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swami4u
09-17-2013, 02:26 PM
CJ Willy "You're right of course, up until now pool has lacked that "wow factor".

We intend on changing this scenario because at the end of the day it's not about the game, it's about the characters in the show....it's about entertainment. I seriously doubt if the game being played will end up being more than 20% of the show.....until it catches on.

The general public, from my experience, likes the Underbelly of Pool - the gambling, violence, bar scenes, sex situations, etc all blended into a "Soprano's/Breaking Bad" type cocktail....shaken, not stirred Then, once the interest is developed and the emotional attachment is secure.....they will be enticed by THE GAME....but not until this development phase has been consummated. 'The Game is the Teacher' "

So, in another thread, i read the above, from CJ Wiley. It pretty much sums up what i have felt for years about pool.

Lets dig deeper!

Lets go back to when we were younger. What attracted us to pool? Was it
sitting in a sterile environment, quite as a mouse, for hours at a time, watching two guys run racks? Or was it the whole pool-hall environment, old guys matching up, screaming at each other trying to make a game? Seeing the players with their wads of cash flopping down on the table? Dreaming of nailing the pool room groupie tramp, when we were only 16 yrs old?

Today, the push is too clean up the image of the game. You do that, you lose 100% of what draws in new young players. Lets face it, if your not a pool junkie, you wont ever enjoy sitting hours, still, quite, watching two robots run racks. At 16, most of us couldn't sit still for 10 mins, forget about hours at a time. On the other hand, we could sit and watch for hours if the two players were entertaining, loud, obnoxious, funny, mad, etc etc....This is what draws in the next generation of players.

Shame on MOST of the Pros Recent example: Bonus Ball.....

Event in Las Vegas, all the "pros" in the world in one spot, for 6+ months!
Should have been a dam Circus in Vegas!
Let me tell you how it was.....

A ghost town, a few touring pros around town early (good for you) and the rest arrived the day the money was flowing (as planned) and left the day the money stopped. Then afterwards, cry cry about how it didn't work out. You
were paid to PROMOTE the game. I saw 6 touring pros' in 2 different states. NOT ONE mention of Bonus Ball from any of them. It was like a dam secret.

When i drove to Vegas, i stopped in 4 pool halls'.
How in the world can most people, not all in a pool hall, not know the best players in the world are arriving in Vegas, for 6 months!?? 2 months before it happened?

When i did see the few pro's match up and play in Vegas, the rail was good' people wanting to watch. Pro player in...plays game.....pro player out...not a peep to anyone about anything! Way to earn your money PROMOTING a game! Your fault the thing didn't work. You were getting paid for PROMOTING the game, and most of them didn't do jack, except arrive for the hand out.


Someone gave the best players in the world a tool to make money, and the Pros dropped the ball. They don't have any clue how to promote a game....
Only thing they know is easy money' on a handout. And how to run out 5 racks of 9 ball, the most BORING way possible...

Rant off:

SO how should it had been? Anyone can have a opinion on the past, should'a could'a would'a'

Every Pro that was going to get paid to promote a game should have been carrying a set of bouns balls' and playing with every person that wanted to try. Every pro should have been in Vegas a month+ early, creating action and buzz for the new game....

Every Pro should have been on this site' promoting the game/talking with the casual players all day and night......

Teams should have made side bets with each other, to add a element of fun to the game. In a public forum, like this one. Just a example, team that loses a match has to wear pink wigs in the next match...How many would pay for a stream, if you got to see Earl Strickland in a pink wig? Just a example, far out i know, but you should get the point! Make the game fun again, remove stick from back side....Think up crazy fun ways to remove the boring....grow an imagination...

Just like CJ said, the FIRST DRAW of a new pool player is the character/odd personalities of pool players....then the bug bites, and the rest falls into place. Without that, you have a boring, generic game, that appeals to zero young people......or anyone really, except us, the addicted to pool crowd.

What good are your trophies now...collecting dust? The typical Pro today is a boring person, not a bit of fun, stone faced, over serious, click monger. Fact...they feed on people swinging off the "church bells"
Yea, they run balls well, and put asleep 99% of the human population doing it. Then act shocked about why pool is not taking off in the US, wake up call....Your BORING!

