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thebark
09-09-2013, 12:28 PM
I didn't want to have to start this thread. I wanted the governing body to act in judicious way, or at least in a way that would save them the embarrassment of abuse on a public forum, but their failure to act leads me to post here.

Here are the details. At the recent BCAPL 8Ball Championships held at the Rio many of my friends told me of a team that was playing with an unqualified player. Not an amazing story, it's been done before, but this time it was a League Operator's team (Jerry Stuckart Wednesday Inhouse at Stingers Glendale Az). Jerry was using a player that had never played once, according to all I talked to, and was therefore ineligible for team completion. The Stuckart team had even beaten another of his inhouse teams. Needless to say people were hot. I did not play team so I felt I would be the one to let BCAPL know what was going on.

I told Bill Stock the situation.Stuckart had an unqualified player on his team by the name of John. Everyone from the inhouse league said he had never played one week. There was another player named John who had subbed enough weeks to qualify but this was absolutely a different person. I therefore suggested that the league records had been forged to show that Stuckart's John had enough weeks. I told Bill that it was a serious violation especially coming from a league operator and I hoped the BCAPL would look into it. Bill told me it would take awhile to look into because they had to look into the computer records.

I patiently waited for the ruling knowing I would see Stock and Griffin at the Southwest Regional in Phoenix over Labor Day. To me this was a very serious offense for a League Operator. Through intermediaries it was expressed To the BCAPL Senior Staff how outraged the BCA players and other league operators of Metro Phoenix were. A just ruling was needed if they didn't want this brought out for public discussion. A minimum of one year suspension of league operations (even if he was still behind the scenes) seemed fair.

Then over Labor Day there was Jerry playing in the advanced/masters singles. His punishment I heard was that he couldn't personally play teams for 1 year and was on probation for anywhere from 1 to 3 years. This for a person in a position of trust and integrity just a slap on the wrist. The BCAPL really failed all their players and league operators of Arizona. Could it be that he got off so easily because he is going to take over the Southwest Regional with Dr. Pool next year? ettu brute TresKane

ideologist
09-09-2013, 12:35 PM
That's pretty lame if that is all that happened. That's the kind of move that should get an LO banned for life, since they sign agreements to uphold league rules.

Also, I'll be following this thread:
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/179341/mj-thriller-popcorn-o.gif

Eric.
09-09-2013, 12:39 PM
http://forums.azbilliards.com/member.php?u=27587


Eric >pass the popcorn

pt109
09-09-2013, 12:45 PM
I would think that 1 year banishment from team play is more than a slap
on the wrist....and up to 3 years probation.

capital punishment is frowned on in many States

Cdryden
09-09-2013, 12:59 PM
There will be blood? Lol, sounds a bit over dramatic, but I guess I've heard and seen worse. Good luck resolving it fairly.

StraightPoolIU
09-09-2013, 01:35 PM
I drink your milkshake!

CreeDo
09-09-2013, 02:07 PM
Sounds like he broke the rules, got caught, got punished.
Suspending him as an LO (rather than as a player) means a bunch of teams suddenly have nobody to
run their league, right? If so I can see why they didn't boot him... those teams don't want to be told
"Sorry, no league this year, maybe next year".

But I agree having a dishonest LO is no good either... if he's willing to cheat to win a tournament,
maybe he's willing to be sleazy in other ways like steal dues or permit cheating in his league.

Did he ever explain why he felt compelled to blatantly break the rules?
If he's on the forums you should edit your title by putting in his name, so he has a chance to
notice it and explain what he was thinking.

Nullus
09-09-2013, 02:33 PM
IF it's all true, it's just another glaring example of how and why most of the amateur leagues are businesses and when push comes to shove, the amateurs lose out to 'business' decisions. It's the same reason most of them look the other way when it comes to sandbagging, or won't alter their rules. As long as they're making money, they don't want to hear about it. Sad.

(As a side note, maybe they'd be better off without a league operator and a league if that's what they have to look forward to. Maybe they can get a different league in there and give it a try?.)

Bill S
09-09-2013, 02:47 PM
I didn't want to have to start this thread. I wanted the governing body to act in judicious way, or at least in a way that would save them the embarrassment of abuse on a public forum, but their failure to act leads me to post here.

Here are the details. At the recent BCAPL 8Ball Championships held at the Rio many of my friends told me of a team that was playing with an unqualified player. Not an amazing story, it's been done before, but this time it was a League Operator's team (Jerry Stuckart Wednesday Inhouse at Stingers Glendale Az). Jerry was using a player that had never played once, according to all I talked to, and was therefore ineligible for team completion. The Stuckart team had even beaten another of his inhouse teams. Needless to say people were hot. I did not play team so I felt I would be the one to let BCAPL know what was going on.

I told Bill Stock the situation.Stuckart had an unqualified player on his team by the name of John. Everyone from the inhouse league said he had never played one week. There was another player named John who had subbed enough weeks to qualify but this was absolutely a different person. I therefore suggested that the league records had been forged to show that Stuckart's John had enough weeks. I told Bill that it was a serious violation especially coming from a league operator and I hoped the BCAPL would look into it. Bill told me it would take awhile to look into because they had to look into the computer records.

I patiently waited for the ruling knowing I would see Stock and Griffin at the Southwest Regional in Phoenix over Labor Day. To me this was a very serious offense for a League Operator. Through intermediaries it was expressed To the BCAPL Senior Staff how outraged the BCA players and other league operators of Metro Phoenix were. A just ruling was needed if they didn't want this brought out for public discussion. A minimum of one year suspension of league operations (even if he was still behind the scenes) seemed fair.

Then over Labor Day there was Jerry playing in the advanced/masters singles. His punishment I heard was that he couldn't personally play teams for 1 year and was on probation for anywhere from 1 to 3 years. This for a person in a position of trust and integrity just a slap on the wrist. The BCAPL really failed all their players and league operators of Arizona. Could it be that he got off so easily because he is going to take over the Southwest Regional with Dr. Pool next year? ettu brute TresKane

Just so you know, we have been discussing what the punishment will be over the last week. It has been decided and the certified letters are being prepared to mail out tomorrow morning.

Also, you don't know all of the facts and you are on here saying what the punishment is going to be and we just decided that so I don't know where you get your information from.

Shame on you Tres! I know that you and others are generally against Jerry to begin with.

Lost a little respect for you buddy!

Bill Stock

infest
09-09-2013, 02:58 PM
Also, you don't know all of the facts and you are on here saying what the punishment is going to be and we just decided that so I don't know where you get your information from.

Please. Inform us.

hang-the-9
09-09-2013, 03:22 PM
Once word gets out that someone is shady with his dealings, the reputation loss is enough to make most official punishment light by comparison.

I know many pool players that don't play in a few tours in the area due to the people running them having reputations for pulling stunts on the players and known players being handicapped unfairly. Once you get a reputation, you start to lose things, business, friends, fingers (in some dealings hehe).

FASTEDDIE427
09-09-2013, 03:30 PM
Kjlshgn,xnfgblksndlgknsdlbnskndflkns,dkbgv,jfhbv

Mickey Qualls
09-09-2013, 04:00 PM
This thread reeks of C.Carl McConnell.

Here's a half dozen of his infamous threads. Take your pick...

http://forums.azbilliards.com/search.php?searchid=11488088

Mickey <---

http://i.imgur.com/7eurW.gif

Mickey Qualls
09-09-2013, 04:03 PM
https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/4076273408/h7288FBB6/

Bill S
09-09-2013, 04:40 PM
Please. Inform us.

All league operators in Arizona will be informed via email tomorrow.

We don't feel it is proper to air our business in a public forum.

Bill Stock

FASTEDDIE427
09-09-2013, 05:07 PM
I agree it might not be proper. Why did such a light sentence get handed down. It took a thread on here for things to be handled


All league operators in Arizona will be informed via email tomorrow.

We don't feel it is proper to air our business in a public forum.

Bill Stock

Roger Long
09-09-2013, 05:17 PM
Just so you know, we have been discussing what the punishment will be over the last week. It has been decided and the certified letters are being prepared to mail out tomorrow morning.

Also, you don't know all of the facts and you are on here saying what the punishment is going to be and we just decided that so I don't know where you get your information from.

Shame on you Tres! I know that you and others are generally against Jerry to begin with.

Lost a little respect for you buddy!

Bill Stock

Bill,

I don't doubt for a minute that what Tres Kane has claimed about Jerry Stuckart here is true, as my team had a very similar experience with Jerry about three years ago when we played in his league. After my team mates and I confronted Jerry with the fact that he was using an ineligible player on his team in a playoff match against us, he went and altered his online records to reflect that the new player was one of his regular players. My team lost that argument and, consequently, the match, and then Jerry went bragging about his great victory over us. After that, we quit his league and vowed to never play in another league run by him.

While you may have lost a little respect for Tres, I just found a lot of new respect for him. He had the courage to come on here - state his complaint - and then sign his full name to it. My only guess as to why others haven't outed Jerry Stuckart before this is that they must be afraid of losing the league. It is a well-designed league with a lot of good players in it, but it is being run by the wrong person. And while Tres may have jumped to conclusions concerning the punishment Jerry is to receive, he jumped to no such conclusions in his assessment of Jerry's character. He was right on with that.

Roger Long

lorider
09-09-2013, 07:37 PM
All league operators in Arizona will be informed via email tomorrow.

We don't feel it is proper to air our business in a public forum.

Bill Stock

i agree with your stance on this incident whole heartedly.

it just amazes me when shit hits the fan concerning bcapl the majority of league bashers on here are pretty quiet. the one who do post on here regarding an incident with bcapl are pretty civil

i recall the thread about last years apa 9 ball team being dq'ed. the league basherers were out in droves bashing the apa for not coming on here and disclosing how they handled the situation. seems like most posters thought the apa was hiding the situation because they did not blast it across every form of major media across the entire nation.

they handled it much like you are doing but was bashed on here repeatedly because of it.

guess its just an apa thang. :confused:

Stones
09-09-2013, 08:47 PM
A few years ago, there was a incident which I and others witnessed at the Texas State BCAPL Championships.

A few days after the incident, I was contacted by Bill Stock for my opinion on what happened. After a lengthy conversation, Bill asked me to document the details and forward them to him by email.

Bill inteviewed many people to get their opinions as to what actually happened. As a former tour director myself, my point is that it takes a lot of time and effort to gather as much information as possible before making a proper ruling for disiplinary action.

As far as outing this in a public forum, it is a BCAPL private matter and will be dealt with only by the BCAPL no matter what is said on this forum.

In my opinion, Bill is a fair minded and just man. Let him have the time to do his job.

As far as fairness of the BCAPL's ruling on this matter, some folks won't be happy unless there is a lynching. LOL



Stones

Mr Phil
09-09-2013, 09:10 PM
Don't feel it's proper to air business in a public forum? If someone who is not only a league operator, but also the President of the Arizona Ratings committee is doing anything improper I think they players have the right to know, so far this sounds like a cover up.

DR Pool
09-09-2013, 09:11 PM
I will set the record straight on one thing. DR Pool Promotions, Inc. will be directing the 2014 BCAPL Southwest Regional next year.It will be Labor Day weekend as it always is. I will pick a team to assist me. We will also have a uniformed referee in the player's area. I have been at the Southwest Regional every year. Why would I fly all the way from WI to be there? Simple, it is my venue and I sign the contract. Many of the recent changes have come from my camp, and have been discussed with the BCAPL. There will hopefully be more improvements next year.

Have at it with the rest. I have more important things to attend to.

Dean Roeseler
DR Pool

Bavafongoul
09-09-2013, 09:56 PM
Not quite yet.............................What about the chronic cheating by a League Operator and his League Team......OMG................Come on.......................You can't bury the corpse this time.

Now there are two identical incidents of cheating, in different years, by the same person................yes, he's a chronic cheat and needs to be expelled from all league play and suspended as the League Operator. Why as the operator? Because of his willful, intentional failure to operate the league with the spirit of fair competition, total disregard for the By-Laws and his specified duties as League Operator and lastly, the complete loss of all trust in his integrity because of a pattern of chronic cheating.

Not airing all of this public more than smells like a cover-up since the there's a proven history of cheating, at both the team and League Operator levels, that's not being acknowledged. This is not the first time he's done this and basically he's stealing money from other teams in the league. How can anyone trust him or the Franchisor after this unless there's hell to pay. To not come down absolutely hard on this becomes a self-servicing decision, i.e,. don't do anything to impede current & future revenue. It sounds like some closed door, secret session rendered this decision which is an insult to everyone intelligence or sense of fair play. This is a monetarily motivated decision which is pretty obvious.

ingins
09-09-2013, 10:02 PM
What was the other incident?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk 4

JasonCrugar
09-09-2013, 11:18 PM
What was the other incident?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk 4

Shit is about to get good now. :)

ingins
09-09-2013, 11:19 PM
The other incident was what happened to roger longs team

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk 4

AzHousePro
09-10-2013, 12:00 AM
The other incident could be any number of things.

It could be the time a couple seasons ago when Jerry was either tied or one game back in the race for most wins during the league season. His team had to play a play-off match because they were tied with another team at the end of the season. His games in the playoff match were added to his total number of wins and he took 1st in games won.

Or it could be the reported instance where he was in Vegas and one of his team members had to go home early. Jerry reportedly sent John Smith (one of the top 3 bar box players in Az) in to say he was the player that had to go home early.


And to shed a little more light on the situation that Tres is describing here, the player who actually played the weeks of league (John W.) is a 6 rated player in Az's ratings system. The player who played for Jerry's team? That would be John P., who is a 9 rated player and just won a big bar box event out here 2-3 months ago.

Other players who played in the league in question spoke up while watching Jerry's team in Vegas and asked who John P. was, as they claimed they had never seen him play on league night.

Dr. Pool's comment in this thread is about the SW Regional Championship that took place out here a little over a week ago. Before the event was over, players were being told that the event was going to be ran next year by Dr Pool, Jerry and a friend of Jerry's. I spoke to Mark G. and Dean about this claim and Mark confirmed that he was handing the event off to Dr. Pool to run in the future. Dean made sure to make it clear to me that it was him that was running it, and not Jerry or his friend. Yet, Jerry was posting on Facebook later that night how there were a lot of changes that "we" are working on for next year. So if Dean's team is not set for next year yet, he should probably inform Jerry.

On a personal note, I played a season together with Jerry on a team a few years back and none of this stuff was going on back then. In the past couple of years though, Jerry seems to have developed a reputation as someone who will bend the rules if it is for his own advantage. As he has taken on more of a role in the local pool scene (league operator, tournament director, president of the ratings committee), his reputation for shenanigans has grown.

