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Island Drive
09-15-2013, 09:50 AM
As the years pass, it seems the players that just play/workout/travel and compete , are becoming more prevalent than those that gamble to support themselves, especially in the later rounds. I could be wrong, but it's starting to feel that way. Thorston H. is a perfect example, easily comparable to a many PGA pros. Souquet also comes to mind, I'm sure there are others from over the pond.

ENGLISH!
09-15-2013, 09:56 AM
IMO that is what the game needs. To change the publics image from the hustler gambling image to that of a professional sport ...like golf & tennis.

I know that that can only exists for the top few at this time.

But...that should be the goal of every Pro.

Unfortunately many of them either do not understand that, or...
they have a gambling affliction.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick

PS Golf pros do gamble for 'small' money during practice rounds just to keep things 'interesting'.

1on1pooltournys
09-15-2013, 10:04 AM
The elite are both gamblers and "players." Gambling is everywhere and will always be. With some class and etiquette it's the perfect "draw" to engage the public. I'll take a top player/gambler like Alex or SVB over any "player" when the pressure is on. I believe both will tell you that their seasoned gambling career played a key role in their success.

BeiberLvr
09-15-2013, 10:17 AM
The elite are both gamblers and "players." Gambling is everywhere and will always be. With some class and etiquette it's the perfect "draw" to engage the public. I'll take a top player/gambler like Alex or SVB over any "player" when the pressure is on. I believe both will tell you that their seasoned gambling career played a key role in their success.

Gambling can help with learning to deal with pressure, but it's definitely not a necessity.

bdorman
09-15-2013, 10:17 AM
The elite are both gamblers and "players." Gambling is everywhere and will always be. With some class and etiquette it's the perfect "draw" to engage the public. I'll take a top player/gambler like Alex or SVB over any "player" when the pressure is on. I believe both will tell you that their seasoned gambling career played a key role in their success.

Agreed. It can be $5 or $5000; a little skin in the game sharpens the focus.

The road player/gambler is becoming extinct because the game isn't attracting the number of players it used to. Heck, in some cities where would you play? 60+% of the halls are closed due to lack of players.

Island Drive
09-15-2013, 11:03 AM
The elite are both gamblers and "players." Gambling is everywhere and will always be. With some class and etiquette it's the perfect "draw" to engage the public. I'll take a top player/gambler like Alex or SVB over any "player" when the pressure is on. I believe both will tell you that their seasoned gambling career played a key role in their success.

Very true, but in pure match play the animal is different than a gambler in the same situation. Not ALWAYS but I think they have and advantage because of how they process & manage the situation. Working out Cheap is waaaay different than high $take$ gambling. Many other issues come into play effecting the outcome. Hohmann is a fresh breath of air as is Ralph S.

Lonestar_jim
09-15-2013, 11:11 AM
Agreed. It can be $5 or $5000; a little skin in the game sharpens the focus.

The road player/gambler is becoming extinct because the game isn't attracting the number of players it used to. Heck, in some cities where would you play? 60+% of the halls are closed due to lack of players.

18K was on the line in Hohmann's last match. Probably this fact will put a very similar pressure to focus on a player. For me, I'll never compete like the pro's, so to add a litlle pressure we can put some money on it.

MitchAlsup
09-15-2013, 11:56 AM
IMO that is what the game needs. To change the publics image from the hustler gambling image to that of a professional sport ...like golf & tennis.

I agree with this. For pool to be viewed as a "real" sport, it has to be played like a real sport--for the sake of the game.

Ralph Kramden
09-15-2013, 12:46 PM
I agree with this. For pool to be viewed as a "real" sport, it has to be played like a real sport--for the sake of the game.

I don't think any gambling should be allowed for pool to be viewed as a "real" sport either.
Gambling can only be allowed in football, baseball, hockey, boxing, tennis, golf, & racing.

MahnaMahna
09-15-2013, 12:56 PM
I don't think any gambling should be allowed for pool to be viewed as a "real" sport either.
Gambling can only be allowed in football, baseball, hockey, boxing, tennis, golf, & racing.

Gambling is a good thing, the players who compete in the sports that are being gambled on is a bad thing in more ways than one.



Not that complicated guys.

joelpope
09-15-2013, 03:34 PM
IMO that is what the game needs. To change the publics image from the hustler gambling image to that of a professional sport ...like golf & tennis.

I know that that can only exists for the top few at this time.

But...that should be the goal of every Pro.

