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ledrums
05-07-2006, 05:37 PM
I just recently started practicing straight pool. I've put in about 3 hrs worth and most surprising, my high run is only 16. I even had a couple of embarrassing 1-3 ball runs. Talk about a game of precision! I was starting to run a consistent 14-15 balls in a row but my break ball and cue ball's final resting position needs work. I'm hooked on this game now. On a side note, after I practiced straight pool, I ended my practice session playing 2 racks of 8-ball (by myself) and ran 2 tables straight. I think after playing 14.1, position in 8-ball seemed ridiculously easy! I'm excited! Just thought I'd share.

Mike_Mason
05-07-2006, 05:57 PM
I don't remember where I heard it...or read it...and it was some time ago...but the thought made an impression on me...that if you can run 16 balls then you can run 100...or 527 maybe...

The reasoning is that in order to run 16 balls in straight pool then you have to run a full rack...set up a break shot...and make that break shot...now all you have to do is do it again...

And again...and again...etc...

Good luck with your game...

MacGyver
05-07-2006, 06:38 PM
I disagree... each rack is different.

While if you could duplicate the exact rack and play it the same 16 is the same as 150, in reality that isnt the case.

Not to mention that if *any* shot is like 95% to make in that rack, that that means eventually you are going to hang that shot and end your run.

I mean, I agree that in theory as long as you can run a rack and give yourself a decent breakshot and then run that rack you should be able to run 50000 balls in a row, in practice that is rarely the case.

You get a multitude of shots in each rack and unless you excell at all of them you cant run very high.

Perhaps it would be better to say "If you can run *any* rack and setup a breakshot then you can run 500 balls"... But just running an easy rack or two doesnt mean you are ready for 500.

cueball1950
05-07-2006, 07:14 PM
The old saying goes is that all games of pool are derived from 14.1......mike

Cameron Smith
05-07-2006, 07:35 PM
Straight Pool is more of a cerebral game than any other pool game in that knowledge more than anything is what makes a great straight pool player. Its knowing what shot to play and when to play it. I know some great 9 ball players who have a hell of a time trying to run balls in 14.1.

Cameron Smith
05-07-2006, 07:39 PM
The old saying goes is that all games of pool are derived from 14.1......mike

Actually I recently learned that this is not entirely accurate. The very first game of pool was a game called "61 pool", where the object of the game was to score 61 points or more, where each ball counted for its number value. It is kinda of like Rotation only you can pot any ball you like. It's kinda fun in a ego stroking kind of way. The only thing that will keep you from running a ridiculous amount of racks is coming up dry on the break.

The first world pool championship was in held in the 1870's I believe and they played "61 Pool", it was won by a French Canadian Cyrille Dion.

Just thought you and anyone else might be interested in this piece of history.

smittie1984
05-07-2006, 07:41 PM
I'm taking a great liking to straight pool. Unfortunatly in Atlanta it is hard to come by people who play it. And on top of that people who excell at it.

I played a man at "The Pool Room" in Duluth one afternoon. He had to go to 100 and I had to go to 20. The final score was 100+ to 4. Me being 4 of course. After a few racks he ran 56balls straight. I learned a lot while I was sitting down there adding lines to a peice of paper.

Other than that person I have yet to see anyone really play it. 1 pocket is getting bigger here in Georgia but still no 14.1.

RiverCity
05-07-2006, 07:54 PM
Straight pool is the ultimate game. It teaches patterns, touch and precision. If you can play straights well, you should be able to play any game well.
I grew up playing straights with a buddy of mine, and we would place bets on individual racks (to run out and get a break shot to open the next rack). Seems to help thinking of the game in smaller bites. And dont think you have to have very high runs to excel, yes 80 ball runs are great.... but a consistant 15-20 with good safety play will win you alot of games.
Then when your pattern play and forethought get better the higher runs will happen.
Chuck

Gerry
05-08-2006, 03:24 AM
Hopefully more people like yourself will pick the game up again. I was lucky to play out of a room where you were "ranked" by who you beat, and how many balls you could run. Remember, there is no "perfect" way to play 14.1. There are repeating patterns you will come across after playing a while, and your style will emerge eventually.