A large number of Az players have approached me at recent tourneys here in town and said they are tired of the games that are being played, but they are afraid to come forward on their own. Kudos to Tres for putting himself out there and making his feelings known.

Mike

Bill S
09-10-2013, 08:57 AM
The other incident could be any number of things.

It could be the time a couple seasons ago when Jerry was either tied or one game back in the race for most wins during the league season. His team had to play a play-off match because they were tied with another team at the end of the season. His games in the playoff match were added to his total number of wins and he took 1st in games won.

Or it could be the reported instance where he was in Vegas and one of his team members had to go home early. Jerry reportedly sent John Smith (one of the top 3 bar box players in Az) in to say he was the player that had to go home early.


And to shed a little more light on the situation that Tres is describing here, the player who actually played the weeks of league (John W.) is a 6 rated player in Az's ratings system. The player who played for Jerry's team? That would be John P., who is a 9 rated player and just won a big bar box event out here 2-3 months ago.

Other players who played in the league in question spoke up while watching Jerry's team in Vegas and asked who John P. was, as they claimed they had never seen him play on league night.

Dr. Pool's comment in this thread is about the SW Regional Championship that took place out here a little over a week ago. Before the event was over, players were being told that the event was going to be ran next year by Dr Pool, Jerry and a friend of Jerry's. I spoke to Mark G. and Dean about this claim and Mark confirmed that he was handing the event off to Dr. Pool to run in the future. Dean made sure to make it clear to me that it was him that was running it, and not Jerry or his friend. Yet, Jerry was posting on Facebook later that night how there were a lot of changes that "we" are working on for next year. So if Dean's team is not set for next year yet, he should probably inform Jerry.

On a personal note, I played a season together with Jerry on a team a few years back and none of this stuff was going on back then. In the past couple of years though, Jerry seems to have developed a reputation as someone who will bend the rules if it is for his own advantage. As he has taken on more of a role in the local pool scene (league operator, tournament director, president of the ratings committee), his reputation for shenanigans has grown.

A large number of Az players have approached me at recent tourneys here in town and said they are tired of the games that are being played, but they are afraid to come forward on their own. Kudos to Tres for putting himself out there and making his feelings known.

Mike

The punishments have been decided and the letters have gone out.

League Operators will be notified via email today.

Go ahead and torch me if you like. I don't really care.

This is my last post on this subject.

Bill Stock

cleary
09-10-2013, 09:05 AM
THERE WILL BE BLOOOOOOOOOOD! lol settle down, it's pool league.

upindaklub
09-10-2013, 09:22 AM
The punishments have been decided and the letters have gone out.

League Operators will be notified via email today.

Go ahead and torch me if you like. I don't really care.

This is my last post on this subject.

Bill Stock

Who polices the police?

Cdryden
09-10-2013, 09:29 AM
Who polices the police?

The public forum! Checks and balances in action.

Eric.
09-10-2013, 09:40 AM
The punishments have been decided and the letters have gone out.

League Operators will be notified via email today.

Go ahead and torch me if you like. I don't really care.

This is my last post on this subject.

Bill Stock

Bill,

I have no dog in this fight, but since it is here for public comment...

I dont feel anyone is "torching" you or the BCAPL. If anything, it's customer feedback about an on going problem. While I can understand this can be a powderkeg situation, with a lot of emotional reactions on both sides, in the end, I think it was a good thing that this issue was brought to light and dealt with.

On that note, I sounds like you did the right thing.


Eric

tucson9ball
09-10-2013, 09:52 AM
This is hitting pretty close to home. I'm glad I play a couple hours south of this whole mess.

I've known Tres for over 10 years now, He has my complete respect as a person who will play strictly by the rules. His reputation as a player/person has never been in question. I doubt he would come forward if things were handled better. I wasn't aware of any of this during the BCAPL at the Rio.

I hope this does not affect any players in that league who were not on that team?

As the league operator, I would think there should be a standard to be accountable for? Maybe it's time to change league operators? Hand the reigns over to somebody else?

As mentioned earlier, Jerry has his hands on almost everything that happens in the pool world of the state of Arizona. So....it will be an interesting month or so in Arizona.

Donny Lutz
09-10-2013, 10:06 AM
I didn't want to have to start this thread. I wanted the governing body to act in judicious way, or at least in a way that would save them the embarrassment of abuse on a public forum, but their failure to act leads me to post here.

Here are the details. At the recent BCAPL 8Ball Championships held at the Rio many of my friends told me of a team that was playing with an unqualified player. Not an amazing story, it's been done before, but this time it was a League Operator's team (Jerry Stuckart Wednesday Inhouse at Stingers Glendale Az). Jerry was using a player that had never played once, according to all I talked to, and was therefore ineligible for team completion. The Stuckart team had even beaten another of his inhouse teams. Needless to say people were hot. I did not play team so I felt I would be the one to let BCAPL know what was going on.

I told Bill Stock the situation.Stuckart had an unqualified player on his team by the name of John. Everyone from the inhouse league said he had never played one week. There was another player named John who had subbed enough weeks to qualify but this was absolutely a different person. I therefore suggested that the league records had been forged to show that Stuckart's John had enough weeks. I told Bill that it was a serious violation especially coming from a league operator and I hoped the BCAPL would look into it. Bill told me it would take awhile to look into because they had to look into the computer records.

I patiently waited for the ruling knowing I would see Stock and Griffin at the Southwest Regional in Phoenix over Labor Day. To me this was a very serious offense for a League Operator. Through intermediaries it was expressed To the BCAPL Senior Staff how outraged the BCA players and other league operators of Metro Phoenix were. A just ruling was needed if they didn't want this brought out for public discussion. A minimum of one year suspension of league operations (even if he was still behind the scenes) seemed fair.

Then over Labor Day there was Jerry playing in the advanced/masters singles. His punishment I heard was that he couldn't personally play teams for 1 year and was on probation for anywhere from 1 to 3 years. This for a person in a position of trust and integrity just a slap on the wrist. The BCAPL really failed all their players and league operators of Arizona. Could it be that he got off so easily because he is going to take over the Southwest Regional with Dr. Pool next year? ettu brute TresKane

I've both heard of and seen instances where league directors arbitrarily change averages and play-off schedules to favor particular teams.

I have resisted naming names and the league system for fear of recrimination.

thebark
09-10-2013, 11:01 AM
Bill, it wasn't my intention to torch either you or the BCAPL. I am a fervent backer of the great things you guys have done for pool players. My decision to post here was made after consultation with some very level headed people in our area. I awaited patiently and silently for six weeks for a decision. But when the Southwest regional came and went I still hadn't heard a thing. I brought it to your attention and felt you could have at least told me personally that you were still working on. Others have told me that they had asked for updates but nothing was forthcoming.

It was only then I decided to go to a public forum. Time has a way of muting the indignation we originally feel. I wanted to express my feelings before I just didn't care enough to see the matter through to a just conclusion. I am sure we are both guilty of mistakes and am deeply sorry for the strain in our friendship. When you play poker you don't always know the other guys hand. Its not personal Sonny, its only business. Tres Kane

dundeewizard
09-10-2013, 11:16 AM
Sounds like Bill and Jerry have something of a golden handshake going on. That sucks but has made my decsion easy. Joining the APA session for Thursday nights :)

pool4u
09-10-2013, 11:33 AM
Sounds like Bill and Jerry have something of a golden handshake going on. That sucks but has made my decsion easy. Joining the APA session for Thursday nights :)

Because nothing underhanded EVER happens in APA. :rotflmao1: :outtahere:

Fast Lenny
09-10-2013, 12:47 PM
I have to say if Tres says something I trust and believe the guy 100%. He is one of the most upstanding people I have met in the Arizona pool community and a great supporter of pool.

Mark Griffin
09-10-2013, 01:09 PM
To Dundee Wizard:

I will absolutely guarantee that there is no 'golden handshake' between any of our staff and any league operator. I should take that as a swipe towards my staff - but I think I will write it off as a stupid remark.

If that is the basis of your decision - good luck. Hope you use better rationale in getting through life.

I think everyone is over reacting a little bit on the time frames. It took us a full 3-4 weeks to decompress from the Rio event - and this toipic wasn't really discussed much because we knew we would be in Arizone for the SW Regional. So, yes it took 6weeks but could not be done any faster! We were in Arizona determining the facts. We got back to the office on Tuesday Sept 3rd. We waited for Ric Jones of Bad Boys to get to the office on Wednesday and we all talked it out. Made preliminary decision on Thursday and reviewed them on Friday.

Bill was writing them up on Monday - when Tres posted on AZ Billiards. (I have no problem with Tres or anyone else posting their thoughts). We have completed the decisions and have sent out the mailings to affected parties. This is not the place to discuss our solution

And anyone that 'thinks' we are in cahoots with Jerry or anyone else can kiss my A**! We have over 500 League Operators and there will be glitches. They take time to sort out. To call us corrupt is a whole 'nother' story! (And WAY out of line)

At least we take the time to try to do it right. And we dont dodge the questions. As always, you wanna talk - call me at 702-719-7665.

BTW - I have no knowledge of the 'other' things people are discussing about Jerry. Sounds to me like Arizona has some issues. We can not address something that is completely outside our scope of responsibility. We have NO input who is on their 'ratings committee'. Some comments were made about an 'on going' problem. This is a one time problem to us since we had no knowledge about any other situations. Talk is cheap - we need facts and things must be presented within a reasonable length of time. You guys that think you have some facts - get them to us; don't hide behind a keyboard.

Remember - it you aren't part of the solution, than you might be part of the problem.

Mark Griffin


Sounds like Bill and Jerry have something of a golden handshake going on. That sucks but has made my decsion easy. Joining the APA session for Thursday nights :)

Banks
09-10-2013, 01:13 PM
To translate Mark's post:

"Them's fightin words!"

:thumbup:

Eric.
09-10-2013, 01:23 PM
Some comments were made about an 'on going' problem. This is a one time problem to us since we had no knowledge about any other situations. Talk is cheap - we need facts and things must be presented within a reasonable length of time. You guys that think you have some facts - get them to us; don't hide behind a keyboard.

Mark Griffin

Mark,

I think Mike Howerton/AZhousepro gave some specific examples. I'm sure you guys have his contact info and vice versa.

FWIW, I feel the BCAPL is doing the right thing. Every league is gonna have issues. It's the leagues that fully address them, that are to be commended.


Eric

lorider
09-10-2013, 02:27 PM
All league operators in Arizona will be informed via email tomorrow.

We don't feel it is proper to air our business in a public forum.

Bill Stock

mr stock.... with all due respect i would like to point out to you one of your previous posts.

back on 3/28/13 you chimed in on the " apa 9 ball team dq'ed " thread.

and i quote ..... we banned 2 players from the dq'ed apa team from bcapl for 3 years.

is that not airing your business in public ?

TimKrazyMon
09-10-2013, 02:58 PM
To Dundee Wizard:

I will absolutely guarantee that there is no 'golden handshake' between any of our staff and any league operator. I should take that as a swipe towards my staff - but I think I will write it off as a stupid remark.

If that is the basis of your decision - good luck. Hope you use better rationale in getting through life.

I think everyone is over reacting a little bit on the time frames. It took us a full 3-4 weeks to decompress from the Rio event - and this toipic wasn't really discussed much because we knew we would be in Arizone for the SW Regional. So, yes it took 6weeks but could not be done any faster! We were in Arizona determining the facts. We got back to the office on Tuesday Sept 3rd. We waited for Ric Jones of Bad Boys to get to the office on Wednesday and we all talked it out. Made preliminary decision on Thursday and reviewed them on Friday.

Bill was writing them up on Monday - when Tres posted on AZ Billiards. (I have no problem with Tres or anyone else posting their thoughts). We have completed the decisions and have sent out the mailings to affected parties. This is not the place to discuss our solution

And anyone that 'thinks' we are in cahoots with Jerry or anyone else can kiss my A**! We have over 500 League Operators and there will be glitches. They take time to sort out. To call us corrupt is a whole 'nother' story! (And WAY out of line)

At least we take the time to try to do it right. And we dont dodge the questions. As always, you wanna talk - call me at 702-719-7665.

BTW - I have no knowledge of the 'other' things people are discussing about Jerry. Sounds to me like Arizona has some issues. We can not address something that is completely outside our scope of responsibility. We have NO input who is on their 'ratings committee'. Some comments were made about an 'on going' problem. This is a one time problem to us since we had no knowledge about any other situations. Talk is cheap - we need facts and things must be presented within a reasonable length of time. You guys that think you have some facts - get them to us; don't hide behind a keyboard.

Remember - it you aren't part of the solution, than you might be part of the problem.

Mark Griffin

.......................

FASTEDDIE427
09-10-2013, 03:08 PM
Buuurrrrnnnnnnnn



mr stock.... With all due respect i would like to point out to you one of your previous posts.

Back on 3/28/13 you chimed in on the " apa 9 ball team dq'ed " thread.

And i quote ..... We banned 2 players from the dq'ed apa team from bcapl for 3 years.

Is that not airing your business in public ?

Mark Griffin
09-10-2013, 03:46 PM
I am going to answer this one; because there have been some inaccurate statements made, I will try to point out some of the differences.

The player that was used in the nationals was a BCAPL member - he just did not have enough weeks to be fully qualified. He needed 8 weeks and he was a couple of weeks short. Just an FYI, we can and do waive players who are short on weeks if there is a legitimate reason - and it is done on a case by case method.

The players in the APA situation falsely represented themselves as being another player. that is a completely different set of facts. Those players admitted impersonating other players. That is far more blatant and pretty 'cut - n -dried'.

I do not consider barring them as 'airing your business in public'. We don't accept players that blatantly cheat. The facts in this situation do not equate to the APA player's set of facts. Our letter of disciplinary action was sent to the League Operator and the offending players. Out of respect, we also sent the letter to other League Operators in the immediate area.

I know you must be having fun trying to 'paint us all with the same brush' - but please don't try to compare apples to oranges.

