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Johnnyt
09-11-2013, 07:51 AM
Shane gets a bad rap for not being able to win a world title like so many other Americans did. When was the last time an American won a real world title out of the country? When those other Americans did it the U.S had most of the top players in the world. Today monsters are coming out of the woodwork from China, PI, Taiwan, Japan, and everywhere else. It's not the same playing field. Johnnyt

gopi-1
09-11-2013, 08:00 AM
European countries are coming on strong too Johnny...

Johnnyt
09-11-2013, 08:02 AM
European countries are coming on strong too Johnny...

I Agree. Didn't mean to leave them out. Johnnyt

StraightPoolIU
09-11-2013, 08:12 AM
Earl Strickland won in 2002. Not sure where that was. Possibly Wales? Phillipines?

Pidge
09-11-2013, 08:15 AM
Earl Strickland won in 2002. Not sure where that was. Possibly Wales? Phillipines?
I think it was Wales, Cardiff.

I remember him playing Mark Williams :)

Johnnyt
09-11-2013, 08:18 AM
I think it was Wales, Cardiff.

I remember him playing Mark Williams :)

Almost 14 years ago. Most of the Asian young guns of today weren't even in their teens then. Johnnyt

gopi-1
09-11-2013, 08:22 AM
I think it was Wales, Cardiff.

I remember him playing Mark Williams :)


The most memorable (and sad) thing that happened there was when Django Bustamente played on and lost in the finals against Earl, even though he found out his daughter died a couple of days earlier...

Pidge
09-11-2013, 08:23 AM
Almost 14 years ago. Most of the Asian young guns of today weren't even in their teens then. Johnnyt
Yeah that's very true.
I see it as a good thing though that the Americans are finding it tough going on the world stage. Proves how its built in popularity that people from all around the world are able to compete at the highest level nowadays.

Us Brits experienced it with football. We invented the damn game and yet, we can't win anything today.

Pidge
09-11-2013, 08:27 AM
The most memorable (and sad) thing that happened there was when Django Bustamente played on and lost in the finals against Earl, even though he found out his daughter died a couple of days earlier...
I didn't know that. I take my hat off to him, I doubt I could ever play on after losing my daughter.

jalapus logan
09-11-2013, 08:39 AM
Just because a world beater does not beat the world every time does not mean that he is not a stone cold champion.

Johnnyt
09-11-2013, 08:39 AM
The most memorable (and sad) thing that happened there was when Django Bustamente played on and lost in the finals against Earl, even though he found out his daughter died a couple of days earlier...

I remember that. Geez, it seems like just a few years ago. Johnnyt

gopi-1
09-11-2013, 08:40 AM
I didn't know that. I take my hat off to him, I doubt I could ever play on after losing my daughter.


"The year 2002 was probably the coldest year for Bustamante, especially considering his experience at the World Pool Championships.
While the tournament was still going on, Bustamante was most shocked when he received a phone call from his wife informing him that
his daughter, who was less than a year old, had died. Devastated by this, Bustamante strongly considered forfeiting his contention at the
tournament to return to the Philippines but some people around convinced him to go on.

On his way to the final, Bustamante bested Antonio Lining in the last 16, Efren Reyes in the quarter finals and Ching Shun Yang in semis.
In the final, he met Earl Strickland, the 2-time winner of the tournament. Bustamante was leading most of the time and could have won the
title. At one point, he went for a jump shot but missed. Strickland returned to the table and won three racks in a row to win the match 17-15.

His loss in the finals of the World Championship was most definitely a big blow to him due to the fact that his lack of focus on the match cost
him the tournament. Later on, however, Bustamante regained momentum and began winning more tournaments."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Bustamante

StraightPoolIU
09-11-2013, 08:45 AM
Interesting that the finals used to be race to 17 and now is only a race to 13. The other matches in the final 64 are race to 11. I know it's a longer race than some tournaments, but it seems a little short for single elimination to me.

iusedtoberich
09-11-2013, 08:50 AM
http://www.wpapool.com/web/world_champions

Here is the past champions list. Looks like Archer, Strickland, And Varner are the only US WPA world champions, the last being in 2002 by Strickland.

Corey just got knocked out of the final 64 stage, and it looks like the only other US player, Shane, is still in as of the latest tournament chart on AZ.

sjm
09-11-2013, 10:30 AM
Yes, it's harder to beat the elite fields today than it was back in the day.

Nonetheless, a player can only be judged against his peers, and if Shane wants to demonstrate he's a cut above the players of this generation, he'll have to prove it by beating the most elite fields, which come in WPA World Championships.

The greats of this generation of players, Appleton, Immonen, Souquet, Hohmann, Orcullo, and Wu have all won a WPA World 9-ball championship, and it's time for Shane to stand up and be counted by winning one of his own.

Shane is a definite BCA Hall of Famer, but continued underachievement in WPA World Championship events will leave him outside the conversation of who is the best ever?

Wish him well, but no, he doesn't get a bad rap. He is a recognized superstar who has come up short all too often on the very biggest stages.

MOJOE
09-11-2013, 10:37 AM
SJM speaks the truth. Shane is an AMAZING player but probably won't be considered world elite status until he wins a World championship. YMMV

pwd72s
09-11-2013, 10:38 AM
Just because a world beater does not beat the world every time does not mean that he is not a stone cold champion.

Bingo! Couldn't agree more.

real bartram
09-11-2013, 10:53 AM
SJM speaks the truth. Shane is an AMAZING player but probably won't be considered world elite status until he wins a World championship. YMMV

That's weird no one in the world wants to play him for money

jalapus logan
09-11-2013, 10:55 AM
Yes, it's harder to beat the elite fields today than it was back in the day.

Nonetheless, a player can only be judged against his peers, and if Shane wants to demonstrate he's a cut above the players of this generation, he'll have to prove it by beating the most elite fields, which come in WPA World Championships.

The greats of this generation of players, Appleton, Immonen, Souquet, Hohmann, Orcullo, and Wu have all won a WPA World 9-ball championship, and it's time for Shane to stand up and be counted by winning one of his own.

Shane is a definite BCA Hall of Famer, but continued underachievement in WPA World Championship events will leave him outside the conversation of who is the best ever?

Wish him well, but no, he doesn't get a bad rap. He is a recognized superstar who has come up short all too often on the very biggest stages.

You certainly have points with merit. However my memory of the following list says this:

Appleton - wants NO part of SVB gambling at any game, especially for a long race

Immonen - was so thoroughly dominated by SVB in recent years in a big set to 100 that the results were conclusive that SVB is the better player

Souquet - while great, can't get there against SVB playing any game in a long race

Hohmann - would have an edge vs SVB in 14.1, but my $ would certainly be on SVB in any other game - also I would speculate that the tourney record between these two weighs the scales in favor of the SD Kid.

Orcullo - remains a tossup between these two in my mind, however recent TAR performances may favor SVB (damn memory failing..), in any event, I would hold onto my $ and just watch the outcome of these two battling - it's a coin flip!

Wu - can't comment, never seen him play, but have heard good things (pool needs more visibility dammit :(

StraightPoolIU
09-11-2013, 11:33 AM
Comparing long gambling sets or races to race to 11 single elimination tournaments overseas is apples and oranges IMO.


