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Hal
05-13-2006, 05:19 PM
I saw Buddy Hall shoot this the other day on BCN. He said about 5 times, "This is a spin shot. This is not a draw shot." I was thinking to myself that it didn't look that difficult. I have to admit that I can't make it. I can get past the side pocket, but I can't get the cue ball to come "long" up the table.

Both balls are one ball width off the rail.

Deadon
05-13-2006, 05:27 PM
Hi Hal;

What is your question about the shot?

Mike

Nostroke
05-13-2006, 05:45 PM
I saw Buddy Hall shoot this the other day on BCN. He said about 5 times, "This is a spin shot. This is not a draw shot." I was thinking to myself that it didn't look that difficult. I have to admit that I can't make it. I can get past the side pocket, but I can't get the cue ball to come "long" up the table.

Both balls are one ball width off the rail.

Are you trying to do it with no draw-taking Buddy literally?

frankncali
05-13-2006, 05:52 PM
I have been around some good players when they are talking about these type shots. Its something that has always stuck with me.

With just left I dont think you can come back that far. Even though
some of the players told me they just used the outside english to accomplish this I observed them hitting a little draw.
One finally told me that you dont try and draw the ball to the wanted position but rather try and draw the ball into the cushion and then the english will bring it back.
I think having a really good stroke helps. :D

lewdo26
05-13-2006, 05:58 PM
Buddy elevates on that shot to make sure the cueball isn't rolling uptable at contact. Tough cookie.

Nostroke
05-13-2006, 06:03 PM
Buddy elevates on that shot to make sure the cueball isn't rolling uptable at contact. Tough cookie.

Yeah exactly- There may not be any 'draw' when the CB arrives but it has to start with some so it's really about semantics and one's idea of what draw is as opposed to someone else's.

Rickw
05-13-2006, 06:14 PM
I took lessons from Buddy and I can tell you that if he said there's no draw, he meant that there is no draw. That man knows exactly where the tip of his cue is on the cb every time he shoots.

I watched him shoot stroke shots and he's unbelievable! He strokes the ball effortlessly and can make the cb do things like the shot you pictured without moving anything but his shooting arm. When he shoots a shot like that, he looks like he's shooting a 4 inch hanger.

Trust me, if he says he didn't use draw, he didn't use draw.

merylane
05-13-2006, 06:17 PM
Yeah exactly- There may not be any 'draw' when the CB arrives but it has to start with some so it's really about semantics and one's idea of what draw is as opposed to someone else's.


buddy freezes the cue ball on the rail and drills that shot, watched him shoot a couple doz. last weekend.

Nostroke
05-13-2006, 06:41 PM
I took lessons from Buddy and I can tell you that if he said there's no draw, he meant that there is no draw. That man knows exactly where the tip of his cue is on the cb every time he shoots.

I watched him shoot stroke shots and he's unbelievable! He strokes the ball effortlessly and can make the cb do things like the shot you pictured without moving anything but his shooting arm. When he shoots a shot like that, he looks like he's shooting a 4 inch hanger.

Trust me, if he says he didn't use draw, he didn't use draw.

OK so Buddy's definition of draw is any ball struck below center, not a CB ball arriving at the object ball with backspin. If so we can all talk about the same thing.

Anyway, Im a low 'C' player and the shot looks pretty much like a hanger to me (striking below center of course).

I once saw Buddy cut a ball on the center of the short rail, near razor thin, from the about 2 diamonds away, and stop the CB short of the side pocket. I still dont know how he did that one.

One more thing-Buddy according to the poster said
"This is a spin shot. This is not a draw shot." Im not sure that precludes a contact a smidgen below center.

It's George Old Owner
05-13-2006, 06:45 PM
wow i can just imagine this on the actual pool tbl..his stroke must be superb!

Rickw
05-13-2006, 07:25 PM
wow i can just imagine this on the actual pool tbl..his stroke must be superb!

He was showing me a shot that he said everyone else, including the pros, said was impossible and he did it. He's so fluid and powerful without looking like he's shooting hard at all. You see his stroke and you still don't believe it.