Respectfully,

Mark Griffin




mr stock.... with all due respect i would like to point out to you one of your previous posts.

back on 3/28/13 you chimed in on the " apa 9 ball team dq'ed " thread.

and i quote ..... we banned 2 players from the dq'ed apa team from bcapl for 3 years.

is that not airing your business in public ?

ingins
09-10-2013, 03:52 PM
Mark that isnt true john p never sub in our league at all period

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk 4

ingins
09-10-2013, 03:53 PM
Ask john p yourself his number was provided to you by a number of people

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tryin2playagain
09-10-2013, 04:04 PM
I think one of the larger issues to being overlooked. He cheated plain and simple. He and everyone else knows it. The worst part is as a league director he changed all the league stats to try and support his bs story. Bca rules state all players must come from the same league! The player in question NEVER played 1 week and yet still shows 14 wks of play.


http://www.azpoolscene.com/ChampionsLeague/Archive/WednesdayStandings0113.aspx

Truly it makes no difference whether he is a bca member or not, whether he was short a few weeks or not because zero weeks came from jerrys league.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2

Celtic
09-10-2013, 04:05 PM
As far as whose "business" this is I would say that anyone who is a BCAPL member, who pays upwards of hundreds of dollars per a year in league dues, and who commits a lot of their personal time and money into the league has a right to expect a fair playing field and has the right to know that the rules are being followed by all of the teams who might affect their own results.

Team Taiwan from the BCAPL Open was not exactly given a nice private judgement, their supposed crimes were front and center and the judgement of action against them was made public in an official statement. That set a precedent, and now for people on this forum who are in fact invested in the BCAPL to expect some answers is entirely within reason.

Mark Griffin
09-10-2013, 04:21 PM
Bill is out of the office until tomorrow. I did not personally talk to the players. Bill talked to all the parties and I believe your statement is not correct.

If you have facts then I suggest you get them to Bill and me. Responding to an unknown poster on AZ is probably not the best way to determine what actually occurred.

I am not interested in arguing with anyone. We talked to a lot of people - and much of what was being said was not factual. If there are new facts then present them to us.

Not interested in things that happened ' a few years ago' since they cannot be verified. Just talking about the situation at hand.

Mark Griffin
702-719-7665



Mark that isnt true john p never sub in our league at all period

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poolgod1969
09-10-2013, 04:25 PM
Well I would say for sure it is business of mine to find out this information of the ineligible, cheating team. It is also the business of my teammates who subsequently were knocked out of the Nationals in a money determining round by this team.

Our team wanted to add a second Advanced player to our team, but followed the rules stating that we could only have one.

Honest league players follow the rules. We expect the governing body to look at all statistics thoroughly when they receive an entry. It is probably only fair that since there was a deliberate violation of the rules by a team, that our team, as well as any others that were eliminated by the cheating team, should have their entry fee refunded.

I also would like to point out that the governing body should have an apologetic tone, instead of a defensive one.

Mark Griffin
09-10-2013, 04:36 PM
I really feel that the Taiwan tema was a very different situation with a lot of different issues. If we were to try and resolve all of our issues in the public forums, we would never get anything completed.

Sorry - I just disagree with you.

Everytime that we discipline a player or a LO - should that be a press release? I dont think so. Again, the Taiwan issue was very different.

Respectfully,

Mark Griffin


As far as whose "business" this is I would say that anyone who is a BCAPL member, who pays upwards of hundreds of dollars per a year in league dues, and who commits a lot of their personal time and money into the league has a right to expect a fair playing field and has the right to know that the rules are being followed by all of the teams who might affect their own results.

Team Taiwan from the BCAPL Open was not exactly given a nice private judgement, their supposed crimes were front and center and the judgement of action against them was made public in an official statement. That set a precedent, and now for people on this forum who are in fact invested in the BCAPL to expect some answers is entirely within reason.

Ken_4fun
09-10-2013, 04:43 PM
I am going to answer this one; because there have been some inaccurate statements made, I will try to point out some of the differences.

The player that was used in the nationals was a BCAPL member - he just did not have enough weeks to be fully qualified. He needed 8 weeks and he was a couple of weeks short. Just an FYI, we can and do waive players who are short on weeks if there is a legitimate reason - and it is done on a case by case method.

Respectfully,

Mark Griffin

Mark -

Why set yourself up for bias?...I think that is part of the problem.

Folks don't have issues with rules, if EVERYBODY has to follow them.

Set hard and fast rules. Ensure that they are followed....case by case "stuff" is BS.

Ken

Fast Lenny
09-10-2013, 06:55 PM
Here is Jerry Stuckarts response to this all. http://mypoolscene.com/BreakingNews/tabid/146/EntryId/180/To-the-Arizona-Pool-Community.aspx

To the Arizona Pool Community:

I wanted to send this press release out in response to many allegation rumors that have been swirling around the state the past few weeks. I thought it was best to wait until the BCAPL had had enough time to gather any information they needed before responding. Below you will see responses to many of the ridiculous allegations that were made by members of a competing pool room/league to the league I have created. I will also inform you all of my decision to step down as co-chair of the Arizona Rating Committee and the conversations between Bill Vanderweyst and I the past few weeks. I will not be responding to any further rhetoric on any of the social media sites.

I stepped up to become the chairman of the rating committee earlier this year to help right the ship on many of the issues that have plagued the rating system for a number of years. I honestly believe that we, as a committee, have made many strides in the right direction. It is far from perfect, but many issues have been addressed and I wish the committee luck and support as they move on without me. In a letter I wrote to Bill V. this past weekend, I noted that my plate is just too full to give the committee the attention it needs. I have a full time and part time job on top of being a single dad to two elementary school aged kids, coaching soccer, cub scouts, running the pool league and promoting pool tournaments and synergy between rooms and their tournament scheduling. I have removed myself from the committee effective immediately and have already transferred over all the files to Bill earlier this week.

Next, let’s give a little background to the one-way pool politics that have stemmed from the Bullshooter’s Camp, which is not limited to Tres Kane (who lives there, has his own table, runs tournaments, etc.), Roger Long (who owns the pool repair shop inside Bullshooter’s, cleans the tables, gives lessons, etc.), Larry Eans (who runs the AZ Hot Shots League and moved his headquarters to Bullshooter’s after his bar the Northern Lounge closed), the Owner and his ongoing spat with the Owner of Stinger’s Bar, Mike Howerton (runs azbilliards.com, local newspaper that competes with AZPoolScene, longtime Bullshooter’s and Hot shots supporter), etc. etc.

Roger Long has made some pretty outlandish comments about me personally and has continued to make up and lie about a situation from 2009 (4 years ago). In my league system, every single session, the first night of play a packet of rules is handed out to the captains of each team. In these rules it states on how subs can be used any week of the season until the final 4 weeks of play. On those final 4 weeks, you are not allowed to bring in any new players to the league. You can use anyone that has already played for the league this session, regardless of which team they subbed for. On the last night of play, position night, my team was set to play his team to decide between 2nd and 3rd place. One of our players was off playing in a pro tournament that she had qualified for so we needed a sub. Steve Blackburn had been identified as having played 9 weeks in the league in an 18 week session. Steve is the same rating as the person he was replacing, which has no effect in this handicapped system. In Leaguesys, once a player has played on a team the first time, it shows all of their statistics for the season under every team they played on. He finished with 10 weeks of play, but only played 1 on my team. My team won the match 13-10 to secure 2nd place. Earlier in the day Roger’s team had posted friendly banter on social media about the match and we had friendly smack talk back. After the win, there was a follow up social media post about the victory. Roger’s team protested the match and continues to say that I somehow changed online records. Steve did play in the league; the rules have never been posted online and only existed in hard copy and were handed out before the league. There was no illegal player on any team, the league agreed and the ruling made. He has continued to slam me and my league for 4 years because of his bitterness in the situation. This is the same Roger Long that petitioned the rating committee years ago to be raised to a 10 rated player, with the only supporting evidence being that as a 10 he would have more credibility to give pool lessons, aka benefit financially. He also illegally copied the entire Arizona Rating List of players and created a website that was unauthorized by the Committee that listed these players, but with one difference. Roger took it solely on himself to adjust players up and down on a daily/weekly basis depending on how he thought they were playing that week. He is currently not on the Arizona Ratings Sheet because he petitioned for the committee to remove him and wouldn’t be supporting Arizona Rated handicap tournaments in the State.

Larry Eans is the owner of the AZ Hot Shots league. We are direct competitors in the same area where many players call home. His league could benefit greatly and Bullshooters beneficially if my league would not be allowed to exist. Although many players would choose not to play in a league that takes so much of the players money, whereas my league pays out 100% of the players money every season and has done so for 9 seasons.

Mike Howerton has claimed that I had playoff matches added to my total but not to other people, which is a complete lie. If anyone uses Leaguesys, you will know that all matches need to be scheduled. In my league a playoff only happens if 2 teams are tied AFTER all scheduled league matches are played. Zero stat’s are entered for those matches and it’s only used to decide with place each team gets. In addition, I just triple checked all 9 seasons and I have never been the top shooter in my league. I did finish runner up to Mike Williams in the Fall 2012 season by a couple wins. None of my team members ever left Vegas to go home early as Mike states and John Smith has never filled in for anyone’s teams. Where do you guys come up with this crap? Mike also stated online: “On a personal note, I played a season together with Jerry on a team a few years back and none of this stuff was going on back then. In the past couple of years though, Jerry seems to have developed a reputation as someone who will bend the rules if it is for his own advantage. As he has taken on more of a role in the local pool scene (league operator, tournament director, president of the ratings committee), his reputation for shenanigans has grown.” My reputation has grown based on the pool politics and rumors spread from this camp. I run the league and pay out 100% of players monies to have the most competitive league in the state. I headed up the rating committee to help guide Arizona Pool and make it possible for more tournaments to run fair pool tournaments in the state. These are thankless positions and are done for the pool community because I love this game and want to see it grow. It’s very sad that as a Journalist, Mike, along with everyone else throwing stones, that you didn’t ask me one single question about any of the accusations you had built up and just talked behind my back. You had plenty of time to do so.

I know that Tres has a reputation for being very fair and I would agree with that in the most part. With that said, it’s puzzling to me that he would post up a thread about something he had no facts about and even noted several times that “this is what I heard from friends”. These same friends that have opposed my league and have publicly bashed me and Stinger’s for way too long. There are many incorrect statements in his out of line post, including that my team had beaten another of my in-house teams. The brackets are on ctsondemand for anyone to check (Stinger’s Venom). The only Arizona Team that my team did play against was none other than Larry Eans’ team and they play out of Bullshooter’s. No records were forged for ill intent and statistics were input the same week they were played. I also have text message correspondence between Tres and Myself and also between Bobby and Myself, from May 28th to see if he wanted to form an Advanced Team with Tres Kane, Bobby Emmons, Nick De Leon and Myself. In which Tres declined and said he would no longer participate in Team play.

“There will be blood?” – Tres Kane

I would suggest in the future that it’s probably not the smartest move to write on a public forum that what you are about to rant on about is going to lead to Violence against another person.



As far as the situation with the unqualified player playing in Vegas, there were mistakes made and I completely owned up to them in my letter to the BCAPL weeks ago. In numerous discussions we have come to solutions to rectify the issues and move forward with better record keeping. I’m sorry that this player was not qualified with the minimum number of weeks required to play at nationals, it will never happen again. The BCA Champions League will continue to move forward and field the toughest competition in the State, and also continue to pay out 100% of the player dues to the players every season. I have worked extremely hard to make this the best league for the Players the past 9 seasons and will continue to work for the players. Although I disagree with the BCAPL’s ruling as to my eligibility to compete individually in future events, we know exactly how they got to those decisions, and I will respect their decision. I will continue to grow and learn personally and strive to be the better person in every situation.



Jerry Stuckart

AZPoolScene@hotmail.com

tryin2playagain
09-10-2013, 07:05 PM
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2

AzHousePro
09-10-2013, 07:09 PM
I responded to this crap on Facebook, but I will paste it here too...

You can't use leaguesys as proof that you didn't add your wins to your season totals, when you don't use leaguesys. If you did use leaguesys, then sone of these problems would have come to light because last names would have been on the standings.

--------

Maybe you consider azpoolscene as competition to the paper, but I don't. I didn't consider it competition when Ron first put it online and I don't consider it competition now. Do you go out and cover events in other rooms on weekends? No, you don't. You cover your own events. That is not competition as far as covering pool in the valley.

---------

Jerry, it is MUCH more than just the Bullshooters camp that has taken note of your activities in the past couple years. It roughly started about the time you won the state championship and Ron gave you his website. I was not part of the "Bullshooters Camp" then and to be honest, I am not part of it now. I don't play league out of there, I played for a team at SW Regional from another room and will most likely play my next season for another room.

---------

Look, what I am the most interested in is INTEGRITY in the pool world. Both local and national. What you did in Vegas this year lacked integrity. You have done other things in the past that have lacked integrity and we all know about it. Someone who is supposed to be taking a leadership role in any situation, has to make absolutely sure that they are honest in everything they do. You didn't and you got caught. Trying to spin it that it was the fault of bookkeeping or makeup matches or anything else is just smoke and mirrors. You got caught.

---------

I have been approached by MANY people, even at Stingers, who want your head on a platter. They are tired of seeing you abuse whatever position you have. These are players that support Stingers and would definitely be considered part of the "Stingers Camp".

--------

I will give you one thing though. You have accomplished bringing the local pool scene together more than I have seen in many years. They are all together on the side of wanting you to stop doing what you are doing.

Mike

Mr Phil
09-10-2013, 07:11 PM
I would assume it would be fairly easy to determine if John P. played in this league or not. It is a large league, so I know there are plenty of people to ask. I played as a sub a few weeks myself and went to watch several other times and never saw him. I personally don't know if he played at all, but it sure sounds like he didn't. If that's the case then it is a rather clear violation and it sounds like more punishments and possible refunds to opponents affected should be put in motion. Just my opinion.

thebark
09-10-2013, 08:29 PM
there will be blood is not literal.

FasterBenny
09-10-2013, 10:42 PM
for now....

Roger Long
09-10-2013, 10:52 PM
Here is Jerry Stuckarts response to this all. http://mypoolscene.com/BreakingNews/tabid/146/EntryId/180/To-the-Arizona-Pool-Community.aspx

To the Arizona Pool Community:

Next, let’s give a little background to the one-way pool politics that have stemmed from the Bullshooter’s Camp, which is not limited to Tres Kane (who lives there, has his own table, runs tournaments, etc.), Roger Long (who owns the pool repair shop inside Bullshooter’s, cleans the tables, gives lessons, etc.), Larry Eans (who runs the AZ Hot Shots League and moved his headquarters to Bullshooter’s after his bar the Northern Lounge closed), the Owner and his ongoing spat with the Owner of Stinger’s Bar, Mike Howerton (runs azbilliards.com, local newspaper that competes with AZPoolScene, longtime Bullshooter’s and Hot shots supporter), etc. etc.