ETA: I wanted to make it clear that I'm not saying that Shane isn't a great tournament player. In fact he's one of the very very best. I was just saying that it's one thing to be feared by all in gambling matches and a completely different thing to have a win in the most prestigious tournament in pool on your resume.

real bartram
09-11-2013, 11:47 AM
Comparing long gambling sets or races to race to 11 single elimination tournaments overseas is apples and oranges IMO.


ETA: I wanted to make it clear that I'm not saying that Shane isn't a great tournament player. In fact he's one of the very very best. I was just saying that it's one thing to be feared by all in gambling matches and a completely different thing to have a win in the most prestigious tournament in pool on your resume.

So you don't think he is world elite ?
That was the post I posted on

Nostroke
09-11-2013, 11:53 AM
No one can knock him for not winning the WPC but has he won any decent tournament outside the US/Canada? He is definitely World Class but without an international title or two, history will not treat him that way. Especially pool history as written outside the USA.

Johnnyt
09-11-2013, 12:01 PM
Yes, it's harder to beat the elite fields today than it was back in the day.

Nonetheless, a player can only be judged against his peers, and if Shane wants to demonstrate he's a cut above the players of this generation, he'll have to prove it by beating the most elite fields, which come in WPA World Championships.

The greats of this generation of players, Appleton, Immonen, Souquet, Hohmann, Orcullo, and Wu have all won a WPA World 9-ball championship, and it's time for Shane to stand up and be counted by winning one of his own.

Shane is a definite BCA Hall of Famer, but continued underachievement in WPA World Championship events will leave him outside the conversation of who is the best ever?

Wish him well, but no, he doesn't get a bad rap. He is a recognized superstar who has come up short all too often on the very biggest stages.

I'm talking American players. Johnnyt

Celtic
09-11-2013, 12:03 PM
Just because a world beater does not beat the world every time does not mean that he is not a stone cold champion.

If a "world beater" never manages to beat the world in a true decked out international field in their entire career it is definitely going to change the way that person's legacy is seen 20+ years after their career has ended though.

Guys like Mosconi, Lassiter, and Earl will be remembered decades after their career has ended because of their dominance on the world stage at the top of the game. Guys who were great, but never managed to dominate the peak of competition during their career end up as side notes to the greats.

SVB is atm simply not getting it done like some of his peers. While he does great in long set challenge matches guys like Appleton, Wu, and others are winning the major international events and it is them that will ultimately be remembered first and foremost by the future generations who are born after SVB's prime has long since passed.

Johnnyt
09-11-2013, 12:08 PM
There are plenty of great and HOF American players the are talked about as world class that never won a major out of this country. Buddy Hall comes to mind as one, but there are plenty more. Johnnyt

Jaden
09-11-2013, 12:14 PM
I have to disagree with that. There are several that didn't win overseas tournaments, but more importantly all of the people winning those tourneys are playing over here and usually losing to Shane...

Jaden

pooln8r
09-11-2013, 12:15 PM
Am I out of line in saying this, but hasn't Shane also regularly beaten the same players that have won WPA Championships that came to play in the USA based tournaments he's won? I'm sure outside the USA there are monster players that don't make it here to play but should that be held against him with the Monsters he does mow over. If all that's being referenced here is that he doesn't have a world title then I get it but I wouldn't count him out for that in the future.


Good shooting to you,

Kevin

LOL.....just saw Jaden writing the same thing...great minds think a like!

Celtic
09-11-2013, 12:32 PM
There are plenty of great and HOF American players the are talked about as world class that never won a major out of this country. Buddy Hall comes to mind as one, but there are plenty more. Johnnyt

Ultimately though Buddy Hall will not be the first person mentioned from his generation when people think of the all time greats, Earl will be that guy because of his titles being the thing that creates legacy, not how dominant a guy was as a gambler. The people who have seen Hall gamble and seen the smooth stroke will eventually pass away and all that will then exist are hear-say stories with 1 or more degrees of separation and a few videos that do not show Hall as the supreme powerhouse he is often said to have been.

Sigel will be remembered more then most as well because of how many major events he actually won, Parica might have been a beast of a gambler but 50 years from now a lot more people on AZB2063 will mention Sigel when talking about the old school greats, not Parica who will be lucky to be mentioned much at all by a scant few people who have heard some stories about one of the first Filipino players to come to America who was supposedly a killer gambler.

SVB needs to win some events if he wants to be mentioned in the same breath as Appleton and Wu 50 years from now instead of being mentioned as an afterthought on those threads if at all.

TheMarsMan
09-11-2013, 12:33 PM
Shane hasn't figured out a system for traveling to other countries and dealing with:

Time difference
Language difference
Food difference
Culture difference
Hearing difficulties

I have traveled all over the world and it can be daunting when you don't speak the language and can't get a good meal. I have mentioned to him he should get a guide from here on AZ when he goes to other countries to help out with some of the differences. I am sure there are some good people who post here that could help him out greatly.

It seems to me European players are much more adept at traveling to other countries and fitting in pretty well. As Shane gets more used to this type of travel I think his results will improve. It is amazing to me when I see him play in the U.S. and elsewhere how much of a difference there is in his game. It doesn't seem to me the level of play is that much higher elsewhere, he just needs to be able to play his game in other countries to start winning more.

The bottom line is everyone plays better when they are comfortable, the trick is finding comfort all over the world.

BasementDweller
09-11-2013, 12:44 PM
How many major titles do you think Federer would have won if they played only 1 set matches?

How many Majors do you think Tiger or Jack would have won if they played only 18 hole tournaments?

In cue sports:

How many snooker titles would Stephen Hendry have won if they played races to 3 or 4?



My point is, the fields are just too tough to distinguish who the best players are in such short races. Certainly, whoever wins these tournaments has to be playing great to win. But you could be the best player of all time and all the stars would still have to align to win one of these tournaments. The races just aren't long enough in my opinion. I actually feel sorry for top pros that this is just the way it is.

StraightPoolIU
09-11-2013, 12:45 PM
So you don't think he is world elite ?
That was the post I posted on

Yeah I do think he is absolutely. I was just adding to that by saying that any world elite player's tournament resume should probably include a world championship at some point.

Nostroke
09-11-2013, 12:55 PM
There are plenty of great and HOF American players the are talked about as world class that never won a major out of this country. Buddy Hall comes to mind as one, but there are plenty more. Johnnyt

Cmon JT- There were no status events outside of the Country in Buddy's time.

Celtic
09-11-2013, 01:05 PM
My point is, the fields are just too tough to distinguish who the best players are in such short races.

And one might as well add on such easy equipment where every one of the top 50-100 players can run out an open rack with a huge success rate after a successful break and an open shot.

If the tables were tough enough the length of the races would be less of an issue. Race to 11 or 13 on a 10 foot table with 4 inch pockets would see the best player winning a significant majority of their matches.

Plus, 9-ball is a broken game with a gimmicky break and this whole world title is a pretty big crap shoot.

jay helfert
09-11-2013, 01:28 PM
That's weird no one in the world wants to play him for money

Not entirely true Chris. Shane is definitely a great player and has the respect of his peers, but the reality is that he has not won on the International stage as yet. At least not a World tournament. No one knows more than Shane that to be considered as one of the great players of his generation he needs to win a "Major." Winning the U.S. Open is a great achievement but winning a world title even more so.

