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Johnnyt
09-14-2013, 02:42 AM
The more I think of the 16 man pro player invite only tour, the more possibilities I can see coming out of it. When the 16 man tour shows it will work for players and promoters both, many things can grow from it. You can add a few more players a little at a time until you have 32. With 16 players 2 8 player ring games a few times a year. Also you can split the 16 into 4 man teams a few times a year. You can also have 8 doubles teams a few times a year. Lastly you can draw two guys for TAR type match ups when ever the time and the players have a grudge between each other. There are other ways to use the 16 pro players I'm sure. Johnnyt

336Robin
09-14-2013, 02:51 AM
The more I think of the 16 man pro player invite only tour, the more possibilities I can see coming out of it. When the 16 man tour shows it will work for players and promoters both, many things can grow from it. You can add a few more players a little at a time until you have 32. With 16 players 2 8 player ring games a few times a year. Also you can split the 16 into 4 man teams a few times a year. You can also have 8 doubles teams a few times a year. Lastly you can draw two guys for TAR type match ups when ever the time and the players have a grudge between each other. There are other ways to use the 16 pro players I'm sure. Johnnyt

Johnnyt,
I agree in that pool is a spectator sport. People want to see it. A small pro tour, charge admission to see it up close and personal. Now you have to have a place for it. Seating and vendors...now you have a Tradeshow. Now you have problems galore. You need a lot of stuff to do that, people to put up money etc etc.

I think Pool Rooms need to be constructed in order to provide the venue for such events, that would solve a whole lot of problems.

Johnnyt
09-14-2013, 03:03 AM
I'm no TD but for a 16 man event with a 30 second shot clock with one ex per game I would think two (2) tables would work. A promoter or TD can correct me if I'm wrong. The same 16 players playing weekly, bi weekly, or monthly will get name recognition quickly for fans to follow their favorites. With facebook and other social media it can happen very fast. Johnnyt

3andstop
09-14-2013, 03:03 AM
I dunno Johnny, not a bad idea, but the first thing that came to my mind was if rotation wasn't redundant enough, watching it with the same 16 players would be too much.

Maybe that's just me. For me even a game like 8 ball would be better.

Johnnyt
09-14-2013, 03:10 AM
I dunno Johnny, not a bad idea, but the first thing that came to my mind was if rotation wasn't redundant enough, watching it with the same 16 players would be too much.

Maybe that's just me. For me even a game like 8 ball would be better.

Events can 8,9,10, and 15 ball rotation. Also 14.1 and one pocket a few times a year. Johnnyt

Dopc
09-14-2013, 03:58 AM
Allow me to add my thoughts and ideas. Keeping the OPs original thought and adding a twist.

In addition to the 16 player invitational field, why not make each stop a 32 player tournament field. Where do the other 16 players come from you ask. Simple, in the weeks before the visit at that particular location, have a series of qualifier tournaments for the local talent to compete for positions to join the field of pros'. Taking the top 4 from 4 separate qualifying events held in the previous weeks leading up to the main tournament.

In my opinion, everybody wins here. The local talent gets the opportunity to rub shoulders and compete with the pro's. The room owner gets the added revenue generated from not just the one single main event, but also the previous weeks leading to that main event.The qualifier tournaments entry fees build up prize money for the main event making it attractive for the traveling pro's.

This must be streamed for free to entice growing support from all over. It offers people the chance to see talent they otherwise would never have had the chance to discover before. Try to get some trade industry involved in the deal as much as possible and are willing to contribute or advertise with.

Everybody wins here with the exception of the possibility of some pro's getting bruised egos from some of the local undiscovered talent that's in every town. It nearly eliminates the cost of travel for the local talent, as the tournament trail comes to them. In most cases the qualifying players would more than likely be beat out of the competition anyways, unless there is a truly strong local lurking waiting to get discovered.

Or, is this a really, really bad idea and I should go to bed......

Dopc.

JCIN
09-14-2013, 05:10 AM
I.... came to my mind was if rotation wasn't redundant enough, watching it with the same 16 players would be too much.


Kinda like watching the same 40 NASCAR drivers race every weekend from February to November? Whole lot of people seem to dig that.

People need to get to know players in order to give a shit if they win or lose. Its hard to do that in 64-128 man fields. Once you had a 16 man structure in place you could do any thing with it. This week we play a one pocket event. Next week is ten ball. Whatever. If people will pay attention to whatever you are doing then it means there are options.

The days of big events are coming to end. No one makes any money at them. Players or promoters. And the last year has made some of the people who do them decide the juice just isnt worth the squeeze anymore. That means shit is going to change. I want to see it create the seed of something that can grow. Otherwise its all gonna be $2000 added regional events with a couple of invitationals and the odd week long tournament. No structure. No future. No growth.

I have been working on the 16 man idea for several years. It makes lots of sense. There are the same problems you always have with regard to money, logistics and schedule but with a small field they are much more manageable.. Honestly one of the biggest problems for me deciding how much time and effort I want to invest in it is the question of what happens if it actually got off the ground and it starts to work? According to history the players will then screw things up. I like to think that could be addressed before hand but honestly I don't know if it would be worth all the trouble.

If there is no structure then there is nothing. How do you get a self sustaining structure? Soon as that happens there will be a shot.

IMO of course.

JCIN
09-14-2013, 05:14 AM
Allow me to add my thoughts and ideas. Keeping the OPs original thought and adding a twist.

In addition to the 16 player invitational field, why not make each stop a 32 player tournament field. Where do the other 16 players come from you ask. Simple, in the weeks before the visit at that particular location, have a series of qualifier tournaments for the local talent to compete for positions to join the field of pros'. Taking the top 4 from 4 separate qualifying events held in the previous weeks leading up to the main tournament.

In my opinion, everybody wins here. The local talent gets the opportunity to rub shoulders and compete with the pro's. The room owner gets the added revenue generated from not just the one single main event, but also the previous weeks leading to that main event.The qualifier tournaments entry fees build up prize money for the main event making it attractive for the traveling pro's.

This must be streamed for free to entice growing support from all over. It offers people the chance to see talent they otherwise would never have had the chance to discover before. Try to get some trade industry involved in the deal as much as possible and are willing to contribute or advertise with.

Everybody wins here with the exception of the possibility of some pro's getting bruised egos from some of the local undiscovered talent that's in every town. It nearly eliminates the cost of travel for the local talent, as the tournament trail comes to them. In most cases the qualifying players would more than likely be beat out of the competition anyways, unless there is a truly strong local lurking waiting to get discovered.

