PDA

View Full Version : $75 a day for a live stream and you can't afford it? WOW!


POVPOOL
09-12-2013, 11:31 PM
I swear these places kill me! Your having a 2-day tournament featuring some of SoCal's top notch players, yet you don't want to donate $75 a day to have me stream it?

And people wonder why the pool world is hurting!

I guess I'm just venting and this point...

Woe is me...LOL

JB Cases
09-12-2013, 11:47 PM
As in the venue would pay you $75 a day?

Seems awfully cheap to me. I know one pro that gets $75 an hour for lessons. And she stays booked.

Let me see if I can break that down, you would be there about 20 hours a day streaming to the world talking up the place and getting about $3.75 an hour for that? And then the matches will all be uploaded to YouTube garnering them advertisement forever or until YouTube's servers melt down?

You're crazy to let them off that cheap.

CreeDo
09-12-2013, 11:48 PM
Just curious, how does it work? You charge them $75, and then in return they get
the exposure... but do they get anything else? A cut of stream purchases? Ads maybe?
I could sort of understand if there's nothing in it for them except making people aware of
their existence.

Houstoer
09-13-2013, 12:05 AM
dude i make that in an hour.. don't waste your time with idiots that really don't know wtf they are doing...

POVPOOL
09-13-2013, 12:13 AM
Here's the deal...

I've spent 2 years establishing the brand, the stream, promoting the players, the venue, the sponsors and not to mention the very game of pool.

I've given of myself for 2 years, and done it for free on many occasions, but there comes a point when, if someone thinks that it would be a good idea for me to show up with me 2-3 cameras and stream at your venue for at least 12 hours a day, commentate and sweat the matches, promote your venue and tell the audience how awesome the spot is, the service, the amenities, the quality of the tables; you'd think that $75 a day would be negligible.

Yes, I can go with sponsors...
Yes, you, the public could make donations...
Yes, I could do it Pay Per View
Yes, I could even do it totally for free and HOPE the content keeps my name out there

But, seriously, the venue should also see the value in this type of promotion.

Matches go up to YouTube and are constantly viewed thousands of time with multiple mentions of the venue and tournament directors.

I just F***ing hate people that are cheap but still think they are gonna get what they want.

Bottom line in my perspective: The venues should also be willing to support the pool community and the streamer is now becoming an intricate part of it.

gxman
09-13-2013, 12:13 AM
75/day and we cant even get a stream of the world 9ball championship til MAYBE the semifinals.

DogsPlayingPool
09-13-2013, 12:29 AM
Dan, I'd gladly pay you $75 to steam the next tournament I have at my house and I don't even want the exposure. :thumbup:

I wish you luck my friend. What you are asking for is not at all unreasonable.

POVPOOL
09-13-2013, 12:37 AM
Over the course of 5 months, I have faithfully invested over $8k in additional equipment to improve the picture quality of my live stream. If you watch the Hard Times 10-Ball and compare it to the quality of any of the Swanee Tournaments I've done in the last two years, you will see a drastic improvement to the quality of the live stream.

I guess I'm still venting... S**TBalls!!!!

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Getting very tired of promoting pool!

The streamer is getting the short end of the stick a little too often!

JB Cases
09-13-2013, 12:52 AM
You're right. Streaming is becoming an integral part of the game and guys like you are going to quit if venues don't realize it.

Johnnyt
09-13-2013, 02:02 AM
It's not my $75 a day or my poolroom, but if they can run an added tournament they should be able to pay $150 for two days of streaming. Have they ever had a streamer come in before? You or another streamer? Something just doesn't sound right here. Johnnyt

naji
09-13-2013, 02:41 AM
I swear these places kill me! Your having a 2-day tournament featuring some of SoCal's top notch players, yet you don't want to donate $75 a day to have me stream it?

And people wonder why the pool world is hurting!

I guess I'm just venting and this point...

Woe is me...LOL

I love your stream, i always look forward to it, true at times the commentating part is not the best, but for free it is a plus.
At times i wonder how photo shops, photographers and streamers can make money, with all digital technology in everyone's hand , literally. I know you probably used to say the quality suffer, but not anymore. When you are hired to video tape a wedding, you do not ask the venue for money, you get it from the bride and groom, and from people attended and welling to buy extra large photo, or a dvd, you will be lucky to get free dinner from the venue.
My problem is if you are not in good term with the venues owners WE are going to loose your free stream and we viewers better come up with some way to compensate hard working people like you. Thank you for everything, keep it coming.

voiceofreason
09-13-2013, 02:58 AM
The issue here is perception of cost/value.

On the one hand povpool says that $75 is good value and on the other the venue won't/can't pay it.

It is completely possible for both of them to be right. $75 clearly is ridiculously cheap for skilled labour but it might also be the case that venue does not see the value as, for whatever reason, it sees marketing in this way to be low priority.

I also agree with a statement that the target for payment of the stream is the TD not the venue. But also, the maths does not always stack up and sometimes goods in kind are easy to collect and actually worth more.

Cover an event in return for free food drink and accomodation for you and your staff. When I used to run tournaments and/or cover events, I would often take places in the tournament as payment. It's an easy thing for a TD to give away and can have significant value. In the higher end tournaments I would then back players in using the places rather than take them myself. I would often make good money this way. I remember one very clearly.. I covered two tours that were back to back and was given two spots in each that were valued at around £700. I put two players in for 50/50 on the winnings. The two players beat each other in the final of the first two events!

Anyway..

Good luck with your venture and unfortunately you will likely be for ever undervalued so regrettably you will have to get used to it!

