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View Full Version : wanna know how to out a sandbagger ?


lorider
09-09-2013, 06:07 AM
piss him off !

there is a guy that is on the opposing team we played last night that i have known since bcapl days 8 years ago. he us only an apa 4. i been around pool enough to judge someones speed " at least be in the ball park ".

i threw my 8 and they throw him. well sure enough my 8 gets up 40-10 and i saw where that 4 was not making shots i knew he was capable of making.

he happens to come stand between our tables right next to me while he is waiting for his next turn.

i stand up next to him and say softly so no one else will hear, i have known you a long time and remember when you used to beat the hell outa me on the table. it must be embarrassing to have people in league that have not been in pool as long as you beat you week after week.

i said right now my 8 is up 40-10 on you . he aint just beating your ass , he is just downright embarrassing you.

he dont say nothing. he just looks at me as i sit back down. about that time its his turn to shoot..

well let me say .... the rest of the match went pretty quickly. the 4 scores 21 points to my 8's 17and wins 31-57. i thought that was pretty impressive but i have had a few come from behinds like that a time or 2. not against an 8 but a couple of 7's.

whats really impressive about the rest of this match is that it went 0 innings...... yea thats right...0 innings.

after i piss that 4 off about mentioning how lousy he was playing and being down 40-10 he scores 21 points to my 8's 17 in 0 innings.

within 15 minutes after the end of the match it was all over the pool hall. the lo came over and looked at the score sheet and said wow. looked at the 4 then back at the score sheet and said wow again before putting it down.

dont think that guy will be a 4 next week. :wink:

Doc Holliday
09-09-2013, 06:15 AM
How could they both score points in 0 innings? I thought an inning was both players shoot?

lorider
09-09-2013, 06:30 AM
after the score was 40-10 and i talked to the 4 my 8 ran 17 balls. the 4 comes back and runs 21 balls to win.

this was after only making 10 balls in 7 innings. thats right he spent 7 innings making a ball here and there then making what you call a 2 way shot here and there where he leaves my guy hard. in other words not an obvious saftey, just running uo innings.

the rest of the match went 0 innings with him running 21 straight when he went to the table.

the 8 won the lag , the inning is not over until the 4 loses his turn at the table.

Maniac
09-09-2013, 06:32 AM
How could they both score points in 0 innings? I thought an inning was both players shoot?

It's possible, but not in the scenario that the OP mentions. If the SL8 got his 17 points (while lorider was "whispering" in the sandbaggers ear) at the top of the inning, and the sandbagging SL4 closed out the match with 21 points, that would have been 0 innings scored.

But.....it doesn't seem to be described that way in the OP. No mention of the SL8 getting his last 17 points at the time the sandbagger was getting his "talk".

Ooops! To slow on the answer. Lorider got it covered in the post above this one!!!

Maniac

jhanso18
09-09-2013, 06:32 AM
I love hearing people complain about sand baggers in APA...

lorider
09-09-2013, 06:38 AM
I love hearing people complain about sand baggers in APA...

i aint complaining i at all... i think its pretty damn funny the extreme people go to trying to work the system.

CreeDo
09-09-2013, 06:43 AM
Just curious, was it two break and runs? Never saw a four do that. But saw a 4 run a rack of 9b before
if the layout is easy. I can imagine one runout + two partial racks is possible for a four. Still fishy though.

Ken_4fun
09-09-2013, 06:53 AM
I love hearing people complain about sand baggers in APA...

Agreed.

This silly nit should have the 4 whisper in HIS ear.:rolleyes: He is smart enough to be a 4 and this guy isn't.

:eek:

KEN

lorider
09-09-2013, 06:54 AM
Just curious, was it two break and runs? Never saw a four do that. But saw a 4 run a rack of 9b before
if the layout is easy. I can imagine one runout + two partial racks is possible for a four. Still fishy though.

he made the 8 and 9. then had a break and run, then ran 8 last rack getting his needed 21 points. thats the only thing that kept him from having another break and run, had an easy shot on the 9 if he had needed it.

Pidge
09-09-2013, 06:56 AM
Wow the terminology has gone right over my head. I'm guessing teams in APA are handicapped, with good players and not so good players to try make it fair. So the "not so good guy" was ranked beneath his actual ability to handicap his team, but was infact better than a 4? Aka a sandbag/dbag?

I will get the American pool lingo down one day.

lorider
09-09-2013, 07:02 AM
Agreed.

This silly nit should have the 4 whisper in HIS ear.:rolleyes: He is smart enough to be a 4 and this guy isn't.

:eek:

KEN

people with your attitude is what gives pool a bad name.

whats wrong with playing the best you can every time at the table and letting the outcome be what it is.

nit huh ? look in the mirror. :smile:

Pete
09-09-2013, 07:14 AM
I hate sandbagging period. I also hate Sharking period.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

If you really think he's a sandbager as you stated, you handled it quite poorly I think. If I was so inclined, I would have talked with the league operator and issued a formal complaint. But I would never try to get in someone's head like you tried.

I call bad form on your part lorider...

lorider
09-09-2013, 07:31 AM
I hate sandbagging period. I also hate Sharking period.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

If you really think he's a sandbager as you stated, you handled it quite poorly I think. If I was so inclined, I would have talked with the league operator and issued a formal complaint. But I would never try to get in someone's head like you tried.

I call bad form on your part lorider...

you know.... i gotta agree with you on this. i thought along the lines you do before i spoke to him. after playing against him in apa for 3 years i had enough and said something to him.

now as far as going to the lo,,, with what ? my suspicions ?

thats kinds like me being a kid playing a game with my brother and then running to mama and saying he is cheating.

i chose the lesser of 2 evils and let him out himself.

i dont think sharking is an accurate description of what i accomplished anyway. isnt sharking what you do when you are trying to beat an opponent, not get him to play his best.

Koop
09-09-2013, 07:40 AM
I actually like the way you handled it.
Instead of coming across as whiny to the LO you bruised his ego enough to make him shoot all out and do it to himself.

Lots of gray areas but I think the way you handled it was just fine, IMO.

pogmothoin
09-09-2013, 07:40 AM
The fall session will only be my third in the APA so I'm no expert on the APA.

That said, I find that many turn a blind eye to sandbaggers. There are some that openly brag about their sandbagging prowess. From what I've seen though it is the only way they can keep their teams together and still meet the 23 rule. They are usually found on the teams that consistently make the playoffs and go to Vegas so I guess it validates their behavior.

I've played at least three matches where I suspected the other player was sandbagging. I took my victory and walked away feeling like I was slimed, but I will take the "W" every time. If my team ever makes the playoffs I just hope I'm lucky enough to play them again and prove that cheaters never win.

I think it's kind of sad that these people have so little faith in their ability to win a fair match that they resort to cheating.

Playing in the APA is a fun diversion, if I need to go to Vegas in August that badly I'll buy a ticket and keep my integrity.

Birriards
09-09-2013, 07:45 AM
The more I read about APA, the dumber it sounds.

RioSevario
09-09-2013, 07:45 AM
Sandbaggers in general irritate me. I was a team captain in TAP and while watching obvious shanking of shots by both my player and the captain of the other team I reported both to our league operator. I know a lot of APA players that don't consider it cheating to "manipulate" their handicaps. Most of the time they do it just so they can keep the team together and play Nationals.

Maniac
09-09-2013, 07:53 AM
Just curious, was it two break and runs? Never saw a four do that. But saw a 4 run a rack of 9b before
if the layout is easy. I can imagine one runout + two partial racks is possible for a four. Still fishy though.

My wife had a break-and-run in APA 9-ball as a SL3. It took a decent table layout and both of her timeouts to get-r-done though.

Needless to say, the other team didn't share in her excitement after the fact.

She was raised to a SL4 several weeks afterwards.

Maniac

justadub
09-09-2013, 08:10 AM
Agreed.

