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View Full Version : APA in NYC made several new rules called "FastPlay"


burnt_wick
09-12-2013, 06:31 AM
Thoughts?


APA-FastPlay Guidelines

Effective 09/15/13

The goal of the APA in NYC is that matches are concluded within 4 hours. Circumstances may often require a little more time, but not much more.

The following rules shall apply to all teams in APAnyc. All teams are expected and encourage to embrace these rules and understand that they are designed to enhance the league experience, not hinder it in any way. Those who resist these guidelines and insult their opponents for their adherence will be strongly disciplined and penalized with points and/or suspensions.

START TIME - Start time is the published start time, and not 15 or 20 minutes later. For a 7pm start time, the coin toss should be done at 6:55 and the match should start at 7 sharp. There is a grace period allowed if no one from a team is present at start time. The grace period is 15 minutes and the match must start within that time if even one player is present.

RECORD START AND END TIME OF EACH MATCH - Use the fees section on the bottom left corner of the scoresheet to neatly record the start and end times of each match. The goal is 45 minutes or less for matches lasting six games or less, and 60 minutes or less for matches lasting more than six games.

BE READY FOR THE NEXT MATCH - Teams must plan for an upcoming match before a current match is finished. If you are expected to play next, have your cue ready and be ready to play right away. The team that puts up has 30 seconds following a win or loss to declare the next player and the other team has 60 seconds to declare an opponent. Failure to adhere to that is a sportsmanship violation and will be recorded on the sheet and on a team’s record.

SHORT COACHES ARE MANDATORY - A player may only call for a time-out during the first 15 seconds of a turn. After that the player must shoot within the allotted time. The same would apply to the next shot, and so on until the allotted time-outs for the game are used up. All time-outs should be timed by both teams and after 60 seconds the time-out is over. If the time-out is not ended by 60 seconds the turn is forfeited. After the time-out the player must shoot right away. Group coaching is no longer allowed. A different coach is still permissible for each time out.

EXCESSIVE THINKING - Players must think quickly and shoot a shot every 30-40 seconds, or less. A particularly hard shot can take a little longer but the player MUST make up that time on successive shots.

NO MATCH OVER 1 HOUR - An average individual game should last 6 minutes for higher ranked players and 10 minutes for lower ranked players and somewhere in between for a match with both.

If a match goes over 1 hour, both scorekeepers will have to engage the SHOT CLOCK for the remainder of the match. Under the shot clock, each player must shoot within 40 seconds. A 10 second warning should be given at the 30 second mark. At this time, and during any shot-clock situation, the two score/time keepers should sit together and enforce the rules in a cooperative manner. Both captain must ensure that this is done, in an efficient and cooperative manner.

5TH MATCH MUST START BY 10:30 ON WEEKNIGHTS - If all the guidelines above are followed then the 5th match will always start before 10:30 pm and the whole match will end before 11:30.

This is our new goal. Please help to make this a reality. CAPTAINS, AND SLOW PLAYERS, WILL BE HELD RESPONSIBLE.

Team captains will be held responsible for educating their players regarding the need for playing matches that flow at a responsible and enjoyable pace.

We will ask all teams to report players and teams that are typical offenders of the problems listed and these individuals/teams will be warned, docked PENALTY POINTS, and possibly suspended for deliberate disregard of their opponents’ enjoyment.

Captains and players who deliberately ignore requests to play properly and insult people who want matches follow the FastPlay rules will be penalized the most. Unsportsmanlike conduct in this regard will not be tolerated.

burnt_wick
09-13-2013, 05:18 PM
I talked to some captains about FastPlay. Nobody is especially happy about it.

Looks like Monday will be the first time the rules are implemented. I'll let everyone know how it goes.

nobcitypool
09-13-2013, 05:24 PM
Sounds like some great common sense rules to me. My biggest complaint about APA is the time it takes to,play in particular starting late and the screwing around in between matches.