It's like a golfer who wins The Players Championship, The Memorial and twenty other tournaments. If he never wins a major, like Lee Westwood, Davis Love or Colin Montgomerie they will never be considered one of the game's greats.

donny mills
09-11-2013, 01:32 PM
I would like to bet on Shane if he plays anybody in the world championships or anybody on the planet a long set. But in a tournament with a 100 guys and a bunch of them play almost as good as Shane then it's a long shot for Shane to win a bunch of races to 11. It's like a poker tournament really. He has to win a bunch of coin flips where he has 55-60% the best of it.

donny mills
09-11-2013, 01:38 PM
Not entirely true Chris. Shane is definitely a great player and has the respect of his peers, but the reality is that he has not won on the International stage as yet. At least not a World tournament. No one knows more than Shane that to be considered as one of the great players of his generation he needs to win a "Major." Winning the U.S. Open is a great achievement but winning a world title even more so.

It's like a golfer who wins The Players Championship, The Memorial and twenty other tournaments. If he never wins a major, like Lee Westwood or Colin Montgomerie they will never be considered one of the game's greats.


If he doesn't win a major then he won't be recognized as one of the greats in the eyes of people that do not know too much about pool. But in the eyes of people that do know about pool he raised the bar.

Johnnyt
09-11-2013, 01:42 PM
If he doesn't win a major then he won't be recognized as one of the greats in the eyes of people that do not know too much about pool. But in the eyes of people that do know about pool he raised the bar.

Good post and very true IMO. Johnnyt

jay helfert
09-11-2013, 01:55 PM
If he doesn't win a major then he won't be recognized as one of the greats in the eyes of people that do not know too much about pool. But in the eyes of people that do know about pool he raised the bar.

Donny, there's a reason Shane is usually the only American out there chasing these major international titles and it's not just about the money. I may not know as much about pool as you, since I'm a relative newcomer to the game, but I do know Shane very well. He WANTS to be a World Champion more than anything! He wants to add World Champion to his resume.

CreeDo
09-11-2013, 02:00 PM
Arguably the TAR-style races to 100 are a better test, but tournaments and trophies
are what get hyped and remembered, even if the race is less fair.

It would be interesting to see how many of these matches are lost by someone
who effectively did nothing wrong... no misses, no whiffed kicks, etc.
Basically do the accustats on them. I think both players will get their chances
with race to 11 and alternating break. I don't see a lot of 11-10 scores.

Can't really knock shane for a lack of a 'world' title, because IMO the
us open has enough foreign players to be considered one.
If the stats show he dogs it after flying thousands of miles,
that doesn't mean he's not a great player... just not great at handling jetlag, etc.

Shane beat a guy I never heard of but is now up against Biado.
US Open 8 ball rematch.

PS to Celtic: You really feel the cream doesn't rise to the top in this format?
It's alternate break. The break is a specific skilled shot, like a spot shot (or if you want, a trick shot).
You can argue it's "too easy" or whatever. OK, fine.

But that just means when it's your turn to break, you have no excuse to miss the shot.
You must make the ball and if you didn't, you can't cry that it was bad luck.
So you should make something, not scratch, and control the 1 or at least be at the table
when the dust settles. No excuses in this format.

Celtic
09-11-2013, 02:03 PM
If he doesn't win a major then he won't be recognized as one of the greats in the eyes of people that do not know too much about pool. But in the eyes of people that do know about pool he raised the bar.

That's great for people in this generation, but when you and SVB and all the rest of us are dead and buried no one is going to remember how good his break was or how much he dominated in long sets, they will look at the stats and numbers of major events he won, mostly on the world stage, and they will find him lacking in that one most important thing.

As Jay said, if you don't win the true majors you are not going to go down in history as one of those key players that defined their generation.

At the end of the day some people become the Moe Norman of a game while the others become Arnold Palmer or Jack Nicklaus. Moe almost became the best golfer that no one has ever heard of to play the game.

Nostroke
09-11-2013, 02:03 PM
Hope SVB gets in Qatar. If not, the All Japan Championship (more prestigious than the Japan Open imo) in November should be his next chance at a great International Title.

jalapus logan
09-11-2013, 02:13 PM
That's great for people in this generation, but when you and SVB and all the rest of us are dead and buried no one is going to remember how good his break was or how much he dominated in long sets, they will look at the stats and numbers of major events he won, mostly on the world stage, and they will find him lacking in that one most important thing.

As Jay said, if you don't win the true majors you are not going to go down in history as one of those key players that defined their generation.

At the end of the day some people become the Moe Norman of a game while the others become Arnold Palmer or Jack Nicklaus. Moe almost became the best golfer that no one has ever heard of to play the game.

Why play pool and hope for a legacy? Fact is, you will be remembered by a very small cult following here in the US, if that over time. Fact is that I can not even name a governing body in the US or elsewhere that I feel would be a good steward of pool's awards and accolades over the amount of time you mention.

Pool, as organized events go, is held together with string and used chewing gum. And that is really a disservice to SVB and every other name mentioned in this thread. For as wonderful a game that Pool is, its prominence (if it ever had any) is fading very very far from the public eye here in the US. If it weren't for AZB, I would know absolutely nothing about the goings on in the "pro" pool world. And that is too bad as well, as I am a rabid fan of the game.

Ah well, good luck to all, especially SVB and his peers. I hope that one day your efforts will be commensurately rewarded. Then again, if you like playing the game, you can never lose...screw it, rack 'em up...

jay helfert
09-11-2013, 02:15 PM
I actually disagree that being a great money player is a better yardstick of skill than being a tournament champion. The very best players (like Shane and Buddy before him) can do both, win tournaments and win for the cash.

The fact is that winning any major tournament is a real test of skill and stamina. The ability to play good under pressure match after match cannot be minimized imo. Ask any of the top tournament players and see what they say about the pressure of playing Races to Eleven in a single elimination format. I think it's much harder to win a tournament like the current World 9-Ball Championship, than it is to win several money matches.

Bottom lime, it takes a lot of HEART to win one of these major tournaments, as even Donny will attest, as he had a close call a few years back in the U.S. Open, finishing third. The very best money player of my generation was Jack Cooney. He won more than the next ten guys combined. Will he go down in history as one of the all time greats, doubtful. Was he a great player, absolutely!

Celtic
09-11-2013, 02:15 PM
Can't really knock shane for a lack of a 'world' title, because IMO the
us open has enough foreign players to be considered one.

<snip>

PS to Celtic: You really feel the cream doesn't rise to the top in this format?
It's alternate break. The break is a specific skilled shot, like a spot shot (or if you want, a trick shot).
You can argue it's "too easy" or whatever. OK, fine.

But that just means when it's your turn to break, you have no excuse to miss the shot.
You must make the ball and if you didn't, you can't cry that it was bad luck.
So you should make something, not scratch, and control the 1 or at least be at the table
when the dust settles. No excuses in this format.

So... does that simply mean that Shane is not the "cream"? Because he does not get there.

You state that a race to 100 is a better sign of who is best, and I do agree with that, and it seems that Shane wins those long sessions against the worlds best but he cannot win the titles? So is he really as good as his record in heads up races to 100 indicate and the races in the world events do not allow his significant skill to prevail? Or is he simply not as good as the other guys when it comes to playing these types of events?