So IMHO, bring back the strange, unique, non typical personality. Bring back the fun, the odd! Stick a bomb in the tail end of the clickster' pro....let the players be players, stop requiring them to act like alter boys and girls...

The Pros need to stop worrying so much what people say and think, a player is a walking circus, fun fun fun, action action action. I have seen this, for many years. When the MIZ walked into a pool room, that was slow and quite most of the time, it turned into a circus environment. Action, jokes, laughs, and most important, something everyone could get involved with. Many of the great true players had this, today, not so much.....

So, take the stick out of your tail end, and try to make the game fun again...

You want pool to attract people,then start doing something that makes them want to watch. If they are around the event, do something that allows them to be involved. You have nothing going on, start a dam 1.00 game and tell every weak player in the joint to line up. Kick that tail, for a 1.00 a game all night, keep emm' smiling and having a good time, and see how many come back the next night to do it again....How about a free lesson for 20mins of your life, to keep one? Too much to ask, then live broke?
Nah' try to run right up in them for 50 a hour...lets see how many times they come back for that..... It's a very simple fix, if you have a clue.

Is it not time for old school players to start speaking up? Letting these "players" know how lame and boring they are? Drinking their water, sitting like a stone faced statue all the time, basking in their self induced fame, lack of any imagination and personality. Walking around like they are the elite, keeping it quite, like a secret, when they should be out going, loud, funny. It's called promoting! The only promoting they do is for their click, all the sub par players swinging off a pros nut' And they cant get enough.......




http://vintagehalloffamevideospartll.blogspot.com/2008/04/fats-hof-speech-part-1.html

http://vintagehalloffamevideospartll.blogspot.com/2008/04/fats-speech-hall-of-fame-dinner-part-ll.html

http://vintagehalloffamevideospartll.blogspot.com/2008/04/fats-speech-hall-of-fame-dinner-part.html

Don't take it from me, listen to the greatest promoter of all time for pool'

At 16 or so, we would go to the 24 hour pool room, sit with a coke, and just wait for the old timers to start trying to match up. We would watch the games laughing at all the antics. The personality's is what we wanted to see, Love of the game never was a thought at that time.


Every pool room had a few distinct personalities.

Some of them

1: the hot shot
2: the pool bum under the table sleeping at 4am
3: the know it all
4: the professor- intellectual
5: loud mouth
6: comedian

As young future players (didn't know it at the time) we loved them all........

Today: You got Blah blah blah.......boring boring boring......
For the old school players, its not even fun to watch, its depressing....
that's why they are GONE.....Most of them.....

And for the casual player fan.....

Some people (majority) come on this site, and just can't stfu on others peoples dirt. It's like a dam hobby, Just read the threads, people sticking that nose into things that don't even concern them. News for you, pool player without a little dirt ain't no player.....Example (out of 1000's on this site)
Keith Mc' now i don't know this guy at all, but i know he posted on here until all the BORING ass, yuppie players, ran him off with insults. All that guy did is LIVE pool.

Let me tell you the reason this happens.....cause the people talking ain't got the set, to live pool..........So they disrespect the person that can!
It's a defense mechanism. I cant believe how many pros have been run off this site. I wont even get into how many dam people ruin the game for true players, with all the cross talk on this site..........So yes, these people who talk and walk like they love pool, are killing it...........funny huh?

"let men be men" In other words, if your not involved with anything cause your peas are too small, keep your trap shut, and let men be men. Stop posting up cell phone pics of players, and playing match maker. Your killing
the pros way of life......

Hustlers and scufflers if you don't know what that is, news flash, your in the way mushroom.......Don't be in the way, let men be men.......

The casual player/fan won't know any better, unless players start telling them. So take your cell phone cam back a couple of decades, and fire that off in a real pool hall, report back how that works for ya please!

Final note: I have 100% respect for the new players that live the game.....I just don't think they have been taught to promote it right. They just need to listen more to people that have a clue.......they need to get into a big room, and hash it out. But that can't happen, they could not organize a money cutting party. Bonus ball was that, if they worked it right....

i have 0 respect for people that hang off the nut' of players. Your a dam groupie.....and to make matters worse, you stick your nose into games that have nothing to do with you. You help kill the game for people trying to live it right. Congratz' you have just about done it!