Since you are just starting, I'll tell you how I was taught the game, and maybe it will help. If you don't have a good teacher, you can learn from Accu-stats (I like Rempe, and Sigel instructional), and asking questions here. It's just a little more difficult when your teacher isn't right there.

1. To continue the game, you need break shots, so, throw 4 balls out on the table with the cueball at random, and get on a break ball. Don't cheat and make an easy break ball because in a real game you WILL use weird breakers at times, and this will help you. I used to do this drill for hours.

2. keep notes!.....this will tell you what you need to work on, and why your runs end. If you miss the same shots, or have a leave you don't know what to do with, ask here.

3. Practice break shots......start with the simple, and obvious ones, then move to the not so obvious ones. Start around the rack. Shoot the breaker, and check your results. If you don't like them, try again til you do. As you can see I didn't blend this in with #1. I look at them as 2 different parts that I like to work on separately.......getting on a breaker vs shooting breakers.

Looks simple, but working on these 3 will get you a long way in the beginning. Later on when you are running 20, you can start searching more into the theory of long runs.

Have fun, Gerry

lfigueroa
05-08-2006, 04:51 AM
I know that it's the PC thing to say to encourage the aspiring player,
but personally, I don't think it's really true where the leather meets the ball.

In my experience, a 14.1 run is a series of problems that you have to solve
with knowledge and skills. There are spells during a run when you will see
a series of simple problems that you're familiar with and can solve with
even just mediocre skills. But as the run lengthens, you will inevitably
see a wider variety of problems, and more and more esoteric ones that
require more obscure knowledge and skills. It might be a long stop shot, a
thin cut that still requires much cue ball control, bumping balls open
without tying them up, creating break balls, or using balls up table for a
break.

I've seen many players that have been playing for years and years and have
never gotten past being 20 ball runners and never will. Either their basic
skills are lacking and limit the variety of shots they can execute and/or
their knowledge is deficient and limits the number and type of problems they
can solve. They just don't understand the game well enough to ever pocket
more than a couple of dozen successive balls -- more thorough the grace of
God -- than any other factor.

Lou Figueroa


I don't remember where I heard it...or read it...and it was some time ago...but the thought made an impression on me...that if you can run 16 balls then you can run 100...or 527 maybe...

The reasoning is that in order to run 16 balls in straight pool then you have to run a full rack...set up a break shot...and make that break shot...now all you have to do is do it again...

And again...and again...etc...

Good luck with your game...

Salamander
05-08-2006, 07:54 AM
I agree with Lou and some others....14.1 is much more difficult than it looks. I remember a friend of mine that played excellent 9-ball and when told the rules and strategy of straight he replied, "what an easy game, you mean I can shoot any ball I want?...you should run out every time". Well, suffice it to say, he could rarely get through a rack of balls. I know many good 9-ball players that don't play very good straight pool.

The game is really about management, knowing when to take certain shots and really reading the pack. In 9 ball you can play zones, but in straight you really need to play close position, a fraction of an inch here or there, can be the difference between running a bunch of balls or stopping at 5.

One of my favorite accustats tapes is one where Zuglan plays Dallas West. Dallas ends up winning in two innings (I think?), he plays such beautiful position, surgically opening up a few balls from the pack and artfully picking off the balls. One gets the feeling watching him play, that he will not leave the table on a miss. If necessary he would leave the table on a safe and his opponent would not have a shot.

Along with one pocket, straight pool is so incredibly diverse and interesting. I get to where I don't even want to play nineball any more.

Regards,

Doug

Steve Lipsky
05-08-2006, 08:25 AM
I know that it's the PC thing to say to encourage the aspiring player,
but personally, I don't think it's really true where the leather meets the ball.

In my experience, a 14.1 run is a series of problems that you have to solve
with knowledge and skills. There are spells during a run when you will see
a series of simple problems that you're familiar with and can solve with
even just mediocre skills. But as the run lengthens, you will inevitably
see a wider variety of problems, and more and more esoteric ones that
require more obscure knowledge and skills. It might be a long stop shot, a
thin cut that still requires much cue ball control, bumping balls open
without tying them up, creating break balls, or using balls up table for a
break.

