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View Full Version : When did Efren FIRST come to the USA?


BillPorter
05-08-2006, 05:27 PM
I was having a friendly debate with a guy in the pool hall today about when Efren first came to this country. Any of you guys have a definite answer to the question? An answer you would be willing to wager on? Thanks in advance for any help.

nibrobus
05-08-2006, 05:29 PM
1985 Houston Red's Tournament

Nostroke
05-08-2006, 05:52 PM
1985 Houston Red's Tournament

That certainly is the common belief. I think you may get an offer of a wager though-I dont think Bill would have posted the question had he thought that was the answer. Of course I'm just guessing.

Bob Jewett
05-08-2006, 06:00 PM
1985 Houston Red's Tournament
Do you mean the one that was won by Cesar Morales? ;)

BillPorter
05-08-2006, 06:05 PM
That certainly is the common belief. I think you may get an offer of a wager though-I dont think Bill would have posted the question had he thought that was the answer. Of course I'm just guessing.
An astute observation, Nostroke!

Only ERO's
05-08-2006, 06:16 PM
From what I have been told, Efren originally came to Rochester, MN. A good friend of his was here telling everybody about this world class player from the Phillipines that could rob all the Americans. There were two Phillipino brothers (Nate and Efren(sp.) Ramirez) that convinced the owner of Chick's billiards into fronting some money to bring Efren over from the Phillipines.

This is the beginning to the story that I have heard. I could probably look more into it as comments come up. I know about 3-4 people that remember Efren firing the spot shots in without hitting the rail in the basement of Chicks.

Titleist04
05-08-2006, 06:20 PM
1985 Willard's Open

BillPorter
05-08-2006, 06:22 PM
From what I have been told, Efren originally came to Rochester, MN. A good friend of his was here telling everybody about this world class player from the Phillipines that could rob all the Americans. There were two Phillipino brothers (Nate and Efren(sp.) Ramirez) that convinced the owner of Chick's billiards into fronting some money to bring Efren over from the Phillipines.

This is the beginning to the story that I have heard. I could probably look more into it as comments come up. I know about 3-4 people that remember Efren firing the spot shots in without hitting the rail in the basement of Chicks.
Now that sounds like some very good information to my untutored ears (eyes?). The only question is what year was it when he first came.

Titleist04
05-08-2006, 06:24 PM
He found a sponsor in 1979 and made his first trip abroad to Japan, where he won $3,000 hustling and playing in tournaments. Six years later he made his first trip to America. He played in and won the Red 9-Ball Open in Houston, Texas, which netted him a few thousand dollars. Then over the next three weeks, playing big money against all comers, Efren won $81,000. But he never saw his promised 50% share. His financier stole the money.

BillPorter
05-08-2006, 06:31 PM
He found a sponsor in 1979 and made his first trip abroad to Japan, where he won $3,000 hustling and playing in tournaments. Six years later he made his first trip to America. He played in and won the Red 9-Ball Open in Houston, Texas, which netted him a few thousand dollars. Then over the next three weeks, playing big money against all comers, Efren won $81,000. But he never saw his promised 50% share. His financier stole the money.
The 1985 Red's tournament? I hate to hear he was stiffed for the money, but can't say I'm surprised. Didn't Mike Lebron sort of take him under his wing for a while?

Titleist04
05-08-2006, 06:33 PM
In 1986, he returned to America at the invitation of another financier, a Filipino from Chicago. This man also cheated Efren. In 1987, he had another financier, but they did not get along. In 1988, Efren was financed by an American named Archibald Mitchell. This time Efren finally made money. It was about this time that Efren teamed up with long-time friend, Rolando Vicente, his manager until this day.

Gerry
05-09-2006, 04:28 AM
I'm as big an Efren fan as anyone, but how do you "fire in" a spot shot, and not hit a rail?.....maybe slow spin one in?......but fire?

Gerry

BillPorter
05-09-2006, 05:10 AM
I'm as big an Efren fan as anyone, but how do you "fire in" a spot shot, and not hit a rail?.....maybe slow spin one in?......but fire?

Gerry
Got my attention too....:eek:

Colin Colenso
05-09-2006, 05:27 AM
I'm as big an Efren fan as anyone, but how do you "fire in" a spot shot, and not hit a rail?.....maybe slow spin one in?......but fire?

Gerry

I assume it's a swerve / masse stroke.

Cornerman
05-09-2006, 05:30 AM
I was having a friendly debate with a guy in the pool hall today about when Efren first came to this country. Any of you guys have a definite answer to the question? An answer you would be willing to wager on? Thanks in advance for any help.

I've always assumed he came to the States before he won the 1985 Reds even.

Fred

CantEverWin
05-09-2006, 05:36 AM
A buddy of mine is good friends with Erfren. I'll ask him the next time we speak. Probably within the next few days.

BillPorter
05-09-2006, 05:40 AM
I've always assumed he came to the States before he won the 1985 Reds even.

Fred
Yes, most people cite the 1985 Red's tournament as Efren's first trip to the States, but some think he may have made a trip or two before that.

BillPorter
05-09-2006, 05:42 AM
A buddy of mine is good friends with Erfren. I'll ask him the next time we speak. Probably within the next few days.
That would surely be a good source of information! I'm sure that several people on the board would appreciate an accurate answer to the question.

BillPorter
05-09-2006, 05:59 AM
I've always assumed he came to the States before he won the 1985 Reds even.

Fred
Fred, in the book, "Billiards" by John Grissim, Grissim mentions playing Efren in the Phillipines on a trip he had taken "a few years back." Since the book has a 1979 copyright date, you have to assume that he played Efren no later than 1975 or 1976. At that time, Grissim was told that Efren was the second ranked player in the Phillipines. Maybe Parica was number 1? Anyway, Grissim certainly knew his way around the world of pool and surely passed along this information about super players in Manila to people in this country. It seems plausible that sometime between 1978 and 1984 Efren was brought over here to play a match or two. But maybe not. I just threw the question out to see what might surface.

Grady
05-09-2006, 08:15 AM
People forget that I won the One Pocket at Red's in 85', 83' too for that matter. Most memorable to me was Buddy beating Efren 10 ahead for $10,000 in about an hour. You can't say that Efren robbed everybody. At that time I would play anyone in the world One Pocket but there were no takers around Red's.

BillPorter
05-09-2006, 08:43 AM
People forget that I won the One Pocket at Red's in 85', 83' too for that matter. Most memorable to me was Buddy beating Efren 10 ahead for $10,000 in about an hour. You can't say that Efren robbed everybody. At that time I would play anyone in the world One Pocket but there were no takers around Red's.
Grady, I have a photo or two of you at Red's. I have to scan the negatives, but when I finish (Mike Haines sent me about 250 negatives of shots taken at Red's between 1983 and 1985), I'll put the pics up in one of my Smugmug gallaries.

Nostroke
05-09-2006, 08:51 AM
People forget that I won the One Pocket at Red's in 85', 83' too for that matter. Most memorable to me was Buddy beating Efren 10 ahead for $10,000 in about an hour. You can't say that Efren robbed everybody. At that time I would play anyone in the world One Pocket but there were no takers around Red's.

It has been said more than once that after Efren won $40K or so under an assumed name in a foreign land, some of the regulars were starting to get a bit ornery and Efren's backers decided to give a bit back for safety reasons. Buddy was the fortunate recipient.

I have no idea if this is so but i would guess it a possibility.

Only ERO's
05-09-2006, 08:55 AM
I have heard that too about Efren donating that $10k back to Buddy. The other thing to take into consideration is that it is only one match. Buddy might have been playing lights out at that point and Efren may have been off. All that I was saying is that nobody could stay with Efren back then, and I believe it is still the same now!