Roger Long has made some pretty outlandish comments about me personally and has continued to make up and lie about a situation from 2009 (4 years ago). In my league system, every single session, the first night of play a packet of rules is handed out to the captains of each team. In these rules it states on how subs can be used any week of the season until the final 4 weeks of play. On those final 4 weeks, you are not allowed to bring in any new players to the league. You can use anyone that has already played for the league this session, regardless of which team they subbed for. On the last night of play, position night, my team was set to play his team to decide between 2nd and 3rd place. One of our players was off playing in a pro tournament that she had qualified for so we needed a sub. Steve Blackburn had been identified as having played 9 weeks in the league in an 18 week session. Steve is the same rating as the person he was replacing, which has no effect in this handicapped system. In Leaguesys, once a player has played on a team the first time, it shows all of their statistics for the season under every team they played on. He finished with 10 weeks of play, but only played 1 on my team. My team won the match 13-10 to secure 2nd place. Earlier in the day Roger’s team had posted friendly banter on social media about the match and we had friendly smack talk back. After the win, there was a follow up social media post about the victory. Roger’s team protested the match and continues to say that I somehow changed online records. Steve did play in the league; the rules have never been posted online and only existed in hard copy and were handed out before the league. There was no illegal player on any team, the league agreed and the ruling made. He has continued to slam me and my league for 4 years because of his bitterness in the situation. This is the same Roger Long that petitioned the rating committee years ago to be raised to a 10 rated player, with the only supporting evidence being that as a 10 he would have more credibility to give pool lessons, aka benefit financially. He also illegally copied the entire Arizona Rating List of players and created a website that was unauthorized by the Committee that listed these players, but with one difference. Roger took it solely on himself to adjust players up and down on a daily/weekly basis depending on how he thought they were playing that week. He is currently not on the Arizona Ratings Sheet because he petitioned for the committee to remove him and wouldn’t be supporting Arizona Rated handicap tournaments in the State.


Jerry Stuckart

AZPoolScene@hotmail.com

I would like to address the charges that Jerry Stuckart leveled against me in his long-winded diatribe.

Concerning my rating: I lived here in Arizona from 1974 until 1986, at which time I moved to Florida and resided there for 8 years, and then returned to AZ in 1994. Prior to my moving to FL, there was no rating system at all in AZ, but upon returning, I found the "system" to be in full force, whereupon I thought I would like to jump into some tournaments. Since I had owned a pool room in FL in which I had run tournaments, operated leagues, and had the opportunity to meet and compete against some of the top players in the country, I thought I knew something about my own game. After watching a lot of the AZ players compete, I decided I would most likely fit in as a 9, this being on a scale of 4 to 12 (they call it 10-2 here). My first tournament was a 14.1 event in which the TD made me play at the highest rating since I was an unknown. That means I would have had to spot the best player in the tournament (Terry Osborne) 10 balls in a race to 100, if we had drawn each other. That didn't bother me, as I knew I had to pay my dues in order to get an "official" rating. Thankfully, I didn't have to play Terry, but I didn't do too badly by being in the seventies when the two 7-rated players I drew reached their limit of 50 balls. With this as confirmation (to me, anyway) that I should probably be rated 9, I was surprised when I went back to that same place for a 9-ball tournament, and the owner had me rated as a 7. Things became a little more clear when that same owner bought me in the Calcutta (that's when they were still running calcuttas here). I quickly saw how rating players low, and then buying them in calcuttas, might be pretty profitable. Later, when I went to protest my low rating, I found out that the owner who had given me the rating was also the chairman of the ratings committee. Over lunch, I explained to that gentleman that I didn't want to cause any trouble with other players, therefore, I would like to have my rating raised. When he asked, "to what?" I told him that I thought 9 would be a safe rating for all involved. He then told me that I would have to prove myself before he could jump me two levels. I said, "Okay, but I won't do it in your room."

My next tournament was a 9-ball event in a much larger room than my first experience. After watching me play for a while, the TD there assumed that I was a 9, so that's what he put down on the sign-up sheet. I then told him I would like to play as a 10 just to see how I could do. He agreed, and so I ended up winning that tournament, beating that TD (who was a 9-rated player) in the finals while giving him a spot. I then told the TD how the ratings chairman had "officially" rated me as a 7, to which he was not only shocked, but said he was going to get me raised at the next ratings meeting. He did, but only to an 8. That's when my distaste for "Arizona Ratings" began as I felt like the whole system was messed up. I eventually gave up trying to get an honest rating out of the committee, and ended up writing a letter to the then-chairman and asked him to remove my name from the rating list, giving him the excuse that it could potentially hurt my lesson business. But at no time, did I ever ask to be put on the sheet as a ten.

Concerning my ratings list: While working at Pappy's Sports Bar, I started my own rating list. My list was used only for players playing in Pappy's tournaments. I did use the same rating scale that was in effect everywhere else, but I built my list one player at a time, until I had around 2000 names on it; a far cry from the 12,000-name list that Jerry Stuckart has now twice claimed on these forums that I "stole" from the Arizona Ratings Committee.

Concerning the 2009 playoff match: Jerry mentioned that his 9-rated player was off playing in a pro tournament, which was his "reason" for using a 9-rated "house sub", but he never has explained where his 6-rated regular player was that night. And that "house sub" he used had not been listed as a house sub all season, but instead had played several weeks for another team and was listed as one of their regular players. But the next day, I checked the online standings and to my surprise, I found that the player in question was now prominently listed as a house sub. It's strange how I had missed that all season.

Jerry Stuckart may well have put it in his written rules that a "house sub" could be used the way he ended up using one, but that rule wasn't anything that caught my team's attention during the course of the season. We played in a way that we considered proper: we made sure we had plenty of players, and we listed them all as regulars. And we didn't expect any other team - let alone the LO's - to be putting moves on the other teams. But whether or not we were technically cheated, we sure felt like we were fundamentally cheated.

Now for a little personal background on Jerry Stuckart and I: Before the 2009 incident, Jerry was holding a benefit tournament for someone, and he was asking for product donations that he could raffle off to raise money. I donated two brand new cues with a combined value of around $300. During the start of the tournament, Jerry publicly thanked all of the donors by name...except for me. (That's alright, Jerry, you're welcome, anyway.)

And one night during the season I played in Jerry's league, his two little children were in the pool room trying to play pool with full sized house cues. I thought they were cute, and that they needed there own cues, so I built them each their own cue and delivered them to Jerry on league night the following week. Somehow, he's never been able to say thank you for that, either. (That's alright, Jerry, you're welcome, anyway.)

I wasn't in Vegas this year, so I don't personally know what happened there. All I know is, nothing Jerry Stuckart says or does surprises my anymore.

Roger Long

NYC cue dude
09-11-2013, 01:21 AM
Here is Jerry Stuckarts response to this all. http://mypoolscene.com/BreakingNews/tabid/146/EntryId/180/To-the-Arizona-Pool-Community.aspx

To the Arizona Pool Community:

I wanted to send this press release out in response to many allegation rumors that have been swirling around the state the past few weeks. I thought it was best to wait until the BCAPL had had enough time to gather any information they needed before responding. Below you will see responses to many of the ridiculous allegations that were made by members of a competing pool room/league to the league I have created. I will also inform you all of my decision to step down as co-chair of the Arizona Rating Committee and the conversations between Bill Vanderweyst and I the past few weeks. I will not be responding to any further rhetoric on any of the social media sites.

I stepped up to become the chairman of the rating committee earlier this year to help right the ship on many of the issues that have plagued the rating system for a number of years. I honestly believe that we, as a committee, have made many strides in the right direction. It is far from perfect, but many issues have been addressed and I wish the committee luck and support as they move on without me. In a letter I wrote to Bill V. this past weekend, I noted that my plate is just too full to give the committee the attention it needs. I have a full time and part time job on top of being a single dad to two elementary school aged kids, coaching soccer, cub scouts, running the pool league and promoting pool tournaments and synergy between rooms and their tournament scheduling. I have removed myself from the committee effective immediately and have already transferred over all the files to Bill earlier this week.

Next, let’s give a little background to the one-way pool politics that have stemmed from the Bullshooter’s Camp, which is not limited to Tres Kane (who lives there, has his own table, runs tournaments, etc.), Roger Long (who owns the pool repair shop inside Bullshooter’s, cleans the tables, gives lessons, etc.), Larry Eans (who runs the AZ Hot Shots League and moved his headquarters to Bullshooter’s after his bar the Northern Lounge closed), the Owner and his ongoing spat with the Owner of Stinger’s Bar, Mike Howerton (runs azbilliards.com, local newspaper that competes with AZPoolScene, longtime Bullshooter’s and Hot shots supporter), etc. etc.

Roger Long has made some pretty outlandish comments about me personally and has continued to make up and lie about a situation from 2009 (4 years ago). In my league system, every single session, the first night of play a packet of rules is handed out to the captains of each team. In these rules it states on how subs can be used any week of the season until the final 4 weeks of play. On those final 4 weeks, you are not allowed to bring in any new players to the league. You can use anyone that has already played for the league this session, regardless of which team they subbed for. On the last night of play, position night, my team was set to play his team to decide between 2nd and 3rd place. One of our players was off playing in a pro tournament that she had qualified for so we needed a sub. Steve Blackburn had been identified as having played 9 weeks in the league in an 18 week session. Steve is the same rating as the person he was replacing, which has no effect in this handicapped system. In Leaguesys, once a player has played on a team the first time, it shows all of their statistics for the season under every team they played on. He finished with 10 weeks of play, but only played 1 on my team. My team won the match 13-10 to secure 2nd place. Earlier in the day Roger’s team had posted friendly banter on social media about the match and we had friendly smack talk back. After the win, there was a follow up social media post about the victory. Roger’s team protested the match and continues to say that I somehow changed online records. Steve did play in the league; the rules have never been posted online and only existed in hard copy and were handed out before the league. There was no illegal player on any team, the league agreed and the ruling made. He has continued to slam me and my league for 4 years because of his bitterness in the situation. This is the same Roger Long that petitioned the rating committee years ago to be raised to a 10 rated player, with the only supporting evidence being that as a 10 he would have more credibility to give pool lessons, aka benefit financially. He also illegally copied the entire Arizona Rating List of players and created a website that was unauthorized by the Committee that listed these players, but with one difference. Roger took it solely on himself to adjust players up and down on a daily/weekly basis depending on how he thought they were playing that week. He is currently not on the Arizona Ratings Sheet because he petitioned for the committee to remove him and wouldn’t be supporting Arizona Rated handicap tournaments in the State.

Larry Eans is the owner of the AZ Hot Shots league. We are direct competitors in the same area where many players call home. His league could benefit greatly and Bullshooters beneficially if my league would not be allowed to exist. Although many players would choose not to play in a league that takes so much of the players money, whereas my league pays out 100% of the players money every season and has done so for 9 seasons.

Mike Howerton has claimed that I had playoff matches added to my total but not to other people, which is a complete lie. If anyone uses Leaguesys, you will know that all matches need to be scheduled. In my league a playoff only happens if 2 teams are tied AFTER all scheduled league matches are played. Zero stat’s are entered for those matches and it’s only used to decide with place each team gets. In addition, I just triple checked all 9 seasons and I have never been the top shooter in my league. I did finish runner up to Mike Williams in the Fall 2012 season by a couple wins. None of my team members ever left Vegas to go home early as Mike states and John Smith has never filled in for anyone’s teams. Where do you guys come up with this crap? Mike also stated online: “On a personal note, I played a season together with Jerry on a team a few years back and none of this stuff was going on back then. In the past couple of years though, Jerry seems to have developed a reputation as someone who will bend the rules if it is for his own advantage. As he has taken on more of a role in the local pool scene (league operator, tournament director, president of the ratings committee), his reputation for shenanigans has grown.” My reputation has grown based on the pool politics and rumors spread from this camp. I run the league and pay out 100% of players monies to have the most competitive league in the state. I headed up the rating committee to help guide Arizona Pool and make it possible for more tournaments to run fair pool tournaments in the state. These are thankless positions and are done for the pool community because I love this game and want to see it grow. It’s very sad that as a Journalist, Mike, along with everyone else throwing stones, that you didn’t ask me one single question about any of the accusations you had built up and just talked behind my back. You had plenty of time to do so.

I know that Tres has a reputation for being very fair and I would agree with that in the most part. With that said, it’s puzzling to me that he would post up a thread about something he had no facts about and even noted several times that “this is what I heard from friends”. These same friends that have opposed my league and have publicly bashed me and Stinger’s for way too long. There are many incorrect statements in his out of line post, including that my team had beaten another of my in-house teams. The brackets are on ctsondemand for anyone to check (Stinger’s Venom). The only Arizona Team that my team did play against was none other than Larry Eans’ team and they play out of Bullshooter’s. No records were forged for ill intent and statistics were input the same week they were played. I also have text message correspondence between Tres and Myself and also between Bobby and Myself, from May 28th to see if he wanted to form an Advanced Team with Tres Kane, Bobby Emmons, Nick De Leon and Myself. In which Tres declined and said he would no longer participate in Team play.

“There will be blood?” – Tres Kane

I would suggest in the future that it’s probably not the smartest move to write on a public forum that what you are about to rant on about is going to lead to Violence against another person.



As far as the situation with the unqualified player playing in Vegas, there were mistakes made and I completely owned up to them in my letter to the BCAPL weeks ago. In numerous discussions we have come to solutions to rectify the issues and move forward with better record keeping. I’m sorry that this player was not qualified with the minimum number of weeks required to play at nationals, it will never happen again. The BCA Champions League will continue to move forward and field the toughest competition in the State, and also continue to pay out 100% of the player dues to the players every season. I have worked extremely hard to make this the best league for the Players the past 9 seasons and will continue to work for the players. Although I disagree with the BCAPL’s ruling as to my eligibility to compete individually in future events, we know exactly how they got to those decisions, and I will respect their decision. I will continue to grow and learn personally and strive to be the better person in every situation.



Jerry Stuckart

AZPoolScene@hotmail.com


Then guess what? You're a liar.

Azsandshark
09-11-2013, 02:57 AM
I run Arizona Hot Shots Pool League #0010 in Phoenix, Arizona. Though I am not involved in this mess, regretfully I have to respond to this personal attack

Jerry Stuckart.
Please don’t attempt to disparage my name and reputation to distract everyone from your actions. I have nothing to do with the position you, your league (BCA Champions League #1094), your players, your host location and the BCAPL as a whole are in right now. This issue of you fabricating stats to benefit your team at the Nationals was reported by players in your league that recognized you were cheating. THEY came forward and reported it, not I. The captain of the team that your stats showed the player in question John P. playing on even denied knowing who this guy is or ever seeing him in the poolroom ever. He never played a match for that team, though his team stats showed he played 8 weeks I was told on his team. Your players were offended and brought it forward.