Everyone that loves the game of pool can do something a little different. But if the old school players don't start stepping up and explaining this to the new generation of player, then its going to continue to fall'


old way of thinking.....it works all the time......its how pool can contiune and strive. Its not only a money thing, think over that.......

one . for you

one . for me

two .. for you
two ... for me

three ... for you
three ...... for me

four for you ....
four for me ..........

See? the pros need to get this quick, spread it out, make it fun for all players weak and strong....give some to make some...lessons, free play, cheap games, etc etc etc...And the casual players need to have fun, support the pros some, but stay out of the way most of the time, so the pros can live it, without begin broke....

Stop preaching save the game, when your just killing it. Any person has the common sense to know when they are in the way of a player making money.....and if they choose not to know, then people should educate them.

It only took a minute, back yrs ago, for a young person to learn what was okay and what was bad in a pool hall........Simple math....If your around a player, and you can't bet or play like he can, your a groupie......keep mouth shut, turn off cell phone cams, and let the real player be a player. And for God sake's, let off the death grip on the players "church bells"

On the other hand, your good for one thing, letting players know who the best players are in your town! Cause your little pack rat ways' point out the players to other players in under 5 mins! See how you hurt a player trying to LIVE pool? Now you do, with just 1 simple example.....

educate new players, players.....

That should give em' something to talk about!

Banks
09-17-2013, 02:36 PM
Shame on MOST of the Pros Recent example: Bonus Ball.....

Event in Las Vegas, all the "pros" in the world in one spot, for 6+ months!
Should have been a dam Circus in Vegas!
Let me tell you how it was.....

A ghost town, a few touring pros around town early (good for you) and the rest arrived the day the money was flowing (as planned) and left the day the money stopped. Then afterwards, cry cry about how it didn't work out. You
were paid to PROMOTE the game. I saw 6 touring pros' in 2 different states. NOT ONE mention of Bonus Ball from any of them. It was like a dam secret.

You wrote a lot of words!

I've always felt that people want to see the gambling and so on! Otherwise, it's like watching a 'drama' without any drama. It's just a boring stream of uneventful events!

Yes, yes and yes on the other point. Many "pro" players don't take their profession as a job. That means going out and marketing themselves and the game. Look at tennis and other sports - the players work to get their names out there. I'm not sure if "pro" players know that there are leagues out there. I mean, if I was doing something that I wanted to make money from, I'd make sure it got in front of those that would either spend the money or those that would support it. That means showing up at league events, even swinging by on regular league nights, and getting in some face time.

There's a certain person here that will disagree and say that we're all trying to take advantage of them and that we'd eat their babies.

pt109
09-17-2013, 02:48 PM
Thanx for the videos...

Fatty "Wherever you're from, I've been there."
:smile:

Roger Long
09-17-2013, 02:58 PM
There's a lot of good feedback being offered here. I wonder if any of the pros or promoters will pay any attention to it?

Roger

swami4u
09-17-2013, 03:00 PM
You wrote a lot of words!

I've always felt that people want to see the gambling and so on! Otherwise, it's like watching a 'drama' without any drama. It's just a boring stream of uneventful events!

Yes, yes and yes on the other point. Many "pro" players don't take their profession as a job. That means going out and marketing themselves and the game. Look at tennis and other sports - the players work to get their names out there. I'm not sure if "pro" players know that there are leagues out there. I mean, if I was doing something that I wanted to make money from, I'd make sure it got in front of those that would either spend the money or those that would support it. That means showing up at league events, even swinging by on regular league nights, and getting in some face time.

There's a certain person here that will disagree and say that we're all trying to take advantage of them and that we'd eat their babies.


Thanks for starting out on a positive note. I don't want to sound like im on a rant, just what i feel is some hard facts. If know-one speaks up, then pool won't change.

As for pros at league nights? O' boy....that would mean they had to be around "bangers" God forbid....they would prob make a 100 doing 5 20$ lessons in 2 hours. but that ain't no money right?.... but more then that giant goose egg they are making now....it's all about image with MOST of them, not all....

bdorman
09-17-2013, 03:16 PM
I think you're on the right track about using "pool hall ambiance" in a TV show. Both The Hustler and Color of Money showed the seedy side of pool...and did more for pool than any tournament ever did.

I still want to see them play my version of 8-ball: same 15 balls, but there are two CBs on the table; your CB (red measle) and my CB (blue measle) and we play at the same time...first one that sinks the 8-ball wins.

