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Grady
05-10-2006, 04:37 PM
Jay:
Quote:No offense Grady, but Ronnie won the One Pocket at Red's in 1985. I was his backer and he beat Jeff Carter in the finals. You may have won it in 1986. I didn't go back the next year.

I guess my winning trophy for the Red's One Pocket is a misprint as it clearly says 1985. (See following photo.)

Cuetechasaurus' quote:
We all know you don't like Efren and never have.

That wasn't a nice thing to say and it is completely untrue. The photo (that follows) of my 2nd place finish in Virginia Beach in 1985 proves that I was at the tournament where Efren had his passport taken and was arrested. Shortly after this tournament, I offered to help Efren with his Visa problems and helping him with anything he might need in the US.
This tournament holds a special place in my memory because I lost my first match to David Howard 10-2 and then won 9 matches in a row including victories over Dave Bowman, Mike Lebron, Steve Mizerak, and other notables.
I have never been anti any ethnic group or country. What I have been is pro American. It has always bothered me, although I never said so, that the Billys and the Freddies of the pool world would pull against me when I'd play an Efren.
I may be the only player who has defeated Efren, Parica, Buddy, Bugs, Ronnie Allen, Artie from Chicago and a host of others, playing them all even and betting my own money.

BillPorter
05-10-2006, 04:40 PM
Jay:
Quote:No offense Grady, but Ronnie won the One Pocket at Red's in 1985. I was his backer and he beat Jeff Carter in the finals. You may have won it in 1986. I didn't go back the next year.

I guess my winning trophy for the Red's One Pocket is a misprint as it clearly says 1985. (See following photo.)
Not taking sides here, just helping get a photo up on the board.

BillPorter
05-10-2006, 04:41 PM
Cuetechasaurus' quote:
We all know you don't like Efren and never have.

That wasn't a nice thing to say and it is completely untrue. The photo (that follows) of my 2nd place finish in Virginia Beach in 1985 proves that I was at the tournament where Efren had his passport taken and was arrested. Shortly after this tournament, I offered to help Efren with his Visa problems and helping him with anything he might need in the US.
This tournament holds a special place in my memory because I lost my first match to David Howard 10-2 and then won 9 matches in a row including victories over Dave Bowman, Mike Lebron, Steve Mizerak, and other notables.
I have never been anti any ethnic group or country. What I have been is pro American. It has always bothered me, although I never said so, that the Billys and the Freddies of the pool world would pull against me when I'd play an Efren.
I may be the only player who has defeated Efren, Parica, Buddy, Bugs, Ronnie Allen, Artie from Chicago and a host of others, playing them all even and betting my own money.
Photo #2: Second Place

Grady
05-10-2006, 04:54 PM
Thanks a lot, Bill

cuetechasaurus
05-10-2006, 05:28 PM
Jay:
Quote:No offense Grady, but Ronnie won the One Pocket at Red's in 1985. I was his backer and he beat Jeff Carter in the finals. You may have won it in 1986. I didn't go back the next year.

I guess my winning trophy for the Red's One Pocket is a misprint as it clearly says 1985. (See following photo.)

Cuetechasaurus' quote:
We all know you don't like Efren and never have.

That wasn't a nice thing to say and it is completely untrue. The photo (that follows) of my 2nd place finish in Virginia Beach in 1985 proves that I was at the tournament where Efren had his passport taken and was arrested. Shortly after this tournament, I offered to help Efren with his Visa problems and helping him with anything he might need in the US.
This tournament holds a special place in my memory because I lost my first match to David Howard 10-2 and then won 9 matches in a row including victories over Dave Bowman, Mike Lebron, Steve Mizerak, and other notables.
I have never been anti any ethnic group or country. What I have been is pro American. It has always bothered me, although I never said so, that the Billys and the Freddies of the pool world would pull against me when I'd play an Efren.
I may be the only player who has defeated Efren, Parica, Buddy, Bugs, Ronnie Allen, Artie from Chicago and a host of others, playing them all even and betting my own money.

I don't see why you are playing the race card when I wasn't. I just pointed out that you have always seemed to have something against Efren for a long time. I've saw it in your 'after hours' gambling match where you lost against him and complained that he got lucky (which he didn't), I've listened to it in your many commentaries (even though I enjoy your commentary), and I've read it in your posts. I never said you have anything against anyone of another race. I know you aren't like that. I said that you just don't like Efren, and alot of people know that you don't like him.

bud green
05-10-2006, 08:52 PM
I believe its the Daulton/Deuel one pocket match (Deuel hardbreaks) on which Grady does commentary and tells of how Deuel asked him how to get better or to the next level.

Grady tells him to get some money together and gamble rotation with Efren which Corey did. If Grady doesn't like him (which I don't believe) he at the very least respects the hell out of him.

Page 73 of Grady's autobiography shows him being presented the trophy for the '85 Red's One Pocket by Scott Smith and Red Walling.

Salamander
05-10-2006, 08:59 PM
Good point. And not only that, but I believe that in the same tape Grady raved about Deuels 9-ball game and how he felt he was the best 9-ball player at that time. Pretty nice things to say. I never got the feeling from Grady that there was any dislike whatsoever.

Regards,

Doug


I believe its the Daulton/Deuel one pocket match (Deuel hardbreaks) on which Grady does commentary and tells of how Deuel asked him how to get better or to the next level.

Grady tells him to get some money together and gamble rotation with Efren which Corey did. If Grady doesn't like him (which I don't believe) he at the very least respects the hell out of him.

Page 73 of Grady's autobiography shows him being presented the trophy for the '85 Red's One Pocket by Scott Smith and Red Walling.

macguy
05-10-2006, 09:20 PM
Jay:
Quote:No offense Grady, but Ronnie won the One Pocket at Red's in 1985. I was his backer and he beat Jeff Carter in the finals. You may have won it in 1986. I didn't go back the next year.