You cannot have it both ways, either Shane is awesome, one of/if not the best and the races and format in these tournaments does not allow his superior skill to prevail, or the races are enough to allow the cream to rise to the top and Shane is simply not the cream of the crop in these events.

Pick one.

RedEyeJedi
09-11-2013, 04:22 PM
I believe a lot more evidence than we think may be available to the "upcoming generations" in the modern age, certainly far more than for the previous, which is held to grainy footage and weird, phony war-time compilation videos made for soldiers. We're not dealing with degradable reel recordings for god's sake, or Shane playing 10 ball at age 80.

People will be able to clearly see for what reasons Shane was a great, dominant player. The same is true of Efren -- it won't be a guy in 2080 looking at a list of his 'world titles,' it will be video of 8 rack runs, the '95 Sands, and perfectly natural 14.1, and that's all people will need to understand it. When we're all old fogies (no offence to those that already are!), our stories won't matter, truly, but only because the material evidence will be out there.

Also, if Buddy Hall is ever going to be forgotten or dismissed as the greatest 9 ball player on Earth during his time (and in my opinion, of all time), because of a lack of *bleep*ing world titles (and not lack of footage, as other posters imply), we should immediately start a club dedicated to preserving his legacy. That is just a tragedy; I've never seen a person play more beautiful pool.

And before I step off this soap box, I'll just say that I believe the chances of Shane winning a world title are pretty damn good, so this debate is moot. He has more talent than other master players, and he is an individual with powerful belief in himself, a unique kind of person. It's just a matter of time!

liakos
09-11-2013, 04:45 PM
That's weird no one in the world wants to play him for money

That's because there is a big difference when playing tournament and gambling! In case you didn't know Mr. Bartram;) Shane is as good if not better than all of them, its about the rolls and who is on that particular match! Notice I said match, not tournament! We all have bad matches, and we all have had real good matches playing extremely well and still come up short! That's the game, and that's why I love it;)

liakos
09-11-2013, 04:52 PM
If he doesn't win a major then he won't be recognized as one of the greats in the eyes of people that do not know too much about pool. But in the eyes of people that do know about pool he raised the bar.

Well said sir!!!

Nostroke
09-11-2013, 04:53 PM
I actually disagree that being a great money player is a better yardstick of skill than being a tournament champion. The very best players (like Shane and Buddy before him) can do both, win tournaments and win for the cash.

The fact is that winning any major tournament is a real test of skill and stamina. The ability to play good under pressure match after match cannot be minimized imo. Ask any of the top tournament players and see what they say about the pressure of playing Races to Eleven in a single elimination format. I think it's much harder to win a tournament like the current World 9-Ball Championship, than it is to win several money matches.

Bottom lime, it takes a lot of HEART to win one of these major tournaments, as even Donny will attest, as he had a close call a few years back in the U.S. Open, finishing third. The very best money player of my generation was Jack Cooney. He won more than the next ten guys combined. Will he go down in history as one of the all time greats, doubtful. Was he a great player, absolutely!

Good ol SJM has made this case for years. I always felt that way but i really never knew why til he put it in words so well. You're not bad yourself :)

Excellent example Jack Cooney

Tooler
09-11-2013, 05:13 PM
Just because a world beater does not beat the world every time does not mean that he is not a stone cold champion.

Very true, and his resume speaks for itself. People forget that he's only been winning big tournaments for 7 years. I'm talking from the Turning Stone victory until today.... 7 years.Think about that.And think about were he's at today.
I have no doubt, by the time he's 50, he'll own the record books, and go down as the greatest all around player ever.The dude has dedicate more time to so many facets of the game,it's ridiculous. He is a champion at everything he does. I would love to watch him play 3C after a year.


Worlds...Smurls.

JCIN
09-11-2013, 06:05 PM
Yes, it's harder to beat the elite fields today than it was back in the day.

Nonetheless, a player can only be judged against his peers, and if Shane wants to demonstrate he's a cut above the players of this generation, he'll have to prove it by beating the most elite fields, which come in WPA World Championships.

The greats of this generation of players, Appleton, Immonen, Souquet, Hohmann, Orcullo, and Wu have all won a WPA World 9-ball championship, and it's time for Shane to stand up and be counted by winning one of his own.

Shane is a definite BCA Hall of Famer, but continued underachievement in WPA World Championship events will leave him outside the conversation of who is the best ever?

Wish him well, but no, he doesn't get a bad rap. He is a recognized superstar who has come up short all too often on the very biggest stages.

I think you put too much faith in odd format tournaments held on sometimes questionable equipment. The standard for me is US Opens. Despite all its troubles of late with pay issues the format, equipment and fields have been consistent for many years.

There is the little matter of total money won as well.

Of the players you listed Shane has played three of them in long format 10 ball races. He destroyed all of them. The WPA event thing is a valid criticism and one day he will get that monkey off his back. But to say he is somehow not in the same class as those you mention because he hasn't won a WPA event is pretty silly IMO.

liakos
09-11-2013, 06:23 PM
I think you put too much faith in odd format tournaments held on sometimes questionable equipment. The standard for me is US Opens. Despite all its troubles of late with pay issues the format, equipment and fields have been consistent for many years.

There is the little matter of total money won as well.

Of the players you listed Shane has played three of them in long format 10 ball races. He destroyed all of them. The WPA event thing is a valid criticism and one day he will get that monkey off his back. But to say he is somehow not in the same class as those you mention because he hasn't won a WPA event is pretty silly IMO.

Exactly!!!

Nostroke
09-11-2013, 07:15 PM
I think you put too much faith in odd format tournaments held on sometimes questionable equipment. The standard for me is US Opens. Despite all its troubles of late with pay issues the format, equipment and fields have been consistent for many years.

There is the little matter of total money won as well.

Of the players you listed Shane has played three of them in long format 10 ball races. He destroyed all of them. The WPA event thing is a valid criticism and one day he will get that monkey off his back. But to say he is somehow not in the same class as those you mention because he hasn't won a WPA event is pretty silly IMO.

Im not saying SVB cant beat WU or KO . In fact in current form, he is probably the favorite but i'd love to see it and i'd kick in a few hundos towards travel expenses for either and i bet a few others would too if you could get either of them.

Gsitz89
09-11-2013, 07:57 PM
That's weird no one in the world wants to play him for money

Except you oh and me

real bartram
09-11-2013, 08:22 PM
I actually disagree that being a great money player is a better yardstick of skill than being a tournament champion. The very best players (like Shane and Buddy before him) can do both, win tournaments and win for the cash.

The fact is that winning any major tournament is a real test of skill and stamina. The ability to play good under pressure match after match cannot be minimized imo. Ask any of the top tournament players and see what they say about the pressure of playing Races to Eleven in a single elimination format. I think it's much harder to win a tournament like the current World 9-Ball Championship, than it is to win several money matches.

Bottom lime, it takes a lot of HEART to win one of these major tournaments, as even Donny will attest, as he had a close call a few years back in the U.S. Open, finishing third. The very best money player of my generation was Jack Cooney. He won more than the next ten guys combined. Will he go down in history as one of the all time greats, doubtful. Was he a great player, absolutely!

