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View Full Version : Raking the balls - unsportsmanlike or not??


Magyar19
09-11-2013, 08:41 PM
Me and my friend were politely arguing this last night. He told me his opponent got mad cuz he raked the balls. I said I didn't blame him since I don't like to see it done and it irks me too. I told him he should stop doing it since some people frown on it but his attitude was "Oh well"

KoolKat9Lives
09-11-2013, 08:52 PM
Me and my friend were politely arguing this last night. He told me his opponent got mad cuz he raked the balls. I said I didn't blame him since I don't like to see it done and it irks me too. I told him he should stop doing it since some people frown on it but his attitude was "Oh well"

Why did he rake them? There's multiple scenarios this could happen.

If I'm gambling and my opponent unscrews while I have balls on the table yet, then I might rake.

If my opponent is surely going to get out on the table, I won't rake, I'll just say "that's good".

More info please.

Magyar19
09-11-2013, 09:15 PM
Why did he rake them? There's multiple scenarios this could happen.

If I'm gambling and my opponent unscrews while I have balls on the table yet, then I might rake.

If my opponent is surely going to get out on the table, I won't rake, I'll just say "that's good".

More info please.

My friend fouled and the guy had BIH on the 8 so he gathered all the balls up and racked.

poolguy4u
09-11-2013, 09:50 PM
My friend fouled and the guy had BIH on the 8 so he gathered all the balls up and racked.

Nothing wrong with that. Not to many people out there are going to miss an eight ball with ball in hand.:thumbup:

NYC cue dude
09-11-2013, 10:18 PM
With your opponents table. Period. There is no class in that gesture.

Extending courtesy is another story but should always be done verbally. "Good enough" "not necessary", or "that's good" is acceptable.

It's never ok, IMO, to touch the balls on the table while conceding a game.

justadub
09-12-2013, 03:19 AM
I guess I understand where some of you folks are coming from. I just don't see this particular situation as too offensive.

I suppose the other player wanted the satisfaction of actually dropping the eight. I guess I can understand that. Still, it doesn't seem to be too out of line to me

Ryansnell
09-12-2013, 03:41 AM
Not out of line… period

Inaction
09-12-2013, 03:54 AM
Not out of line… period

How about this example?

A player out of sw minnesota who is known for his slow methodical play was in a match where he would break soft and then keep playing safe until the table was wide open. I believe in one game, three of each were made and the table was still open.
He was ahead 2 - 0 on a race to 3 when he missed a safe and left the table open. He then raked the balls so his opponent would not have a opportunity to get any momentum going.

Might be smart strategy, but unsportsmanlike in my opinion.

voiceofreason
09-12-2013, 03:58 AM
Raking the balls is a concession is it not?

An opponent can do that for me all day long, rack after rack for all I care - whether for cash, for fun or in a tournament..

DallasHopps
09-12-2013, 04:11 AM
I generally concede verbally or with a thumbs-up, etc. On the rare occasion my opponent desires to concede a game to me, I don't care how its done as long as I'm not mid stroke or something.

In practice or fun games, I always let the person I'm playing know that I want to finish the game if its me shooting. I need to practice not screwing up on the money ball all I can.

ND Fan
09-12-2013, 04:48 AM
Offensive? I generally just say Thank you. What is wrong with a concession? I think we're getting too damned sensitive . WTF!? man up and play the next rack.

Tramp Steamer
09-12-2013, 05:05 AM
It's good by me unless it's done in a fit of anger, which it rarely is. :)

Bob Jewett
09-12-2013, 07:33 AM
Raking the balls is a concession is it not?
...
And in tournaments around here, if you concede balls you lose the next game as well. I think that's a good rule for tournaments.

poolguy4u
09-12-2013, 08:13 AM
And in tournaments around here, if you concede balls you lose the next game as well. I think that's a good rule for tournaments.

:wink:


Now that would be unsportsman like to accept a win that way.

I'd even put that in the class of cheating.

NYC cue dude
09-12-2013, 08:27 AM
:wink:


Now that would be unsportsman like to accept a win that way.

I'd even put that in the class of cheating.

Area are like that. First time it's a warning, second time you lose the next game. This includes the pro events too.

Ken_4fun
09-12-2013, 09:08 AM
I do it as a shark move.

I do it on purpose on an out he should make and then the next time he might think I am going to do it and I wont.

For me its purely a shark move, I do it.

Ken

purpdrag
09-12-2013, 09:09 AM
I'm going to throw my $.02 because I was recently thinking about this very topic. My stroke has been a little shaky lately so the the opportunity to make that last easy shot gives me a practice stroke to help me get prepared for the next game.

So I don't like it when people sweep the last ball to give me the game. The sportsmanlike and respectful way to give the last ball is to say "it's good". At least I have the choice to say, "no ... I'll shoot it", which I almost never do because that itself could be seen as kind of a dick move. "It's good" is a sign of respect for my game and also just to save time, so it's cool and somewhat expected amongst the better players.

Also, after some thought on the ball sweeping thing, I decided that eventhough I disagree with it, it doesn't really bother me either. I'll take the win and move on trying to do my best in the next game. And by the way I would NEVER have a problem with it in the last game of the match, but nobody rakes it then because there is no more racking to do.

DJKeys
09-12-2013, 09:11 AM
And in tournaments around here, if you concede balls you lose the next game as well. I think that's a good rule for tournaments.

I like this rule.