I've seen many players that have been playing for years and years and have
never gotten past being 20 ball runners and never will. Either their basic
skills are lacking and limit the variety of shots they can execute and/or
their knowledge is deficient and limits the number and type of problems they
can solve. They just don't understand the game well enough to ever pocket
more than a couple of dozen successive balls -- more thorough the grace of
God -- than any other factor.

Lou Figueroa


Lou, it's great to see you posting! I remember you from the old RSB days and hope you continue to share your insights with this board.

- Steve

fred_in_hoboken
05-08-2006, 08:25 AM
One of my favorite accustats tapes is one where Zuglan plays Dallas West. Dallas ends up winning in two innings (I think?), he plays such beautiful position, surgically opening up a few balls from the pack and artfully picking off the balls. One gets the feeling watching him play, that he will not leave the table on a miss. If necessary he would leave the table on a safe and his opponent would not have a shot.

Yes- it was two innings.

West had a near perfect opening break. Zuglan tried a combo out of the rack. West runs 57, ending the run with a miss on a masse. Grady Matthews was commentating, calling out West for missing on a "circus shot". Zuglan runs 48, missing a combo. West then runs 93 and out, making it look easy.

While the pool is great, the commentary on that match is fun too. It had Grady, Johnny Ervolino and Bill Staton

Snapshot9
05-08-2006, 11:59 AM
to the extent that newer players have to be told and shown a problem and told exactly how to solve it before they ever attempt anything. It seems that the initiative for the sport has shifted from a player's responsibility for
problem solving to other means away from them. No game in Pool is that difficult IF you have a good brain and logic skills. Everyithing seems complex when you first approach it, and really simple after you master it. What matters is the journey to get there. It is very nice to have so many different sources to get there, but the ULTIMATE responsibility is still the
player's.

Gee whiz, if you just apply the 7 basic questions for 'Scientific theories' for proof (and they are real hard), like what, when, who, how, etc.. to any problem in Pool, you can reach a conclusion or solution for it. Having knowledge of basic geometic principles helps somewhat. I just don't see
what is so frickin hard about knowing what upper left english will do for the cue ball or what path it will take, or whether more or less english is needed. Quantum Mechanics is hard, Pool is not, it is simple logic, and cause and effect.

zeeder
05-08-2006, 12:02 PM
I wish I lived a little closer to St. Louis so I could play in the Biliard Bullpen's straight pool league. :( I love straight pool but rarely play it because no one around here plays it.

supergreenman
05-08-2006, 12:27 PM
to the extent that newer players have to be told and shown a problem and told exactly how to solve it before they ever attempt anything. It seems that the initiative for the sport has shifted from a player's responsibility for
problem solving to other means away from them. No game in Pool is that difficult IF you have a good brain and logic skills. Everyithing seems complex when you first approach it, and really simple after you master it. What matters is the journey to get there. It is very nice to have so many different sources to get there, but the ULTIMATE responsibility is still the
player's.

Gee whiz, if you just apply the 7 basic questions for 'Scientific theories' for proof (and they are real hard), like what, when, who, how, etc.. to any problem in Pool, you can reach a conclusion or solution for it. Having knowledge of basic geometic principles helps somewhat. I just don't see
what is so frickin hard about knowing what upper left english will do for the cue ball or what path it will take, or whether more or less english is needed. Quantum Mechanics is hard, Pool is not, it is simple logic, and cause and effect.

Scott, I think you raise some valid points, although I think to say that players now are looking to be shown what to do instead of learning by trial and error and logic is somewhat inaccurate.

I think the difference today is that all the information is out there for the taking, where as before people had to learn by "taking thier knocks" or "paying thier dues"

I think the desire to excell at cue sports is there for a lot of people who may not be able to spend all day every day in the pool room so these people are aquiring the knowledge by studying books, videos and what not.

That doesn't take away from the fact they still have to spend the time on the table putting into practice what they have learned. We tell our children to learn from our mistakes. Wouldn't it be logical that the same principle apply to pool. If the knowledge is there, why re-invent the wheel.

For what it's worth, I've spent hours on the table trying to figure out specific shots, I'm sure I'm not the only one.

unknownpro
05-08-2006, 01:29 PM
to the extent that newer players have to be told and shown a problem and told exactly how to solve it before they ever attempt anything. It seems that the initiative for the sport has shifted from a player's responsibility for
problem solving to other means away from them. No game in Pool is that difficult IF you have a good brain and logic skills. Everyithing seems complex when you first approach it, and really simple after you master it. What matters is the journey to get there. It is very nice to have so many different sources to get there, but the ULTIMATE responsibility is still the
player's.

