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Johnnyt
09-11-2013, 07:01 AM
I bet there are a dozen players with home tables that work 40-60 hours a week that can't get off work or can't afford to play in tournaments. If they did they could become pros in a very short time. Johnnyt

realkingcobra
09-11-2013, 07:09 AM
I bet there are a dozen players with home tables that work 40-60 hours a week that can't get off work or can't afford to play in tournaments. If they did they could become pros in a very short time. Johnnyt

Define the requirements of a "Pro"...is there a test or something that needs to be passed first in order to be considered a "Pro"?

DallasHopps
09-11-2013, 07:32 AM
Define the requirements of a "Pro"...is there a test or something that needs to be passed first in order to be considered a "Pro"?

When Johnny Archer was advertising/soliciting memberships for the ABP, I thought about buying the more expensive "Pro" membership... Just for my résumé and whatnot.

I can't beat ANYONE... probably not even Geno's new protege before she took lessons... but for something like $125 IIRC, I could've been O-fficial.

How sweet would it be to get selected for a job because, all qualifications and experience being equal, you stood out by listing "Professional Pool Player" among your interests?

voiceofreason
09-11-2013, 07:37 AM
"Talent is a common thing, it is wasted every day"

We all know this.

But there are interesting comments made by Appleton during his recent interview with Ted Lerner that I think quite neatly cover the differences between professionals and amateurs, especially when it comes to pressure:


http://www.pro9.co.uk/html/article.php?sid=2323

Johnnyt
09-11-2013, 07:39 AM
Define the requirements of a "Pro"...is there a test or something that needs to be passed first in order to be considered a "Pro"?

Is there a test that makes you a furniture put together pro?

briankenobi
09-11-2013, 07:41 AM
If I didn't work,and could play/practice as much as I would like to, I could probably match up with just about anyone, but gotta work. Besides, not an easy life being a "pro pool player." Being good at a hobby and playing locally with a few trick shot shows a year is enough for me. :)

Maniac
09-11-2013, 07:41 AM
Define the requirements of a "Pro"...is there a test or something that needs to be passed first in order to be considered a "Pro"?

Do you consider yourself to be a "professional" table mechanic?

If so, you should already know the requirements for being called a "Pro" :wink:!!!

Maniac (professional napper, and I KNOW why :D)

Tobermory
09-11-2013, 08:05 AM
Dear Johnny T.,

Check out the poem "Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard," written by Thomas Gray. There is a wonderful passage in it on the subject of people who are born in obscurity and kept in that obscurity by the forces of life. It's around the part where Hampden (a general), Milton, and Cromwell are mentioned in the poem.

Johnnyt
09-11-2013, 08:11 AM
I will look for it online, but I'm really not a poem reading kind of guy. Probably why I always picked up the kind of women I did. Johnnyt

bdorman
09-11-2013, 08:14 AM
I bet there are a dozen players with home tables that work 40-60 hours a week that can't get off work or can't afford to play in tournaments. If they did they could become pros in a very short time. Johnnyt

And their net take-home-pay after expenses would be ??? Probably less than they currently make in a month.

I'll bet there are thousands of people who could play at a pro level in a short time, but they've never even held a cue. There's a lot of magnificent, raw talent in the world that never finds its calling.

Johnnyt
09-11-2013, 08:15 AM
And their net take-home-pay after expenses would be ??? Probably less than they currently make in a month.

I'll bet there are thousands of people who could play at a pro level in a short time, but they've never even held a cue. There's a lot of magnificent, raw talent in the world that never finds its calling.

Very true statement. Johnnyt

MitchAlsup
09-11-2013, 08:53 AM
<snip>...is there a test or something that needs to be passed first in order to be considered a "Pro"?

Yes, you must make more than 50% of all you income from playing tournament pool for a whole year after subtracting out expenses.

one stroke
09-11-2013, 09:28 AM
I would say if there's ever any real money in pool there won't be too many Americans in the top tier


1

pt109
09-11-2013, 10:36 AM
I bet there are a dozen players with home tables that work 40-60 hours a week that can't get off work or can't afford to play in tournaments. If they did they could become pros in a very short time. Johnnyt

I'm gonna raise you on this one, Johnny.....
...I think there are HUNDREDS that have pro ability.....
...if pool was a viable career like golf.

I've seen a lot of potential over the years.
Saw a young man in a small town in Arkansas (mid 80s) he hit the ball
as sweet as the Miz...I offered to take him on the road....but he was
newly married and a recent father.

Jude Rosenstock
09-11-2013, 10:59 AM
I bet there are a dozen players with home tables that work 40-60 hours a week that can't get off work or can't afford to play in tournaments. If they did they could become pros in a very short time. Johnnyt

It's more than a few dozen, I'm sure. There are guys out there nobody has ever heard of that can be world beaters. The biggest stand-out in my mind is a room owner in Long Island who plays all the games great. I've seen him run 100s on 4" pockets, run racks in 1-pocket and run 10s in 3-cushion. He did stuff with the cueball I never see anybody do and I see some pretty sporty players on a regular basis. The problem is, until "pro" means making money, you're always going to have a compromised field.

poolguy4u
09-11-2013, 11:14 AM
I bet there are a dozen players with home tables that work 40-60 hours a week that can't get off work or can't afford to play in tournaments. If they did they could become pros in a very short time. Johnnyt

:frown:

If gas was still 29cents a gallon and rooms were $19 per night you'd see lot's of pro players coming out of the woodwork.

It's a darn shame when pro players have to rely on food stamps and free health insurance.:smile:

Joe T
09-11-2013, 11:16 AM
I'm gonna raise you on this one, Johnny.....
...I think there are HUNDREDS that have pro ability.....
...if pool was a viable career like golf.

I've seen a lot of potential over the years.
Saw a young man in a small town in Arkansas (mid 80s) he hit the ball
as sweet as the Miz...I offered to take him on the road....but he was
newly married and a recent father.
I'm going to call that raise as I believe there are at least hundreds that could qualify with a pro type speed and this is MAIN reason the American Billiard Club organization was founded. We want people that have chosen to live a sensible life but also posses a high level of skill and passion for our sport to be able to compete nationally while they are tending to career & family.
We might not promise to make them rich but we sure as hell won't bust them either, lol
1 match per week for 7 weeks
1 1day regional event
1 2day national event with minimum $1,000 paid spot to every player.

poolguppy
09-11-2013, 11:18 AM
I bet there are a dozen players with home tables that work 40-60 hours a week that can't get off work or can't afford to play in tournaments. If they did they could become pros in a very short time. Johnnyt

Absolutely, even in my small town of Cascade Locks there was an older guy that went by gentlemen jim, only way to beat him was to run the table, guy played a steady slow game and seemed to never miss, never even had to make tough shots either because he always got his leave, but who knows how he would do in the tough shots when another good player pulled some safeties. I think he had won some tourneys though

pt109
09-11-2013, 11:49 AM
I'm going to call that raise as I believe there are at least hundreds that could qualify with a pro type speed and this is MAIN reason the American Billiard Club organization was founded. We want people that have chosen to live a sensible life but also posses a high level of skill and passion for our sport to be able to compete nationally while they are tending to career & family.
We might not promise to make them rich but we sure as hell won't bust them either, lol
1 match per week for 7 weeks
1 1day regional event
1 2day national event with minimum $1,000 paid spot to every player.

Good for you, Joe...we need more people like you for this game.

pt..who knows you as the Rhode player...:smile:

Ron Swanson
09-11-2013, 12:17 PM
I bet there are a dozen players with home tables that work 40-60 hours a week that can't get off work or can't afford to play in tournaments. If they did they could become pros in a very short time. Johnnyt

Sorry, but I don't buy this line of reasoning at all.

Playing pool is bloody difficult. If you were ever going to be pro, you'd already be pro. Improvement is glacial for all but the most talented. The further you go, the harder it is. It's too easy to fall into the trap of thinking you'll continue to improve for ever.

realkingcobra
09-11-2013, 01:07 PM
Is there a test that makes you a furniture put together pro?

No, that's an installer, I'm way beyond that level;)

book collector
09-11-2013, 01:29 PM
Howard Vickery was a "Pro" player , traveled the tour for several years, he won a couple of state championships and I believe he won 1or 2 minor tour stops.
He would be considered one of the bottom players at any major tournament within the pro ranks. So if you use him as the benchmark , yes there are probably a e hundred people or more that could be pros.
They would be sleeping in someones car at night and not eating much but they could be there.
Also they would have to be using slugs at the car wash to get entry fee money.
That guy from Italy that does trick shots and Jesse Allred are 2 of the most talented basement players I ever saw, I don't think either one of them can make a living on the tour.
It's great to fantasize about hidden players but the truth is , lots of people play great practicing or playing lambs , but when they play a real player , their game goes way down.
The big reasons are that they don't get as many shots and when they do get one , it is usually tough.
Pros have great ability, confidence and mental toughness, they have seen the best and everyone else looks easy.
Very hard to overcome for Joe working man.
As far as great working players the list has some ringers on it, I know several who did not start working until after they were great players, or their dad owned a business they "worked at" , whenever they weren't playing pool, Is that the same thing?

Joe T
09-11-2013, 01:48 PM
If it were more sensible to be a dedicated pro or aspiring pro the talent pool would be very deep.

spktur
09-11-2013, 01:51 PM
:frown:

If gas was still 29cents a gallon and rooms were $19 per night you'd see lot's of pro players coming out of the woodwork.