I never concede any game. I have seen the 8 ball missed with ball in hand because the player was overconfident, not concentrating, and miscues, or over-juiced the CB for fun.

I also think it is really bad for your shaft to "rake" even one ball and never do that either.

-dj

Mikey Town
09-12-2013, 09:46 AM
I don't understand a lot of these responses.

If someone wants to give me a ball, or two, to concede a game, I don't really care how they do it. Rake the balls, concede verbally, break down your cue and run out of the room screaming... it all works for me. As long as you don't make the mistake of expecting that opponent to concede in a similar situation in the future, then it shouldn't affect you at all.

If someone gives you a nice gift for your birthday, do you say "thank you" and accept it, or do you complain because it wasn't wrapped the way you would have preferred?

No need to be so sensitive... take the game, break the balls and do it again.

KoolKat9Lives
09-12-2013, 09:51 AM
In the deciding Ryder Cup match between Nicklaus and Tony Jackelin, years ago, Nicklaus conceded the match and Cup winning putt. It was definitely outside the leather. That was considered one of the finest displays of sportsmanship in golf's history.

FWIW.

CreeDo
09-12-2013, 10:20 AM
Never been offended by a raked ball in my life. Seems oversensitive to get peeved by it.
I love getting a free pass on shooting the last ball(s). I also love seeing my opponent get mad
and rake a bunch of balls because he's too impatient to stay in his chair.
Either one of those things makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside.

Could someone do it as a move? I guess. Pool players like to see "moves" in every little thing.
Taking a piss, eating french fries, grabbing the chalk, playing on the phone.
"he denied me hitting 4 balls so I couldn't get warm!"
...it probably wasn't a move and you probably aren't going to get in stroke hitting a handful of balls.
Not shooting those few balls isn't a valid excuse for losing a set.

alstl
09-12-2013, 10:27 AM
Offensive? I generally just say Thank you. What is wrong with a concession? I think we're getting too damned sensitive . WTF!? man up and play the next rack.

I agree. My favorite was a match between Nevel and Deuel a few years ago where Deuel frustrated Nevel with his soft break and Nevel started raking the balls with several balls left on the table.

I saw no indication Deuel was offended, probably overjoyed at having gotten Nevel upset.

randyg
09-12-2013, 10:29 AM
Happened to our team at the BCAPL Nationals. The opponent raked all the balls into one side of the table. The ref called Un-sportsman like conduct and awarded the game to us. Soon after that the same guy was kicked out of the Tournament.

randyg

1outofthemoney
09-12-2013, 10:38 AM
Perfectly fine with me. I'll just grab my break cue and get ready for the next game.

supergreenman
09-12-2013, 11:20 AM
Unsportsman like for a number of reasons.

Here's a good scenario for you.
you're in a tournament, race to 5. It's the first match and you lost the lag. Your opponent runs 3 racks then 6 balls of the next rack and misses, he rakes the balls.

That leaves you with the break and a cold stroke and down 2 games, who do you think has the advantage at this point?

ideologist
09-12-2013, 11:25 AM
That leaves you with the break and a cold stroke and down 2 games, who do you think has the advantage at this point?

I do, because I'm at the table. Thanks for the win!

DogsPlayingPool
09-12-2013, 11:35 AM
I don't see anything wrong in conceding by raking. I suppose I can understand it being against the rules in a tournament because it is technically written in the rules that disturbing the balls in any manner like that is unsportsmanlike conduct. Now, the issue could be resolved simply by making the penalty for this to be loss of rack. Yes you could verbally call it, but raking avoids any misunderstanding about what was said..."I didn't say 'That's good', you heard me wrong."

This has to be one of the best concessions I've ever seen. Keith is playing Earl in the final of the 1988 Ohio State Open. At the 3:35 mark, after winning the first rack Keith breaks dry and rakes the balls. :grin-square: Grass doesn't grow under either of these guy's feet. The match went hill-hill, race to 11, and was over in less than an hour.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHQw9T5uvyk

3andstop
09-12-2013, 11:43 AM
In my mind raking the balls has implications far beyond a pool game. It goes right to the lack of respect so many more people have today.

But, with more than one generation of disrespect in many areas of life, unfortunately there is less opportunity for young people to be exposed to respect. It's just gonna get worse.

DogsPlayingPool
09-12-2013, 11:48 AM
In my mind raking the balls has implications far beyond a pool game. It goes right to the lack of respect so many more people have today.

But, with more than one generation of disrespect in many areas of life, unfortunately there is less opportunity for young people to be exposed to respect. It's just gonna get worse.

What is disrespectful about it? Seems to me conceding is a sign of respect.

Not sure what makes concession by raking less respectful than verbally conceding. In a way it is more respectful because you are leaving no doubt as to your intention to concede. Sure, firing the balls around the table in anger would be bad sportsmanship. but simply laying your cue down and moving a few balls towards the rack area doesn't seem wrong to me.

In a sense, disturbing the balls should be the proper way to concede if you are essentially taking a loss of rack penalty by doing so. And it eliminates any arguments over what was verbally said.

Dopc
09-12-2013, 12:00 PM
I do it as a shark move.

I do it on purpose on an out he should make and then the next time he might think I am going to do it and I wont.

For me its purely a shark move, I do it.

Ken

I think this is unsportsmanlike Ken_4fun, certainly not honorable by any means.

Unsportsman like for a number of reasons.