Gee whiz, if you just apply the 7 basic questions for 'Scientific theories' for proof (and they are real hard), like what, when, who, how, etc.. to any problem in Pool, you can reach a conclusion or solution for it. Having knowledge of basic geometic principles helps somewhat. I just don't see
what is so frickin hard about knowing what upper left english will do for the cue ball or what path it will take, or whether more or less english is needed. Quantum Mechanics is hard, Pool is not, it is simple logic, and cause and effect.
I disagree. Quantum mechanics is easy. Who has "mastered" pool?

Most great players started playing at a young age and have forgotten the vast amounts of time spent practicing, playing, and watching and learning from other players.

I agree that the journey is what counts, but most people don't want to travel years down the wrong path, they all want shortcuts!

Now I've got to go finish my time machine.

unknownpro

mikepage
05-08-2006, 02:13 PM
I disagree. Quantum mechanics is easy. Who has "mastered" pool?[...]

I'd say pool and quantum mechanics are about the same amount hard.

mike page <-- gets paid to do QM
fargo

renard
05-08-2006, 02:22 PM
Hopefully more people like yourself will pick the game up again. I was lucky to play out of a room where you were "ranked" by who you beat, and how many balls you could run. Remember, there is no "perfect" way to play 14.1. There are repeating patterns you will come across after playing a while, and your style will emerge eventually.

Since you are just starting, I'll tell you how I was taught the game, and maybe it will help. If you don't have a good teacher, you can learn from Accu-stats (I like Rempe, and Sigel instructional), and asking questions here. It's just a little more difficult when your teacher isn't right there.

1. To continue the game, you need break shots, so, throw 4 balls out on the table with the cueball at random, and get on a break ball. Don't cheat and make an easy break ball because in a real game you WILL use weird breakers at times, and this will help you. I used to do this drill for hours.

2. keep notes!.....this will tell you what you need to work on, and why your runs end. If you miss the same shots, or have a leave you don't know what to do with, ask here.

3. Practice break shots......start with the simple, and obvious ones, then move to the not so obvious ones. Start around the rack. Shoot the breaker, and check your results. If you don't like them, try again til you do. As you can see I didn't blend this in with #1. I look at them as 2 different parts that I like to work on separately.......getting on a breaker vs shooting breakers.

Looks simple, but working on these 3 will get you a long way in the beginning. Later on when you are running 20, you can start searching more into the theory of long runs.

Have fun, Gerry

Great stuff Gerry I'll try to keep that in mind. I thought I would add to what you have put on here.

Referring to my wei table. First the 2, 3, 13, 12, and 10 ball must be cleared out first. Because your break on the cluster will send balls most likely in the direction of those rails. The 1, and 5 are balls I would use to to get position to break out the cluster (11 breakout ball.) The 15 ball is my insurance ball that will stay put until the final cluster is nudged apart.

Feel free to add or correct...

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http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

ledrums
05-08-2006, 02:28 PM
I forgot to mention I'm stuck practicing on a bar box. I know that makes pocketing the balls easier, but I think the congestion factor is a little more difficult. I'm hoping this will make my precision even more important. Unfortunately, I don't have anyone to play/practice against. I think I'm going to order Capelle's book on 14.1. I have a few of his others and I find them very informative.

mikepage
05-08-2006, 02:28 PM
I don't remember where I heard it...or read it...and it was some time ago...but the thought made an impression on me...that if you can run 16 balls then you can run 100...or 527 maybe...

The reasoning is that in order to run 16 balls in straight pool then you have to run a full rack...set up a break shot...and make that break shot...now all you have to do is do it again...[...]

Here's some data I posted in RSB five years ago. My high run was 50 at the time. It illustrates that for me the statistical chance that I'd run 100 given that I spent an hour a day doing nothing but busting up a rack and trying to get a high run was pretty small--It'd likely take me over 150 years of trying!

That assumes I nether improved nor died during that time.