It's a darn shame when pro players have to rely on food stamps and free health insurance.:smile:

I was there for 29 cent gas and 19 dollar rooms. The problem was I had a pretty good job at the time for just over 3 dollars an hour too. The money wasn't flowing on either side at the time.

Jude Rosenstock
09-11-2013, 01:57 PM
If it were more sensible to be a dedicated pro or aspiring pro the talent pool would be very deep.

That wraps-up this entire thread very neatly. In fact, I think it's even more evident among women. Many women I know that play B-speed and above have quit to start families. Now, that may not sound like much but you have to remember that many current WPBA touring professionals are about B-speed and better. If qualifying for the WPBA meant winning your region, it would undoubtedly raise the bar for the WPBA to A or better.

jay helfert
09-11-2013, 02:06 PM
If there were million dollar tournaments on a regular basis, playing professional pool would be a logical career choice for many athletic young men. Until that happens pool will remain dominated by men from countries like the Philippines where $10,000 is still a large amount of money and ex snooker players who couldn't quite cut it and the rare young man who gets hooked on the game at a young age, usually by a parent who also plays pool (like Shane).

The IPT in it's brief existence started to bring a lot of good players out of the woodwork. If it had survived a few years, then I'm certain we would have seen many great young players coming up in the game.

JumpinJoe
09-11-2013, 08:55 PM
Howard Vickery was a "Pro" player , traveled the tour for several years, he won a couple of state championships and I believe he won 1or 2 minor tour stops.
He would be considered one of the bottom players at any major tournament within the pro ranks. So if you use him as the benchmark , yes there are probably a e hundred people or more that could be pros.
They would be sleeping in someones car at night and not eating much but they could be there.
Also they would have to be using slugs at the car wash to get entry fee money.
That guy from Italy that does trick shots and Jesse Allred are 2 of the most talented basement players I ever saw, I don't think either one of them can make a living on the tour.
It's great to fantasize about hidden players but the truth is , lots of people play great practicing or playing lambs , but when they play a real player , their game goes way down.
The big reasons are that they don't get as many shots and when they do get one , it is usually tough.
Pros have great ability, confidence and mental toughness, they have seen the best and everyone else looks easy.
Very hard to overcome for Joe working man.
As far as great working players the list has some ringers on it, I know several who did not start working until after they were great players, or their dad owned a business they "worked at" , whenever they weren't playing pool, Is that the same thing?

Donny Mills is at or very close to the top of this list, NO DOUBT.
I don't know if anyone playing pro speed at his level has run a buisness since their teen years and played as well as him.

Sloppy Pockets
09-11-2013, 09:01 PM
Dear Johnny T.,

Check out the poem "Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard," written by Thomas Gray. There is a wonderful passage in it on the subject of people who are born in obscurity and kept in that obscurity by the forces of life. It's around the part where Hampden (a general), Milton, and Cromwell are mentioned in the poem.

I can certainly relate to that. I can live with it, though, knowing that every one of us will return to obscurity with the passage of enough time.:cool:

Maniac
09-11-2013, 09:17 PM
I can certainly relate to that. I can live with it, though, knowing that every one of us will return to obscurity with the passage of enough time.:cool:

In a few generations from now, very few will ever know we even existed :(!!!

Maniac

iusedtoberich
09-11-2013, 09:27 PM
I think it comes down to numbers. Do you cut the line at the top 16 players, 32, 64, etc, to call them pros?

We all say that when you are open speed, you can beat anyone at any time. I think that's a myth, and only good for a short race. That never seems to hold up in pro events. All these local heroes we talk about, when they compete on a national level, usually go 2 and out. I'll give a few examples: Matt Krah. He is a great local player in the PA/NJ/DE area. He wins a few regional stops of the Mezz tour, and he plays in every single one. When he goes to the US Open every year, its usually 2 and out. Same thing for lots of PA players I follow. Lee Holt is another one with pretty much the same track record. These guys are all local superstars, but they are truly many levels below the top guys. Another example is the action match today between Hager and Archer. Archer was spotting him 7 games in a race to 22, and wins 22-9. This is a player that people say can beat anyone on any given day. But when he comes against a top pro, he wins 2 games.

The top 10 guys in the US today would still be the top guys, even if there were monthly million dollar tournaments.

When the IPT was out, it certainly brought players out of retirement and out of the woodwork. But they were more like filler material, finishing in last place. The guys who finished in the top 20 of the IPT events were the regular faces.

So what I think would happen if we had lots of money in pool, is it would be just like the IPT tournament if we had traditional 128 man events. Only 25% of the guys would be a real threat to win. The other 25% or so guys would be expected to cash well. And the remaining 50% of the guys would just be filler, significantly below the level of the rest of the field.

I think what should happen if there was huge money in pool (fantasizing now...) is to separate the 128 players in the above scenario into two tiers. The top tier would only be the best 32 players. Then the rest of the other players (again, fantasy numbers here), would compete to get a spot in the 32. Every year, the bottom 8 of the 32 would be replaced by the top 8 in the second tier.

So only the elite of the elite would be the "pro tour" that we fans would support with viewing. The other guys would be trying to get into that elite field every year.

Shannon.spronk
09-11-2013, 09:54 PM
I don't find this to be any type of revelation at all. I am guessing this holds true for many sports. I mean for some there is most certainly God given talent but there are also just guys that work and work for it. Look at a guy like Shane. Is he at the level he is because he is just naturally good? No he puts in an insane amount of table time and has been doing that for years. Does he have a certain disposition for the game given his family history? Yeah he probably does, but one does not mean much without the other.

Hell I could probably have been a professional Bull Rider, but I was never exposed to that so we will never know. I feel there is alot of natural ability that is probably wasted simply based on a situation someone is born into.

JumpinJoe
09-11-2013, 11:31 PM
There's only 2 elite pro pool players from the u.s nowadays. No matter what anyone wants to think, that's SVB and Archer, and Archer is nearing the end of his reign most likely because of age(few more years). They can play with anyone.

Hatch, Henny, Deuel, Dechaine, Schmidt, JJ, Shuff, Compton, Saez, Mills, Bartram, Morris, Earl, etc., all these guys are great players and some of our best from the u.s. but they are definitely not ELITE on a world scale, as where Archer and SVB fit in anywhere and can in rotation which is the main game hold their own against anyone.

Maniac
09-12-2013, 07:04 AM
I think what should happen if there was huge money in pool (fantasizing now...) is to separate the 128 players in the above scenario into two tiers. The top tier would only be the best 32 players. Then the rest of the other players (again, fantasy numbers here), would compete to get a spot in the 32. Every year, the bottom 8 of the 32 would be replaced by the top 8 in the second tier.

So only the elite of the elite would be the "pro tour" that we fans would support with viewing. The other guys would be trying to get into that elite field every year.

Even fantasizing, that's pretty good thinking :thumbup:. I like this idea. Now, if................

Maniac

JB Cases
09-12-2013, 07:13 AM
There's only 2 elite pro pool players from the u.s nowadays. No matter what anyone wants to think, that's SVB and Archer, and Archer is nearing the end of his reign most likely because of age(few more years). They can play with anyone.

Hatch, Henny, Deuel, Dechaine, Schmidt, JJ, Shuff, Compton, Saez, Mills, Bartram, Morris, Earl, etc., all these guys are great players and some of our best from the u.s. but they are definitely not ELITE on a world scale, as where Archer and SVB fit in anywhere and can in rotation which is the main game hold their own against anyone.

I disagree. A lot of these guys can play as well as anyone they simply don't have the drive and constant challenges that players from other places do. In the Philippine and in Taiwan they are constantly battling even for small stakes and long sets. They do it to stay sharp and preserve the pecking order. But in the USA people are far away from each other, the lifestyle is way different, and the approach to the game is way different.

Also people are flat out nitty and often won't step up to play a pro cheap even getting hefty weight. So pros in the USA rarely have the opportunity to do that sort of training to stay sharp.

I will agree with you that on a technical level a lot of the foreign pros are probably better because they have been willing to put in the time and go wherever they needed to go to get the seasoning.

Darren's staying the Phillipines and gambling for three months comes to mind. The intense training the Chinese and Taiwanese do, these are all things that do play a factor when it comes to performance over time.

A lot of our younger generation players don't seem to have that level of intensity about their own advancement.

Maniac
09-12-2013, 07:25 AM
A lot of our younger generation players don't seem to have that level of intensity about their own advancement.

I'm keeping my eyes open for players like Landon Shuffett (one of a few of American youngsters that seem to be taking the SVB approach to pool). If they rise top the top of pool's food chain someday, it will prove that there are many that could do it, if enough time and effort is given to it.

Maniac

one stroke
09-12-2013, 07:49 AM
There's only 2 elite pro pool players from the u.s nowadays. No matter what anyone wants to think, that's SVB and Archer, and Archer is nearing the end of his reign most likely because of age(few more years). They can play with anyone.

Hatch, Henny, Deuel, Dechaine, Schmidt, JJ, Shuff, Compton, Saez, Mills, Bartram, Morris, Earl, etc., all these guys are great players and some of our best from the u.s. but they are definitely not ELITE on a world scale, as where Archer and SVB fit in anywhere and can in rotation which is the main game hold their own against anyone.

No question. about it , none of these guys except Duel is anywhere near world class , and don't give me they don't play , they play all the time ,
Some people believe anyone can practice enough to play like SVB
That is simply no where near the truth
1

poolguy4u
09-12-2013, 08:04 AM
There's only 2 elite pro pool players from the u.s nowadays. No matter what anyone wants to think, that's SVB and Archer, and Archer is nearing the end of his reign most likely because of age(few more years). They can play with anyone.