Banks
09-13-2013, 05:25 PM
Our area has used similar guidelines since as long as I've known. If you're not on your 4th match after 2 hours, I think, it suggests that you use an additional table. Usually people just play on, as it does state in ours that it is up to the teams involved, but there have been a few that used an extra table to speed things up. Timeouts also shouldn't be 5 minutes long, no matter how much information a coach would like to try to fill somebody's head with before attempting a shot. Remember.. it's a timeout, not a lesson.

How long do your sets of matches usually run?

burnt_wick
09-13-2013, 05:35 PM
Our area has used similar guidelines since as long as I've known. If you're not on your 4th match after 2 hours, I think, it suggests that you use an additional table. Usually people just play on, as it does state in ours that it is up to the teams involved, but there have been a few that used an extra table to speed things up. Timeouts also shouldn't be 5 minutes long, no matter how much information a coach would like to try to fill somebody's head with before attempting a shot. Remember.. it's a timeout, not a lesson.

How long do your sets of matches usually run?

We start at 7:00 PM and usually finish up between 10:30 and 11:30. Sometimes a match will run to 12:30.

justadub
09-13-2013, 05:35 PM
We very rarely have matches go longer than 4 hours here, but we have a rule where we start a second table 2 hours into the match. 3.5 hours is about the average for our matches. We start at 7PM on Tuesdays, and 6:30 on Thursdays. Plenty of time after we're done to play more, or go out somewhere else, or go home and get a good nights rest.

That way we don't have to do all the things NYC is doing. Our timeouts tend to go too long occasionally, and it gets mentioned now and again, but otherwise we seem to get things done reasonably well. There are a few players that tend to be a little too methodical, but all in all, its not a problem for us.

Good luck, NYC.

YubaCushion
09-13-2013, 05:39 PM
It must of been pretty sad to have to make rules for common sense play. What was going on there? Oh wait, NY and the APA.

RunOut Apps
09-13-2013, 05:42 PM
One bad apple will spoil the whole bunch.

YubaCushion
09-13-2013, 05:54 PM
Our area has used similar guidelines since as long as I've known. If you're not on your 4th match after 2 hours, I think, it suggests that you use an additional table. Usually people just play on, as it does state in ours that it is up to the teams involved, but there have been a few that used an extra table to speed things up. Timeouts also shouldn't be 5 minutes long, no matter how much information a coach would like to try to fill somebody's head with before attempting a shot. Remember.. it's a timeout, not a lesson.

How long do your sets of matches usually run?

First League match 2hr 45min.

ScottK
09-14-2013, 06:19 PM
I'm torn.

On the one hand I want to applaud the effort of trying to speed up a night of APA pool.
On the other hand I have to wonder why the APA expects amateurs to play under what amounts to stricter rules than those professional players compete under.

ctyhntr
09-15-2013, 05:16 AM
Is this for teams that play five matches (8-ball), or ten matches (8-ball and 9-ball)? How does this compared to the rest of the country?

lorider
09-15-2013, 07:30 AM
Is this for teams that play five matches (8-ball), or ten matches (8-ball and 9-ball)? How does this compared to the rest of the country?

i play double jeapordy and we start at 7:00 and usually finish by 10:30 at the latest. we do not have those rules in place , its just common sense to do those things.

now every few weeks we rotate to the 9 footers. i dont care what rules you come up with it aint gonna stop a couple of 2's from going 35 innings on those tables and we usually dont get through till about 11:30 and the other teams who played on the 7's are long gone.

now we do have a rule in our traveling 8 ball league where after 3 1/2 hours you are not on your last match you start it on another table. we have used that rule but not very often.

whammo57
09-15-2013, 07:40 AM
My APA team starts at 7:30 and sometimes matches take until 12:30. On a bad night the first 3 matches have taken until 12:30....


I agree it should go faster.... but how to enforce it????

