PDA

View Full Version : Sinking the 8 early


Cameron Smith
05-16-2006, 05:10 PM
I've been starting to think that the rules for 8 ball should be amended.

One of the few rules that never seem to change when it comes to 8 ball, is that if you pot the 8 early you lose. This rule has never been very logical in my opinion, except perhaps for bar box play where you can't get the balls back.

I'm not an advocate of any rule that allows a weaker player to win without working for the victory. Of course there will always be luck, but usually with better players if the 8 ball goes early it is due to gross misfortune. It is a type of misfortune that could easily be rectified by changing the rule.

Personally I feel that a mispotted 8 ball should result in a foul cue ball in hand, and a respotted 8 ball.

Does anyone else agree?

Chris
05-16-2006, 05:16 PM
I've been starting to think that the rules for 8 ball should be amended.

One of the few rules that never seem to change when it comes to 8 ball, is that if you pot the 8 early you lose. This rule has never been very logical in my opinion, except perhaps for bar box play where you can't get the balls back.

I'm not an advocate of any rule that allows a weaker player to win without working for the victory. Of course there will always be luck, but usually with better players if the 8 ball goes early it is due to gross misfortune. It is a type of misfortune that could easily be rectified by changing the rule.

Personally I feel that a mispotted 8 ball should result in a foul cue ball in hand, and a respotted 8 ball.

Does anyone else agree?

I don't have an opinion on changing the rule, but I will say that is my least favorite way to end a game, win or lose.

Cameron Smith
05-16-2006, 05:35 PM
I agree it is such a bittersweet win when it happens, it is anti-climatic for anyone watching, and it simply sucks when it happens to you.

Harvywallbanger
05-16-2006, 05:52 PM
Agreed...now how do we change it?:D


While were at it what about the scratch on the 8 you loose rule. Ball in hand should be sufficient enough for this as well, right?

lewdo26
05-16-2006, 06:17 PM
I don't like the change. The weaker player will pocket the 8 early much more often than a stronger player. I think it adds to the complexity of the game - breaking out clusters with precision, playing with 5 pockets due to a hanging 8 ball, etc.

seiyaryu55
05-16-2006, 06:39 PM
I agree in both terms. I hate it when somehow i miss position or something and then the cue ball accidently bumps into another ball and then its like a chain reaction and next thing i know the 8 ball is in the pocket.....

BUT that doesnt happen to me very often. In fact against beginners i like to play around and nudge the 8 closer to a pocket that i wont be using. Then when they bang balls around its almost like an instant win. Teaches them not to bang balls around carelessly.

I wouldnt change the rule though. If you really are better than the other then you may lose the rack but youll still win the match.

Subsonic2u
05-16-2006, 09:39 PM
While an early 8 in not a nice way to win or lose, I think it is an important part of the game. A quality player seldom has an early 8 and it definately teaches the bangers to get a stroke and go for a shot/position rather than just bang the balls around. There is not a better way for a banger to learn, than to lose by not making carefully planned shots.

As for a scratch on the 8, it should b a definate loss. Most any quality player can avoid a scratch. Another part of the game. That's how u learn what to do and what not to do.

Have we come so far that we don't want to take responsibility for our own actions, EVEN on a pool table? I can hear it now! It's not my fault, I was mistreated as a child and I should not b punished for an early 8. :eek: I want a do over. :rolleyes: Grow up, it's what makes the game exciting. Next thing people will b wanting to try a shot a second time if they miss on the first try. :D Facing the consequences is possibly the most important teacher for those who are not careful. If u are willing to bang your balls, u might have to face the agony of defeat.

JoeyInCali
05-16-2006, 09:54 PM
It's a loss according to BCA rules.
Scratching on the 8 without making it is not a loss according to BCA though.
Also, if you make the 8 on the break, it's not a win according to BCA.:eek:

GADawg
05-16-2006, 09:56 PM
While an early 8 in not a nice way to win or lose, I think it is an important part of the game. A quality player seldom has an early 8 and it definately teaches the bangers to get a stroke and go for a shot/position rather than just bang the balls around. There is not a better way for a banger to learn, than to lose by not making carefully planned shots.