I guess my winning trophy for the Red's One Pocket is a misprint as it clearly says 1985. (See following photo.)

Cuetechasaurus' quote:
We all know you don't like Efren and never have.

That wasn't a nice thing to say and it is completely untrue. The photo (that follows) of my 2nd place finish in Virginia Beach in 1985 proves that I was at the tournament where Efren had his passport taken and was arrested. Shortly after this tournament, I offered to help Efren with his Visa problems and helping him with anything he might need in the US.
This tournament holds a special place in my memory because I lost my first match to David Howard 10-2 and then won 9 matches in a row including victories over Dave Bowman, Mike Lebron, Steve Mizerak, and other notables.
I have never been anti any ethnic group or country. What I have been is pro American. It has always bothered me, although I never said so, that the Billys and the Freddies of the pool world would pull against me when I'd play an Efren.
I may be the only player who has defeated Efren, Parica, Buddy, Bugs, Ronnie Allen, Artie from Chicago and a host of others, playing them all even and betting my own money.


I was there, wasn't there something funny about the tournament where some backer put in like half the field to make the tournament happen? I sort of remember you playing Ronnie for a $1000. a game and robbing him.

rackmsuckr
05-10-2006, 09:35 PM
Jay:
Quote:No offense Grady, but Ronnie won the One Pocket at Red's in 1985. I was his backer and he beat Jeff Carter in the finals. You may have won it in 1986. I didn't go back the next year.

I guess my winning trophy for the Red's One Pocket is a misprint as it clearly says 1985. (See following photo.)

Cuetechasaurus' quote:
We all know you don't like Efren and never have.

That wasn't a nice thing to say and it is completely untrue. The photo (that follows) of my 2nd place finish in Virginia Beach in 1985 proves that I was at the tournament where Efren had his passport taken and was arrested. Shortly after this tournament, I offered to help Efren with his Visa problems and helping him with anything he might need in the US.
This tournament holds a special place in my memory because I lost my first match to David Howard 10-2 and then won 9 matches in a row including victories over Dave Bowman, Mike Lebron, Steve Mizerak, and other notables.
I have never been anti any ethnic group or country. What I have been is pro American. It has always bothered me, although I never said so, that the Billys and the Freddies of the pool world would pull against me when I'd play an Efren.
I may be the only player who has defeated Efren, Parica, Buddy, Bugs, Ronnie Allen, Artie from Chicago and a host of others, playing them all even and betting my own money.

You're awesome, Grady!

JoeyA
05-10-2006, 10:07 PM
I've known Grady for quite a long time and he has confided in me about many things and I have NEVER heard Grady talk in a disparaging way about Efren. He has NEVER said that he disliked Efren, at least to me and never in front of me. I would have remembered that as I am a big fan of the Magician although I have never had the opportunity to play him.
JoeyA

I don't see why you are playing the race card when I wasn't. I just pointed out that you have always seemed to have something against Efren for a long time. I've saw it in your 'after hours' gambling match where you lost against him and complained that he got lucky (which he didn't), I've listened to it in your many commentaries (even though I enjoy your commentary), and I've read it in your posts. I never said you have anything against anyone of another race. I know you aren't like that. I said that you just don't like Efren, and alot of people know that you don't like him.

jazznpool
05-10-2006, 10:32 PM
Right on Grady!

Martin


Thanks a lot, Bill

JoeyInCali
05-11-2006, 02:27 AM
I've saw it in your 'after hours' gambling match where you lost against him
Was it the big match at Hard Times or the one in Derby City?
thnx

freddy the beard
05-11-2006, 03:18 AM
:
That wasn't a nice thing to say and it is completely untrue.... It has always bothered me, although I never said so, that the Billys and the Freddies of the pool world would pull against me when I'd play an Efren.


I'm going to use your quote myself, "That wasn't a nice thing to say and it is completely untrue." What did you base that conclusion on? In Billy's (Cardone) case he pulls against you playing everybody. You made it sound like I wasn't Pro-American. I bet against Efren --and lost-- against everybody he played at Red's in Houston, including when Wade Crane got 3games on the wire going to 13 in the finals. I bet on Keith playing him on the bar table. I bet on Jimmy Reid playing him in the quarterfinals. When Effie came to Chicago I played him and Parica every day for a year trying to beat 'em. I bet against Effie when he gave Cardone the 8 & the break in Chicago. I bet against him when he beat Bugs for 30k. In truth, as much as I do like the guy, I have never bet on him! That speaks more of my loyalty to the USA boys then my good sense. The only time I was ever on his side in a match was when I coached him against you in the Childress Tournament. I had zero money up in the match, and I did it more as an ego thing, to match my wits against yours. If you remember, when he wouldn't take a scratch I told him to take, and lost the game on the next shot -- even getting a free-roll on the money -- I quit as his coach and you went ahead and beat him from there. I took the Filipino invasion as personal as anybody.

the Beard

1pocket
05-11-2006, 04:28 AM
I've known Grady for quite a long time and he has confided in me about many things and I have NEVER heard Grady talk in a disparaging way about Efren. He has NEVER said that he disliked Efren, at least to me and never in front of me. I would have remembered that as I am a big fan of the Magician although I have never had the opportunity to play him.
JoeyA
I'm with you, Joey -- there's a huge amount of respect there, IMO. Of course there was a rivalry, too, but over time what I have seen is the respect far outstrip the rivalry.

Both Grady and Efren are members of the One Pocket Hall of Fame, and Efren has attended both of our HOF dinners with a huge smile on his face the whole time -- the smile often as a result of Grady's performance as master of ceremonies.