Hip-checking is legal, but high-sticking is a foul.

RiCHiE$RiCH
09-17-2013, 03:22 PM
To the OP. Well said. This new generation is a joke. People are so fake it's disgusting. In the pool halls most of the people on the forum wouldn't have nothing to say to people like they do on these forums. Here everyone thinks they know everything and haven't done anything. And it seems everyone always knows what's best for someone else but can't do nothing for themselves. It's time for these people to realize where they are headed. I doubt if many of the pool players today could even survive in the pool hall environment of yesteryear. They are all computerized like robots with no personality or wit. It's time to bring the old school back.

Banks
09-17-2013, 03:27 PM
As for pros at league nights? O' boy....that would mean they had to be around "bangers" God forbid....they would prob make a 100 doing 5 20$ lessons in 2 hours. but that ain't no money right?.... but more then that giant goose egg they are making now....it's all about image with MOST of them, not all....

Exactly. Go into a room on a league night - try picking one with a team that has a strong local player so that they'll know who you are. That'll get some attention. Build a few fans, get them talking to other people. "Man, XYZ came by last week and was AMAZING! WOW! You should see the things that he/she can do. We stopped counting racks run after 4 or 5 or something. Yeah, I've got a lesson set up for next week."

I've got a non-pool product that I plan on having produced soon. Do I expect the buyers to just show up at my doorstep because I have it? Not a chance. I've got to get it out there, which means getting it in front of potential customers and using that to market it to companies that will buy it for resale.

Lonestar_jim
09-17-2013, 03:42 PM
The BB players making side bets would have been cool and I'm guessing they would have spun that up in the broadcast, but unfortunately the bet would have been to see who shot at the wrong ball first. That seemed to happen way to much showing that they weren't really ready to play the game.

Tramp Steamer
09-17-2013, 04:18 PM
I always thought nude pool playing would be entertaining, at least for a few minutes. :smile:

CJ Wiley
09-17-2013, 07:02 PM
=swami4u;4355050]CJ Willy "You're right of course, up until now pool has lacked that "wow factor".

We intend on changing this scenario because at the end of the day it's not about the game, it's about the characters in the show....it's about entertainment. I seriously doubt if the game being played will end up being more than 20% of the show.....until it catches on.

The general public, from my experience, likes the Underbelly of Pool - the gambling, violence, bar scenes, sex situations, etc all blended into a "Soprano's/Breaking Bad" type cocktail....shaken, not stirred Then, once the interest is developed and the emotional attachment is secure.....they will be enticed by THE GAME....but not until this development phase has been consummated. 'The Game is the Teacher' "

So, in another thread, i read the above, from CJ Wiley. It pretty much sums up what i have felt for years about pool.

Lets dig deeper!

Lets go back to when we were younger. What attracted us to pool? Was it
sitting in a sterile environment, quite as a mouse, for hours at a time, watching two guys run racks? Or was it the whole pool-hall environment, old guys matching up, screaming at each other trying to make a game? Seeing the players with their wads of cash flopping down on the table? Dreaming of nailing the pool room groupie tramp, when we were only 16 yrs old?

Today, the push is too clean up the image of the game. You do that, you lose 100% of what draws in new young players. Lets face it, if your not a pool junkie, you wont ever enjoy sitting hours, still, quite, watching two robots run racks. At 16, most of us couldn't sit still for 10 mins, forget about hours at a time. On the other hand, we could sit and watch for hours if the two players were entertaining, loud, obnoxious, funny, mad, etc etc....This is what draws in the next generation of players.


According to our research the greatest thing pool has going for it is the "dark history" or "Underbelly"...not that people want to see it these days [because they don't] - it really doesn't even exist anymore. The days of gambling on the road and hustling are a thing of the past, but people really like to hear about this lifestyle...but only in a certain way - Pool Hustling must be presented in a systematic format or it will not work. imho

Gambling/Hustling is still the "HOOK" {though} and we are developing a show that will not only be entertaining, but will rocket pool back into the mainstream public. I hope we're not the only ones to do it, I would welcome as much competition as the pool world can muster. I've heard there's others working on a show, I hope they move forward, the more the merrier. ;)

'Competition is the Teacher'

philfrom
09-17-2013, 08:50 PM
Pool was never in the "main stream of the public" and never will be. Most of the people I know got into game because of the individual competition being able to better your friends, to win a small bet once in awhile. The movies " The Hustler" and "the Color of Money" demonstrated this competition and romanticized it. Pool is primarily watched by those that play pool and therefore will never be more then what it is. Television knows this and that's why they don't support it.
STOP dreaming!