This silly nit should have the 4 whisper in HIS ear.:rolleyes: He is smart enough to be a 4 and this guy isn't.

:eek:

KEN

Yeah, he is smart enough to cheat, and not get caught.

Nice to see you applauding that fact. Cuz, of course, its great to be a cheater, right? If you are "smart enough" to get away with it, I mean... Oh hell, its only APA, nothing wrong with that, huh?

Sheesh.

Maniac
09-09-2013, 08:14 AM
Playing in the APA is a fun diversion, if I need to go to Vegas in August that badly I'll buy a ticket and keep my integrity.


You think a lot like I do, except I have not one, single, small urge to ever go to Las Vegas. That plane fare could be better spent on something else, imo.

I have never understood what the big deal is about going to Vegas to play pool in a tournament where if you suddenly get on a roll (catch a gear), you are subject to being raised a skill level (forget what you had been shooting like the past 16 weeks) and possibly disqualified. I'd rather stay home and play local tournaments.

Maniac

Celophanewrap
09-09-2013, 08:56 AM
The fall session will only be my third in the APA so I'm no expert on the APA.

That said, I find that many turn a blind eye to sandbaggers. There are some that openly brag about their sandbagging prowess. From what I've seen though it is the only way they can keep their teams together and still meet the 23 rule. They are usually found on the teams that consistently make the playoffs and go to Vegas so I guess it validates their behavior.

I've played at least three matches where I suspected the other player was sandbagging. I took my victory and walked away feeling like I was slimed, but I will take the "W" every time. If my team ever makes the playoffs I just hope I'm lucky enough to play them again and prove that cheaters never win.

I think it's kind of sad that these people have so little faith in their ability to win a fair match that they resort to cheating.

Playing in the APA is a fun diversion, if I need to go to Vegas in August that badly I'll buy a ticket and keep my integrity.

Many do turn a blind eye to the sandbaggers, looking at it from a certain perspective I suspect that I'm among those that do. A while back I came to the realization that there was nothing I could do about it. The thing is that we'd ALL need to play fair for the system to work and lets' face it, regardless of the league or tournament that just ain't gonna happen. Someone earlier mentioned something about keeping their integrity. I have found the best way to do that is to take care of my own house, I can't worry about what that sandbaggin' 4 is doing on the other team, if I do it the right way I can maintain my integrity win or lose. But the sandbaggers are everywhere. It might be hard for some of you accept but they're on your very own team too. "Oh no, not on my team, they wouldn't be playing with me for very long if they did that"
Dude, please... think about it and be honest. I know you can point to a time where you saw it happen but managed to justify it somehow because it was your team or your buddy.
And we all have times where we couldn't throw it in the ocean if we were standing in a boat, and of course there are the times when we've had such pin point control it was scary - not because you were sandbagging, but because sometimes it just happens. Far too many of us b!tch and moan about the other guy when the reality is maybe you're just playing bad and they're playing good. Then there are actual sandbaggers and cheaters, what can you do? So you clean one out, you think there won't be another one tomorrow? a better one? If I had one wish for all league players it would be for each one of us to mind our own game and not worry about anyone else's. It's league night, have a beer, flirt with the girls, tell a joke and have some fun. The sandbaggers will always be there and some of them really need, mentally and emotionally, to do what they do. Play your own game, soon enough it won't matter how much the next guy sandbags.

justadub
09-09-2013, 09:12 AM
Many do turn a blind eye to the sandbaggers, looking at it from a certain perspective I suspect that I'm among those that do. A while back I came to the realization that there was nothing I could do about it. The thing is that we'd ALL need to play fair for the system to work and lets' face it, regardless of the league or tournament that just ain't gonna happen. Someone earlier mentioned something about keeping their integrity. I have found the best way to do that is to take care of my own house, I can't worry about what that sandbaggin' 4 is doing on the other team, if I do it the right way I can maintain my integrity win or lose. But the sandbaggers are everywhere. It might be hard for some of you accept but they're on your very own team too. "Oh no, not on my team, they wouldn't be playing with me for very long if they did that"
Dude, please... think about it and be honest. I know you can point to a time where you saw it happen but managed to justify it somehow because it was your team or your buddy.
And we all have times where we couldn't throw it in the ocean if we were standing in a boat, and of course there are the times when we've had such pin point control it was scary - not because you were sandbagging, but because sometimes it just happens. Far too many of us b!tch and moan about the other guy when the reality is maybe you're just playing bad and they're playing good. Then there are actual sandbaggers and cheaters, what can you do? So you clean one out, you think there won't be another one tomorrow? a better one? If I had one wish for all league players it would be for each one of us to mind our own game and not worry about anyone else's. It's league night, have a beer, flirt with the girls, tell a joke and have some fun. The sandbaggers will always be there and some of them really need, mentally and emotionally, to do what they do. Play your own game, soon enough it won't matter how much the next guy sandbags.

Very nice. :thumbup:

Ken_4fun
09-09-2013, 09:22 AM
Yeah, he is smart enough to cheat, and not get caught.

Nice to see you applauding that fact. Cuz, of course, its great to be a cheater, right? If you are "smart enough" to get away with it, I mean... Oh hell, its only APA, nothing wrong with that, huh?

Sheesh.

Yep, that's what I said. :thumbup:

Ken

jhanso18
09-09-2013, 10:19 AM
The APA punishes players for getting TOO good, what do you expect to happen? I play a VNEA league here in SD, and for the most part these guys will jump over each other to be the best.

There is an APA league here as well, filled with sand baggers, so they don't have to break their teams apart. I don't blame them, and I don't care. I hate hearing from APA people about sand baggers. If you don't like them, don't play in a league that generates them by the dozens...

pwd72s
09-09-2013, 10:34 AM
Gotta laugh through this...

Overhead at a Porsche Club amateur race:

One racer to a race steward, pointint to a car: "He's cheating."

Race Steward: "How do you know?"

Racer; "Because I'm cheating and he outpulls me in the straights."

jhanso18
09-09-2013, 10:40 AM
Gotta laugh through this...

Overhead at a Porsche Club amateur race:

One racer to a race steward, pointint to a car: "He's cheating."

Race Steward: "How do you know?"

Racer; "Because I'm cheating and he outpulls me in the straights."

In racing, there are two types, cheaters, and losers...

Or so the old saying goes. I've heard similar in almost every type of racing. (though not usually said to the stewards.)

Tronpocket
09-09-2013, 10:49 AM
Sandbaggers never prosper,
funny these mediocre pool players who think they have the skill to control the game on all levels. When they lose, and use the self comforting excuse "well i had to lose to keep my rating down" excuse, when infact they thought they could "pad " their innings and still win against you.
Teams can play the numbers game but how many times ive seen it fail or backfire in some way is more then ive heard it work, it almost always come back and bites em in the arse, and always at the most crucial times, i.e. playoffs, cities, ect.
And then there are the teams that get to fly out to vegas and are immedietally disqualified , we hear about them every year.
Just play masters if you want to play apa without any B.S. its more fun, better format, more of a challenge and more gratifying if you win.

A.P.A. should have a "sandbagger " patch, they got a patch for everything else..:rolleyes:

Tronpocket----------->NEVER lost to a sandbagger ......on purpose....:grin-square:

Manoman2444
09-09-2013, 11:14 AM
Just curious, was it two break and runs? Never saw a four do that. But saw a 4 run a rack of 9b before
if the layout is easy. I can imagine one runout + two partial racks is possible for a four. Still fishy though.

Saw a 2 run out a 9 ball rack! Also saw a 2 bank 4 balls in a row!

RRfireblade
09-09-2013, 11:25 AM
A 4 getting smoked by an 8 isn't sandbagging.

Pissing him off so he comes back and smokes your 8......well I guess you showed him huh.

Now you only have to do that 9 more times and maybe he'll be a 5 by the time he and his team wins the league.

Assuming of course he hasn't already figured out the way APA handicaps works...in the last 8 years of maintaining his 4 SL.

