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View Full Version : Diamond Bar Box vs Valley bar box


StuartTKelley
09-17-2013, 07:31 AM
Why would certain players(myself included) play much better on a Diamond bar box vs a Valley bar box? I'm talking about standard set ups, no alterations to the Valley. You could go as far as comparing a Valley with ridgeback rails to a standard Diamond bar box....Just wanting some opinions on why it's so much different. Curious to hear some opinions.

jalapus logan
09-17-2013, 07:59 AM
It is because Diamond tables play with much more consistency and the valleys do not, even with the ridgeback rails. I know, I've got one of each in my basement and I upgraded the valley with the Ridgeback rails (which are awesome and I heartily recommend, by the way). Many valleys are just old and beat down in many/most locations and they just have to many bad rolls due to bowed/sanded/whatever else slate, poor cloth conditions, poor balls, improper rail height, etc, etc. The list goes on and on. Anything that is inconsistent has a tendency to shark players, even good/great ones.

For instance, one can and should play a finesse game on proper equipment. In such an environment, you can slow roll balls and have them roll straight. Not so on many of these valley/other bar tables. The result is sharking the shooter because they can't play their normal game. To avoid such a poor result in the bars with sub-par equipment, IMO, you should put a little more "pepper" on your shots and avoid slow rolls almost at all costs. Just my opinion of course.

Roger Long
09-17-2013, 08:16 AM
I think the slow-rolling problem on the Valley table is due mostly to the fact that they traditionally use a woolen cloth (one that causes roll-offs on slow rolling balls), whereas Diamond tables use Simonis cloth (one that allows the balls to roll straight). That's where the consistency/inconsistencies mostly come from. The other difference is the cut of the pockets. The Diamond pockets are tougher (they force you to bear down and shoot straighter).

Roger

LuckyStroke
09-17-2013, 08:26 AM
It's because they're different tables. :-D

Ken_4fun
09-17-2013, 08:28 AM
I think the slow-rolling problem on the Valley table is due mostly to the fact that they traditionally use a woolen cloth (one that causes roll-offs on slow rolling balls), whereas Diamond tables use Simonis cloth (one that allows the balls to roll straight). That's where the consistency/inconsistencies mostly come from. The other difference is the cut of the pockets. The Diamond pockets are tougher (they force you to bear down and shoot straighter).

Roger

Agree 100%.

Roger said it better than I could but those are thoughts exactly.

Ken

david(tx)
09-17-2013, 08:36 AM
Why would certain players(myself included) play much better on a Diamond bar box vs a Valley bar box? I'm talking about standard set ups, no alterations to the Valley. You could go as far as comparing a Valley with ridgeback rails to a standard Diamond bar box....Just wanting some opinions on why it's so much different. Curious to hear some opinions.


I've played on a Diamond about 3 times and i noticed a couple of things , one may not be noticeable to others . The Diamond surface sets up a little higher so how you see the ball is a little different , i'm 5'9 . I think the rails on Diamonds cause the balls to separate more than Valley's so you get less difficult clusters to break out and avoid.

Mark Griffin
09-17-2013, 08:48 AM
The most noticeable difference is the cue ball. Most Diamonds use the red circle - which is a high quality product.

Valley tables have to use a magnetic ball - and by design, the cue ball has been altered. This has a tendency to cause the ball to be off-balance.

When slow rolling, it has a tendency to roll off.

So with a valley table, you have to expect odd cue ball rolls.

Mark Griffin

Ken_4fun
09-17-2013, 09:07 AM
The most noticeable difference is the cue ball. Most Diamonds use the red circle - which is a high quality product.

Valley tables have to use a magnetic ball - and by design, the cue ball has been altered. This has a tendency to cause the ball to be off-balance.

When slow rolling, it has a tendency to roll off.

So with a valley table, you have to expect odd cue ball rolls.

Mark Griffin

Yep, that too.

Ken

MoonshineMattK
09-17-2013, 09:11 AM
Valley rails are bolted through the sides of the cabinet not to the slate, 7ft Diamond rails bolt through the slate - Just like a 9ft Diamond or a Gold Crown. Diamond rails are also much thicker and wider adding strength and allowing the balls to rebound truly.

Valley slate sits (not bolted down) on tiny ledges extending from the cabinet and on two under designed cross stretchers that are weak and allow the slate to sag. Most valleys I have seen have around .030" sag in the slate. This sag is one reason that causes slow rolling balls on a valley to roll off. 7ft Diamonds have a strong frame capable of supporting the weight without sagging - Just like a 9ft Diamond or a Gold Crown

LuckyStroke
09-17-2013, 09:16 AM
Sometime ago there was a thread about an aramith purple logo cue ball for valley bar boxes, but haven't heard anything in a while. I thought this would make a big difference in the way valley tables played. Are they out there?

StuartTKelley
09-17-2013, 09:21 AM
All great responses so far guys. Very interesting to hear the technical differences for sure. I always play better on a Diamond but wanted to know more about the things mentioned above. Thanks. Anything more that can be added would be great to hear.