Attempting to say that this is a vendetta between another league operator, bar/pool room owners, pool instructors and those in the media is absolutely asinine and just a way to distract the BCAPL and Arizona players from the fact that you defrauded just over 6000 players on a National level. This comes at a bad time for the BCAPL as the APA has recently lost all credibility last year when they failed to protect their players from a team fraudulently switching players during their event. That team went on to win their National Championship. There is a long thread on this forum regarding that mess.

I am disappointed that a comment was made online regarding Tres Kane losing respect for coming forward to report this to the BCAPL and/or repeating what Jerry was saying at the BCA SW Regionals over Labor Day about what his punishment will be even before it was announced(probation). It gives the appearance of the whistleblower being called out, and not the perpetrator. Tres’ character has never wavered over all the years I have known him and played with him. He will call a friend or an organization out it he believes they are wrong. I admire this about him. This is a time when the 6000 players at the Nationals should be re-assured this behavior will not be tolerated, instead Tres loses respect and the cheating LO gets, well, gets to keep on operating as usual. I understand all the information regarding what took place in fabricating the stats was provided by players in Jerry Stuckarts league and brought forward to the BCAPL by Tres. Neither I, AHSPL, Mike Bates of Bullshooters, Roger Long, or Mike Howerton of AzBilliards.com was involved in any of this. Your own league players who were appalled that you cheated to benefit yourself and your team reported you. I am glad you are an active father and gainfully employed, but none of that back patting has anything to do with the move you pulled on ALL of the participants at the 2013 BCA Nationals. There were 5 or 6 teams that lost to your team ‘STINGER’S VENOM’. I am sure those players and league operators would not be too happy if they find out that probation was the consequence for falsifying stats for a player who never played one game.

Personally, saying I moved my camp to Bullshooters makes no sense and has no bearing on your actions. But I will respond since you stated it as if I have done something wrong. I currently have 30 teams in 3 divisions in my traveling league and only two teams currently call Bullshooters home. I had a max of 5 teams playing there at one time and that was the team’s captain’s choice of where to play. I have currently 3 teams playing out of Stingers on Tuesday Nights so to imply there are issues between me and the proprietor is just plain false. Dale, owner of Stingers, has been aggressively supporting pool for some time now, and I only feel terrible for him committing himself and adding tons of cash every month to his tournaments to have this drama and reputation brought on him or his establishment. PROPS to Dale!

Jerry, you referred to the team I played on as Larry’s team out of Bullshooters. FYI; I was asked to play on this Vegas team (Pool Gods) with friends I have known for years. This team is/was playing out of Tony’s Cocktail Lounge, not Bullshooters not that it makes a difference. This team asked me to take the spot of a team member of theirs that recently passed away. His name was Guy Martinez and was liked by the entire pool community here in AZ. I was not planning on playing in the team event in Vegas, but the singles and possibly scotch, however this was something I could not pass up. Another friend also felt compelled to represent Guy when asked by this team as well, that was Louie Fratini. I have known all these team members for years and was honored to play with them in remembrance (JD Wilkins, Mike Zingg, Bob Danser, Chris Shenker and Mario Aragon) of Guy. We didn’t field a team to win, only represent the Martinez family. Our team was made up of a 5, three 6’s, two 7’s, an 8 and I a 9. So to imply there were hard feelings at our loss, simply aren’t true.

As a league operator I have to answer to my players first and foremost. If I do not run a consistent, fun and honest league, they will find another league operator who will provide that. My players have many other options to choose from but choose to play in AZ Hot Shots. Most importantly I run this league with integrity Jerry.

In a city of almost 4 million people (Metro Phoenix), there is 1 APA operator, 1 TAP operator, 1 VNEA operator, 3 ACS operators including you Jerry (or are you using someone else’s name), 2 independent operators and Co-incidentally there are 8 BCA league operators. 5 of these BCA operators are running leagues within 5 square miles of each other on the side of town my league operates. I think if you were to lose the sanctioning ability your players would have many choices to continue to sanction with the BCAPL without playing in AHSPL if they chose. Or continue to play in your league as an ACS league. Arizona Hot Shots is a traveling league that has multiple divisions on multiple nights covering a large portion of Metro Phoenix. I am glad you have two arms to continue to pat your back. You run a single in house division. It is great that you can pay out 100% of the league dues. Your expenses to run your league are nothing. Maybe you can throw in the money you defrauded the teams in Vegas out of for cashing in 65th place in open teams during this next session. That would be inspiring!

I have run a league since the mid 90’s and have traveled to the BCA Nationals since 1990. Over the years as an operator I have encouraged and introduced many league players to participate in National Tournament and it is important that they are confident that all is being done to provide a fair playing field and that all players are qualified to participate. We needed our parent league organization to reach a consensus and provide a just resolution to ensure the confidence of its members. I am sorry that I do not agree their decision met the severity of the infraction, based on the Code of Ethics they employ below.


Here is the Code of Ethics that all League Operators sign off on to be a League Operator. It can be found on the PLAYBCA.COM website under leagues.

League Operator Code of Ethics

Pledge
In matters of ethics, pool league operators sanctioned by the BCA Pool League (BCAPL) are required to be dedicated to the promotion of honest, fair and competitive pool leagues, and believing that honorable competition between players and other leagues is essential to the accomplishments of our common objectives, do hereby pledge to abide by the following Code of Ethics.
Code of Ethics

•We shall not engage in illegal activity involving moral turpitude or conduct involving dishonesty, fraud, deceit or misrepresentation.
Falsification of stats, ding, ding, ding.

•We shall not make a material false statement, nor deliberately fail to disclose a material requested fact, in connection with an application for sanctioning with the BCAPL.
And Bingo was his Name-O

•We shall at all times treat all players, other leagues and the public with dignity, respect and courtesy.
Attacking the integrity of other league operators (AZ Hot Shots) to deflect attention from your cheating.

•We shall always conduct ourselves and our league business in a fair and honest manner refraining at all times from conduct or practices that inhibit the expansion of pool leagues or that reflect discredit upon the sport, other BCAPL sanctioned (or advertised as to be sanctioned) leagues, or the BCAPL.
Discredit to the sport of billiards, the BCAPL and AZ Hot Shots Pool League – Oopsie, JERRY!

•We shall not engage in or permit any unauthorized use of the Association's name or logo or the unauthorized use of any other materials in which the BCAPL claims a proprietary interest.
Your good here though!!!

•We shall not misrepresent the existence or availability of BCAPL sanctioning for any league or player.
That’s two Jerry! You’re on a roll!

•We agree to place all prize funds on deposit with the BCA Pool League if required.
Finishing strong!

Affirmation
League Operators are bound to abide by the aforementioned Pledge and Code of Ethics as a condition of sanctioning with the BCA Pool League, subject to the review of the BCAPL. The BCAPL reserves the right to deny any applicant, as well as revoke any league sanctioning from an operator it deems, at its sole and absolute discretion, operates in an unfair or dishonest manner, inhibits the expansion of pool leagues, discredits the sport or other BCAPL sanctioned leagues, discredits the BCAPL or operates to undermine the growth of the BCAPL league system by negligent, unethical or immoral behavior.

Lastly, I was also a member of the Arizona Ratings Committee for 13 years and I agree it can be a thankless job sometimes. With my tenor in mind, I was approached by Jerry’s co-chairman of the Arizona Ratings Committee at the BCA SW Regionals for my opinion. Tres Kane was standing with me at the time as we were teammates at this event. This other chairman had been approached by several members of the committee since Vegas that planned on voting Jerry off the committee at the next meeting for conduct detrimental to the sport and the over 12,000 Arizona pool players on the ratings list that this group is honored to represent. This chairman was given a suggestion by Tres of emailing Jerry Stuckart and letting him know that this will be happening and give him a chance to respectfully resign from the committee. It is obviously no coincidence that Jerry decided to resign. Busy schedule?
LMAO

The worst part in this is the entire Arizona Pool Community and the other honest league operators as a whole will unfortunately be clouded by conduct such as this for some time. The BCAPL and other states will inevitably look upon the state as cheaters and drama due to the actions involving this incident. It would have been wise for Jerry to honorably accept the BCAPL decision graciously and continue to operate his league, but it appears he feels emboldened by the decision instead and to go on a character attack of many individuals, including myself and my league, after being caught falsifying stats. Where are the repercussions of "discrediting other BCAPL sanctioned leagues" I ask the BCAPL staff???

Pretty arrogant of Jerry Stuckart don’t you think? Are people just trying to bash Jerry Stuckart because they don’t like him? Judge for yourself, Arizonans already have.

Once again, I am sorry to have to respond to this, I never intended to become involved. I had no choice.

Respectively,

Larry Eans
Arizona Hot Shots Pool League

jka
09-11-2013, 03:24 AM
http://forums.azbilliards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=293598&stc=1&d=1378865101

Nice turd.

lorider
09-11-2013, 07:21 AM
I am going to answer this one; because there have been some inaccurate statements made, I will try to point out some of the differences.

The player that was used in the nationals was a BCAPL member - he just did not have enough weeks to be fully qualified. He needed 8 weeks and he was a couple of weeks short. Just an FYI, we can and do waive players who are short on weeks if there is a legitimate reason - and it is done on a case by case method.

The players in the APA situation falsely represented themselves as being another player. that is a completely different set of facts. Those players admitted impersonating other players. That is far more blatant and pretty 'cut - n -dried'.

I do not consider barring them as 'airing your business in public'. We don't accept players that blatantly cheat. The facts in this situation do not equate to the APA player's set of facts. Our letter of disciplinary action was sent to the League Operator and the offending players. Out of respect, we also sent the letter to other League Operators in the immediate area.

I know you must be having fun trying to 'paint us all with the same brush' - but please don't try to compare apples to oranges.

Respectfully,

Mark Griffin

with all due respect mr. griffin when you bend the rules on a case by case basis you set your self up for all kind of headaches and apparently that is what you are faced with here.

in mr stukarts response he stated he allowed the player to play due to a " clerical error.

well it seems to me the player in question should know how many weeks he played and whether he was qualified or not. the captIain of the team should know also. the lo ? well he oughta know but i can see where it would be wise to say hey it was a clerical error.

i am not saying that it is the case here but .... when you say well it was a clerical error and he was only 2 weeks short so we are not gonna disqualify that team well it just reeks of favoritism i am sorry to say.

kinda strange 3 posters come on here and say that player never played on that team and you say they are all wrong and that he did play but was just 2 weeks short of qualifying.

in summary i would say at least the player in question knew he was blataltly cheating and should be disqualified .

oh yea .. as far as not wanting to air your business on a public forum. not only did you post twice in that apa thread that you banned those players you even started a thread stating you banned them because you wanted every one to know how you handled your business.

please dont take what i am about to say as trying to tell you how to run your businessi know i am a nobody in the pool world.

1. you yourself have stated that letting all your 500 lo's run their league as they see fit is both good and bad. the bad part is it leads to situations like this. they should all be under one set of rules governed by the national office.

2. league operators playing on teams. again you are setting yourself up for headaches such as this .whether the lo does anything wrong or not it just leads to problems such as what has transpired here.

and no it is not any fun writing this. it is actually quite a sad situation for all parties involved. i am glad i am not in yours or mr. stocks shoes right now. no matter what decisions you make its a no win situation for you 2. there are still going to be people involved who will be upset by the decisions made.

Kickin' Chicken
09-11-2013, 08:20 AM
IMHO

If Mr. Stuckart *knowingly* allowed an unqualified player to compete on his team then an *appropriately harsh* penalty should follow.

If it can be *proven* that there has been a history of this type of behavior by Mr. Stuckart, then all ties should be cut with him by anyone wishing to not tarnish their brand.

To me the key in all of this is whether there was a genuine clerical error or was it blatant cheating.

If blatant cheating really occurred, then Mr. Stuckart should please spare everyone the details on all of the good things he's done for pool in the state of Arizona as that would just be subterfuge.

best,
brian kc

Maniac
09-11-2013, 08:49 AM
I have no dog in this fight, but I've read the whole thread start-to-finish, and I have this to say:

Without naming names, I must say that there are at least two people I have lost respect for. One, who has NOT posted on this thread directly, has lost all my respect. The other, who HAS posted on this thread several times, I have lost SOME respect for.

OTOH, there are several posters, ones that I already had a lot of respect for that now, after reading their calm, clear-headed, well-written posts, have earned a lot more respect than I already had for them.

This type of thread saddens me. Not because a bad LO has been outed, but because a bad LO HAD to be outed. I am in the camp of those who say that this type of behavior needs to be aired on a public forum. To say it's nobody's business is asinine. One poster (and I'm sure there are others) moved from one state to Arizona and got caught up in this mess. It could happen to others. We have the right as pool players who may wind up in Arizona as a resident, travelling tournament player, or future league player, to know what is happening in the world of pool in any given state/area.

Having toiled for six years under a dishonest/biased LO, I put them in the same boat as a crooked cop. Their status holds them to higher standards, so when they abuse their power, they SHOULD be handled more harshly when caught with their hands in the cookie jar.

Just my $.02.

Maniac

Bill S
09-11-2013, 09:17 AM
Bill, it wasn't my intention to torch either you or the BCAPL. I am a fervent backer of the great things you guys have done for pool players. My decision to post here was made after consultation with some very level headed people in our area. I awaited patiently and silently for six weeks for a decision. But when the Southwest regional came and went I still hadn't heard a thing. I brought it to your attention and felt you could have at least told me personally that you were still working on. Others have told me that they had asked for updates but nothing was forthcoming.

It was only then I decided to go to a public forum. Time has a way of muting the indignation we originally feel. I wanted to express my feelings before I just didn't care enough to see the matter through to a just conclusion. I am sure we are both guilty of mistakes and am deeply sorry for the strain in our friendship. When you play poker you don't always know the other guys hand. Its not personal Sonny, its only business. Tres Kane

I will not comment on any more of the posts as the punishment has been delivered.

I stated that I would not post again, but I feel that I must say one thing.

Tres, I apologize to you about my remarks. I probably overreacted and posted before I gave it appropriate thought. I posted immediately after reading your post and was a little steamed.

Again, I appologize whole heartedly to you.

lorider
09-11-2013, 09:44 AM
I will not comment on any more of the posts as the punishment has been delivered.

I stated that I would not post again, but I feel that I must say one thing.

Tres, I apologize to you about my remarks. I probably overreacted and posted before I gave it appropriate thought. I posted immediately after reading your post and was a little steamed.