As for a scratch on the 8, it should b a definate loss. Most any quality player can avoid a scratch. Another part of the game. That's how u learn what to do and what not to do.

I agree. Treating the 8 with respect while trying to make the other balls is an integral part of the game, as is not scratching while shooting the 8.

I think however that in BCA rules a scratch while shooting the 8 is not loss of game if you do not make the 8 on the shot. It is a BIH foul. If you make the 8 and scratch, it is loss of game.

Jude Rosenstock
05-16-2006, 10:45 PM
I've been starting to think that the rules for 8 ball should be amended.

One of the few rules that never seem to change when it comes to 8 ball, is that if you pot the 8 early you lose. This rule has never been very logical in my opinion, except perhaps for bar box play where you can't get the balls back.

I'm not an advocate of any rule that allows a weaker player to win without working for the victory. Of course there will always be luck, but usually with better players if the 8 ball goes early it is due to gross misfortune. It is a type of misfortune that could easily be rectified by changing the rule.

Personally I feel that a mispotted 8 ball should result in a foul cue ball in hand, and a respotted 8 ball.

Does anyone else agree?

I think you're looking at it from the wrong perspective. I happen to play a lot of 8-ball and use the early-eight rule to my advantage more often in a strategical sense than I am the bearer of misfortune. It is the ultimate blocker and can be positioned infront of pockets that your opponent may need. In sum, it adds to the strategy of the game. Without it, 8-ball becomes far more offensive game. The intricacies that many players are attracted to would be significantly reduced. I do admit, watching a player lose because of an improbable carom is disheartening but it's a worthy trade-of (IMHO) for what that rule adds.

Colin Colenso
05-16-2006, 10:47 PM
The punishment should fit the crime, or the magnitude of the error in this case.

I don't like the 8 early loss or the scratch loss for those reasons, as it often punishes the aggressive and better player.

Most fouls at higher levels will result in loss of game anyway, but at least the opponent has to earn it.

Subsonic2u
05-16-2006, 11:21 PM
I don't like the 8 early loss or the scratch loss for those reasons, as it often punishes the aggressive and better player
----------

Better player?? A "better player" does not lose control of his balls. His Q ball does not bang into other balls unless he plays it that way. The best players in my area rarely have an early 8 or scratch on the 8. They know where their ball is going and that is what makes them a better player. They hit their ball just hard enough to make the shot and get position on the next ball. They do not bang the Q ball and watch it caroom wildly around the table hitting every ball in sight. It's called position play and speed control. That is what makes them good.

The players that have the most early 8s and scratches are the bangers. The newer players that lack the knowledge of position play. They hit every shot hard and the Q travels around the table knocking balls everywhere. No wonder they get early 8s. I c them going for a shot and I'm just sitting there watching, knowing full well they are going to scratch. Yet they are oblivious to what is about to happen. A quality player knows where his ball will go and will use draw, follow, or side spin to avoid a scratch and get position. Until the bangers learn position play and speed control, they deserve to lose for an early 8. Eventually they will learn that banging the Q ball causes them to lose. Only then will they move up a notch and use position play and speed control. As long as a banger keeps winning, he thinks he is a great player.

It's George Old Owner
05-16-2006, 11:36 PM
wouldn't it be fun if the main aim of 8ball is to pot the 8 to win!
i can just forsee that every1 would just blast the balls ard the 8 every time :p

supergreenman
05-16-2006, 11:41 PM
I've been starting to think that the rules for 8 ball should be amended.

One of the few rules that never seem to change when it comes to 8 ball, is that if you pot the 8 early you lose. This rule has never been very logical in my opinion, except perhaps for bar box play where you can't get the balls back.

I'm not an advocate of any rule that allows a weaker player to win without working for the victory. Of course there will always be luck, but usually with better players if the 8 ball goes early it is due to gross misfortune. It is a type of misfortune that could easily be rectified by changing the rule.

Personally I feel that a mispotted 8 ball should result in a foul cue ball in hand, and a respotted 8 ball.

Does anyone else agree?

I don't agree, learn to control whitey and you don't have to worry about it.

My $0.02 Canadian(worth more and more every day)

juanbond
05-17-2006, 12:39 AM
I've been starting to think that the rules for 8 ball should be amended.