Unfortunately many of them either do not understand that, or...
they have a gambling affliction.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick

PS Golf pros do gamble for 'small' money during practice rounds just to keep things 'interesting'.
Phil M has been know to go off for five figures... That will keep it interesting for sure

joelpope
09-15-2013, 03:35 PM
I don't think any gambling should be allowed for pool to be viewed as a "real" sport either.
Gambling can only be allowed in football, baseball, hockey, boxing, tennis, golf, & racing.
Tongue firmly in cheek

Good one

joelpope
09-15-2013, 03:42 PM
What is the difference when you get right down to it?

In Golf, the stake horses (met life, Buick, Home Depot, or any of the other sponsors) put up their cash and a bunch of guys come in on their own dime or on a sponsor's dime and compete to see who goes home with the cheese and who just goes home

In pool, a couple of rollers put up their cash and two guys play heads up and one goes home with the cheese and the other just goes home.

All Pros play for money... That's what Pro means

Being a pro means taking the heat for playing for your next meal or a roof over your head. Granted, the golfers eat better and have a lot nicer roofs

johnnyutah
09-15-2013, 03:43 PM
You may be over looking that they have to make a living. Life isn't free. Same way the old time golfers did before the pro tour paid enough for them to live, support a family, etc.

ND Fan
09-15-2013, 04:22 PM
I think to be completely honest no one gambles to "make it interesting" or to have "some skin in the game" or whatever bullshit anyone wants to call it. People gamble for money, If money is not the motivator then you're probably not much of a gambler. I gamble often at pool, cards and golf. I generally win more than I lose. Do I need it to pay my mortgage, nope, but I get jazzed to win a few bucks. hell I won $70 and lunch today playing golf. It was an honest bet and I played well but I am not going to fool anyone to think that it wasn't about the money. I am not playing anyone for any great amount. That's not why I do it. In fact I just couldn't live with myself winning more than someone could afford to lose, I am a gambler not a hustler, I think there is a big difference. A hustler is basically stealing and never plays a game in which he would likely lose. A gambler loves the action, may hate to lose but knows it's possible. Pool gets it's bad rep from the hustler, not the gambler.

CreeDo
09-16-2013, 12:46 PM
I think to be completely honest no one gambles to "make it interesting" or to have "some skin in the game" or whatever bullshit anyone wants to call it. People gamble for money, If money is not the motivator then you're probably not much of a gambler. I gamble often at pool, cards and golf. I generally win more than I lose. Do I need it to pay my mortgage, nope, but I get jazzed to win a few bucks. hell I won $70 and lunch today playing golf. It was an honest bet and I played well but I am not going to fool anyone to think that it wasn't about the money. I am not playing anyone for any great amount. That's not why I do it.

Your post is a little confusing. Not calling you out specifically cuz I've seen similar things said,
many times from many people.

If it's "not any great amount" and you don't bet enough to make anyone hurt,
then why were you jazzed to win $70? You don't strike me as a guy for who gets a ton of joy
from seventy bucks. If that much disappeared from your bank account, would anything really change
in your life? Would you have to cut back on something, or sell something, or skip something?

I think if the amount is "Not any great amount" then it's fair to say it really ISN'T about the money.

And plenty of people do bet just to make interesting. My buddy and I made worthless $1 and $5 side bets
on the maryland straight pool for example, silly stuff like "I bet $1 toasty is out in under 3 innings".
That absolutely is just for fun and not about the money. Or it's a weird form of competition, instead of
using beads or a scoresheet, you use dollar bills to keep score.

macguy
09-16-2013, 01:00 PM
As the years pass, it seems the players that just play/workout/travel and compete , are becoming more prevalent than those that gamble to support themselves, especially in the later rounds. I could be wrong, but it's starting to feel that way. Thorston H. is a perfect example, easily comparable to a many PGA pros. Souquet also comes to mind, I'm sure there are others from over the pond.
" than those that gamble to support themselves,"

Look at your quote. How is it possible for one to "Gamble", and support ones self? Gambling indicates an uncertain outcome. Hustling of course pretty much always guarantees a positive outcome. It is not really possible for a pro to Hustle especially in this day and age with the internet.

Now pros can match up with outside money being bet and they have a guarantee with the winner getting the lions share. In years past pros did gamble but it was hardly an source of income. They had money one day and broke the next. Tough to pay the bills under those circumstances. No one can really gamble and make a living, that is why they call it gambling.

Ky Boy
09-16-2013, 01:12 PM
Just an observation here...

I have heard many times the only way pool will come out of the gutter and change it's image is to stop gambling. I don't know if it's the answer or not either way. However, as a fan of this sport I am admittedly very guilty of preferring to watch 2 top players play a gambling match than a tourney race to whatever....

And I'm pretty sure I am not the only one...

