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View Full Version : My View on Sandbaggin and Leauge Play Has Changed


danstrokes
09-17-2013, 12:14 AM
Well, I joined a BCA, 9 Ball league this past summer and I was accused of sand bagging 4 times.

I've come to the conclusion that when you get in the zone and lay a but whoopin' on your opponent. Most of the time they will either:
A. Take the loss like a sportsman and admit defeat or

B. Call you a sandbagger because they know they just sucked a big one while taking a but pounding and need to some how make themselves feel like less of a looser.

Three of the times when I was accused of sandbagging happened on my most memorable matches.

The first was when I played a SL5 that smoked me when I was a SL4 earlier in the season. When I heard his Captain call his name to play me I thought to myself "hell yeah, payback time" Even though I was raised to an SL5 by the second match up. I knew I was ready. Everything I practiced all came together and I ended up shutting him down and winning the match 17-3.

He took it on the chin like a true sport, but his captain lost the next match to our SL3 who caught a gear and played great. That's when he accused us of being sandbaggers and yelled "this is no different than the APA!" He made another smart remark to our SL3 that made me realize how much of a sore loser he was. He'll never be a champion with that attitude.

The 2nd and 3rd time happened at the final tourney between all of the top 9 Ball teams throughout the week. I was playing strong so my team decided to throw me up first. Our opponents tossed up their SL4 who had only lost 1 match during the regular season. I knew they thought he was going to beat me. NOPE, after two shaky games, my nerves calmed and never looked back. Smoked him.

Our very second match we put up another one of our SL3's against their SL4. Our SL3 played like a legend. He sank the 9 four times on the break but what really shook the other team was that we taught him how to jump a ball. And he jumped 3 times during the match and sank the OB on one of his attempts.

Oh man the other team threw a shit storm. One of them yelled "I cant wait to watch your A player, with the way these guys are bagging he's gonna be a f*cking pro!" They complained so much the league operator came up to our team captain and said "whats up with this guy? An SL3 who can jump balls?" Umm yeah! We want to win so we taught him how to jump the ball and if you would have seen him try to jump a ball during the regular season you would understand why were as shocked as you are at how well he jumped them today.

On our final match up one of our players got smoked and we were behind big time. They put up their SL7 and he only needed to make 24 out of his 60 balls to get enough points for the total win. Guess who was the only person left to play, yep, yours truly. I'm an SL5 and had to keep him to 24 balls and I was up for it.

He won the toss and ran the first rack. He second break was dry. I get up and run them out, shot making and playing position like a pro. After a couple key shots in the rack half of his team were looking at me like "WTF, he's not suppose to be this good"

All in all, I had 19 of the 41 balls I needed to win and he ended up reaching his 24 ball mark. I played well but not well enough.

So every time one of our player was accused of sandbagging, it happened when they were playing the best they could and got a few rolls. And it made me wonder if half of the APA sandbagging complaining I read on here was just the result of someone having a good night and the looser is just trying to make an excuse as to why they lost and they cant just face the fact that the other guy was just better that night.

So the moral of the story here is If your gonna lose, lose like a champion, don't lose like a loser! Suck it up, go back to the drawing board and show up to play next time.

APA BRIAN
09-17-2013, 12:28 AM
excellent post, you are right on the money.

Dudley
09-17-2013, 12:40 AM
Anytime there are handicaps involved there are sandbaggers...

The reality is that if there is an edge to be had some will manipulate it.

The ones who complain aren't the shady ones in my experience. -->You'll never catch the scary ones with any certainty.

I personally gave up on leagues because in the end game it came down to who could sandbag the best. A skilled hustler/player can win or lose at will without showing speed.

There are two ways to play in handicapped leagues... Have fun and play hard with no regard to your rating/skill level or manipulate the system and choose every shot with the intention of hiding your true speed to benefit yourself and your team.

The first option doesn't win in the long run. (skill levels cap out or you run into a loaded team.)

I prefer playing hard so I stick with action and tournaments.

Dudley

Mitchxout
09-17-2013, 06:56 AM
If you're truly a 4 you couldn't play well enough to be in the zone.