Hatch, Henny, Deuel, Dechaine, Schmidt, JJ, Shuff, Compton, Saez, Mills, Bartram, Morris, Earl, etc., all these guys are great players and some of our best from the u.s. but they are definitely not ELITE on a world scale, as where Archer and SVB fit in anywhere and can in rotation which is the main game hold their own against anyone.

:scratchhead:


Hmmm...Earl just beat Shane twice in one tournament. Earl has probably the busiest schedule than any other player. He is on the road almost every week out of the year.

Guess I don't know what Elite is.:smile:

scratchs
09-12-2013, 11:20 AM
Howard Vickery was a "Pro" player , traveled the tour for several years, he won a couple of state championships and I believe he won 1or 2 minor tour stops.
He would be considered one of the bottom players at any major tournament within the pro ranks. So if you use him as the benchmark , yes there are probably a e hundred people or more that could be pros.
They would be sleeping in someones car at night and not eating much but they could be there.
Also they would have to be using slugs at the car wash to get entry fee money.
That guy from Italy that does trick shots and Jesse Allred are 2 of the most talented basement players I ever saw, I don't think either one of them can make a living on the tour.
It's great to fantasize about hidden players but the truth is , lots of people play great practicing or playing lambs , but when they play a real player , their game goes way down.
The big reasons are that they don't get as many shots and when they do get one , it is usually tough.
Pros have great ability, confidence and mental toughness, they have seen the best and everyone else looks easy.
Very hard to overcome for Joe working man.
As far as great working players the list has some ringers on it, I know several who did not start working until after they were great players, or their dad owned a business they "worked at" , whenever they weren't playing pool, Is that the same thing?

Everything you said is valid...There are a lot of poor folks in the world because they haven't funds to go to school. Who's to say if they went to school they'd make it in the real world..not every one will become a world beater.But for those few who try..hey go get it..and I know a few good players that'll say there are hundreds as good if not better then they are..I'll add I don't think there are thousands of top pros out there imo. But like you said..Great players fade into the shadows..I was a master craftman in trade of choice..it took me many years of working an going to school..I never became rich..but working allowed me to play in tourments or travel an play where I wanted to..Think I got lost with what I was trying to say..My main points is..I think mamy could play well givin propper instruction..through practice an tournament play..only if they stick through the tuff beats an learn..The culture that surround pool is rough.
You have many good points..have a good weekend.

JumpinJoe
09-12-2013, 11:28 AM
:scratchhead:


Hmmm...Earl just beat Shane twice in one tournament. Earl has probably the busiest schedule than any other player. He is on the road almost every week out of the year.

Guess I don't know what Elite is.:smile:

This has nothing to do with tournies and phony races to 7 and 9.
I've beat world class players in tournies. It don't mean a thing.

His Boy Elroy
09-12-2013, 12:30 PM
There's only 2 elite pro pool players from the u.s nowadays. No matter what anyone wants to think, that's SVB and Archer, and Archer is nearing the end of his reign most likely because of age(few more years). They can play with anyone.

Hatch, Henny, Deuel, Dechaine, Schmidt, JJ, Shuff, Compton, Saez, Mills, Bartram, Morris, Earl, etc., all these guys are great players and some of our best from the u.s. but they are definitely not ELITE on a world scale, as where Archer and SVB fit in anywhere and can in rotation which is the main game hold their own against anyone.
I don't know how old Archer is, but I'm 53. I still play hockey but I can't move anywhere near as well as I could when I was 18. As for pool...my eye sight has not diminished one bit since I was 18, nor has my hand-eye coordination or anything else that factors into my pool playing ability diminished since I was 18.

cbaumann212
09-12-2013, 12:32 PM
I bet there are a dozen players with home tables that work 40-60 hours a week that can't get off work or can't afford to play in tournaments. If they did they could become pros in a very short time. Johnnyt

And if the queen had balls she'd be the king. What's the point?

one stroke
09-12-2013, 02:06 PM
I don't know how old Archer is, but I'm 53. I still play hockey but I can't move anywhere near as well as I could when I was 18. As for pool...my eye sight has not diminished one bit since I was 18, nor has my hand-eye coordination or anything else that factors into my pool playing ability diminished since I was 18.

I find this very hard to believe I can't think of one person I know in any sport that has the same eye hand coordination , I know it's impossible in any real sport , but I would stl think even in pool there would be some drop off ,,

1

poolguy4u
09-12-2013, 04:18 PM
This has nothing to do with tournies and phony races to 7 and 9.
I've beat world class players in tournies. It don't mean a thing.

:thumbup:


I enjoy the exhibitions they put on.

Glad to see you know what's going on!:wink:

jburkm002
09-12-2013, 08:15 PM
Anyone know of a money game with a pro against the local hotshot (who everyone thinks could be a pro) where they played straight up. Where the pro didnt have to give an ungodly spot to a guy everyone thinks is as good as a pro. A pro plays against the best players in the world. Just because Shane is on top right now doesn't mean the other pro's suck. Every once in a while like in many sports someone just comes along and dominates. Tiger Woods and Rafael Nadal are examples. It just happens. Being a pro isnt just about running racks. Those guys make about 95% of their shots. They rarely give up ball in hand no matter how bad they are stuck. I have seen them jump a ball and draw it back 6 feet for position. This is in a match against another top player. Not in their basement trying to make a video where they can do a retake. This is to put food on the table. This is a passion for them and like many have said. Their isnt much money unless your a top pro. Not to mention they have to find sponsors. Guess depending on your sponsor could also depend on your lifestyle and the amount of tournaments you can play in. Not all sponsors are equal givers.

realkingcobra
09-13-2013, 10:07 AM
Is there a test that makes you a furniture put together pro?

Well Johnny, it's clear you have no idea as to where to draw the line at being a "Pro" pool player, which is why you make such stupid comments toward me...like, just because I work on pool tables, and have for the last 30 years...I CAN'T possibly know anything about this sport/game...well, that's where you're wrong buddy. Argue with this logic:

My idea is to create a skill level test which must be performed on a Diamond 10' ProAm with standard/ProCut pockets before any "Pro's ONLY" events take place, and the test shall be as follows:

The test will be scored on a 20 rack total score. Player breaks a full rack of balls, if upon the break, scratches...that will end the inning and no points will be awarded, as a scratch on the break is a foul.

Next, upon a legal break, and playing from where the cue ball lays as well as all the object balls, a player then must attempt to clear the table in order to acquire as many points as possible. Scoring is as follows, all balls pocketed in any order are worth 1 point each, until there are only 5 balls remaining on the table, in which the last remaining balls must be pocketed in numerical order and are then worth 2 points per ball. Having cleared the rack without a foul or missing a shot, the total number of points received would be 20 points. In order to score an EVEN score such as in golf, being a PAR score, the player must break even in order to have a PAR score. Failure to do so would result in an OVER par score such as +4 or say +8 final score for that round. A scratch on the break would be an automatic +20 score.

Bonus points are awarded to any balls made on the break, being +1 point per ball, giving them a +2 point value. So, if a player made to balls on the break, plus successfully cleared the rack, the score for that round would be a -2 under par.

So, all players having taken a skill level test in order to determine their eligibility to play in a "Pro's ONLY" event would end up setting the BAR as to what is considered to be "PRO" since you're so hung up on that word, but what it would also do...in which you fail to understand....is create the level of "Semi PRO" in which most of the so called BETTER players actually belong. THIS would also help to establish the much needed "Semi PRO" division of this sport, as well as the "Advanced PLAYER" and "Intermediate Player" as well.

This kind of testing would break this sport down into 4 divisions of players, leading to the top...the "Best of the Best" It would also allow for the highest rated semi pro to take the place of a "Pro" that can't make it to a required event, therefore canceling out any "bye" at the beginning of any event.

The lack of requirement, the not knowing who's who in this sport, the lack of organizing in this sport to the point of NOT really knowing who the PROFESSIONALS are...is why it's never gone anywhere, why it's never really picked up a real sponsors...and the reason is....BECAUSE of people like you,...that's right...like YOU.

YOU and everyone like you feel like you have some god given right to play in tournaments in which PRO's are competing....because YOU have the money to pay the entry fees in which these so called tournaments need so badly in order to even take place. YOU and every one like you are the reason PROFESSIONAL pool players find it so hard to make a living in this sport....because YOU insist on being one of them....everytime you enter into a tournament to play against the "PRO's" This is why the races to win are short, this is why there is double elimination events...this is why "Pro's" losing their first round don't get paid.

In MY scheme of things, only the PRO's play...and get paid right after their first....single elimination loss...in a race to at least 21 games to win/lose....BECAUSE....they made the CUT to be a "PRO" in that certain event...and therefore should be able to make SOME kind of pay for that feat alone!!!

For an example, divisions may look a little like this:

Pro +5 to maybe -20

Semi Pro +20 to +6

Advanced +75 to +21

Intermediate +125 to +76

Glen

Jaden
09-13-2013, 10:24 AM
Well Johnny, it's clear you have no idea as to where to draw the line at being a "Pro" pool player, which is why you make such stupid comments toward me...like, just because I work on pool tables, and have for the last 30 years...I CAN'T possibly know anything about this sport/game...well, that's where you're wrong buddy. Argue with this logic:

My idea is to create a skill level test which must be performed on a Diamond 10' ProAm with standard/ProCut pockets before any "Pro's ONLY" events take place, and the test shall be as follows:

The test will be scored on a 20 rack total score. Player breaks a full rack of balls, if upon the break, scratches...that will end the inning and no points will be awarded, as a scratch on the break is a foul.

