thanks for asking...

dsoriano
12-04-2012, 01:00 PM
Well I received exactly what I was looking for and more! I got the profound definition of a pro-taper, and the proper term of a break cue taper (conical taper) but of course now I’m left with more questions…………………….
What in the world is a European Taper? And now a term I have never heard of before, a siffish taper

dr_dave
12-04-2012, 01:45 PM
Well I received exactly what I was looking for and more! I got the profound definition of a pro-taper, and the proper term of a break cue taper (conical taper) but of course now I’m left with more questions…………………….
What in the world is a European Taper? And now a term I have never heard of before, a siffish taperHere's a description of both types, from Wikipedia's pool shaft page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cue_stick#Shaft):
Shafts are made with various tapers, the two most common being the pro taper and the European taper. The pro taper has the same diameter from the tip to 30–35 cm (12-14 inches) toward the joint, at which point it begins to widen. The European taper widens continually and smoothly from the ferrule toward the joint. Despite their names, the continually sloping European taper is found in most North American bar and house cues, and not all professional players prefer a straight pro taper on their custom, two-piece models.

Regards,
Dave

AtLarge
12-04-2012, 03:10 PM
... It might be a good idea if the forum could add the post #'s when someone does a quote so readers could easily go back & read the whole quote if & when needed. ...

When you quote a post, the first line of the boxed-in quote says "Originally Posted by ..." and then gives the original poster's name followed by a bent arrow. Click on that bent arrow and you will be taken to the original post.

ENGLISH!
12-04-2012, 07:57 PM
When you quote a post, the first line of the boxed-in quote says "Originally Posted by ..." and then gives the original poster's name followed by a bent arrow. Click on that bent arrow and you will be taken to the original post.

Thanks Sir,

You are always helpful.

Thanks again,