EL'nino
05-09-2006, 09:09 AM
I have heard that too about Efren donating that $10k back to Buddy. The other thing to take into consideration is that it is only one match. Buddy might have been playing lights out at that point and Efren may have been off. All that I was saying is that nobody could stay with Efren back then, and I believe it is still the same now!
If sombody wanted to lose against Buddy in the 80's all they had to do was play..... the losing part would've happened all by it self.

eales
05-09-2006, 10:00 AM
I have a scan of a long article that appeared in a Sunday Magazine section of the Times Journal in February, 1983. It concerned the newly crowned champion of the Phillipines, Efren Reyes. The article contains the following:

"The only inkling we have that our newly crowned champon is of world-class ability is the result of his one and only stint in an international competition the invitationals in Japan, in which he placed overall second in the tournament which required players to play three different games - 14.1, nine-ball, and rotation. He topped the nine-ball phase of the tournament."

It makes no mention of any other trips out of the country, which doesn't rule out the possiblity of trips just to gamble.

Jim Eales

freddy the beard
05-09-2006, 10:05 AM
It has been said more than once that after Efren won $40K or so under an assumed name in a foreign land, some of the regulars were starting to get a bit ornery and Efren's backers decided to give a bit back for safety reasons. Buddy was the fortunate recipient.

I have no idea if this is so but i would guess it a possibility.

Efren's coterie at Red's was about 15 to 20 Filipinos. Efren was in for about 10% if that. The idea that they would give back 10k just to cool people out is absolutely ridiculous. They were all gangsters themselves and wouldn't give anybody the sweat off their n*ts. If heistmen had come in with shotguns I dont believe those Filipinos would have given up the cash. Where on earth did that story originate? BTW, after robbing Effy that one set of 10 ball, Buddy never played him 10 ball again.
the Beard

Nostroke
05-09-2006, 10:14 AM
Efren's coterie at Red's was about 15 to 20 Filipinos. Efren was in for about 10% if that. The idea that they would give back 10k just to cool people out is absolutely ridiculous. They were all gangsters themselves and wouldn't give anybody the sweat off their n*ts. If heistmen had come in with shotguns I dont believe those Filipinos would have given up the cash. Where on earth did that story originate? BTW, after robbing Effy that one set of 10 ball, Buddy never played him 10 ball again.
the Beard

I dont think a buncha tiny filipinos would feel all that tough in Texas. I dont think a buncha tough rednecks would feel all that safe makin a score at some scruffy pool room in Manila either.

It may or may not be true but it certainly isnt ridiculous in and of itself.

jsp
05-09-2006, 10:18 AM
Efren's coterie at Red's was about 15 to 20 Filipinos. Efren was in for about 10% if that. The idea that they would give back 10k just to cool people out is absolutely ridiculous. They were all gangsters themselves and wouldn't give anybody the sweat off their n*ts. If heistmen had come in with shotguns I dont believe those Filipinos would have given up the cash. Where on earth did that story originate?
Don't mean to stir the pot, but this is where it was originally posted...

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=350138&postcount=10

I like the "sweat off their n*ts" quote BTW. :p

JoeyInCali
05-09-2006, 10:26 AM
I have a scan of a long article that appeared in a Sunday Magazine section of the Times Journal in February, 1983. It concerned the newly crowned champion of the Phillipines, Efren Reyes. The article contains the following:

"The only inkling we have that our newly crowned champon is of world-class ability is the result of his one and only stint in an international competition the invitationals in Japan, in which he placed overall second in the tournament which required players to play three different games - 14.1, nine-ball, and rotation. He topped the nine-ball phase of the tournament."

It makes no mention of any other trips out of the country, which doesn't rule out the possiblity of trips just to gamble.

Jim Eales
He coudn't have. Efren could not get a US visa until he used Caesar Morales's passport.

JoeyInCali
05-09-2006, 10:28 AM
From what I have been told, Efren originally came to Rochester, MN. A good friend of his was here telling everybody about this world class player from the Phillipines that could rob all the Americans. There were two Phillipino brothers (Nate and Efren(sp.) Ramirez) that convinced the owner of Chick's billiards into fronting some money to bring Efren over from the Phillipines.

This is the beginning to the story that I have heard. I could probably look more into it as comments come up. I know about 3-4 people that remember Efren firing the spot shots in without hitting the rail in the basement of Chicks.
Are you sure it wasn't Jose Parica or Filipino Gene?:eek:

BillPorter
05-09-2006, 10:31 AM
Thanks much to all who have contributed to this thread. After reading all the posts, and after reading this very well done article ( http://www.margarita-station.com/efrenreyes.html ), I have concluded that 1985 was the very first time Efren was in this country. If anyone has evidence to the contrary, I'd be glad to hear it.

Nostroke
05-09-2006, 10:42 AM
Thanks much to all who have contributed to this thread. After reading all the posts, and after reading this very well done article ( http://www.margarita-station.com/efrenreyes.html ), I have concluded that 1985 was the very first time Efren was in this country. If anyone has evidence to the contrary, I'd be glad to hear it.

Well you faked me out-thought we were going to learn a little known fact here.

jsp
05-09-2006, 10:43 AM
I have a scan of a long article that appeared in a Sunday Magazine section of the Times Journal in February, 1983. It concerned the newly crowned champion of the Phillipines, Efren Reyes....
That article was posted here before and can be found here...

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=316971&postcount=54

Can you believe the shaft thickness of Efren's cue on the first page? Geez.

Only ERO's
05-09-2006, 11:18 AM
Are you sure it wasn't Jose Parica or Filipino Gene?:eek:


I will look into this tonight by making some phone calls to see what I can dig up. I will try to get as many specifics of stuff in Rochester as possible.

JoeyInCali
05-09-2006, 11:35 AM
That article was posted here before and can be found here...

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=316971&postcount=54

Can you believe the shaft thickness of Efren's cue on the first page? Geez.
That's going back, isn't it?
Efren maintains to this day Boy Bicol was the best player he ever saw.
He only tells this Pinoys of course. Boy Bicol's cueball control according to Efren was incredible. Efren said Boy lost a match one day. His backers thought he threw the match ( he was giving a huge spot of course ) . Efren said Boy just missed after taking a shot for granted. He was dead after that.

Bob Jewett
05-09-2006, 11:39 AM
... I know about 3-4 people that remember Efren firing the spot shots in without hitting the rail in the basement of Chicks.
I've heard about these legendary spot shots, so I tried to see what I could do.

The shot is to shoot a ball off the spot and stop the cue ball dead near the spot. I started with the cue ball by the side pocket, where the shot is not hard for most people. Next, I gradually moved the cue ball along the side rail towards the kitchen, which is where Efren is said to shoot the shot. I moved the cue ball about an inch at a time, and shot from the new position until I had made the shot a couple of times.

If the object ball is being cut to the right, you have to jack up and use right draw. The shot has to be hit firmly but not at warp speed. The farther up the table the cue ball gets, the more elevation you need. In about an hour of shooting, I got the cue ball to the first diamond up the table from the side pocket, or half way to the kitchen. At that point, you need about 30 degrees of elevation. I suspect that to make the shot from the kitchen, you will need about 45-60 degrees of elevation, and at that point the aiming is harder.

My conclusion is that the shot is not impossible, it requires a fair amount of elevation, and if anyone wants to try it for even money on a table they haven't played on before, they've got action.

Some people have reported that Efren shot the shot with a nearly level cue stick. Anyone who wants to try that has double action.

freddy the beard
05-09-2006, 12:23 PM
I dont think a buncha tiny filipinos would feel all that tough in Texas. I dont think a buncha tough rednecks would feel all that safe makin a score at some scruffy pool room in Manila either.

It may or may not be true but it certainly isnt ridiculous in and of itself.