You can't put cooney and Svb together they are about 5 balls apart
Last time I looked Svb has won a lot of tourneys
Just ask all players who they would not want to play I bet Svb comes up a lot

real bartram
09-11-2013, 08:24 PM
I think you put too much faith in odd format tournaments held on sometimes questionable equipment. The standard for me is US Opens. Despite all its troubles of late with pay issues the format, equipment and fields have been consistent for many years.

There is the little matter of total money won as well.

Of the players you listed Shane has played three of them in long format 10 ball races. He destroyed all of them. The WPA event thing is a valid criticism and one day he will get that monkey off his back. But to say he is somehow not in the same class as those you mention because he hasn't won a WPA event is pretty silly IMO.

Some people don't get it
Like it or not he is the best player right now tourney or gambling

real bartram
09-11-2013, 08:29 PM
If he doesn't win a major then he won't be recognized as one of the greats in the eyes of people that do not know too much about pool. But in the eyes of people that do know about pool he raised the bar.

You are smarter then you look

Playin4Dinner
09-11-2013, 09:31 PM
Yes, it's harder to beat the elite fields today than it was back in the day.

Nonetheless, a player can only be judged against his peers, and if Shane wants to demonstrate he's a cut above the players of this generation, he'll have to prove it by beating the most elite fields, which come in WPA World Championships.

The greats of this generation of players, Appleton, Immonen, Souquet, Hohmann, Orcullo, and Wu have all won a WPA World 9-ball championship, and it's time for Shane to stand up and be counted by winning one of his own.

Shane is a definite BCA Hall of Famer, but continued underachievement in WPA World Championship events will leave him outside the conversation of who is the best ever?

Wish him well, but no, he doesn't get a bad rap. He is a recognized superstar who has come up short all too often on the very biggest stages.

Below is the payouts from last years open... Would you consider this field elite???

1st Shane Van Boening $25,000
2nd Dennis Orcollo $15,000
3rd Alex Pagulayan $10,000
4th Efren Reyes $6,000
5th/6th Ronnie Alcano $4,000
5th/6th Jose Parica $4,000
7th/8th Jun Lin Chang $3,000
7th/8th Darren Appleton $3,000
9th/12th Neils Feijen $2,000
9th/12th Jayson Shaw $2,000
9th/12th Johnny Archer $2,000
9th/12th He Wen Li $2,000
13th/16th Wang Can $1,800
13th/16th Tom D'Alfonso $1,800
13th/16th Corey Deuel $1,800
13th/16th Yukio Akagariyama $1,800
17th/24th Shawn Putnam $1,600
17th/24th Raj Hundal $1,600
17th/24th Nick Van den Berg $1,600
17th/24th Chris Melling $1,600
17th/24th Earl Strickland $1,600
17th/24th Jin Hu Dang $1,600
17th/24th Huidji See $1,600
17th/24th Albin Ouschan $1,600
25th/32nd Jason Klatt $1,400
25th/32nd Ko-Pin Ye $1,400
25th/32nd Louis Ulrich $1,400
25th/32nd Haitao Liu $1,400
25th/32nd Oscar Dominguez $1,400
25th/32nd Brandon Shuff $1,400
25th/32nd Daryl Peach $1,400
25th/32nd David Alcaide $1,400

Bold = former WPA World Champions

Few more former world champions that attended and cashed Mika, Thorsten, Ralf, Boyes and Busty.... Also believe that Ortmann and Varner both attended...

Could be wrong on a few or missed a few, but my count here is 18 world champions at the last us open that SVB snapped off...

BeiberLvr
09-11-2013, 09:39 PM
So out of the 22 past WPA World 9 Ball winners, only 3 have been repeat winners. I think this speaks highly of how much variance is involved in this tournament.

SVB might just be the best player in this tournament, but skill doesn't always outrun luck.

seven_7days
09-11-2013, 09:45 PM
Below is the payouts from last years open... Would you consider this field elite???

1st Shane Van Boening $25,000
2nd Dennis Orcollo $15,000
3rd Alex Pagulayan $10,000
4th Efren Reyes $6,000
5th/6th Ronnie Alcano $4,000
5th/6th Jose Parica $4,000
7th/8th Jun Lin Chang $3,000
7th/8th Darren Appleton $3,000
*7th/8th Deathball $3,000
9th/12th Neils Feijen $2,000
9th/12th Jayson Shaw $2,000
9th/12th Johnny Archer $2,000
9th/12th He Wen Li $2,000
13th/16th Wang Can $1,800
13th/16th Tom D'Alfonso $1,800
13th/16th Corey Deuel $1,800
13th/16th Yukio Akagariyama $1,800
17th/24th Shawn Putnam $1,600
17th/24th Raj Hundal $1,600
17th/24th Nick Van den Berg $1,600
17th/24th Chris Melling $1,600
17th/24th Earl Strickland $1,600
17th/24th Jin Hu Dang $1,600
17th/24th Huidji See $1,600
17th/24th Albin Ouschan $1,600
25th/32nd Jason Klatt $1,400
25th/32nd Ko-Pin Ye $1,400
25th/32nd Louis Ulrich $1,400
25th/32nd Haitao Liu $1,400
25th/32nd Oscar Dominguez $1,400
25th/32nd Brandon Shuff $1,400
25th/32nd Daryl Peach $1,400
25th/32nd David Alcaide $1,400

*Not Elite.

NYC cue dude
09-11-2013, 10:41 PM
I think you put too much faith in odd format tournaments held on sometimes questionable equipment. The standard for me is US Opens. Despite all its troubles of late with pay issues the format, equipment and fields have been consistent for many years.

There is the little matter of total money won as well.

Of the players you listed Shane has played three of them in long format 10 ball races. He destroyed all of them. The WPA event thing is a valid criticism and one day he will get that monkey off his back. But to say he is somehow not in the same class as those you mention because he hasn't won a WPA event is pretty silly IMO.

No one is saying that Shane is not a great player, especially Stu. I think that most knowledgable pool players and fans know that Shane is the best player currently on the planet. What the thread is about is how history will treat Shane if he goes without a "World" title. It's is very possible that Shane's standing will be greatly diminished without one, regardless of his gambling prowess or the ubiquitous availability of video recordings. When everything is said and done, people always point to the record books. That Shane is likely the best player ever to yield a cue will be lost a century from now, without a single "major" victory.

Creating a remedy is another subject entirely. But I would suggest to him that dedicating himself by acclimating to the environment, weeks in advance of an event (much the same way as fighters do), may be a prudent solution. It's irrefutable that something occurs once that plane crosses an ocean. Being comfortable (without jet lag) with where you sleep, eat and play, builds confidence among other things.

punter
09-11-2013, 11:04 PM
I really don't get the idea that years from now, no one will be able to know of Shane's accomplishments. Is the internet going away? Will there be less access to history in the future? I don't think so. The point about no world titles maybe valid but Shane, more than likely, will have plenty of chances to add one of those.

Arnold Palmer never did win the PGA, and he will always be the King.

jay helfert
09-11-2013, 11:52 PM
You can't put cooney and Svb together they are about 5 balls apart
Last time I looked Svb has won a lot of tourneys
Just ask all players who they would not want to play I bet Svb comes up a lot

You never saw Jack play One Pocket in his prime, and he was triple smart too. A young Jack Cooney would have got the money from Shane, some way! If you made a game with Jack for big money you were in trouble! And that's the bottom line, isn't it Chris?