Or, is this a really, really bad idea and I should go to bed......

Dopc.

Its a good idea.

I have spent years thinking about the same type of thing. Small field events offer so many more options for all involved. It doesnt take long to see how a 16 man structure can grow and be modified into so much more in just a few seasons if it starts to get legs.

JAM
09-14-2013, 05:21 AM
Does not matter, I guess.

3andstop
09-14-2013, 06:21 AM
Seems like a viable idea, any exposure helps some, but if the ultimate goal is to popularize pool on a large scale, then I truly believe THE WAY is to somehow start in the school system with 5th grade and up.

If that could be done somehow, the game would explode with popularity in no time as would sales of all paraphernalia. I'm talking months and the game would see a major boon.

That's the ticket, any other way and we'd probably only reach a few new people and a lot of pool "already" pool lovers.

edit**** And I just as strongly believe the game would have to be 8 ball, not the favorite amongst us hardcores ... but never-the-less the game most familiar to all.

macguy
09-14-2013, 06:45 AM
The more I think of the 16 man pro player invite only tour, the more possibilities I can see coming out of it. When the 16 man tour shows it will work for players and promoters both, many things can grow from it. You can add a few more players a little at a time until you have 32. With 16 players 2 8 player ring games a few times a year. Also you can split the 16 into 4 man teams a few times a year. You can also have 8 doubles teams a few times a year. Lastly you can draw two guys for TAR type match ups when ever the time and the players have a grudge between each other. There are other ways to use the 16 pro players I'm sure. Johnnyt
Sort of like a traveling show, same acts different towns. Carefully managed there would actually be some money in this. Done on a small scale the events can be held in pool rooms that have the ability to accommodate them. Unlike a carnival or circus that travels together, travel expenses would present the biggest problem. Lets be honest, pool, just as ESPN termed it, is really an exhibition sport. No one really cares who wins or loses they just want to see the game played. Same thing as a rodeo, it is just the same show put on in a different town.
To be honest, any four pro players could take an act on the road playing each other. It was done a 100 years ago. and could still work.

macguy
09-14-2013, 06:52 AM
Seems like a viable idea, any exposure helps some, but if the ultimate goal is to popularize pool on a large scale, then I truly believe THE WAY is to somehow start in the school system with 5th grade and up.

If that could be done somehow, the game would explode with popularity in no time as would sales of all paraphernalia. I'm talking months and the game would see a major boon.

That's the ticket, any other way and we'd probably only reach a few new people and a lot of pool "already" pool lovers.

edit**** And I just as strongly believe the game would have to be 8 ball, not the favorite amongst us hardcores ... but never-the-less the game most familiar to all.
I don't really think popularizing pool is the goal. Making a few dollars for some players is the goal and what ever positive benefits pool gains from it are just side effects. It can be combined with other activities as well. Have local celebs. come. Often the local weather person or news people are are some of the most well know locals. It has to be a happening event even beyond the pool. It also need a lot of well done advance work before they arrive.

Johnnyt
09-14-2013, 06:56 AM
Its a good idea.

I have spent years thinking about the same type of thing. Small field events offer so many more options for all involved. It doesnt take long to see how a 16 man structure can grow and be modified into so much more in just a few seasons if it starts to get legs.

You have a good ideas for sure. The reason I like 16 pro players invitation only is it would be so much easier to control, all matches should be worth watching if the invites are for the top 20 players, a small studio production with equipment for streaming and (gasp) TV production can be used with 2 tables (I think), the promoter can make all the rules and enforce them. Nice collared shirts with name or/and logo on them would be a nice touch. Standings and stats kept and posted just like other sports.

Like I've said before, I'm no promoter or TD, I just throw out ideas (a lot of them) hoping some of them can be used by people that know what their doing. Johnnyt

RonMason
09-14-2013, 07:07 AM
What's up Justin? Hope all is good my boy. Tony Robles uses that format on the Predator tour Open/Pro events. There are times that he opens it up to 32 players, but for the most part he limits it to 16. It seems to work really well and the event usually runs really smooth. Good luck with it Justin. I'm sure you will make whatever you set out to do work. Have a great weekend!

Ron Mason

Kinda like watching the same 40 NASCAR drivers race every weekend from February to November? Whole lot of people seem to dig that.

People need to get to know players in order to give a shit if they win or lose. Its hard to do that in 64-128 man fields. Once you had a 16 man structure in place you could do any thing with it. This week we play a one pocket event. Next week is ten ball. Whatever. If people will pay attention to whatever you are doing then it means there are options.

The days of big events are coming to end. No one makes any money at them. Players or promoters. And the last year has made some of the people who do them decide the juice just isnt worth the squeeze anymore. That means shit is going to change. I want to see it create the seed of something that can grow. Otherwise its all gonna be $2000 added regional events with a couple of invitationals and the odd week long tournament. No structure. No future. No growth.

I have been working on the 16 man idea for several years. It makes lots of sense. There are the same problems you always have with regard to money, logistics and schedule but with a small field they are much more manageable.. Honestly one of the biggest problems for me deciding how much time and effort I want to invest in it is the question of what happens if it actually got off the ground and it starts to work? According to history the players will then screw things up. I like to think that could be addressed before hand but honestly I don't know if it would be worth all the trouble.

If there is no structure then there is nothing. How do you get a self sustaining structure? Soon as that happens there will be a shot.

IMO of course.

Put_upor_shutup
09-14-2013, 10:01 AM
Kinda like watching the same 40 NASCAR drivers race every weekend from February to November? Whole lot of people seem to dig that.

People need to get to know players in order to give a shit if they win or lose. Its hard to do that in 64-128 man fields. Once you had a 16 man structure in place you could do any thing with it. This week we play a one pocket event. Next week is ten ball. Whatever. If people will pay attention to whatever you are doing then it means there are options.

The days of big events are coming to end. No one makes any money at them. Players or promoters. And the last year has made some of the people who do them decide the juice just isnt worth the squeeze anymore. That means shit is going to change. I want to see it create the seed of something that can grow. Otherwise its all gonna be $2000 added regional events with a couple of invitationals and the odd week long tournament. No structure. No future. No growth.

I have been working on the 16 man idea for several years. It makes lots of sense. There are the same problems you always have with regard to money, logistics and schedule but with a small field they are much more manageable.. Honestly one of the biggest problems for me deciding how much time and effort I want to invest in it is the question of what happens if it actually got off the ground and it starts to work? According to history the players will then screw things up. I like to think that could be addressed before hand but honestly I don't know if it would be worth all the trouble.