Speaking from personal experience -- I was there the whole time, we must first note that Red's was a very, very large place. It contained a large disco, snack bar, many tables,etc. It would have taken a platoon of Navy Seals to stick the joint up. There were hundreds of people in there 24hrs a day. Plus, probably 20% of everyone in there also had a gun. Looking back however, a light just went off in my head. What does make sense, and what does answer all the strange circumstances of that match, is that Mr. Effie tossed those Filipino boys! They were betting gigantic money on him and were giving him very little of it. His end of the toss, if it was a toss, was probably more than he would have received from those f*ck-shops for winning the tournament and all that side action. My way of thinking is, if he didn't do it, he should have, to those cheap bast*rds. Jose Parica handled them a little differently, as soon as he got some bankroll he fired the backers and took all the bets himself. That also occurred in Texas.

the Beard

Grady
05-09-2006, 12:31 PM
Honestly, the things some people believe and say! Efren throw the match to Buddy? C'mon, for 7 or 8 years after Buddy beat him some close friends of Buddy's and mine offered to let Buddy play Efren for $100,000. I was there and privy to the attempted matching up. Then, for another two or three years they didn't play because Buddy wanted to play roll-out.
IMHO, in Buddy's salad days, he played as close to as perfect 9 Ball as it was possible for a human being to play. He was no sweetheart to play against either. In other words, an opponent could play perfect or near perfect and not win. Others tried playing him for money and all failed except maybe me and I only would win about 20 per cent of the time.
Buddy is another one who just wouldn't stand still for a beating either.

frankncali
05-09-2006, 12:36 PM
I've heard about these legendary spot shots, so I tried to see what I could do.

The shot is to shoot a ball off the spot and stop the cue ball dead near the spot. I started with the cue ball by the side pocket, where the shot is not hard for most people. Next, I gradually moved the cue ball along the side rail towards the kitchen, which is where Efren is said to shoot the shot. I moved the cue ball about an inch at a time, and shot from the new position until I had made the shot a couple of times.

If the object ball is being cut to the right, you have to jack up and use right draw. The shot has to be hit firmly but not at warp speed. The farther up the table the cue ball gets, the more elevation you need. In about an hour of shooting, I got the cue ball to the first diamond up the table from the side pocket, or half way to the kitchen. At that point, you need about 30 degrees of elevation. I suspect that to make the shot from the kitchen, you will need about 45-60 degrees of elevation, and at that point the aiming is harder.

My conclusion is that the shot is not impossible, it requires a fair amount of elevation, and if anyone wants to try it for even money on a table they haven't played on before, they've got action.

Some people have reported that Efren shot the shot with a nearly level cue stick. Anyone who wants to try that has double action.


No action from me but I did see Efren shoot it a few times. His cue was elevated. The cue ball stopped within a couple balls length after hitting the OB. It did not stop dead. Each time was different and I guess that should be expected. Interesting to me was that he shot it to both
corners.

merylane
05-09-2006, 12:55 PM
People forget that I won the One Pocket at Red's in 85', 83' too for that matter. Most memorable to me was Buddy beating Efren 10 ahead for $10,000 in about an hour. You can't say that Efren robbed everybody. At that time I would play anyone in the world One Pocket but there were no takers around Red's.


i was told by the end of the session (if you can call it a session) efren couldnt even hit the cue ball. :eek:

merylane
05-09-2006, 01:00 PM
I have heard that too about Efren donating that $10k back to Buddy. The other thing to take into consideration is that it is only one match. Buddy might have been playing lights out at that point and Efren may have been off. All that I was saying is that nobody could stay with Efren back then, and I believe it is still the same now!


is that why buddy continued to beat him the next 16 times in a row?

Grady
05-09-2006, 03:15 PM
OK, I have nothing else to say on this subject. It's worse than the people who believed that Mosconi played better 9 Ball than Wimpy. I will close by stating that it's awfully chickenshit, in my opinion to take away from Buddy's stellar playing back then by suggesting that that match was "business".
I cannot talk pool history with people who don't recognize fact.

cuetechasaurus
05-09-2006, 05:31 PM
People forget that I won the One Pocket at Red's in 85', 83' too for that matter. Most memorable to me was Buddy beating Efren 10 ahead for $10,000 in about an hour. You can't say that Efren robbed everybody. At that time I would play anyone in the world One Pocket but there were no takers around Red's.

Recently alot of people have been mentioning the fact that Efren had been up for days after beating champion after champion, when they threw a well rested and in dead-punch Buddy on him. I wonder why you left that small fact out?

cuetechasaurus
05-09-2006, 05:34 PM
OK, I have nothing else to say on this subject. It's worse than the people who believed that Mosconi played better 9 Ball than Wimpy. I will close by stating that it's awfully chickenshit, in my opinion to take away from Buddy's stellar playing back then by suggesting that that match was "business".
I cannot talk pool history with people who don't recognize fact.

Incardona and DiLiberto seem to agree on alot more facts than you. We all know you don't like Efren and never have.

BillPorter
05-09-2006, 05:46 PM
OK, I have nothing else to say on this subject. It's worse than the people who believed that Mosconi played better 9 Ball than Wimpy. I will close by stating that it's awfully chickenshit, in my opinion to take away from Buddy's stellar playing back then by suggesting that that match was "business".
I cannot talk pool history with people who don't recognize fact.
Grady,

Maybe this image will bring back a few memories and cheer you up. Hope so!

sniper
05-09-2006, 06:06 PM
Recently alot of people have been mentioning the fact that Efren had been up for days after beating champion after champion, when they threw a well rested and in dead-punch Buddy on him. I wonder why you left that small fact out?


I've heard the same thing from several credible sources, to this day Efren continues to gamble into the wee hours of the morning during a tournament, I hope I can do that when I'm in my fifties!

JoeyInCali
05-09-2006, 06:14 PM
Didn't Efren fire his backer after Red's b/c he was cheated with a lot of money?
Then the ex-backer reported Efren/Cesar Morales to the immigration.
Efren was never seen again until '89?
Btw, I wonder how many players back then were on speedball.:eek:

BillPorter
05-09-2006, 06:24 PM
Didn't Efren fire his backer after Red's b/c he was cheated with a lot of money?
Then the ex-backer reported Efren/Cesar Morales to the immigration.
Efren was never seen again until '89?
Btw, I wonder how many players back then were on speedball.:eek:
Efren appears in my pics of the 1986 Clyde Childress Memorial Tournament: http://billporter.smugmug.com/gallery/1388452/2/65649061

JoeyInCali
05-09-2006, 06:27 PM
Efren appears in my pics of the 1986 Clyde Childress Memorial Tournament: http://billporter.smugmug.com/gallery/1388452/2/65649061
WOW! Thnx.
Jeesh, Murrey tables.:eek:

jay helfert
05-09-2006, 09:34 PM
People forget that I won the One Pocket at Red's in 85', 83' too for that matter. Most memorable to me was Buddy beating Efren 10 ahead for $10,000 in about an hour. You can't say that Efren robbed everybody. At that time I would play anyone in the world One Pocket but there were no takers around Red's.

No offense Grady, but Ronnie won the One Pocket at Red's in 1985. I was his backer and he beat Jeff Carter in the finals. You may have won it in 1986. I didn't go back the next year.

jay helfert
05-09-2006, 09:41 PM
Don't mean to stir the pot, but this is where it was originally posted...

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=350138&postcount=10

I like the "sweat off their n*ts" quote BTW. :p


Once again, I saw Efren (Caesar) play all week, night and day. He did NOT play well against Buddy! Maybe he was just worn out or disgusted with his cut on the money. Something affected him and caused him to start missing balls that he hadn't missed all week.

Yes, Buddy won quickly against Efren who looked like a shadow of the man who had been playing everyone all week. I have a clear memory of this match, because it was such a contrast to the way Efren had been playing all week.

jay helfert
05-09-2006, 09:47 PM
Fred, in the book, "Billiards" by John Grissim, Grissim mentions playing Efren in the Phillipines on a trip he had taken "a few years back." Since the book has a 1979 copyright date, you have to assume that he played Efren no later than 1975 or 1976. At that time, Grissim was told that Efren was the second ranked player in the Phillipines. Maybe Parica was number 1? Anyway, Grissim certainly knew his way around the world of pool and surely passed along this information about super players in Manila to people in this country. It seems plausible that sometime between 1978 and 1984 Efren was brought over here to play a match or two. But maybe not. I just threw the question out to see what might surface.