Kim

DirtyJersey
09-15-2013, 08:15 AM
Great idea OP. Hope these guidelines go nat'l.

Mickey Qualls
09-15-2013, 08:38 AM
Sounds like some great common sense rules to me. My biggest complaint about APA is the time it takes to,play in particular starting late and the screwing around in between matches.

Agreed.

These seem like some pretty 'common sense' rules to me, too.

Mickey <--- When it's your turn, be ready...

YubaCushion
09-15-2013, 11:21 AM
My APA team starts at 7:30 and sometimes matches take until 12:30. On a bad night the first 3 matches have taken until 12:30....


I agree it should go faster.... but how to enforce it????

Kim

What do you notice that's eating up time.

Tronpocket
09-15-2013, 12:10 PM
What do you notice that's eating up time.

5 sets of 2s , 3s and 4s.....can take FOREVER. and makes you want to hang yourself in the parking lot.

Bambu
09-15-2013, 01:42 PM
I thought the apa was supposed to be about fun. But 30 second shot clocks aren't fun. 60 seconds to declare an opponent? I forsee arguments. Calls based on tiny incraments of time are bound to piss people off. Players at the bar, outside smoking, in the bathroom, etc. Some guys are real sticklers for the rules, not fun.

And why the big hurry to finish the match? Only the team captain would benefit. The owners want people there all night, so they'd be against rules like these. I'd rather see rules changed that would make the night more fun.

KMRUNOUT
09-15-2013, 02:16 PM
I'm torn.

On the one hand I want to applaud the effort of trying to speed up a night of APA pool.
On the other hand I have to wonder why the APA expects amateurs to play under what amounts to stricter rules than those professional players compete under.

You point out some pretty severe logical inconsistencies with this idea.

*wasted* time must be cut down. Smoke breaks, starting late, not ready for next match, etc. Those are the most obvious problems to target. Here is the HUGE problem with this idea: bar table 8 ball is a complex game. Good players often have to plan the entire table each time they come to shoot. Any mistake could be your last. So coming to a disaster table and spending 60 seconds on how you are going to deal with it does not seem at all unreasonable. I have timed every single shot of entire nights of play numerous times. Often the average may be around 25 seconds, but the match still takes an hour and a half. If the table is clustered and many safes are exchanged, the game is going to take a long time. This has nothing to do with slow play. Would playing *stupid* and selling out problems all over the place speed things up? Sure! Is that what people should do? I mean, at that point you're really not playing the game anymore, you're playing the clock.

People have to decide what their priorities are. What is more important? Playing a *good* match or playing a quick match? Sometimes, through *no one's* fault, these are mutually exclusive. Its just the way the game is sometimes. Penalizing people for this indicates a failure on the organization structure to adequately account for the time matches take, rather than any shortcoming of the players.

KMRUNOUT

KMRUNOUT
09-15-2013, 02:18 PM
I thought the apa was supposed to be about fun. But 30 second shot clocks aren't fun. 60 seconds to declare an opponent? I forsee arguments. Calls based on tiny incraments of time are bound to piss people off. Players at the bar, outside smoking, in the bathroom, etc. Some guys are real sticklers for the rules, not fun.

And why the big hurry to finish the match? Only the team captain would benefit. The owners want people there all night, so they'd be against rules like these. I'd rather see rules changed that would make the night more fun.

VERY well stated. I agree 100%. And you raise a great point about the business proposition of the APA. The benefit to the local bars is that the APA will bring more people into the place than they would otherwise have. It is a benefit to the host location for the match to take as long as possible, up until last call of course...

KMRUNOUT

lorider
09-15-2013, 02:35 PM
You point out some pretty severe logical inconsistencies with this idea.