3andstop
09-13-2013, 04:46 AM
LOL.... Don't mind me, I really thought that after reading the first sentence in the OP Povpool was saying us, the viewers would pay 75 a day for ppv.

The funny part is I was thinking, that's a little high, but I'd be in for 25 a day :grin-square: so long as it was a full day of 1pkt or 14.1 without constant blackouts.

I can't imagine a pool room owner not going for that no matter what the game. There gotta be more to it, no?

JAM
09-13-2013, 04:48 AM
I swear these places kill me! Your having a 2-day tournament featuring some of SoCal's top notch players, yet you don't want to donate $75 a day to have me stream it?

And people wonder why the pool world is hurting!

I guess I'm just venting and this point...

Woe is me...LOL

If I may make a suggestion, it may help for you to create a brochure or a one-page flyer detailing the benefits a would-be pool room host can have by utilizing your services.

This puts it all out there on paper for them to review. Maybe you can e-mail them something to this effect if giving it to them in person is not feasible.

If you can list how the host pool room owner will realize future financial gains from the exposure, it might help you in the long run. :wink:

I mention this becuase I saw a video snippet yesterday on the news about how Jimmy Fallon and Jimmy Kimmel have realized they get more exposure from YouTube clips than they do from their TV shows. They stated they realize that if some viewers miss the TV show that they can always access YouTube to find out what's happening after the fact.

Because of this, they have used social media (YouTube, et al.) to their benefit to promote their TV shows. :cool:

To give you one example of what I mean, Jimmy Kimmel published a "fake" twerking video on YouTube, never revealing it came from him or that it was fake: “We shot the video two months ago and posted it,” Kimmel explained of his publicity stunt/prank. “We didn’t send it to any TV stations and didn’t tweet it… didn’t put on any news websites. We put it on YouTube and just let the magic happen.” Expect Kimmel’s name and the name of his show to be mentioned a bajillion times today on various media outlets as the punk is dissected and debated. Source ---> HERE (http://www.deadline.com/2013/09/jimmy-kimmel-pranks-media-with-fake-twerking-girl-on-fire-video/)

There's ways to utilize the social media outlets to increase revenue by exposure, as illustrated above. I'm not sure how you can relay this to the host pool room owner, but this is something you may want to explore as a communication with them. :)

Scaramouche
09-13-2013, 04:59 AM
Many pool halls don't have a web site.
So they are not sold on the merits of the internet.

A local pool hall will get no benefit from streaming because the viewers who do not already know of the establishment are not prospective customers.

In case you haven't noticed, pool players do not like to travel long distances, even to get to a better place. :D

JB Cases
09-13-2013, 06:02 AM
If I may make a suggestion, it may help for you to create a brochure or a one-page flyer detailing the benefits a would-be pool room host can have by utilizing your services.

This puts it all out there on paper for them to review. Maybe you can e-mail them something to this effect if giving it to them in person is not feasible.

If you can list how the host pool room owner will realize future financial gains from the exposure, it might help you in the long run. :wink:

I mention this becuase I saw a video snippet yesterday on the news about how Jimmy Fallon and Jimmy Kimmel have realized they get more exposure from YouTube clips than they do from their TV shows. They stated they realize that if some viewers miss the TV show that they can always access YouTube to find out what's happening after the fact.

Because of this, they have used social media (YouTube, et al.) to their benefit to promote their TV shows. :cool:

To give you one example of what I mean, Jimmy Kimmel published a "fake" twerking video on YouTube, never revealing it came from him or that it was fake: “We shot the video two months ago and posted it,” Kimmel explained of his publicity stunt/prank. “We didn’t send it to any TV stations and didn’t tweet it… didn’t put on any news websites. We put it on YouTube and just let the magic happen.” Expect Kimmel’s name and the name of his show to be mentioned a bajillion times today on various media outlets as the punk is dissected and debated. Source ---> HERE (http://www.deadline.com/2013/09/jimmy-kimmel-pranks-media-with-fake-twerking-girl-on-fire-video/)

There's ways to utilize the social media outlets to increase revenue by exposure, as illustrated above. I'm not sure how you can relay this to the host pool room owner, but this is something you may want to explore as a communication with them. :)

I'd add that it might good idea for streamers to create a 30 second spot about the room that can be played. I think that locals also tune in and whenever the name of the room can be mentioned on AZB and FB and YouTube it will be indexed in the search engines.

logical
09-13-2013, 06:20 AM
I think as soon as you get beyond the idea that the problem is that your customers are too cheap you'll be much more successful.

Michael-Hoang
09-13-2013, 06:39 AM
$75 a day is incredibly cheap for skilled labor and the amount of work that you put in, as brought it up.

But if the local pool rooms don't even want to put out $75 a day, maybe they don't see any positive returns on it? Here's a POSSIBLE angle to look at why local hosts MIGHT NOT want to put up that $75 a day: They may think that streamings CAN hurt their business. Streaming can keep people that live within reasonable driving distance from attending in person. And by "within reasonable driving distance" I mean people that live 1-4 hours away. So if those people don't show up in person and still can watch live on the computers in the comfort of their homes, that can cause the host locations some possible sales in foods/drinks/table times, etc...

Yes, streamers bring exposures to the hosts to people that live states away. But what can those people living in states away do for the local halls?

I don't own any pool room, just playing devil advocates and throwing ideas out there.

Daniel, you're doing an outstanding job. Your quality of streaming has gotten a whole lot better. As far as I know, you are now 1 of the 5 mainstream streamers: you, TAR, Accu-stats, Bigtruck and Insidepool.