I remember talking with John Grissim in Lake Tahoe at Richie's tournament at Caesars Tahoe in 1982. He reiterated what he said in his book. He said there were players in the Philipines that could give ANY American player the Eight ball. I just laughed quietly behind his back, thinking this guy is nuts. C'mon, Sigel, Hall, Mizerak. Surely he wasn't serious.

Like everyone else, I assumed the American pool players were the best on the planet. Little did I know. John, wherever you are, you were right!

ironman
05-10-2006, 12:02 AM
People forget that I won the One Pocket at Red's in 85', 83' too for that matter. Most memorable to me was Buddy beating Efren 10 ahead for $10,000 in about an hour. You can't say that Efren robbed everybody. At that time I would play anyone in the world One Pocket but there were no takers around Red's.

I was at Reds at this time and yes, Buddy handed him his butt. If I remember correctly, Buddy had been up for 2 days.
Grady was also trying to play anybody in the world at that time too.
I was one of the ones who got escorted to the lovely Pasadena City Hotel and a $105.00 tab for gambling. I was $120 ahead in the ring game.

ironman
05-10-2006, 12:12 AM
Honestly, the things some people believe and say! Efren throw the match to Buddy? C'mon, for 7 or 8 years after Buddy beat him some close friends of Buddy's and mine offered to let Buddy play Efren for $100,000. I was there and privy to the attempted matching up. Then, for another two or three years they didn't play because Buddy wanted to play roll-out.
IMHO, in Buddy's salad days, he played as close to as perfect 9 Ball as it was possible for a human being to play. He was no sweetheart to play against either. In other words, an opponent could play perfect or near perfect and not win. Others tried playing him for money and all failed except maybe me and I only would win about 20 per cent of the time.
Buddy is another one who just wouldn't stand still for a beating either.I was in Guys-n-DOlls in Shreveport when Buddy beat Louie so badly. Loouie didn't leave Sport for about 3 months.
This was years ago about 72-73 and there was a spot involved and I believe it was the call 7. Buddy played like a robot to the point that it was almost boring.

Grady
05-10-2006, 03:26 AM
Ronnie won it in 84', Jay.

Grady
05-10-2006, 03:28 AM
Ironman, Do you remember that I played Buddy to a draw after 6 grueling nights there in Shreveport? That match has always had a special place in my memory.

JG-in-KY
05-10-2006, 08:25 AM
WOW! Thnx.
Jeesh, Murrey tables.:eek:
Actually they were Brunswick Centurions, joey:)

rackmsuckr
05-10-2006, 11:27 AM
I asked my friend, whom we affectionately call The Mayor (because he is running for Mayor over there) the timeline and if Efren was over here earlier than 1985. He is pretty sure he was, but said he would ask. All he remembers is that Efren went to jail back then because his backer reported him to Immigration.

He also states that Efren would never dump to anyone. The only player from the Philipines with that reputation he says, is Parica. The other players value their managers and they know if they got that reputation, then they would lose their managers. He said they all play from the heart and always try to win.

Those days of even needing a manager may be in the past for Parica. He gave his wife $95,000 to save and she invested it in real estate (not sure whether in CA or the Philipines) and made $20-30 million from it. She gave him a Mercedes and a lot of cash to gamble with (casinos and pool) and he went through it too fast, so she took the Mercedes away and put him on an allowance. (Luat told me once that whatever they win, their wives get the bulk to manage the household. I like that idea!) Parica told Mike that he is probably the richest pool player in the world.

My friend attended Efren's son's wedding in March. A derivative of Efren's name, his son is called Frennie. Efren also has 2 daughters. Frennie plays just below Efren's speed, because he has always had money and never needed it to live on his earnings. Instead, he was always fat from Efren's winnings, lol.

Andrew Manning
05-10-2006, 11:46 AM
Frennie plays just below Efren's speed...

What does "just below Efren's speed" mean? If I said "just below Efren's speed" I'd be talking about Archer, Varner, Hohmann, Pagulayan; players of that calibre. Is he that good?

-Andrew

jsp
05-10-2006, 11:57 AM
I asked my friend, whom we affectionately call The Mayor (because he is running for Mayor over there) the timeline and if Efren was over here earlier than 1985. He is pretty sure he was, but said he would ask. All he remembers is that Efren went to jail back then because his backer reported him to Immigration.

He also states that Efren would never dump to anyone. The only player from the Philipines with that reputation he says, is Parica. The other players value their managers and they know if they got that reputation, then they would lose their managers. He said they all play from the heart and always try to win.

Those days of even needing a manager may be in the past for Parica. He gave his wife $95,000 to save and she invested it in real estate (not sure whether in CA or the Philipines) and made $20-30 million from it. She gave him a Mercedes and a lot of cash to gamble with (casinos and pool) and he went through it too fast, so she took the Mercedes away and put him on an allowance. (Luat told me once that whatever they win, their wives get the bulk to manage the household. I like that idea!) Parica told Mike that he is probably the richest pool player in the world.

My friend attended Efren's son's wedding in March. A derivative of Efren's name, his son is called Frennie. Efren also has 2 daughters. Frennie plays just below Efren's speed, because he has always had money and never needed it to live on his earnings. Instead, he was always fat from Efren's winnings, lol.
Great stuff Linda.

I don't know too much about Frennie, so I decided to do a google search on him and it came up with this old AZ article. Enjoy...

http://www.azbilliards.com/2000storya.cfm?storynum=1636

rackmsuckr
05-10-2006, 12:00 PM
What does "just below Efren's speed" mean? If I said "just below Efren's speed" I'd be talking about Archer, Varner, Hohmann, Pagulayan; players of that calibre. Is he that good?

-Andrew

Hmmm, hard to say. Better than a shortstop, so I guess I would say pro calibre, but maybe not top pro? I would say he can beat his old man occasionally but is certainly not the favorite.

JoeyInCali
05-10-2006, 12:42 PM
Actually they were Brunswick Centurions, joey:)
Thank God. :D

JoeyInCali
05-10-2006, 12:44 PM
What does "just below Efren's speed" mean? If I said "just below Efren's speed" I'd be talking about Archer, Varner, Hohmann, Pagulayan; players of that calibre. Is he that good?

-Andrew
Frennie would be a shortstop here.
He might win a regional tournament but not a pro-tournament.

BillPorter
05-10-2006, 02:17 PM
I asked my friend, whom we affectionately call The Mayor (because he is running for Mayor over there) the timeline and if Efren was over here earlier than 1985. He is pretty sure he was, but said he would ask. All he remembers is that Efren went to jail back then because his backer reported him to Immigration.

A Ha!!! See, this is exactly what I had in mind when I started this thread. I thought there might be a hint or two about Efren being in the States prior to 1985. Hey, this could be one of the ultimate tirivia questions about the history of pool over the past 50 years - "When was Efren FIRST in this country?" I suppose it's something that may never be know with absolute certainty (did OJ do it?), but I think it's an interesting question and has given rise to an interesting thread. And btw, great info on Paria! Thanks, Linda!:)

JoeyInCali
05-10-2006, 02:36 PM
A Ha!!! See, this is exactly what I had in mind when I started this thread. I thought there might be a hint or two about Efren being in the States prior to 1985. Hey, this could be one of the ultimate tirivia questions about the history of pool over the past 50 years - "When was Efren FIRST in this country?" I suppose it's something that may never be know with absolute certainty (did OJ do it?), but I think it's an interesting question and has given rise to an interesting thread. And btw, great info on Paria! Thanks, Linda!:)
Not according to a friend of mine whom I just talked to.
He's Efren's main matchup man here.
Efren used Cesar Morales's passport when he came here in '85.
Cesar used to hang out by Lucky 13 in Manila where Efren frequented then.

Nostroke
05-10-2006, 02:55 PM
I asked my friend, whom we affectionately call The Mayor (because he is running for Mayor over there) the timeline and if Efren was over here earlier than 1985. He is pretty sure he was, but said he would ask. All he remembers is that Efren went to jail back then because his backer reported him to Immigration.