Here's a good scenario for you.
you're in a tournament, race to 5. It's the first match and you lost the lag. Your opponent runs 3 racks then 6 balls of the next rack and misses, he rakes the balls.

That leaves you with the break and a cold stroke and down 2 games, who do you think has the advantage at this point?

More support for the this being a "shark type move".

Heres how I see it, and as always this is just my opinion. The only time I think it should be acceptable is if it is the *LAST* deciding game for the set/match. I see it purely as a shark move. I always make the opponent shot every shot. In my opinion, the only time a concession should be acceptable or permitted is if it's a determining game of a match/set. The reason i think it's a shark move is due to the fact, if your opponent leaves you hooked without a shot, it's unlikely they'd rake.in that situation.
Conceding a hanging winning ball is not so much an offense/shark move, but conceding a 2 or more ball out is. It can be used as a mental tool as Ken_4fun stated. Of course these are just my opinions.
When several balls to a near full rack get raked, all I see is a 5 year old child acting out ridiculously. Who wants to be around that?

Dopc....flame on...

Edit: I started this reply and then got a phone call of which I had to leave pretty quick. I just sort of thrashed out typing what thoughts I could and this awful post was the result. I should have just left and not posted it at all. Live and learn.

Brian in VA
09-12-2013, 12:01 PM
In the deciding Ryder Cup match between Nicklaus and Tony Jackelin, years ago, Nicklaus conceded the match and Cup winning putt. It was definitely outside the leather. That was considered one of the finest displays of sportsmanship in golf's history.

FWIW.

Actually, the US had already scored enough points to keep the cup and Nicklaus conceded a longish putt (about 20 feet) allowing Jacklin to earn a half or tie in his individual match against him. If he'd missed the putt, Nicklaus would have won that match but it mattered not in the overall. By doing so, he allowed his opponent to save face with a tie.

Unless it's the last game, raking the balls to me is a shark move as was stated by one poster. Just my opinion. You agreed to play the match, play the damned thing.

Brian in VA

DogsPlayingPool
09-12-2013, 12:07 PM
Heres how I see it, and as always this is just my opinion. The only time I think it should be acceptable is if it is the *LAST* deciding game for the set/match. I see it purely as a shark move. I always make the opponent shot every shot. In my opinion, the only time a concession should be acceptable or permitted is if it's a determining game of a match/set. The reason i think it's a shark move is due to the fact, if your opponent leaves you hooked without a shot, it's unlikely they'd rake.in that situation.
Conceding a hanging winning ball is not so much an offense/shark move, but conceding a 2 or more ball out is. It can be used as a mental tool as Ken_4fun stated. Of course these are just my opinions.
When several balls to a near full rack get raked, all I see is a 5 year old child acting out ridiculously. Who wants to be around that?



Dopc....flame on...


In the two examples you quoted, there is no significance to raking the balls. Either scenario could have been accomplished by a verbal concession. So are you really against raking in particular or concessions in general?

I suppose it hinges on you considering it a move. In golf concessions are often given for similar reasons. For example, you don't want your opponent to gain confidence from making a putt to win a hole on a putt you figure he will make anyway or you give him a couple early then make him putt a short one later in the round. Everyone pretty much agrees golf is a game of honor and these are allowed. They just are considered a part of strategy in match play and not gamesmanship (like the intentional cough during a guy's swing or stroke, or stepping on the line of his putt). It makes no difference whether you pick up his ball and toss it to him or simply say "That's good" and let him pick it up.

Dopc
09-12-2013, 02:12 PM
In the two examples you quoted, there is no significance to raking the balls. Either scenario could have been accomplished by a verbal concession. So are you really against raking in particular or concessions in general?
(snipped)
It makes no difference whether you pick up his ball and toss it to him or simply say "That's good" and let him pick it up.

I replied rather quickly as I was heading out the door so I didn't really give my reply full attention and re-evaluation prior to posting.My apologies for not making it a well thought out reply.

*opinion warning*

To answer your question highlighted in blue above, it depends. Again it goes back to intentions (or my interpretation of those intentions at that moment). This really is a not so much a yes or no answer question.

I see your point about gamesmanship and strategy regarding golf, and I agree that it somewhat applies to pool as well. I'm not against "it's good" on a mid set game winning hanger ball, nor do I see it as a "move". I think a concession is acceptable in that situation.

However, I am against raking a table of several/many balls where the outcome is yet to be determined (anything can and will happen from time to time). I see it a few different ways, its either a "move" or ones ability to not control their emotional outbursts. I also see it as an outright disrespect of both the opponent and the game. Nobody wants to be around or play against an opponent that is either mentally/emotionally unstable, or acts out like a child. It's just not enjoyable or worthy of my time and effort.....

Maybe it's that class and respect for ones self and others is a thing of the past. I don't see why the game can't be played respectfully of others. I judge ones class and character by not only how they win, but also by how they lose as well. Everybody wins, and everybody loses, so why the need to be rude or unsportsmanlike like in either situation. Be a man, shake hands and move on. If it bothers one that bad, improve ones self!

Speaking of "moves or sharking". In my opinion shows weakness, and ones lack of confidence and/or self respect. I see it as a cheat, which in turn only builds my confidence even more. When I get "moves" put on me, my reaction is back off the shot and go into super slow play mode. I let the "move" on me, be a tool to let the steam build up of the "mover". It's not always effective, but is more often than not in my experiences.

So by not answering your question directly, I gave the best reply I think I could.