If there is no structure then there is nothing. How do you get a self sustaining structure? Soon as that happens there will be a shot.

IMO of course.

16 man 24 at most is the only way to go period..will make players hungry again also.Smaller fields equals bigger pay days..In order to make the cut u have to want it.Plus as u say its way easier to identify with 16 players..Pick ur favorite and hope he makes the cut..This is the only way to go..Make it happen and give me my position passing out flyers..

ENGLISH!
09-14-2013, 10:17 AM
Johnnyt,
I agree in that pool is a spectator sport. People want to see it. A small pro tour, charge admission to see it up close and personal. Now you have to have a place for it. Seating and vendors...now you have a Tradeshow. Now you have problems galore. You need a lot of stuff to do that, people to put up money etc etc.

I think Pool Rooms need to be constructed in order to provide the venue for such events, that would solve a whole lot of problems.

There are basketball gyms & small sports facilities all over the country. The table set up & take down would be the only issue.

Just a thought.

Best,
Rick

iusedtoberich
09-14-2013, 10:19 AM
I agree. This is my post cut and pasted from another one of Johnny's threads:) :

I think we as fans want to see the best of the best play. We don't care to see the local hero (unless he is local to us) play Corey or Archer or Busty.... We want to see Corey play Archer, and Archer play Busty, and every match in a tournament be of that caliber.

I say cut out the 64 and 128 man fields that are fluff. The current model is the fluff pays for the top guys that cash. But the fans don't care about the fluff, they only watch the big guys. Make the whole tournament ONLY the big guys. Make it limited to 16 players for now. If the whole sport grows, open it to 32 players. But today, I think it can only support 16 players.

A few entities are doing this now:

1. TAR with their one on one action matches of the big guys
2. Accu-Stats with their Make it Happen events of only the big guys
3. Diamond with their Big Foot events, that, via the $1000 entry fee, only the big guys enter
4. Griffin is hinting towards doing the same thing on his latest podcast, only having a specific small number of handpicked guys to be in his pro events.

Call this 16 player field the pro tour.

If it takes off, you can have qualifiers for it. Joe Tuckers ABC league can be the qualifier. The top finishers in his national championship can take future spots that open up in the filed of 16. Every year, the bottom quarter performers of the "pro tour" are replaced by the top performers on Tucker's ABC tour.

Or, have a system like Glen is talking about to determine who is in or out.


You can easily just vote in the top 16 in the first year or two, we all know who they are.

But the main point is, however you get the top 16 guys, is to make a product that is marketable to the fans, and the sponsors. The fans don't care about Joe Shmo. The fans want to see the top guys, and that's it. And if the fans show up, there is a tiny chance the sponsors will too, and then the whole thing grows.

This whole line of thinking requires breaking out of the current paradigm we are in, of large fields filled with fluff.

My railbird 3 cents

david(tx)
09-14-2013, 10:19 AM
The more I think of the 16 man pro player invite only tour, the more possibilities I can see coming out of it. When the 16 man tour shows it will work for players and promoters both, many things can grow from it. You can add a few more players a little at a time until you have 32. With 16 players 2 8 player ring games a few times a year. Also you can split the 16 into 4 man teams a few times a year. You can also have 8 doubles teams a few times a year. Lastly you can draw two guys for TAR type match ups when ever the time and the players have a grudge between each other. There are other ways to use the 16 pro players I'm sure. Johnnyt


Think streaming whole events may not be needed but i'd say 64 for the field , at the end of tour bottom 32 drop and hold a couple of large field qualifying tournaments to replace the 32 that dropped at beginning of new tour season . You'll need fewer tables and it could be played in small venues . You will end up with a lot of belly aching , charges of favoritism and competitors . Nice thought though JT .

krelldog
09-14-2013, 11:06 AM
Who would be the chosen 16?

Would they have to reside in the states to qualify?

Would there be a standby list?

Whats the game? I'm assuming call shot/10 ball?

How do you keep your exemption?

Assuming you have to be a resident of the US...here is my 16.

Shane/Archer/Dechaine/Morris/Shuff/Strickland/Thorsten/Mika/Appleton/Hatch
Stevie Moore/Putnam/Nevel/Cory/Daulton/Oscar

YubaCushion
09-14-2013, 11:13 AM
The more I think of the 16 man pro player invite only tour, the more possibilities I can see coming out of it. When the 16 man tour shows it will work for players and promoters both, many things can grow from it. You can add a few more players a little at a time until you have 32. With 16 players 2 8 player ring games a few times a year. Also you can split the 16 into 4 man teams a few times a year. You can also have 8 doubles teams a few times a year. Lastly you can draw two guys for TAR type match ups when ever the time and the players have a grudge between each other. There are other ways to use the 16 pro players I'm sure. Johnnyt

Who would play who in what game. Do you go Jeanette lee and Thorsten in 9 ball. Then do Shane and the Rocket for 10 ball, and those kind of match up's? Or just one game and all 16 in a bracket set up. Do you coordinate it with current tours since some players are already there or do you do it separate.

iusedtoberich
09-14-2013, 11:14 AM
That's as good a list as any.

krelldog
09-14-2013, 11:51 AM
Who would play who in what game. Do you go Jeanette lee and Thorsten in 9 ball. Then do Shane and the Rocket for 10 ball, and those kind of match up's? Or just one game and all 16 in a bracket set up. Do you coordinate it with current tours since some players are already there or do you do it separate.


I think the best format would be a typical double elimination bracket.

Week 1- alphabetical slotting. After week 1 statistically slot the bracket.

One of the biggest challenges would be getting the players to commit to the schedule. Logistics would be a challenge also. Travel is expensive. If the bottom feeders aren't making money there not going to be real motivated to fill the fields.

To really make this thing work I think everyone has got to get some form of compensation, but where would the money come from?

Example- 1st-10k 2nd-5k 3-4th- 3k
5-8th-2k 9-16th-1K
This totals 37K
37K x 16 week tour = 592 K

It sounds like a lot, and I know these numbers are very rough and on the low side...but this concept is very achievable in these times.

krelldog
09-14-2013, 11:56 AM
Also- One motivator for the bottom feeders would be retaining their exemption.

Example: The top 10-12 for the season retain their exemption. The bottom 4-6 have to qualify in some open event open to anyone. A Q-School for Pool..what a concept :)

krelldog
09-14-2013, 12:13 PM
If I'm going to dream...I might as well dream big.