Just my opinion, but I don't think anyone should be making their judgement solely on what they have heard in match commentary or on-line forums. Without spending time around these guys in person, you are really not in a position to judge much about what they are really like -- and that goes for the stars of the game, right down to the lowliest members of the forums. I've met tons of forum members at Derby City, etc, and it never ceases to amaze me how much more likable people are in person :) or occasionally dislikable :)

Anyway, here is a photo of Grady & Efren at the first One Pocket HOF dinner at Derby City January 2005 when Efren was inducted...

jay helfert
05-11-2006, 05:10 AM
Jay:
Quote:No offense Grady, but Ronnie won the One Pocket at Red's in 1985. I was his backer and he beat Jeff Carter in the finals. You may have won it in 1986. I didn't go back the next year.

I guess my winning trophy for the Red's One Pocket is a misprint as it clearly says 1985. (See following photo.)

Cuetechasaurus' quote:
We all know you don't like Efren and never have.

That wasn't a nice thing to say and it is completely untrue. The photo (that follows) of my 2nd place finish in Virginia Beach in 1985 proves that I was at the tournament where Efren had his passport taken and was arrested. Shortly after this tournament, I offered to help Efren with his Visa problems and helping him with anything he might need in the US.
This tournament holds a special place in my memory because I lost my first match to David Howard 10-2 and then won 9 matches in a row including victories over Dave Bowman, Mike Lebron, Steve Mizerak, and other notables.
I have never been anti any ethnic group or country. What I have been is pro American. It has always bothered me, although I never said so, that the Billys and the Freddies of the pool world would pull against me when I'd play an Efren.
I may be the only player who has defeated Efren, Parica, Buddy, Bugs, Ronnie Allen, Artie from Chicago and a host of others, playing them all even and betting my own money.

My apologies Grady. Ronnie must have won in 1984. I'm going to call him and confirm the year. For some reason I thought he won the same year that Efren arrived. Getting old is a *****, and I must be getting old.

I know I played you one year in the One Pocket at Red's. It was a money match and you got me. I had a chance to win and missed an open shot. I remember that!

Grady
05-11-2006, 05:21 AM
I don't want to get into a big flame war on this venerable site but Cuetechasaurus is way out of line coming on a public forum and saying that I don't like someone. I've gone out of my way to be nice to all the players except Hopkins and Charlie Williams. That should be self explanatory.
I love Freddie, too and we've had our differences over the years. But try to remember, Freddie when you chortled with glee when I was beating one of the Philipinos or when one of them wouldn't play.
Here's a deal for you, Cuetechasaurus. Let's see what you're really made of. I'll bet you $10,000 or $2,000 if you'd rather that when Efren is asked if I like him or dislike him, he'll instantly say that I like him a lot.
Lastly, only a complete idiot couldn't see that Efren got lucky in that celebrated match we played. I may get into this aspect of Efren's game at a later time because I think everyone would thoroughly enjoy it. What I'm leading up to is this: Efren's luck, despite his really being a great player, transcends that of normal human beings and enters the realm of the supernatural. Freddie can weigh in real heavily on this topic, as he's seen lots of what I'm talking about.
Moderator, I respectfully call for either an apology from Cuetechasaurus or him being banned from this site.

pete lafond
05-11-2006, 05:53 AM
Thanks guys...

Hey Bill, great pictures again. Thanks so much.

uwate
05-11-2006, 05:54 AM
Grady can you tell us a bit more about the after hours match? I have seen that match once and its a fantastic action match. Was it shot at the Willards tournament at the Pheasant Run Resort outside of Chicago in 1992?

I do remember one part of the match near the end when you have Efren uptable near the top rail with like 5 balls in front of your pocket. Efren shoots a shot he ends up with the cueball near your pocket and you have no shot. The natural sound on the tape picks up you commenting that Efren just made the greatest shot you have ever seen. Was this the shot that you feel Efren got lucky on?

I will have to watch that tape again. My memory of it is that Efren ran out pretty good, you made some really tremendous short rail banks lagging at your pocket and that you showed alot of heart to bring the match to double hill.

BillPorter
05-11-2006, 06:22 AM
Let me admit right off that I have NO REAL INFORMATION on who likes or dislikes whom, but exercising my right to free speech, I'd just like to ask forum members to tell me one thing; who DOESN'T like Efren? I understand that Jose Parica has expressed a bit of bitterness at times about all the fame and adulation Efren has garnered and has stated on several occasions that he (Parica) holds a winning record in matches against Efren, so maybe he doesn't like him. The few times I have interacted with Efren, he was as friendly and sweet natured as you could ask for.

cardiac kid
05-11-2006, 06:58 AM
Lastly, only a complete idiot couldn't see that Efren got lucky in that celebrated match we played. I may get into this aspect of Efren's game at a later time because I think everyone would thoroughly enjoy it. What I'm leading up to is this: Efren's luck, despite his really being a great player, transcends that of normal human beings and enters the realm of the supernatural.

Grady,

Like most places in America, we have several high quality Asian players here in Rochester. One thing they all have in common is a quote they make after winning a match. "I was luuucky"! I believe it must have something to do with religions of the far east. They truely believe they will be lucky, therefore they are. I must agree that Efren is nearly godlike in that area.