Dopc.... feeling the heat...

EDIT: I'd also like to add, that my interpretation of raking is to wipe the table of many balls mid game in a fit of rage or as an outburst of emotion., not just pushing the winning ball in the hole as a concession. So I think thats where my diversion of the original topic originated. I really need to learn to re-read threads and make sure I fully understand the original post and the following replies prior to replying in the future. My apologies....

randy maha
09-12-2013, 04:53 PM
Hey inaction,
was that guy from around currie mn?

3andstop
09-12-2013, 05:43 PM
What is disrespectful about it? Seems to me conceding is a sign of respect.



Well, understand this is my own opinion of which I am entitled.

It is disrespectful to the gentlemanly game pool should be.

It is disrespectful to you cue stick which in turn reflects on one's IQ and demeanor.

It is a dumb testosterone driven Neanderthal behavior that lacks self discipline and exposes one's self to their lack of class.

But remember ... like I said. Lots of younger folks didn't have the luxury of knowing dignity respect or manners because those traits are largely multiple generations removed now. So it isn't their fault.

YubaCushion
09-12-2013, 05:58 PM
Well, understand this is my own opinion of which I am entitled.

It is disrespectful to the gentlemanly game pool should be.

It is disrespectful to you cue stick which in turn reflects on one's IQ and demeanor.

It is a dumb testosterone driven Neanderthal behavior that lacks self discipline and exposes one's self to their lack of class.

But remember ... like I said. Lots of younger folks didn't have the luxury of knowing dignity respect or manners because those traits are largely multiple generations removed now. So it isn't their fault.

So true. It wouldn't affect me one way or the other. More wins for me. It would do nothing but show me you are a Bitc*. Weather you use it as a "Shark" move (Lame).
Or a "strategic" move, or whatever. If it's your buddy and you get ball in hand on the 8, ok, lets move it along were paying by the hour.

NYC cue dude
09-12-2013, 06:04 PM
Well, understand this is my own opinion of which I am entitled.

It is disrespectful to the gentlemanly game pool should be.

It is disrespectful to you cue stick which in turn reflects on one's IQ and demeanor.

It is a dumb testosterone driven Neanderthal behavior that lacks self discipline and exposes one's self to their lack of class.

But remember ... like I said. Lots of younger folks didn't have the luxury of knowing dignity respect or manners because those traits are largely multiple generations removed now. So it isn't their fault.

Is disrespectful. And the point made that if you don't see it that way says a lot about our cultural degradation is spot on.

DogsPlayingPool
09-12-2013, 06:08 PM
EDIT: I'd also like to add, that my interpretation of raking is to wipe the table of many balls mid game in a fit of rage or as an outburst of emotion., not just pushing the winning ball in the hole as a concession. So I think thats where my diversion of the original topic originated. I really need to learn to re-read threads and make sure I fully understand the original post and the following replies prior to replying in the future. My apologies....

I guess we see things pretty closely. I agree that as an outburst or done in anger it is unsportsmanlike, no question. But as a concession I see no problem in it. My interpretation of the OP was that it was about raking the balls as a concession because he never said anything about anger or other unsportsmanlike behavior.

Did you happen to see the video of Keith's concession I posted? I thought that was totally respectful of Earl and you could see that Strickland had no problem with it. Keith was just basically saying "Your too good to not get on that nine ball so game to you." He was bummed he didn't make the 9 on the snap but he didn't rake the balls in anger either. It wasn't like "G-damnit, I broke dry and hung the MFin' 9, son of a beeatch!"

Banks
09-12-2013, 06:52 PM
Well, understand this is my own opinion of which I am entitled.

It is disrespectful to the gentlemanly game pool should be.

It is disrespectful to you cue stick which in turn reflects on one's IQ and demeanor.

It is a dumb testosterone driven Neanderthal behavior that lacks self discipline and exposes one's self to their lack of class.

But remember ... like I said. Lots of younger folks didn't have the luxury of knowing dignity respect or manners because those traits are largely multiple generations removed now. So it isn't their fault.

Well, if you say it is just an opinion, then why are you so critical of it to the point of being insulting?

My cue is nothing short of a beat up house cue. Are you suggesting that I've got the IQ of a rock and the manners to match? Bah. I joke, smile, talk and laugh when I play. If I feel that I have left a shot that my opponent couldn't miss without some sort of devine intervention, then I won't make them shoot it. Of course, if it is something official, I'll let the game play out. Gambling, I'll probably rake a duck unless it's the match ball.

Dopc
09-12-2013, 08:11 PM
I guess we see things pretty closely. I agree that as an outburst or done in anger it is unsportsmanlike, no question. But as a concession I see no problem in it. My interpretation of the OP was that it was about raking the balls as a concession because he never said anything about anger or other unsportsmanlike behavior.

Did you happen to see the video of Keith's concession I posted? I thought that was totally respectful of Earl and you could see that Strickland had no problem with it. Keith was just basically saying "Your too good to not get on that nine ball so game to you." He was bummed he didn't make the 9 on the snap but he didn't rake the balls in anger either. It wasn't like "G-damnit, I broke dry and hung the MFin' 9, son of a beeatch!"



I appreciate the fact we see eye to eye on the mid-game raking. The OPs post did make mention of his friends opponent being "mad" at the fact he raked which sparked the thread.