But You are fighting an uphill battle. Actually, the ENTIRE industry is fighting a gigantic uphill battle. I hope to see you and the local hosts work it out.

cueaddicts
09-13-2013, 06:51 AM
$75 a day is incredibly cheap for skilled labor and the amount of work that you put in, as brought it up.

But if the local pool rooms don't even want to put out $75 a day, maybe they don't see any positive returns on it? Here's a POSSIBLE angle to look at why local hosts MIGHT NOT want to put up that $75 a day: They may think that streamings CAN hurt their business. Streaming can keep people that live within reasonable driving distance from attending in person. And by "within reasonable driving distance" I mean people that live 1-4 hours away. So if those people don't show up in person and still can watch live on the computers in the comfort of their homes, that can cause the host locations some possible sales in foods/drinks/table times, etc...

Yes, streamers bring exposures to the hosts to people that live states away. But what can those people living in states away do for the local halls?

I don't own any pool room, just playing devil advocates and throwing ideas out there.

Daniel, you're doing an outstanding job. Your quality of streaming has gotten a whole lot better. As far as I know, you are now 1 of the 5 mainstream streamers: you, TAR, Accu-stats, Bigtruck and Insidepool.

But You are fighting an uphill battle. Actually, the ENTIRE industry is fighting a gigantic uphill battle. I hope to see you and the local hosts work it out.

Michael, you bring up an excellent, insightful point. For all the benefit streaming an event may bring, it may actually prevent paying customers from coming in the door. Perhaps all parties (room owners, streamers, sponsors, donations, etc.) can collaborate in other ways to help bring revenue in to the establishment. Lord knows, room owners need all the help they can get nowadays.

Maybe anytime a stream is done, there's a door prize ('raffle'...something nice) that's offered with x number of tickets given for various levels of spending done in person at the establishment. This can be advertised on the stream, so that people nearby can be given a little more incentive to attend in person.

justadub
09-13-2013, 07:41 AM
Michael, you bring up an excellent, insightful point. For all the benefit streaming an event may bring, it may actually prevent paying customers from coming in the door. Perhaps all parties (room owners, streamers, sponsors, donations, etc.) can collaborate in other ways to help bring revenue in to the establishment. Lord knows, room owners need all the help they can get nowadays.

Maybe anytime a stream is done, there's a door prize ('raffle'...something nice) that's offered with x number of tickets given for various levels of spending done in person at the establishment. This can be advertised on the stream, so that people nearby can be given a little more incentive to attend in person.

Good ideas, tho you do have to careful regarding raffles, esp requiring a purchase. I'm sure different states have different rules about this sort of thing.

Doesn't mean its not a good idea, just that you wanna make sure of the regulations before you do it, so as to not create a problem tor the room owner.

I agree that its a shame that the OP can't get $75 a day to cover a tourney. That seems remarkably inexpensive to me. Of course, I don't know the particulars from the room owner side. Seems like an opportunity missed, to me.

I like the idea above about a 30 second spot for the room owner, esp for smaller events. Bigger events would likely involve other advertisers, so such a deal might not be workable.

JB Cases
09-13-2013, 07:54 AM
I think as soon as you get beyond the idea that the problem is that your customers are too cheap you'll be much more successful.

I guess a good question would be who are the customers? Is the venue the customer?

I think Daniel has been given a lot of good suggestions here. One of them would be to prepare something that illustrates the benefit to the room of having him there.

rayjay
09-13-2013, 08:27 AM
Tennis' US Open just concluded. The women's winner, Serena Williams, won a total of $3.6 million for her performance. The entire tournament, including men's and women's championship matches, were streamed live for free. Just thinking....

BasementDweller
09-13-2013, 08:45 AM
Don't feel so bad. Apparently, the folks running the WPA WORLD NINE-BALL CHAMPIONSHIPS can't afford to have their event streamed.

Talk about sad. I don't get it.

watchez
09-13-2013, 09:01 AM
The problem is not you or even the room owner. The problem is the pool players. A pool room adds $1000, $2000 or more to a pool tournament, 60 players show up. The pool room is giving their space during a time when they normally should be busy anyways - the weekend. The 60 pool players will spend an average of $8 a piece over the weekend. Some spectators show up and spend a little more. The pool room, after added money and loss of normal revenue, is lucky to break even.

The pool room was even before it started.

Next time you see some pool player eating McDonalds in the parking lot during a tournament or pulling out a bottle and mixing his own drink in the bathroom, let them know that they are hurting pool and making it so the pool room can't afford to promote thru streaming.

bdorman
09-13-2013, 09:03 AM
I feel for you Dan, but it's just another indication that there's no money in pool. The pains of a shrinking industry.

I'm sure you've already thought of this idea, but I'd find 2-3 sponsors like a production cue maker, cloth maker, etc and offer to run a 30-second spot for them in every match. If they don't already have a 30-second spot you could make a simple one for them...if they agree to sponsor the stream for 10 events a year. Put their logos in the corner of the screen between racks. Five "commentary" mentions each match. I think you've already done some of this in the past - I'd just make it my focus because I don't see a lot of value to the venue.

Important to note that the sponsors of the tournament get nothing from you. Simonis does not get mentioned during the stream just because it's a sponsor of the tournament. If it wants a commercial message during the stream it has to become a stream sponsor. I see no reason to mention the venue unless it sponsors too; the viewer doesn't care where the match is happening -it's in his living room.

Best of luck. I really enjoy your streams (actually I see them after-the-fact as youtube videos...but appreciate them none the less).