My above rough estimate was 592K

At the completion of the 16 week tour...Each of the 16 based on their good behavior/and total participation would get a check for 10K.

This adds 160K..bring the rough total to roughly 750K

What the bonus would do is create a lot of motivation to stay exempt.

It would also from the Pool Q school side....create a lot of motivation to become exempt.

BTW- The Pool Q school entry would be 2K. If you get 50 guys taking a shot at 4 exemptions...that's an extra 100K to finance this tour. You could also generate additional revenue with streaming and other creative promotions. Hopefully Predator/OB/Tiger/Joss/McDermott/Viking/Jacoby/Lucasi/Pooldawg/Seyberts/Simonis/Aramith/Diamond/AZ Billiards would understand the importance of revitalizing American pool and contribute what they can.

With the right leadership (which is critical) this tour concept is extremely possible.

3andstop
09-14-2013, 12:57 PM
I don't really think popularizing pool is the goal. Making a few dollars for some players is the goal and what ever positive benefits pool gains from it are just side effects. It can be combined with other activities as well. Have local celebs. come. Often the local weather person or news people are are some of the most well know locals. It has to be a happening event even beyond the pool. It also need a lot of well done advance work before they arrive.

I understand, but the players can't make money until the industry makes money, and the industry can't make money unless there is a large enough consumer base to feed the industry, and I think it all has to start by cultivating the school kids.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea.

NYC cue dude
09-14-2013, 01:16 PM
I understand, but the players can't make money until the industry makes money, and the industry can't make money unless there is a large enough consumer base to feed the industry, and I think it all has to start by cultivating the school kids.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea.

And in most European countries. In china, pool is taught in school. We've already seen the results. They have cultivated many world class players and 1000's of top players. For every great American, there are dozens of good players there. Korea is also becoming a strong force. Pool is often televised there and for being a relatively small country has a large percentage of its population participating. But again, China's numbers dwarf American, European and Korean players, COMBINED.

In Germany, they have school age clubs that players become members to. It's a safe environment, free of the seedy side of pool. There, players are groomed through local competition and practice. Kids are coached by world class teachers. Those that excel, move up through the ranks with the support of the community. Germany has produced some fine players at only a fraction of the percentage of America's population.

In all these countries, kids have access to digital technology, video games and all the other sports. Yet they choose to play pool, as well. The parents support it because they know their kids are engaging in a healthy environment. That can't be said about what's available in the US.

The only way to grow the sport is from the bottom up. Younger kids must get involved or our sport will continue to die.

Johnnyt
09-14-2013, 02:24 PM
I understand, but the players can't make money until the industry makes money, and the industry can't make money unless there is a large enough consumer base to feed the industry, and I think it all has to start by cultivating the school kids.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea.

I think most of the industry has proven they are not interested in funding pro pool. That's why it's important to start getting sponsorship outside the billiard industry. Johnnny

Dopc
09-14-2013, 02:33 PM
Allow me to add my thoughts and ideas. Keeping the OPs original thought and adding a twist.

In addition to the 16 player invitational field, why not make each stop a 32 player tournament field. Where do the other 16 players come from you ask. Simple, in the weeks before the visit at that particular location, have a series of qualifier tournaments for the local talent to compete for positions to join the field of pros'. Taking the top 4 from 4 separate qualifying events held in the previous weeks leading up to the main tournament.

In my opinion, everybody wins here. The local talent gets the opportunity to rub shoulders and compete with the pro's. The room owner gets the added revenue generated from not just the one single main event, but also the previous weeks leading to that main event.The qualifier tournaments entry fees build up prize money for the main event making it attractive for the traveling pro's.

This must be streamed for free to entice growing support from all over. It offers people the chance to see talent they otherwise would never have had the chance to discover before. Try to get some trade industry involved in the deal as much as possible and are willing to contribute or advertise with.

Everybody wins here with the exception of the possibility of some pro's getting bruised egos from some of the local undiscovered talent that's in every town. It nearly eliminates the cost of travel for the local talent, as the tournament trail comes to them. In most cases the qualifying players would more than likely be beat out of the competition anyways, unless there is a truly strong local lurking waiting to get discovered.

Or, is this a really, really bad idea and I should go to bed......

Dopc.

Its a good idea.

I have spent years thinking about the same type of thing. Small field events offer so many more options for all involved. It doesnt take long to see how a 16 man structure can grow and be modified into so much more in just a few seasons if it starts to get legs.

Thanks JCIN for taking the time to read and comment on my post, I truly have respect for your thoughts and opinions, both from reading your posts here on AZB and watching the TAR podcasts ( I love the podcasts by the way. I hope the two of you can do them more frequently as the content and events from the scene come to light).

I must admit though, that sudden idea wasn't truly as spur of the moment as I had alluded to. It has been a dream scenario of mine to see come to reality for well over 25 years. Not because I feel I would have a shot at it (it's nice to have dreams & aspirations though), but also I feel it would light a motivational spark for the talented amateurs to want to improve to higher levels of play and get some exposure opportunity. Creating the "Everybody wins" wins scenario, from the local pool room, to the industry as a whole & finally for the entire sport. truth be told, I haven't given the logistics side of it any thought, that's a dream killer now isn't it.......

Dopc.. The eternal dreamer...

frankncali
09-14-2013, 02:53 PM
Kinda like watching the same 40 NASCAR drivers race every weekend from February to November? Whole lot of people seem to dig that.

People need to get to know players in order to give a shit if they win or lose. Its hard to do that in 64-128 man fields. Once you had a 16 man structure in place you could do any thing with it. This week we play a one pocket event. Next week is ten ball. Whatever. If people will pay attention to whatever you are doing then it means there are options.

The days of big events are coming to end. No one makes any money at them. Players or promoters. And the last year has made some of the people who do them decide the juice just isnt worth the squeeze anymore. That means shit is going to change. I want to see it create the seed of something that can grow. Otherwise its all gonna be $2000 added regional events with a couple of invitationals and the odd week long tournament. No structure. No future. No growth.

I have been working on the 16 man idea for several years. It makes lots of sense. There are the same problems you always have with regard to money, logistics and schedule but with a small field they are much more manageable.. Honestly one of the biggest problems for me deciding how much time and effort I want to invest in it is the question of what happens if it actually got off the ground and it starts to work? According to history the players will then screw things up. I like to think that could be addressed before hand but honestly I don't know if it would be worth all the trouble.

If there is no structure then there is nothing. How do you get a self sustaining structure? Soon as that happens there will be a shot.