One of the few rules that never seem to change when it comes to 8 ball, is that if you pot the 8 early you lose. This rule has never been very logical in my opinion, except perhaps for bar box play where you can't get the balls back.

I'm not an advocate of any rule that allows a weaker player to win without working for the victory. Of course there will always be luck, but usually with better players if the 8 ball goes early it is due to gross misfortune. It is a type of misfortune that could easily be rectified by changing the rule.

Personally I feel that a mispotted 8 ball should result in a foul cue ball in hand, and a respotted 8 ball.

Does anyone else agree?

I can see this side of the argument...perhaps it would make for an interesting alternative set of 8-ball rules. I certainly remember a few league games in which this situation bit me in the ass!

I still think that losing when making the eight early is the most fitting rule for this most excellent billiards game (and my favorite along with 1P). Like someone previously said, it adds to the complexity of the game; there's added precision/forethought required to avoid sinking the eight early. I think of it as a counterpart to making the nine early in nine-ball. In nine ball (one of my least favorite games), you can win by slopping in the nine. In eight ball, you don't have this luxury. I think this is the way it should be. I like this anti-ball-banger rule. It gives that devilish, black eight ball a wonderfully ominous status in the game.

Colin Colenso
05-17-2006, 01:17 AM
I don't like the 8 early loss or the scratch loss for those reasons, as it often punishes the aggressive and better player
----------

Better player?? A "better player" does not lose control of his balls. His Q ball does not bang into other balls unless he plays it that way. The best players in my area rarely have an early 8 or scratch on the 8. They know where their ball is going and that is what makes them a better player. They hit their ball just hard enough to make the shot and get position on the next ball. They do not bang the Q ball and watch it caroom wildly around the table hitting every ball in sight. It's called position play and speed control. That is what makes them good.

The players that have the most early 8s and scratches are the bangers. The newer players that lack the knowledge of position play. They hit every shot hard and the Q travels around the table knocking balls everywhere. No wonder they get early 8s. I c them going for a shot and I'm just sitting there watching, knowing full well they are going to scratch. Yet they are oblivious to what is about to happen. A quality player knows where his ball will go and will use draw, follow, or side spin to avoid a scratch and get position. Until the bangers learn position play and speed control, they deserve to lose for an early 8. Eventually they will learn that banging the Q ball causes them to lose. Only then will they move up a notch and use position play and speed control. As long as a banger keeps winning, he thinks he is a great player.

The situation I was thinking about in particular is when a good player has only the 8 ball left. And attempting to pot it out of a snooker makes a scratch. There is already a big advantage to the player with balls remaining in that situation without the scratch loss factor.

Anyway, you and Jude make some good points.

I wouldn't lose any sleep if the rules stayed as they are. It's still a great game and a lot of tweaking wouldn't do much to improve it.

Colin

Billy_Bob
05-17-2006, 07:33 AM
There is a "disconnect" between 8-ball rules and 9-ball rules.

Maybe it would be better if 8-ball was more like 9-ball
or 9-ball was more like 8-ball?

Maybe legal hit and sink the 8 early wins the game? Illegal hit, 8 gets spotted?

Or 9-ball, 9 must be last ball made and an early 9 is a loss?

Anyway I don't know why 9-ball rules are so different from 8-ball rules with respect to the 8 and 9 balls?

I do know one thing though. Anytime you try to change *anything* so far as billiards goes, they will scream bloody murder! They did this when rubber cushions were invented and some wanted to replace the existing "horsehair" stuffed cushions with the new rubber cushions.

Gregg
05-17-2006, 07:37 AM
I don't like the 8 early loss or the scratch loss for those reasons, as it often punishes the aggressive and better player
----------

Better player?? A "better player" does not lose control of his balls. His Q ball does not bang into other balls unless he plays it that way. The best players in my area rarely have an early 8 or scratch on the 8. They know where their ball is going and that is what makes them a better player. They hit their ball just hard enough to make the shot and get position on the next ball. They do not bang the Q ball and watch it caroom wildly around the table hitting every ball in sight. It's called position play and speed control. That is what makes them good.