CJ Wiley
09-17-2013, 09:51 PM
Pool was never in the "main stream of the public" and never will be. Most of the people I know got into game because of the individual competition being able to better your friends, to win a small bet once in awhile. The movies " The Hustler" and "the Color of Money" demonstrated this competition and romanticized it. Pool is primarily watched by those that play pool and therefore will never be more then what it is. Television knows this and that's why they don't support it.
STOP dreaming!

We'll have to "agree to disagree" on this topic.

Three of the highest grossing restaurant/bar concepts in Texas were Upscale Billiard Clubs called Cool River, FOX & HOUND and Carsons Palace.....between them they've done well over 100 Million is sales.... FOX & HOUND which is a publically traded Upscale Billiard themed restaurant/bar, raised over 80 Million Dollars in it's public offering and was developed by some pool enthusiasts right here in DFW Texas.

If this isn't in the "main stream public" I don't know what is.....these numbers I quoted are public record and I should know, three of them were started by personal friends, partners and myself. Pool could be HUGE if the right people go involved, there's no doubt in my mind....of course they would have to develop the right characters first.

Paul Newman also won an Academy Award for 'The Color of Money'.....so it was certainly watched by the main stream public......to the tune of over 100 Million People world wide.

swami4u
09-17-2013, 10:12 PM
Pool was never in the "main stream of the public" and never will be. Most of the people I know got into game because of the individual competition being able to better your friends, to win a small bet once in awhile. The movies " The Hustler" and "the Color of Money" demonstrated this competition and romanticized it. Pool is primarily watched by those that play pool and therefore will never be more then what it is. Television knows this and that's why they don't support it.
STOP dreaming!

EDIT: CJ please stop reading my mind, i was typing this out while you posted! ! [:

"Paul Newman also won an Academy Award for 'The Color of Money'.....so it was certainly watched by the main stream public......to the tune of over 100 Million People world wide."
__________________


Stop dreaming? And what? Sit around crying about how pool sucks, and do nothing about it? I say never stop dreaming, even if the dream is un-realistic.....If it's your dream, then go get it, if you fail, you should have had fun chasing it! Win win.

O' and BTW total BS on "Pool is primarily watched by those that play pool and therefore will never be more then what it is"

The Color of Money grossed 52mill... the lead actor won the academy award in 1987....It started ALLOT of people playing pool!

Another example A river runs through it. Yea i know its not a pool movie....
But it had a HUGE impact on fly fishing in America...People that watched that movie, ran to the fly shops over night to gear up and give it a try.
I'm willing to bet a buck, not allot of people were thinking about watching or
going fly fishing the day before they saw that movie, but lo' and behold! They were pecker deep in water that next weekend casting away.

MahnaMahna
09-17-2013, 10:36 PM
How did that whole "road trip with pool pros to slang e-cigarettes in pool-halls" thing go for ya?



Eh, at least you got to sell all your marijuana growing equipment on here.

swami4u
09-17-2013, 11:31 PM
How did that whole "road trip with pool pros to slang e-cigarettes in pool-halls" thing go for ya?



Eh, at least you got to sell all your ***marijuana growing equipment***on here.

Went great, sold out the e-cigs around Vegas @ a 2k profit... paid for most of my trip, some practice, and good times, played like crap, but got huge practice in for close too 2 months. The money don't mean crap to me in pool, it's all about the travel, the people you meet, and the good memory's, If i can break even, not work a 9-5, play pool, eat and have a roof over my head, i'm happy. Too bad most won't ever understand that...

Made a few bucks playing low limit games around town. I'm a grinder'

Ready to go again, need to re-stock on the E-cigs....200 a day easy for 4 players....each selling 50 a day....pays for food, gas, and a room....Easy travel money.

The set was for growing herbs and vegetables, ***type like a rat much...***???