What wasn't mentioned was under what conditions, the when and the how the rake took place. Was it the middle of the game or on the last ball or after a foul etc, etc. I guess thats why I just assumed by rake he meant mid-game with many balls left to be played out.

I did in fact watch the McCready vs Strickland video, they looked so young and well in stroke, I would have loved to see that full match. Regarding the McCready concession, I didn't see it as a shark move exactly, but to be fair to the competition and other players in the field, I think it should be played out regardless. However thats just my opinion.

What I do find humorous is you used Mr. Strickland as an example pertaining to sharking. While I admire and have complete respect for his game, his achievements and abilities, I also see him as the king of shark moves in his later years as well. I have to admit, as a spectator watching the "Pearl" go on tilt is some of the most entertaining pool viewing, I sure would hate to be his competitor in that situation (well I'd hate to be his competitor in any situation honestly, he's a monster shooter). Just ask Jayson Shaw how he feels about it after the recent "Steinway Classic 2013" match with Mr. Strickland. hehe....

After several shark moves by the "Pearl" throughout the entire match, Shaw shows his displeasure after the handshake. Youtube link here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=IwcFO7RbQgs#t=1744). Should the link not take you to the right time in the video, just forawrd to the 29.00 minute mark.In addition, I also don't agree with Shaws reactions, but I understand his frustrations.

Again, I'm glad we were able to agree regarding the mid-game rake.

Dopc...

cleary
09-12-2013, 08:23 PM
With your opponents table. Period. There is no class in that gesture.

Extending courtesy is another story but should always be done verbally. "Good enough" "not necessary", or "that's good" is acceptable.

It's never ok, IMO, to touch the balls on the table while conceding a game.

What's the difference??? "It's good" and raking the balls is the same thing and its perfectly fine. They're giving you that game, take it. A skid on the money ball will make you wish they gave it to you.

cleary
09-12-2013, 08:32 PM
Well, understand this is my own opinion of which I am entitled.

It is disrespectful to the gentlemanly game pool should be.

It is disrespectful to you cue stick which in turn reflects on one's IQ and demeanor.

It is a dumb testosterone driven Neanderthal behavior that lacks self discipline and exposes one's self to their lack of class.

But remember ... like I said. Lots of younger folks didn't have the luxury of knowing dignity respect or manners because those traits are largely multiple generations removed now. So it isn't their fault.

Giving someone the game is NOTHING but respectful. I've had people make the 8, scratch and go get the cue ball to make me shoot the 9ball with ball in hand. That's as disrespectful as it gets.

You guys seem to have this false sense of class. That word, class, gets dropped a lot but I don't think many have any clue what it means or what it is... Or have ever seem it. There is nothing classy about pool. That doesn't make it a bad thing, it's just not classy.

NYC cue dude
09-12-2013, 08:57 PM
Giving someone the game is NOTHING but respectful. I've had people make the 8, scratch and go get the cue ball to make me shoot the 9ball with ball in hand. That's as disrespectful as it gets.

You guys seem to have this false sense of class. That word, class, gets dropped a lot but I don't think many have any clue what it means or what it is... Or have ever seem it. There is nothing classy about pool. That doesn't make it a bad thing, it's just not classy.

Ask yourself why. And then look in the mirror. You wouldn't know the first thing about class, Andrew.

DogsPlayingPool
09-12-2013, 09:33 PM
I appreciate the fact we see eye to eye on the mid-game raking. The OPs post did make mention of his friends opponent being "mad" at the fact he raked which sparked the thread.

What wasn't mentioned was under what conditions, the when and the how the rake took place. Was it the middle of the game or on the last ball or after a foul etc, etc. I guess thats why I just assumed by rake he meant mid-game with many balls left to be played out.

I did in fact watch the McCready vs Strickland video, they looked so young and well in stroke, I would have loved to see that full match. Regarding the McCready concession, I didn't see it as a shark move exactly, but to be fair to the competition and other players in the field, I think it should be played out regardless. However thats just my opinion.

What I do find humorous is you used Mr. Strickland as an example pertaining to sharking. While I admire and have complete respect for his game, his achievements and abilities, I also see him as the king of shark moves in his later years as well. I have to admit, as a spectator watching the "Pearl" go on tilt is some of the most entertaining pool viewing, I sure would hate to be his competitor in that situation (well I'd hate to be his competitor in any situation honestly, he's a monster shooter). Just ask Jayson Shaw how he feels about it after the recent "Steinway Classic 2013" match with Mr. Strickland. hehe....

After several shark moves by the "Pearl" throughout the entire match, Shaw shows his displeasure after the handshake. Youtube link here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=IwcFO7RbQgs#t=1744). Should the link not take you to the right time in the video, just forawrd to the 29.00 minute mark.In addition, I also don't agree with Shaws reactions, but I understand his frustrations.

Again, I'm glad we were able to agree regarding the mid-game rake.

Dopc...

That the guy in the OP got mad when his opponent raked the balls is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the person raking the balls - if he is doing it in an angry, unsportsmanlike way then of course it isn't right. If he is doing it to concede then I see no problem with it. There was no mention of this being the case in the OP. I make no distinction between mid-game or other.

I wasn't using Earl as an example of sharking or not sharking. I used that match as an example of Keith raking the balls to concede. It so happened he was playing Earl. All I was saying about Earl in that situation is that he didn't take offense at it.

As far as it being a shark move, again I don't see any difference between raking the balls and verbally conceding. So if your issue is that you're keeping your opponent from getting in stroke as in the one example you gave, then your problem is with the concession, not with the method of conceding.