The players that have the most early 8s and scratches are the bangers. The newer players that lack the knowledge of position play. They hit every shot hard and the Q travels around the table knocking balls everywhere. No wonder they get early 8s. I c them going for a shot and I'm just sitting there watching, knowing full well they are going to scratch. Yet they are oblivious to what is about to happen. A quality player knows where his ball will go and will use draw, follow, or side spin to avoid a scratch and get position. Until the bangers learn position play and speed control, they deserve to lose for an early 8. Eventually they will learn that banging the Q ball causes them to lose. Only then will they move up a notch and use position play and speed control. As long as a banger keeps winning, he thinks he is a great player.

I agree with everything you said here except the blue text.

Chris
05-17-2006, 08:35 AM
There is a "disconnect" between 8-ball rules and 9-ball rules.

Maybe it would be better if 8-ball was more like 9-ball
or 9-ball was more like 8-ball?

Maybe legal hit and sink the 8 early wins the game? Illegal hit, 8 gets spotted?

Or 9-ball, 9 must be last ball made and an early 9 is a loss?

Anyway I don't know why 9-ball rules are so different from 8-ball rules with respect to the 8 and 9 balls?

I do know one thing though. Anytime you try to change *anything* so far as billiards goes, they will scream bloody murder! They did this when rubber cushions were invented and some wanted to replace the existing "horsehair" stuffed cushions with the new rubber cushions.

They have different rules because they are drastically different games. Eight ball is all about strategy, while nine ball is all about execution.

Personally, I don't like playing nine ball, except as a drill. I would not want eight ball to be made to be more similar to nine ball. Just my opinion.

Andrew Manning
05-17-2006, 08:45 AM
I think you're looking at it from the wrong perspective. I happen to play a lot of 8-ball and use the early-eight rule to my advantage more often in a strategical sense than I am the bearer of misfortune. It is the ultimate blocker and can be positioned infront of pockets that your opponent may need. In sum, it adds to the strategy of the game. Without it, 8-ball becomes far more offensive game. The intricacies that many players are attracted to would be significantly reduced. I do admit, watching a player lose because of an improbable carom is disheartening but it's a worthy trade-of (IMHO) for what that rule adds.

Good post, Jude, I totally agree. Saying that making the early-eight a loss of game foul punishes the more aggressive player is like saying water hazards punish the more agressive golfer. The hazard is there, and if you put your ball in it, it's because you made a poor decision or hit your shot poorly. Similarly, the 8-ball is there, and if you knock it in a hole, it's because you made a poor decision, or because you failed to control your cue ball properly. I do agree that it's an unsatisfying way to win and an infuriating way to lose, but removing the loss of game penalty would drastically change the strategy of some racks, and not for the better, in my opinion.

-Andrew

Chris
05-17-2006, 08:48 AM
Good post, Jude, I totally agree. Saying that making the early-eight a loss of game foul punishes the more aggressive player is like saying water hazards punish the more agressive golfer. The hazard is there, and if you put your ball in it, it's because you made a poor decision or hit your shot poorly. Similarly, the 8-ball is there, and if you knock it in a hole, it's because you made a poor decision, or because you failed to control your cue ball properly. I do agree that it's an unsatisfying way to win and an infuriating way to lose, but removing the loss of game penalty would drastically change the strategy of some racks, and not for the better, in my opinion.

-Andrew

The more viewpoints I read in this thread, the more I am inclined to believe the rule should not change.

supergreenman
05-17-2006, 09:08 AM
I think you're looking at it from the wrong perspective. I happen to play a lot of 8-ball and use the early-eight rule to my advantage more often in a strategical sense than I am the bearer of misfortune. It is the ultimate blocker and can be positioned infront of pockets that your opponent may need. In sum, it adds to the strategy of the game. Without it, 8-ball becomes far more offensive game. The intricacies that many players are attracted to would be significantly reduced. I do admit, watching a player lose because of an improbable carom is disheartening but it's a worthy trade-of (IMHO) for what that rule adds.
Jude really has nailed it well. 8 ball wouldn't be 8 ball with out this rule.

Barbara
05-17-2006, 09:27 AM
To understand why pocketing the 8 early is loss of game, you must understand the game of 8-ball.