ShanksMcShankly
09-13-2013, 09:41 AM
There's some pretty good thoughts and angles in the posts so far. To me it boils down to "if you build it, they will come". Which you have been doing this whole time and and doing a great job if I do say so myself.

You have great streams and videos! I've definitely noticed an improvement in quality as well. I know you get tons of views and if you keep improving and providing quality content then I'm sure you're clout and credibility will grow with it. Once venues, promoters, and sponsors start realizing the reach you have then they'll start paying.

Social media is just getting bigger and bigger as far as commercial opportunities goes. You're doing great so far, I hope you find it worth your while to keep at it.

Good luck to you brother :thumbup:

logical
09-13-2013, 10:12 AM
To me it boils down to "if you build it, they will come". :thumbup:

.As long as by "it", you don't mean a Bonus Ball arena in Las Vegas.

greenroomms
09-13-2013, 11:05 AM
isn't this the same stream that always freezes and stuff like that? if it is i wouldn't pay to view a stream or to be the host of the stream

Blue Hog ridr
09-13-2013, 12:03 PM
I have watched several of your streams. They are well run and the commentary is good.

If people want to be under appreciative of a good service for such a low price, don't bang your head into the wall. Just say, " Later guys".

They will come to realize sooner or later of what they missed out on.

Then you can tell them to go blow some goats.

DogsPlayingPool
09-13-2013, 12:27 PM
isn't this the same stream that always freezes and stuff like that? if it is i wouldn't pay to view a stream or to be the host of the stream

No, that was Bonus Ball.

Blue Hog ridr
09-13-2013, 12:49 PM
Uh huh, with 100 K worth of equipment.
I believe that when you purchase that much in Video equipment, it also comes with a
Streaming Excuse Book.

jimmyg
09-13-2013, 12:57 PM
Tennis' US Open just concluded. The women's winner, Serena Williams, won a total of $3.6 million for her performance. The entire tournament, including men's and women's championship matches, were streamed live for free. Just thinking....

Advertisers, sponsors, cable subscribers....Just saying. :smile:

J

Majic
09-13-2013, 03:00 PM
Here's the deal...

I've spent 2 years establishing the brand, the stream, promoting the players, the venue, the sponsors and not to mention the very game of pool.

I've given of myself for 2 years, and done it for free on many occasions, but there comes a point when, if someone thinks that it would be a good idea for me to show up with me 2-3 cameras and stream at your venue for at least 12 hours a day, commentate and sweat the matches, promote your venue and tell the audience how awesome the spot is, the service, the amenities, the quality of the tables; you'd think that $75 a day would be negligible.

Yes, I can go with sponsors...
Yes, you, the public could make donations...
Yes, I could do it Pay Per View
Yes, I could even do it totally for free and HOPE the content keeps my name out there

But, seriously, the venue should also see the value in this type of promotion.

Matches go up to YouTube and are constantly viewed thousands of time with multiple mentions of the venue and tournament directors.

I just F***ing hate people that are cheap but still think they are gonna get what they want.

Bottom line in my perspective: The venues should also be willing to support the pool community and the streamer is now becoming an intricate part of it.

I totally agree with you..........you do good work too.

macguy
09-13-2013, 03:04 PM
I swear these places kill me! Your having a 2-day tournament featuring some of SoCal's top notch players, yet you don't want to donate $75 a day to have me stream it?

And people wonder why the pool world is hurting!

I guess I'm just venting and this point...

Woe is me...LOL

It's not much money. I suspect they are just not interested. It's their right without having to be insulted.

backplaying
09-13-2013, 03:10 PM
LOL.... Don't mind me, I really thought that after reading the first sentence in the OP Povpool was saying us, the viewers would pay 75 a day for ppv.

The funny part is I was thinking, that's a little high, but I'd be in for 25 a day :grin-square: so long as it was a full day of 1pkt or 14.1 without constant blackouts.

I can't imagine a pool room owner not going for that no matter what the game. There gotta be more to it, no?

That's what I thought and I knew he wouldn't get many to pay 75.00 a day to watch a stream. I had no idea he was talking about a total of 75.00. Pool is one of the cheapest sports in the world and most players are also.

rayjay
09-13-2013, 03:42 PM
Advertisers, sponsors, cable subscribers....Just saying. :smile:

J

And an audience!
:D

JCIN
09-13-2013, 04:24 PM
It's not much money. I suspect they are just not interested. It's their right without having to be insulted.

Thats how I see it.

They said no to a business proposition.

Coming here and posting about it doesnt serve anyone well. But I understand the frustration.

If I bid on a job and someone doesnt want to pay me what I feel is fair I just move on. Its nothing personal. I have found that by pricing my work for a fair price the work I do get is quality work. If you low ball yourself people will not value your work.

As to the value a stream has for a venue doing a small event...I honestly do not see much of one. Outside of vanity and maybe convenience. Streaming audiences are so small and spread out its hard to show a real return to a room owner. Sure four hundred people may know he had an event but 395 of them live over a hundred miles away.

The Youtube archive angle is where the real value would be. There are lots of things that can be done with that would add value to a room owner. One thing that could add value is to shoot a simple 30 second spot on site for the room and give it to the owner to do with as he wants. Include it in the package price.

End of the day it all comes down to the same problem. A thing is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. In pool lots of people want good streaming or photography but very few are willing to pay for it.

Nostroke
09-13-2013, 04:54 PM
I am gong to less and less tournaments because hey there is streaming. Sitting in the comfort of your home vs standing on your tip toes to try to get a view of the table. No contest-Im staying home -free or PPV- it doesn't matter? A few exceptions for friend in final-perfect weather, but virtually any hassle and im stayin home.