5ballcharlie
05-13-2006, 07:39 PM
I saw Buddy Hall shoot this the other day on BCN. He said about 5 times, "This is a spin shot. This is not a draw shot." I was thinking to myself that it didn't look that difficult. I have to admit that I can't make it. I can get past the side pocket, but I can't get the cue ball to come "long" up the table.

Both balls are one ball width off the rail.
Hey Hal, on buddy hall position play tape he says the same thing about this shot.... To execute it you must elevate your cue..

Craig Fales
05-13-2006, 08:58 PM
To elevate your cue you would put draw on the ball...just like a jump shot...
________

tedkaufman
05-13-2006, 08:59 PM
It's a stun shot with left english. Buddy is right--no draw. By no draw, he means no backspin. To play it, play it the way you'd hit that distance shot to make a stop shot, but with left spin added to bring the cue ball uptable off the rail.

It's George Old Owner
05-13-2006, 09:29 PM
He was showing me a shot that he said everyone else, including the pros, said was impossible and he did it. He's so fluid and powerful without looking like he's shooting hard at all. You see his stroke and you still don't believe it.
i can just imagine if i were there to c it for myself..i'd instantly jaw drop!

The Grinder
05-13-2006, 09:33 PM
I think that on a shot lke this the tendancy is to hit it to hard and not give the spin a chance to bring the ball back down table. IMHO

lewdo26
05-13-2006, 09:34 PM
Yep. Buddy Hall is right up there with Mizerak and Ronnie O'Sullivan in the "perfect stroke" category of players.

lewdo26
05-13-2006, 09:35 PM
I think that on a shot lke this the tendancy is to hit it to hard and not give the spin a chance to bring the ball back down table. IMHOVery good. I think that's exactly the way Buddy shoots it. Just enough speed to stun it to the rail and then the spin does the rest. If you pound it I think it'd come way short.

Hal
05-14-2006, 01:17 AM
Yeah I know he elevated. I watched him do it. He used a closed bridge from the rail. That in itself gives you plenty of elevation. I'm also using extreme bottom left english. As much as I can possibly put on the cue ball. Like 20 tips (according to some of you :D).

I didn't really have a question. I was just saying that it's a tough shot. I've since come close a time or two, but I still can't get the cue ball to come up table like he did. His cue ball hit the rail at about the same spot where he shot it. Mine hits way before that. Like this:

Deadon
05-14-2006, 01:17 AM
Yeah exactly- There may not be any 'draw' when the CB arrives but it has to start with some so it's really about semantics and one's idea of what draw is as opposed to someone else's.

Its exactly what he means. What you start with isn't important, its what you end up with. Although originally cued low, depending on the cloth condition, the friction from the cloth takes the backspin off the Q ball before it arrives. If done correctly, when the Q ball arrives at the object ball it has no forward and little, if any backspin. The Q ball leaves the OB at the natural angle. The natural angle of deflection is back up the table. The english and the stun speed lengthen it to bring it to the corner. Frozen on the rail is a different shot.

Deadon
05-14-2006, 01:23 AM
Yeah I know he elevated. I watched him do it. He used a closed bridge from the rail. That in itself gives you plenty of elevation. I'm also using extreme bottom left english. As much as I can possibly put on the cue ball. Like 20 tips (according to some of you :D).

I didn't really have a question. I was just saying that it's a tough shot. I've since come close a time or two, but I still can't get the cue ball to come up table like he did. His cue ball hit the rail at about the same spot where he shot it. Mine hits way before that.


Nothing wrong with trying to figure out why something isn't working the way we think it should and why. That's what the a forum is about, usually. Really, its a good thread.

Mystick Cue Fan
05-14-2006, 01:51 AM
I've executed that shot a couple times. You really have to juice the cb:eek:

Colin Colenso
05-14-2006, 02:20 AM
I just tried the shot a few times. You need to get a lot of left english on the CB to get it to come back at that angle.

On contact you just need a sliding CB. But on my heavy nap table I have to start the shot off with a considerable amount of draw. On a faster table you wouldn't need to hit far below center.

Hardest part is judging the squirt.

jsp
05-14-2006, 08:53 AM
To elevate your cue you would put draw on the ball...just like a jump shot...
Exactly.

The amount of draw/spin is not entirely dependent on the absolute location of where the cue contacts the CB, but by how much offset there is between the line going through the cue (at impact) and the spherical center of the CB.