Again, I appologize whole heartedly to you.

i never lost any respect for you when you posted your response to tres because i knew it was kinda a knee jerk reaction due to the stress this situation has put upon you.

with your post here you just gained even more respect from me.

kudos to you.

8ballplaya
09-11-2013, 11:03 AM
Wow Thank you Bill for that apology! I was upset when I read you lost respect for Tres, yet Jerry was the one who cheated everyone!
Here it goes,I know John P. (Man in question). I know he NEVER played one week in our (In- House League) There are about 60 players every week that play in a confined area every Wed night. I am there from 7pm til midnight interacting with my fellow pool friends. Lets use an example.. I know Tres and if he played in the leaguE I would Know he played there because I know him.. Same thing with John p. I know John P. and I know he
NEVER EVER played in our League. Not to Mention, Rules state you must have 3 original players come from the same team. This is also a violation because the only had two players from the same team and used John P as their 3rd player. (Who has never played in the league) Its just outright wrong! But I guess Somehow BCA Knows that facts and it was a Small error of not enough weeks.... Geez Im not sure how many players have to say this was a straight of Fraud to BCA and the BCA players who qualified the right way and didnt cash due to this!! Changing Stats and Names just so you go up with a strong team... And your a LO. :(

tucson9ball
09-11-2013, 11:36 AM
Wow Thank you Bill for that apology! I was upset when I read you lost respect for Tres, yet Jerry was the one who cheated everyone!
Here it goes,I know John P. (Man in question). I know he NEVER played one week in our (In- House League) There are about 60 players every week that play in a confined area every Wed night. I am there from 7pm til midnight interacting with my fellow pool friends. Lets use an example.. I know Tres and if he played in the leaguE I would Know he played there because I know him.. Same thing with John p. I know John P. and I know he
NEVER EVER played in our League. Not to Mention, Rules state you must have 3 original players come from the same team. This is also a violation because the only had two players from the same team and used John P as their 3rd player. (Who has never played in the league) Its just outright wrong! But I guess Somehow BCA Knows that facts and it was a Small error of not enough weeks.... Geez Im not sure how many players have to say this was a straight of Fraud to BCA and the BCA players who qualified the right way and didnt cash due to this!! Changing Stats and Names just so you go up with a strong team... And your a LO. :(


Adding your name would add credibility to this post......just sayin....

thebark
09-11-2013, 11:41 AM
Thanks bill

cardiac kid
09-11-2013, 12:03 PM
Rules state you must have 3 original players come from the same team. This is also a violation because the only had two players from the same team and used John P as their 3rd player. (Who has never played in the league) Its just outright wrong! But I guess Somehow BCA Knows that facts and it was a Small error of not enough weeks.... Geez Im not sure how many players have to say this was a straight of Fraud to BCA and the BCA players who qualified the right way and didnt cash due to this!! Changing Stats and Names just so you go up with a strong team... And your a LO. :(

8 Ball,

Sorry to disagree but BCAPL rules state only TWO original members of a team. Those TWO players must play EVERY round. The rest of the qualified team players may come from any other team in the same league SYSTEM. Of those, only one player may be rated Advanced. No Masters. No Grand Masters. Not part of BCAPL / CSI but I can assure you I know that rule in detail!

Also feel Bill Stock has a thankless job. If he does his job correctly, players who attempt to manipulate the system will be dealt with. Bill, Mark and myself have had a few go arounds through the years. In retrospect, I was always treated fairly even if not completely to my satisfaction.

Lyn

tryin2playagain
09-11-2013, 05:22 PM
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2

lorider
09-11-2013, 08:58 PM
8 Ball,

Sorry to disagree but BCAPL rules state only TWO original members of a team. Those TWO players must play EVERY round. The rest of the qualified team players may come from any other team in the same league SYSTEM. Of those, only one player may be rated Advanced. No Masters. No Grand Masters. Not part of BCAPL / CSI but I can assure you I know that rule in detail!

Also feel Bill Stock has a thankless job. If he does his job correctly, players who attempt to manipulate the system will be dealt with. Bill, Mark and myself have had a few go arounds through the years. In retrospect, I was always treated fairly even if not completely to my satisfaction.

Lyn

lynn its been awhile since i played bcapl but you are correct as far as i remember what the rules are.

whats puzzling about this situation is mr griffin said the player did not have the required number of weeks to qualify. he mentioned 8 weeks.it seems mr griffin decided not to disqualify this team as per his leagues rules but since he owns the league i guess its his perogative to make that call. mr stuckarts letter mentioned he made an error and apologized that the player in question did not have enough weeks .

the link provided showed the player played 14 weeks on mr. stuckarts team which is more than enough to qualify as i remember. yet you have people coming on here and claiming that this particular player never played one week on mr. stuckarts team.

what i find interesting is that i pulled up current stats for that particular league and that players name is not listed in that league on any of the teams listed.

it just dont add up lynn.

Maniac
09-11-2013, 09:19 PM
lynn its been awhile since i played bcapl but you are correct as far as i remember what the rules are.

whats puzzling about this situation is mr griffin said the player did not have the required number of weeks to qualify. he mentioned 8 weeks.it seems mr griffin decided not to disqualify this team as per his leagues rules but since he owns the league i guess its his perogative to make that call. mr stuckarts letter mentioned he made an error and apologized that the player in question did not have enough weeks .

the link provided showed the player played 14 weeks on mr. stuckarts team which is more than enough to qualify as i remember. yet you have people coming on here and claiming that this particular player never played one week on mr. stuckarts team.

what i find interesting is that i pulled up current stats for that particular league and that players name is not listed in that league on any of the teams listed.

it just dont add up lynn.

It definitely smells like tuna!!!

Maniac

Mr Phil
09-12-2013, 12:16 PM
I must say I'm pretty disappointed with the response from BCA. It seems pretty clear that this wasn't a clerical error and that John P. never played in this league. I am curious as to what kind of investigation actually took place since there are 60 or so players in this league who can confirm that John never played. I don't really care if any additional punishment is handed out, but I really don't like the callousness that has been displayed by the powers that be. Once again just my feelings and opinion.

cardiac kid
09-12-2013, 12:53 PM
I must say I'm pretty disappointed with the response from BCA. It seems pretty clear that this wasn't a clerical error and that John P. never played in this league. I am curious as to what kind of investigation actually took place since there are 60 or so players in this league who can confirm that John never played. I don't really care if any additional punishment is handed out, but I really don't like the callousness that has been displayed by the powers that be. Once again just my feelings and opinion.

In the end, it's all about trust! From personal experience, I know how seriously Bill Stock takes his job. Really, really want to trust BCAPL did the right thing. Never met JS. Know and like Tres. In the end this is strictly business, not personal. Other than the people directly in the "know", the rest of us are just guessing. Wishing and hoping doesn't cut it.

Lyn

lorider
09-12-2013, 04:40 PM
8 Ball,

Sorry to disagree but BCAPL rules state only TWO original members of a team. Those TWO players must play EVERY round. The rest of the qualified team players may come from any other team in the same league SYSTEM. Of those, only one player may be rated Advanced. No Masters. No Grand Masters. Not part of BCAPL / CSI but I can assure you I know that rule in detail!

Also feel Bill Stock has a thankless job. If he does his job correctly, players who attempt to manipulate the system will be dealt with. Bill, Mark and myself have had a few go arounds through the years. In retrospect, I was always treated fairly even if not completely to my satisfaction.

Lyn

lynn would you mind clarifying something ?

when you say SAME LEAGUE SYSTEM do you mean the same league that he has to play out of the same league that particular team plays out of ? or can he come from one of the other lo's league in the same town?

i believe mr stuckart only has what i call one division and that is the wed night in house league that this particular team plays in.

i pulled up some interesting stats about mr stuckarts league while ago.

1. the player in qi=uestion is listed on mr. stuckarts team but also listed as a house sub. the thing that puzzles me is this players stats shows 14 weeks played on mr stuckarts team and this players individual stats also show 14 weeks played.

now mr stuckart admitted in his letter he used a player that did not have enough weeks in. mr griffin mentioned this player was a couple of weeks shy of being eligible which would mean he played about 6 weeks.

it just dont add up.

i found some more interesting facts.

last session mr stuckart had 14 teams and 37 house subs listed for his league.

this session which the site shows 4 weeks played so far shows 3 less teams and 30 less house subs from last session.

according to those stats it seems like quite a few people decided to drop out of his league all at once .

i wonder why he would have a chit load of players drop out all of a sudden ?

oh yea and one of those players that is not listed for the new session just so happens to be the ineligible player this thread is about.

ingins
09-12-2013, 04:43 PM
Alot of players take the session after bca nationals off

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk 4

lorider
09-12-2013, 04:57 PM
Alot of players take the session after bca nationals off

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk 4

that never happens in my apa leagues . when every one gets back from nationals they get busy playing makeup matches for the week they were gone.

i just thought it strange he has about 50 less people this session than he had last session.

with 7 other bcapl leagues in that metro area i think after all this his league would be the last one i would ever play in. no he would not be ;ast , he would not even exist to me, i would rather play apa than his league.:grin:

Majic
09-12-2013, 05:31 PM
THERE WILL BE BLOOOOOOOOOOD! lol settle down, it's pool league.

it's a metaphor.................are you serious.

cardiac kid
09-12-2013, 05:34 PM
lynn would you mind clarifying something ?

when you say SAME LEAGUE SYSTEM do you mean the same league that he has to play out of the same league that particular team plays out of ? or can he come from one of the other lo's league in the same town?

i believe mr stuckart only has what i call one division and that is the wed night in house league that this particular team plays in.

i pulled up some interesting stats about mr stuckarts league while ago.

1. the player in qi=uestion is listed on mr. stuckarts team but also listed as a house sub. the thing that puzzles me is this players stats shows 14 weeks played on mr stuckarts team and this players individual stats also show 14 weeks played.

now mr stuckart admitted in his letter he used a player that did not have enough weeks in. mr griffin mentioned this player was a couple of weeks shy of being eligible which would mean he played about 6 weeks.

it just dont add up.

i found some more interesting facts.

last session mr stuckart had 14 teams and 37 house subs listed for his league.

this session which the site shows 4 weeks played so far shows 3 less teams and 30 less house subs from last session.

according to those stats it seems like quite a few people decided to drop out of his league all at once .

i wonder why he would have a chit load of players drop out all of a sudden ?

oh yea and one of those players that is not listed for the new session just so happens to be the ineligible player this thread is about.

As I mentioned, I'm really familiar with the rules regarding team formation. The rule states that TWO players MUST be from the original team. The rest of the team can be any sanctioned players from the SAME league operators SYSTEM including ONE Advanced player. As an example, Monday night was eight ball on big tables. Tuesday night was eight ball on small tables. Wednesday night was nine ball on the small tables. All three nights were listed under the same BCAPL / ACS number. As all three were the same number, we were able to take two guys from our "core" team (who played every round from the first round to the finals) and five additional players from the rest of the league and formed a single team to compete at Nationals. Know for sure our team was scrutinized heavily by Bill S and BCAPL before we were allowed to play. We didn't bend the rules. We did exactly what the rules told us we could do! And yes, all seven of us had at least eight weeks of competition on the nights we qualified on.

I do have one question. How was JS able to change the leaguesys numbers? Thought the stats were supposed to be entered every week. If this John P was listed as having played and didn't, how did the numbers get there for ALL the weeks he supposedly played?

Lyn

lowrider, go to the main page of the BCAPL website. Under Leagues, use to drop down and go to League Policies. The rule I'm referring to was updated on June 1, 2011 and is still in force.

lorider
09-12-2013, 07:08 PM
As I mentioned, I'm really familiar with the rules regarding team formation. The rule states that TWO players MUST be from the original team. The rest of the team can be any sanctioned players from the SAME league operators SYSTEM including ONE Advanced player. As an example, Monday night was eight ball on big tables. Tuesday night was eight ball on small tables. Wednesday night was nine ball on the small tables. All three nights were listed under the same BCAPL / ACS number. As all three were the same number, we were able to take two guys from our "core" team (who played every round from the first round to the finals) and five additional players from the rest of the league and formed a single team to compete at Nationals. Know for sure our team was scrutinized heavily by Bill S and BCAPL before we were allowed to play. We didn't bend the rules. We did exactly what the rules told us we could do! And yes, all seven of us had at least eight weeks of competition on the nights we qualified on.

I do have one question. How was JS able to change the leaguesys numbers? Thought the stats were supposed to be entered every week. If this John P was listed as having played and didn't, how did the numbers get there for ALL the weeks he supposedly played?

Lyn

lowrider, go to the main page of the BCAPL website. Under Leagues, use to drop down and go to League Policies. The rule I'm referring to was updated on June 1, 2011 and is still in force.

thanks for telling me how to pull up bcapl rules lynn.

according to the rules the player in question was eligible if and a big if ..he had enough matches in.

well mr stuckart and mr griffin stated the player did not have enough matches in. then you have players that do play in that league stating they never saw him there .....ever.

although i have not been a member of bcapl for a number of years and have only been a member here for a few years my opinion may not mean diddly squat about this situation ... but i am gonna give it anyway.:grin-square:

after reading mr griffin posts on here for a couple of years, reading other posts about what he has done for the pool community, noting how he handled the taiwanese situation which i applauded, noting how he handled the 2 bcapl players who were on the apa dq'ed team which i also applauded on here i have always thought mr griffin a man who's character was above reproach.i still kinda think that way but i must admit how he has handled this situation so far has disappointed me.

i will admit i do not know the facts, actually i do not think any one who has posted on here including the op know the facts. the only people who know the facts are the people who were on that team.

i will agree that it really is none of my business what really happened as i was not involved.... but it just seems like instead of mr. griffin cleaning house he just swept the mess under the rug so to speak regarding this situation.

Roger Long
09-12-2013, 07:22 PM
As I mentioned, I'm really familiar with the rules regarding team formation. The rule states that TWO players MUST be from the original team. The rest of the team can be any sanctioned players from the SAME league operators SYSTEM including ONE Advanced player. As an example, Monday night was eight ball on big tables. Tuesday night was eight ball on small tables. Wednesday night was nine ball on the small tables. All three nights were listed under the same BCAPL / ACS number. As all three were the same number, we were able to take two guys from our "core" team (who played every round from the first round to the finals) and five additional players from the rest of the league and formed a single team to compete at Nationals. Know for sure our team was scrutinized heavily by Bill S and BCAPL before we were allowed to play. We didn't bend the rules. We did exactly what the rules told us we could do! And yes, all seven of us had at least eight weeks of competition on the nights we qualified on.