Next, upon a legal break, and playing from where the cue ball lays as well as all the object balls, a player then must attempt to clear the table in order to acquire as many points as possible. Scoring is as follows, all balls pocketed in any order are worth 1 point each, until there are only 5 balls remaining on the table, in which the last remaining balls must be pocketed in numerical order and are then worth 2 points per ball. Having cleared the rack without a foul or missing a shot, the total number of points received would be 20 points. In order to score an EVEN score such as in golf, being a PAR score, the player must break even in order to have a PAR score. Failure to do so would result in an OVER par score such as +4 or say +8 final score for that round. A scratch on the break would be an automatic +20 score.

Bonus points are awarded to any balls made on the break, being +1 point per ball, giving them a +2 point value. So, if a player made to balls on the break, plus successfully cleared the rack, the score for that round would be a -2 under par.

So, all players having taken a skill level test in order to determine their eligibility to play in a "Pro's ONLY" event would end up setting the BAR as to what is considered to be "PRO" since you're so hung up on that word, but what it would also do...in which you fail to understand....is create the level of "Semi PRO" in which most of the so called BETTER players actually belong. THIS would also help to establish the much needed "Semi PRO" division of this sport, as well as the "Advanced PLAYER" and "Intermediate Player" as well.

This kind of testing would break this sport down into 4 divisions of players, leading to the top...the "Best of the Best" It would also allow for the highest rated semi pro to take the place of a "Pro" that can't make it to a required event, therefore canceling out any "bye" at the beginning of any event.

The lack of requirement, the not knowing who's who in this sport, the lack of organizing in this sport to the point of NOT really knowing who the PROFESSIONALS are...is why it's never gone anywhere, why it's never really picked up a real sponsors...and the reason is....BECAUSE of people like you,...that's right...like YOU.

YOU and everyone like you feel like you have some god given right to play in tournaments in which PRO's are competing....because YOU have the money to pay the entry fees in which these so called tournaments need so badly in order to even take place. YOU and every one like you are the reason PROFESSIONAL pool players find it so hard to make a living in this sport....because YOU insist on being one of them....everytime you enter into a tournament to play against the "PRO's" This is why the races to win are short, this is why there is double elimination events...this is why "Pro's" losing their first round don't get paid.

In MY scheme of things, only the PRO's play...and get paid right after their first....single elimination loss...in a race to at least 21 games to win/lose....BECAUSE....they made the CUT to be a "PRO" in that certain event...and therefore should be able to make SOME kind of pay for that feat alone!!!

For an example, divisions may look a little like this:

Pro +5 to maybe -20

Semi Pro +20 to +6

Advanced +75 to +21

Intermediate +125 to +76

Glen


I like this idea, but for full rack rotation, there's no way these rules you've come up with would work.

Change it to ball in hand after the break and you might be a little closer.

Even the top players are not going to regularly have a shot after the break in full rack rotation. There is much more safety play involved in full rack rotation to the point that this is just not feasible.

Change it to a combination of number of innings it takes and then you may have something.

For instance, you can keep the rules all the same, but for the first additional inning per rack, it's an automatic +5 for the second additional inning in a rack an additional +7 but you have to finish the rack each time.

Otherwise, you'd never have a full field of pro players, cause there just wouldn't be enough people who could regularly do what you're describing here.

Jaden

bdorman
09-13-2013, 10:26 AM
I find this very hard to believe I can't think of one person I know in any sport that has the same eye hand coordination , I know it's impossible in any real sport , but I would stl think even in pool there would be some drop off ,,

1

Agreed. What "falls off" is the ability to quickly change focus between the CB and OB. The internal muscles in the eye simply weaken; they still work and the change in focus is still possible -- but the change in focus is slower and that affects the hand/eye coordination.

realkingcobra
09-13-2013, 10:27 AM
I like this idea, but for full rack rotation, there's no way these rules you've come up with would work.

Change it to ball in hand after the break and you might be a little closer.

Even the top players are not going to regularly have a shot after the break in full rack rotation. There is much more safety play involved in full rack rotation to the point that this is just not feasible.

Change it to a combination of number of innings it takes and then you may have something.

For instance, you can keep the rules all the same, but for the first additional inning per rack, it's an automatic +5 for the second additional inning in a rack an additional +7 but you have to finish the rack each time.

Otherwise, you'd never have a full field of pro players, cause there just wouldn't be enough people who could regularly do what you're describing here.

Jaden

Jaden...only the last 5 balls are played in rotation...from the break...it's wide open, shoot ANY ball;)

realkingcobra
09-13-2013, 10:29 AM
I like this idea, but for full rack rotation, there's no way these rules you've come up with would work.

Change it to ball in hand after the break and you might be a little closer.

Even the top players are not going to regularly have a shot after the break in full rack rotation. There is much more safety play involved in full rack rotation to the point that this is just not feasible.

Change it to a combination of number of innings it takes and then you may have something.

For instance, you can keep the rules all the same, but for the first additional inning per rack, it's an automatic +5 for the second additional inning in a rack an additional +7 but you have to finish the rack each time.

Otherwise, you'd never have a full field of pro players, cause there just wouldn't be enough people who could regularly do what you're describing here.

Jaden

A FULL field of say 64 Pro players...would consist of the 64 highest scores submitted prior to the event.

iusedtoberich
09-13-2013, 10:30 AM
I don't know how old Archer is, but I'm 53. I still play hockey but I can't move anywhere near as well as I could when I was 18. As for pool...my eye sight has not diminished one bit since I was 18, nor has my hand-eye coordination or anything else that factors into my pool playing ability diminished since I was 18.

HIs Boy, I've read a lot of the threads you recently made about your home table, 760 cloth, draw stroke, the self admitted statement you have been to a pool hall once or twice in 40 years, etc, and now this statement. You really need to get out and go to a pool hall and test yourself in competition, and see what is out there. Frankly, you don't know what you don't know.

I'm not trying to be rude, but I couldn't bite my tongue any longer.

realkingcobra
09-13-2013, 10:49 AM
I like this idea, but for full rack rotation, there's no way these rules you've come up with would work.

Change it to ball in hand after the break and you might be a little closer.

Even the top players are not going to regularly have a shot after the break in full rack rotation. There is much more safety play involved in full rack rotation to the point that this is just not feasible.

Change it to a combination of number of innings it takes and then you may have something.

For instance, you can keep the rules all the same, but for the first additional inning per rack, it's an automatic +5 for the second additional inning in a rack an additional +7 but you have to finish the rack each time.

Otherwise, you'd never have a full field of pro players, cause there just wouldn't be enough people who could regularly do what you're describing here.

Jaden

All this test is for, is to decide who can play, and who's going to miss out...it tests the players ability on many levels, and it's designed to bring out the best, and for once....establish some kind of bar as to what it means to be a "PRO"

This test is only for 9 & 10 ball, I have other tests for other games;)

BeiberLvr
09-13-2013, 11:05 AM
A FULL field of say 64 Pro players...would consist of the 64 highest scores submitted prior to the event.

I don't know if I love the test itself, but I do love the idea of having a qualifier. Of course, it would work best if there was an actual pro tour.

Let's say a season had 16 total tournaments with 4 majors. There could be a qualifier before every one. Once a player is on the tour, they don't have to re-qualify that season unless they don't place in a certain spot, say top 32.

realkingcobra
09-13-2013, 11:38 AM
I would rather see 4 quarterly 10 ball events, points awarded for each win, the the top 8 players with the most wins after the last quarterly event...plays for the world championship.

But, in order to guarantee the best 8 players in the world in the finals, there would have to be retesting prior to each quarterly event, sort of like reshuffling the deck every 3 months, that way only the real top players are going to be consistently placing, and a chance to see new faces as well. A player that placed 64th in the last quarterly cut off, had better be playing his ass off until the next quarterly takes place....because I guarantee you....there'd be at least 100 more players doing just that, so they can have a chance to make the cut for the next event;)

realkingcobra
09-13-2013, 11:43 AM
I don't know if I love the test itself, but I do love the idea of having a qualifier. Of course, it would work best if there was an actual pro tour.

Let's say a season had 16 total tournaments with 4 majors. There could be a qualifier before every one. Once a player is on the tour, they don't have to re-qualify that season unless they don't place in a certain spot, say top 32.

Keep in mind, 4 quarterly events before each world championship consisting of:

10 ball
9 ball
8 ball
One pocket
Banks
14.1 Straight pool

That's 26 quarterly qualifiers, and 6 world championships:thumbup:

realkingcobra
09-13-2013, 11:54 AM
And I'd make a few changes in the 10 ball events as well, just to name a few...(A) all balls are racked with the exact same patter in every rack, and (B) making the 10 ball on the break counts in any pocket, EXCEPT...that it spots back up, the breaker gets the win, but if he wants to secure that win...he must be the player that also plays the 10 ball last, or the opposing player gets a win by making the 10 ball last. So, for example if both player are on the hill at 20-20 going to 21 for the win....breaker makes the 10 on the break, the score climbs to 21-20 but fails to make the 10 ball last, and his opponent pockets the 10 last, the score ties at 21-21 and the player that made the last 10 ball is now the breaker in the overtime playoff game. This play continues until there is a clear winner.

tucson9ball
09-13-2013, 12:10 PM
I think it comes down to numbers. Do you cut the line at the top 16 players, 32, 64, etc, to call them pros?