CreeDo
09-17-2013, 08:00 AM
And it made me wonder if half of the APA sandbagging complaining I read on here was just the result of someone having a good night and the looser is just trying to make an excuse as to why they lost

Try 97%.

People give way too much importance to how you played the last 5 minutes, and not enough
to how you played the last 5 years. They pounce on flukes and ignore the fact that they had
chances to win and blew it.

Island Drive
09-17-2013, 09:11 AM
The beauty of our game is ones ''true character'' is exposed instantly. Toss in a few cocktails and matters progress/digress even quicker with this type of character/lack of.

Mickey Qualls
09-17-2013, 09:18 AM
Try 97%.

People give way too much importance to how you played the last 5 minutes, and not enough
to how you played the last 5 years. They pounce on flukes and ignore the fact that they had
chances to win and blew it.

^^^ This ^^^

You nailed it. Perfectly.

Mickey <--- Agrees with CreeDo...

LuckyStroke
09-17-2013, 09:30 AM
I've been playing APA nine all for seven years. For ine session I played eight and nine ball and was a SL4 in both. Four years later I'm a SL6 in nine ball and decide to play eight ball again and lo and behold I'm a SL4. The sandbagger labels flew all over the place. My only answer was "how can I sandbag a game I don't play?" And "did I just play like I was sandbagging?" Often followed by "you lost, suck it up" or "blow it out your ass".

rayjay
09-17-2013, 09:31 AM
Isn't sandbagging (hiding your true speed) just a part of pool's intrinsic heritage, part of the game? Why try to hide the fact that it happens everywhere and why not celebrate those who are best at it? Like is done outside of leagues, negotiating handicaps. Is disallowing sandbagging really realistic, and is it really naive for leaguers to think it won't happen? It will. What "handicapped" leagues need is a consistent way to reveal and address it, if they refuse to allow it, and that's really tough. Like telling fish not to swim or birds not to fly.

Mikey Town
09-17-2013, 09:36 AM
If you're truly a 4 you couldn't play well enough to be in the zone.

This couldn't be further from the truth.

He may not be able to play to the same level as you when you get into the "zone," but he can still get into his "zone." If he is a 4, when he gets in the "zone," he might play like a 6. That's good pool... and there is nothing wrong with that.

An A player's zone could have them playing like a shortstop.
A top level amateur's zone could have them playing like a pro.
Shane's zone has him playing like an alien.

We all have a different zone... one that is attainable to each and every one of us. To say otherwise is just plain ignorant.

woodyosborne
09-17-2013, 09:39 AM
23 rule works! they(apa) did raise the guy i know who played in the usopen to a 7 . AFTER COMPLAINTS WERE MADE. LOL!

Birriards
09-17-2013, 09:41 AM
Leagues generally boil down to this....

About 95% of people are either sandbagging, or complaining about sandbagging, They are all just one big ***** fest. Doesn't matter what city, what league, that's the standard.

se10player
09-17-2013, 09:46 AM
Their will always be people who complain no matter what. I went 15 for 15 one session in 8-Ball APA as a 6 but didn't go up and was accussed of sandbagging the whole time. The most innings any match had was 9. Just play the game for the love of the game, its the greatest.

hang-the-9
09-17-2013, 10:36 AM
23 rule works! they(apa) did raise the guy i know who played in the usopen to a 7 . AFTER COMPLAINTS WERE MADE. LOL!

Anyone can play in the US Open though, just pay the bucks and you're in. The question is HOW WELL did he play in the US Open?

Known ability is a lot more relevant to sandbagging than one good match. Often players in an area know each other for a while and from different tournaments and rooms. If poeple play in a tournament or even for fun and they play as a A player, then in league they are ranked a 5 out of 7, you know something is up.

Banks
09-17-2013, 11:37 AM
^^^ This ^^^

You nailed it. Perfectly.

Mickey <--- Agrees with CreeDo...


I agree with your agreeing with CreeDo!

I've been playing APA nine all for seven years. For ine session I played eight and nine ball and was a SL4 in both. Four years later I'm a SL6 in nine ball and decide to play eight ball again and lo and behold I'm a SL4. The sandbagger labels flew all over the place. My only answer was "how can I sandbag a game I don't play?" And "did I just play like I was sandbagging?" Often followed by "you lost, suck it up" or "blow it out your ass".