I do have one question. How was JS able to change the leaguesys numbers? Thought the stats were supposed to be entered every week. If this John P was listed as having played and didn't, how did the numbers get there for ALL the weeks he supposedly played?

Lyn

lowrider, go to the main page of the BCAPL website. Under Leagues, use to drop down and go to League Policies. The rule I'm referring to was updated on June 1, 2011 and is still in force.

It's been reported locally that the numbers showing on the website belong to John W, a man who did play 14 weeks in that league, but also a man whose name somehow disappeared from the standings when all this went down.. I have known John W for many years, so I could call him for verification of this, if necessary. And according to a person who came into my shop just today, and one who knows John P, he said John P never played a single night in that league.

Jerry has already received the punishment that the BCAPL deemed warranted, and there's nothing any of us can do to change anything we might not agree with in this matter. However, everyone here, including myself, is curious as to whether this instance was just a one-time negligent mistake, or whether it was a blatant forgery of official records. If it was just a one-time mistake, maybe Jerry should not have received any punishment at all.

Roger

lorider
09-12-2013, 08:14 PM
It's been reported locally that the numbers showing on the website belong to John W, a man who did play 14 weeks in that league, but also a man whose name somehow disappeared from the standings when all this went down.. I have known John W for many years, so I could call him for verification of this, if necessary. And according to a person who came into my shop just today, and one who knows John P, he said John P never played a single night in that league.

Jerry has already received the punishment that the BCAPL deemed warranted, and there's nothing any of us can do to change anything we might not agree with in this matter. However, everyone here, including myself, is curious as to whether this instance was just a one-time negligent mistake, or whether it was a blatant forgery of official records. If it was just a one-time mistake, maybe Jerry should not have received any punishment at all.

Roger

i like your level headed response here after reading your 1st post where you shared your experience about your match vs his team 3 years ago.

i saw where john w did not have any stats but there were stats for john p but i did not bother bringing it up because i honestly dont know if such a person exists. i just commented on the number of weeks i saw for john p. which i still find puzzling because the number of matches shown is more than enough to be qualified. yet you have mr. stuckart and mr. griffin admitting the player did not have enough matches played.

mr stuckart in his letter stated a lot of people were out to get him. mr stock in his 1st post even stated he knew the op and others in the area did not like mr stuckart.

is it even plausible for the op and apparently a lot of other people in that area to get together and make up a story claiming mr stuckart knowingly played some one who was not eligible? then mr stuckart admits he did that but it was a clerical error ?

no matter what any one thinks it seems like all the higher ups could do was go by what was actually shown on the stats not what people say. i would say the decision they made was very , very hard for them to make.

tatcat2000
09-12-2013, 10:43 PM
As I mentioned, I'm really familiar with the rules regarding team formation. The rule states that TWO players MUST be from the original team. The rest of the team can be any sanctioned players from the SAME league operators SYSTEM...

The following information may or may not be relevant to the situation, but a few slight clarifications is are order here:

The actual words used are "same league". You have added the word "system", which does not appear in the literature you drew the information from, and which may cause confusion. In fact, if by "system" you mean multiple leagues with discrete BCAPL numbers operated by the same League operator, then in the Mixed/Open division a player from a differently numbered league is not eligible.

The definitive document is not the "league policies" tab of the website, but rather the Tournament Regulations for the BCAPL Nationals, which are also available for download from the BCAPL website. They are more specific. The eligibility chart in tournament regulation E-5-5-c specifies in the footnotes:

“Same league" means the same distinctly numbered BCAPL league. Multiple numbered leagues operated by the same League Operator are not considered as the same league.

Again, I don't know if that is applicable to the situation here. I just wanted to clarify that the information quoted earlier was not complete.

Buddy

Azsandshark
09-13-2013, 01:46 AM
"lorider;4347900mr stuckart in his letter stated a lot of people were out to get him. mr stock in his 1st post even stated he knew the op and others in the area did not like mr stuckart."

Bill S never mentioned an Operator in this statement earlier in the post, he said "Shame on you Tres! I know that you and others are generally against Jerry to begin with." All the people that were later attacked in a post by JS had multiple people post here and attest to their long standing character in this billiard community. Noone is out to get him, his players simply said, "This is wrong"!

"lorider;4347900is it even plausible for the op and apparently a lot of other people in that area to get together and make up a story claiming mr stuckart knowingly played some one who was not eligible? then mr stuckart admits he did that but it was a clerical error ?"

LOL, plausible! He he he. Let me say again, I had NOTHING to do with this. The operators own players came forward in Las Vegas and brought this out. MANY players. I run a separate league, played on a fun team at the Nationals, and was on vacation enjoying myself. We are not competitors. If I had a competitor here in Phx it would be the APA but they are not. The couple (Doug and Gina) that run their league in Phx are outstanding at what they do, bring a ton of new players into the sport and have a huge and successful league. Most of all, they are respected by everybody. They are friends of mine and I respect them both.

lorider
09-13-2013, 06:01 AM
"lorider;4347900mr stuckart in his letter stated a lot of people were out to get him. mr stock in his 1st post even stated he knew the op and others in the area did not like mr stuckart."

Bill S never mentioned an Operator in this statement earlier in the post, he said "Shame on you Tres! I know that you and others are generally against Jerry to begin with." All the people that were later attacked in a post by JS had multiple people post here and attest to their long standing character in this billiard community. Noone is out to get him, his players simply said, "This is wrong"!

"lorider;4347900is it even plausible for the op and apparently a lot of other people in that area to get together and make up a story claiming mr stuckart knowingly played some one who was not eligible? then mr stuckart admits he did that but it was a clerical error ?"

LOL, plausible! He he he. Let me say again, I had NOTHING to do with this. The operators own players came forward in Las Vegas and brought this out. MANY players. I run a separate league, played on a fun team at the Nationals, and was on vacation enjoying myself. We are not competitors. If I had a competitor here in Phx it would be the APA but they are not. The couple (Doug and Gina) that run their league in Phx are outstanding at what they do, bring a ton of new players into the sport and have a huge and successful league. Most of all, they are respected by everybody. They are friends of mine and I respect them both.

i think it is safe to assume the jerry the op complained about and the jerry mr. stock mentioned are one and the same.

i dont doubt the character of you , the op, roger long, or az house pro at all. at for the plausability comment . i wa just throwing that at the wall to see if it stuck....it dont ok ?

i do not know who the all mr stock talked to before the decision was made. apparently not you, mr long az house pro or others who have come forward on here .

one thing mr griffin is correct about is you have to make a decision on facts, not heresy.

the heresy is several people state the player did not play at all. the fact is records do show he played. now somewhere in between is the truth.

i can see where a light sentence was handed down in this situation. i think everybody can agree mr stuckart pulled a fast one here but the bottom line is without proof what do you do ?

Roger Long
09-13-2013, 09:24 AM
i think it is safe to assume the jerry the op complained about and the jerry mr. stock mentioned are one and the same.

i dont doubt the character of you , the op, roger long, or az house pro at all. at for the plausability comment . i wa just throwing that at the wall to see if it stuck....it dont ok ?

i do not know who the all mr stock talked to before the decision was made. apparently not you, mr long az house pro or others who have come forward on here .

one thing mr griffin is correct about is you have to make a decision on facts, not heresy.

the heresy is several people state the player did not play at all. the fact is records do show he played. now somewhere in between is the truth.

i can see where a light sentence was handed down in this situation. i think everybody can agree mr stuckart pulled a fast one here but the bottom line is without proof what do you do ?

You're absolutely right with that, lorider. I think the BCAPL did all they could do based on the information they had to go on. The fact that there are qualifying stats shown online for John P is all of the actual proof that exists. But if John P was to testify that those were not his stats, and John W was to testify that they were actually his stats, then those testimonies would negate that former "proof."

When my team had our experience in Jerry's league, we all knew that the player used against us in the playoffs had been listed all season as a regular on the 1st place team, and never once was listed as a "house sub" at the bottom of the standings with the rest of the actual house subs. After protesting that player's use on Jerry's team, we went back online and found that the player's name had been added to the list of house subs. There were never any hard copies of the standings issued, so proof of our claim was forever gone. All we could do was walk away.

This most-recent incident is very unfortunate, not only for the BCAPL, but for all of pool. It comes at a time when we are all struggling to keep our sport alive and healthy. This incident, along with those from other amateur and pro leagues, are distractions that take us all away from doing just that. This particular incident is a bad one for me because it adversely affects so many good pool people in my immediate area.

I'll finish with this: I honestly think that Mark Griffin and Bill Stock have handled this matter in the best way possible. I think the BCAPL is still the best league system for me. CSI is doing great things for our sport, and I want to continue being one of their players.

Roger Long

Lonestar_jim
09-13-2013, 10:03 AM
Roger,

What is the purpose for the ratings committee in AZ. Tournaments only ? There are a lot of gradients from what I've seen posted (9 or 10). A friend of mine who ran a good tournament had about 6 ranks, which seemed about right to me. Thanks.

Jim

Roger Long
09-13-2013, 10:55 AM
Roger,

What is the purpose for the ratings committee in AZ. Tournaments only ? There are a lot of gradients from what I've seen posted (9 or 10). A friend of mine who ran a good tournament had about 6 ranks, which seemed about right to me. Thanks.

Jim

Basically, yes, the AZ ratings were developed over 20 years ago and were first developed for use in 9-ball tournaments. Since then, there have been a several changes in the rating structure, and also in the way they are used in tournaments. Their biggest use these days are in scotch-doubles tournaments that have a cap on the combined rating that the teams can use. There are still some singles tournaments around that use the ratings to determine games-on-the-wire handicaps, but not very many.

The difficult thing here is that the BCAPL accepts AZ ratings in determining if an Arizona player should be classified as Open, Advanced, or Master in BCAPL events. This really get sticky sometimes because many people on the ratings committee are also active players in BCAPL pool leagues and BCAPL events.

Roger

thebark
09-13-2013, 12:23 PM
Lorider says " the heresy ( I believe he meant hearsay) is the league members who say John P. didn't play and the records that say he did. The truth lies somewhere in between."

If his bank told him that his checking account was empty and it was only his hearsay that he thought there was still $2000, would the answer lie somewhere in the middle? only they control the access to the records and only Jerry controlled access to the league computer and therefore the record.

The FACT is John P. never played in that league and the records were deliberately forged to make it appear he did. If you want records get John P.'s time cards from the restaurant that he worked every Wednesday night that the league played. The rest of the story is plausible deniability to mitigate the seriousness of the League Operator's actions.

The BCAPL has made their ruling. Jerry has apologized in print to the Arizona Pool Community. There was blood.

But please don't confuse the facts.

BRKNRUN
09-13-2013, 06:21 PM
There was blood


LOL!....There was blood....LOL...Good thing there was a Fireman in da house to hose that chit down!....errrrr well retired anyway...

I think they need to review my stats...I think someone forgot a circle a couple times...I should have had 23 ROs!!!!!

Now you see why I am so anti-social and just on the phone looking at (Smoking) Meat Porn all the time.;);).....Goose

lorider
09-13-2013, 08:21 PM
Lorider says " the heresy ( I believe he meant hearsay) is the league members who say John P. didn't play and the records that say he did. The truth lies somewhere in between."

If his bank told him that his checking account was empty and it was only his hearsay that he thought there was still $2000, would the answer lie somewhere in the middle? only they control the access to the records and only Jerry controlled access to the league computer and therefore the record.

The FACT is John P. never played in that league and the records were deliberately forged to make it appear he did. If you want records get John P.'s time cards from the restaurant that he worked every Wednesday night that the league played. The rest of the story is plausible deniability to mitigate the seriousness of the League Operator's actions.

The BCAPL has made their ruling. Jerry has apologized in print to the Arizona Pool Community. There was blood.

But please don't confuse the facts.

tres, may i call you tres? thanks for pointing out my spelling error. yes i meant hearsay.

when you quote a few sentences please quote all of the sentence so it will not be taken out of context.. yes i did state that what the players said was hearsay, which is what mr griffin was alluding to. the next sentence i stated it was a "Fact" that the team standings showed john p playing 14 matches. so somewhere in between those 2 sentences is the truth. i hope that makes better sense to you.

you just mentioned something mighty interesting, john p works on wed nights. that is the 1st time it is mentioned in this thread. kinda hard to be in 2 places at the same time huh ?

as far as anybody looking at his time sheets i really doubt that will happen. heck cops cant even do that without a warrant.

it appears you were fixated on a couple of sentences and ignored the rest of my post.
did you bother reading where i said i thought he was guilty ? but i dont know that for a fact , so no i am not confusing facts with what i believe happened. i hope you now understand the difference.

mr long stated jerry pulled the same stunt against his team 3 years ago , i believe him just like i believe you but as mr. long also stated he had no evidence and so far it appears you do not either.

i would really like to see someone come up with facts as mr griffin asked for and see this lo get his just dues.

lorider
09-13-2013, 09:37 PM
You're absolutely right with that, lorider. I think the BCAPL did all they could do based on the information they had to go on. The fact that there are qualifying stats shown online for John P is all of the actual proof that exists. But if John P was to testify that those were not his stats, and John W was to testify that they were actually his stats, then those testimonies would negate that former "proof."

When my team had our experience in Jerry's league, we all knew that the player used against us in the playoffs had been listed all season as a regular on the 1st place team, and never once was listed as a "house sub" at the bottom of the standings with the rest of the actual house subs. After protesting that player's use on Jerry's team, we went back online and found that the player's name had been added to the list of house subs. There were never any hard copies of the standings issued, so proof of our claim was forever gone. All we could do was walk away.

This most-recent incident is very unfortunate, not only for the BCAPL, but for all of pool. It comes at a time when we are all struggling to keep our sport alive and healthy. This incident, along with those from other amateur and pro leagues, are distractions that take us all away from doing just that. This particular incident is a bad one for me because it adversely affects so many good pool people in my immediate area.

I'll finish with this: I honestly think that Mark Griffin and Bill Stock have handled this matter in the best way possible. I think the BCAPL is still the best league system for me. CSI is doing great things for our sport, and I want to continue being one of their players.

Roger Long

i forgot to mention last time i replied to your post that i also think csi and mr griffin have done great things for the pool community.

as i stated earlier in this thread though i think bcapl should change their rule allowing lo's to play on teams. at the national level particularly. it would negate the monetary incentive for lo's to pull such stunts as jerry apparently has.

take apa for example. lo's are allowed to play on teams at the local level only. i think it is great for a lo to play at the local , it gives him a chance to mingle and play with and against a lot of his league members. that way it gives every one a chance to get to know him on a more personal level than being just a business man only interested in collecting your fees every week. i have played on the same team as our lo a couple of times and enjoyed it very much.

but the lo is forbidden to play on a team once the regular session is over. he is not allowed to play in any playoffs, tri cups , cities or at the national level. that removes any monetary incentive to see any team he played on advance in any playoff picture once the regular session is over.

i think if bcapl had such a rule there would be no need for this thread to even exist.