DogsPlayingPool
09-14-2013, 08:01 AM
I am gong to less and less tournaments because hey there is streaming. Sitting in the comfort of your home vs standing on your tip toes to try to get a view of the table. No contest-Im staying home -free or PPV- it doesn't matter? A few exceptions for friend in final-perfect weather, but virtually any hassle and im stayin home.

I can appreciate that though for me personally it applies more in other sports than pool. Until the tournament gets down to one or two tables there are too many matches going on that you don't get to see on a stream because they don't happen to be taking place on the stream table.

But your point made me think of something. I've yet to see the telecast of a streamed event played be through the TVs at the pool hall. If they did this, everyone in the place could relax in the lounge area or play at one of the open tables, and eat and drink (i.e. spend money) - and everyone in the house would have that good seat you are talking about. If I was a room owner this would be worth $75 to me.

rexus31
09-14-2013, 08:08 AM
What is the event in question?

dorabelle
09-14-2013, 08:20 AM
I always wondered how long POV could go on streaming for free.

JoeW
09-14-2013, 08:35 AM
Here is one of the basic things I learned about contracting out services. If I go to them they want it cheap or for free. If they come to me, they pay my rate.

So --- how do you get them to come to you.

BTW in my area many of the contracts were let by RFP (request for proposal). I usually did not even submit a bid until I had the inside track. That is, someone on the committee already knew me and my work.

Sorry but that is the way the world works.

Those who have said that you need easily referenced examples of your work and an infomercial that teaches about the benefit derived from your work are on the right track.

I also learned that when you are on the bleeding edge of your technology people want to be there with you. You not only have to be proficient, you have to be beyond the competition.

FordSVTCobra
09-14-2013, 10:53 AM
What is the event in question?

I had the same question.

Bavafongoul
09-14-2013, 12:03 PM
If the streaming is provided by POVPOOL to viewers of the tournament thru the Internet free of charge, then he is donating a lot of free time to making the streaming possible and admittedly, is being grossly underpaid. And what's provided free today, if and when it grows in popularity, all too often becomes a fee paid service. And there's nothing wrong with that as long as the market realizes what the ultimate objective is.........Medicare Advantage plans were provided free of charge the last five years and had enormous growth.....tens of millions joined.........and now everyone in those plans have to pay for their plans where it was previously provided free of charge.

The aforementioned example is real and the was always to true intention was to always charge for belonging to one of these Medicare Advantage plans. The free membership was meant to just attract as many new enrollees as possible by offering these plans free of charge......until the membership numbers reached the point that these health insurance companies owned the marketplace and could charge anything they now want.

And before anyone posts that Obamacare has caused all of this, just shut up now. These Medicare Advantage plans were created under President Bush back in 2005/6 when President Obama was just a senator. Th health insurance industry just saw the opportunity, seized upon it and are now raking in hundreds of millions of dollars in premiums for the same plans that were offered free for the past 6 years. This was all just marketing strategies by the insurance companies to sign up as many new enrollees as possible as fast as possible and free of charge plans were the enticement. Things aren't always what it appears to be...........you have to pull back the curtains a little to ascertain the true, underlying motives.

Ergo, if POVPOOL receives 75 a day as his remuneration to perform the streaming service, and then he also charges viewers to access this streaming, then he has nothing to gripe about whatsoever as this thread is counterfeit. There's nothing to debate or campaign about because that would be equivalent to a door to door salesperson griping that their last sales appointment was just too cheap, or stupid, to pass up buying the world's greatest vacuum that he just happened to be selling that same day when he knocked on the last appointment's door........Duh?

If $75 is all POVPOOL gets and he doesn't market or sell access to the streaming for a fee, he's doing the pool industry a genuine favor. However, if he charges viewers to have access to the streaming, even as little as $1.99, then this thread is pure hogwash. I really do not know how POVPOOL approaches this business or what his ultimate marketing plan is but rest assured, this is a business.......expense records are maintained, equipment is capitalized/depreciated, P&L statement gets produced etc. If that were the case, this should not be about trying to gain support or bolster in any way some AZer's business because the marketplace always tells you if your product is needed, competitive and priced right.

So you tell me.....and keep in mind that what's may be provided relatively inexpensive right now does not always remain that way if and when it catches on. I think there's a lot more involved here than just some tournament operators being too cheap to pay him $75 to stream the video. Anyway, nothing in life is free and POVPOOL may be the most noble, generous person around and the flip side could be he is just trying to rally interest and support in his streaming services so he can grow the business, or at least start to turn a profit. I do not know which version applies more but others on the Forum are certain to know more about this than me.

popman
09-14-2013, 08:40 PM
That's what I thought and I knew he wouldn't get many to pay 75.00 a day to watch a stream. I had no idea he was talking about a total of 75.00. Pool is one of the cheapest sports in the world and most players are also.

Wait a minute!

$75.00 / day is not cheap! Because it's not $75.00 / day. If you have a thousand people watching the stream, that's not $75.00 / day....that's $75,000.00 /day!

That's pretty expensive labor for one day's work, if you ask me.

Jaden
09-14-2013, 08:53 PM
Wait a minute!

$75.00 / day is not cheap! Because it's not $75.00 / day. If you have a thousand people watching the stream, that's not $75.00 / day....that's $75,000.00 /day!

That's pretty expensive labor for one day's work, if you ask me.

He was asking the venue to pay a total of 75 per day so he could stream it FREE to the public.

Jaden

p.s. Daniel I feel your pain. I did a free stream where all I got was reduced entries for me and my friend.

JCIN
09-14-2013, 11:00 PM
Wait a minute!