People are freakin babies. I had one guy say, "Aren't you too good for APA? You're damn near a pro." Dude has no idea what he's talking about. I don't think I've ever ran more than 3 racks. I'm not sure he's ever seen more than 2 run in a row, if that. Just tell people off, because they'll refuse to accept any answer you give them.

Nobody ever says, "Wow, you suck. I'm going to tell them you're rated too high."

Even in the BCA, there were some rated higher than I was for a while, but I could've given them a spot, or did give them a spot in APA and won. I just didn't get it done when it came time for the regional. I don't sandbag, I play to win. Some days I just play harder or better than others.

Cornerman
09-17-2013, 12:53 PM
Well, I joined a BCA, 9 Ball league this past summer and I was accused of sand bagging 4 times.

I've come to the conclusion that when you get in the zone and lay a but whoopin' on your opponent. Most of the time they will either:
A. Take the loss like a sportsman and admit defeat or

B. Call you a sandbagger because they know they just sucked a big one while taking a but pounding and need to some how make themselves feel like less of a looser.


. And it made me wonder if half of the APA sandbagging complaining I read on here was just the result of someone having a good night and the looser is just trying to make an excuse as to why they lost and they cant just face the fact that the other guy was just better that night.
.

Yes, half the time is exactly what you point out. The other half of the time is when somebody does lose, they're accused of sandbagging for the future.

So, that's nearly 100% of the complaints are bogus, but sandbagging does actually happen. But you actually have to be pretty good to properly sandbag.

justadub
09-17-2013, 01:10 PM
Yes, half the time is exactly what you point out. The other half of the time is when somebody does lose, they're accused of sandbagging for the future.

So, that's nearly 100% of the complaints are bogus, but sandbagging does actually happen. But you actually have to be pretty good to properly sandbag.

Agreed.

The few people I actually suspect are trying to sandbag around here aren't really that far ahead of the game. These guys might actually be one level below where they ought to be, and what is all that going to do for them in the long run? Learning how to miss consistently...these guys aren't so good that they'll just turn it on and run over someone.

It's almost funny. Fortunately, there are only a couple that I would even speculate are trying to do it. Most everyone here is where they should be. If course, some seem to play better than their current skill level, but not so much that its no more than a minor gripe. The computer will eventually correct those.

CreeDo is right.

allanpsand
09-17-2013, 01:58 PM
So every time one of our player was accused of sandbagging, it happened when they were playing the best they could and got a few rolls. And it made me wonder if half of the APA sandbagging complaining I read on here was just the result of someone having a good night and the looser is just trying to make an excuse as to why they lost and they cant just face the fact that the other guy was just better that night.

So the moral of the story here is If your gonna lose, lose like a champion, don't lose like a loser! Suck it up, go back to the drawing board and show up to play next time.


I would be willing to put good money on a bet that the vast majority of sandbagging complaints are from "bad" losers. They don't seem to complain about it when they win ;-)

Blue Hog ridr
09-17-2013, 01:58 PM
Been there, done that, seen and heard it all. Just Sour grapes.

Play your best and remember that this is what the game is all about. Playing your best and above all, having fun with your team. If you let a bunch of sore losers get to you, you will start to not enjoy your nights out as much.

Just play like a Sportsman because deep down inside, your opponents that have to make excuses know the real truth. That they just got their butts handed to them.

Last year we won a Vegas Trip. Oh yeah, we were second place but still, the losing team found something to complain about.

We worked hard for many years to get that far and as the LO told me, It was your turn to win.

Mitchxout
09-19-2013, 08:08 AM
This couldn't be further from the truth.

He may not be able to play to the same level as you when you get into the "zone," but he can still get into his "zone." If he is a 4, when he gets in the "zone," he might play like a 6. That's good pool... and there is nothing wrong with that.

An A player's zone could have them playing like a shortstop.
A top level amateur's zone could have them playing like a pro.
Shane's zone has him playing like an alien.

We all have a different zone... one that is attainable to each and every one of us. To say otherwise is just plain ignorant.