************

Here's some data for me that illustrate the break ball
bottleneck. Over the past four months, I've played 1460 innings of equal
offense (Open break and try to run 20 14.1 style). Here are the possible
results (0 - 20) and the number of times I've achieved each.

0 26
1 32
2 57
3 64
4 50
5 68
6 62
7 69
8 78
9 83
10 61
11 79
12 76
13 91
14 155
15 139
16 41
17 26
18 25
19 21
20 157

So 26 times I missed with bih in the kitchen [:-(] and 157 times I ran all 20.

91 times I missed while shooting at the key ball. 155 times I missed the
break shot. And 139 times I either failed to open up the pack, got stuck
in the pack or got so excited about the great break shot that I missed the
next ball.

My percentage of running 14 balls starting from bih with all balls on the
table is about 39%. But my percentage running 14 balls that includes
opening up a new rack is much lower. My percentage getting to 20 given
that I got to 6 is 14.3%, or about 1 in 7 tries. This is my true
percantage for running a rack.

So if I start with 9 balls spread out on the table, here are the number of
attempts I would probably need to achieve the following runs once.

run
___
14 -- 7 attempts (once in 0.5 hours of playing)
28 -- 49 attempts (once in 3 hours of playing)
42 -- 342 attempts (once in 23 hours of playing)
56 -- 2,389 attempts (Once in 160 hours of playing)
70 -- 16,700 attempts (Once in 1100 hours of playing)
84 -- 117,000 attempts (once in 7800 hours of playing)
98 -- 816,000 attempts (once in 54400 hours of playing)
112 -- 5,700,000 attempts ( once in 380,000 hours of playing)

My high run of 50 makes sense in light of this. If I tried for an hour a
day, I should run 56 about once every 5 months. But notice that I would
run 98 only about once every 150 years!!! So the saying that if you can
run 50, you can run 100 -- it just ain't true.

--
mike page
fargo

ajrack
05-09-2006, 12:05 AM
I am almost 60 yrs old and I was lucky enough to get to play or watch , Jimmy Moore, Irving Crane, Joe Balsis, Jimmy Caras and a few others. The general knowledge at the time was ... if you could run about 3 to 4 racks once in a while you had the skills to run many more. This seemed to be the consensus of most of these players. (and, If you could play "50 no count", you WERE a straight pool player!!!)
By the time you get to this level of play, you have learned to take care of the problem balls and have learned to set up key and break balls. Nowadays , I love to set up positions of balls and show those who haven't played much straight pool how it is supposed to work.

Gerry
05-09-2006, 04:07 AM
My high run of 50 makes sense in light of this. If I tried for an hour a
day, I should run 56 about once every 5 months. But notice that I would
run 98 only about once every 150 years!!! So the saying that if you can
run 50, you can run 100 -- it just ain't true.

--
mike page
fargo[/QUOTE]

That's a hell of a lot of data Mike!:D......maybe the statement "if you can run 50 on a regular basis" should have been the disclaimer. Also I feel the learning curve of what NOT to do when running balls is the biggest determining factor on lengthening runs. Since we all are constantly learning, that factor alone carries much clout. Also on any given day you might feel great, or like crap, or just read a good piece of info you can use.....etc

So, like you said....if you never learned, or changed anything....your right, but that never happens in the real world...IMO

Gerry

Gerry
05-09-2006, 04:09 AM
Referring to my wei table. First the 2, 3, 13, 12, and 10 ball must be cleared out first. Because your break on the cluster will send balls most likely in the direction of those rails. The 1, and 5 are balls I would use to to get position to break out the cluster (11 breakout ball.) The 15 ball is my insurance ball that will stay put until the final cluster is nudged apart.

Feel free to add or correct...

I wouldn't say "correct"....I'd say here's my way of opening them up:

First the 13...clears a rail ball/opens a pocket for the 2 at the same time....with position on the 3.

Next the 3...hitting the bottom of the 6 so you don't go up table. With the other balls surrounding the cluster, your almost sure to get a shot, and it seems high percentage.

Not sure after that since we just went into the balls!:D Fun stuff though...

Gerry

lfigueroa
05-09-2006, 05:49 AM
Hi Steve, thanks for the kind words. How you hitting em? I was hoping on seeing you in NJ for the 14.1 event which I was planning on going to spectate, but a conflicting trip has come up.