He also states that Efren would never dump to anyone. The only player from the Philipines with that reputation he says, is Parica. The other players value their managers and they know if they got that reputation, then they would lose their managers. He said they all play from the heart and always try to win.

Those days of even needing a manager may be in the past for Parica. He gave his wife $95,000 to save and she invested it in real estate (not sure whether in CA or the Philipines) and made $20-30 million from it. She gave him a Mercedes and a lot of cash to gamble with (casinos and pool) and he went through it too fast, so she took the Mercedes away and put him on an allowance. (Luat told me once that whatever they win, their wives get the bulk to manage the household. I like that idea!) Parica told Mike that he is probably the richest pool player in the world.

My friend attended Efren's son's wedding in March. A derivative of Efren's name, his son is called Frennie. Efren also has 2 daughters. Frennie plays just below Efren's speed, because he has always had money and never needed it to live on his earnings. Instead, he was always fat from Efren's winnings, lol.


If Efren did lose a set on purpose for safety reasons or even to keep a customer, I wouldnt really consider that true "dumping" or a negative thing.

Dumping your manager or losing a set for your immediate financial gain is a low down scoundrel move though IMHO.

poolrooko
05-10-2006, 05:30 PM
I am a new poster, but a longtime reader of posts on this great forum. I am trying to research the Rochester angle, and have had a few people tell me that yes, he was in Rochester in the late 70's. When I find out more I will let this forum know. Anyone that has info on this, could they please email me at therooko@hotmail.com. Thanks.

Sparky Ferrell
05-10-2006, 05:43 PM
I have been to texas at a place called richie 8-ball about 10 years ago and the old man that owned it had the news paper with the tournament results from his first appearance to the usa (houston) he beat billy johnson (wade crane) in the finals the its funny how both players were playing under fake names as for the match with buddy, efren won the tournament then beat wade a set for 3000 then played buddy a set for 5000 or 10000 efren lost to buddy and he was tired we will play tomorrow buddy never showed up tomorrow ALL THIS INFO OTHER THAN THE TOURNAMENT RESULTS I AM QUOTING FROM A SOLID SOURCE I WAS NOT THERE I WAS IN 7TH GRADE

BillPorter
05-10-2006, 05:45 PM
I am a new poster, but a longtime reader of posts on this great forum. I am trying to research the Rochester angle, and have had a few people tell me that yes, he was in Rochester in the late 70's. When I find out more I will let this forum know. Anyone that has info on this, could they please email me at therooko@hotmail.com. Thanks.
The plot thickens! Pool detectives are coming out of the woodwork to answer this question. As for me, as much as I'd like to keep checking this thread, I must now join my wife in the living room to watch Criminal Minds. Guess it won't be too much of a shift. :D

BillPorter
05-10-2006, 05:47 PM
I have been to texas at a place called richie 8-ball about 10 years ago and the old man that owned it had the news paper with the tournament results from his first appearance to the usa (houston) he beat billy johnson (wade crane) in the finals the its funny how both players were playing under fake names as for the match with buddy, efren won the tournament then beat wade a set for 3000 then played buddy a set for 5000 or 10000 efren lost to buddy and he was tired we will play tomorrow buddy never showed up tomorrow ALL THIS INFO OTHER THAN THE TOURNAMENT RESULTS I AM QUOTING FROM A SOLID SOURCE I WAS NOT THERE I WAS IN 7TH GRADE
Hey, Sparky, thanks for the info. And BTW, I always enjoy seeing you in action at DCC.

Only ERO's
05-10-2006, 09:15 PM
I am a new poster, but a longtime reader of posts on this great forum. I am trying to research the Rochester angle, and have had a few people tell me that yes, he was in Rochester in the late 70's. When I find out more I will let this forum know. Anyone that has info on this, could they please email me at therooko@hotmail.com. Thanks.


Just curious who you are going to contact about the Rochester thing? Send me a PM if you don't want to talk about it in public. I have a few very credible sources. I am also going to try to get a hold of the guy that owned the pool hall at that time.

rackmsuckr
05-10-2006, 09:32 PM
I emailed Mr. Puyat, Efren's manager, to see whether he could get clarification for us.

bandido
05-11-2006, 12:32 AM
That's going back, isn't it?
Efren maintains to this day Boy Bicol was the best player he ever saw.
He only tells this Pinoys of course. Boy Bicol's cueball control according to Efren was incredible. Efren said Boy lost a match one day. His backers thought he threw the match ( he was giving a huge spot of course ) . Efren said Boy just missed after taking a shot for granted. He was dead after that.
I use to be Boy Bicol's sidekick back in the early '70s when the hot spot was D'or Billiards in Cubao. Yes he was top dog back then and mostly playing Efren, Amang and Totoy Dacer. I only did find out about his demise after I returned from the US. I was told that it was his stakehorse that was "invited" but, for not knowing what was going on, he insisted that he should go with his financier. So off they went only to be found in pieces that can fit shoe boxes.

kidrock
05-11-2006, 05:34 AM
I use to be Boy Bicol's sidekick back in the early '70s when the hot spot was D'or Billiards in Cubao. Yes he was top dog back then and mostly playing Efren, Amang and Totoy Dacer. I only did find out about his demise after I returned from the US. I was told that it was his stakehorse that was "invited" but, for not knowing what was going on, he insisted that he should go with his financier. So off they went only to be found in pieces that can fit shoe boxes.

That's really tragic...

BillPorter
05-11-2006, 02:03 PM
For me, this has been one of the most interesting threads ever. I just thought it deserved a bump.

JG-in-KY
05-11-2006, 05:44 PM
Everyone was fooled. Who was that masked man?(photo from Billiards Digest)

JoeyInCali
05-11-2006, 05:46 PM
For me, this has been one of the most interesting threads ever. I just thought it deserved a bump.
Efren arrives here tonite but I don't know if I'm gonna see him this weekend.
He'll be here in July for the IPT event at the Venetian of course.
Maybe we can settle this then.:D

biggame
05-11-2006, 06:15 PM
Luat is calling me late tonight and i will see if he has any info.

3kushn
05-11-2006, 06:30 PM
I'm as big an Efren fan as anyone, but how do you "fire in" a spot shot, and not hit a rail?.....maybe slow spin one in?......but fire?

Gerry
I was watching a top player around 1975 or 6 practicing this shot. He got extremely close. Close enough that I think it's possible with a terrific stroke. Anyway a guy came up and bet him $50 on the shot. He took the bet and set the CB down and fired a bank straight back in the corner. The bet was remember, Shoot the spot and not touch a rail with the CB no mention of how.

Magik Wandzzzzz
05-11-2006, 06:49 PM
I don't know about Red's in Houston [or when that was] but I do know that in July/Aug[??] 1885 I was the Head Referee helping out Chris Chrisman run that years BIlliards Digest 3 Cushion Open [$30,000 prize money-really, really big for those days] at Chris's Billiards on N Mailwaukee in Chicago when Efrem walked in the door and paid his entry fee. Now I had heard about him from my friend CARL CONLON but had never met him until then. Ceuleman's was there, a 19 year old Blomdahl, Larry "Boston Shorty" Johnson, Gilbert, Ashby, Torres, Hallon, Sims plus all the other usual suspects. Never seen anything like it until CAROM CORNER and SANG LEE got going [Sang came over one year later in 1986 for which I have a story about also].

So at any rate, EFREM was there, he played and was one of the also rans in that he did not make the finals. But they did have sorta a consolation finals, 8 man single elimination as I re-call, which EFREM did win to cash for $1000. As I was the head referee I was responsible for scheduling all the games. Efrem asked me if I could work around him as he was also playing in a local 9 Ball Tourney in another room in Chicago that Sat and Sun, those being the days he also had to play at Chris's in the consolation finals playing 3 cushion carom billiards. While winning the consolation finals at Chris's [he played to around a solid 0.950 average] he also won the 9 Ball Tournament, going from room to room to play what he had to when he had to. Most remarkable performance.