*wasted* time must be cut down. Smoke breaks, starting late, not ready for next match, etc. Those are the most obvious problems to target. Here is the HUGE problem with this idea: bar table 8 ball is a complex game. Good players often have to plan the entire table each time they come to shoot. Any mistake could be your last. So coming to a disaster table and spending 60 seconds on how you are going to deal with it does not seem at all unreasonable. I have timed every single shot of entire nights of play numerous times. Often the average may be around 25 seconds, but the match still takes an hour and a half. If the table is clustered and many safes are exchanged, the game is going to take a long time. This has nothing to do with slow play. Would playing *stupid* and selling out problems all over the place speed things up? Sure! Is that what people should do? I mean, at that point you're really not playing the game anymore, you're playing the clock.

People have to decide what their priorities are. What is more important? Playing a *good* match or playing a quick match? Sometimes, through *no one's* fault, these are mutually exclusive. Its just the way the game is sometimes. Penalizing people for this indicates a failure on the organization structure to adequately account for the time matches take, rather than any shortcoming of the players.

KMRUNOUT

i tend to agree with you. i dont like staying all night when i have to work the next day but at the same time i wanna do what i got to do to win.

one night i faced a 7 " i am 5" our match turned into a safety battle . i dont recall how many safeties we each played but i remember our match went 42 innings. it was a heluva long match.

then when you have a couple of 2's banging balls around for about 30 innings afterward it does make for a long night. thankfully those nights do not happen often.

ScottK
09-15-2013, 04:08 PM
You point out some pretty severe logical inconsistencies with this idea.

*wasted* time must be cut down. Smoke breaks, starting late, not ready for next match, etc. Those are the most obvious problems to target. Here is the HUGE problem with this idea: bar table 8 ball is a complex game. Good players often have to plan the entire table each time they come to shoot. Any mistake could be your last. So coming to a disaster table and spending 60 seconds on how you are going to deal with it does not seem at all unreasonable. I have timed every single shot of entire nights of play numerous times. Often the average may be around 25 seconds, but the match still takes an hour and a half. If the table is clustered and many safes are exchanged, the game is going to take a long time. This has nothing to do with slow play. Would playing *stupid* and selling out problems all over the place speed things up? Sure! Is that what people should do? I mean, at that point you're really not playing the game anymore, you're playing the clock.

People have to decide what their priorities are. What is more important? Playing a *good* match or playing a quick match? Sometimes, through *no one's* fault, these are mutually exclusive. Its just the way the game is sometimes. Penalizing people for this indicates a failure on the organization structure to adequately account for the time matches take, rather than any shortcoming of the players.

KMRUNOUT

I don't think you understand my post. There is nothing inconsistent about it.

I applaud their recognition of much wasted time during a league night. They should address things like those you mention not put you on a 30 second shot clock... that's ridiculous for amateurs, particularly lower skilled amateurs. As you said it's supposed to be fun.

Ironically, you say I "point out some pretty severe logical inconsistencies" then you make the exact same point which is, in and of itself, logically inconsistent.

Furthermore, I started by saying "I'm torn" as to indicate I appreciate what they're trying to do but disagree with the manner in which they're going about it.

So, why did you feel the need to quote my post and call me illogical? Were you just afraid to ask what I meant?

YubaCushion
09-15-2013, 07:14 PM
Everyone is there to play pool so the game comes first. People who don't have jobs or the people who's work hours aren't affected have to respect the people that do. And likewise of course. Here comes your shot, you know you got the game. Take the shot and pass on the safety. Keep it flowing, people got shit to do. And you, I got a job. You know what you were in for when you signed up. Every body doesn't owe it to you to change their play to as to satisfy your beddy bye time. In our league the BCA,( APA sucks) our captains let the people who go to bed the earliest go first. We don't take unnecessary shots, or sacrifice the quality of the game. 2-3 hrs were done. That's how we do.

KMRUNOUT
09-15-2013, 07:25 PM
I don't think you understand my post. There is nothing inconsistent about it.

I applaud their recognition of much wasted time during a league night. They should address things like those you mention not put you on a 30 second shot clock... that's ridiculous for amateurs, particularly lower skilled amateurs. As you said it's supposed to be fun.