CJ Wiley
09-18-2013, 12:19 AM
EDIT: CJ please stop reading my mind, i was typing this out while you posted! ! [:

"Paul Newman also won an Academy Award for 'The Color of Money'.....so it was certainly watched by the main stream public......to the tune of over 100 Million People world wide."
__________________


Stop dreaming? And what? Sit around crying about how pool sucks, and do nothing about it? I say never stop dreaming, even if the dream is un-realistic.....If it's your dream, then go get it, if you fail, you should have had fun chasing it! Win win.

O' and BTW total BS on "Pool is primarily watched by those that play pool and therefore will never be more then what it is"

The Color of Money grossed 52mill... the lead actor won the academy award in 1987....It started ALLOT of people playing pool!

Another example A river runs through it. Yea i know its not a pool movie....
But it had a HUGE impact on fly fishing in America...People that watched that movie, ran to the fly shops over night to gear up and give it a try.
I'm willing to bet a buck, not allot of people were thinking about watching or
going fly fishing the day before they saw that movie, but lo' and behold! They were pecker deep in water that next weekend casting away.


Isn't it funny - Microsoft, the World Wide Web, Apple, Cars, Planes, PGA, NFL, NBA, The Wheel, Pawn Stars, American Idol, Star Wars, Electricity......didn't they all just start out as someone's dream....with someone else meticulously explaining to them how they "couldn't do it," or why it "couldn't be done". :withstupid: ..."History is the Teacher'

swami4u
09-18-2013, 12:36 AM
:withstupid:Isn't it funny - Microsoft, the World Wide Web, Apple, Cars, Planes, PGA, NFL, NBA, The Wheel, Pawn Stars, American Idol, Star Wars, Electricity......didn't they all just start out as someone's dream....with someone else meticulously explaining to them how they "couldn't do it," or why it "couldn't be done". ..."History is the Teacher'

You know what it is, deep rooted insecurity, plus the need for human approval.

"misery loves company" I tend to shy away from that these days. To many good people to sweat the rotten.
"say stupid things to smart people" :withstupid: One of my favorites.

CJ Wiley
09-18-2013, 12:51 AM
:withstupid:

You know what it is, deep rooted insecurity, plus the need for human approval.

"misery loves company" I tend to shy away from that these days. To many good people to sweat the rotten. :withstupid:too :thumbup:

Yeah, you can't fix :withstupid:

I got my first dose of it when my chain fell off my bike...I was like 9 or 10 years old......one of the neighbor "special ed" kids rode by and stopped.....he looked at me, then the chain, then back at me and said "it's no use, it'll never work, give up"......picked his nose, and rode straight into a telephone pole, disappearing into a ditch......:eek: (I hear he's currently doing very well in politics)

I put my chain back on the bike, shook my head in disbelief and peddled home to watch Fats and Mosconi on Wide World of Sports. :groucho:

swami4u
09-18-2013, 07:34 AM
Just watched a few of your web vids' Any of that knowledge your teaching come from hip Jim? FL?

The half ball hit you refer too, seems like "matching up the thickness",which i heard first from him in S fl a 'few years' ago. like over 25...sad but true:D
I think it cost me a couple Heineken's... sound about right? I'm curious, who do you think started teaching that technique first?

pt109
09-18-2013, 08:49 AM
Just watched a few of your web vids' Any of that knowledge your teaching come from hip Jim? FL?

The half ball hit you refer too, seems like "matching up the thickness",which i heard first from him in S fl a 'few years' ago. like over 25...sad but true:D
I think it cost me a couple Heineken's... sound about right? I'm curious, who do you think started teaching that technique first?

The 'black' spot at snooker is actually the 'red' spot from English billiards.
This spot is 12.75 inches from the end rail for a reason...
...from the jaws of the side pocket or the jaws of the closest corner pockets,
it's a perfect 'half-ball' in-off.

So the half-ball concept has been around a long time.

CreeDo
09-18-2013, 09:16 AM
Man, that was long. Let me see if I can get the cliff's notes.

What draws people to pool isn't 2 guys shooting emotionlessly rack after rack, it's characters, woofing and sexy girls
...the stuff we were into when we were 16 years old.

Bonus ball pros had a chance to promote themselves but blew it.

Someone, somewhere, should do something to make the game fun again, and stop being so uptight.
And the pros should stop acting so uptight too.

Pros should play for free or very cheap instead of trying to charge high for lessons.