We all say that when you are open speed, you can beat anyone at any time. I think that's a myth, and only good for a short race. That never seems to hold up in pro events. All these local heroes we talk about, when they compete on a national level, usually go 2 and out. I'll give a few examples: Matt Krah. He is a great local player in the PA/NJ/DE area. He wins a few regional stops of the Mezz tour, and he plays in every single one. When he goes to the US Open every year, its usually 2 and out. Same thing for lots of PA players I follow. Lee Holt is another one with pretty much the same track record. These guys are all local superstars, but they are truly many levels below the top guys. Another example is the action match today between Hager and Archer. Archer was spotting him 7 games in a race to 22, and wins 22-9. This is a player that people say can beat anyone on any given day. But when he comes against a top pro, he wins 2 games.

The top 10 guys in the US today would still be the top guys, even if there were monthly million dollar tournaments.

When the IPT was out, it certainly brought players out of retirement and out of the woodwork. But they were more like filler material, finishing in last place. The guys who finished in the top 20 of the IPT events were the regular faces.

So what I think would happen if we had lots of money in pool, is it would be just like the IPT tournament if we had traditional 128 man events. Only 25% of the guys would be a real threat to win. The other 25% or so guys would be expected to cash well. And the remaining 50% of the guys would just be filler, significantly below the level of the rest of the field.

I think what should happen if there was huge money in pool (fantasizing now...) is to separate the 128 players in the above scenario into two tiers. The top tier would only be the best 32 players. Then the rest of the other players (again, fantasy numbers here), would compete to get a spot in the 32. Every year, the bottom 8 of the 32 would be replaced by the top 8 in the second tier.

So only the elite of the elite would be the "pro tour" that we fans would support with viewing. The other guys would be trying to get into that elite field every year.


But, too add to that..........let's fantasize a bit....

If Pool did have big sponsors and a list of 24 tour stops per year. Let's say that each stop would pay the winner $500,000 and the fields would be capped at 256 players, who would have to qualify to be on the Pro Tour.

If there were payouts like that, you would see the up-and-coming practicing every day. They would set up shots over and over just like guys do at the Golf driving range today. You would see the level of play go up, up, up...

Those guys who could be Pro, but just don't put in the time today, would actually have something to look forward to. If pool had big payouts, Shane wouldn't be the top player. JMHO

There would be guys playing 6-10 hours per day, because they could make a living at it. Ah......to fantasize.....:thumbup:

Jaden
09-13-2013, 12:16 PM
Jaden...only the last 5 balls are played in rotation...from the break...it's wide open, shoot ANY ball;)

So basically the q challenge...

Jaden

9Ballr
09-13-2013, 12:24 PM
I bet there are a dozen players with home tables that work 40-60 hours a week that can't get off work or can't afford to play in tournaments. If they did they could become pros in a very short time. Johnnyt


Sure there are but I don't understand why anybody would want to become a pro in this game.

There is VERY little money in it - unless you're at the very top levels - and you have to kiss ass all day long just to get some miniscule sponsorship and even then it might just be a coupon for 10% of your next cue and you still have to wear their patch.

It's a total manipulation game.

His Boy Elroy
09-13-2013, 12:29 PM
HIs Boy, I've read a lot of the threads you recently made about your home table, 760 cloth, draw stroke, the self admitted statement you have been to a pool hall once or twice in 40 years, etc, and now this statement. You really need to get out and go to a pool hall and test yourself in competition, and see what is out there. Frankly, you don't know what you don't know.

I'm not trying to be rude, but I couldn't bite my tongue any longer.
You're not being rude. I'll take it as constructive criticism.

CJ Wiley
09-13-2013, 12:33 PM
:scratchhead:


Hmmm...Earl just beat Shane twice in one tournament. Earl has probably the busiest schedule than any other player. He is on the road almost every week out of the year.

Guess I don't know what Elite is.:smile:

That's a great point, the top champions know who can win and who can't. The world championships this year is a race to 9 and it's not even on ESPN? Between the one foul rules and the shorter races [and lack of television pressure] it's a real "crap shoot".

According to accu-stats the tournaments aren't being won by very high scores. I think the same players would fight their way to the top if the rules and equipment was more challenging, but it would be much more interesting to see. I can't watch any matches these days, it's just one of two things....a player playing safe or running the balls and both of these factors are uninteresting from my perspective.

I like to see the BATTLE for the first shot, that's what takes the most skill.....like boxing, it's more impressive to see the boxers mixing it up than just hitting the bag.....and so it is in pool as well.

iusedtoberich
09-13-2013, 12:36 PM
I think we as fans want to see the best of the best play. We don't care to see the local hero (unless he is local to us) play Corey or Archer or Busty.... We want to see Corey play Archer, and Archer play Busty, and every match in a tournament be of that caliber.

I say cut out the 64 and 128 man fields that are fluff. The current model is the fluff pays for the top guys that cash. But the fans don't care about the fluff, they only watch the big guys. Make the whole tournament ONLY the big guys. Make it limited to 16 players for now. If the whole sport grows, open it to 32 players. But today, I think it can only support 16 players.

A few entities are doing this now:

1. TAR with their one on one action matches of the big guys
2. Accu-Stats with their Make it Happen events of only the big guys
3. Diamond with their Big Foot events, that, via the $1000 entry fee, only the big guys enter
4. Griffin is hinting towards doing the same thing on his latest podcast, only having a specific small number of handpicked guys to be in his pro events.

Call this 16 player field the pro tour.

If it takes off, you can have qualifiers for it. Joe Tuckers ABC league can be the qualifier. The top finishers in his national championship can take future spots that open up in the filed of 16. Every year, the bottom quarter performers of the "pro tour" are replaced by the top performers on Tucker's ABC tour.

Or, have a system like Glen is talking about to determine who is in or out.


You can easily just vote in the top 16 in the first year or two, we all know who they are.

But the main point is, however you get the top 16 guys, is to make a product that is marketable to the fans, and the sponsors. The fans don't care about Joe Shmo. The fans want to see the top guys, and that's it. And if the fans show up, there is a tiny chance the sponsors will too, and then the whole thing grows.

This whole line of thinking requires breaking out of the current paradigm we are in, of large fields filled with fluff.

My railbird 3 cents:):)

Johnnyt
09-13-2013, 01:06 PM
Well Johnny, it's clear you have no idea as to where to draw the line at being a "Pro" pool player, which is why you make such stupid comments toward me...like, just because I work on pool tables, and have for the last 30 years...I CAN'T possibly know anything about this sport/game...well, that's where you're wrong buddy. Argue with this logic:

My idea is to create a skill level test which must be performed on a Diamond 10' ProAm with standard/ProCut pockets before any "Pro's ONLY" events take place, and the test shall be as follows:

The test will be scored on a 20 rack total score. Player breaks a full rack of balls, if upon the break, scratches...that will end the inning and no points will be awarded, as a scratch on the break is a foul.

Next, upon a legal break, and playing from where the cue ball lays as well as all the object balls, a player then must attempt to clear the table in order to acquire as many points as possible. Scoring is as follows, all balls pocketed in any order are worth 1 point each, until there are only 5 balls remaining on the table, in which the last remaining balls must be pocketed in numerical order and are then worth 2 points per ball. Having cleared the rack without a foul or missing a shot, the total number of points received would be 20 points. In order to score an EVEN score such as in golf, being a PAR score, the player must break even in order to have a PAR score. Failure to do so would result in an OVER par score such as +4 or say +8 final score for that round. A scratch on the break would be an automatic +20 score.

Bonus points are awarded to any balls made on the break, being +1 point per ball, giving them a +2 point value. So, if a player made to balls on the break, plus successfully cleared the rack, the score for that round would be a -2 under par.

So, all players having taken a skill level test in order to determine their eligibility to play in a "Pro's ONLY" event would end up setting the BAR as to what is considered to be "PRO" since you're so hung up on that word, but what it would also do...in which you fail to understand....is create the level of "Semi PRO" in which most of the so called BETTER players actually belong. THIS would also help to establish the much needed "Semi PRO" division of this sport, as well as the "Advanced PLAYER" and "Intermediate Player" as well.

This kind of testing would break this sport down into 4 divisions of players, leading to the top...the "Best of the Best" It would also allow for the highest rated semi pro to take the place of a "Pro" that can't make it to a required event, therefore canceling out any "bye" at the beginning of any event.

The lack of requirement, the not knowing who's who in this sport, the lack of organizing in this sport to the point of NOT really knowing who the PROFESSIONALS are...is why it's never gone anywhere, why it's never really picked up a real sponsors...and the reason is....BECAUSE of people like you,...that's right...like YOU.

YOU and everyone like you feel like you have some god given right to play in tournaments in which PRO's are competing....because YOU have the money to pay the entry fees in which these so called tournaments need so badly in order to even take place. YOU and every one like you are the reason PROFESSIONAL pool players find it so hard to make a living in this sport....because YOU insist on being one of them....everytime you enter into a tournament to play against the "PRO's" This is why the races to win are short, this is why there is double elimination events...this is why "Pro's" losing their first round don't get paid.

In MY scheme of things, only the PRO's play...and get paid right after their first....single elimination loss...in a race to at least 21 games to win/lose....BECAUSE....they made the CUT to be a "PRO" in that certain event...and therefore should be able to make SOME kind of pay for that feat alone!!!