You can still execute a draw shot by hitting the top half (in relation to the table's surface) of the CB.

I guarantee that Buddy had a bit of backspin on the CB right after impact with the cue, due to the elevated cue stick.

Rickw
05-14-2006, 09:18 AM
I guarantee that Buddy had a bit of backspin on the CB right after impact with the cue, due to the elevated cue stick.

I disagree. Buddy has this system he uses for english on the cb, his clock system. Everything is 11:00, 1:00, etc. He is so precise on where he hits the cb and he can repeat it over and over again. He is a big man and he could put more stuff on that cb without any visible effort than most players. His ability to repeat the shot over and over again and his precision of where he's hitting the cb are the reasons I believe that if he said no draw and just use left-hand spin, then that's got to be where he's hitting the cb. He's using 9:00 english and that's it.

Billy_Bob
05-14-2006, 09:50 AM
The 30 and 90 degree rules are a fact. The cue ball is coming off the object ball 90 degrees to the line going to the pocket.

So this is 90 degree rule.

Thus at the time the cue ball hit the object ball, the cue ball was sliding - stun.

Use a striped ball as a cue ball. Shoot it to the far end of the table with draw hitting low. It initially has a backwards spin, then begins sliding, then develops a forward roll. (With most people shooting this shot that is - some can make it spin backwards all the way down table.)

Then as others pointed out, some tables have very fast cloth. A cue ball will maintain its backwards spin longer on a fast cloth table.

So what kind of cloth was on the table he made this shot on? If you are trying this on a slow cloth table, you may have difficulty getting the same results!

Note there is a shot called a "draw drag" shot. The cue ball starts out with a backwards spin, then turns into a sliding ball at the time it hits the object ball (stun).

30 and 90 degree rules [With cut shots]...

-Rolling ball comes off object ball at approx 30 degrees (to line of cue ball shot) or the angle of a peace sign made with your fingers.

-Sliding ball comes off object ball at 90 degrees to line with pocket (tangent).

Read about 30 and 90 degree rules here...
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/index.html

stevelomako
05-14-2006, 09:50 AM
I disagree. Buddy has this system he uses for english on the cb, his clock system. Everything is 11:00, 1:00, etc. He is so precise on where he hits the cb and he can repeat it over and over again. He is a big man and he could put more stuff on that cb without any visible effort than most players. His ability to repeat the shot over and over again and his precision of where he's hitting the cb are the reasons I believe that if he said no draw and just use left-hand spin, then that's got to be where he's hitting the cb. He's using 9:00 english and that's it.

9 o'clock with a level stroke is different than 9 o'clock with a raised stroke.

degenrat
05-14-2006, 09:56 AM
this shot seems entirely doable with a tiny bit of a masse strok. if you change the initial line from cb to ob and add a slight arc to the line. maybe 1/4-1/2 inch of masse, the cue would have plenty of spin to come back. with zero draw. makes pocketing the ball a bit harder, but i believe it would be completely repeatable with a good stroke.

blingbling
05-14-2006, 10:21 AM
heyyyy buddy had a draw on the rock when he hit it. cueball rolling forward with a 9'o clock spin will NOT get it back. the key is elevation altho i havent seen the clip. buddy a legend but ask him to shoot that shot with a level 9 o'clock stroke and he'll be in that pool room for a longggg time. sheesh !!

lewdo26
05-14-2006, 10:37 AM
Yeah I know he elevated. I watched him do it. He used a closed bridge from the rail. That in itself gives you plenty of elevation. I'm also using extreme bottom left english. As much as I can possibly put on the cue ball. Like 20 tips (according to some of you :D).

I didn't really have a question. I was just saying that it's a tough shot. I've since come close a time or two, but I still can't get the cue ball to come up table like he did. His cue ball hit the rail at about the same spot where he shot it. Mine hits way before that. Like this:I think we have to take into consideration that Buddy shot that shot in an obviously very fast table with new cloth (I saw the clip). If you're trying to duplicate that shot on a heavy nap, it's going to be difficult to get it that long.

I think because Buddy doesn't have to put as much speed on the cue to stun it, and so the spin has a chance to take off that long rail. With lots of speed, that cueball is going to come short, no two ways about it.