In 8-ball, each opponent establishes his/her group of balls to pocket. In BCA 8-ball, the 8-ball is not neutral and cannot be struck first to pocket a ball without incurring a foul. It may be used in a combination, however.

When a player has pocketed his/her group of balls, then the 8-ball becomes legal for that player to strike and pocket. So you see, until you have pocketed all your balls first, pocketing the 8-ball before it becomes your legal ball is loss of game.

Now if you're suggesting that pocketing the 8-ball early should just be considered just a foul, then you're changing the whole game and its strategy.

Barbara

Cameron Smith
05-17-2006, 03:57 PM
Just so you guys know where I am coming from, I lost a match on monday as a result of two impossible caroms onto the eight. I wasn't banging anything around, from the position of the eight ball nobody would have believed that it could have been pocketed anywhere unless I shot straight at it.

In short, I am sulking. STILL!

But I don't think that changing the rule to being a foul changes the game at all, except for the banger I suppose because ball in hand are nice for them but it doesn't amount to much in the end. However for the better players ball in hand is huge, especially in eight ball where it makes an unrunable table, runable. The strategy still exists, you still can nudge the eight ball near a pocket to force a foul. But you just don't get a quick easy win.

I would be willing to bet money (not really, just figuratively) that the rule was instituted with the inception of the bar box since you are unable respot balls. What else can you do? You can't say an early eight is a win, that wouldn't make any sense. So the obvious rule in that case is that an early eight is a lose, and everything follows from there.

Of course this is just guess work, but if I am right, it would make the rule unneccessary for a table in which you were able to pull balls out.

Just the opinion of a sulky pouting pool player.

Colin Colenso
05-17-2006, 05:08 PM
If the game was played without an 8-ball, just solids and stripes, most games would pretty much play out the same way as they do now.

Your last ball would act like the 8-ball. Miss it and you're in trouble.

I don't see too many games where the 8-ball is used as a kind of strategical chess piece to block balls and pockets. In fact when adopting these strategies we use our own balls much more. The 8-ball pretty much gets left alone unless it needs to be broken out of a cluster.

Cameron Smith
05-17-2006, 05:16 PM
I don't see too many games where the 8-ball is used as a kind of strategical chess piece to block balls and pockets. In fact when adopting these strategies we use our own balls much more. The 8-ball pretty much gets left alone unless it needs to be broken out of a cluster.

I was just thinking that. I don't think I have ever seen anybody intentionally move the 8 around. But it is mainly 9 ball around where I am so maybe I am not looking hard enough. But I would think the inherent risks in such a strategy would be barely worth the reward. Besides at higher levels of the game, I don't think strategy really plays into the game much.

lewdo26
05-17-2006, 06:58 PM
If the game was played without an 8-ball, just solids and stripes, most games would pretty much play out the same way as they do now.

Your last ball would act like the 8-ball. Miss it and you're in trouble.

I don't see too many games where the 8-ball is used as a kind of strategical chess piece to block balls and pockets. In fact when adopting these strategies we use our own balls much more. The 8-ball pretty much gets left alone unless it needs to be broken out of a cluster.Geez, Colin. The game would be so much POORER then. I'm glad this is a pool forum and not a BCA meeting.

GADawg
05-17-2006, 07:09 PM
If the game was played without an 8-ball, just solids and stripes, most games would pretty much play out the same way as they do now.

Your last ball would act like the 8-ball. Miss it and you're in trouble.

I don't see too many games where the 8-ball is used as a kind of strategical chess piece to block balls and pockets. In fact when adopting these strategies we use our own balls much more. The 8-ball pretty much gets left alone unless it needs to be broken out of a cluster.


I don't agree at all. If there was no 8 ball, the you would never have the situation where both players were on the same legal ball at the same time trying to either make it or play safe from the other player.

Making the change suggested would have making an early 8 the same penalty as not getting a legal hit. I think they are not similar crimes. In the situation where a players ball was blocked from a hole by the 8, he could just go ahead and make the eight and only give up BIH. I think that changes the game dramatically.

One question. I have played 8 ball in many different places with many different sets of rules. Every league and bar seems to have a different set, but I have never played anywhere that an early 8 was not loss of game. Has anybody ever played under any set of rules (except maybe in a private home) where an early 8 was not loss of game?