For an example, divisions may look a little like this:

Pro +5 to maybe -20

Semi Pro +20 to +6

Advanced +75 to +21

Intermediate +125 to +76

Glen

Your idea that was stole from Allen Hopkins Skill Level Test that he made 20+ years ago.

Me play in tournaments? Hardly ever and I never wanted to win the ones I entered. I wanted a money game with the top money finishes after the tournament. As far as you as a table mechanic, you seem to be good, but you charge way too much, take too much time getting to and doing the job. There are table mechanics out there that can do the same good job if they could charge what you do and take days to finish a one-table job. Your clients mostly have a lot of money and want who they hear/think is the best. Enjoy it while you can as everything is going to catch up to you soon and you will just be an installer, (furniture installer).

W/O the dead money in pro/open events there would be 25% of the money there is now in most tournaments. You haven’t solved anything and your skill level idea was stole/copied from someone else…a real pro. Johnnyt

Cdryden
09-13-2013, 01:28 PM
While I do think there probably are a few here that could, I don't put myself in that category. I have seen pros burning thru racks up close and personal, it was humbling to say the least.
I can hold my own with the locals and that's good enough for me at this point.

Nine ... corner
09-13-2013, 01:36 PM
The fluff as it's being called is who is providing the bulk of the payouts. Why do you think the highest paid "sporting event", the WSOP can pay out $8.5 million dollars to the winner? Because there is a ton of dead money aka fluff. ;)

BasementDweller
09-13-2013, 01:42 PM
I think it's clearly true that if there was more money in pool there would great players coming out of the woodwork. That's a saying right???

I think pool in the U.S. has clearly taken a hit -- post IPT. I can sit here and think of a dozen or more players just in the Midwest that can play professional level pool. Maybe not quite top flight, but pretty strong.

I think of a guy like Shawn Putnam. I think there are or were at one time, quite a few guys that played right around his speed that just gave up on the game. I guess a lot of these guys are getting older now and I really don't see who is going to replace them. We all (myself included) talk about Shane like he's a young kid but actually he's almost 30 now. Where are the 18 year old phenoms? Nowhere to be found.

I think the picture in the U.S. would be much bleaker if it wasn't for the growth of the game everywhere else (Europe & Asia).

My only hope for the game here in the U.S. is that maybe things have bottomed out. How much worse can it get?

realkingcobra
09-13-2013, 02:29 PM
Your idea that was stole from Allen Hopkins Skill Level Test that he made 20+ years ago.

Me play in tournaments? Hardly ever and I never wanted to win the ones I entered. I wanted a money game with the top money finishes after the tournament. As far as you as a table mechanic, you seem to be good, but you charge way too much, take too much time getting to and doing the job. There are table mechanics out there that can do the same good job if they could charge what you do and take days to finish a one-table job. Your clients mostly have a lot of money and want who they hear/think is the best. Enjoy it while you can as everything is going to catch up to you soon and you will just be an installer, (furniture installer).

W/O the dead money in pro/open events there would be 25% of the money there is now in most tournaments. You haven’t solved anything and your skill level idea was stole/copied from someone else…a real pro. Johnnyt

Stole? No, you have no idea, if that were the case...name one tournament that has taken place, that the players were required to take a skill level test BEFORE the event took place, to decide who was going to play, and who wasn't?:rolleyes:

Johnnyt
09-13-2013, 02:33 PM
Stole? No, you have no idea, if that were the case...name one tournament that has taken place, that the players were required to take a skill level test BEFORE the event took place, to decide who was going to play, and who wasn't?:rolleyes:

It's not a good test for what you want to use it for. No defense in it. And you know pool? :rolleyes: Johnnyt

Jaden
09-13-2013, 02:41 PM
Stole? No, you have no idea, if that were the case...name one tournament that has taken place, that the players were required to take a skill level test BEFORE the event took place, to decide who was going to play, and who wasn't?:rolleyes:

You would have to require that all entrants meet a certain criteria and that they take the q challenge at an authorized test center or pool hall prior to being allowed to sign up.

There is still one problem with this though. I would still qualify for every tournament even though I usually don't compete well. I can play top level pool but don't compete well. I'm getting better at competing but still have trouble closing (3 of the last four open tournies I played in I lost after being on the hill and several games ahead. One up 8-4 in a race to nine alternating break, one up 6-2 in a race to 7).

If you look at the driver maker tournaments that we had here I qualified at a pro level in every one that I participated in and I did it on super tough conditions 4" pockets.

Although I have finished respectfully in most of the tournaments that I have competed in, I also have dogged it horribly at times too. I haven't been able to compete in many although I'm hoping for that to change in the near future.

You may find that many people will fall into the same category as me...

Jaden

realkingcobra
09-13-2013, 02:42 PM
There are table mechanics out there that can do the same good job if they could charge what you do and take days to finish a one-table job.

Now you're just being dumb, making a statement like that. It's not a matter of the money, if it were then a table mechanic's skills would be based on the price they charge, but that's not the case. If a mechanic don't know how to work on a table at MY level of expertise, then no amount of money you pay that person...is going to get the job done any better, they just don't have the skills. I've traveled this country from coast to coast, and worked in 49 states...as a table mechanic, so I've seen the work of MANY...MANY other table mechanic's and I can safely say...you have no idea what you're talking about. And you think I charge to much?...LOL I look at it this way, if a customer is willing to pay X amount of dollars to someone that don't know how to do the job right, so...how much are they willing to pay someone who KNOWS how to do the job right!!!...the SAME as they'd pay someone that don't know what they're doing??????...I don't think so, not a chance!! I've paid my dues, earned the right to charge what I charge...and see no reason that I should have to lower my rates for the likes of someone like you...just because YOU think I charge to much....who in the hell do YOU think you are?!?!

realkingcobra
09-13-2013, 02:49 PM
You would have to require that all entrants meet a certain criteria and that they take the q challenge at an authorized test center or pool hall prior to being allowed to sign up.

There is still one problem with this though. I would still qualify for every tournament even though I usually don't compete well. I can play top level pool but don't compete well. I'm getting better at competing but still have trouble closing (3 of the last four open tournies I played in I lost after being on the hill and several games ahead. One up 8-4 in a race to nine alternating break, one up 6-2 in a race to 7).

If you look at the driver maker tournaments that we had here I qualified at a pro level in every one that I participated in and I did it on super tough conditions 4" pockets.

Although I have finished respectfully in most of the tournaments that I have competed in, I also have dogged it horribly at times too. I haven't been able to compete in many although I'm hoping for that to change in the near future.

You may find that many people will fall into the same category as me...

Jaden

Well, short races and double elimination tournaments are not something I agree with. 10 ball, 9, ball and 8 ball needs to be played at a Pro level of at least to a race to 21 games minumum, or to a set match time limit. That way, only the player that SHOULD win, is in fact the one that DOES win.

Semi Pro's should play to a lesser amount of games to win a match, and below that rating, the match should be less games in a match also.

poolmouse
09-13-2013, 02:51 PM
Define the requirements of a "Pro"...is there a test or something that needs to be passed first in order to be considered a "Pro"?

The term "Pro" implies the person is making a living at it. Aside from this year's top 10-20 in the world who might make a recent income, the rest are delusional. And this year's "successful Pros" are next year's homeless. And those who have full time jobs won't get to the level they need to be to "maybe" win that tournament that "might" earn them enough to pay their bills, "if" they can afford that house or car. The vast majority of "Pro" players are chasing a worthless dream, wasting time and effort, perhaps holding a menial labor job, or maybe a high paying job, for sure wishing the word "pro" actually meant more than the compensating for something more important that's missing in their lives. A piece if advice for prospective "pro" players, don't be a fool. Don't try to play the game of pool to earn a living...instead, earn a living to play the game of pool. Don't waste your life with the game...instead enhance your life with the game.

Jaden
09-13-2013, 02:51 PM
Well, short races and double elimination tournaments are not something I agree with. 10 ball, 9, ball and 8 ball needs to be played at a Pro level of at least to a race to 21 games minumum, or to a set match time limit. That way, only the player that SHOULD win, is in fact the one that DOES win.

Semi Pro's should play to a lesser amount of games to win a match, and below that rating, the match should be less games in a match also.

I agree with you on this.

Jaden

iusedtoberich
09-13-2013, 04:21 PM
The fluff as it's being called is who is providing the bulk of the payouts. Why do you think the highest paid "sporting event", the WSOP can pay out $8.5 million dollars to the winner? Because there is a ton of dead money aka fluff. ;)

Yes, I understand this. There is a big difference between pool and poker players: Poker players are dumb. Every single pool/poker player I've met at the pool room during the back room games thinks they know all the odds, and can be a pro poker player. These same guys are C/B/A players in pool, and know exactly where they stand on the table and won't make a bad pool game. But poker, forget about it, they all lose their money. They all go to Atlantic City, and now the local casinos that popped up everywhere since all the laws changed, and lose it all.

Thats why poker works being fed by its "fluff" players. They all think they have a shot and their are TONS of them.

The whole reason to eliminate the fluff players in pool, is to create a small, portable, cohesive group of 16 TOP guys that can be organized into a legitimate pro tool, and that will attract sponsors. The sponsors pay the bills in this model, not the fluff players.

Like I said, its a complete paradigm shift from where we are today and where we have been in the pool world.

Again, this is all fantasy land talk. The words "cohesive" and "organized" and "pro player" have not lasted long before...

iusedtoberich
09-13-2013, 04:31 PM
...snip...
If you look at the driver maker tournaments that we had here I qualified at a pro level in every one that I participated in and I did it on super tough conditions 4" pockets.
...snip...

