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View Full Version : Ruling, late drop?


krychekrowe
09-17-2013, 10:57 AM
Playing 10-ball. After the break I push the ten ball towards a pocket. It rolls to far and now it's barely staying on the table, almost dropping in the pocket. My opponent, decides to take the shot on the one ball, thinks the shot over and calls the ten ball. He wacks the one ball nothing is even close to the ten but it drops anyway. Guess from some vibrations to the table. What happens, does it count?

Black-Balled
09-17-2013, 11:05 AM
I believe it gets replaced and play resumes.

Or, if he's a sucker, you say 'damn, didn't think you kknew that shot!' and pay the man!

Nostroke
09-17-2013, 11:07 AM
replace where it was but many opponents would still argue it was touched

swest
09-17-2013, 11:07 AM
Not to hijack your thread, but a similar question might come up in the following 8-ball scenario.

Player A is on the 8-ball, and shoots it to a corner pocket, where it hangs on the edge.

Player B, more than 5 seconds later, comes to the table to execute a shot at the complete other end of the table. His shot obviously has no involvement with the 8-ball, which is 9' away. Before the balls come to rest, the 8-ball drops in. Does Player B lose the game on this?

CreeDo
09-18-2013, 09:30 AM
The way it works (I believe) is after 5 seconds, if nothing touches the object ball and it falls in, it gets replaced as if it never fell in. Doesn't matter what you are doing, or what the other guy did.
You cannot legally make a shot without using another ball.

You won't hear "Vibrate it in to win!"

Charlie Hustle
09-18-2013, 09:36 AM
The way it works (I believe) is after 5 seconds, if nothing touches the object ball and it falls in, it gets replaced as if it never fell in. Doesn't matter what you are doing, or what the other guy did.
You cannot legally make a shot without using another ball.

You won't hear "Vibrate it in to win!"

This is correct. Nothing else needs to be said in here. Lets go read the "Whats the best tip?" thread. I cant wait!

Donny Lutz
09-18-2013, 09:41 AM
The way it works (I believe) is after 5 seconds, if nothing touches the object ball and it falls in, it gets replaced as if it never fell in. Doesn't matter what you are doing, or what the other guy did.
You cannot legally make a shot without using another ball.

You won't hear "Vibrate it in to win!"

Just for the sake of discussion, suppose the shooter did make a legal shot, by driving an object ball hard into a rail. He did call the 8. Jus' sayin'.

I'd spot it, too.

CreeDo
09-19-2013, 11:31 AM
Just for the sake of discussion, suppose the shooter did make a legal shot, by driving an object ball hard into a rail. He did call the 8. Jus' sayin'.

I'd spot it, too.

I can see how vibrating the rail is one way to make a ball that involves normal physics,
and fits all the requirements of a legal shot. I can't imagine someone calling a 'vibration' shot,
and making it in a match. I guess if they did that to me I'd be so impressed I'd let the ball stay down lol.

One of those extremely odd situations that the rule writers never thought to cover.

Nostroke
09-19-2013, 12:32 PM
I can see how vibrating the rail is one way to make a ball that involves normal physics,
and fits all the requirements of a legal shot. I can't imagine someone calling a 'vibration' shot,
and making it in a match. I guess if they did that to me I'd be so impressed I'd let the ball stay down lol.

One of those extremely odd situations that the rule writers never thought to cover.

and last i knew there was no specific rule against helping the table vibrate. Kid Delicious tried to help balls in a few times that i saw.

PaulieB
09-19-2013, 12:53 PM
I was watching a pro match being streamed and the shooter hit the ball just barely enough to get it to the hole. It rested on the edge for about a second and then just fell in somehow... and then I saw all the cloth bunched up under his hand where he literally pushed the cloth towards that pocket with his bridge hand that was still on the table.

Nobody called him on it (and I'm honestly not sure if it even made a difference from 5 feet away) but I thought it was rather unsportsmanlike.

maha
09-19-2013, 01:01 PM
if a ball falls in during your shot meaning after you hit the cue ball it counts as pocketed. it has to . just think you are playing and a ball is hanging and another ball passes by it and it goes in. who is now supposed to be able to call whether it was hit by that ball or just fell.

tatcat2000
09-19-2013, 01:41 PM
I can see how vibrating the rail is one way to make a ball that involves normal physics,
and fits all the requirements of a legal shot.

That observation is technically correct under both WSR and BCAPL rules. Nowhere in either rule set is there actually a requirement for the cue ball to contact an object ball during a shot. And in this particular situation, the remainder of the "legal shot" requirements have been met since a ball was pocketed.

However, as a practical matter I can see that argument being lost, since most protest authorities would have a valid argument that the rules requiring a legal object ball to be struck first logically presume a requirement that an object ball be contacted. Not saying that the other argument is wrong - just saying I would bet dollars to donuts that more often than not you are going to lose that fight if it were to come up in a tournament.

In any event, that does not excuse the rule writing bodies for the oversight. I have added it to the agenda for discussion for the next edition of the BCAPL/CSI rule book, and can predict that the problem will be remedied. Can't answer for WSR or any other rule set.

One of those extremely odd situations that the rule writers never thought to cover.

Not true for CSI/BCAPL. The BCAPL rules do cover it. Despite the lack of an actual requirement to contact an object ball, the specific situation is covered by BCAPL Applied Ruling 1-48/1-49 Situation 1. The ruling is that the ball is not pocketed. BCAPL Rule 1-49, Balls Settling or Moving, applies and the result of the shot is per the provisions of 1-49-4-b or 1-49-4-c, whichever applies. :smile:

For the OP situation, the answers have already been provided. Replace the ball and continue play. Under BCAPL Rule 1-49-3 applies. Under WSR Rules 1.7 and 8.3 apply.