Probably should a pissed him off while he has playing team in the spot right above yours instead.

:)

bigshooter
09-09-2013, 11:27 AM
How much cash did you win?

Ken_4fun
09-09-2013, 12:00 PM
The APA punishes players for getting TOO good, what do you expect to happen? I play a VNEA league here in SD, and for the most part these guys will jump over each other to be the best.

There is an APA league here as well, filled with sand baggers, so they don't have to break their teams apart. I don't blame them, and I don't care. I hate hearing from APA people about sand baggers. If you don't like them, don't play in a league that generates them by the dozens...

Justin -

That is my point exactly.

I too, tire of hearing these "sandbagging" tales.

To be successful in this format you must. Put your big boy pants on and move on.

Ken

Icon of Sin
09-09-2013, 12:06 PM
Wow. He really kicked your player's ass. You showed him LOL.

bigshooter
09-09-2013, 12:09 PM
I could never bring myself to the level of sandbagging. Unless of course cheddar is involved.

DogsPlayingPool
09-09-2013, 12:15 PM
Wow. He really kicked your player's ass. You showed him LOL.

Yep, snatched defeat right out of the jaws of victory. ;)

jhanso18
09-09-2013, 01:17 PM
I really don't mean to sound like a dick hear. It is what it is. APA is great for beginners, but it punishes the experienced. APA brings in new players, and thats great. I like them for that, but don't ***** about sand baggers. It is what it is.

justadub
09-09-2013, 01:24 PM
I really don't mean to sound like a dick hear. It is what it is. APA is great for beginners, but it punishes the experienced. APA brings in new players, and thats great. I like them for that, but don't ***** about sand baggers. It is what it is.

So again, its ok to cheat, cuz "it's only APA, it is what it is", am I correct?

ScottK
09-09-2013, 01:33 PM
dont think that guy will be a 4 next week. :wink:

I'll bet he is.

CreeDo
09-09-2013, 01:42 PM
The APA punishes players for getting TOO good, what do you expect to happen? I play a VNEA league here in SD, and for the most part these guys will jump over each other to be the best.

This isn't a logical way of looking at it. There's no punishment.
If you join an amateur handicapped league, you must play by amateur handicapped league rules.

One of the rules is, you can't have too many strong players on one team.
There are no exceptions to the rule like "unless you've all been friends a long time" or
"unless you've been playing together for years".

So, it's not punishment when you're asked to play by the rules.
If I enter a restaurant that says "jacket required" and I don't have a jacket, I don't say
"they punished me for the way I like to dress".


Saw a 2 run out a 9 ball rack! Also saw a 2 bank 4 balls in a row!

Our team has the only 1 in the league and she banked 2 balls in, then made 2 long shots I'd be scared of.

That's why I'm very skeptical of people who cry sandbagger. Most of the time they're just
overreacting to a fluke. You gotta look at the stats overall rather than one crazy match.

Wow. He really kicked your player's ass. You showed him LOL.

Thought the same thing... to me, the time to report and 'deal with' sandbagging is when
someone is shooting phenomenal and going to crush you. Not when they're shooting crappy
and handing you a free win. I'll take the free win now, and then you can try to get away with suddenly
playing 5 speeds better in the regionals or finals. That can easily backfire.

lorider
09-09-2013, 03:29 PM
ok guys ... i knew this thread would stir up a lil controversy. i also knew some people would see my viewpoint and some would start with the nit name calling or i would come across as a whiner or complainer.

to the posters that stated i cost my team a win... yea i did. but you know what ? i want every teamate to earn their wins. i dont want their win % inflated by people laying down on them and cause any of my players handicap to go up undeservedly.

to some one that said it is what it is and just have fun and accept the league for what it is. well i have done that for 3 years. i can fade rule breakers, or shall i say people that interpret the rules in their favor. i can fade people making obvious fouls and then denying it. i can fade all the b.s. and drama and just enjoy playing pool.

i also know that sometimes people can play above theirselves and also have nights where nothing goes their way. i am a prime example of that .:D

but..... when i overhear a player bragging to a teamate that he runs up innings and never attempts to beat a player with a higher s/l than him. i can even fade that for a while. but when our team faced that same player this time and saw that lil smirk on his face when he was walking back to the table after missing an easy shot it got to me.

i was not going to out him. i decided to bruise his ego a lil and let him out himself. what did i gain from this ? probably nothing but proving to my self what i knew and other people suspected about him. and that is that this player is capable of playing way above the skill level he displays week after week.

one more thing about causing my team a loss, we still won 52-48.

let me ask you this. suppose i had just kept my mouth shut ? my 8 has been playing at a pretty high level, suppose he had won this game and was raised to a 9 ? i dont have room on my team for a 9. i would have hurt my team worse by not saying nothing.

let me reiterrate, i have no problem with anyone going up on their own merits, that means they are improving and deserve to be raised . but i darn sure cant afford people to be raised due to some people dumping their games and my player is not really capable of playing at a higher level.

lorider
09-09-2013, 03:47 PM
My wife had a break-and-run in APA 9-ball as a SL3. It took a decent table layout and both of her timeouts to get-r-done though.

Needless to say, the other team didn't share in her excitement after the fact.

She was raised to a SL4 several weeks afterwards.

Maniac

i know what you are saying maniac. our sunday night division has more teams than bar tables available. every week 2 teams rotate playing on the 9's. just so happened one week my gf "a 2 " had a break and run on the 9 footer without a single time out. subsequently a couple of weeks later she was raised to a 3.

here it is a year later and she is still the weakest 3 in the division.:confused:

lorider
09-09-2013, 03:48 PM
Wow. He really kicked your player's ass. You showed him LOL.

i just gotta say . that made me lmao. :grin-square:

Maniac
09-09-2013, 05:26 PM
i know what you are saying maniac. our sunday night division has more teams than bar tables available. every week 2 teams rotate playing on the 9's. just so happened one week my gf "a 2 " had a break and run on the 9 footer without a single time out. subsequently a couple of weeks later she was raised to a 3.

here it is a year later and she is still the weakest 3 in the division.:confused:


And.......as of today, my wife is still the weakest SL4 at our pool hall.

Maniac

Ken_4fun
09-09-2013, 05:29 PM
i know what you are saying maniac. our sunday night division has more teams than bar tables available. every week 2 teams rotate playing on the 9's. just so happened one week my gf "a 2 " had a break and run on the 9 footer without a single time out. subsequently a couple of weeks later she was raised to a 3.

here it is a year later and she is still the weakest 3 in the division.:confused:

I agree, seems like you get raised up a lot faster than you can ever be lowered.

Ken

lorider
09-09-2013, 06:41 PM
I agree, seems like you get raised up a lot faster than you can ever be lowered.