More players say Dennis then Shane. Of course no one has to like it on that TAR table. That's like Shane's home court. Look, I love Shane's game but is he unbeatable, no way. In Manila, he is in no hurry to play Francisco (who has beaten him multiple times), Lee Vann, Alex or Dennis. He picks his spots just like you do. I've seen Shane turn down games, THIS YEAR!

real bartram
09-11-2013, 11:58 PM
You never saw Jack play One Pocket in his prime, and he was triple smart too. A young Jack Cooney would have got the money from Shane, some way! If you made a game with Jack for big money you were in trouble! And that's the bottom line, isn't it Chris?

More players say Dennis then Shane. Of course no one has to like it on that TAR table. That's like Shane's home court. Look, I love Shane's game but is he unbeatable, no way. In Manila, he is in no hurry to play Francisco (who has beaten him multiple times), Lee Vann, Alex or Dennis. He picks his spots just like you do. I've seen Shane turn down games, THIS YEAR!

Svb would rob jack playing any game get real
Anytime anyone plays Svb ill bet on him

jay helfert
09-12-2013, 12:02 AM
Some people don't get it
Like it or not he is the best player right now tourney or gambling

That may be true but he has to prove it on the world stage, not in his own back yard. If Shane truly was the best player in the world, he would have won one of these major International tournaments by now. Of course, imo he is still improving and may just be reaching his peak now.

To be a world champion you must have a single mindedness of purpose, with no outside distractions. This may have been Shane's downfall in the past. As for me, I'd love to see Shane win a big one like this. It would affirm his place among pool's elite players. Plus I REALLY like the kid! :clapping:

jay helfert
09-12-2013, 12:08 AM
Svb would rob jack playing any game get real
Anytime anyone plays Svb ill bet on him

I was talking about Jack in his prime, 20-30 years ago. I guess you missed my point. Jack knew how to get the money and someone like you should appreciate that fact. Jack was making six figure scores 40 years ago when everyone else was playing $2-500 sets! HELLO!

real bartram
09-12-2013, 12:08 AM
That may be true but he has to prove it on the world stage, not in his own back yard. If Shane truly was the best player in the world, he would have won one of these major International tournaments by now. Of course, imo he is still improving and may just be reaching his peak now.

To be a world champion you must have a single mindedness of purpose, with no outside distractions. This may have been Shane's downfall in the past. As for me, I'd love to see Shane win a big one like this. It would affirm his place among pool's elite players. Plus I REALLY like the kid! :clapping:

For me his tourney record speaks for it self
I would like to see another great player play him a long set of 10 ball
After what he did to orcollo not sure anyone will want to try him

jay helfert
09-12-2013, 12:11 AM
For me his tourney record speaks for it self
I would like to see another great player play him a long set of 10 ball
After what he did to orcollo not sure anyone will want to try him

Tell you what, if Shane plays Dennis again in Manila, we have a bet. An automatic $500 bet if they play over there. Bet?

real bartram
09-12-2013, 12:12 AM
Tell you what, if Shane plays Dennis again in Manila, we have a bet. An automatic $500 bet if they play over there. Bet?

No but if they play in the USA you can have this bet

jay helfert
09-12-2013, 12:14 AM
No but if they play in the USA you can have this bet

Ha! Ha! Made you stutter. But I'm a gambling man so if they match up over here and it's not a TAR match you have a bet. See, I'm easy. :)
What I really would like to see is these two guys play Rotation. Then you will really find out who plays the best. That could be a TAR match.

P.S. And I've still got the five ball right? In 9-Ball. And I'm the same age as the ancient Mr. Cooney, so you should be stealing!

JumpinJoe
09-12-2013, 12:16 AM
You 2 gamblers, one of you go take my bet on the world 9 ball event. It's posted in the action room. Event starts in 45 minutes.

I want 4 players, you can have the other 28 players, which includes DAZ and SVB

real bartram
09-12-2013, 12:17 AM
Ha! Ha! Made you stutter. But I'm a gambling man so if they match up over here and it's not a TAR match you have a bet. See, I'm easy. :)

P.S. And I've still got the five ball right? In 9-Ball.

You have always had the 5 ball
For our bet all we have to do is let the other guy know that they are playing
All I need to know is that they are playing before they play and it's a bet
When do you want the 5 ball
And what's the bet

real bartram
09-12-2013, 12:19 AM
You 2 gamblers, one of you go take my bet on the world 9 ball event. It's posted in the action room. Event starts in 45 minutes.

I want 4 players, you can have the other 28 players, which includes DAZ and SVB

I don't have PayPal and don't even know who's in the tourney ill pass

JumpinJoe
09-12-2013, 12:21 AM
I don't have PayPal and don't even know who's in the tourney ill pass

Final 32 bracket

http://qbsf.qa/en/downloads/2web_final_round.pdf

jay helfert
09-12-2013, 12:22 AM
You have always had the 5 ball
For our bet all we have to do is let the other guy know that they are playing
All I need to know is that they are playing before they play and it's a bet
When do you want the 5 ball
And what's the bet

We WILL play this game! Sorry but the last couple of times I saw you I was either working or sick (getting old is a biitch if you haven't heard already :wink:). Just like we said before, Ten Ahead for $500, a hustlers game of pool. I just don't feel comfortable betting any higher since I never play much any more, maybe once or twice a year do I play for money and it's usually 40 or 50 a game One Pocket. I haven't played 9-Ball for money in at least 20 years!!! (Caveat - I did play a 9-Ball match in Manila for 2,000P ($50) about three weeks ago).

P.S. We've got a deal on Shane vs. Dennis if it happens. Ten Ball or One Pocket, either way. If they play we are betting $500, it's that simple. If they match up to play Rotation on TAR you also have a bet.

CJ Wiley
09-12-2013, 12:23 AM
Shane gets a bad rap for not being able to win a world title like so many other Americans did. When was the last time an American won a real world title out of the country? When those other Americans did it the U.S had most of the top players in the world. Today monsters are coming out of the woodwork from China, PI, Taiwan, Japan, and everywhere else. It's not the same playing field. Johnnyt

You still have to beat the same amount of players and if you look at who Earl beat to win they would stack up....no matter who you're playing you have to play well to win, and races to 9.....well, that's going to take some luck too. On our PCA Tour we played a race to 15 and 11 in the TV matches.....TV matches have a LOT more pressure, so the shorter races are exciting and one miss could cost you the match.

real bartram
09-12-2013, 12:26 AM
We WILL play this game! Sorry but the last couple of times I saw you I was either working or sick (getting old is a biitch if you haven't heard already :wink:). Just like we said before, Ten Ahead for $500, a hustlers game of pool. I just don't feel comfortable betting any higher since I never play much any more, maybe once or twice a year do I play for money and it's usually 40 or 50 a game One Pocket. I haven't played 9-Ball for money in at least 20 years!!!

Sounds good
Good luck to me

Lumocolor
09-12-2013, 12:27 AM
How about this compromise...

Shane is the best in the world while playing anyone in the world, on US soil.

real bartram
09-12-2013, 12:28 AM
How about this compromise...

Shane is the best in the world while playing anyone in the world, on US soil.