So, as a fan, if there are 2 live streams going on; 1 with 2 top players playing a tourney and another with 2 top players gambling/playing for a considerable sum which one do you watch?

Does the amount of money on the line matter? Are you more inclined to watch a 10k gambling match over a 25k tourney match?

To play devils advocate here, are pros the problem for gambling or the spectators the problem for watching?



Gary

1on1pooltournys
09-16-2013, 02:48 PM
Very true, but in pure match play the animal is different than a gambler in the same situation. Not ALWAYS but I think they have and advantage because of how they process & manage the situation. Working out Cheap is waaaay different than high $take$ gambling. Many other issues come into play effecting the outcome. Hohmann is a fresh breath of air as is Ralph S.

Like I said I'll take SVB and Alex over those two in any pressure situation time and time again. This doesn't mean they (Ralph especially) don't handle pressure, because of course their tournament record speaks for itself. Let us not forget what it takes to win a tournament. Not only great play, but stamina and perhaps biggest of all...LUCK. Yes it takes an extreme amount of "fortunate" circumstances combined with great play to win a big tournament with say 64 or more players.

To determine who is in the "elite" class...in my opinion there is only one way to find out. That is to have a "1 on 1" tournament. ;)

Banks
09-16-2013, 03:16 PM
That absolutely is just for fun and not about the money. Or it's a weird form of competition, instead of
using beads or a scoresheet, you use dollar bills to keep score.

I think you summed part of the reason up in that last sentence there. Having somebody hand something over to you is just the kicker. You can go around all day saying "I bet" to this and that, but it doesn't mean anything until somebody's having to pull out their wallet. People can blow big money doing all kinds of stupid things and not even care. Some of those same people will remember for years when they had to hand over $20 on a bet. Some play for money, some play with money. Either way, there's a bit of pride or personal feelings that go into investing yourself in something.

driven
09-16-2013, 03:21 PM
Very true, but in pure match play the animal is different than a gambler in the same situation. Not ALWAYS but I think they have and advantage because of how they process & manage the situation. Working out Cheap is waaaay different than high $take$ gambling. Many other issues come into play effecting the outcome. Hohmann is a fresh breath of air as is Ralph S.

It's probably true.

driven
09-16-2013, 03:25 PM
sorry for any confusion. It wasn't my doing
steven

jay helfert
09-16-2013, 03:34 PM
Do any of you know how much is "gambled" during practice rounds before a PGA golf tournament? I do, and a $1-5,000 Nassau is not unusual. I have heard of bets in the six figures between two prominent golfers for one round of play! If you don't think pro golfers gamble, you just don't know. Of course they are millionaires, but they're still betting high any way you look at it.

It's a not so well kept secret in PGA circles, they just don't discuss it publicly. At least not that much :wink:. I've heard a few of them slip up and talk about beating another player for a good chunk the day before. Sergio once said on the air that he won enough the day before to buy a new Mercedes.

SJDinPHX
09-17-2013, 08:28 AM
I think to be completely honest no one gambles to "make it interesting" or to have "some skin in the game" or whatever bullshit anyone wants to call it. People gamble for money, If money is not the motivator then you're probably not much of a gambler. I gamble often at pool, cards and golf. I generally win more than I lose. Do I need it to pay my mortgage, nope, but I get jazzed to win a few bucks. hell I won $70 and lunch today playing golf. It was an honest bet and I played well but I am not going to fool anyone to think that it wasn't about the money. I am not playing anyone for any great amount. That's not why I do it. In fact I just couldn't live with myself winning more than someone could afford to lose, I am a gambler not a hustler, I think there is a big difference. A hustler is basically stealing and never plays a game in which he would likely lose. A gambler loves the action, may hate to lose but knows it's possible. Pool gets it's bad rep from the hustler, not the gambler.

ND Fan, (which I am also)..I think you said it as well as it could be said !.. ALL gambling is about the money !..There are stupid gamblers, and there are smart gamblers. The 'smarts' will almost always prevail !..I have played, and gambled at high level (and high $$$) pool all my life, but I was never very good at "hustling" !..I rarely matched up getting the 'nuts' !.. I doubt I won near the money I could have, given my skill level.. But NO ONE enjoyed getting down in the mud, and gambling any more than I did !..Plus, I always slept well at night, which some people don't even care about..;)

SJD

CJ Wiley
09-17-2013, 09:46 AM
As the years pass, it seems the players that just play/workout/travel and compete , are becoming more prevalent than those that gamble to support themselves, especially in the later rounds. I could be wrong, but it's starting to feel that way. Thorston H. is a perfect example, easily comparable to a many PGA pros. Souquet also comes to mind, I'm sure there are others from over the pond.