Ken

well... something we both agree on.:thumbup:

let me share this story with you ken. actually 2 stories.

i play in the wed night money league at hi pockets that i know you have played in before, last session as a matter of fact.

i think we will both agree that thwre are a lot of nice guys in that league and most play pretty sporty. i 1st played in that league for 2 sessions about 8 years ago . got out of it until last session.

well i have known rick the lo all this time and he is a pretty cool guy. when i put a team in the league last session he trusted the handicaps i recommended for my players because i brought in some new faces. well my gf started as a 3 and she is an apa 3.

well after a few weeks she went to a 6. also her son " a 15 year old boy " who has not shot pool more than 6 months total his whole life was raised to a 6 also. it was killing our team.

they were not raised because of their playing ability, they were raised because of guys dumping on them. as you know it is a bcapl points based league. all that matters is how many points you average a week.

we had several opponents on a few teams that would put break and runs on our best players shutting them out with no points. then magically turn into bangers against an apa 3 and a 15 year old boy who has never played league. i counted one match after one of them putting up 3 break and runs in a row going 15 innings against my gf before she finally won 9-6, and 12 innings against her son who won 9-5.

so you got 3 guys on one team doing that which means each one wins 41 - 18 or 19 against our team. they hold our team to nothing and maintain their 40 point average which holds them at an 8 handicap.

after 2 consecutive weeks of that , boom she shoots to a 6 and i gotta hear her bragging all the way home how she scored more points than me. 30 to my 18 because i only broke twice and won both of them. remember the other 3 rounds i had break an runs put on me while they dumped to her.

now contrary to what some of my posts on here may lead you to believe otherwise i am not a complainer or whiner. just stating facts.

i , as you stated do put on my big boy pants and fade this shit.actually a mutual aquaintance of yours and mine who plays on my team did talk to rick and get my gf lowered to a 5 this session. we still think she oughta be a 3 lol.

actually i really like this league , its a change of pace from apa. ilike i said i have known most of the players since i 1st went to hi pockets 8 years ago.

also another poster said if you dont like sandbagging then dont play. this aqquaintance of ours son did just that last session. he dropped off our team because he said he did not like the sandbagging going on.

he went back to apa. IMAGINE THAT ! he went back to apa because he did not like sandbaging under the bcapl format lol.:rolleyes:

this post is long enough. the other story later.

ScottK
09-09-2013, 07:19 PM
well... something we both agree on.:thumbup:

let me share this story with you ken. actually 2 stories.

i play in the wed night money league at hi pockets that i know you have played in before, last session as a matter of fact.

i think we will both agree that thwre are a lot of nice guys in that league and most play pretty sporty. i 1st played in that league for 2 sessions about 8 years ago . got out of it until last session.

well i have known rick the lo all this time and he is a pretty cool guy. when i put a team in the league last session he trusted the handicaps i recommended for my players because i brought in some new faces. well my gf started as a 3 and she is an apa 3.

well after a few weeks she went to a 6. also her son " a 15 year old boy " who has not shot pool more than 6 months total his whole life was raised to a 6 also. it was killing our team.

they were not raised because of their playing ability, they were raised because of guys dumping on them. as you know it is a bcapl points based league. all that matters is how many points you average a week.

we had several opponents on a few teams that would put break and runs on our best players shutting them out with no points. then magically turn into bangers against an apa 3 and a 15 year old boy who has never played league. i counted one match after one of them putting up 3 break and runs in a row going 15 innings against my gf before she finally won 9-6, and 12 innings against her son who won 9-5.

so you got 3 guys on one team doing that which means each one wins 41 - 18 or 19 against our team. they hold our team to nothing and maintain their 40 point average which holds them at an 8 handicap.

after 2 consecutive weeks of that , boom she shoots to a 6 and i gotta hear her bragging all the way home how she scored more points than me. 30 to my 18 because i only broke twice and won both of them. remember the other 3 rounds i had break an runs put on me while they dumped to her.

now contrary to what some of my posts on here may lead you to believe otherwise i am not a complainer or whiner. just stating facts.

i , as you stated do put on my big boy pants and fade this shit.actually a mutual aquaintance of yours and mine who plays on my team did talk to rick and get my gf lowered to a 5 this session. we still think she oughta be a 3 lol.

actually i really like this league , its a change of pace from apa. ilike i said i have known most of the players since i 1st went to hi pockets 8 years ago.

also another poster said if you dont like sandbagging then dont play. this aqquaintance of ours son did just that last session. he dropped off our team because he said he did not like the sandbagging going on.

he went back to apa. IMAGINE THAT ! he went back to apa because he did not like sandbaging under the bcapl format lol.:rolleyes:

this post is long enough. the other story later.

So, just to make certain we're clear here, other than this post, and the first one in this thread, and what some of your other posts lead us to believe, you're not a complainer or a whiner?

lorider
09-09-2013, 08:03 PM
.................

lorider
09-09-2013, 08:10 PM
................

Celophanewrap
09-09-2013, 09:03 PM
I think that sandbagging is a fact of league life. They will always be there, one's need to sandbag it's a certain kind of mental/emotional sickness and they should be thought of that way.
Do you go out of your way to avoid folks that are blind or have MS or are missing a limb or are mentally handicapped? Do you tell them they need to seek a cure because they bother you?
Let me preface this by saying that folks that are a little "slower" or have down syndrome or something similar should never be called retarded. when used in that way it's an ugly word, similar to the 'N' word or if you're a woman, the 'C' word, you know something like that. However, the word 'retarded' does have a place and use in the English language and can be used properly. People that I mentioned in the first paragraph, people that intentionally play below their actual skill level for the sake of league match, well, those folks are retarded. There's no other explanation.
Let the sandbaggers be, they need that. The same way a smoker needs a cigarette, or an alcoholic needs a drink. sometimes they do have a moment of clarity, sometimes the do want to reform, but that's pretty rare and generally they don't want my help, but they'd love another smoke or drink.
I'll take the win, hell, I play bad enough for it all to even out anyways. Leave them be, they'll always be there. They're like AIDS or cancer, you can treat the symptom but as of yet there is no cure.

allanpsand
09-10-2013, 12:09 PM
The APA punishes players for getting TOO good, what do you expect to happen?

Ditto on this. That "cap" is what creates serious problems in team management. The 23 cap forces a dependency on below average team members. If it was a 25 cap, a lot of these problems would disappear.

RRfireblade
09-10-2013, 12:33 PM
Ditto on this. That "cap" is what creates serious problems in team management. The 23 cap forces a dependency on below average team members. If it was a 25 cap, a lot of these problems would disappear.

The cap is part of the business model. People either forget or are not aware that the APA is nothing more than a franchise business. They can be bought and sold and are operated not terribly unlike a Snap-On/Matco/Etc type regional structure. The primary goal is to continue to attract new customers and to further perpetuate the business with integral dependency.

The cap does three things to perpetuate the model, one is to keep teams from filling up with maxed out SLs which would both scare off these "new" players from joining and forming teams as well as eliminate any chance of weaker staffed teams to be competitive killing future participation. These "new" customers are likely to start low and improve over time with regular weekly play therefore the second tier is to force teams to split into more teams as they reache the cap and thirdly, this splitting of teams forces the players themselves to have no choice but to recruit more 'customers' to join the support the business further.

It's quite a well thought out and orchestrated model and it's not going anywhere. :)

deanosdino
09-10-2013, 12:46 PM
Sandbagging is common in APA. It's a good system for neophytes but a skill level 5 or better should play in a non-handicap league if they want fair play. Handicap leagues don't do anything to increase knowledge or skill for a seasoned player, they're only good for beginers or sandbaggers! Funny how often sandbaggers turn out to be local hustlers. Maybe the challenge lies in the concealment of their skills?

alstl
09-10-2013, 12:49 PM
Wow. He really kicked your player's ass. You showed him LOL.

I was thinking the same thing.

jhanso18
09-10-2013, 12:58 PM
So again, its ok to cheat, cuz "it's only APA, it is what it is", am I correct?

Unfortunately YES.


Here's the thing. You get on a team, you all have a good time. You guys want to play together, but 1 guy gets a little too good, now what? O looky there, he had a HORRIBLE week...

There are stronger and weaker teams in every devision of the VNEA league i play. If your team plays to what they are capable of, it is close EVERYTIME. I mean with in a few balls.

The same system is employed in summer league where you have teams from the very bottom (B2) all the way up to the masters teams. My team, a very average speed team snapped off the top team in the league with this handicap system. 3 masters players vs. 2 average guys and 1 pretty good player. We played to where we were capable of, and won. NO SANDBAGGING...

The APA handicap limit is a JOKE. Change the spots, or the system so people could play with out sand bagging and the sand baggers would stop... NOT A REAL COMPLICATED IDEA IF YOU ASK ME! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Banks
09-10-2013, 01:00 PM
Sandbagging is common in APA. It's a good system for neophytes but a skill level 5 or better should play in a non-handicap league if they want fair play. Handicap leagues don't do anything to increase knowledge or skill for a seasoned player, they're only good for beginers or sandbaggers! Funny how often sandbaggers turn out to be local hustlers. Maybe the challenge lies in the concealment of their skills?