StuartTKelley
09-17-2013, 09:22 AM
Sometime ago there was a thread about an aramith purple logo cue ball for valley bar boxes, but haven't heard anything in a while. I thought this would make a big difference in the way valley tables played. Are they out there?

Ben, are you going to do anything productive today? LOL

LuckyStroke
09-17-2013, 09:34 AM
Ben, are you going to do anything productive today? LOL

I'll be playing eight ball on some valleys later, does this count?

DAVE_M
09-17-2013, 09:46 AM
Main reason: Cloth
Alternate reason: Rails

I've played on Valley's with shimmed pockets and Simonis, no problems.

cardiac kid
09-17-2013, 10:30 AM
Why would certain players(myself included) play much better on a Diamond bar box vs a Valley bar box? I'm talking about standard set ups, no alterations to the Valley. You could go as far as comparing a Valley with ridgeback rails to a standard Diamond bar box....Just wanting some opinions on why it's so much different. Curious to hear some opinions.

Stu,

Other than the difference in rail rubber, small Diamond tables also have a slate roughly twIce as thick as a Valley. Also add in the shear number of leveling adjustments available on a small Diamond. Also consider the playing surface height of a Diamond versus a Valley.

Most of the year, I play on Valley Cougars with Simonis 860 cloth. When in Vegas, it's Diamonds with 860. Both setups use red dot cue balls. Played a guy in the ACS finals who obviously played on Valley's with a weighted / magnetic cue ball much more than me. Honestly could not do things with the cue ball I watched him do. On the Diamond's with a red dot at BCAPL, he struggled. Actually, so did I :o !

Understand more and more just how great Keith, Larry, Dave and a few others must have been with the HUGE rock.

Lyn

jhanso18
09-17-2013, 11:00 AM
It's been said already, but most Valley's don't have good cloth, new/good rails, etc. Diamonds usually do. Makes a HUGE difference.

Banks
09-17-2013, 11:15 AM
It's because they're different tables. :-D

What he said!

Most of the year, I play on Valley Cougars with Simonis 860 cloth. When in Vegas, it's Diamonds with 860. Both setups use red dot cue balls. Played a guy in the ACS finals who obviously played on Valley's with a weighted / magnetic cue ball much more than me. Honestly could not do things with the cue ball I watched him do. On the Diamond's with a red dot at BCAPL, he struggled. Actually, so did I :o !

I normally play on the same, but without the Simonis. On a Diamond, you have to have a touch going unless you're just killing it. On Valleys, you have to muscle the CB around more. The difference in those speeds/rails make a huge change to how the ball reacts when getting leaves.

I like Diamonds because they're much more consistent from one to the next, but I've spent so much time on Valleys that I'm more accustomed to that style of play. Heavy ball is one style again and the logo/light ball is a bit closer to the red circle.

Fustercluck
09-17-2013, 11:34 AM
Why are the rails on a Diamond table SOOOOO bouncy? Most that Ive played on, the ball bounces off the rail faster than when it hit it..

TWOFORPOOL
09-17-2013, 12:20 PM
The Diamond tables are much faster and require less speed and stroke to get around the table and that's why you play better on a Diamond. On any kind of table the harder you hit the cue ball the harder it is to hit it exactly where you are aiming and control the speed of the shot.

iusedtoberich
09-17-2013, 12:47 PM
Why are the rails on a Diamond table SOOOOO bouncy? Most that Ive played on, the ball bounces off the rail faster than when it hit it..

Number one complaint of any Diamond table, for years now.

DallasHopps
09-17-2013, 01:01 PM
The average age of each table, and the resulting wear, seems to be the biggest factor in quality of play. Cloth, cue ball, rails, etc can make a difference in play style, but all things being equal the valleys locally are just worn out and no fun.

BeachBum2012
09-17-2013, 02:02 PM
I play on Diamond bar boxes five days a week, but my only experience with Valley tables was in Vegas last month. I agree with a lot of what was said already. The cloth plays a role, the rails, the way the slate is mounted, the pocket sizes, all of these add up.

I too play better on the Diamond tables. The Valley pockets look like the Grand Canyon compared to the Diamond, but I rattled a lot more shots. My theory is that I typically play a finesse game most of the time. The fast, even cloth on the Diamonds allows me to play this game well without worry of the cue ball rolling off and with very little effort to move the ball around the table if need be. On the Valley tables I had to put a bit more power into every stroke. The harder I hit, the less accurate I am. I can't hit really soft on the Valley table because of the roll and because it might come up short.

The other major difference I found was the bounce of the rails. I typically kick three rails, corner to corner to get a feel for new tables, amongst other things. The difference between the two tables is more than a diamond width apart. I can drop down on any well maintained Diamond table and know exactly where to hit for that shot without thinking about it. I use that for the basis of most of my kicking throughout a game by adjusting to each situation. On the Valley, I had to find the new spot and then adjust my entire kicking game to the way the rails bounced. That means that every time I kicked I had to put way more thought into it than I'm used to.

All in all, I like both. They both seem consistent from one table to the next. I just think its a matter of what you're used to.