Works for me

jay helfert
09-12-2013, 12:30 AM
Sounds good
Good luck to me

Good luck to you too my friend. By the way I like your style of no nonsense gambling. You put up your money and get down on the table and play. You are a sportsman too, no sharking or BS when you play. I like playing a guy like you. If a guy is an asshole I won't play him, even if I have the nuts. I don't need the aggravation to win a few bucks. At this stage of my life I play for the game, not the money.

JumpinJoe
09-12-2013, 12:31 AM
How about this compromise...

Shane is the best in the world while playing anyone in the world, on US soil.

I'll take Brumback playin SVB, EVEN
Playing in the U.S.

real bartram
09-12-2013, 12:31 AM
Good luck to you too my friend. By the way I like your style of no nonsense gambling. You put up your money and get down on the table and play. You are a sportsman too, no sharking or BS when you play. I like playing a guy like you. If a guy is an asshole I won't play him, even if I have the nuts. I don't need the aggravation to win a few bucks. At this stage of my life I play for the game, not the money.

Thanks
I know playing you will be the same

jay helfert
09-12-2013, 12:37 AM
Thanks
I know playing you will be the same

Yep, I'm just like you. When it's your turn I'll be standing still on the sidelines, just watching you shoot. And I won't be talking to anyone either when you're shooting. I'm not one of those guys who runs around the table to see if you're hooked. It really doesn't matter to me since it's still your turn to shoot. To me that's an amateur move.

jay helfert
09-12-2013, 12:44 AM
Final 32 bracket

http://qbsf.qa/en/downloads/2web_final_round.pdf

Brent, I'll take Lee Vann, Dennis, Wu and Shane and you've got the field for 100. A little sweat bet :rolleyes:

JumpinJoe
09-12-2013, 12:46 AM
Brent, I'll take Lee Vann, Dennis, Wu and Shane and you've got the field for 100. A little sweat bet :rolleyes:

Nah. I'm pullin for Dennis, can't do that.

voiceofreason
09-12-2013, 01:09 AM
Earl Strickland won in 2002. Not sure where that was. Possibly Wales? Phillipines?

It was Cardiff. I was there that year.

It was notable in that it was the first year that Darren Appleton played in it - coming through qualifying school. Chris Melling also qualified through qualifying school that year too plus another unknown (on here) English pool player, Phil Harrison..

My editor and I went to interview Steve Davis for a UK website. After the interview we popped up to the press room to see Luke Richie (matchroom press officer) and get up to date with events and happened to notice a beer fridge stacked top to bottom with the primary sponsors beers. Some weird and unusual brand as I recall, plus a load of crates stacked next too.

"Help yourself guys, it's all freebies"

About three hours later, the entire press team and us were completely bollocksed. We wandered down to the arena, which was closed to the public by then and watched the great Efren Reyes beat someone (I cannot recall) for 1,000 at one pocket.

Serious hangover the next morning.

IIRC, Chris Melling got through to the semi finals that year..

EDIT - was not correct on Melling, he got to 9th in the 2001 event:

http://www.csns.ca/Charts/WPC01F64.pdf

Was correct on Appleton though:

http://www.csns.ca/Charts/WPC02F64.pdf

I claim a free bun please!

CreeDo
09-12-2013, 09:22 AM
You cannot have it both ways, either Shane is awesome, one of/if not the best and the races and format in these tournaments does not allow his superior skill to prevail, or the races are enough to allow the cream to rise to the top and Shane is simply not the cream of the crop in these events.

Pick one.

Nope, not that simple.
'Best' doesn't mean shane beats every other player 100% of the time.
'Best' means shane beats them more than 50% of the time.

You can look at individual games, or short sets, or long sets.
But no matter how you package the race, there is always a chance the weaker player can win.
It might surprise you how big that chance is, and how little the race length affects it.

Let's say Shane has a 2% edge on Alex in 10b (they're tied 1-1 in TAR races to 100).
If they played a bunch of races to 11, shane would win 57% of them. Alex would still win 43% of them.

"OK so that race is too short. But if we lengthen the race then the better player should definitely win".
Surprisingly, if you lengthen the race all the way to 100, Shane's odds jump to 71%.
But alex still gets there 29% of the time.

So, even lengthening the set to 100 isn't enough to DEFINITIVELY answer who is best,
and no multi-player tournament can do race to 100 realistically anyway.

So in that sense you're right: alternate break easy-9-ball-break doesn't absolutely prove who's best.
Neither does race to 100 with no magic rack and 10 ball.
Neither does a 10 foot table, 4 inch pockets, and so on.

Tournaments cannot definitively prove who is best, unless you want to do race to 1000 or something
and have it last a full year. All they can prove is who's playing best THAT DAY.
And to fairly prove that, both players must get chances.
Each player getting 10 breaks, and a fairly predictable ball on the break, fits the bill.

shanesinnott
09-12-2013, 09:37 AM
Brent, I'll take Lee Vann, Dennis, Wu and Shane and you've got the field for 100. A little sweat bet :rolleyes:

I'll take that bet now ;) (I'm surprised that none of the 4 Jay picked made the quarter finals)

Celtic
09-12-2013, 10:00 AM
Nope, not that simple.
'Best' doesn't mean shane beats every other player 100% of the time.
'Best' means shane beats them more than 50% of the time.

That kind of proves my point that the sets are not properly showing who the best player is enough. If the best player is only seeing a 60/40 win percentage against a weaker opponent in a tournament format then that sport needs to adjust things. Federer against the 20'th best tennis player in the world when he was in his prime was a very strong favorite to win that match, not 60/40, more like 90/10, and that is how it should be.

Pool needs to fix things so that it is 90/10, not 60/40. They can do it many different ways and likely the correct path would be a blend of tougher equipment and adjusting the sets to best of 3 sets race to 9/win by two in each set or something like that.

If the tournaments are not allowing the best player to prevail in their matches against weaker players the vast majority of the time then the tournament format is broken. It IS that simple.

JD_Hogg
09-12-2013, 10:04 AM
I'd like to see best 2 out of 3 sets, alternate break, win by 2 ----- race to 9 each set

Celtic
09-12-2013, 11:30 AM
I'd like to see best 2 out of 3 sets, alternate break, win by 2 ----- race to 9 each set

Me too. There are people who think matches would go too long due to prolonged tie breakers but the rare moments you get those long grueling alternate break battles where people are trying to hold serve (their break) in order to stay alive the excitement the audience would have would be higher then at any other moment in a match. The tie breakers in tennis are win by 2 and they are intense, the tie breakers in golf can go many many holes but there is never a dull moment watching two pro golfers playing heads up sudden death golf trying to win that skin that wins the tournament.

That should IMO be one of the first changes done to pool and TBH it would be very easy to implement and anyone thinking of running a pro event should seriously consider switching over to doing that from now on as a start to fixing some of the many things broken in professional pool.

JD_Hogg
09-12-2013, 11:54 AM
Me too. There are people who think matches would go too long due to prolonged tie breakers but the rare moments you get those long grueling alternate break battles where people are trying to hold serve (their break) in order to stay alive the excitement the audience would have would be higher then at any other moment in a match. The tie breakers in tennis are win by 2 and they are intense, the tie breakers in golf can go many many holes but there is never a dull moment watching two pro golfers playing heads up sudden death golf trying to win that skin that wins the tournament.