IMO of course.


Interesting.. Didnt know if you would be for something like this or not..

I have kicked around lots lots of ideas but something like this ends up in my mind all the time.

You could seed the top 4 guys and actually have some play ins.. Maybe local qualifiers or a series of set qualifiers around the region or nation.

I like the team aspect like BB has and even something like that would work. or work a few times a year.
One of the quickest ways to build fans is to do it regionally. People like rooting for people they know or are from their area.
Kind of like guys following players from college to pro sports.

To get 16 -24 Pro level players interested what do you think the events would have to be worth?
Do you think that it would be best to have players in one location or move each tourney?

StraightPoolIU
09-14-2013, 03:23 PM
This is one of the better threads regarding ideas for pro pool in recent memory. Lots of good ideas in this thread. Like a lot of you I've been kicking around similar ideas in my head, and I without a doubt think smaller field events are the way to go for most of the reasons mentioned above. However, there's another advantage to small field events that I didn't see mentioned. It would be WAAAAY better from a spectator's perspective. For example, I freakin love going to Derby every year, but to be honest to watch matches it's kind of a clusterf**k. It requires no small amount of effort to figure out where and when you're favorite player is playing, and when you do find out there are so many other tables and people in the way you may not get a good view. The Bigfoot Events are the exception because of the smaller field. (Nearly) All of the players are top notch. There's only 4 tables with seating (although it could be better with more room) so you know where they'll be. The bracket is small and posted so it's easy to figure out and follow and know the match times.

poolguy4u
09-14-2013, 05:05 PM
I don't mean to be negative...but pool players don't like watching. Pool players want to play.

Pool players like to see friends play if they can't play themselves.

Now you can take 8 or 16 pro players and let them give a handicap to the local favorites or hot shots.

This is about the only way for local players to be interested and pay an admission fee.

If a pool player isn't playing, they want to be gambling. Guess it would have to be run like horse races and be able to bet on a player.:thumbup:

JCIN
09-15-2013, 12:53 AM
To get 16 -24 Pro level players interested what do you think the events would have to be worth?
Do you think that it would be best to have players in one location or move each tourney?

I keep coming back to a 16 man field playing a 10-12 stop tour with a points fund and pay outs for each event. The first season you would just pick 14 players who would support the tour with a good attitude. Each stop would have a qualifier for two spots. The money from that qualifier goes into the pot for that event.

At the end of the season top ten stay and four players would be cut. There would be a qualifier event/series/whatever to bring up four players for the next season.

Each event would have $1000 entry fee all going into the events prize fund. Ten percent of each events prize fund go to the year end points fund. There would be a code of conduct and tour rules enforced by points deductions/suspensions. To start with the events would be held in pool rooms or in conjunction with large amateur events. The site would pay a fee to hold the event. In return tour players would be available to help promote as well as play a pro-am prior to the event that the site could make money with. The money paid by the site would go into the prize fund/points fund.

Each event would be streamed. The money from this would go to TAR (since this is my plan/organization/pipe dream). This would pay for the running and organization of the events. Rights to the video would also go to TAR. Initially the streams would be PPV. Sponsor money for the tour stream would be split between the tour and TAR.

You could do the whole tour out of one truck. The events would be single elimination long races. Each match would be streamed. You roll into a town on Wednesday to set up. Thursday is the Pro-Am. Play the event Friday, Saturday and Sunday. One event every two or three weeks depending on scheduling around other events.

Each player could have one primary sponsor. That primary sponsor would get placement in the arena and on promotional materials. All this money stays with the individual player. This creates value for the player as there are only 16 available spots. Ideally it gets to the point where sponsors pay the players entry fees for this. Basically a primary sponsor could put a player in for an entire season for $10-$12K. Or the price of three or four custom cues. I think its possible. Players could have two additional sponsors on their shirts as well. Limiting the number of potential spots means they have more value.

Money break down for an event with no sponsorship at all:

$1000 entry x 16: $16,000
$5000 site fee: $5,000
$1,000 from qualifiers ($300 entry x 10 players. $2K goes to player entry and the extra $1000 is added to prize fund)

$22,000 total.
- $2000 for year end prize fund.

You have 16 guys playing for $20,000 with zero sponsors. My thinking is to pay out top 8.

1st: $6000
2nd: $4000
3rd-4th: $2000
5th-8th: $1500

Basically you win one match you make $500.

Ten of these events leaves a $20K prize fund. Pay out top four in points.

1st: $10,000
2nd: $5,000
3rd: $3,000
4th: $2,000

This would be a $200,000 tour with $20K prize fund. $50K comes from site fees. The organization and infrastructure is paid for by the streaming. This is with zero outside sponsorship. I really believe if this was rolled out and proven that it was happening sponsors would jump on board.

The spectator gate is also not included in the money. My gut tells me the right deal is to split it between the tour and site. This would allow the site a way to get some money back in addition to selling food/drinks and the pro am. Sites for the first season would get first right of refusal for all future events in that geographical area.

There are a million more details. But this is what I think could work. If CSI, Diamond and some others got behind it I believe it would be possible. There is one big issue though. No one will get rich at this. Or even make much money in the beginning. It would be a whole lot of work and there is a good chance if you did everything right it would still fail. It is the one thing I have been able to come up with over the years that could create a viable and sustainable pro tour in the US.

There are lots of holes still and this is only a thumbnail sketch. But I do think something is possible.

CJ Wiley
09-15-2013, 01:09 AM
The more I think of the 16 man pro player invite only tour, the more possibilities I can see coming out of it. When the 16 man tour shows it will work for players and promoters both, many things can grow from it. You can add a few more players a little at a time until you have 32. With 16 players 2 8 player ring games a few times a year. Also you can split the 16 into 4 man teams a few times a year. You can also have 8 doubles teams a few times a year. Lastly you can draw two guys for TAR type match ups when ever the time and the players have a grudge between each other. There are other ways to use the 16 pro players I'm sure. Johnnyt

I believe at Tunica I said there was 16 fans in the audience and 400 players instead of 400 fans and 16 spectators.

Anyway, I'll be really glad if the necessary changes are made and this current structure is refined. Personally I'd only use 8 players, but that would take some explaining. ;) If there's no TV then this is another silly structure that won't do what we really need - to draw in the general public to recognize pocket billiards as a viable entertainment option for them.

JCIN
09-15-2013, 01:17 AM
I believe at Tunica I said there was 16 fans in the audience and 400 players instead of 400 fans and 16 spectators.