CantEverWin
09-14-2013, 02:51 AM
Can people please learn what hearsay is?
A witness to an event stating what they saw is not hearsay.

On another note, I have no side here as I do not know anyone in the situation.

However, someone not remembering a person being somewhere is not proof that the person was not there.
It is really tough to prove a negative. If someone recalled seeing a person in a bar, that would be strong evidence that person was in the bar. However, if a person doesn't recall seeing someone in a bar, that evidence is extremely weak that they were not in the bar.
As humans we just miss so much more than we take in.

CantEverWin
09-14-2013, 03:09 AM
After reading this thread I have come to realize why the APA has "more" people breaking and being scandalous than the bca. It seems like the bca pretty much lets you do whatever you want. Seems like you can pretty much add whomever you want to your roster whenever you like.
What the hell is the thought behind a "house sub?"
As long as you have 2 "core players" you can add whoever you want?
I could just imagine the 49ers when going to the Super Bowl adding Adrian Peterson, and megatron to their team.
I guess I do get the concept though. People don't need to break rules, if the rules let you pretty much do what you want anyhow.

lorider
09-14-2013, 04:15 AM
Can people please learn what hearsay is?
A witness to an event stating what they saw is not hearsay.

On another note, I have no side here as I do not know anyone in the situation.

However, someone not remembering a person being somewhere is not proof that the person was not there.
It is really tough to prove a negative. If someone recalled seeing a person in a bar, that would be strong evidence that person was in the bar. However, if a person doesn't recall seeing someone in a bar, that evidence is extremely weak that they were not in the bar.
As humans we just miss so much more than we take in.

you are correct i was using the term rather loosely. after learning the definition it seems as though i used it correctly when i stated the op heard from friends that an unqualified player was on a team. once the op relayed the what he heard to mr stock his testimony could be used to substatiate what the witnesses saw as a fact..

thanks for the correction :thumbup:

lorider
09-14-2013, 04:17 AM
After reading this thread I have come to realize why the APA has "more" people breaking and being scandalous than the bca. It seems like the bca pretty much lets you do whatever you want. Seems like you can pretty much add whomever you want to your roster whenever you like.
What the hell is the thought behind a "house sub?"
As long as you have 2 "core players" you can add whoever you want?
I could just imagine the 49ers when going to the Super Bowl adding Adrian Peterson, and megatron to their team.
I guess I do get the concept though. People don't need to break rules, if the rules let you pretty much do what you want anyhow.

that is what i have said several times on this forum but you broke it down on a point by point basis better than i ever did. thumbs up to you.

justadub
09-14-2013, 05:05 AM
that is what i have said several times on this forum but you broke it down on a point by point basis better than i ever did. thumbs up to you.

Yeah, I'm going to tri cup tomorrow with only 4 players (due to prior commitments for the other 4 team members).....can I get a house sub?

:p

Nope.

Sorry, don't really mean to derail. It just struck me as funny.

I always respect how Mark and his people handle things. It appears that this isn't as cut and dried as some may think, and its always tough to sort the truth from the rest.

That having been said, it seems to me that the simplest answer is to ask the captains of the teams that played against the LO's team during that session. I would think that they would know if this John P played or not. From what I've read, he appears to be a known entity there.

Maybe it ain't that simple. But I can certainly tell you if someone played against my team or not.

Maniac
09-14-2013, 07:07 AM
as i stated earlier in this thread though i think bcapl should change their rule allowing lo's to play on teams. at the national level particularly. it would negate the monetary incentive for lo's to pull such stunts as jerry apparently has.

take apa for example. lo's are allowed to play on teams at the local level only. i think it is great for a lo to play at the local , it gives him a chance to mingle and play with and against a lot of his league members. that way it gives every one a chance to get to know him on a more personal level than being just a business man only interested in collecting your fees every week. i have played on the same team as our lo a couple of times and enjoyed it very much.

but the lo is forbidden to play on a team once the regular session is over. he is not allowed to play in any playoffs, tri cups , cities or at the national level. that removes any monetary incentive to see any team he played on advance in any playoff picture once the regular session is over.


lorider,

I usually agree with much of your postings, but this is one subject that I cannot, through personal experience, agree on. I do not think LO's in any league system (BCA, APA, etc.) should be allowed to play on a team in their OWN league structure, not even during the regular session. I've seen more than once a LO playing on a team that had questionable things happen for players on his/her team that were beneficial for their teams. It wouldn't matter by the time playoffs came around that the LO couldn't play in them because the damage would have ALREADY been done. As far as "mingling" with other players, well, they should be doing that anyway, whether they play of not. You state that you played on a team with your LO and enjoyed it very much. Well that's all well and good because you apparently have an honest LO. I've been around a couple, one was just plain dishonest and the other did some things that were highly questionable, and they did things FOR their team. This disgusted me to the point of not playing in those leagues anymore. This is why I do not feel it appropriate to allow LO's to play within their own league system.

Shoot 'em well, my friend!!!

Maniac

Mickey Qualls
09-14-2013, 08:24 AM
... I've seen more than once a LO playing on a team that had questionable things happen for players on his/her team that were beneficial for their teams. It wouldn't matter by the time playoffs came around that the LO couldn't play in them because the damage would have ALREADY been done.

... I've been around a couple, one was just plain dishonest and the other did some things that were highly questionable, and they did things FOR their team. This disgusted me to the point of not playing in those leagues anymore. This is why I do not feel it appropriate to allow LO's to play within their own league system.

Shoot 'em well, my friend!!!

Maniac

Much respect, Maniac...

Define questionable.

There was a BCA league where I used to live, that the handicap formula was simple. Balls made divided by games played equaled your average.
(For those unfamiliar with BCA 8-Ball, each ball worth a point, the 8 is worth three points. So if a player had a 'ball count' of 354 over the course of 48 games, 354 divided by 48 equals 7.37. Which would translate to a 7.5 average).

Then one of the LO's got the 'bright idea' (after having been beaten by a first year team that was ranked appropriately, in my opinion) of factoring a certain percentage of your OPPONENT'S balls into the average formula.
(I felt they were ranked appropriately because both times WE played that team (double elimination playoffs), each match went to the final game. Basically, the LO's team didn't 'show up' table-wise, got slaughtered, and couldn't mentally accept the loss).

Now, the 'science' or 'dark art' of this new handicap system has never been explained correctly by any of the LO's. One tells me that the system takes your last 25 games history. Another tells me it's 'lifetime' (since the inception of the 'new' handicap system).
Coincidentally, since the implementation of the new system, save for one season. the LO's teams has consistently won the division. Hmm... :rolleyes:

That's my definition of "questionable".

I mean, if there's a transparent handicap system in place, that's easy to understand, then I (personally) don't see a problem with an LO playing on a team.

So are talking about 'bad calls' kind of stuff ??

Mickey <--- Knows Mickey went on a rant, but is curious about Maniac's statement...

lorider
09-14-2013, 10:23 AM
lorider,

I usually agree with much of your postings, but this is one subject that I cannot, through personal experience, agree on. I do not think LO's in any league system (BCA, APA, etc.) should be allowed to play on a team in their OWN league structure, not even during the regular session. I've seen more than once a LO playing on a team that had questionable things happen for players on his/her team that were beneficial for their teams. It wouldn't matter by the time playoffs came around that the LO couldn't play in them because the damage would have ALREADY been done. As far as "mingling" with other players, well, they should be doing that anyway, whether they play of not. You state that you played on a team with your LO and enjoyed it very much. Well that's all well and good because you apparently have an honest LO. I've been around a couple, one was just plain dishonest and the other did some things that were highly questionable, and they did things FOR their team. This disgusted me to the point of not playing in those leagues anymore. This is why I do not feel it appropriate to allow LO's to play within their own league system.

Shoot 'em well, my friend!!!

Maniac

i have thought about the angle of an lo helping his team through the regular session get to the playoffs. i tend to agree with your viewpoint. but here is another angle. once that team makes it to the playoffs they are on their own. if they can make it thru the playoffs, tri cups and cities on their own then they obviously did not need any help from him during the regular season.

you said i apparently have an honest lo . yea he is honest all right. he raised one of our players on his team in the middle of tri cups where we could not field our best players. i asked wth was up with that ? he said the players stats raised him . simple enough huh?

like you said it all boils down to having an honest lo. i just think rules barring any lo from having monetary incentive to help any team advancing in tournaments " especially one he plays on " would help eliminate situations such as what happened with jerrys team. apparently bcapl does not have any such rules in place.

lorider
09-14-2013, 10:34 AM
Much respect, Maniac...

Define questionable.

There was a BCA league where I used to live, that the handicap formula was simple. Balls made divided by games played equaled your average.
(For those unfamiliar with BCA 8-Ball, each ball worth a point, the 8 is worth three points. So if a player had a 'ball count' of 354 over the course of 48 games, 354 divided by 48 equals 7.37. Which would translate to a 7.5 average).

Then one of the LO's got the 'bright idea' (after having been beaten by a first year team that was ranked appropriately, in my opinion) of factoring a certain percentage of your OPPONENT'S balls into the average formula.
(I felt they were ranked appropriately because both times WE played that team (double elimination playoffs), each match went to the final game. Basically, the LO's team didn't 'show up' table-wise, got slaughtered, and couldn't mentally accept the loss).

Now, the 'science' or 'dark art' of this new handicap system has never been explained correctly by any of the LO's. One tells me that the system takes your last 25 games history. Another tells me it's 'lifetime' (since the inception of the 'new' handicap system).
Coincidentally, since the implementation of the new system, save for one season. the LO's teams has consistently won the division. Hmm... :rolleyes:

That's my definition of "questionable".

I mean, if there's a transparent handicap system in place, that's easy to understand, then I (personally) don't see a problem with an LO playing on a team.

So are talking about 'bad calls' kind of stuff ??

Mickey <--- Knows Mickey went on a rant, but is curious about Maniac's statement...

the fault in the situation you describe falls squarely on the shoulders of the national office. if lo's were not arbitrarily allowed to run their leagues as they please this situation would not come up.

again it all boils down to having an honest lo.

i have played bcapl, apa , napa, a traveling money league and an in house money league. the only dis honest lo i have encountered so far happened to be in bcapl.
imagine that !

Maniac
09-14-2013, 01:35 PM
Much respect, Maniac...

Define questionable.

So are talking about 'bad calls' kind of stuff ??

Mickey <--- Knows Mickey went on a rant, but is curious about Maniac's statement...

Mickey,

Really, I'm sorry I even posted on this thread, at least this portion of it where we are discussing LO's and their actions. I have quietly dropped out of APA leagues and have mentally "let go" of any bad experiences I had with them and simply moved on. So, honestly and sincerely, I do not want to dredge up old news, pick the scab off of a healing wound, so-to-speak.

Again, I'm sorry for my lack of answering your question. I hope you understand.

Maniac

frankncali
09-14-2013, 03:04 PM
I am guessing that the LO changed records from earlier in the year rather than later.

If not or even still why not just asked all the other players in the league and see what they say.

I am guessing that John P has lied and said he played. If not what they heck is going on with the ruling. A LO knowingly cheats and he is still a part of the organization. Doesnt make sense.

Only reason I wonder is because someone stated that Jerry had to make an apology. What did he apologize for? Sorry for cheating and being everything I am supposed to stand and guard against.

Whole thing seems odd to me... but hey I am sure there is worse done in both leagues. Heck might even be a thing called a ghost league

Johnnyt
09-14-2013, 04:02 PM
How much money are we talking about for the winning team at nationals? Johnyt

cardiac kid
09-14-2013, 07:09 PM
How much money are we talking about for the winning team at nationals? Johnyt

12K for first. 8K for second. Down a K each from 2012.

Lyn

Johnnyt
09-14-2013, 07:15 PM
12K for first. 8K for second. Down a K each from 2012.

Lyn

In this day of lawsuits someone is going to see a crime here. Johnnyt

dom_poppa
09-14-2013, 08:04 PM
I know some lawyers in AZ and if anyone wants to file a lawsuit, let me know. This is fraud. You guys can contact the FBI in your local area and gather witnesses to this John Doe or John P.

It's one thing to have accounting errors and it's another thing when league players have never seen a guy play before.

You can sue the league or you can sue the individual separately.

dom_poppa
09-14-2013, 08:11 PM
12K for first. 8K for second. Down a K each from 2012.

Lyn

Definitely enough money for federal trial. It spread across the state and de-frauded 6000 players. Federal prison, 3 years in jail, 1 year max for good behavior.

Maybe you guys can get all 6000 players aware of the situation and file a class action suit.

Lonestar_jim
09-15-2013, 11:41 AM
Basically, yes, the AZ ratings were developed over 20 years ago and were first developed for use in 9-ball tournaments. Since then, there have been a several changes in the rating structure, and also in the way they are used in tournaments. Their biggest use these days are in scotch-doubles tournaments that have a cap on the combined rating that the teams can use. There are still some singles tournaments around that use the ratings to determine games-on-the-wire handicaps, but not very many.

The difficult thing here is that the BCAPL accepts AZ ratings in determining if an Arizona player should be classified as Open, Advanced, or Master in BCAPL events. This really get sticky sometimes because many people on the ratings committee are also active players in BCAPL pool leagues and BCAPL events.

Roger

Thanks for the reply Roger. So for states without an agreement with BCAPL, the normal way to determine open, advanced and master levels is through performance. Who proposed using the list to determine skill level (AZ or BCAPL)? And I understand that the player committee with the organization can use discretion to assign skill level based on known ability regardless of where the player is from. :wink:

Roger Long
09-15-2013, 01:04 PM
Thanks for the reply Roger. So for states without an agreement with BCAPL, the normal way to determine open, advanced and master levels is through performance. Who proposed using the list to determine skill level (AZ or BCAPL)? And I understand that the player committee with the organization can use discretion to assign skill level based on known ability regardless of where the player is from. :wink:

I'm sorry, Jim, but I don't really know the answer to that question. I do know that the BCAPL had to have some way of classifying players between Open, Advanced, Master, and Grand Master when they came up with the new divisions a few years ago, and Arizona's tournament rating system seemed to offer them a convenient way of doing that with the Arizona BCAPL players. But I've often wondered how they handle it with players from other states. That's probably none of my business, though. :smile:

Roger