Lyn

BallBuster
05-11-2006, 07:07 AM
i have two theories about the "lucky" thing... the first is they don't really want to explain much about the winning, especially explaining it in english language, they don't have that much vocabulary.... another is these Pinoy-cueists gambles a lot... and whenever you win in gambling, its always feel-good to say you are lucky so you don't let your opponent think you are really a great player than he is... who knows he might play you next time thinking you could not be as lucky... :-)

Craig Fales
05-11-2006, 07:38 AM
i have two theories about the "lucky" thing... the first is they don't really want to explain much about the winning, especially explaining it in english language, they don't have that much vocabulary.... another is these Pinoy-cueists gambles a lot... and whenever you win in gambling, its always feel-good to say you are lucky so you don't let your opponent think you are really a great player than he is... who knows he might play you next time thinking you could not be as lucky... :-)

LOLz...kinda like running 3 - 4 racks and saying "Huh, musta got lucky....probably won't happen again." :D
________

Grady
05-11-2006, 08:17 AM
OK, to answer some questions about the match between me and Efren: I think it was at Pheasant Run, but not positive about that or the year. We're hill-hill and he shoots a thin cut shot at his pocket at warp speed and sends the cue ball into the wrong side of the stack. Before he does this I have an advantage in the lie of the balls; so you'd think that by crashing into the wrong side of the stack that he'd have to sell out but no, our stalwart not only doesn't leave me a shot-he totally locks me up.
I mean there's no safety, no offensive shot, no nothing and when guys who don't bet their own money do that to me I admit I hate it but it doesn't in any way mean that I dislike them. And yes, I'm probably gonna say they were lucky.
Talking and thinking about this match gets me to recalling other interesting shots and situations. Maybe I'll do a DVD with just shots of the past. I can think of 5 or 6 just of Efren creations, one of which a pool-smart old-timer friend of mine called "The worst beat I've ever seen." He's right. It practically defies description.

freddy the beard
05-11-2006, 10:44 AM
I'm going to address a couple of the previous threads. #1 is, like Efren? Of course, he is probably the sweetest most gracious champion we have ever had. Plus, I like all the Filipinos, Jose Parica most of all. And they like me. They have always been friendly and respectful to me. Probably because of my relationships with Effie and Jose. #2 Grady and I hardly ever agree, but as sick as it may sound, I too think that Efren's luck borders on the supernatural. I've tried to view it as objectively as possible, but I still am of the same opinion that as great as he plays, his luck is phenomenal. I will add another tid-bit however, the second luckiest player I ever seen was Luther Lassiter. Coincidence? Maybe it just goes with the territory. In my own experience the better I shot, the luckier I got. So maybe that explains it. #3 I dont really recall "chortling" at Grady playing the Filipinos. Especially since I never had a financial interest in any of those matches. If I did, I'm sure I probably had a selfish, sinister motive, maybe to heat him up and have him get out of line with me some kind of way. If that was the case it was strictly business not personal.

the Beard

gulfportdoc
05-12-2006, 06:08 AM
I watched an Accu-stats 1P tape of the 1999 Derby City match between Efren and Nick Varner. Grady and Billy Incardone were commentating. Grady was very complimentary toward Efren, and praised his expertise-- even during the early games when Efren's game was way off.

Doc

sixpack
05-12-2006, 07:16 AM
OK, to answer some questions about the match between me and Efren: I think it was at Pheasant Run, but not positive about that or the year. We're hill-hill and he shoots a thin cut shot at his pocket at warp speed and sends the cue ball into the wrong side of the stack. Before he does this I have an advantage in the lie of the balls; so you'd think that by crashing into the wrong side of the stack that he'd have to sell out but no, our stalwart not only doesn't leave me a shot-he totally locks me up.
I mean there's no safety, no offensive shot, no nothing and when guys who don't bet their own money do that to me I admit I hate it but it doesn't in any way mean that I dislike them. And yes, I'm probably gonna say they were lucky.
Talking and thinking about this match gets me to recalling other interesting shots and situations. Maybe I'll do a DVD with just shots of the past. I can think of 5 or 6 just of Efren creations, one of which a pool-smart old-timer friend of mine called "The worst beat I've ever seen." He's right. It practically defies description.

In honor of this thread, I had some San Miguel beer and watched the Accu-Stats tape of you and Efren from the legends of one-pocket tournament. (I know, the sacrifices I make for this forum :) ) Buddy Hall and Nick Varner were commentating.

Based on my calculations, he had three lucky rolls to your one. Nick and Buddy thought two other shots of Efren's were lucky, but I watched them a couple of times and am convinced that they were difficult shots that he managed to execute and got away with...which might be the same as a lucky roll, but at least seemed like he was trying to do what he did.

For the record, there was no negative body language or any other indication that either of these players held each other in anything but the utmost respect. And it was a LONG match.

Thanks for all you add to this forum.

RC

uwate
05-12-2006, 07:29 AM
In honor of this thread, I had some San Miguel beer and watched the Accu-Stats tape of you and Efren from the legends of one-pocket tournament. (I know, the sacrifices I make for this forum :) ) Buddy Hall and Nick Varner were commentating.

Based on my calculations, he had three lucky rolls to your one. Nick and Buddy thought two other shots of Efren's were lucky, but I watched them a couple of times and am convinced that they were difficult shots that he managed to execute and got away with...which might be the same as a lucky roll, but at least seemed like he was trying to do what he did.

For the record, there was no negative body language or any other indication that either of these players held each other in anything but the utmost respect. And it was a LONG match.

Thanks for all you add to this forum.

RC
Sixpack, the match in question here is not that one. Its an after hours match that was shot single camera only, no commentary. The table is a gold crown and it looks like the setup from the Willards tournament that you can see in an old match accustats has with Buddy hall vs George breedlove. This match goes 4-3 whereas the one you are referring to is 4-1 (1998 LO1P).

Black-Balled
05-12-2006, 07:41 AM
...Efren's luck, despite his really being a great player, transcends that of normal human beings and enters the realm of the supernatural...

I won't be the first to say this, but, Grady- you really have a knack for our language. That is a great sentence!