After watching Bob's 14.1 event at the DCC (and taking my miserable three attempts) I became reinspired to play your game and have been concentrating on 14.1 the last four months. The immersion therapy has done wonders for my game and my stroke. As I'm sure you know, you just can't run balls with a bad stroke. If I'm not setting up right, running even two racks becomes next to impossible. That forces some introspection and I then discover all kinds of little things that could use a tweak here or there. It always amazes me how small adjustments can take you from only running a rack or two to consistently running six or seven.

There's a young lad I mentor and he asked me what he could do to improve his game and I told him, 'Practice 14.1 with the following mind set: each shot you miss is a sign post as to what you don't know and need to work on." After a few months of this he tells me he's now playing pretty sporty.

Like the title of the thread says, "what a game!!"

Lou Figueroa



Lou, it's great to see you posting! I remember you from the old RSB days and hope you continue to share your insights with this board.

- Steve

tedkaufman
05-09-2006, 06:17 AM
Yes- it was two innings.

West had a near perfect opening break. Zuglan tried a combo out of the rack. West runs 57, ending the run with a miss on a masse. Grady Matthews was commentating, calling out West for missing on a "circus shot". Zuglan runs 48, missing a combo. West then runs 93 and out, making it look easy.

While the pool is great, the commentary on that match is fun too. It had Grady, Johnny Ervolino and Bill Staton

How's this for tough luck: Mike Zuglan, in the US Open loses the lag against Mike Sigel, by like 1/4". He makes a decent opening break, but leaves Sigel a long shot from the top rail. Sigel makes it, and proceeds to run 150 and out. That was Mike Zuglan's first lose.

Next he plays Ray Martin. This time he wins the lag. Ray breaks and leaves Zuglan a shot. Mike then runs 148--nearly replicating what Sigel just did to him--before trying a combination shot I'm sure he still regrets. He had at least one more open shot, though position for his final ball would have been a flyer. Instead he chose a ball in the stack that had to throw a bit. It didn't throw and Mike didn't get his 150 and out.

His next game, against Dallas, he wins the lag. Dallas makes a textbook perfect break. Zuglan tries a complicated and, yes, in retrospect, ill advised combination from the stack. He could have taken a foul and put the cueball behind the rack; that really was his only other option. Anyway, from there, Dallas goes out in two innings, sandwiched around a 48 ball inning for Zuglan.

So imagine, Zuglan loses two games in which he only missed one makable shot. Basically, one miss and he's eliminated. How's that for tough?

jsp
05-09-2006, 06:48 AM
...I wouldn't say "correct"....I'd say here's my way of opening them up:

First the 13...clears a rail ball/opens a pocket for the 2 at the same time....with position on the 3.

Next the 3...hitting the bottom of the 6 so you don't go up table. With the other balls surrounding the cluster, your almost sure to get a shot, and it seems high percentage.

Not sure after that since we just went into the balls!:D Fun stuff though...

Gerry
Take my opinions lightly because I'm a total novice in straight pool...but...

Hitting the 3 to the top-left corner after the 13 doesn't look like a good idea. First, I don't think the angle is natural enough to clip the 6...you'd probably need to hit it with significant follow. Also, I think it would be better to get rid of the 15 on the end rail, since that can pose a problem in the future.

I personally would hit the 13 with soft follow for position on the end rail to shoot the 15 in the top-left corner. Then follow the 15 to give myself an angle on the 3 to the bottom-left corner. Then, I would hit the 3 with slight draw to go into the right half (bottom half in the wei table's perspective) of the 6 such that I can play position for the 2 or 1, or maybe 5 worst case.

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rikdee
05-09-2006, 07:57 AM
Very good observations. You are correct in your run assumptions. We all read of the 100 ball runs of countless of the board's members, but a consistent 20 or 25 is beating anyone but top pros and there are times when that level of play would win there as well. I've played for nearly 50 years, have had pro much tutoring, and have spent many a day playing and observing 14.1.

Rich R.
05-09-2006, 08:51 AM
a consistent 20 or 25 is beating anyone but top pros and there are times when that level of play would win there as well.
In many matches, it is not how many balls you run at one time, it is how well you play safe, when your run is done, that counts. :D