I'm a 7/9, guess I should left my first year before I stopped learning anything. 5's get run over in any decent BCA division I've played in. Well, except of course when they play other 5-and-below players. It's closer to the truth to say that claims of sandbagging are common.

mfarrey71
09-10-2013, 01:44 PM
I played APA for three years and the sandbagging is clearly evident when you go to Vegas for the National Tournament. The one time I went out there I saw skill level 4's and 5's in 8-ball getting up and breaking and running racks consistently. I was a SL8 and in one the mini tournaments I had a guy who was a SL5 break and run the set on me I didn't even get to shoot not one shot! After I came back from vegas I finished my session and quit.

I love on their advertising how they say "Win a FREE trip to Las Vegas" me and my partner won our mixed doubles 8-ball league and the money we won to go didn't even cover our airfare and hotel!

justadub
09-10-2013, 01:52 PM
Unfortunately YES.


Here's the thing. You get on a team, you all have a good time. You guys want to play together, but 1 guy gets a little too good, now what? O looky there, he had a HORRIBLE week...

There are stronger and weaker teams in every devision of the VNEA league i play. If your team plays to what they are capable of, it is close EVERYTIME. I mean with in a few balls.

The same system is employed in summer league where you have teams from the very bottom (B2) all the way up to the masters teams. My team, a very average speed team snapped off the top team in the league with this handicap system. 3 masters players vs. 2 average guys and 1 pretty good player. We played to where we were capable of, and won. NO SANDBAGGING...

The APA handicap limit is a JOKE. Change the spots, or the system so people could play with out sand bagging and the sand baggers would stop... NOT A REAL COMPLICATED IDEA IF YOU ASK ME! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Not to sound like a broken record, I just want to be clear, its ok to cheat then?

To me, cheating is cheating. You can't justify it. Not because you wanna play with your buddies, not because "everyone else is doing it"..... You are saying it is ok to cheat.

Therein lies the problem. Too many people will come up with a justification for cheating.

And raising the cap wouldn't stop it. After all, guys will still wanna play with their buddies, right? Oh that's right, that makes it ok. I forgot. Or do you think higher level players dont have buddies, too?

jhanso18
09-10-2013, 01:56 PM
Not to sound like a broken record, I just want to be clear, its ok to cheat then?

To me, cheating is cheating. You can't justify it. Not because you wanna play with your buddies, not because "everyone else is doing it"..... You are saying it is ok to cheat.

Therein lies the problem. Too many people will come up with a justification for cheating.

And raising the cap wouldn't stop it. After all, guys will still wanna play with their buddies, right? Oh that's right, that makes it ok. I forgot. Or do you think higher level players dont have buddies, too?

Yea, in the current APA system, it doesn't even bug me a little. If you eliminated the cap, made the system so that say and SL8 give an SL3 3-4 games, and the 6-7 out, yeah, you wouldn't have half the problem. There are almost NO sand baggers in my leagues.

I agree with you to a certain extent that cheating is wrong. I guess I don't see sand bagging as cheating really. Just working within the system your stuck in.

justadub
09-10-2013, 02:04 PM
Yea, in the current APA system, it doesn't even bug me a little. If you eliminated the cap, made the system so that say and SL8 give an SL3 3-4 games, and the 6-7 out, yeah, you wouldn't have half the problem. There are almost NO sand baggers in my leagues.

I agree with you to a certain extent that cheating is wrong. I guess I don't see sand bagging as cheating really. Just working within the system your stuck in.

Sandbagging is against the rules, as they are written.

You don't agree with that rule, thus you justify breaking that rule intentionally, which I consider cheating. You do not.

It's not the end of the world. And you are far from alone.

I just wanted to clarify the argument.

Banks
09-10-2013, 02:06 PM
I played APA for three years and the sandbagging is clearly evident when you go to Vegas for the National Tournament. The one time I went out there I saw skill level 4's and 5's in 8-ball getting up and breaking and running racks consistently. I was a SL8 and in one the mini tournaments I had a guy who was a SL5 break and run the set on me I didn't even get to shoot not one shot! After I came back from vegas I finished my session and quit.

I love on their advertising how they say "Win a FREE trip to Las Vegas" me and my partner won our mixed doubles 8-ball league and the money we won to go didn't even cover our airfare and hotel!

I've gone to singles nationals 4 times, 3 for myself and once for my g/f. No idea what you're talking about for the 4's get bnr's consistently. A 5 should be able to break and run and can even shoot like a 7 for a few racks. Last time I went down, I think I only had 1 bnr in my first 5 or 6 matches. I also get $200 for airfare and don't have to pay for a room. Not sure what to make of your post.

jhanso18
09-10-2013, 02:25 PM
Sandbagging is against the rules, as they are written.

You don't agree with that rule, thus you justify breaking that rule intentionally, which I consider cheating. You do not.

It's not the end of the world. And you are far from alone.

I just wanted to clarify the argument.


It's all good Dub. I hear what your saying, I just disagree. I think APA does a great job bringing in amatuers. And I actually like alot of there rules like coaching is allowed and stuff like that. I just dont see the point in punishing the good players.

I don't like it, but the APA has made it this way.

Banks
09-10-2013, 02:48 PM
I just dont see the point in punishing the good players.

I don't like it, but the APA has made it this way.

The flip side could be..

If I'm a 7 playing a 2 in an even race, would I even get any better at all knowing that I don't even stand a chance of losing? Handicaps force honest players to put forth effort. The way I've always seen it is; if I'm a 6 in 9b, I want to be a good 6. After that, I become a 7, then my goal is to be a good 7, etc. Now my goal is to crush my opponent.

CreeDo
09-11-2013, 09:15 AM
The APA handicap limit is a JOKE. Change the spots, or the system so people could play with out sand bagging and the sand baggers would stop.

I get what you're saying. If the handicapping is fair, then in theory a team of 1's could play a team of 9's,
it would be a perfect 50/50 coin flip who would win, right? So why not allow a team of 9's to compete?
With a fair handicap, they shouldn't be any more dominant than some other team.

On paper it doesn't sound bad, but here's why it can't work in reality.

• Sometimes the skill gap is so huge, there is no handicap big enough.
A SL9 can play a SL1 100 racks of 8 ball, and will probably win 100/100.
OK, a less extreme example, a SL6 vs. SL3... maybe the SL3 wins 1 out of 10 racks.

There isn't enough time to play ten racks of 8 ball.
Races to 11 might make sense for the US Open, but league night people have jobs in the morning.
You just can't make races long enough to be 100% fair, even if you calculate the spot perfectly.

• You can't calculate the spot perfectly. I know of no bulletproof formula. The APA system is decent
but generally favors the better player. The 7,8,9 ranked players in our league have 60-80% win rates.
The 1's and 2's tend to go under 50%.

• If you make a perfect handicapping system then your win rate will hover around 50%. Be honest,
would you be happy with that? What's your win rate in whatever league you play? I bet it's higher.
Unless you're totally playing just to be social, I bet 50% would kind of piss you off, right?
Strong players have a hard time accepting a loss. Our team full of 9's would have half of them
quit the first week, once they realized every match was basically a coin toss.

Last point... whether you think the APA made the 23 rule for altruistic reasons ("let's encourage newbies!")
or selfish reasons ("let's break up teams and make money!"), it seems to work because the league
is very successful. If you removed the 23 cap tomorrow, I strongly suspect it would shrink rapidly.

RRfireblade
09-11-2013, 10:02 AM
Handicaps are never fair. The greater the spread, the greater the disparity between fairness.

The lower level you are the more likely you are to shoot over your handicap and the greater the possible range one might exceed it by. As one approaches the Max possible skill level l, the opposite scenerio exists.