As for the idea of being fair to the competition and other players in the field goes, other players have nothing to do with it - it is match play. Same as in golf - there are no concessions in stroke play but in match play it is perfectly fine. But in any event, it sounds like your problem is with the concession and not raking the balls per se.

Snapshot9
09-12-2013, 10:03 PM
Saying that's good is a gentle concession, and retains dignity.
Raking the balls is a mild violent concession, and unsportsmanlike.

Raking the balls tells me that my opponent has an ego bigger than his skill level.

Dopc
09-12-2013, 10:55 PM
That the guy in the OP got mad when his opponent raked the balls is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the person raking the balls - if he is doing it in an angry, unsportsmanlike way then of course it isn't right. If he is doing it to concede then I see no problem with it. There was no mention of this being the case in the OP. I make no distinction between mid-game or other.

We both agree on this section aside from the concession by raking portion. My point is, at what time did the opponent get to agree to accept or deny the concession? There are rules about this for a reason.

I wasn't using Earl as an example of sharking or not sharking. I used that match as an example of Keith raking the balls to concede. It so happened he was playing Earl. All I was saying about Earl in that situation is that he didn't take offense at it.

I agree that Earl didn't take any offense to it. I never stated that he did. What I did state though is Earl is in fact a sharkster, whether it's intentional or unintentional only he knows. That part I added unsolicited.

As far as it being a shark move, again I don't see any difference between raking the balls and verbally conceding. So if your issue is that you're keeping your opponent from getting in stroke as in the one example you gave, then your problem is with the concession, not with the method of conceding.

Yeah, this is where we do disagree, I do see raking as a shark move, whereas by the rules of the game you *are* denying the opponent his legal turn at the table. So yes, that's where I take issue with the concession by raking, with the exception of an obvious dead hanger. Where I take issue with the raking is, is the raking done before or after the opponent is asked whether he is willing to accept or deny the concession. If he never had the option to accept or deny it, and should he be permitted to decline the concession? If so, how is that approached after the table has been raked?

As for the idea of being fair to the competition and other players in the field goes, other players have nothing to do with it - it is match play. Same as in golf - there are no concessions in stroke play but in match play it is perfectly fine. But in any event, it sounds like your problem is with the concession and not raking the balls per se.

I see what your saying for the most part, can't argue the match play concept you've brought up here. Good analogy


Sigh... I CONCEDE.....lol

*Warning: mega opinions to follow*

I hope you don't take my correspondence as passive aggressive. I'm certain its due to the fact I suck at putting mental thought into written word. Yes, it is a lack of proper education, and I'm doing the bast I can here. If you took anything I'm saying in an argumentative tone, I apologize if I come off that way to you. I do not intend that to be the case.

Yes, I take issue with a concession mid rack while multiple playable balls are still on the table, Yes, I do believe keeping your opponent cold and from playing on the table by any means other than you not missing and running out racks yourself is a shark/cheating method. There should only be a few ways to keep your opponent seated and in cold stroke, and that's by either playing lock-up safe after lock-up safe, or running out rack after rack, or the opponent just can't make a ball. Period.......

To deny the opponent their due turn at the table before the game has officially concluded, is a shark/cheating move. You (not you personally, just using that as a descriptive term of the person doing the conceding) are cheating the player out of his legal turn at the table, fact!

Again, the exception I see as acceptable is if the only ball left on the table is the game *Winning* ball sitting in an overly obvious easy situation. (or in rotation a hanger winning ball, such as your McCready video demonstrated)*.

Phew...I sure hope that clarifies my stance on the issues of concession. I am certainly open minded and willing to listen to anyones thoughts, but it will be a hard sell to change my mind on the matter of concession outside of what I've already mentioned. I'm also not trying to have the last word, or win anything here. Merely just trying to state my opinions on the matter of concession. I look forward to anyones reply.

Dopc.... my fingers hurt

DsmithBFL
09-12-2013, 11:38 PM
I feel raking the balls is definitely unsportsmanlike. I admit that people can get sensitive but still, I just don't like it.

RunOut Apps
09-12-2013, 11:44 PM
Bad Sportsmanship

purpdrag
09-13-2013, 05:33 AM
What's the difference??? "It's good" and raking the balls is the same thing and its perfectly fine. They're giving you that game, take it. A skid on the money ball will make you wish they gave it to you.

I explained the difference in an earlier post. If I'm not warmed up or otherwise feeling a little shaky with my stroke I want to use that last shot as a practice stroke/warmup. The option to shoot it will increase my chances of winning the match. If someone says "it's good" I can apologize that I need the practice and shoot it anyway. I can't do that if they rake the balls.

And again, if it's the match winning game then I have NO problem with it, but people rarely rake the ball(s) when it's for the match.

cleary
09-13-2013, 07:08 AM
Ask yourself why. And then look in the mirror. You wouldn't know the first thing about class, Andrew.

And I could say the same thing about you, Randy. Look at what you just wrote, would you consider that classy? hmmm...

Maybe we have different visions of "classy" but the last thing that comes to mind is pool. Golf, tennis, skiing... ok. Things wealthy people send their kids off to do. Putting on a vest and calling people "sir" doesn't equal classy, to me. Sorry. But that doesn't make it a bad thing. It's just not what you think it is or what you want it to be. But I'm just poor, white trash that rakes the balls, so never mind me.