Anyway, I'll be really glad if the necessary changes are made and this current structure is refined. Personally I'd only use 8 players, but that would take some explaining. ;) If there's no TV then this is another silly structure that won't do what we really need - to draw in the general public to recognize pocket billiards as a viable entertainment option for them.

Pool is not a viable entertainment media for the public in this country.

Never has been. Never will be.

The fact that it was on ESPN twenty years ago means nothing. The powers that be at that time had a chance and they screwed up it as bad as possible.

What is possible is something small that can be built on the people who already play the game.

My guess is that will never happen either because history has shown that players much prefer to be lied to and promised pie in the sky money than be told the truth and work to build to something.

Johnnyt
09-15-2013, 01:19 AM
When you say tour truck, do you mean to do the PPV out of and that means it doesn't matter what the poolroom has for cable? I hope enough of the industry and fans get behind this with a good send off. I know the PPV is needed for this, but the one thing I worry about is can you get enough PPV viewers to buy the feed every 2 or 3 weeks? I would think about having a package deal for the 12 -16 events a year. Johnnyt

JCIN
09-15-2013, 01:26 AM
When you say tour truck, do you mean to do the PPV out of and that means it doesn't matter what the poolroom has for cable? I hope enough of the industry and fans get behind this with a good send off. I know the PPV is needed for this, but the one thing I worry about is can you get enough PPV viewers to buy the feed every 2 or 3 weeks? I would think about having a package deal for the 12 -16 events a year. Johnnyt

No the site would have to have the the internet connection.

Its all a rough idea.

Do I think it could work if everything went right? Possibly.

The reason I haven't pursued it is that I know exactly what most players would say: "Thats no money"

So I just do what I can with TAR matches and the players keep running on the hamster wheel of independent events with no structure or future.

Johnnyt
09-15-2013, 02:23 AM
I've been playing around with models of this 16 man pro tour off and on for months...even though I have no skin in it. When I see your rough draft of it and look at the ones I came up with I can now see how it's almost impossible to get everything right. Every time I fix one part of it 2 more problems come up.

The cost of travel for one thing sticks out when you use poolrooms because the U.S is so vast. Doing it in one studio or poolroom has the drawback of the players have to move near it. If most of the players got a sponsor that would pay for travel and maybe entry fees, then it could work either way. If TAR could get enough sponsors to let the cost of PPV drop low enough for the viewer...then I believe that could work too. If the players get the sponsors and you don't over lap with other big tournaments the pros should be more than happy with the purse in your rough draft. If all the above could come together I believe it would work out fine for everyone. But the stars must align. Johnnyt

JCIN
09-15-2013, 05:09 AM
I've been playing around with models of this 16 man pro tour off and on for months...even though I have no skin in it. When I see your rough draft of it and look at the ones I came up with I can now see how it's almost impossible to get everything right. Every time I fix one part of it 2 more problems come up.

The cost of travel for one thing sticks out when you use poolrooms because the U.S is so vast. Doing it in one studio or poolroom has the drawback of the players have to move near it. If most of the players got a sponsor that would pay for travel and maybe entry fees, then it could work either way. If TAR could get enough sponsors to let the cost of PPV drop low enough for the viewer...then I believe that could work too. If the players get the sponsors and you don't over lap with other big tournaments the pros should be more than happy with the purse in your rough draft. If all the above could come together I believe it would work out fine for everyone. But the stars must align. Johnnyt

Without a bunch of money invested up front it would take a lot of things to fall right. With a couple hundred grand to start with it would be easy to put together. What Bonus Ball or Galveston shot up in the air could of done it easily. Which is why it makes me ill every time I see the next guy step up and just set fire to the money that could actually create something that could last and grow.

But as I have said...you could do everything right and still fail.

The plan is nothing new. It takes things from rodeo, nascar, skateboarding and several other things that started very small and grew into functioning organizations/sports

The fact that it seems a huge hurdle for fourteen players to find $10K to play a 100% entry added tour in the US tells you exactly where the industry as a whole is.

JB Cases
09-15-2013, 05:16 AM
Allow me to add my thoughts and ideas. Keeping the OPs original thought and adding a twist.

In addition to the 16 player invitational field, why not make each stop a 32 player tournament field. Where do the other 16 players come from you ask. Simple, in the weeks before the visit at that particular location, have a series of qualifier tournaments for the local talent to compete for positions to join the field of pros'. Taking the top 4 from 4 separate qualifying events held in the previous weeks leading up to the main tournament.

In my opinion, everybody wins here. The local talent gets the opportunity to rub shoulders and compete with the pro's. The room owner gets the added revenue generated from not just the one single main event, but also the previous weeks leading to that main event.The qualifier tournaments entry fees build up prize money for the main event making it attractive for the traveling pro's.

This must be streamed for free to entice growing support from all over. It offers people the chance to see talent they otherwise would never have had the chance to discover before. Try to get some trade industry involved in the deal as much as possible and are willing to contribute or advertise with.

Everybody wins here with the exception of the possibility of some pro's getting bruised egos from some of the local undiscovered talent that's in every town. It nearly eliminates the cost of travel for the local talent, as the tournament trail comes to them. In most cases the qualifying players would more than likely be beat out of the competition anyways, unless there is a truly strong local lurking waiting to get discovered.

Or, is this a really, really bad idea and I should go to bed......

Dopc.

I believe the EuroTour operates pretty much as you described.

JCIN
09-15-2013, 05:27 AM
I believe the EuroTour operates pretty much as you described.

If you tried to do the Euro Tour here players would laugh at you.

Similar to what they would do if pitched my plan.

Johnnyt
09-15-2013, 07:02 AM
When it comes down to finding 16 or more top American players, I only find about 6-8 that fit that bill. There are a few from the UK, Germany, and the PI that are here for long periods of time, but you never know when they will go back home. I think you said single elm long races, if so a mix of top tier and 2nd tier won't work as the 2nd tier won't have much of a chance to cash. Johnnyt

JCIN
09-15-2013, 07:57 AM
When it comes down to finding 16 or more top American players, I only find about 6-8 that fit that bill. There are a few from the UK, Germany, and the PI that are here for long periods of time, but you never know when they will go back home. I think you said single elm long races, if so a mix of top tier and 2nd tier won't work as the 2nd tier won't have much of a chance to cash. Johnnyt

It doesnt matter.

Its all just noise anyway.

Even if someone did put it together there is no way it could survive the shear negative energy of the people in and around the game. Between the long history of bullshit promoters and never ending short sightedness of the players to the almost religious belief of the target fan that everything should be free.....all this talk of what would or wouldnt work is simply a mouse fart in a windstorm.