Deadon
05-14-2006, 12:20 PM
this shot seems entirely doable with a tiny bit of a masse strok. if you change the initial line from cb to ob and add a slight arc to the line. maybe 1/4-1/2 inch of masse, the cue would have plenty of spin to come back. with zero draw. makes pocketing the ball a bit harder, but i believe it would be completely repeatable with a good stroke.

I don't think so, when your close to the OB the backspin can be maintained fairly easily allowing the CB to draw and spin off the rail fairly easily. At that distance, after the cue ball curves the backspin is lost and it has acquired follow and will contact the rail at a flatter angle.

Besides the deflection adjustment as noted, the shot could be aimed a little on the fuller side because of the throw from the extreme english, thus giving it a slightly better angle to the rail. Theoretically, that is.

Matt_24
05-14-2006, 01:42 PM
Yeah I know he elevated. I watched him do it. He used a closed bridge from the rail. That in itself gives you plenty of elevation. I'm also using extreme bottom left english. As much as I can possibly put on the cue ball. Like 20 tips (according to some of you :D).

I didn't really have a question. I was just saying that it's a tough shot. I've since come close a time or two, but I still can't get the cue ball to come up table like he did. His cue ball hit the rail at about the same spot where he shot it. Mine hits way before that. Like this:


A lot of times people are scared to get familiar with running english. If I'm judging this angle correctly, it would be easier to use straight right english on this ball and come around three rails. You can let your stroke out, and it plays natural. I think this is what Buddy would do, if I'm judging the setup correctly. You can pull it back off the rail, but going three rails is a much easier way to get to the 9.

Rickw
05-14-2006, 02:13 PM
A lot of times people are scared to get familiar with running english. If I'm judging this angle correctly, it would be easier to use straight right english on this ball and come around three rails. You can let your stroke out, and it plays natural. I think this is what Buddy would do, if I'm judging the setup correctly. You can pull it back off the rail, but going three rails is a much easier way to get to the 9.

One of the things I've heard Buddy say numerous times is that there are usually 2, 3, and sometime more ways to get shape on the next shot. He's probably showing this way just in case there's traffic going for the 3 railer. JMO.

Hal
05-14-2006, 07:55 PM
Yes. There was traffic prohibiting the 3 railer. See post #1.

Billy_Bob
05-15-2006, 05:19 AM
One of the things I've heard Buddy say numerous times is that there are usually 2, 3, and sometime more ways to get shape on the next shot...

I always say what goes forward will hit a rail and then come back! (Just need to use proper speed to get the cue ball to come back to where you want.)

And then I sometimes forget to factor in if it is a thin cut (cue ball will keep most of its speed) or full ball hit (cue ball will lose most of its speed).

So I'll hit thin cuts too fast sometimes or not hit full ball hits hard enough (when going forward to come back). But I have been "burned" enough times from my doing this that I'm beginning to think about this more often before shooting.

Also watch beginner players shooting and cue ball needs to come back to get on their next shot (they can't draw). Many times the cue ball will hit the far rail and begin to come back the right direction, but stops at the far rail. Had they shot with more speed, they would have had good shape.

Matt_24
05-15-2006, 05:36 AM
I personally have a good draw shot, but if I can go three rails I prefer it because you CAN let your stroke out...because off of each rail to get from the 8 to where that 9 ball is, the cue will loose speed. If there is only the 8 and the 9 left, there can't be any traffic to interfere with position..right?

bruin70
05-15-2006, 06:27 AM
first off,,,everyone's stroke is different, so if joe blow says he uses follow, YOU might be able to do it with center. if buddy hall says he uses no draw,,,THAT'S HIM. the biggest mistake everyone makes is just because a great pro player can do something a certain way, don't think for a second that you can too. that is futile. you have to figure out your own way, given how you are presently playing.

in practice this shot doesn't require draw,,,it only requires spin. but two things,,,1...when the cb reaches the ob, it must be spinning clockwise(on this shot), and 2...the cb has the grab the cushion. now,,,you might be able to do it from 2 diamonds away, while bh can do it from the other end of the table.