Ironically, you say I "point out some pretty severe logical inconsistencies" then you make the exact same point which is, in and of itself, logically inconsistent.

Furthermore, I started by saying "I'm torn" as to indicate I appreciate what they're trying to do but disagree with the manner in which they're going about it.

So, why did you feel the need to quote my post and call me illogical? Were you just afraid to ask what I meant?

Scott,

It seems perhaps you should have asked me what I meant. Nowhere did I call you illogical or imply it. I said *you* pointed out some logical inconsistencies (with other people's ideas, mainly the NY APA and the APA as a whole). If I meant what you thought, I would have written "there are some logical inconsistencies with your ideas here". See the difference? In any case, I was agreeing with you. To be clear, I am saying that the notion of filling a bar with customers, having a fun and enjoyable time playing pool, and playing pool the "right" way is not consistent with the idea of having amateurs on a shot clock (often with less time than the pros!) and pushing the idea that matches have to be hurry hurry.

Hopefully this clears things up?

KNRUNOUT

ScottK
09-15-2013, 08:46 PM
Scott,

It seems perhaps you should have asked me what I meant. Nowhere did I call you illogical or imply it. I said *you* pointed out some logical inconsistencies (with other people's ideas, mainly the NY APA and the APA as a whole). If I meant what you thought, I would have written "there are some logical inconsistencies with your ideas here". See the difference? In any case, I was agreeing with you. To be clear, I am saying that the notion of filling a bar with customers, having a fun and enjoyable time playing pool, and playing pool the "right" way is not consistent with the idea of having amateurs on a shot clock (often with less time than the pros!) and pushing the idea that matches have to be hurry hurry.

Hopefully this clears things up?

KNRUNOUT

Yes sir. Sorry, I misunderstood. That's the second time today. Maybe I should have stayed in bed!

It was pretty obvious we agreed, I should have given the matter more thought before posting again.

APA BRIAN
09-16-2013, 03:39 AM
I personally wouldn't want to play in this type of league. Or with people that don't understand that some matches and entire league nights take time (even if sometimes excessive) to complete.

DelaWho???
09-16-2013, 04:12 AM
I know I am not the only one who has sat at the opposite table watching a time out drag on wondering what the hell they could possibly be talking about. There are only so many options. Make a decision and go with it. It reminds me of a scene out of the movie Bull Durham when half the team is at the mound in the middle of the game discussing wedding gifts.

Then again, I rather enjoy it when I am about to lose the game (my opponent on the game winning shot) and his/her team calls a time out. The longer it takes the higher the probability I get another turn at the table.

What chaps my ass is the guy who takes his shot and then has to stare at the table for what seems like an endless amount of time between shots trying to figure out what to do. There are only so many options and unlike a previous poster said it isn't a very complicated game. If you can get out you get out if you can't lay up. It isn't rocket science.

:cool:

CreeDo
09-16-2013, 07:47 AM
I think the idea (preventing wasted time) is sound.
But having some lengthy page of rules about it, and timing every shot, is unbelievably tedious.
That's not the way to handle it. Nobody wants to sit there with a stopwatch.

A simpler way of handling it:

- After the (existing) 15-minute grace period to start, the first player forfeits.
Every 5 minutes after is another forfeit. Maybe *require* a forfeit rather than the current system of
"well, do you feel like forcing a forfeit or do you wanna give it a few more minutes?"

- After 4 of these (so, 35 minutes late) the on-time team is free to go home or do whatever.

- Specific delays (long timeouts, long delays between shots, long delays between matches, etc.)
can be addressed by notifying the LO on the spot. The LO then gives a verbal warning to the offending player.
If the LO isn't available or it's an ongoing problem, you write in a complaint on the back of the scoresheet
and it gets addressed later in the week.