Then in games like pool, where it is possible to shoot a perfect game (runout), there is no possible handicap method to compensate any other level.

Tobby
09-11-2013, 10:09 AM
Just curious, was it two break and runs? Never saw a four do that. But saw a 4 run a rack of 9b before
if the layout is easy. I can imagine one runout + two partial racks is possible for a four. Still fishy though.

LOL you havent played in memphis ..

We joke that playing handicap around there is like this.

Player 1 " Hi Iam a 4 cause that is the number of racks i can run in a row"

LOL

I had a 2 run 2 racks on me from the break out and im playing as a 9 trying to fade it .

Ohwell its all in fun.

jhanso18
09-11-2013, 10:18 AM
I get what you're saying. If the handicapping is fair, then in theory a team of 1's could play a team of 9's,
it would be a perfect 50/50 coin flip who would win, right? So why not allow a team of 9's to compete?
With a fair handicap, they shouldn't be any more dominant than some other team.

On paper it doesn't sound bad, but here's why it can't work in reality.

• Sometimes the skill gap is so huge, there is no handicap big enough.
A SL9 can play a SL1 100 racks of 8 ball, and will probably win 100/100.
OK, a less extreme example, a SL6 vs. SL3... maybe the SL3 wins 1 out of 10 racks.

There isn't enough time to play ten racks of 8 ball.
Races to 11 might make sense for the US Open, but league night people have jobs in the morning.
You just can't make races long enough to be 100% fair, even if you calculate the spot perfectly.

• You can't calculate the spot perfectly. I know of no bulletproof formula. The APA system is decent
but generally favors the better player. The 7,8,9 ranked players in our league have 60-80% win rates.
The 1's and 2's tend to go under 50%.

• If you make a perfect handicapping system then your win rate will hover around 50%. Be honest,
would you be happy with that? What's your win rate in whatever league you play? I bet it's higher.
Unless you're totally playing just to be social, I bet 50% would kind of piss you off, right?
Strong players have a hard time accepting a loss. Our team full of 9's would have half of them
quit the first week, once they realized every match was basically a coin toss.

Last point... whether you think the APA made the 23 rule for altruistic reasons ("let's encourage newbies!")
or selfish reasons ("let's break up teams and make money!"), it seems to work because the league
is very successful. If you removed the 23 cap tomorrow, I strongly suspect it would shrink rapidly.


I've played tourney's where the spots are both games on wire and ball spots, depending on speed. that's the best way to do it. I agree that your damned if you do or don't, but I wont play APA for that reason exactly. You could also make separate divisions, (common sense to me.) In our league we have B2, B1, A3 (division 1&2 because of how large it is.) A2, A1, AA, and masters division. Plus we also have league for all women, B1, A2, A1, and womens masters. No one sand bags, because it doesn't help to sand bag. You just do your best and the chips fall where they will.

Seems a better system to me. I still like APA for beginners. I'd wager the APA brings in more new pool players per year than ANYTHING else in the states.

Eitherway, the best solution is to just play. Stop complaining and just have fun. If you're not having fun, why play in the first place?

lorider
09-11-2013, 10:43 AM
LOL you havent played in memphis ..

We joke that playing handicap around there is like this.

Player 1 " Hi Iam a 4 cause that is the number of racks i can run in a row"

LOL

I had a 2 run 2 racks on me from the break out and im playing as a 9 trying to fade it .

Ohwell its all in fun.

i have never seen a 4 run 4 racks here or for that matter a 2 run 2 rack . a 9 huh ?

i only know of 1 9 in apa.

several 9's in bcapl points money league.

where do you play ?

DogsPlayingPool
09-11-2013, 10:43 AM
Last point... whether you think the APA made the 23 rule for altruistic reasons ("let's encourage newbies!")
or selfish reasons ("let's break up teams and make money!"), it seems to work because the league
is very successful. If you removed the 23 cap tomorrow, I strongly suspect it would shrink rapidly.

I have to wonder if the 23 rule has any significant impact on growing the league at this point. Maybe in the early years but it's pretty likely the league and the market have matured. I'd guess that for the most part the 23 rule only results in players switching from one APA team to another with no net gain in membership. One team has to get rid of a "9" and that guy ends up on another APA team that needs a strong player. And that player's old team then picks up a weaker player from another APA team. But there is probably very little new blood coming in anymore from this rule. In fact, couldn't it have the opposite effect at this point? Say the "9" goes on another APA team and they dump their weakest player. No other team in that area needs to pick up a crappy player so the net result to the APA is the loss of that player.

I just don't think it's like it was in the early days where there were a lot of regulars in the pool hall every day that didn't join the league initially and these people provided a ready pool of new players.

Tobby
09-11-2013, 12:56 PM
i have never seen a 4 run 4 racks here or for that matter a 2 run 2 rack . a 9 huh ?

i only know of 1 9 in apa.

several 9's in bcapl points money league.

where do you play ?

Im not in the APA BCA .. my comment was towards most handicap events in memphis.

sorry to ruffle your feathers was typed as kinda a joke . But YES i have had 4's run 4 racks and out on me in memphis and YES i have had a 2 run 2 racks and out on me in memphis.
Had a guy tell me he was a 3 when i asked his handicap and i was like no way... he says yeah im a 3 cause i couldnt win as a 6 LOL.

lorider
09-11-2013, 01:24 PM
Im not in the APA BCA .. my comment was towards most handicap events in memphis.

sorry to ruffle your feathers was typed as kinda a joke . But YES i have had 4's run 4 racks and out on me in memphis and YES i have had a 2 run 2 racks and out on me in memphis.
Had a guy tell me he was a 3 when i asked his handicap and i was like no way... he says yeah im a 3 cause i couldnt win as a 6 LOL.

gotcha !!

i know what events you are talking about.

i dont know how the hell he comes up with those handicaps he does.

got a funny story to tell you bout my one and only time playing in his tourneys.

it was about 2 years ago i guess. i go up to him and say i want to enter. he has known me for a while and says you are going to be a 3. i say huh ? im thinking im better than a 3.

i play a few matches and win 2 before i get put in the losers bracket. i face this person who i have known for quite a while. we we go to the table to lag she asks me my handicap, i say a 3.

she replies , a 3 ? wtf ? her exact words. i say yea a 3, i say whats your handicap, she says a 4. i say a 4 ? wtf ? my exact words to her. well we both shrug and commence to play where she wins 4-2.

the kicker here is i believe i was an apa 4 at the time but may have been a 5. she was an apa 7 lol. the one and only time i played in those tourneys.

whats really funny is he held a team tourney a lil while back . i go down and watch and mingle with friends. i see one buddy who is an apa 5 rated a 4 in this event. i see another buddy who is an apa 7 rated a 3 in this event.

when i saw that it told me i made the right decision to never enter one of his events again.

lorider
09-11-2013, 01:29 PM
Im not in the APA BCA .. my comment was towards most handicap events in memphis.

sorry to ruffle your feathers was typed as kinda a joke . But YES i have had 4's run 4 racks and out on me in memphis and YES i have had a 2 run 2 racks and out on me in memphis.
Had a guy tell me he was a 3 when i asked his handicap and i was like no way... he says yeah im a 3 cause i couldnt win as a 6 LOL.

let me clarify something, if im wrong correct me. the events i think you are talking about are held at hi pockets with the last one being a team event held at sharpshooters.

tracy has promoted some of these but has no dealing with the handicapping that goes on. tracy does not run these himself, he just provides the location. the same thing with robby at sharpshooters,

Tobby
09-11-2013, 07:07 PM
well iw asnt goiing to say the name of the place because they really only supply the tables but yes high pockets is the place of the tournys im talking about. I dont mind being a 9 i really dont i play that good , but what i mind is some of the lower handicaps lol.. Oh and i have won several of the every 2 week tournys on sat night so this isnt coming from bad feelings of money .

lorider
09-11-2013, 08:16 PM
well iw asnt goiing to say the name of the place because they really only supply the tables but yes high pockets is the place of the tournys im talking about. I dont mind being a 9 i really dont i play that good , but what i mind is some of the lower handicaps lol.. Oh and i have won several of the every 2 week tournys on sat night so this isnt coming from bad feelings of money .

if you are the guy from jackson i am thinking about i can see you ranked pretty high. you play pretty darn good.

as for me i cant fade those master league players that are only ranked 1 notch above me in those tourneys lol.

i am glad you realize the room owner has nothing to do with establishing handicaps . he is about the best room owner any player could ask for.