when you hit the cb with english, the longer it has to travel, the more it will straighten itself out until it is rolling end over end. therefore, you must address the cb, IN YOUR WAY, so that it hits the ob with spin. since all players ahve different strokes, they must address the cb differently. for buddy hall, he can hit the cb with a spin stroke that will maintain,,,,for you, you can't.

and since bh has the stroke, not only can he give the cb spin, but he can do it with a smoother softer stroke that will allow the cb to grab the rail. and btw,,,just because hall says, "no draw", imo, that still means he can hit the cb below center, like 8 o'clock. to me, that is not a draw.

zeeder
05-15-2006, 06:37 AM
I don't see why everyone is getting hung up on hitting below center. Hitting below center can still give you any of follow, draw or stun depending on distance. It's not so much about where you address the cueball as what the cueball is doing when it reaches the object ball.

JoeyA
05-15-2006, 07:20 AM
[QUOTE=bruin70]first off,,,everyone's stroke is different, so if joe blow says he uses follow, YOU might be able to do it with center. if buddy hall says he uses no draw,,,THAT'S HIM.

Once, when Buddy was feeling kind of sorry for me because he was loudly chortling after winning his match (standing right next to where I was bearing down on a tough shot & losing against Claude Bernatchez), the next day he was making amends by giving me a few tips. One of them was on the taper of my cue. He asked me to make a particular shot with my cue and I was unable to do so. He then handed me his cue which was a Meucci and I pocketed the object ball with accuracy and obtained the desired shape. I could not perform this shot with my cue but I could with his and it was because of the taper difference so often times it is not some God-like stroke that someone else possesses (although Buddy does have a god-like stroke) but a difference in equipment like shaft or taper or tip shape and sometimes simply more knowledge.
Warm Regards,
JoeyA

Hal
05-15-2006, 07:28 AM
I personally have a good draw shot, but if I can go three rails I prefer it because you CAN let your stroke out...because off of each rail to get from the 8 to where that 9 ball is, the cue will loose speed. If there is only the 8 and the 9 left, there can't be any traffic to interfere with position..right?
There is more than that left. You looked at a different pic. See post #1

lewdo26
05-15-2006, 10:59 AM
I don't see why everyone is getting hung up on hitting below center. Hitting below center can still give you any of follow, draw or stun depending on distance. It's not so much about where you address the cueball as what the cueball is doing when it reaches the object ball.Tap, tap, tap!

GADawg
05-15-2006, 07:01 PM
I remember seeing this tip from Buddy a couple times. In my recollection, which could be wrong, I thought he said the shot was to be hit at about 7:30 or 8:00 on the cue ball which would put it below center.

I took his repeated comment about the shot being and "spin shot" and not a "draw shot" just as an explanation of the primary action of the shot and not a definitive statement. I understood the shot to be using the below center hit or "draw" portion of the shot to "draw" ball into the rail where the "spin" would take over and move the ball down the table.

IPT-hopeful
05-15-2006, 07:54 PM
It's a stun shot with left english. Buddy is right--no draw. By no draw, he means no backspin. To play it, play it the way you'd hit that distance shot to make a stop shot, but with left spin added to bring the cue ball uptable off the rail.

Come on guys. If the cueball has to arrive without any draw, it HAS to be spinning backwards from start point. That's why Buddy jacks up his cue, to get some draw. If he hit the ball without any draw whatsoever at the START, by the time it got to the target, it would be rolling forward and not be a stun shot anymore, no matter how hard you hit it.

Hal
05-15-2006, 07:57 PM
I thought he said the shot was to be hit at about 7:30 or 8:00 on the cue ball which would put it below center.

Yes. He did say that. Here is the ORIGINAL shot. Some people were confused by my second shot on page 2. This is the pic from post #1.

tedkaufman
05-15-2006, 08:14 PM
Come on guys. If the cueball has to arrive without any draw, it HAS to be spinning backwards from start point. That's why Buddy jacks up his cue, to get some draw. If he hit the ball without any draw whatsoever at the START, by the time it got to the target, it would be rolling forward and not be a stun shot anymore, no matter how hard you hit it.

I think most of you get it, for those who don't, to make a stop shot at that distance, of course you hit the cueball below center. How much you hit below center depends on your stroke and the speed you hit the shot. It is technically not a draw shot because you want the cueball sliding, not rolling, nor backspinning at the point of contact. If you were hitting a straight shot at that distance you would make a simple stop shot. That's the stroke.