JoeyA
05-12-2006, 08:08 AM
Bill, I don't know if Jose likes Efren or not but it is unlikely that he dislikes Efren. If there is anything there it COULD be some jealousy but even that is a matter of perspective. I have seen many poolplayers make negative comments about another pool player's abilities/records etc in the heat of battle or shortly thereafter.

Everyone that is a competitor is capable of expressing some bittnerness right after an important loss to another competitor. Sometimes THAT bitterness is directed at why the other competitor won and is just an emotional outburst and has little to do with how one actually feels about another person.
JoeyA

Let me admit right off that I have NO REAL INFORMATION on who likes or dislikes whom, but exercising my right to free speech, I'd just like to ask forum members to tell me one thing; who DOESN'T like Efren? I understand that Jose Parica has expressed a bit of bitterness at times about all the fame and adulation Efren has garnered and has stated on several occasions that he (Parica) holds a winning record in matches against Efren, so maybe he doesn't like him. The few times I have interacted with Efren, he was as friendly and sweet natured as you could ask for.

sixpack
05-12-2006, 08:26 AM
Sixpack, the match in question here is not that one. Its an after hours match that was shot single camera only, no commentary. The table is a gold crown and it looks like the setup from the Willards tournament that you can see in an old match accustats has with Buddy hall vs George breedlove. This match goes 4-3 whereas the one you are referring to is 4-1 (1998 LO1P).

Yes, I know. I was commenting on the general comment that Efren gets more luck than anybody else.

Cheers,
RC

jay helfert
05-12-2006, 08:43 AM
I'm going to address a couple of the previous threads. #1 is, like Efren? Of course, he is probably the sweetest most gracious champion we have ever had. Plus, I like all the Filipinos, Jose Parica most of all. And they like me. They have always been friendly and respectful to me. Probably because of my relationships with Effie and Jose. #2 Grady and I hardly ever agree, but as sick as it may sound, I too think that Efren's luck borders on the supernatural. I've tried to view it as objectively as possible, but I still am of the same opinion that as great as he plays, his luck is phenomenal. I will add another tid-bit however, the second luckiest player I ever seen was Luther Lassiter. Coincidence? Maybe it just goes with the territory. In my own experience the better I shot, the luckier I got. So maybe that explains it. #3 I dont really recall "chortling" at Grady playing the Filipinos. Especially since I never had a financial interest in any of those matches. If I did, I'm sure I probably had a selfish, sinister motive, maybe to heat him up and have him get out of line with me some kind of way. If that was the case it was strictly business not personal.

the Beard

So now we know what it takes to be a great player. LUCK! Righhhttttttttt.
Efren's been getting the rolls in One Pocket for almost 20 years and Lassiter got all the rolls in 9-Ball for 30 years. Pretty fortunate fellows.

Of course when Effie is cutting those balls backward from off the end rail and Lassiter wasn't missing anything for days, it was more good fortune. I saw Luther play Straight Pool many, many matches and I could count on one hand all the shots he ever missed. And spot you a couple of fingers. To this day, I have never seen anyone remotely close to Efren in his ability to run balls when they are all down table.

All kidding aside, I will agree with Freddie on one important point. The good players get the rolls. It has to do with the choice of shots and how they execute them.

Hal
05-12-2006, 08:49 AM
Better players are also at the table MORE. They get more rolls because they're at the table making more shots. JMHO.

pete-biker
05-12-2006, 12:33 PM
About luck...

have you guys never heard a saying "more you practice, luckier you get" and if you have, have you really understood it?


And that's about it.

hustler
05-12-2006, 03:20 PM
I watched an Accu-stats 1P tape of the 1999 Derby City match between Efren and Nick Varner. Grady and Billy Incardone were commentating. Grady was very complimentary toward Efren, and praised his expertise-- even during the early games when Efren's game was way off.

Doc

I was thinking the same thing. I have some Efren/Archer matches and I never heard him say anything out of line. In fact all I heard too was complimentary...like Efren would scratch his head and Grady would say something like (and I am paraphrasing) " uh oh Efrens scatching the back of his head and when he scratches his head that usually means he is going to come up with some incredible shot" And then Efren proceeds to make some crazy kick and Grady just says "I am speechless. I just dont know what else to say":D

cuetechasaurus
05-12-2006, 05:24 PM
Ok, I retract my statement. Grady does not-not like Efren, he is just bitter towards him because he thinks he is lucky. I apologize for not being able to distinguish between an obvious bitterness and dislike stemmed from rivalry. You say Efren has supernatural luck, most other players say Efren is just really good, or they say that 'the better you play, the luckier you get'- a phrase which I might remind you doesn't actually mean what it states.

I just found it somewhat annoying that we were talking about Efren when he first came to the USA in another thread, and you (Grady) had to chime in and remind everyone that YOU won the one pocket event, and that YOU have beaten Efren playing even. It reminds me of people throwing a birthday party for some kid and another kid starts whining because nobody is celebrating his birthday, which is a few months later. We all apologize you weren't getting enough attention in that thread, even though it wasn't about you at all. To make ammends, I propose that from now on, we all must at least mention one of Grady's many accomplishments in each and every thread we post, even if it's just about cue tips. :rolleyes:

wayne
05-12-2006, 07:24 PM
Ok, I retract my statement. Grady does not-not like Efren, he is just bitter towards him because he thinks he is lucky. I apologize for not being able to distinguish between an obvious bitterness and dislike stemmed from rivalry. You say Efren has supernatural luck, most other players say Efren is just really good, or they say that 'the better you play, the luckier you get'- a phrase which I might remind you doesn't actually mean what it states.