Buddy Eick
CSI National Head Referee
CSI Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League
bca_referee@yahoo.com

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

* Unless specifically stated, the contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Unless specifically stated, no reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post.
* Neither I, nor any BCAPL referee, make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 and the BCAPL Rules "Statement of Principles" apply.
* For General Rules, 8-Ball, 9-Ball, 10-Ball, and 14.1 Continuous: there is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules" for those games. The BCA has no rules committee. The BCA does not edit, nor is responsible for the content of, the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials. The BCAPL maintains what we consider to be the most structured, complete and intensive referee training program available.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA. The letters "BCA" in BCAPL do not stand for "Billiard Congress of America, nor for anything at all.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
* All BCAPL members are, as always, encouraged to e-mail Bill Stock at the BCAPL National Office, bill@playcsi.com, with any comments, concerns or suggestions about the BCAPL rules.

tatcat2000
09-19-2013, 01:47 PM
and last i knew there was no specific rule against helping the table vibrate.

That might be tongue-in-cheek, but so not true...

In CSI/BCAPL foul under 1-40-b-4. Under WSR, foul under 6.16 (b).

B

CreeDo
09-19-2013, 01:50 PM
and last i knew there was no specific rule against helping the table vibrate. Kid Delicious tried to help balls in a few times that i saw.

I saw all the cloth bunched up under his hand where he literally pushed the cloth towards that pocket with his bridge hand that was still on the table.

Nobody called him on it (and I'm honestly not sure if it even made a difference from 5 feet away) but I thought it was rather unsportsmanlike.

This stuff reminds me a funny scene on the accustats bloopers tape.
Can't remember exactly how it went. I think mike sigel was involved.
One of the players blows on a ball to keep it up (or keep it from scratching, something like that).
He complained and a ref asked if mike actually touched the ball. When the opponent said no,
the ref let it stand (!?) and walked away.

Everyone was having a pretty good laugh but I'm sure his opponent wouldn't laugh if
a ruling like that cost him a set and some money.

In any case, I was stumped trying to think if the rules actually specifically forbid this stuff.
Looks like it's covered here:

6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct
(b) changing the position of the balls in play other than by a shot;

You could argue that bumping the rail on a shot to vibrate the ball in,
or maybe bumping the table with your hip midstroke, is all part of "a shot" and therefore
doesn't fit the rule above. But to me that's clearly unsportsmanlike, and the player
is simply doing 2 things at once: a shot, and something unsportsmanlike.

if a ball falls in during your shot meaning after you hit the cue ball it counts as pocketed. it has to . just think you are playing and a ball is hanging and another ball passes by it and it goes in. who is now supposed to be able to call whether it was hit by that ball or just fell.

I can imagine a situation like you're saying... someone hangs a ball very deep and resting against
one of the jaws. He hooks the other guy. So that player tries to make it railfirst.
His cue ball whiffs very close and then the ball falls anyway from the rail getting bumped.
I actually saw this like 2 months ago I think.

Anyway, in that case, the ref has a tough call of trying to decide if the ball or the vibration made it drop.

Even though this is a tough call that might lead to arguments, I disagree that the ruling should be
"if any ball falls during your shot it counts". There are plenty of times when no ball goes anywhere near
the hanger. No reason to count the hanger then, it clearly wasn't made by a shot, unless
you want to stretch the definition of a "shot" to include bumping the table with your hip midstroke.

stick8
09-19-2013, 03:32 PM
going to make this short and sweet-----the ansewr to both 8ball -and 10 ball question is!!!!!!!drum roll---the ball has to be hit by another ball on good hit to count-if not they are placed back to originel position, i know as i have had to call that shot several times over my years of td-androom owener stick kytle!!!!:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:.

hang-the-9
09-19-2013, 06:14 PM
I remember this, Sigel did the blowing.

There was something around the ball on the table, and Sigel blew on it to get rid of it, it was probably too close to the ball that he did not want to reach with his hand for risk of touching the ball. The opponent came up and said that it should be a foul as moving a ball like that is not allowed (it's not an incidental contact during a shot, it would have been like someone reaching out and moving a ball, breath, fingers, whatever, it's all the same). Sigel said "what do you think, I was trying to blow the ball in the pocket??". Call went to Sigel.

This stuff reminds me a funny scene on the accustats bloopers tape.
Can't remember exactly how it went. I think mike sigel was involved.
One of the players blows on a ball to keep it up (or keep it from scratching, something like that).
He complained and a ref asked if mike actually touched the ball. When the opponent said no,
the ref let it stand (!?) and walked away.

Everyone was having a pretty good laugh but I'm sure his opponent wouldn't laugh if
a ruling like that cost him a set and some money.

In any case, I was stumped trying to think if the rules actually specifically forbid this stuff.
Looks like it's covered here:

6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct
(b) changing the position of the balls in play other than by a shot;

You could argue that bumping the rail on a shot to vibrate the ball in,
or maybe bumping the table with your hip midstroke, is all part of "a shot" and therefore
doesn't fit the rule above. But to me that's clearly unsportsmanlike, and the player
is simply doing 2 things at once: a shot, and something unsportsmanlike.

Nostroke
09-19-2013, 06:19 PM
going to make this short and sweet-----the ansewr to both 8ball -and 10 ball question is!!!!!!!drum roll---the ball has to be hit by another ball on good hit to count-if not they are placed back to originel position, i know as i have had to call that shot several times over my years of td-androom owener stick kytle!!!!:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:.

What if there was a good hit and OB went by the hanging ball and the breeze was just enough to make it fall? Same thing?