I participated in our own Hopkins skill test tournaments as well. I recall one of the posters several years ago in one of the tournament threads mentioned that Parica ran 20 straight racks of 20 points each rack. I could be off slightly on the number, but it was something like that.

That test is certainly a good test, but all the top guys would be scoring 20's left and right, imo.

Jaden
09-13-2013, 05:10 PM
I participated in our own Hopkins skill test tournaments as well. I recall one of the posters several years ago in one of the tournament threads mentioned that Parica ran 20 straight racks of 20 points each rack. I could be off slightly on the number, but it was something like that.

That test is certainly a good test, but all the top guys would be scoring 20's left and right, imo.

Yes Parica did that I'm sure. Many are capable of it, but even the top players don't do it all the time.

People always say so and so ran a six pack etc.. like that is the rule and not the exception.

The people that actually WIN the tournaments and are playing their best don't have six packs in every tournament. They're lucky to have a 40% break and run when they're playing at their best.

No one talks about the times when they don't play well, but you have to look at people's averages, not just their top play. The best, like Shane, Orcullo, Johnny, Appleton, etc... have less disparity in their top gear and their bottom gear, but there is still disparity.

Besides, even if the absolute best do it regularly, then you're still not gonna have 64 players that do it enough to make it difficult to discern who should be playing in a given tournament.

Jaden

realkingcobra
09-13-2013, 05:29 PM
Besides, even if the absolute best do it regularly, then you're still not gonna have 64 players that do it enough to make it difficult to discern who should be playing in a given tournament.

Jaden

Out of a 64 player field, I wouldn't care if the top 50 players had the same exact test score, and the remaining 14 had a little lower test scores, bottom line is that they would have at the least...earned the right to be there, whereas the rest of the pool playing world would be right where they belong....watching the "PRO'S" fighting it out for ONE champion:grin:

realkingcobra
09-13-2013, 05:33 PM
Just a reminder, I'm going to be finishing up with the couple of tables I'm working on right now pretty soon, so if you have a Diamond and want it worked on, or converted from a red label to a blue label playing table...send me a PM or call me at 702-927-5689...before I leave the state, because then I'll be gone...and you'll be SOL...LOL

Glen

Idaho
09-14-2013, 05:10 PM
Well Johnny, it's clear you have no idea as to where to draw the line at being a "Pro" pool player, which is why you make such stupid comments toward me...like, just because I work on pool tables, and have for the last 30 years...I CAN'T possibly know anything about this sport/game...well, that's where you're wrong buddy. Argue with this logic:

My idea is to create a skill level test which must be performed on a Diamond 10' ProAm with standard/ProCut pockets before any "Pro's ONLY" events take place, and the test shall be as follows:

The test will be scored on a 20 rack total score. Player breaks a full rack of balls, if upon the break, scratches...that will end the inning and no points will be awarded, as a scratch on the break is a foul.

Next, upon a legal break, and playing from where the cue ball lays as well as all the object balls, a player then must attempt to clear the table in order to acquire as many points as possible. Scoring is as follows, all balls pocketed in any order are worth 1 point each, until there are only 5 balls remaining on the table, in which the last remaining balls must be pocketed in numerical order and are then worth 2 points per ball. Having cleared the rack without a foul or missing a shot, the total number of points received would be 20 points. In order to score an EVEN score such as in golf, being a PAR score, the player must break even in order to have a PAR score. Failure to do so would result in an OVER par score such as +4 or say +8 final score for that round. A scratch on the break would be an automatic +20 score.

Bonus points are awarded to any balls made on the break, being +1 point per ball, giving them a +2 point value. So, if a player made to balls on the break, plus successfully cleared the rack, the score for that round would be a -2 under par.

So, all players having taken a skill level test in order to determine their eligibility to play in a "Pro's ONLY" event would end up setting the BAR as to what is considered to be "PRO" since you're so hung up on that word, but what it would also do...in which you fail to understand....is create the level of "Semi PRO" in which most of the so called BETTER players actually belong. THIS would also help to establish the much needed "Semi PRO" division of this sport, as well as the "Advanced PLAYER" and "Intermediate Player" as well.

This kind of testing would break this sport down into 4 divisions of players, leading to the top...the "Best of the Best" It would also allow for the highest rated semi pro to take the place of a "Pro" that can't make it to a required event, therefore canceling out any "bye" at the beginning of any event.

The lack of requirement, the not knowing who's who in this sport, the lack of organizing in this sport to the point of NOT really knowing who the PROFESSIONALS are...is why it's never gone anywhere, why it's never really picked up a real sponsors...and the reason is....BECAUSE of people like you,...that's right...like YOU.

YOU and everyone like you feel like you have some god given right to play in tournaments in which PRO's are competing....because YOU have the money to pay the entry fees in which these so called tournaments need so badly in order to even take place. YOU and every one like you are the reason PROFESSIONAL pool players find it so hard to make a living in this sport....because YOU insist on being one of them....everytime you enter into a tournament to play against the "PRO's" This is why the races to win are short, this is why there is double elimination events...this is why "Pro's" losing their first round don't get paid.

In MY scheme of things, only the PRO's play...and get paid right after their first....single elimination loss...in a race to at least 21 games to win/lose....BECAUSE....they made the CUT to be a "PRO" in that certain event...and therefore should be able to make SOME kind of pay for that feat alone!!!

For an example, divisions may look a little like this:

Pro +5 to maybe -20

Semi Pro +20 to +6

Advanced +75 to +21

Intermediate +125 to +76

Glen



So Glen, you think the pros really want that? What would the payouts look like without the dead money that enters? So you shrink the field to 64, big deal. Why not fill it with whoever wants to enter and let the cream rise to the top for more money? I know you said you have the idea to fix pro pool. For shit's sake, I hope this isn't it. :cool::thumbup::o:grin::):wink::grin-square: (I can use smiley's too)

realkingcobra
09-14-2013, 05:26 PM
So Glen, you think the pros really want that? What would the payouts look like without the dead money that enters? So you shrink the field to 64, big deal. Why not fill it with whoever wants to enter and let the cream rise to the top for more money? I know you said you have the idea to fix pro pool. For shit's sake, I hope this isn't it. :cool::thumbup::o:grin::):wink::grin-square: (I can use smiley's too)

Don't worry to much about what I'm planning on doing, it's way over your head;)

Tramp Steamer
09-14-2013, 05:36 PM
I apologize for not reading all the posts, but in answer to your statement, Johnny, I would suspect there are lots of amateurs who could play at the professional level. The question remains, however, why would they want to.
The hours are long. The pay is low. The food is bad. And, it's oftimes hard to see through the smoke. :smile:

realkingcobra
09-14-2013, 06:28 PM
Why not fill it with whoever wants to enter and let the cream rise to the top for more money?. :cool::thumbup::o:grin::):wink::grin-square: (I can use smiley's too)

When that takes place, it's no different than what's been going on for years and years already, it's nothing more than a ring game, with a little added money....like the US Open and all the rest of the tournaments taking place today...but, I wouldn't expect you to understand that. You're the type of person that feels like you should have a right to play against some of the Pro's...because after all, they NEED your entry fee to help PAY the players that get in the money. THAT'S what's wrong with "Professional" pool today...there is NO "Professional" division that exists, if there were....you'd NEVER get the chance to play against a real "Pro" because you couldn't cut the mustard to win the RIGHT to be there....sad isn't it?:grin:

But don't worry, in my perfect little world...you'd get a chance....a SLIGHT chance to play at least ONE "Pro" in a "Pro's ONLY" event, by way of having a skill level test score on file...which means you DIDN'T make the cut to the PRO'S, then you could buy as many raffle tickets as you want to try and WIN one of 64 spots to play against ONE of the PRO'S.

That's right, a 64 player PRO'S only tournament would start out with the FIRST round being an exhibition round where ALL the PRO'S would play one pick of the draw opponent first, before they start playing each other, and that would also mean a race to 21 to win, 10 ahead for an early win by knockout, or ahead on the score card at the end of 3 hours.

All the raffle ticket sales....would go to ALL 64 "Pro's" divided equally...as a bonus so to speak, so players like YOU would have to EARN your chances to play a PRO, not just put up an entry fee and you're on your way!!!

Idaho
09-14-2013, 08:19 PM
When that takes place, it's no different than what's been going on for years and years already, it's nothing more than a ring game, with a little added money....like the US Open and all the rest of the tournaments taking place today...but, I wouldn't expect you to understand that. You're the type of person that feels like you should have a right to play against some of the Pro's...because after all, they NEED your entry fee to help PAY the players that get in the money. THAT'S what's wrong with "Professional" pool today...there is NO "Professional" division that exists, if there were....you'd NEVER get the chance to play against a real "Pro" because you couldn't cut the mustard to win the RIGHT to be there....sad isn't it?:grin:

But don't worry, in my perfect little world...you'd get a chance....a SLIGHT chance to play at least ONE "Pro" in a "Pro's ONLY" event, by way of having a skill level test score on file...which means you DIDN'T make the cut to the PRO'S, then you could buy as many raffle tickets as you want to try and WIN one of 64 spots to play against ONE of the PRO'S.

That's right, a 64 player PRO'S only tournament would start out with the FIRST round being an exhibition round where ALL the PRO'S would play one pick of the draw opponent first, before they start playing each other, and that would also mean a race to 21 to win, 10 ahead for an early win by knockout, or ahead on the score card at the end of 3 hours.