I think the chances of having this rule changed are about the same and having the sun rise in the west.

Colin Colenso
05-17-2006, 09:22 PM
Geez, Colin. The game would be so much POORER then. I'm glad this is a pool forum and not a BCA meeting.

My point was simply that the 8-ball doesn't make the game significantly different in strategy. Especially at the higher play levels where most games are finished on a run of balls. Rarely do we see tie up games, or two players battling for position on the 8-ball as last ball.

So by extension, getting rid of the early black and scratch on black loss rules, it would unlikely make much difference to the game.

btw: Just cause a rule has never been seen or tried doesn't mean it wouldn't work or improve a game. I recall the foul-snooker rule being introduced to English 8-ball worldwide, and it improved the game considerably.

Cuebacca
05-18-2006, 08:41 AM
I don't like the 8 early loss or the scratch loss for those reasons, as it often punishes the aggressive and better player
----------

Better player?? A "better player" does not lose control of his balls. His Q ball does not bang into other balls unless he plays it that way. The best players in my area rarely have an early 8 or scratch on the 8. They know where their ball is going and that is what makes them a better player. They hit their ball just hard enough to make the shot and get position on the next ball. They do not bang the Q ball and watch it caroom wildly around the table hitting every ball in sight. It's called position play and speed control. That is what makes them good.

The players that have the most early 8s and scratches are the bangers. The newer players that lack the knowledge of position play. They hit every shot hard and the Q travels around the table knocking balls everywhere. No wonder they get early 8s. I c them going for a shot and I'm just sitting there watching, knowing full well they are going to scratch. Yet they are oblivious to what is about to happen. A quality player knows where his ball will go and will use draw, follow, or side spin to avoid a scratch and get position. Until the bangers learn position play and speed control, they deserve to lose for an early 8. Eventually they will learn that banging the Q ball causes them to lose. Only then will they move up a notch and use position play and speed control. As long as a banger keeps winning, he thinks he is a great player.

True, in general, good players do not lose control of the balls, but everyone loses control at least once in a while. If Efren plays enough games of 8-ball, eventually he will slop an 8, although it might take him a million games to do that. :D

If a banger slops the 8 more often than a better player, it doesn't necessarily mean the rule favors the better player.

Say you are the better player playing a banger and over a long number of games you find that you win 10 games to his 1, on average. Assume that none of these games had this 8-ball rule come up. Now, for the 8-ball rule to favor you, the banger would need to slop the 8-ball more than 10-times as often as you. If you slop the 8 once for every 5 times he slops it, the rule gives him an advantage.

I like the way Colin put it, the punishment does not fit the crime. Same is true in 9-ball, in my opinion. When you slop the 9 early, often the reward does not fit the accomplishment, especially on the break. :mad:

That said, I can't say I'd vote to remove the 8-ball-slop-is-a-loss rule. It would take a lot of deliberation to decide one way or another. We should all go out and play a bunch of 8-ball with the rule changed to see if we like it. :p It would take a while to get used to; it feels like its just part of the game.

At least its not as harsh as some of the bar rules out there. In the bars I went to in Manhattan, they rule it a loss of game if you don't contact the 8-ball when you are on the 8. :eek: I thought that was completely rediculous.

I like the BCA version where a scratch on the 8 is not a loss as long as the 8 does not drop. If it drops on the break, give the breaker the option of spotting it or reracking. In my opinion, no game should last only 1 shot.

renard
05-18-2006, 02:02 PM
I agree. Treating the 8 with respect while trying to make the other balls is an integral part of the game, as is not scratching while shooting the 8.

I think however that in BCA rules a scratch while shooting the 8 is not loss of game if you do not make the 8 on the shot. It is a BIH foul. If you make the 8 and scratch, it is loss of game.

Exactly Dawg. Treating the 8ball like it's dynomite adds to the game.

phjunky
05-18-2006, 02:28 PM
I don't agree on changing any rule. I think rules are pretty good like they are. And sinking the 8 soon in the game should remain as a lose for this player. You have to increase your skills to get more control of the balls instead of changing rules to advantage you. It's like if we said in 9ball, no combination with the 9... so the player who makes a combination 1-9 doesn't win and the 9 is respot. I don't think we should change any rule. If the game ends early, that's part of the game. It only gives you another reason to start another. :) But now, you can get some rules variations with your buddies.