The end of the day its simple. In the US not enough people want to watch pool. The ones that do are (demographic generalization to follow) old, dont spend much money and there are not enough of them to interest any advertisers even within the industry.

So you get what we have now. I expect thats all that will ever be unless someone with both resources and brains comes into the game. So far its been either or and never both.

iusedtoberich
09-15-2013, 09:31 AM
In this fantasy land :) ....

I'd go with 6 stops per year of the 16 player fields. I think 12 is too much.

Then, when it took off, and other promoters started paying attention, I'd add one other big event and have it as-is, unlimited fields. This would be the US Open 9 ball.

So what that gets you, is 6 tight events of only top pros, and 1 more of the existing events. Seed the 16 guys in the existing event, and everyone and anyone else can play in this events just for the entry fee. Its would break up the 6 other events with a "special" event that is open to the public, to see if any of the public can take down the 16 pros.

alstl
09-15-2013, 09:47 AM
Who does the invites, who runs the tour and what is his/her connection to the players involved?

iusedtoberich
09-15-2013, 10:27 AM
Who does the invites, who runs the tour and what is his/her connection to the players involved?

As long as its not Charlie Williams it's a good start:)

JAM
09-15-2013, 10:30 AM
Pool could be put on the map with a reality show similar to "The Contenders" was for boxing.

It would need an already-existing celebrity to get off the ground, however. For "The Contenders," it was Sylvester Stallone and Sugar Ray Leonard.

Joe Rogan, of course, would be *the* perfect person to host a reality pool show with 16 players because he actually does understand and know the game well.

Jaden
09-15-2013, 11:27 AM
The first is the idea of invitational... There's too much favoritism in this sport to have an invitational tour.

A skill qualifier like Glen is talking about makes the most sense, then you're sure you have the best qualified playing as opposed to the promoter's best friends playing. Then you have a means of knowing where you stand and what you would have to do to get where you need to be as well.

Skill at play is not skill at competition, but at least people would have the means to get the experience at competition that they might otherwise not be able to get the chance to do.

The other problem is prohibitive entry fees. Top players have trouble coming up with 250-500, but they're going to be able to come up with 12 $1000 entries???

I just don't think that's feasible.

If the idea is to get the best players in, unfortunately, it's going to take someone who's willing to lose some money before they can make some money, and they have to be extremely intelligent from a marketing perspective to have any chance.

Anything is marketable with the right marketing and enough time and money.

You don't provide what people want, you convince them that what they want is what you're providing. That's what good marketing is all about.

Golf is one of the most boring sports to watch, but it's watched by millions of people week in, week out.

It's a combination of marketing and gradual build up and general attitude that led to golf's success. Business meetings for high level CEOs etc... were what golf was shown as being.

Pool has been shown as low life's taking advantage of gullible people. That has to change first.

When pool was at it's most popular, it was looked at much the same as golf is today, a respectable gentleman's game.

If it has any hope that will have to be what it gets back to primarily.

Jaden

alstl
09-15-2013, 01:53 PM
The first is the idea of invitational... There's too much favoritism in this sport to have an invitational tour.

A skill qualifier like Glen is talking about makes the most sense, then you're sure you have the best qualified playing as opposed to the promoter's best friends playing. Then you have a means of knowing where you stand and what you would have to do to get where you need to be as well.

Skill at play is not skill at competition, but at least people would have the means to get the experience at competition that they might otherwise not be able to get the chance to do.

The other problem is prohibitive entry fees. Top players have trouble coming up with 250-500, but they're going to be able to come up with 12 $1000 entries???

I just don't think that's feasible.

If the idea is to get the best players in, unfortunately, it's going to take someone who's willing to lose some money before they can make some money, and they have to be extremely intelligent from a marketing perspective to have any chance.

Anything is marketable with the right marketing and enough time and money.

You don't provide what people want, you convince them that what they want is what you're providing. That's what good marketing is all about.

Golf is one of the most boring sports to watch, but it's watched by millions of people week in, week out.

It's a combination of marketing and gradual build up and general attitude that led to golf's success. Business meetings for high level CEOs etc... were what golf was shown as being.

Pool has been shown as low life's taking advantage of gullible people. That has to change first.

When pool was at it's most popular, it was looked at much the same as golf is today, a respectable gentleman's game.

If it has any hope that will have to be what it gets back to primarily.

Jaden

I've seen savers happen between high profile pro players in the finals of a tournament. If that happened in golf those players would be banned for life.

Johnnyt
09-15-2013, 02:22 PM
That's it. I'm tired of trying to save the pros. I'm going to start on a format that will bring Bumper Pool back. Johnnyt

alstl
09-15-2013, 06:23 PM
That's it. I'm tired of trying to save the pros. I'm going to start on a format that will bring Bumper Pool back. Johnnyt

Are aiming systems allowed in bumper pool?

Johnnyt
09-15-2013, 10:12 PM
Are aiming systems allowed in bumper pool?

No, but you better read "Baby Banks" by Freddy the Beard. :p. Johnnyt

frankncali
09-15-2013, 11:09 PM
I've seen savers happen between high profile pro players in the finals of a tournament. If that happened in golf those players would be banned for life.

I have been told by a Pro golfer that savers and deals occur on tour. I also remember Pro Golfers cutting up the skins game during the silly season each year. They took some heat for it but it still happened.

CJ Wiley
09-16-2013, 01:21 AM
Pool is not a viable entertainment media for the public in this country.

Never has been. Never will be.

The fact that it was on ESPN twenty years ago means nothing. The powers that be at that time had a chance and they screwed up it as bad as possible.

What is possible is something small that can be built on the people who already play the game.

My guess is that will never happen either because history has shown that players much prefer to be lied to and promised pie in the sky money than be told the truth and work to build to something.

Pool has certainly been a top entertainment option for people, my UpScale Billiard Concept was #1 in the state of Texas in sales for 2 solid years (doing over 6 Million per year). CJ's Billiard Palace hosted TV Events that were broadcast 18 times with players like Earl Strickland, Efren Reyes, Johnny Archer, Paul Potier, Andam, Luat, Kim Davenport, Jimmy Rempe, etc.

There were publically traded billiard concepts like Fox and Hound, Jillians, and Cool River popping up all over the country as well. Fox and Hound raised over 80 Million for their publicly traded offering, that's pretty good example of public recognition.