I just found it somewhat annoying that we were talking about Efren when he first came to the USA in another thread, and you (Grady) had to chime in and remind everyone that YOU won the one pocket event, and that YOU have beaten Efren playing even. It reminds me of people throwing a birthday party for some kid and another kid starts whining because nobody is celebrating his birthday, which is a few months later. We all apologize you weren't getting enough attention in that thread, even though it wasn't about you at all. To make ammends, I propose that from now on, we all must at least mention one of Grady's many accomplishments in each and every thread we post, even if it's just about cue tips. :rolleyes:

WOW! I figured out how the reputation works. I didn't know there was a ranking. If you click on "Member List" at the top of the page and then click on "Reputation" you can see how all the members rank. For example GRADY is ranked around 32 out of 4806. It cracked me up when I looked at who has the worst reputation at 4806 and it is cuetechasaurus. That would make him the most hated poster which makes sense. Maybe the moderator could do a ban on the most hated poster once every few weeks, kind of like the GONG show.

Wayne

AzHousePro
05-12-2006, 07:31 PM
I propose from now on we don't personally attack other users on the forums.

So, try not to do that when you come back from your week away from the forums.

Mike

To make ammends, I propose that from now on, we all must at least mention one of Grady's many accomplishments in each and every thread we post, even if it's just about cue tips. :rolleyes:

wayne
05-12-2006, 07:36 PM
A couple of comments:

Efren and Jose Parica are very friendly towards each other in person, I observed them once at Hollywood Billiards, spending a long time talking and laughing together for no reason other than they enjoyed each others company. I had heard the rumors to the contrary prior to this but watching them together dispelled the rumors.

A person with a very positive outlook in any aspect of life or games will have good things happen much more often that a person with a negative outlook. Conversely, a person with a negative outlook will have a lot more bad things happen. Efren may have the most positive outlook of anyone on a pool table which might explain some of the luck factor.

Wayne (WOW, he GONGED pretty quick LOL)

bud green
05-13-2006, 08:30 AM
Grady also jokes about how there is a school in Mexico that teaches players how to luck balls in, get all the rolls...

I don't take any of this Grady-doesn't-like Efren stuff seriously. Every pool player remembers the lucky shots others have had against them. At the $$ level Grady gambles at, those memories are probably hard to forget.

Efren vs Parica?

Didn't Efren say Parica was his idol, or at least favorite player, when he learned to play pool? I doubt Parica has any problem with Efren, he just gets tired of hearing that Efren is much better than him. Efren definately has won bigger events the last ten years and OWNS one pocket these days, but the 20 years of Jose being maybe the top money player in the world makes a case for Jose being right up there.

People forget some of Parica's victories like the Roanoke one pocket tourney where he won 15 out of 16 games his last three matches to win the tournement. I think he also won one of the biggest prize money tourneys in Asia years ago- maybe late 80's where 40 or 50 grand was a huge payout for pool.

degenrat
05-13-2006, 09:17 AM
i have an opinion on luck based on another sport.

In tournament poker the belief is simple: Great players put themselves in a position to get lucky at the right times.

Is a little roll lucky sometimes? sure. But the great ones get lucky when it counts.

Me, i don't get lucky. :)

Harvywallbanger
05-13-2006, 09:25 AM
Luck or no luck, they go where you hit them. If a guy has been getting lucky for 30 straight years maybe its time to concede that he is doing something differently than most players that earns him the right to get the good rolls.

thebighurt
05-13-2006, 11:27 AM
Reading these posts makes me laugh. I got a great idea for all you guys who are complaining about how lucky Efren is. Just challenge him to a call every shot match, without his luck you guys are stealing. Give me a break!!! You are right about him being lucky in one respect, he is lucky that all the pool tournaments don't bar him for playing to good! If Efren misses a ball and leaves a guy 8 feet way and the cueball frozen to the rail, his opponent misses the shot and complains about how lucky Efren was to leave him on the rail, where as if the roles were reversed Efren fires the ball in from off the rail and the guy complains how he couldn't get a break and hook efren instead he left him a makeable shot from the rail. It is good for everybodies EGOS to say Efren is the luckiest player. The fact is that Efren is the best player and when people play him they tighten up and most of the time are looking for an excuse to lose. The differenece is Efren capitalizes to the fullest on any openings and doesn't worry about the rolls. The truth of the matter is, the only chance anybody has to beat him is to get the majority of the rolls. If the rolls are even he wins because he is the best. It is like Tiger, if everybody plays there absolute best and the rolls are equal, Tiger wins period. Here is a list of some of the luckiest people ever: Michael Jordan, Babe Ruth, Pete Sampras, Tiger Woods, Edwin Moses, Willie Mosconi, Jerry Rice and Joe Montana( 2 lucky stiffs)

wayne
05-13-2006, 12:01 PM
Reading these posts makes me laugh. I got a great idea for all you guys who are complaining about how lucky Efren is. Just challenge him to a call every shot match, without his luck you guys are stealing. Give me a break!!! You are right about him being lucky in one respect, he is lucky that all the pool tournaments don't bar him for playing to good! If Efren misses a ball and leaves a guy 8 feet way and the cueball frozen to the rail, his opponent misses the shot and complains about how lucky Efren was to leave him on the rail, where as if the roles were reversed Efren fires the ball in from off the rail and the guy complains how he couldn't get a break and hook efren instead he left him a makeable shot from the rail. It is good for everybodies EGOS to say Efren is the luckiest player. The fact is that Efren is the best player and when people play him they tighten up and most of the time are looking for an excuse to lose. The differenece is Efren capitalizes to the fullest on any openings and doesn't worry about the rolls. The truth of the matter is, the only chance anybody has to beat him is to get the majority of the rolls. If the rolls are even he wins because he is the best. It is like Tiger, if everybody plays there absolute best and the rolls are equal, Tiger wins period. Here is a list of some of the luckiest people ever: Michael Jordan, Babe Ruth, Pete Sampras, Tiger Woods, Edwin Moses, Willie Mosconi, Jerry Rice and Joe Montana( 2 lucky stiffs)

I don't think anyone doesn't think Efren is a superstar player and most would concede he is the best in the world. That being said he may be the luckiest player in the world besides being the best. I am sure Strickland will never forget the kick Efren made to win their hill-hill match. Was Efren lucky? Absolutely! Lucky to hit it? No. Lucky to make it. Absolutely! I believe this is an example of the point people are making. I have observed this personally on a number of occasions. Some people are luckier than others. I have never observed this in any of the other superstars you named. I have seen it often with card players where luck plays a very big role, some of the best card players in the world have an unusual amount of luck.