Cameron Smith
05-19-2006, 06:11 AM
I don't agree on changing any rule. I think rules are pretty good like they are. And sinking the 8 soon in the game should remain as a lose for this player. You have to increase your skills to get more control of the balls instead of changing rules to advantage you. It's like if we said in 9ball, no combination with the 9... so the player who makes a combination 1-9 doesn't win and the 9 is respot. I don't think we should change any rule. If the game ends early, that's part of the game. It only gives you another reason to start another. :) But now, you can get some rules variations with your buddies.

Just because a rule is in place doesn't mean that they aren't illogical. It does not take very much skill to avoid banging the 8 around, whenever it does drop it is due to, as I mentioned before, gross misfortune. The strategy of 8 ball would not change if the rule amended, you would still have to be careful around the 8. Who wants to give up ball in hand?

phjunky
05-22-2006, 10:03 PM
I don't think that rule is illogical. The rule is if you sink the 8 before all your balls, you lose... this rule stands for the whole game... i mean, not only after having sink like 3 or 4 of our balls... But i know what you mean... i just don't think we should change that rule.

pdcue
05-23-2006, 02:27 AM
I've been starting to think that the rules for 8 ball should be amended.

One of the few rules that never seem to change when it comes to 8 ball, is that if you pot the 8 early you lose. This rule has never been very logical in my opinion, except perhaps for bar box play where you can't get the balls back.

I'm not an advocate of any rule that allows a weaker player to win without working for the victory. Of course there will always be luck, but usually with better players if the 8 ball goes early it is due to gross misfortune. It is a type of misfortune that could easily be rectified by changing the rule.

Personally I feel that a mispotted 8 ball should result in a foul cue ball in hand, and a respotted 8 ball.

Does anyone else agree?

...that you are the dumbist troll I have ever seen on the web,
and that is against mighty stiff competition.

juanbond
05-23-2006, 03:59 AM
...whenever it does drop it is due to, as I mentioned before, gross misfortune.

I can't agree with this... I never gave much creedence to the idea that things on a pool table happen because of "fortune", or lack thereof. Any shot you play has consequences that can, for the most part, be predicted. Sure, you can't accurately predict every minute aspect of every roll, but to say that an 8-ball sunk early is always due to bad luck is hogwash. If the eight is hanging, you either avoid it or you sink it. If it's in the line of the natural path of the cueball after a simple cut, you have to analyze what will happen to the eight. I don't see any reason to consider it bad luck, rather, it's usually just bad planning or lack of cueball control.

The strategy of 8 ball would not change if the rule amended, you would still have to be careful around the 8. Who wants to give up ball in hand?

Well, there's an obvious difference between giving ball-in-hand and losing the game. There are times when giving ball-in-hand is not a big disadvantage at all (opponent has tough clusters, multiple problem balls). A loss is just that: game over. BIH is nowhere near being a certain loss, especially for players below the pro level, or in situations where I'm way ahead of my opponent and have him well tied up. I definitely think changing this rule to be BIH makes 8-ball strategy a bit different. If my last OB is frozen on a dead combination with the eight, hanging deep in a corner pocket, I'm normally pretty screwed. With this proposed rule change, I can play the combination, perhaps sinking the eight and my last OB, and only give the opponent BIH, which may or may not lead to a lost game. If my opponent has a lot of problem balls, I still have a great chance of winning, especially if that was my last OB and I made it along with the eight in my example. That's only one scenario, I can think of many more that have drastically different consequences under these two early-eight rule scenarios.

Yes, you still would have to be careful around the eight...but I think it is obvious that, in some situations, you could afford to be FAR less careful. I think the difference is substantial.

GADawg
05-23-2006, 04:04 AM
I can't agree with this... I never gave much creedence to the idea that things on a pool table happen because of "fortune", or lack thereof. Any shot you play has consequences that can, for the most part, be predicted. Sure, you can't accurately predict every minute aspect of every roll, but to say that an 8-ball sunk early is always due to bad luck is hogwash. If the eight is hanging, you either avoid it or you sink it. If it's in the line of the natural path of the cueball after a simple cut, you have to analyze what will happen to the eight. I don't see any reason to consider it bad luck, rather, it's usually just bad planning or lack of cueball control.