Cdryden
09-13-2013, 07:27 AM
It doesn't bother me either way.

I remember on time playing a guy and getting the best of him in 9 ball and every time I got down to the last ball or two he would smack them with his stick. Later when asked by someone why he did that he said "No way am I letting that f 'er shot those balls". He was doing it to try to rattle me.

I welcome that type of sharking, I'll take it all day long. :wink:


When I am playing someone and I feel confident that they are going to win I will say "That's good", and if they stop shooting I will start racking, but I never deny them their shot. It's just bad manners.

cleary
09-13-2013, 07:30 AM
I welcome that type of sharking, I'll take it all day long. :wink:


I totally agree. Actually, I think sharking is bullish!t and it's an excuse for why you're not playing well or you dogged it. The only person that can shark me, is me.

Matt
09-13-2013, 07:40 AM
As with many things, it's not what you do, it's how you do it. There's a big difference between conceding the game and gathering the balls when you've just given your opponent BIH with an easy out and approaching the table while your opponent is shooting and smacking the balls out of the way. Either one is a concession, but I would only consider the second one unsportsmanlike.

During practice, we often concede racks when the out is easy. I have been trying to shake this habit during tournaments; I prefer to just let my opponent run out and hope they will let me do the same.

cleary
09-13-2013, 07:50 AM
As with many things, it's not what you do, it's how you do it. There's a big difference between conceding the game and gathering the balls when you've just given your opponent BIH with an easy out and approaching the table while your opponent is shooting and smacking the balls out of the way. Either one is a concession, but I would only consider the second one unsportsmanlike.[/QUOTE]

Of course. When I give someone the game, it's because I know they're out and I'd rather just get the next game going. But if you're an asshole and smacking the balls everywhere, then you're just an asshole.

Bambu
09-13-2013, 08:03 AM
I think were all talking about raking in a nasty way. Nobody minds if the balls are pushed up softly. Its all about how its done, almost as if something was said.

If its the first set or match of the night, I agree raking can keep an opponent "cold." Cold or not though, I try to shrug it off and take the win. Unless its a top notch player, raking often has a way of backfiring. Raking can be part of the mental erosion process. So I see it as a win, and I also see the possibility of my opponent beginning to break down. He can also cry and whine all he wants to, it only builds my confidence.

supergreenman
09-13-2013, 08:17 AM
I do, because I'm at the table. Thanks for the win!

You would have had a better advantage with 2 easy balls to shoot before the next rack.

Banks
09-13-2013, 10:21 AM
But I'm just poor, white trash that rakes the balls, so never mind me.

Don't forget, also an egomaniac and an idiot. Next time I don't make my opponent shoot a BIH game ball(or something as easy), I'll make sure to drool when I do it. :withstupid:

desi2960
09-13-2013, 10:27 AM
childish !!!!!!!!!

DogsPlayingPool
09-13-2013, 11:41 AM
I think were all talking about raking in a nasty way. Nobody minds if the balls are pushed up softly. Its all about how its done, almost as if something was said...


That's the problem, we're not all talking about the same thing. There's a lot of miscommunication going on. ;)

cleary
09-13-2013, 11:49 AM
Don't forget, also an egomaniac and an idiot.

oh... oh yea. I nearly forgot.

JohnPT
09-13-2013, 01:34 PM
Poor guy got his feelings hurt because he didn't get to shoot the 8 on his turn waaaaah!

Dopc
09-13-2013, 01:46 PM
I think were all talking about raking in a nasty way. Nobody minds if the balls are pushed up softly. Its all about how its done, almost as if something was said.

If its the first set or match of the night, I agree raking can keep an opponent "cold." Cold or not though, I try to shrug it off and take the win. Unless its a top notch player, raking often has a way of backfiring. Raking can be part of the mental erosion process. So I see it as a win, and I also see the possibility of my opponent beginning to break down. He can also cry and whine all he wants to, it only builds my confidence.


After reading this thread yet again after a nights sleep, I think you are right and I failed to see we are all possibly looking at this in different ways. Either way the balls are raked, be it gently with care or brutally with force and anger, as long as I get the verbal option to accept the concession is all that matters to me. Should I wish to shot them out, at least I was given the respect to have that option. Thats the entire point of all my posts in this thread. I also agree with your point of the mental erosion of the opponent doing the raking, but there might* also possibly be some for the person who the concession was forced on without consent as well.

That's the problem, we're not all talking about the same thing. There's a lot of miscommunication going on. ;)

I think you may be right on the money here. I think I owe you an apology for the endless back and forth in this thread. After re-reading all of it after a nights rest, I see I may have been a bit stubborn in my postings with you. For that I am sorry, nor was that my intentions during the process.
As mentioned earlier, I am terrible at the written word, it's simply a lack of education and writing skills. I meant no disrespect what soever. If you had any feelings I was trying to fuel a verbal showdown, please accept my apologies.


To the original poster:
I also feel I owe you a small apology as well for hijacking your thread, although it was on topic, I think I may have over stated my opinions on the matter a few to many times.

This is obviously a topic I'm fairly passionate about. I'm not completely against the concession itself, but merely when and how its done, and did I get the option to accept it or not. I feel if I have the need or desire to play out the game, I should be afforded that right and not have my choice forced upon me by another.

The verbal "It's good", or the physical gesture (thumbs up or the likes), gives me the option to decline. The raking of the balls, whether it be nice or rudely done, leaves me with no choice or recourse after the fact other than a verbal confrontation.