$75.00 / day is not cheap! Because it's not $75.00 / day. If you have a thousand people watching the stream, that's not $75.00 / day....that's $75,000.00 /day!

That's pretty expensive labor for one day's work, if you ask me.

Jaden already cleared it up but I gotta say this really cracked me up.

I love it when pool people do math. Everyone in the industry automatically becomes rich as balls. If it only worked like that.

prewarhero
09-14-2013, 11:38 PM
If the streaming is provided by POVPOOL to viewers of the tournament thru the Internet free of charge, then he is donating a lot of free time to making the streaming possible and admittedly, is being grossly underpaid. And what's provided free today, if and when it grows in popularity, all too often becomes a fee paid service. And there's nothing wrong with that as long as the market realizes what the ultimate objective is.........Medicare Advantage plans were provided free of charge the last five years and had enormous growth.....tens of millions joined.........and now everyone in those plans have to pay for their plans where it was previously provided free of charge.

The aforementioned example is real and the was always to true intention was to always charge for belonging to one of these Medicare Advantage plans. The free membership was meant to just attract as many new enrollees as possible by offering these plans free of charge......until the membership numbers reached the point that these health insurance companies owned the marketplace and could charge anything they now want.

And before anyone posts that Obamacare has caused all of this, just shut up now. These Medicare Advantage plans were created under President Bush back in 2005/6 when President Obama was just a senator. Th health insurance industry just saw the opportunity, seized upon it and are now raking in hundreds of millions of dollars in premiums for the same plans that were offered free for the past 6 years. This was all just marketing strategies by the insurance companies to sign up as many new enrollees as possible as fast as possible and free of charge plans were the enticement. Things aren't always what it appears to be...........you have to pull back the curtains a little to ascertain the true, underlying motives.

Ergo, if POVPOOL receives 75 a day as his remuneration to perform the streaming service, and then he also charges viewers to access this streaming, then he has nothing to gripe about whatsoever as this thread is counterfeit. There's nothing to debate or campaign about because that would be equivalent to a door to door salesperson griping that their last sales appointment was just too cheap, or stupid, to pass up buying the world's greatest vacuum that he just happened to be selling that same day when he knocked on the last appointment's door........Duh?

If $75 is all POVPOOL gets and he doesn't market or sell access to the streaming for a fee, he's doing the pool industry a genuine favor. However, if he charges viewers to have access to the streaming, even as little as $1.99, then this thread is pure hogwash. I really do not know how POVPOOL approaches this business or what his ultimate marketing plan is but rest assured, this is a business.......expense records are maintained, equipment is capitalized/depreciated, P&L statement gets produced etc. If that were the case, this should not be about trying to gain support or bolster in any way some AZer's business because the marketplace always tells you if your product is needed, competitive and priced right.

So you tell me.....and keep in mind that what's may be provided relatively inexpensive right now does not always remain that way if and when it catches on. I think there's a lot more involved here than just some tournament operators being too cheap to pay him $75 to stream the video. Anyway, nothing in life is free and POVPOOL may be the most noble, generous person around and the flip side could be he is just trying to rally interest and support in his streaming services so he can grow the business, or at least start to turn a profit. I do not know which version applies more but others on the Forum are certain to know more about this than me.

The premise of your position is faulty, it rests on the idea that the merit of POV's post is based on wether or not he receives income from the stream watchers. It just may be that any growth in the pool industry will be organically by the efforts of those that put their passion ahead of money. Pool is filled with people who support our passion and money comes very difficult to them and it is certainly not why they do it. So what if POV charges viewers? It is certainly justified as simply a cost of making it happen. Asking for donations... well I'll just say it probably won't work.

Justin was right. It simply has little value to the local room and it wasn't the money. My advice, charge us! Makes his efforts none less valuable to the community.

Go POV!

JohnnyP
09-14-2013, 11:51 PM
Daniel:

Free is good but I would rather have to log in and pay $5 than lose your stream.

POVPOOL
09-15-2013, 02:10 AM
I'm going to consider doing this event PPV. That being said, I will offer them $150 to do it.

I will not disclose the location or the event merely for the fact that this is not the intention of the thread... To slam the venue or the owner.

Thanks for all the suggestions... These guys paid me $200 to do the same stream last year but because I did Hard Times for free so many times, I think that they think I'm going to bend over backwards again and do, yet another free stream.

Maybe it's my fault for setting a precedent.

Hard Times Billiards still doesn't want to pay me unless they sponsor something big like a "Hard Times 10-Ball" event.

It's interesting to note though that some of you think that streaming doesn't hold value to a venue or that streaming might stop viewers from coming to the venue.. Visa vie: that streaming may pose a threat to people coming into the venue during an event an spending money.

There are 2 reasons why this is not valid

1. If POV Pool promotes the tournament and the stream early on, it almost always guarantees that said event will not only have a full bracket based on the merit of my promotional power, but also that additional spectators will arrive to sweat the action because they know certain players will be present. I know this from experience.

2. The value of those streamed matches being on YouTube and the promotion of the venue during those streams gives value to the venue because they receive limitless promotion which is viewed by thousands over the course of time. The stream promotes the venue is the general idea, here.

This particular stream will be one-pocket, which has an enormous viral following. People are hungry for one-pocket action because one-pocket gets little attention, yet is often hailed as the 'best pool game ever invented'. This is another reason why I would like to do the stream. Because I feel that one-pocket is so important to pool fans.