Hope you enjoyed it, this is a true story

Dennis Dieckman, Builder of Magik Wandzzzzzz

Nostroke
05-11-2006, 07:33 PM
I don't know about Red's in Houston [or when that was] but I do know that in July/Aug[??] 1885 I was the Head Referee helping out Chris Chrisman run that years BIlliards Digest 3 Cushion Open [$30,000 prize money-really, really big for those days] at Chris's Billiards on N Mailwaukee in Chicago when Efrem walked in the door and paid his entry fee. Now I had heard about him from my friend CARL CONLON but had never met him until then. Ceuleman's was there, a 19 year old Blomdahl, Larry "Boston Shorty" Johnson, Gilbert, Ashby, Torres, Hallon, Sims plus all the other usual suspects. Never seen anything like it until CAROM CORNER and SANG LEE got going [Sang came over one year later in 1986 for which I have a story about also].

So at any rate, EFREM was there, he played and was one of the also rans in that he did not make the finals. But they did have sorta a consolation finals, 8 man single elimination as I re-call, which EFREM did win to cash for $1000. As I was the head referee I was responsible for scheduling all the games. Efrem asked me if I could work around him as he was also playing in a local 9 Ball Tourney in another room in Chicago that Sat and Sun, those being the days he also had to play at Chris's in the consolation finals playing 3 cushion carom billiards. While winning the consolation finals at Chris's [he played to around a solid 0.950 average] he also won the 9 Ball Tournament, going from room to room to play what he had to when he had to. Most remarkable performance.

Hope you enjoyed it, this is a true story

Dennis Dieckman, Builder of Magik Wandzzzzzz

Did Allen Hopkins learn Efren's name from you?

Renegade
05-12-2006, 03:14 AM
"....In July/Aug[??] 1885 I was the Head Referee helping out Chris Chrisman run that years BIlliards Digest 3 Cushion Open"

1885??? I guess that settles the question!

BillPorter
05-12-2006, 03:20 AM
"....In July/Aug[??] 1885 I was the Head Referee helping out Chris Chrisman run that years BIlliards Digest 3 Cushion Open"

1885??? That settles the question!
My first laugh of the day! Thanks, Renegade. :)

On a more serious note, was this before or after the tournament at Red's?

Tablemechanic
05-12-2006, 05:16 AM
I might see him tommarow at Hard Times. I will ask him, if not I will see him in Vegas. Joey's contact is one of Efren's best friends and pretty much knows the history about him. Also I see Jose Parica almost everyday and I think he would know to.

I hope you dont mind Bill, I printed out the photos of Jose, Efren, and Little Al for them. They love them and can not believe that the photos are around. I showed Efren last night and he said he looked so young. I asked him if that was the first time he was here and I think he said yes. He wants the photos when he gets back from Vegas. I will find out for sure.

Steve

Nostroke
05-12-2006, 05:44 AM
I use to be Boy Bicol's sidekick back in the early '70s when the hot spot was D'or Billiards in Cubao. Yes he was top dog back then and mostly playing Efren, Amang and Totoy Dacer. I only did find out about his demise after I returned from the US. I was told that it was his stakehorse that was "invited" but, for not knowing what was going on, he insisted that he should go with his financier. So off they went only to be found in pieces that can fit shoe boxes.

Hey Edwin-Was anyone prosecuted for this?

Also-did this lead to less stakehorses and were the players less likely to get involved in big stakes match-ups after that? I know it would cool my desire permanently.

gulfportdoc
05-12-2006, 06:21 AM
He gave his wife $95,000 to save and she invested it in real estate (not sure whether in CA or the Philipines) and made $20-30 million from it.
That's very unlikely. Even $1 million would be pushing it. Maybe she's friends with Hillary Clinton?:rolleyes:

Doc

pharaoh68
05-12-2006, 08:56 AM
That's very unlikely. Even $1 million would be pushing it. Maybe she's friends with Hillary Clinton?:rolleyes:

Doc

Not completely. I work in publishing for a prof./trade book publishing company. One of our authors started his real estate investing business with $50,000. He just recently sold a house for a little over $80,000,000 and is brokering a deal on a $100,000,000 plus home. Trust me. Real estate is the smartest investment you can make these days. You get the right guidance and make the right moves and you can turn that kind of money into $1million in a month!

bandido
05-12-2006, 09:10 AM
Hey Edwin-Was anyone prosecuted for this?
No one that I know of. I would guess that who ever did it is a heavyweight that no one dares to cross.

Also-did this lead to less stakehorses and were the players less likely to get involved in big stakes match-ups after that? I know it would cool my desire permanently.

No it didn't. There're actually more with bigger amounts to play around with.

sixpack
05-12-2006, 09:12 AM
Not completely. I work in publishing for a prof./trade book publishing company. One of our authors started his real estate investing business with $50,000. He just recently sold a house for a little over $80,000,000 and is brokering a deal on a $100,000,000 plus home. Trust me. Real estate is the smartest investment you can make these days. You get the right guidance and make the right moves and you can turn that kind of money into $1million in a month!

Who is he and what is his book called?

RC

jay helfert
05-12-2006, 09:27 AM
I don't know about Red's in Houston [or when that was] but I do know that in July/Aug[??] 1885 I was the Head Referee helping out Chris Chrisman run that years BIlliards Digest 3 Cushion Open [$30,000 prize money-really, really big for those days] at Chris's Billiards on N Mailwaukee in Chicago when Efrem walked in the door and paid his entry fee. Now I had heard about him from my friend CARL CONLON but had never met him until then. Ceuleman's was there, a 19 year old Blomdahl, Larry "Boston Shorty" Johnson, Gilbert, Ashby, Torres, Hallon, Sims plus all the other usual suspects. Never seen anything like it until CAROM CORNER and SANG LEE got going [Sang came over one year later in 1986 for which I have a story about also].

So at any rate, EFREM was there, he played and was one of the also rans in that he did not make the finals. But they did have sorta a consolation finals, 8 man single elimination as I re-call, which EFREM did win to cash for $1000. As I was the head referee I was responsible for scheduling all the games. Efrem asked me if I could work around him as he was also playing in a local 9 Ball Tourney in another room in Chicago that Sat and Sun, those being the days he also had to play at Chris's in the consolation finals playing 3 cushion carom billiards. While winning the consolation finals at Chris's [he played to around a solid 0.950 average] he also won the 9 Ball Tournament, going from room to room to play what he had to when he had to. Most remarkable performance.

Hope you enjoyed it, this is a true story

Dennis Dieckman, Builder of Magik Wandzzzzzz

How old were you in 1885? lol

jay helfert
05-12-2006, 09:34 AM
Not completely. I work in publishing for a prof./trade book publishing company. One of our authors started his real estate investing business with $50,000. He just recently sold a house for a little over $80,000,000 and is brokering a deal on a $100,000,000 plus home. Trust me. Real estate is the smartest investment you can make these days. You get the right guidance and make the right moves and you can turn that kind of money into $1million in a month!


Excuse me. A 80M house and a 100M house? Please. I am in real estate in Southern California and that would be more expensive than any property on the whole West Coast or Hawaii. The biggest estates out here are in the
30-40M range.

You may have added one zero for emphasis. Eight to Ten Mil I have no problem with. You'll have to show me a 80M estate. Bill Gate's property is valued at 60M. Maybe your friend is wealthier than Bill too.

jay helfert
05-12-2006, 09:36 AM
Everyone was fooled. Who was that masked man?(photo from Billiards Digest)

Sh-t, Grady was right. Ronnie won the One Pocket in 1984. Okay Grady, I owe you a dinner.

karambolista
05-12-2006, 02:01 PM
I use to be Boy Bicol's sidekick back in the early '70s when the hot spot was D'or Billiards in Cubao. Yes he was top dog back then and mostly playing Efren, Amang and Totoy Dacer. I only did find out about his demise after I returned from the US. I was told that it was his stakehorse that was "invited" but, for not knowing what was going on, he insisted that he should go with his financier. So off they went only to be found in pieces that can fit shoe boxes.