I personally belive it's very difficult to be both. My background and forte was always gambling and the only times I really excelled in tournaments was when I stopped gambling and focused 100% on that type of play.

Tournaments are won by making great decisions, playing consistently, and keeping in a very focused state of mind......in gambling you must be more aggressive, a better shot maker, play "safe" less and be willing to play for many, many hours.

I appreciate what it takes to do both, although I doubt if many can do both at the same time.....Shane, Johnny, Rodney, and Alex are the exception, certainly not the "rule".

'The Game is the Teacher'

Dunnn51
09-17-2013, 10:17 AM
Like I said I'll take SVB and Alex over those two in any pressure situation time and time again. This doesn't mean they (Ralph especially) don't handle pressure, because of course their tournament record speaks for itself. Let us not forget what it takes to win a tournament. Not only great play, but stamina and perhaps biggest of all...LUCK. Yes it takes an extreme amount of "fortunate" circumstances combined with great play to win a big tournament with say 64 or more players. <------So,....THAT'S why I keep losing these regional tourneys! I gotta find 1 with 8 players in it !! :rolleyes::grin:

To determine who is in the "elite" class...in my opinion there is only one way to find out. That is to have a "1 on 1" tournament. ;)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^
Isn't the longer race for the two finalists inna tourney like a mini 1 on 1 tournament ??

1on1pooltournys
09-17-2013, 10:23 AM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^
Isn't the longer race for the two finalists inna tourney like a mini 1 on 1 tournament ??

Races to 11 or even 15 about as long as they get in tournaments. Top players consider these actually "short" sets. It takes a long time for the cream to rise against the upper echelon players.

ND Fan
09-17-2013, 10:56 AM
Your post is a little confusing. Not calling you out specifically cuz I've seen similar things said,
many times from many people.

If it's "not any great amount" and you don't bet enough to make anyone hurt,
then why were you jazzed to win $70? You don't strike me as a guy for who gets a ton of joy
from seventy bucks. If that much disappeared from your bank account, would anything really change
in your life? Would you have to cut back on something, or sell something, or skip something?

I think if the amount is "Not any great amount" then it's fair to say it really ISN'T about the money.

And plenty of people do bet just to make interesting. My buddy and I made worthless $1 and $5 side bets
on the maryland straight pool for example, silly stuff like "I bet $1 toasty is out in under 3 innings".
That absolutely is just for fun and not about the money. Or it's a weird form of competition, instead of
using beads or a scoresheet, you use dollar bills to keep score.

Good point... I have played numerous times just a for a buck. I know I have a gambling problem, so when I do gamble it's no longer for anything more than I can afford and I hate see anyone else lose more than they can afford. But winning anything over $50 gets me hyped up a bit. I am not rich nor would I say I am poor, but $50 plus is my personal number. Anything below it seems like change anything above it seems like the lottery. I am a weird dude though.

ND Fan
09-17-2013, 11:02 AM
Do any of you know how much is "gambled" during practice rounds before a PGA golf tournament? I do, and a $1-5,000 Nassau is not unusual. I have heard of bets in the six figures between two prominent golfers for one round of play! If you don't think pro golfers gamble, you just don't know. Of course they are millionaires, but they're still betting high any way you look at it.

It's a not so well kept secret in PGA circles, they just don't discuss it publicly. At least not that much :wink:. I've heard a few of them slip up and talk about beating another player for a good chunk the day before. Sergio once said on the air that he won enough the day before to buy a new Mercedes.


When someone like Sergio make a 10K nassau, it would be like me betting $2.00. Of course golfers gamble. It's just not too many are what you would call hustlers. They exist but they rarely make a dent unless it's some wealthy guy who just likes to play with good golfers. I played in some of those game while in college. They just pay to play with better players and gladly hand over $300 for the privilege.

ChicagoRJ
09-17-2013, 11:34 AM
I don't think any gambling should be allowed for pool to be viewed as a "real" sport either.
Gambling can only be allowed in football, baseball, hockey, boxing, tennis, golf, & racing.

Ok, that's funny... But I seriously doubt some baseball hitter standing in the box against a guy that throws 97mph, with a wicked 2 seam fastball, that moves in and down on a right handed hitter, stood there thinking "man, if only I had bet some money I could finally hit this guy :)

Dunnn51
09-18-2013, 03:06 PM
Races to 11 or even 15 about as long as they get in tournaments. Top players consider these actually "short" sets. It takes a long time for the cream to rise against the upper echelon players.

Yeah, I know what you are saying. Like 10-ball races to 30 are nothing to PRO's.

they are the cream! (as for me: I'm the sour milk on the other end!) :p