- After one official warning, if the problem continues and there's another writeup, the LO
decides to suspend the player for a week or two.

I figure that should cover most delays.

Bambu
09-16-2013, 08:01 AM
It's not rocket science, no. But to a 2 or 3, sometimes it may as well be. But I'm not gonna be the guy sitting there with a stop watch going, sorry but that's a foul.... you just took 5 seconds over your limit. It'd be tough to respect anyone making such a call. Nobody wants to win on someone not marking a pocket properly, or going a over the normal time limit.

If you really wanted to speed things up, punish players who take forever. Say a player takes over an hour to complete a match, twice in one season. Raise his rating, suspend him a week, or make him buy a round for the other team.

StuartTKelley
09-16-2013, 09:48 AM
I agree that league matches should be held to the standard that the league championships are or cities they're called in some areas. Timeouts should be on the clock, no excessive time between shots, etc. But I don't think it can be quite as tightly monitored in all locations for all leagues matches. I would like to see our matches end earlier as well. We do start at 6:30 instead of 7:00 which has helped some but not all of the time. Lower skill level players are usually going to take longer than higher skill level players but I know higher ranked players that take way too long between shots. I guess everyone can work on speeding up their play in some regard.

Banks
09-16-2013, 10:14 AM
I'm not sure why people are getting their panties in a bunch over efforts to not have a bunch of people stuck at a bar until 1am or later on mostly weeknights. It's more of a preventative measure, making sure that things don't get out of hand. If it weren't there, I'm sure you'd have some jackass going and ordering a drink, bs'ing with a few people and claiming that there's no time constraint. It's a matter of doing what is best for the majority. If you can't shoot within 20 or 30 sec, or up to 45 on a tougher shot, stick to solitaire. It's a league for fun, don't be a douche and drag it out all night long.

For the people that want to say something about gambling and such.. if you're going to shoot slower than my grandmother(RIP), don't be surprised if I start suggesting shots to speed you up. :cool: 1P is one thing.. but taking a minute on basic shots should get you kneecapped.

APA Operator
09-16-2013, 10:28 AM
The guy with the shot clock doesn't get to call a foul. In fact, the only infractions in the OP are (potential) sportsmanship violations, the penalties for which are never imposed on the spot. Note that the guidelines say nothing about what happens if the shot clock expires. That's because nothing can happen, except to demonstrate that the shooter is taking a long time. Many slow players absolutely insist that they don't play slowly, and the shot clock is a way to prove to them that they do, in hopes that they will eventually get the message and speed up.

My main issue with publishing something like this is that it's worded very strongly for a set of guidelines (as the title states). To me, the word "must" shouldn't be used unless there's an immediate penalty for an infraction. Use the word "should" instead.

The two biggest contributors to chronic late nights are (1) taking too long per shot, and (2) excessive length of time outs. AVERAGING 30 seconds per shot instead of 20, which is a pretty long time given that some shots take 5-10 seconds, can add 5-10 minutes to the length of a match, or 25-50 minutes to the length of the night. Taking just two minutes for time-outs instead of one can add up to an hour to the night. Take care of those two things and the late nights will be the exception rather than the rule.

justadub
09-16-2013, 10:53 AM
Our area has similar guidelines about time outs, slow play, 15 minutes allowed after putting up, etc. As others have said, they are more designed to be just that, guidelines....in place to keep things from getting out of hand.

It gives you something to point out to the other team if things drag too much.

I haven't seen anything really enforced regarding it here locally, tho a couple of folks have had to have the time outs mentioned to them a few times. As I said before, starting the second table 2 hours in makes the evening far more manageable, and we don't have to get nitpicky about the other stuff as a result.

burnt_wick
09-18-2013, 02:21 PM
Week 1 went fine. I discussed FastPlay with the other captain. We both decided that there was no need to play any differently at all.

We played four out of five matches because the other team was short a player. Finished up at 10:30. A total of 71 innings were played in the four matches.