After contact, the cueball caroms at roughly 90* off the object ball because it has no forward nor reverse spin. But is has left spin, so when it contacts the rail, it spins up table.

Hal
06-21-2006, 12:21 AM
Here is the shot I was talking about. It is the second shot in the first video clip. The video title is Chalk-off Instructional series #10.

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=BClub

PoolSharkAllen
06-21-2006, 12:50 AM
Here is the shot I was talking about. It is the second shot in the first video clip. The video title is Chalk-off Instructional series #10.

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=BClub

From the video clip, it appears that Hal's initial diagram is off a bit. The video clip shows that the 6-ball is actually just outside the jaws of the pocket (not near the seventh diamond shown in the diagram). And the cue ball is actually near the second diamond (not the first diamond shown in Hal's diagram).

The video clip does say that the CB can be hit at 8-9 o'clock. Hall's cue is elevated as the CB is so close to the rail. He's clearly shooting downwards at 8 o'clock to get that draw effect.

I'll have to try it out later today! :)

Tommy-D
06-21-2006, 02:35 AM
> A day or so after the initial post,I went and experimented with this shot. I figured something was fishy about the diagram within 10 minutes or so. From the position in the first post,I shot it maybe 30 times,and almost always got it to take roughly the same path as Buddy's did,but had somewhat of a problem getting it that long,I scratched about 8 times in that corner down there. I really thought the idea was to come up really short,and found that with my stroke,the only way to reliably come up as short as the diagram indicates was to use about a tip of RIGHT,and a BUNCH of draw. As far as Buddy's execution of this shot,if you watch the overhead shot of the actual collision,it does in fact have just a touch of draw on it. That also looks like a nice,fast table too,and it looks like he's playing with a plain ebony Cog. Tommy D.

pete lafond
06-21-2006, 04:57 AM
I saw Buddy Hall shoot this the other day on BCN. He said about 5 times, "This is a spin shot. This is not a draw shot." I was thinking to myself that it didn't look that difficult. I have to admit that I can't make it. I can get past the side pocket, but I can't get the cue ball to come "long" up the table.

Both balls are one ball width off the rail.


There are two ways to play this shot;

1. with middle left

To practice it try bringing the CB along the same line but much closer to the OB. Once you get the idea, they go back to the original spot and try it. It is a stroke shot. You need the CB to deflect away from the OB after contact as high up the rail as you can (3"). It is a stroke shot.

2. and the other with low left

as if you were drawing the ball. Again a full stroke is needed - not hard, just good follow through. You can even bring the CB back on even a much higher line.

Cornerman
06-21-2006, 05:40 AM
I saw Buddy Hall shoot this the other day on BCN. He said about 5 times, "This is a spin shot. This is not a draw shot." I was thinking to myself that it didn't look that difficult. I have to admit that I can't make it. I can get past the side pocket, but I can't get the cue ball to come "long" up the table.

Both balls are one ball width off the rail.
As drawn, if you hit this with absolutely no draw, then you have to hit it pretty firmly to make sure there isn't any follow. Not easy. It should be shot with low, but it doesn't have to be drawing to make the pattern.

IMO, it should be in your bag. Try a little draw, but make sure you have that outside english. Pay attention to where to object ball hits the pocket. A little difference in cut makes a huge difference in cue ball path.

With low left, and Simonis cloth, scratching in the lower left pocket is a hazard.

Fred

Cornerman
06-21-2006, 05:44 AM
Here is the shot I was talking about. It is the second shot in the first video clip. The video title is Chalk-off Instructional series #10.

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=BClub

At his elevation, as others have said, he's hitting draw. But it's the spin that makes the angle.

Fred

PROG8R
06-21-2006, 05:56 AM
Hey Hal,

It can be done with left spin only just like he said. Check the set up, you may need to adjust the angle a bit so the tanget is more direct to the rail and not forward of impact.

Hal
06-21-2006, 12:29 PM
Yeah, my original diagram was off just a bit. I was setting it up by memory. And I'm sure everyone here will agree, I'm known for my looks, not my memory.