Tobby
09-12-2013, 05:10 AM
Ohyeah tracey is about the BEST room owner i have ever known and dealt with and the pool room itself is GREAT. And yes im from jackson lol. Good job by the way getting the sandbagger trapped .

CreeDo
09-12-2013, 10:33 AM
I have to wonder if the 23 rule has any significant impact on growing the league at this point. Maybe in the early years but it's pretty likely the league and the market have matured. I'd guess that for the most part the 23 rule only results in players switching from one APA team to another with no net gain in membership. One team has to get rid of a "9" and that guy ends up on another APA team that needs a strong player. And that player's old team then picks up a weaker player from another APA team. But there is probably very little new blood coming in anymore from this rule. In fact, couldn't it have the opposite effect at this point? Say the "9" goes on another APA team and they dump their weakest player. No other team in that area needs to pick up a crappy player so the net result to the APA is the loss of that player.

I've been in this exact situation... and I've seen the rosters grow as a direct result of the cap.
I'm a 9 and we had three 6's and I was sitting out constantly.
I was sitting out as a 7 actually. I couldn't play without a 1 or 2 also playing.

We had a 2 but not reliable. So what did we do? We felt we had too many 6's and one of them
volunteered to spin off. He formed his own team. At least one of his teammates was a new player
that wasn't in the APA before. +1 to the APA.

Meanwhile, we struggled with our lineup still, the 2 became too essential. Low numbered players
are actually really valued in our league and people actively seek out those 2's and 3's. (a good thing imo).

If our 2 called out, I was stuck on the sidelines, and sometimes we couldn't fully use up our 23 skill points.
So we recruited one of the 6's girlfriends, and a female friend of our 3. Neither had played APA before.
+2 to the APA.

I believe the cap continues to bring in new players. I like it. Keeps the pool room active and the league fun.

lorider
09-14-2013, 12:53 PM
I'll bet he is.

just looked at the stats.

guess what ?

you lost the bet. he was raised. :wink:

Racing-Robbie
09-15-2013, 09:03 AM
For anyone that's played in Vegas you have to have at least one player that is under ranked. With that being said in June of this year I was a "3" went up to a "5" at our state tourney and moved up to a "6" in Vegas this year. 3 ranks in 2 months. Broke n ran 2 and racked and ran one playing a decent 7 still coming up short.

I mainly kept my rank down for tournaments and doubles events. People can say I bagged but I have a sl 3,4, and 5 100% certificates! Lol. I plan on trying to win every match as a 6 too. Only been playing 2 years.

Bagging is frowned upon but the 23 rule makes people do it. Who likes splitting teams up that have been together for ever?

jeffj2h
09-15-2013, 03:59 PM
I guess I'm naive. I thought sandbagging meant trying to win every match but padding your innings with a few missed shots to keep your SL down. Now I see there are "sleeper agents" out there playing crapy on purpose all season so they can make an impact during the playoffs?

Both are too masochistic for me.


With that said its easy to see what you expect to see. Last week I played my first APA 9B match, as a 6 (carryover from APA 8B). I played another 6 so it was a race to 46. I started on a roll, put in a break and run, and got up 32-9. Then I miscued on a combo, and over the next several games missed numerous plausible but not easy shots. My opponent got to 23. Then I ran my last 4 balls to win. My opponent said nothing but could have been thinking I'm a closet 7 or 8 and started sandbagging once I got out ahead. Actually I was worried I'd blow it and was trying hard to close out the match.

lorider
09-15-2013, 10:09 PM
i knew that 4 would be raised to a 5 this week after beating my 8 like he did. and sure enough he was.

but get this , my 8 was raised to a 9 also . i just gotta laugh about that .:grin-square:

i aint even gonna try to figure that one out. i kinda figured he would be raised sooner or later the way he has been playing, but after a loss? lol.

Icon of Sin
09-16-2013, 05:06 AM
i knew that 4 would be raised to a 5 this week after beating my 8 like he did. and sure enough he was.

but get this , my 8 was raised to a 9 also . i just gotta laugh about that .:grin-square:

i aint even gonna try to figure that one out. i kinda figured he would be raised sooner or later the way he has been playing, but after a loss? lol.

So the guy who was rated a 4 and crushed your 8 is now a 5 and still grossly underrated and your player also got raised in the process to a 9 after getting crushed.

Like I said in my first post in this thread, "you sure showed him."

Ken_4fun
09-16-2013, 05:40 AM
i knew that 4 would be raised to a 5 this week after beating my 8 like he did. and sure enough he was.

but get this , my 8 was raised to a 9 also . i just gotta laugh about that .:grin-square:

i aint even gonna try to figure that one out. i kinda figured he would be raised sooner or later the way he has been playing, but after a loss? lol.

Ive seen that before....never understood it.

Ken

lorider
09-16-2013, 06:47 AM
So the guy who was rated a 4 and crushed your 8 is now a 5 and still grossly underrated and your player also got raised in the process to a 9 after getting crushed.

Like I said in my first post in this thread, "you sure showed him."

well at least he is not as grossly underrrated as he was before. :grin-square:

i am not suprised my 8 was raised, but after a loss?

j_zippel
09-16-2013, 07:00 AM
So, just to make certain we're clear here, other than this post, and the first one in this thread, and what some of your other posts lead us to believe, you're not a complainer or a whiner?

hard to take anything you post serious with that avatar. Is the Object Ball in the fridge?

deanosdino
09-16-2013, 07:05 AM
I'm a 7/9, guess I should left my first year before I stopped learning anything. 5's get run over in any decent BCA division I've played in. Well, except of course when they play other 5-and-below players. It's closer to the truth to say that claims of sandbagging are common.

I agree that APA 5's tend to have a hard time in BCA. Many of the local players that start out in APA migrate to BCA over time. Not being able to learn anything may have been a bit too much, however I've seen many players flourish in BSA after a few rough sessions. Being a 7/9 you should realize that stronger completion molds stronger players. Playing APA gives me the opportunity to shoot pool one more night a week, plus I enjoy the team I am on. BCA masters league tends to have the strongest competition overall in my personal experience.

chefjeff
09-16-2013, 07:09 AM
i aint complaining i at all... i think its pretty damn funny the extreme people go to trying to work the system.

I never understood what's wrong with playing by the rules to one's advantage.

Jeff Livingston

CreeDo
09-16-2013, 07:17 AM
I never understood what's wrong with playing by the rules to one's advantage.

Jeff Livingston

haha, you crafty chefjeff. Nice try.
They didn't forget to explicitly forbid sandbagging in the rulebook.

From the APA Team Manual:

The second category is intentionally missed shots for the purpose of manipulating
one’s handicap, also referred to as sandbagging. Players of all levels of skill who
learn to recognize this unethical conduct can make it much more difficult for a
player to unfairly manipulate his handicap.
[...]
Please report sandbagging to your League Operator or Division Representative,
who in turn may contact other Team Captains to help determine the validity of
the complaint. All sandbagging complaints must be made in writing for
documentation purposes. This information will allow Local Management to
make an accurate determination as to whether a player is trying to hold his skill
level down. Teams or individuals guilty of conspiring to manipulate the system by
counting innings, coaching their players to miss shots or lose games, or
attempting any other dishonest practice as determined by Local League
Management, will be penalized. If a player does not wish to compete fairly in
our handicap League, his membership is in jeopardy.