Regarding the opponent, I understand the displeasure of his misfortune to miss his run-out or leave a hanger, but why should I allow him to be rewarded by not sitting/standing by and watching me cruise to a game victory for which he created that possibility, regardless if its a dead shot or a 3-5 ball easy run-out. Why am I expected to ease his tension and inner turmoil, by allowing him to bypass that painful few moments it takes me to finish the game legally by the rules set forth of the governing body?

Man, this should have been my first and only post in this entire thread. It would have saved me a lot of typing, and made my point a lot quicker.

Dopc... Needs to learn to get to the point quickly

doitforthegame
09-13-2013, 02:07 PM
Happened to our team at the BCAPL Nationals. The opponent raked all the balls into one side of the table. The ref called Un-sportsman like conduct and awarded the game to us. Soon after that the same guy was kicked out of the Tournament.

randyg

Hi Randy- haven't gone through the whole thread so you might have answered this already. But, WHY is it unsportsmanlike like conduct? I'm not getting that part. What is evil about someone conceding a game? In match play golfers concede putts, even in tournaments.

Bob

JCIN
09-13-2013, 02:31 PM
From a pro pool point of view I hate concessions and wish every time someone did it a midget in a fire mans outfit would come out from under the table and kick the dude who did it right in the balls.

You never concede. Its not classy or cool. Its weak.

Raking the balls is just a d!ck move and deserves two kicks from the midget.

If its two guys goofing off in a pool room who cares what they do. They are the ones who have to deal with each other. When people are watching its a different story.

StraightPoolIU
09-13-2013, 02:37 PM
From a pro pool point of view I hate concessions and wish every time someone did it a midget in a fire mans outfit would come out from under the table and kick the dude who did it right in the balls.

You never concede. Its not classy or cool. Its weak.

Raking the balls is just a d!ck move and deserves two kicks from the midget.

If its two guys goofing off in a pool room who cares what they do. They are the ones who have to deal with each other. When people are watching its a different story.

This. Seems like the definitive post on the subject to me.

DogsPlayingPool
09-13-2013, 02:39 PM
... I think you may be right on the money here. I think I owe you an apology for the endless back and forth in this thread. After re-reading all of it after a nights rest, I see I may have been a bit stubborn in my postings with you. For that I am sorry, nor was that my intentions during the process.
As mentioned earlier, I am terrible at the written word, it's simply a lack of education and writing skills. I meant no disrespect what soever. If you had any feelings I was trying to fuel a verbal showdown, please accept my apologies.


Hey, I feel like you're raking the balls on me! LOL! :D

No apologies necessary, the back and forth was respectful and I've no issues with anything you said or how you said it. No worries, it's all good. Gentlemanly discussion is missing all too often around here. :thumbup:


Hi Randy- haven't gone through the whole thread so you might have answered this already. But, WHY is it unsportsmanlike like conduct? I'm not getting that part. What is evil about someone conceding a game? In match play golfers concede putts, even in tournaments.

Bob

Bob, what you need to take into consideration is the context of Randy's post. Concessions are addressed in the BCAPL rules and are not allowed in BCAPL play - period. And the penalties are defined in the rules. So in this situation the reason it is unsportsmanlike conduct is because the rules say so. Now, whether you agree with the rule is a different matter. But there is no debate about it when it is covered by the rules.

doitforthegame
09-13-2013, 04:59 PM
Bob, what you need to take into consideration is the context of Randy's post. Concessions are addressed in the BCAPL rules and are not allowed in BCAPL play - period. And the penalties are defined in the rules. So in this situation the reason it is unsportsmanlike conduct is because the rules say so. Now, whether you agree with the rule is a different matter. But there is no debate about it when it is covered by the rules.

I got the part about why he got the unsportsmanlike, but I was interested in Randy's thoughts as why this was a rule. What is the logic. I see both sides of it....raking balls is a shark move intending to make the "winner" feel insecure that the "loser" has no respect for his game. On the other hand, if I am the winner, I think the opposite. This guy knows he is over matched and like all losers he is just trying to get this over with so he can start with the excuses. And, I would know since I have been on both sides :embarrassed2:

Bob

DogsPlayingPool
09-13-2013, 05:13 PM
I got the part about why he got the unsportsmanlike, but I was interested in Randy's thoughts as why this was a rule. What is the logic. I see both sides of it....raking balls is a shark move intending to make the "winner" feel insecure that the "loser" has no respect for his game. On the other hand, if I am the winner, I think the opposite. This guy knows he is over matched and like all losers he is just trying to get this over with so he can start with the excuses. And, I would know since I have been on both sides :embarrassed2:

Bob

Gotcha, I misunderstood. I agree with you in that I don't particularly have any problems with concessions. I can understand though why they might have this rule from a league perspective (jmho). It simplifies things. It eliminates any disagreements or disputes that can arise about whether or not a player actually conceded-----> One player says, "You said that's good, so I started racking the next game!" and the other player says, "I was talking about my hamburger." Or a player denies he raked the balls off the table in unsportsmanlike anger, insisting he was just caressing them down to the foot end to rack them and a couple went flying overboard and through the drywall by accident.

michael4
09-13-2013, 05:27 PM
another golf analogy

If I'm holding the flag stick and my partner puts up (from distance) to within one foot of the hole, no one has ever complained when I pick up their ball and toss it back to them, meaning "its good" of course