When did this happened?

gulfportdoc
05-12-2006, 06:03 PM
Trust me. Real estate is the smartest investment you can make these days. You get the right guidance and make the right moves and you can turn that kind of money into $1million in a month!
How much are you spending on these get-rich-quick real estate seminars?:D

Doc

Nostroke
05-12-2006, 06:16 PM
Not completely. I work in publishing for a prof./trade book publishing company. One of our authors started his real estate investing business with $50,000. He just recently sold a house for a little over $80,000,000 and is brokering a deal on a $100,000,000 plus home. Trust me. Real estate is the smartest investment you can make these days. You get the right guidance and make the right moves and you can turn that kind of money into $1million in a month!

Easy man-Real Estate goes down too. I know a guy who was flipping houses in the 80's doing great, worked his way up to 5 houses all at once when the market collapsed.

Today he has no money, no credit and if he ever gets a real job and tries to put money in the bank, the IRS will take it.

I know another guy in Florida now who has 7 houses- He started in the business 18 months ago. He sold one house for a small profit and the other 6 unsold though he dropped the prices to where he is 'even'. If the market goes further south, he will be in the same boat with my other buddy.

Once the speculators start baling, watch out below.

I wouldnt go anywhere near Real Estate til there is a major pullback-at least 30% from here. Then only buy what you can rent profitably while you wait for possibe appreciation.

jsp
05-13-2006, 05:19 PM
This is from the recent Billiards Digest article Filipino Idol (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/current_issue/jun_06/index.php)...

Those familiar with the lore of Reyes will certainly recognize the name "Cesar Morales." That was the tag Reyes used when he played in Red's 9-Ball Open in Houston back in 1985, when the Filipinos who came with this "Morales" guy walked out with $81,000 in prize money and side bets after it was all over. The real Morales has been a lifelong friend of Reyes and was at Red's, where, because his name was being used, he went by the name of Cesar Chua.

Because of a misunderstanding several years back, Morales and Reyes became estranged, but have recently patched over their differences. According to Morales, who can usually be found hanging around wherever in Angeles there's a money match, the Red's ploy was a time-honored tactic which he, Reyes, as well as Rodolfo Luat and Efren's long time manager, Rolando Vicente, had used countless times in the Philippines back in the 1970s. The group would travel from town to town hustling matches against top local players. These were the days before big tournaments and televised pool in the Philippines. Even a basic landline telephone was difficult to come by. Players in the neighboring towns had often heard of this phenom Efren Reyes, but weren't sure of his face.

So I guess according to Morales (the real one), Efren has been to the country "countless times" in the 70s.

Nostroke
05-13-2006, 05:29 PM
This is from the recent Billiards Digest article Filipino Idol (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/current_issue/jun_06/index.php)...



So I guess according to Morales (the real one), Efren has been to the country "countless times" in the 70s.

I wondered if Efren was arrested allegedly on that same 'Reds' USA trip for using Cesar's passport-what was Cesar using?

BillPorter
05-13-2006, 06:16 PM
This is from the recent Billiards Digest article Filipino Idol (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/current_issue/jun_06/index.php)...



So I guess according to Morales (the real one), Efren has been to the country "countless times" in the 70s.
I read the same article, and I can't understand where you are getting your comment. The "countless times" phrase seems to apply to the Philippines, not the USA

jsp
05-14-2006, 08:35 AM
I read the same article, and I can't understand where you are getting your comment. The "countless times" phrase seems to apply to the Philippines, not the USA
Oops. You're right. I totally misunderstood the quote. Thanks.

Rickw
05-14-2006, 09:06 AM
First of all, to the poster that thinks a bunch of little Filipinos wouldn't be able to fend off an attack, you just don't know!

Also, this is a question for those that were in the thick of it back in the early 80's, do you think Parica could have been mistaken for Efren once in a while? I remember how everyone was freaking out about this one Filipino guy that was terrorizing the US playing pool. I never heard about a second one. Wasn't Jose around back then? If so, was he a force to be reckoned with? I would certainly think so.

Jose has told me personally that he has done things back in the early 80's that was attributed to Efren. He told me that he played a guy in Texas and ran 12 racks of 9b in a race to 13 and the guy just threw in the towel and he said that Efren was given credit for that.

JoeyInCali
05-14-2006, 12:01 PM
First of all, to the poster that thinks a bunch of little Filipinos wouldn't be able to fend off an attack, you just don't know!

Also, this is a question for those that were in the thick of it back in the early 80's, do you think Parica could have been mistaken for Efren once in a while? I remember how everyone was freaking out about this one Filipino guy that was terrorizing the US playing pool. I never heard about a second one. Wasn't Jose around back then? If so, was he a force to be reckoned with? I would certainly think so.

Jose has told me personally that he has done things back in the early 80's that was attributed to Efren. He told me that he played a guy in Texas and ran 12 racks of 9b in a race to 13 and the guy just threw in the towel and he said that Efren was given credit for that.
I think so.
Jose came here around 5 years before Efren did, I believe.
Unlike Efren, Jose was able to bet a US visa easily as his family was well-off.
Efren back then could have not possibly gotten a US visa.
Jose's father was a Manila cop. His family owned a pool hall in Manila.
Jose was already a travelling vet before Efren got here.

JoeyInCali
05-14-2006, 12:01 PM
First of all, to the poster that thinks a bunch of little Filipinos wouldn't be able to fend off an attack, you just don't know!

Also, this is a question for those that were in the thick of it back in the early 80's, do you think Parica could have been mistaken for Efren once in a while? I remember how everyone was freaking out about this one Filipino guy that was terrorizing the US playing pool. I never heard about a second one. Wasn't Jose around back then? If so, was he a force to be reckoned with? I would certainly think so.

Jose has told me personally that he has done things back in the early 80's that was attributed to Efren. He told me that he played a guy in Texas and ran 12 racks of 9b in a race to 13 and the guy just threw in the towel and he said that Efren was given credit for that.
I think so.
Jose came here around 5 years before Efren did, I believe.
Unlike Efren, Jose was able to bet a US visa easily as his family was well-off.
Efren back then could have not possibly gotten a US visa.
Jose's father was a Manila cop. His family owned a pool hall in Manila.
Jose was already a travelling vet before Efren got here.

rackmsuckr
05-14-2006, 12:32 PM
Darn! I forgot to ask him yesterday, lol

jay helfert
05-14-2006, 07:52 PM
Jose came in about 1979 and 80 and played in the Straight pool in NYC. He finished something like 9th or 10th.
Afterward he gambled with Mizerak, getting like 25 balls to 150 and beat him.
Efren did not come to the US until Reds in 1985. And jose was the guy who terrorized the best American players in Dallas in the 80's (playing Ten Ball). That's another story.

PoolBum
05-14-2006, 09:30 PM
Did Allen Hopkins learn Efren's name from you?

I think they both learned Efren's name from Nick Varner.

Only ERO's
05-16-2006, 05:31 PM
Well I just got a hold of one guy about Efren. I talked to Stan Wilson who owned Chick's Billiards in Rochester, MN back in the 80's. He said he brought Efren over here a short time after the tournament at Red's. He wasn't for sure about the dates because he has been out of pool for years. He said he heard all about Efren in the Phillippines and in Texas after the Red's tournament from some of Efren's good friends, the Ramirez brothers. Stan came in contact and paid to have Efren come to Minnesota for his tournament.

It was a $4000 first prize and he said it drew some big names. The names Stan remembered showing up were Mike Massey, Dallas West and Danny Medina. He had another big added tournament a short time after the first and that was another huge success. Willie Munson showed up to one of those as well. Efren won the first one and he believes Jeff Carter won the second one. Stan thought it was funny because he said Efren won the first tournament with a $12 piece of shit cue. He said Jose Parica came up for the second tournament he hosted.

He believes there was an article in Billiards Digest in the mid 80's about this tournament. Maybe there is somebody out there that has that issue. I would be extremely interested in the article. I am also going to try to find some info abou this from the local paper.