For those wondering if I'm making any other monies outside of the $75 per day that i'm asking for... Yes, a little here and a little there always helps. Enough to keep my justifying doing live streams... But Jesus! I'm not greedy folks. I'm just trying to cover my gas, pay my rent and write of my losses to Uncle Sam! Donations come in but never enough to make it worth my while. It has to be a little here and a little there....

Pay Per View might be the route, here...

;)

cueaddicts
09-15-2013, 05:30 AM
If the streaming is provided by POVPOOL to viewers of the tournament thru the Internet free of charge, then he is donating a lot of free time to making the streaming possible and admittedly, is being grossly underpaid. And what's provided free today, if and when it grows in popularity, all too often becomes a fee paid service. And there's nothing wrong with that as long as the market realizes what the ultimate objective is.........Medicare Advantage plans were provided free of charge the last five years and had enormous growth.....tens of millions joined.........and now everyone in those plans have to pay for their plans where it was previously provided free of charge.

The aforementioned example is real and the was always to true intention was to always charge for belonging to one of these Medicare Advantage plans. The free membership was meant to just attract as many new enrollees as possible by offering these plans free of charge......until the membership numbers reached the point that these health insurance companies owned the marketplace and could charge anything they now want.

And before anyone posts that Obamacare has caused all of this, just shut up now. These Medicare Advantage plans were created under President Bush back in 2005/6 when President Obama was just a senator. Th health insurance industry just saw the opportunity, seized upon it and are now raking in hundreds of millions of dollars in premiums for the same plans that were offered free for the past 6 years. This was all just marketing strategies by the insurance companies to sign up as many new enrollees as possible as fast as possible and free of charge plans were the enticement. Things aren't always what it appears to be...........you have to pull back the curtains a little to ascertain the true, underlying motives.

Ergo, if POVPOOL receives 75 a day as his remuneration to perform the streaming service, and then he also charges viewers to access this streaming, then he has nothing to gripe about whatsoever as this thread is counterfeit. There's nothing to debate or campaign about because that would be equivalent to a door to door salesperson griping that their last sales appointment was just too cheap, or stupid, to pass up buying the world's greatest vacuum that he just happened to be selling that same day when he knocked on the last appointment's door........Duh?

If $75 is all POVPOOL gets and he doesn't market or sell access to the streaming for a fee, he's doing the pool industry a genuine favor. However, if he charges viewers to have access to the streaming, even as little as $1.99, then this thread is pure hogwash. I really do not know how POVPOOL approaches this business or what his ultimate marketing plan is but rest assured, this is a business.......expense records are maintained, equipment is capitalized/depreciated, P&L statement gets produced etc. If that were the case, this should not be about trying to gain support or bolster in any way some AZer's business because the marketplace always tells you if your product is needed, competitive and priced right.

So you tell me.....and keep in mind that what's may be provided relatively inexpensive right now does not always remain that way if and when it catches on. I think there's a lot more involved here than just some tournament operators being too cheap to pay him $75 to stream the video. Anyway, nothing in life is free and POVPOOL may be the most noble, generous person around and the flip side could be he is just trying to rally interest and support in his streaming services so he can grow the business, or at least start to turn a profit. I do not know which version applies more but others on the Forum are certain to know more about this than me.

#1....$75 pay per day to go through the trouble of running a live stream event is stupid cheap.

#2....Matt, I can say without hesitation that you have NO CLUE what you are talking about when it comes to Medicare Part C (Medicare Advantage) health plans. Your info is so incorrect and skewed that it's silly. You make it sound like all MA plans have been free for the last six years and beneficiaries are forced to pay more. That couldn't be further from the truth, lol.

I suggest you do some research on this industry before you spew off such incredible drivel in an attempt to discredit the Bush administration. Medicare Advantage plans were never free, some options may have been "free" as you call it, but that "free" meant that enrollees could enroll in that plan and have to pay no additional premium, meaning their Part A and B premiums that they already pay would cover that particular MA plan. People who sign up for all MA plans are only enrolled for a period of one (1) year and each fall during open enrollment, they are free to change insurance companies and switch to a different plan or withdraw from the program altogether and return to traditional Medicare FFS (Part A and B). You see, they have choice. They are not forced to keep their plan or "forced to pay more" as you call it.

Last time I checked, Medicare Choice originated with the passage of the Balanced Budget Act of 1997 by the 105th Congress, which was in session during Bill Clinton's presidency. This law simply offered Medicare beneficiaries different choices of how to receive those benefits....or remain with the status quo. There was a great demand by beneficiaries who wanted to pay extra in, so they could receive additional benefits that are not covered under the Medicare program. A few examples of these additional benefits are prescription drug benefit (the big one), routine dental & vision, acupuncture, hearing aids, and foot care.

Are there some good things about the program? Yes.
Is the program flawless? Of course not. (it's overseen by the federal govt)
Do you have a clue what you are talking about with it? Sorry, but obviously not.

Btw, Medicare premiums aren't stagnant, they keep increasing too. Damn that sorry President Obama for increasing the poor seniors' health coverage costs. http://seniorjournal.com/NEWS/Medicare/2011/20121027-MedicareAnnouncesPremiums.htm

Btw again, PPACA has and will continue to increase health care costs for everyone in this country. It's simple math really. You can't mandate more things be covered and expect it to cost less. Any idiot can figure than out. Bad idea all the way around.

Go study a little, get educated and then we can have a sensible discussion on the merits or lack of merits with MA plans.

randytabares
09-15-2013, 06:43 AM
Daniel, I had shoulder surgery the week that Alex and Scott played one pocket at HardTimes. You could have made that a Pay Per View but you didn't. I watched all of the Swanee and the one pocket match. I was stuck in my recliner for 5 days. Watching pool and playing makes me happy. I would pay you to stream at my house playing the ghost. Lol. hopefully you continue to do what you do.