That should IMO be one of the first changes done to pool and TBH it would be very easy to implement and anyone thinking of running a pro event should seriously consider switching over to doing that from now on as a start to fixing some of the many things broken in professional pool.



and you could then get rid of the round robin and just go single elimination right from the get go. Seed the event if possible too.

Celtic
09-12-2013, 12:05 PM
and you could then get rid of the round robin and just go single elimination right from the get go. Seed the event if possible too.

Ultimately that is exactly the direction I would take if I were in charge. The seeding would require a proper tour and professional player status (Q School) to materialize.

CreeDo
09-12-2013, 12:47 PM
That kind of proves my point that the sets are not properly showing who the best player is enough. If the best player is only seeing a 60/40 win percentage against a weaker opponent in a tournament format then that sport needs to adjust things. Federer against the 20'th best tennis player in the world when he was in his prime was a very strong favorite to win that match, not 60/40, more like 90/10, and that is how it should be.

You're talking #1 vs. #20, but shane vs. alex is more like #1 vs #2/#3.
But anyway, I get what you're saying. You'd like to see the better player come out on top 90%
of the time, if possible.

My point is, due to the funny nature of pool (one player often doesn't get to play), that's just not realistic.
Say we changed the tables and pockets to 10' and 4", and that gives one player a 55/45 edge,
where before he was 2% the underdog.

In a race to 11 we're still at 70/30.
To reach 90/10 we'd need like a race to 80. It's just not realistic.
No point in going nuts on the equipment when it barely changes anything.
This is just the nature of tournaments: They must be kept short, and short = less fair for the better player.

donny mills
09-12-2013, 01:08 PM
Goes down in history? I would way rather win the us open vs the world championships. The us open i saw on espn as a kid and I never even heard of the wpc til about 10 years ago. I've never seen the wpc on tv in my life. I don't know about other countries. So I think anyone who wins the us open twice is gonna be remembered. Lol

real bartram
09-12-2013, 09:22 PM
Goes down in history? I would way rather win the us open vs the world championships. The us open i saw on espn as a kid and I never even heard of the wpc til about 10 years ago. I've never seen the wpc on tv in my life. I don't know about other countries. So I think anyone who wins the us open twice is gonna be remembered. Lol

Like I said Donny you are smarter then you look

Snapshot9
09-12-2013, 10:17 PM
and I believe that most American pro players fall short on the world stage because of a lack of discipline. Pool is a sport, and to play a sport well, you have to pattern your whole life around it. You have to eat right, not drink too much, get your rest, stay in good physical shape and strong, and train, train, and train, and stay focused on your goals.

I can see the difference everytime an European pro plays an American pro.

cueman
09-12-2013, 10:19 PM
The WPA is not the only World Championships that there are out there and if memory serves me right Shane won a non WPA World 10 Ball champoionship.

AtLarge
09-12-2013, 10:39 PM
The WPA is not the only World Championships that there are out there and if memory serves me right Shane won a non WPA World 10 Ball champoionship.

Yes, the Predator World 10-Ball Championship, 2007.

JMuck
09-12-2013, 11:16 PM
and I believe that most American pro players fall short on the world stage because of a lack of discipline. Pool is a sport, and to play a sport well, you have to pattern your whole life around it. You have to eat right, not drink too much, get your rest, stay in good physical shape and strong, and train, train, and train, and stay focused on your goals.

I can see the difference everytime an European pro plays an American pro.

Shane is more disciplined than maybe anybody in pool and many other sports.He knows its a grind.There is no question in Shanes mind that doing what he is doing is exactly the way it is supposed to be.His handicap is not a burden,it is a gift.Talent can be defined in many ways and Shanes may be that he can remain comfortable at a table for long periods of time tinkering with many aspects of the game.

Shane is not interested in groups of people making conversation,he'll twiddell his thumbs for a while but he is way more comfortable at a table and will bolt.He will leave this tournament,get some feedback from family and friends, break everything down and apply them to his game and move on.

voiceofreason
09-13-2013, 02:30 AM
How many major titles do you think Federer would have won if they played only 1 set matches?

How many Majors do you think Tiger or Jack would have won if they played only 18 hole tournaments?

In cue sports:

How many snooker titles would Stephen Hendry have won if they played races to 3 or 4?



My point is, the fields are just too tough to distinguish who the best players are in such short races. Certainly, whoever wins these tournaments has to be playing great to win. But you could be the best player of all time and all the stars would still have to align to win one of these tournaments. The races just aren't long enough in my opinion. I actually feel sorry for top pros that this is just the way it is.

By mentioning Hendry's name you have answered your own point. If Hendry had never won a world title and was simply "the best snooker player over really really long matches and/or for money" you would likely have never heard of him and never used him as an example.

World Champion is World Champion, be it whatever the distance, whatever the sport and whatever the strength of the field..

Johnnyt
09-13-2013, 02:35 AM
Yes, the Predator World 10-Ball Championship, 2007.

That was in Jacksonville, FL probably run by Dragon. I don't think it was even sanctioned. CW calls all his tournaments world. Johnnyt

AtLarge
09-13-2013, 07:41 AM
That was in Jacksonville, FL probably run by Dragon. I don't think it was even sanctioned. CW calls all his tournaments world. Johnnyt

It was a very strong field: http://www.azbilliards.com/tours_and_events/142-predator-international-championship/1681-predator-world-10-ball-championship-2007/results/

SakuJack
09-13-2013, 07:49 AM
By mentioning Hendry's name you have answered your own point. If Hendry had never won a world title and was simply "the best snooker player over really really long matches and/or for money" you would likely have never heard of him and never used him as an example.

World Champion is World Champion, be it whatever the distance, whatever the sport and whatever the strength of the field..

Agree. And a short race measures nerve more than a long set, in my opinion - and I prefer playing long sets.

You start making the races too long and you just have the player with the best endurance, not the best player.

Johnnyt
09-13-2013, 07:53 AM
It was a very strong field: http://www.azbilliards.com/tours_and_events/142-predator-international-championship/1681-predator-world-10-ball-championship-2007/results/

My thread stated out of the country. Johnnyt

cueman
09-13-2013, 08:03 AM
That was in Jacksonville, FL probably run by Dragon. I don't think it was even sanctioned. CW calls all his tournaments world. Johnnyt

He does not call all his tournaments World Championships. But he promoted that one as such when almost no one else was even promoting 10 ball as an option. So it is a legitimate World Championship title. Why should someone donate many thousands of dollars to an organization for their sanctioning instead of paying that money back to the players?

Grady Mathews put on a World 14.1 championship many years ago. So has Charlie many times.

You seem to really be a big supporter of the WPA. You should probably send them a big donation to help them continue doing what they do. If not then don't knock others who choose not to.

Johnnyt
09-13-2013, 09:09 AM
He does not call all his tournaments World Championships. But he promoted that one as such when almost no one else was even promoting 10 ball as an option. So it is a legitimate World Championship title. Why should someone donate many thousands of dollars to an organization for their sanctioning instead of paying that money back to the players?

Grady Mathews put on a World 14.1 championship many years ago. So has Charlie many times.

You seem to really be a big supporter of the WPA. You should probably send them a big donation to help them continue doing what they do. If not then don't knock others who choose not to.

Wow. I must have pissed off another CW nut hugger. :eek:. Johnnyt