All the raffle ticket sales....would go to ALL 64 "Pro's" divided equally...as a bonus so to speak, so players like YOU would have to EARN your chances to play a PRO, not just put up an entry fee and you're on your way!!!


Glen, you didn't answer my question. Do you really think that the "pros" want limited fields? Limited fields mean less money in the pot. With limited sponsorship money available, that is the "pros" best chance at a larger paycheck. John Q fan doesn't give a shit who is entered in the tournament, because the "pros" will probably rise to the top and be in the final matches, which are the only matches that would be televised anyway. Keep thinking buddy!:thumbup:

Mr. Bond
09-14-2013, 10:09 PM
I reconsidered my response. Sorry.
:cool:

realkingcobra
09-14-2013, 10:59 PM
Glen, you didn't answer my question. Do you really think that the "pros" want limited fields? Limited fields mean less money in the pot. With limited sponsorship money available, that is the "pros" best chance at a larger paycheck. John Q fan doesn't give a shit who is entered in the tournament, because the "pros" will probably rise to the top and be in the final matches, which are the only matches that would be televised anyway. Keep thinking buddy!:thumbup:

Keep dreaming:rolleyes:

CJ Wiley
09-14-2013, 11:34 PM
I bet there are a dozen players with home tables that work 40-60 hours a week that can't get off work or can't afford to play in tournaments. If they did they could become pros in a very short time. Johnnyt

Anyone can be a "Pro".....all you have to do is pay an entree fee these days.

Now, becoming a champion caliber player that can really win a tournament, or place in the top 5 is another story.

Johnnyt
09-15-2013, 12:54 AM
Anyone can be a "Pro".....all you have to do is pay an entree fee these days.

Now, becoming a champion caliber player that can really win a tournament, or place in the top 5 is another story.

I understand what you are saying. I know Shane is only one example, but if there is one who did it there are probably more that could if pool became cool to kids. Johnnyt

one stroke
09-15-2013, 07:06 AM
Anyone can be a "Pro".....all you have to do is pay an entree fee these days.

Now, becoming a champion caliber player that can really win a tournament, or place in the top 5 is another story.

No question there ,,,and if the entry and payouts were large enough for players to cross oceans to play , the number of American pros would no question shrink not expand


1

realkingcobra
09-15-2013, 09:18 AM
Glen, you didn't answer my question. Do you really think that the "pros" want limited fields? Limited fields mean less money in the pot. With limited sponsorship money available, that is the "pros" best chance at a larger paycheck. John Q fan doesn't give a shit who is entered in the tournament, because the "pros" will probably rise to the top and be in the final matches, which are the only matches that would be televised anyway. Keep thinking buddy!:thumbup:

I think you missed my point about the Pro's, they would ALL get paid, even if they lose their first match, because they made the cut to play as a Pro in the event. Don't worry about what I'm planning on doing, just pay attention to your life and you'll be a lot better off. I know you have this grudge against me....but, I really don't care, trust me...I don't:rolleyes:

Glen

deerhunter
09-15-2013, 09:36 AM
Websters dictionary:

Professional - engaged in a profession or engaging in as a profession or means of livelihood;

I agree with CJ, there is a big difference between a professional and a champion caliber player.

One quick example:
Old timers will remember this guy, I'm sure Jay seen him more than once. They called him "Brown Man", hung around Indy for years. Didn't play that well but matched up great. He was always under estimated. He would play in a brown coat, chew on a cigar and never bend over to shoot.

Most of the time, when on the road, he would have a good player with him. One of his favorites was Peru Paul. I seen Brown Man 20 times and never seen him hit a ball. Needless to say; I was one of those that didn't think the guy could play at all. So, when he asked me to play, I jumped at the chance. Do you care to guess who got the cash?

Back to the point; how do you classify a pro. Brown Man was a college grad, never worked a day in his life. Played pool and backed players. If this guy wasn't a pro pool player, what do you call him? :eek:

Maniac
09-15-2013, 09:46 AM
If this guy wasn't a pro pool player, what do you call him? :eek:

I'd call him what everyone else called him........"Brown Man" :grin:!!!

Maniac

Idaho
09-15-2013, 10:04 AM
I think you missed my point about the Pro's, they would ALL get paid, even if they lose their first match, because they made the cut to play as a Pro in the event. Don't worry about what I'm planning on doing, just pay attention to your life and you'll be a lot better off. I know you have this grudge against me....but, I really don't care, trust me...I don't:rolleyes:

Glen

But where would the money come from? I think the idea is great to see the top guys play, but who's gonna pay for it? Payouts are down already......removing dead money makes them even smaller.

realkingcobra
09-15-2013, 10:28 AM
But where would the money come from? I think the idea is great to see the top guys play, but who's gonna pay for it? Payouts are down already......removing dead money makes them even smaller.

Well then, I guess if you don't know...it's because YOU don't need to know:rolleyes: but trust me, there is an untapped source of money out here that is just waiting to sponsor this industry...waiting for the right moment, the right organization in this industry to put it all together...and when that happens, the flood gates will be open....soon:rolleyes:

CocoboloCowboy
09-15-2013, 10:28 AM
I bet there are a dozen players with home tables that work 40-60 hours a week that can't get off work or can't afford to play in tournaments. If they did they could become pros in a very short time. Johnnyt

Could be is correct, but in all honesty what would the reward be at the end of a career? I started playing Pool at 7 or 8 at a Boy Club of America just outside of Coral Gables, Florida (Miami Suburbs). Before the politically Boyz N GWIRLS Club Circa 2013.

I love the game, and still play it as much as I can for fun, but never saw Pool to be anything more than a recreational activity, to challenge my mind.

Have been around real Pool Rooms for ever, and honestly most of the really great players I saw had no return on their investment into a career with little long term future.

If I had a kid who was into sports, had talent, and the dedication to be a professional. I would point them to a professional sports career in Baseball, Football, Tennis, Golf etc., where the pro athletes make real money. Plus even have retirement benefit for a long enough career.

Like I said pool is a great game, but it is sure tough to make a real living from it like even some of the WWE Athletes Make in Sports Entertainment.

JMHO. From the Bench of Real Life were I sit, and observe the real world.

backplaying
09-15-2013, 10:49 AM
Howard Vickery was a "Pro" player , traveled the tour for several years, he won a couple of state championships and I believe he won 1or 2 minor tour stops.
He would be considered one of the bottom players at any major tournament within the pro ranks. So if you use him as the benchmark , yes there are probably a e hundred people or more that could be pros.
They would be sleeping in someones car at night and not eating much but they could be there.
Also they would have to be using slugs at the car wash to get entry fee money.
That guy from Italy that does trick shots and Jesse Allred are 2 of the most talented basement players I ever saw, I don't think either one of them can make a living on the tour.
It's great to fantasize about hidden players but the truth is , lots of people play great practicing or playing lambs , but when they play a real player , their game goes way down.
The big reasons are that they don't get as many shots and when they do get one , it is usually tough.
Pros have great ability, confidence and mental toughness, they have seen the best and everyone else looks easy.
Very hard to overcome for Joe working man.
As far as great working players the list has some ringers on it, I know several who did not start working until after they were great players, or their dad owned a business they "worked at" , whenever they weren't playing pool, Is that the same thing?

I never could figure out how Howard Vickery could afford to travel and play in so many top events when he couldn't beat a good short stop.

backplaying
09-15-2013, 11:00 AM
Websters dictionary:

Professional - engaged in a profession or engaging in as a profession or means of livelihood;

I agree with CJ, there is a big difference between a professional and a champion caliber player.

One quick example:
Old timers will remember this guy, I'm sure Jay seen him more than once. They called him "Brown Man", hung around Indy for years. Didn't play that well but matched up great. He was always under estimated. He would play in a brown coat, chew on a cigar and never bend over to shoot.

Most of the time, when on the road, he would have a good player with him. One of his favorites was Peru Paul. I seen Brown Man 20 times and never seen him hit a ball. Needless to say; I was one of those that didn't think the guy could play at all. So, when he asked me to play, I jumped at the chance. Do you care to guess who got the cash?

Back to the point; how do you classify a pro. Brown Man was a college grad, never worked a day in his life. Played pool and backed players. If this guy wasn't a pro pool player, what do you call him? :eek:

For some reason many here forget the definition of pro. If someone makes a living playing pool regardless of the money, if that's all they do, they are a pro player. Most wouldn't consider Richie Richardson or Benny Conway Jr. a professional pool player, even though that's all they do, but they are.

poolmouse
09-15-2013, 01:39 PM
Anyone can be a "Pro".....all you have to do is pay an entree fee these days.

Now, becoming a champion caliber player that can really win a tournament, or place in the top 5 is another story.

Well said, I think the descriptive "pro" gets tossed around too loosely.

poolmouse
09-15-2013, 01:43 PM
For some reason many here forget the definition of pro. If someone makes a living playing pool regardless of the money, if that's all they do, they are a pro player. Most wouldn't consider Richie Richardson or Benny Conway Jr. a professional pool player, even though that's all they do, but they are.

I guess that makes a homeless person a professional bum? Okaaayyyy,,,,....

Jaden
09-15-2013, 03:51 PM
There is the use to denote what someone s Profession is and there's to denote skill level. Then that second one is further broken down into gambling skill, tournament skill and just playing skill.

When the meaning behind the term is used in the wrong context, that's when the Problems start.

Jaden