Wayne

thebighurt
05-13-2006, 03:13 PM
You just made my point for me exactly. You left out the part that efren played a dead nut safe on Strickland that would of won Efren the tournament but the 5 ball hit the 8 ball in and Efren was hooked instead. The 8 ball getting knocked in was a horrible roll but everyone leaves that out and focuses on Efren kicking the ball in. Just so you know there was luck in him making it but for you to say he was lucky to hit it you are sadly mistaken. If you wanted to bet him even money on him hitting it he would bust you. He is by far the best 3 cushion POOL PLAYER. My point is what distorts everybodies view on the subject is the rolls even out. What happens is when some of the top pros get the rolls they still don't win so there is no reason to mention how lucky they got and the luck they had does not stand out to you because they lost. When Efren is getting lucky he always capitalizes on it and wins so it lucks to everybody how lucky he is.

rackmsuckr
05-13-2006, 04:06 PM
I am sure Strickland will never forget the kick Efren made to win their hill-hill match. Was Efren lucky? Absolutely! Lucky to hit it? No. Lucky to make it. Absolutely!
Wayne

I am surprised at your answer, since I believe you to be a pretty good player. Are you saying that when I make a 3 rail kick that it is luck to make it? How about just a 1 rail kick? Now how about when the ball is just hanging? That's lucky? No, it's lucky (heavy sarcasm) that we know how to kick on the first rail. Whether it is a system or intuition, we know what a given bank with the cueball will produce. Move the object ball up the rail, and you adjust your spot on the 1st rail.

Now, I saw Efren go to the end of the table and look at the spot on the rail he would need to get to, to make the shot. Right then, he was probably calculating where he would need to hit on the first rail. Just because people don't know the Z bank or kick, doesn't mean there isn't a formula to calculate it. I was doing them last night in practice, putting a cube of chalk on the end rail and Z kicking it.

I also put chalk randomly on the table and did 1-4 rail kicks from random spots on the table, wherever the cueball landed. I do this for practice so I don't have to put in dollars for balls, lol. Do I make them every time? No, but I almost always do hit the chalk (or balls).

Like everything, it just takes practice to hone, and figure out how a table is running. With knowledge and practice, your odds and percentages of actually making a ball go up drastically. So how much 'luck' was really involved in that shot? I have seen Efren go 3 rails and feed through a tight path between 2 balls off the 3rd rail, because of his knowledge of the rails.

Luck? I am sure all his years of 3C and rotation with all 15 balls gave him a pretty good idea of where his ball was going; he wasn't just closing his eyes and hoping. The miracle of it was that he could shake off the 'unlucky' roll he got by making the other ball, instead of locking Earl up.

Also, that the pressure of the moment didn't mess up his thinking!

Sure, I guess there is always luck involved - even making a straight-in shot, lol. Or a straight-in bank shot. But the more knowlegeable you are, the more opportunities for success open up, and the more authority you can hit the shot with.

I'm just making an observation that he was prepared with the knowledge of what he needed to do - plus speed and english.

wayne
05-13-2006, 06:34 PM
You just made my point for me exactly. You left out the part that efren played a dead nut safe on Strickland that would of won Efren the tournament but the 5 ball hit the 8 ball in and Efren was hooked instead. The 8 ball getting knocked in was a horrible roll but everyone leaves that out and focuses on Efren kicking the ball in. Just so you know there was luck in him making it but for you to say he was lucky to hit it you are sadly mistaken. If you wanted to bet him even money on him hitting it he would bust you. He is by far the best 3 cushion POOL PLAYER. My point is what distorts everybodies view on the subject is the rolls even out. What happens is when some of the top pros get the rolls they still don't win so there is no reason to mention how lucky they got and the luck they had does not stand out to you because they lost. When Efren is getting lucky he always capitalizes on it and wins so it lucks to everybody how lucky he is.

If you read what I said again you will see that I said that no he wasn't lucky to hit it but that he was lucky to make it. If he was to shoot this type of shot 100 times he would probably make the hit 95% of the time but would probably not make the ball more that 5%-10% of the time.

Wayne

wayne
05-13-2006, 06:47 PM
I am surprised at your answer, since I believe you to be a pretty good player. Are you saying that when I make a 3 rail kick that it is luck to make it? How about just a 1 rail kick? Now how about when the ball is just hanging? That's lucky? No, it's lucky (heavy sarcasm) that we know how to kick on the first rail. Whether it is a system or intuition, we know what a given bank with the cueball will produce. Move the object ball up the rail, and you adjust your spot on the 1st rail.

Now, I saw Efren go to the end of the table and look at the spot on the rail he would need to get to, to make the shot. Right then, he was probably calculating where he would need to hit on the first rail. Just because people don't know the Z bank or kick, doesn't mean there isn't a formula to calculate it. I was doing them last night in practice, putting a cube of chalk on the end rail and Z kicking it.