Maniac
09-16-2013, 07:25 AM
Teams or individuals guilty of conspiring to manipulate the system by counting innings, coaching their players to miss shots or lose games, or attempting any other dishonest practice as determined by Local League Management, will be penalized. If a player does not wish to compete fairly in our handicap League, his membership is in jeopardy.
[/i]


How funny are these statements???

:rotflmao1::lmao::rotflmao1::lmao::lmao::rotflmao1 ::lmao::rotflmao1:

Maniac

chefjeff
09-16-2013, 07:41 AM
haha, you crafty chefjeff. Nice try.
They didn't forget to explicitly forbid sandbagging in the rulebook.

From the APA Team Manual:

The second category is intentionally missed shots for the purpose of manipulating
one’s handicap, also referred to as sandbagging. Players of all levels of skill who
learn to recognize this unethical conduct can make it much more difficult for a
player to unfairly manipulate his handicap.
[...]
Please report sandbagging to your League Operator or Division Representative,
who in turn may contact other Team Captains to help determine the validity of
the complaint. All sandbagging complaints must be made in writing for
documentation purposes. This information will allow Local Management to
make an accurate determination as to whether a player is trying to hold his skill
level down. Teams or individuals guilty of conspiring to manipulate the system by
counting innings, coaching their players to miss shots or lose games, or
attempting any other dishonest practice as determined by Local League
Management, will be penalized. If a player does not wish to compete fairly in
our handicap League, his membership is in jeopardy.


Lol....that contradiction certainly doesn't help. Which "rules" to follow, then, the sandbagging or the handicapping?

I asked the LO for the handicapping formula. She handed me the "rule" book. I looked up the formula and it said to ask the LO !! That's the day I quit that league.

Have at it, boys....the chronic sandbaggin in apa thingy, What fun! NOT.


Jeff Livingston

Ken_4fun
09-16-2013, 08:04 AM
Lol....that contradiction certainly doesn't help. Which "rules" to follow, then, the sandbagging or the handicapping?

I asked the LO for the handicapping formula. She handed me the "rule" book. I looked up the formula and it said to ask the LO !! That's the day I quit that league.

Have at it, boys....the chronic sandbaggin in apa thingy, What fun! NOT.


Jeff Livingston

At one time the "handicapping" formula was posted on the internet.

I have a copy of it somewhere but it has been taken down, the last time I tried to find it.

Ken

chefjeff
09-16-2013, 09:38 AM
At one time the "handicapping" formula was posted on the internet.

I have a copy of it somewhere but it has been taken down, the last time I tried to find it.

Ken


Yet, that formula is simply discarded when someone is accused (usually by the Person he just beat) of sandbagging and the apa's emotional/LO formula takes over. As was said to me, "Someone saw you at Fast Eddies shooting in a tournament last weekend and you're much better than a 4 so I raised you to a 6."

The best way to kill sandbagging is a real math formula that makes it moot or destructive to the sandbagger himself. I don't see how the APA (the best recruiters BY FAR in the business) needs a handicapping formula that is so bad it can't published in the open without causing more problems than it solves.

Jeff Livingston

TheNewSharkster
09-17-2013, 08:20 AM
piss him off !

there is a guy that is on the opposing team we played last night that i have known since bcapl days 8 years ago. he us only an apa 4. i been around pool enough to judge someones speed " at least be in the ball park ".

i threw my 8 and they throw him. well sure enough my 8 gets up 40-10 and i saw where that 4 was not making shots i knew he was capable of making.

he happens to come stand between our tables right next to me while he is waiting for his next turn.

i stand up next to him and say softly so no one else will hear, i have known you a long time and remember when you used to beat the hell outa me on the table. it must be embarrassing to have people in league that have not been in pool as long as you beat you week after week.

i said right now my 8 is up 40-10 on you . he aint just beating your ass , he is just downright embarrassing you.

he dont say nothing. he just looks at me as i sit back down. about that time its his turn to shoot..

well let me say .... the rest of the match went pretty quickly. the 4 scores 21 points to my 8's 17and wins 31-57. i thought that was pretty impressive but i have had a few come from behinds like that a time or 2. not against an 8 but a couple of 7's.

whats really impressive about the rest of this match is that it went 0 innings...... yea thats right...0 innings.

after i piss that 4 off about mentioning how lousy he was playing and being down 40-10 he scores 21 points to my 8's 17 in 0 innings.

within 15 minutes after the end of the match it was all over the pool hall. the lo came over and looked at the score sheet and said wow. looked at the 4 then back at the score sheet and said wow again before putting it down.

dont think that guy will be a 4 next week. :wink:



Let me get this straight.... do you have proof he was sandbagging?

lorider
09-17-2013, 07:56 PM
Let me get this straight.... do you have proof he was sandbagging?

let me clarify a few things.

1. i am not a person who cries sandbagger every time i lose or in this case my teamate loses to a lower handicap.

2. i am well aware " EVERY BODY " has good days and bad days. i am a prime example of that.

3. more than once on here i have said i dont see much evidence of sandbagging in my area.

as for proof ? let me tell you why this thread was started .

i 1st met player when i joined a bcapl team 8 years ago that he was on. he was a lot better player than i was back then. yea i have improved so=ince then, but so has he.

after playing with him for a year i quit pool for 3 years , he continued during those 3 years and moved to apa during that time when bcapl folded.

when i started back playing pool i joined apa and started playing against him and was suprised he was only a 4 while i rose up to a 5 rather quickly and was a 6 for 1 session before coming back down to a 5 for mainly disability issues i have incurred.

during the last 3 years i have faced him several times during league and also a few weekly non handicapped tournaments. i know what he is capable of.

the last time we faced him i overheard him tell a teamate he staya a 4 by running up innings and never beats a higher handicapped player than he is.

when we faced his team this time and it was obvious to me he was laying low i tiold him what i thought when he was standing close to me while my teamate was shooting.

remember he only made 10 points in 7 innings up to that point. when my teamate missed after i told him he was getting embarassed he went to the table and scored 21 straight points winning the match.

in my opinion it proved he was sandbagging, it may not be yours.

it definitly proved he is capable of playing at a higher level than he was showing in the 1st 7 innings of that match.

and as i stated in my last post in this thread, he did not stay a 4 after that match. i think that proves my point also.

CreeDo
09-18-2013, 09:55 AM
Lol....that contradiction certainly doesn't help. Which "rules" to follow, then, the sandbagging or the handicapping?

Where do you think you see a contradiction?
You have rules about playing (break behind the line, fouls = ball in hand, etc.) and you must follow them.
You have rules about sandbagging (don't do it or we kick you out) and you must follow them.

There's no "which" rules to follow. Play by the rules. All of them.
They're spelled out in black and white.

And if something isn't spelled out in black and white, people of good character
will try to play within the 'spirit' of the rules and fair competition.

People of poor character will try to find an interpretation that allows them
to effectively cheat and wreck the system.

Love2ShootPool
09-18-2013, 11:32 AM
Regardless, knowing the APA, he will remain a 4

chefjeff
09-18-2013, 12:11 PM
Where do you think you see a contradiction?
You have rules about playing (break behind the line, fouls = ball in hand, etc.) and you must follow them.
You have rules about sandbagging (don't do it or we kick you out) and you must follow them.

There's no "which" rules to follow. Play by the rules. All of them.
They're spelled out in black and white.

And if something isn't spelled out in black and white, people of good character
will try to play within the 'spirit' of the rules and fair competition.

People of poor character will try to find an interpretation that allows them
to effectively cheat and wreck the system.

Those are not spelled out anywhere that the LO led me to, as I posted.

But that's ok with me, as I don't play apa anymore because of that.

You all have fun and good luck,

Jeff Livingston

justadub
09-18-2013, 12:22 PM
Regardless, knowing the APA, he will remain a 4

Lorider already reported that he went up to a 5 the following week.....