Cool River here in Texas has a Billiard Theme and was started by people that personally like and play the game. The first two years in operation this concept did over 12 Million in total food/liquor/gaming sales and is still in operation here in Las Colinas.

Our team's total historic sales is over 53 Million Dollars and we're aggressively looking at locations in Ft. Worth's most affluent area.....as a matter of fact we were there today.

Pocket Billiards has been under promoted the past few years, however, that time is fixing to change. I was running 4 commercials for my pool room a night for many years on ESPN and will pick that up right away prior to our Grand Opening.

frankncali
09-16-2013, 01:32 AM
Pool has certainly been a top entertainment option for people, my UpScale Billiard Concept was #1 in the state of Texas in sales for 2 solid years (doing over 6 Million per year). CJ's Billiard Palace hosted TV Events that were broadcast 18 times with players like Earl Strickland, Efren Reyes, Johnny Archer, Paul Potier, Andam, Luat, Kim Davenport, Jimmy Rempe, etc.

There were publically traded billiard concepts like Fox and Hound, Jillians, and Cool River popping up all over the country as well. Fox and Hound raised over 80 Million for their publicly traded offering, that's pretty good example of public recognition.

Cool River here in Texas has a Billiard Theme and was started by people that personally like and play the game. The first two years in operation this concept did over 12 Million in total food/liquor/gaming sales and is still in operation here in Las Colinas.

Our team's total historic sales is over 53 Million Dollars and we're aggressively looking at locations in Ft. Worth's most affluent area.....as a matter of fact we were there today.

Pocket Billiards has been under promoted the past few years, however, that time is fixing to change. I was running 4 commercials for my pool room a night for many years on ESPN and will pick that up right away prior to our Grand Opening.

CJ I was around during the time frame you are mentioning and nothing you are saying is wrong but that was the height of the modern pool boom. It was riding the wave of a great movie that swept the nation.
There were tours all over and the McDermott tour was doing very well.
Waiting list at pool rooms and all night action or simple play play was going on.

I don't see that now and its not a viable entertainment product at the moment. Something needs to give it a push and someone needs to get the players out of the way of its success.

Hopefully some of the games top minds and forward thinkers(dreamers) will be able to come up with something. I think you are included in the group.

CJ Wiley
09-16-2013, 01:40 AM
CJ I was around during the time frame you are mentioning and nothing you are saying is wrong but that was the height of the modern pool boom. It was riding the wave of a great movie that swept the nation.
There were tours all over and the McDermott tour was doing very well.
Waiting list at pool rooms and all night action or simple play play was going on.

I don't see that now and its not a viable entertainment product at the moment. Something needs to give it a push and someone needs to get the players out of the way of its success.

Hopefully some of the games top minds and forward thinkers(dreamers) will be able to come up with something. I think you are included in the group.

:Yes, it's obvious that no one in the pool room business is advertising on ESPN....and whether someone wants to acknowledge it or not "If you're not a sport or game on ESPN consistently you're not in the public's mind as a sport or game!" We advertise on ESPN EVERY night for many years and did 4 commercials to make sure the public was aware of our business.

We should, as an industry at least be advertising on ESPN or Fox Sports to remind the public that pool's an option for the entertainment dollar. Discontinuing advertising to save money is like unplugging a clock to save time.....advertising is as essential as electricity to keep a business or in the case a sport/game thriving.

Look in the newspapers, magazines, TV, Billboards, etc. and tell me how much Pocket Billiard advertising you see IN ANY CITY IN THE UNITED STATES.....how much more obvious can "dropping the advertising ball" be??? 'The Game is the Teacher'

BeiberLvr
09-16-2013, 03:06 AM
:Yes, it's obvious that no one in the pool room business is advertising on ESPN....and whether someone wants to acknowledge it or not "If you're not a sport or game on ESPN consistently you're not in the public's mind as a sport or game!" We advertise on ESPN EVERY night for many years and did 4 commercials to make sure the public was aware of our business.

We should, as an industry at least be advertising on ESPN or Fox Sports to remind the public that pool's an option for the entertainment dollar. Discontinuing advertising to save money is like unplugging a clock to save time.....advertising is as essential as electricity to keep a business or in the case a sport/game thriving.

Look in the newspapers, magazines, TV, Billboards, etc. and tell me how much Pocket Billiard advertising you see IN ANY CITY IN THE UNITED STATES.....how much more obvious can "dropping the advertising ball" be??? 'The Game is the Teacher'

I've also wondered if any streaming companies have contacted ESPN about airing tournaments on ESPN3. If accu-stats was streaming a 5 day tournament, and charging $15 a day/person. They could offer to stream it on ESPN3, and ESPN could receive a cut. There's plenty of people that watch streaming sports on ESPN3 that would otherwise not know about the tournament.

gxman
09-16-2013, 03:23 AM
The pool industry couldn't afford any advertisement of any form on ESPN.

If a TAR match between Efren and SVB or even the free matches can only garner up 1-2K viewers at the absolute best, I seriously do not think pool stands a shot at national TV.

Reality is people just arent interested in pool anymore.

Joe T
09-16-2013, 06:23 AM
That's it. I'm tired of trying to save the pros. I'm going to start on a format that will bring Bumper Pool back. Johnnyt

Beat ya to it Johnny http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akWhrAWgEaM

Johnnyt
09-16-2013, 08:14 AM
Beat ya to it Johnny http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akWhrAWgEaM

Texas Bump. Sounds like some kind of country line dance. Johnnyt

cueman
09-16-2013, 09:17 AM
I could see it working out. But I think you need to keep the games something the public is familiar with. I think Mike Janis has a pretty good format. He makes the winner of the lag decide if he wants to break first or pick the starting game. Once that is decided you start out playing 8-ball or 9-ball. Then after so many games they switch to the other game for the rest of the match.

I would modify it to a race to 5 in the first game and finish to 9 with the second choice. I think he plays like 8 games of 9 ball first if you picked 9 ball and 6 if you choose 8 ball. So you could be on the hill before the switch, if you chose 9 ball and won every game. I have only played one of those tournaments and thought it was a good format. I think switching at 5 would give close to equal time to both games. Or in a race to 11 switch at 6.

But what would you call it? It is not an all around as it does not include one pocket or straight pool.

With the right name and promotion I think it would be a good format to take to the TV audience. I also like the local qualifiers to bump it to 32 players. Or local qualifiers to bump it to 64 with 32 touring pros. Then only film and broadcast the final 16 players. If they seed the pros every local would play a pro off the bat. Make it single elimination like tennis.