Unfortunately, I was wrong about Efren coming to Rochester first. It was soon after he went to Texas. I am glad I was able to get a hold of somebody that still remember the information though.

BillPorter
05-16-2006, 05:46 PM
Well I just got a hold of one guy about Efren. I talked to Stan Wilson who owned Chick's Billiards in Rochester, MN back in the 80's. He said he brought Efren over here a short time after the tournament at Red's. He wasn't for sure about the dates because he has been out of pool for years. He said he heard all about Efren in the Phillippines and in Texas after the Red's tournament from some of Efren's good friends, the Ramirez brothers. Stan came in contact and paid to have Efren come to Minnesota for his tournament.

It was a $4000 first prize and he said it drew some big names. The names Stan remembered showing up were Mike Massey, Dallas West and Danny Medina. He had another big added tournament a short time after the first and that was another huge success. Willie Munson showed up to one of those as well. Efren won the first one and he believes Jeff Carter won the second one. Stan thought it was funny because he said Efren won the first tournament with a $12 piece of shit cue. He said Jose Parica came up for the second tournament he hosted.

He believes there was an article in Billiards Digest in the mid 80's about this tournament. Maybe there is somebody out there that has that issue. I would be extremely interested in the article. I am also going to try to find some info abou this from the local paper.

Unfortunately, I was wrong about Efren coming to Rochester first. It was soon after he went to Texas. I am glad I was able to get a hold of somebody that still remember the information though.
I appreciate you following through so well on this topic. You know, after looking at the 100+ posts in this thread, I don't really see any good basis for assuming that Efren came here prior to the Red's tournament in Houston in 1985. I know that's the conventional answer and it's tempting to think that he may have made one or more "secret" trips to this country in the several years prior to 1985. But we have really wrung this one out, haven't we? Again, my thanks to you and all the others who have contributed to the thread!!! Are we done?:)

Magik Wandzzzzz
05-19-2006, 07:49 PM
The spelling of names seems to be quite the thing on this web site....as most people can't spell mine [Dieckman] the fact that I can't speel other's should be of no consequence.....so Efrem is Efren [sorry]

About Red's, sorry I am basically a carom player and not really up on pool history but I do remember these Red's Tourney's in Houston.....whether Red's came before or after Chris's seems to be kinda a moot point as they were both in the same year, seemingly fairly close to gether.....I mean come on guyzz [and girlzz] do we really want to establish THE EXACT DAY EFREN set foot in this country for the first time, or are we more interested in just some sort of general idea??? I have given you folks my input, AND I WAS THERE, at least in CHICAGO and saw him play. Houston, I was not at, so sorry..........can't report.

And as to the question as to how old I was then, well if it was 1985, which it was, then I must have been somewhere around Jack Benny's Age, which is to say 39. It is just amazing how time flys.....and now I am a 60 year old man who can still beat 95% of the people who read this post at whatever game they might want to play....don't believe, come to my place as my guest and try me out........
Cheers, and luv u all.
The Dieckmaniac, Builder of Magik Wandzzzzz

Nostroke
05-19-2006, 10:53 PM
The spelling of names seems to be quite the thing on this web site....as most people can't spell mine [Dieckman] the fact that I can't speel other's should be of no consequence.....so Efrem is Efren [sorry]

About Red's, sorry I am basically a carom player and not really up on pool history but I do remember these Red's Tourney's in Houston.....whether Red's came before or after Chris's seems to be kinda a moot point as they were both in the same year, seemingly fairly close to gether.....I mean come on guyzz [and girlzz] do we really want to establish THE EXACT DAY EFREN set foot in this country for the first time, or are we more interested in just some sort of general idea??? I have given you folks my input, AND I WAS THERE, at least in CHICAGO and saw him play. Houston, I was not at, so sorry..........can't report.

And as to the question as to how old I was then, well if it was 1985, which it was, then I must have been somewhere around Jack Benny's Age, which is to say 39. It is just amazing how time flys.....and now I am a 60 year old man who can still beat 95% of the people who read this post at whatever game they might want to play....don't believe, come to my place as my guest and try me out........
Cheers, and luv u all.
The Dieckmaniac, Builder of Magik Wandzzzzz

It's not a matter of spelling man-If someone kept referring to you as 'Lieckman' -would you say he he couldnt spell your name or would you say he didnt know your name?

RiverRat
05-20-2006, 06:44 AM
People forget that I won the One Pocket at Red's in 85', 83' too for that matter. Most memorable to me was Buddy beating Efren 10 ahead for $10,000 in about an hour. You can't say that Efren robbed everybody. At that time I would play anyone in the world One Pocket but there were no takers around Red's.

I just started playing One Pocket about a year ago. I'm interested in what cue you use when playing. Thanks. BTW, I met you and Allison Fisher here in Tallahassee back when you did your tour here at Snookers.

Bob Jewett
05-22-2006, 11:23 AM
I was having a friendly debate with a guy in the pool hall today about when Efren first came to this country. Any of you guys have a definite answer to the question? An answer you would be willing to wager on? Thanks in advance for any help.
For the cover of the Accu-Stats issue that covered the tournament at Red's in early 1985, see: http://www.sfbilliards.com/efren_caesar.gif

BillPorter
05-22-2006, 02:36 PM
For the cover of the Accu-Stats issue that covered the tournament at Red's in early 1985, see: http://www.sfbilliards.com/efren_caesar.gif
What a neat image! I'm sure Accu-Stats wouldn't mind if I stick that image in a photo gallery of images from the old Red's tournaments. I notice that the date on the cover is Jan. 1 - Feb. 2, 1985. So I guess the tournament must have taken place in January of 1985. Anyway, thanks for digging that up!:)

Bob Jewett
05-22-2006, 03:14 PM
... the date on the cover is Jan. 1 - Feb. 2, 1985. So I guess the tournament must have taken place in January of 1985. ..
The dates of the tournament were Jan 28 - Feb 2, 1985, which was Monday through Saturday according to my calendar.

"Caesar" had the best TPA in the tournament with a 0.896. Even though he was not in the top 15 for break performance (balls on the break), he had the best percentage of runouts from the break (32.8%). He missed one kick in 26 attempts.

It's too bad that Pat Fleming didn't get more subscribers to his stats newsletter, but it did produce Accu-Stats videos.

bobson_215
05-28-2006, 01:05 PM
*bump* for you

IPT-hopeful
05-29-2006, 09:17 PM
The spelling of names seems to be quite the thing on this web site....as most people can't spell mine [Dieckman] the fact that I can't speel other's should be of no consequence.....so Efrem is Efren [sorry]

About Red's, sorry I am basically a carom player and not really up on pool history but I do remember these Red's Tourney's in Houston.....whether Red's came before or after Chris's seems to be kinda a moot point as they were both in the same year, seemingly fairly close to gether.....I mean come on guyzz [and girlzz] do we really want to establish THE EXACT DAY EFREN set foot in this country for the first time, or are we more interested in just some sort of general idea??? I have given you folks my input, AND I WAS THERE, at least in CHICAGO and saw him play. Houston, I was not at, so sorry..........can't report.

And as to the question as to how old I was then, well if it was 1985, which it was, then I must have been somewhere around Jack Benny's Age, which is to say 39. It is just amazing how time flys.....and now I am a 60 year old man who can still beat 95% of the people who read this post at whatever game they might want to play....don't believe, come to my place as my guest and try me out........
Cheers, and luv u all.
The Dieckmaniac, Builder of Magik Wandzzzzz

And which place would that be? Would be fun to check out that claim :)

Renegade
05-29-2006, 10:37 PM
I read somewhere that efren once played carom almost exclusively. anyone know if he competed in any carom tournaments and what his record was like?

00john
01-12-2013, 01:50 PM
i do remember in orange county there was a place in anaheim called the orange county sports arena where they had bumper cars and pool tables. Keith was recent world champion and playing 1000 dollar sets and losing to guys we were calling the taiwanese. That was around 81. probably parica tho?