3RAILKICK
09-15-2013, 06:38 PM
Daniel...Hope this works out for everyone.

I really enjoyed the Alex/Frost 1P stream. Rich's commentating was great...while it lasted:thumbup:

I'll buy the stream.

maha
09-15-2013, 10:09 PM
its a business deal between you and the owner. he obviously doesnt think he will make more than 150 because of the streaming. you have to show him it will.

so you have to do something to make him believe he will profit from it. maybe it boils down to it his place and you should pay him from the proceeds from using his business to further yours.

JohnnyP
09-15-2013, 10:20 PM
I agree, One Pocket Rich was great for after hours commentary.

APA BRIAN
09-16-2013, 12:51 AM
I know it sounds ridiculous not to pay 75 bucks a day for a stream. And in many aspects it is a little ridiculous/pathetic. But So Cal pool halls have been hurting and closing. Rent is HIGH. Its just tough to keep the doors open. I don't know what the financial situation of this place is... but, maybe its as simple as, there isn't 150 dollars worth of extra pie to go around. Unless the OP knows the owner has plenty of cash... was there a reason given for not wanting to do the stream?

GaryB
09-16-2013, 02:39 AM
Daniel your hard work should not go unrewarded. You know that you get your appreciation but that does not cover the nut. Pay per view is great for those events that have the attractions--good competitive players and the potential for great pool. Make those streams available at a 2nd or 3rd viewing free for those who paid for the initial Stream. Example: I pay the Pay for View but because of an unexpected family matter I am unable to watch the initial stream, but also since I have paid in advance let me view it later that night or the following day. Just make sure that I get my monies worth. Your stream are really appreciated and I have watched my share of the FREE ones and certainly won't begrudge a reasonable Pay For View. For 1 Hole, Richie's commentary is cool especially for 1 Hole. We all know that in 1 Hole especially, that their are creative people who don't see the balls the same as us. All of a sudden one these shots come out nowhere, at least not where we were looking and miraculously the table is totally changed and we all go "What the f---k? Wishing at that moment we all had a DVR in our head that could play the shot back to our selfs, A simple "excuse my French" and an explanation of what happen and an effort to contain himself for awhile should be sufficient. Don't take the mike away. I really appreciate the work that you do and the excellent pool I have been able to watch while undergoing cancer treatments, So to reiterate Pay For View is fine for me, especially a quality stream. Pick and choose the attractive and potentially exiting matches. Let me know in advance and I'll participate and I'll still give you $20.00 extra each time that I see you for a special desert at Chris & Pitts.
G. "Charlie" Brown

Bavafongoul
09-16-2013, 12:03 PM
Sean.....you are admittedly very knowledgeable about pool cues but pretty uninformed about Medicare.
To sell health insurance products, you must have a real estate/insurance license in most states as far as I know......I have mine....how about you?

Yes,,,1997......I recall that period very well but Sean, you're really out of touch..........Just read below which happened under the George Bush Presidency.....I trust you'll recall the period that he was our President. If you wanna battle which you're inclined to do with me, then send me a PM and keep it off the public Forum.
BUT PLEASE DO NOT SPREAD FALSE INFORMATION........GET THE FACTS RIGHT...........PLEASE.......PLEASE READ BELOW CAREFULLY & TAKE NOTES!


Congress enacted Medicare Advantage as part of the Medicare Modernization Act of 2003.

While best known for creating the costly universal prescription drug entitlement, the Act also replaced Medicare Plus Choice (Medicare Part C)—a program created under the Balanced Budget Act of 1997 that allowed Medicare recipients to choose coverage from among several private plans—with Medicare Advantage.

Medicare Advantage has several features that are superior to previous private health plan experiments: an improvement in financing and a greater level of market penetration and stability than Medicare Plus Choice. Most important, it gives senior and disabled citizens new and different private health plan options, affordable care, and broader and better benefits, including care management programs and embedded prescription drug coverage with some versions of the Advantage Plans.

NUF SED........



And the health insurance industry marketed and extensively sold these "free" Medicare Advantage Plans from 2004 thru 2008 for free (no premium) until the government subsidy to private 3rd party providers of Medicare services, like United Health Care, Kaiser, Aetna, Blue Shield, Humana, etc., was discontinued under the Affordable Health Care Act. Medicare was previously paying these firms more than a $1,000 per month for every Medicare enrollee....yup over $12,000 annually for every Medicare enrollee........and that's why these firms were all racing to sign as many seniors up as possible as fast as possible......because once you got 'em, these new enrollees immediately turned into a cash cow for these firms. And how do I know all this..... I was a licensed agent for United Health Care & others and Medicare and retirement/insurance products were my specialty.

Sean, you should stick to pool cues because you are really off base on this topic buddy.....we're not debating the value of pool cues in which case I'd likely defer to you.......but not this topic 'cause you're in my domain and I'm quoting the real, hard cold facts. You really shouldn't start a quarrel on a topic you seemingly have only cursory knowledge, especially when the contra side has expertise on the subject matter. It is always your privilege to criticize or disagree with me which seems to have become a recent tendency of yours but's that's really inconsequential to my reply. But the one thing you cannot ever do, nor will I allow you to ever do, is alter, distort or misquote genuine facts, dates, or any portion of Medicare Regulations.............Don't start acting like Senator Ted Cruz and just start making stuff up and babbling off untruthful statements............After all is said and done, genuine facts or equivalent empirical data still has meaning and importance for most of us.