Just because someone is playing over their head doesn't mean they're in the zone. Also, a 4 doesn't have the game to experience the zone. In fact, a lot of guys never know how it feels. It's the same whether you're a musician or a bricklayer. The zone is reserved for only those with the dedication, experience, and talent. Sorry.

ronscuba
09-19-2013, 08:39 AM
How come so much is directed to the player and not the league director ? Isn't it the league directors job to accurately assign handicaps ?

Handicaps are assigned based on a players average level of play ? Not their bad nights, or good nights, but their average ?

justadub
09-19-2013, 08:45 AM
How come so much is directed to the player and not the league director ? Isn't it the league directors job to accurately assign handicaps ?

Handicaps are assigned based on a players average level of play ? Not their bad nights, or good nights, but their average ?

Because the LO can't watch every match, and assess if they think the player is intentionally playing below his true skill, and/or padding innings, etc.

In many cases, the LO isn't even in the same room. (Our league has divisions in approximately 15 towns across a couple hundred miles.)

It won't ever stop. So long as there are rules for anything, there will be those who try to circumvent the rules for their benefit.

I think most handicapping systems do try to account for highs and lows, to get to as close an "average" as possible, depending on various factors. Most should work fairly well, if players don't screw with the system.

APA Operator
09-19-2013, 09:26 AM
How come so much is directed to the player and not the league director ? Isn't it the league directors job to accurately assign handicaps ?

Handicaps are assigned based on a players average level of play ? Not their bad nights, or good nights, but their average ?

Not in APA. Averages are too easy to manipulate. APA tries to measure ability, as in "how well do you play when you're playing well"? Players can still play above their ability once in a while, so the system does account for that, but it doesn't measure average performance.

ronscuba
09-19-2013, 10:51 AM
Sorry, my experience is limited to 2 BCA leagues on 9ft tables in NYC. The league operator is in the pool hall during league night. So this is the background to my post.

IMHO, although not perfect, most handicaps in the leagues I play are accurate to +/- one level. I think it's a combination of the league operator watching people play, listening to complaints and reviewing stats. Win percentages are a big factor. Naturally it might take a while for a new player to be rated correctly and it is not uncommon for players who dominate during the playoffs to be raised the next season.

sflguy
09-19-2013, 11:14 AM
I think, It is "B. Call you a sandbagger because they know they just sucked a big one while taking a but pounding and need to some how make themselves feel like less of a looser".

Why would anyone want to play bad and lose?, there are no prizes for playing bad.

Some people are chronic complainers.

mantis99
09-19-2013, 11:34 AM
I consider myself a C+ player. On 3 different occasions I have run 3 straight racks of 9 ball, and on several occasions, I have run 4-5 in a row playing the 7 ball ghost. However, if you watched my average game, you would never think that was the case. Part of being a lower level player is inconsistency, so it is not unlikely that a C level player can have some real ups and downs. Heck I have played friends that are D- players that have had 3-4 game series where they looked like a solid C, so people have to be willing to accept some fairly significant ups and down. That being said, I have spoken to league players who have told me that if I played for them, I wouldn't be allowed to win certain matches, and I wouldn't be allowed to run over a certain number of balls. So I am sure it goes both ways.

leto1776
09-19-2013, 11:36 AM
Just because someone is playing over their head doesn't mean they're in the zone. Also, a 4 doesn't have the game to experience the zone. In fact, a lot of guys never know how it feels. It's the same whether you're a musician or a bricklayer. The zone is reserved for only those with the dedication, experience, and talent. Sorry.

Someone (not sure if it was you or someone else) said something pretty similar in a different thread, and it couldn't be more wrong. "The zone" is nothing more than a trance state one enters when things start going exactly as they want them to. Anyone can enter it at anytime, as long as they're concentrating on what they're doing. I've experienced it in pool (only a 3) and at work at the deli when I got all my products at the exact weighty for an hour straight.
Is the zone the same for everyone? No. It may only last a few minutes, and it certainly doesn't make someone a God at what they're doing. Stop treating like it's some mythical beast. It's just a trance state, and people move in and out of different trance States all the time.