I also put chalk randomly on the table and did 1-4 rail kicks from random spots on the table, wherever the cueball landed. I do this for practice so I don't have to put in dollars for balls, lol. Do I make them every time? No, but I almost always do hit the chalk (or balls).

Like everything, it just takes practice to hone, and figure out how a table is running. With knowledge and practice, your odds and percentages of actually making a ball go up drastically. So how much 'luck' was really involved in that shot? I have seen Efren go 3 rails and feed through a tight path between 2 balls off the 3rd rail, because of his knowledge of the rails.

Luck? I am sure all his years of 3C and rotation with all 15 balls gave him a pretty good idea of where his ball was going; he wasn't just closing his eyes and hoping. The miracle of it was that he could shake off the 'unlucky' roll he got by making the other ball, instead of locking Earl up.

Also, that the pressure of the moment didn't mess up his thinking!

Sure, I guess there is always luck involved - even making a straight-in shot, lol. Or a straight-in bank shot. But the more knowlegeable you are, the more opportunities for success open up, and the more authority you can hit the shot with.

I'm just making an observation that he was prepared with the knowledge of what he needed to do - plus speed and english.

I am sure if you asked Efren he would say he got very lucky to make that ball.
(Of course he always says he got lucky.) If you set up that shot and told him you were willing to bet a thousand dollars to his one hundred he couldn't make it I GUARANTEE you he would not take the bet. As good as Efren is and as good as he kicks, that was a miracle shot. Why did Earl get so excited when he saw where Efren left himself? The odds of Earl winning from that position are huge. Efren made one of his greatest kicks ever, there was a ton of skill involved but it was no hanger. (Maybe we have different definitions of lucky.)

There was a one-pocket tournament a couple of years ago when it looked like I would have to face Efren in the quarter-finals but Morro beat him and then I beat Morro. I got lucky!

Two consecutive one pocket tournaments last year I drew Efren as my opening match. I got unlucky!

LOL
Wayne

ShootingArts
05-13-2006, 07:42 PM
One reason Efren is far luckier than the average pro player on the shots where he really has to reach down deep is that he plays them probably at least ten times more often. Over and over when almost any other player would be going for a safety Efren is going for the win with a harder shot. Ten times the practice trying the low percentage shots under tournament pressure will make a person much "luckier" when trying the shot than people who rarely if ever try the same type of shot.

Hu


I am sure if you asked Efren he would say he got very lucky to make that ball.
(Of course he always says he got lucky.) If you set up that shot and told him you were willing to bet a thousand dollars to his one hundred he couldn't make it I GUARANTEE you he would not take the bet. As good as Efren is and as good as he kicks, that was a miracle shot. Why did Earl get so excited when he saw where Efren left himself? The odds of Earl winning from that position are huge. Efren made one of his greatest kicks ever, there was a ton of skill involved but it was no hanger. (Maybe we have different definitions of lucky.)

There was a one-pocket tournament a couple of years ago when it looked like I would have to face Efren in the quarter-finals but Morro beat him and then I beat Morro. I got lucky!

Two consecutive one pocket tournaments last year I drew Efren as my opening match. I got unlucky!

LOL
Wayne

Nostroke
05-13-2006, 08:24 PM
I am sure if you asked Efren he would say he got very lucky to make that ball.


Efren will tell you he was lucky on almost any shot.:)

I gotta say though- If you let him practice the shot for an hour. I will bet some on him at 10-1.

yobagua
05-13-2006, 10:06 PM
I was talking to Jose a couple of days ago. He casually expressed that Efren is playing better than him. Jose has always been a great player and warrior. And Efren has always given him that respect. And Vice Versa.

What makes me sad most of all is why you, Grady, and Billy cant bury your differences. The both of you made such a great team once. You both have the resume that most pros would dream of. When I saw you both play in a match game at the recent Derby I just had to walk out of the room seeing how personal the match was. Maybe Freddie can broker a truce. Hows about putting Billy in the One Pocket HOF next year. He certainly deserves it with his contribution to the game. It would be great if Grady handed it to him.

freddy the beard
05-14-2006, 03:26 AM
What makes me sad most of all is why you, Grady, and Billy cant bury your differences. The both of you made such a great team once. You both have the resume that most pros would dream of. When I saw you both play in a match game at the recent Derby I just had to walk out of the room seeing how personal the match was. Maybe Freddie can broker a truce. Hows about putting Billy in the One Pocket HOF next year. He certainly deserves it with his contribution to the game. It would be great if Grady handed it to him.

Great idea, Billy in the HOF. I'm sure Grady would be very gracious in his capacity as a HOF presenter.

the Beard

Terry Ardeno
05-14-2006, 04:46 AM
yobagua,
That was a great post! Thanks for expressing what so may wish would happen.
Part of your thread said "When I saw you both play in a match game at the recent Derby I just had to walk out of the room seeing how personal the match was. Maybe Freddie can broker a truce." Can you elaborate on this match? Was it during the tournament or was it a match up? (I hope you came back in before iy was over!) Who won? How did they act towards one another afterwards? Any info would be greatly, greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Terry

gulfportdoc
05-14-2006, 08:54 AM
Who won?
I believe Billy won the stakes match. It's in the threads somewhere-- possibly in the DCC forum.

Doc

Terry Ardeno
05-14-2006, 09:56 AM
Thanks Doc!
Terry

yobagua
05-14-2006, 02:26 PM
Thanks Terry
The match was in a side room for cash. The animosity and dislike between the two permeated through the room. It was sad IMHO. It was not a contest of skills but of egos. I think Grady got so riled up he shot at the wrong hole. I could be wrong about specifics as I couldnt take too much of it. Grady lost but I thought it was over before it finished.
I have a lot of respect for Grady and Billy. And truly believe if they can let bygones be bygones it would be great for us their fans.