Well, there's an obvious difference between giving ball-in-hand and losing the game. There are times when giving ball-in-hand is not a big disadvantage at all (opponent has tough clusters, multiple problem balls). A loss is just that, gave over. BIH is nowhere near being a certain loss, especially for players below the pro level, or in situations where I'm way ahead of my opponent and have him well tied up. I definitely think changing this rule to be BIH makes 8-ball strategy a bit different. If my last OB is frozen on a dead combination with the eight, hanging deep in a corner pocket, I'm normally pretty screwed. With this proposed rule change, I can play the combination, perhaps sinking the eight and my last OB, and only give the opponent BIH, which may or may not lead to a lost game. If my opponent has a lot of problem balls, I still have a great chance of winning, especially if that was my last OB and I made it along with the eight in my example. That's only one scenario, I can think of many more that have drastically different consequences under these two early-eight rule scenarios.

Yes, you still would have to be careful around the eight...but I think it is obvious that, in some situations, you could afford to be FAR less careful. I think the difference is substantial.

Good reply and dead on!! Tap Tap Tap

juanbond
05-23-2006, 04:14 AM
To further illustrate my opinion on the concept of "misfortune" in pool...

If you consider accidentally pocketing the eight to be "bad luck"... Then, is it also bad luck for me to miss shape on a shot, freezing myself against an opponent's ball and hooking myself? That happens plenty in amateur games, and even pro games. The clear answer is no, has nothing to do with luck. I simply failed to execute a good shot. I came up short, I rolled too far or too wide off a rail, etc. Similarly, if I carom into the eight and pocket it early, I either failed to recognize the danger of it, didn't execute in getting around it, took too big of a risk, or just slopped it in by hitting with too much force and carelessly ran into too many balls. These are all consequences of a poor shot, that could have been hit better.

Now, I understand that pool is not completely controllable, sometimes things happen by chance that seem odd or not in line with the normal working of pool (i.e. skids, hitting a lump in the slate, etc). But, to say that every early-pocketed eight is always due to some unforseen, uncontrollable circumstance seems like a cop-out way of explaining poor shots.

The game of Eight Ball WITHOUT A DOUBT changes if you change this rule, and in quite a measurable way. Whether it's for better or worse, I don't know, I only have my opinion on that matter.

Captain Dan
05-23-2006, 04:23 AM
This thread seems to have been started by someone who is a 9 Ball player with limited 8 Ball experience. Having the 8 sancrosanct until the end ADDS to the game, in ways already mentioned. You treat the 8 with respect, and control your shoots accordingly.

If every game was the same, life would be a bit boring. One of the reasons I'm trying other games (I'm into 8 Ball), is they make me think differently, and are adding to my skills and enjoyment of cue sports in general.

Daniel:D

Cameron Smith
05-23-2006, 03:44 PM
Juanbond- I see your point and I agree with you sort of about the luck deal, as well as the strategy. Luck is attributed to a series of occurances that were beyond a persons ability to predict, what is luck for a banger is easily predictable for a pro. I guess in short I just agree with Colin, that the punishment doesn't befit the crime. I just think that games should be played out.

Captain Dan- Nope not a 9 ball player per se. I'm a snooker and 14.1 player who plays 9 ball because that's the only game played around these parts. I'm actually not a big fan of 9 ball, I don't like the fact that you don't have to call shots and you can luck in the 9 ball. That's where my problem with the 8 ball rule comes in, it's kind of the opposite, but just as sucky.

pdcue, I don't even know what a troll is. But if by troll you mean big, green and lives under a bridge, nope I am short 5'7, not green (unless I'm sick) and live in a house. But I live near a bridge.

Cameron Smith
05-23-2006, 03:46 PM
i just don't think we should change that rule.

And I don't expect anyone to either. This thread is me whining about my loss last week :D :D :D :D :D :D.

phjunky
05-26-2006, 07:00 AM
allright :D