People who talk about the pros private business and especially any shady stuff they might do,
should knock it off. Doing that stuff is just what Real Men do, and you shouldn't stand in the
way of Men being Men. Also, stop being such nuthuggers. And don't knock their action.

--------------

OK, here are some thoughts.

You could maybe make a show that's 90% fun stuff, sexy girls and funny characters, and only 10% actual pool,
and it might be a big success, as a TV show.
Not as an actual pool match or tournament where players test their skills to see who is better.

Even then, this fun TV show only makes a FEW pro players some money. The rest are SOL.
Sort of like... not every pawn shop owner, ice road trucker, or commercial fisherman gets fat TV paychecks.

Agreed, bonus ball players could have done more to promote it.

The reason pros and fans are "uptight" (translation: not loud) during tournaments is very simple.

There are two main ways a pro player gets paid enough to live on:
1. Someone pays them just for showing up.
2. They win or cash high in a tournament.

Right now, nobody is paying players just to show up. Not even for exhibitions or lessons.
The #30 golfer can invited to the masters and get paid 100k+. The #30 pool player can't.
So that leaves option 2: play their best and win/cash high.

You cannot play top level pool against other pros clowning around.
You have fond memories of guys shooting great while woofing and hollering... that's great.
But those guys aren't Johnny Archer and never will be. If you want Johnny to shoot like Johnny,
or Shane to shoot like Shane, then the other player and spectators need to be quiet and let them focus.

I know that's boring, but right now it's their only option for getting paid.
If you want to take a gamble and write them a check just to show up and be a comedian, you're free to do so.
Believe me, for a reasonable paycheck, any pro player will be HAPPY to just show up & clown around and be entertaining.

How much free golf instruction does Tiger Woods give?
Would you call it buttrape if tiger charged you 50 whole dollars an hour?

I just paid $80/hr for two hours of instruction and it was perfectly fair.
That player has already put free stuff on youtube.
I know there's not much money in pool, but that doesn't mean top players should settle for McDonald's money.

I don't know why you think it matters who talks about what. AZB is just a tiny fraction of the whole world
of pool players. If we talk about Mike D's latest antics or Dennis' O's gambling session, or we say "watch out for this kid
in South Dakota, he can really play strong!" it doesn't really affect anything.

If someone is doing something sleazy, I will talk about it because I think it's sleazy and wrong.
Why shouldn't I? So the sleazy person can make more money? They can get a job like the rest of us.

As far as knocking people with cell phone photos...
the days of the unknown hustler going from town to town robbing people are gone.
Asking people to knock it off, won't change that fact.

Also, good luck asking people to knock it off when it comes to talking about which pro did what.
I'm sure all the celebs on the cover of tabloids wish people would stop revealing their private details,
or photographing them. How's that working out?

elvicash
09-18-2013, 09:45 AM
I agree they should have been in all the pool rooms talking pool and playing BB. They should have been doing charity events in town and promoting BB. They should have tried to get on the radio and in the newspaper on whats going on in Vegas lots of things the players could have done to helped the game succeed. And BB should have tried to schedule around the other mainstream events at least big ones such as Tunica.

Pool is out of sight out of mind for most of the population, it is a participation sport not a viewing sport. If people want pool to be big then the personality have to be big and it has to be int he mind of the viewers. There are people in the world who would like to watch pool they don' know it yet but they would they just need it presented to them in the right way then when it has watchers it is a vehicle for advertising. Right now pool is pretty dead for non pool money.

This catch 22 of no value for sponsors thus no money into the sport is a real problem and the players who are going to be winners of pool taking off will have to be a major part of turning it around and this is much more than just running 5 racks of 9 ball the easiest way possible. This is the work in front of a group of players whoever they are that want pool to be a mainstream sport. I hope to see it in my lifetime. I will buy the season ticket when it is available.




CJ Willy "You're right of course, up until now pool has lacked that "wow factor".

We intend on changing this scenario because at the end of the day it's not about the game, it's about the characters in the show....it's about entertainment. I seriously doubt if the game being played will end up being more than 20% of the show.....until it catches on.

The general public, from my experience, likes the Underbelly of Pool - the gambling, violence, bar scenes, sex situations, etc all blended into a "Soprano's/Breaking Bad" type cocktail....shaken, not stirred Then, once the interest is developed and the emotional attachment is secure.....they will be enticed by THE GAME....but not until this development phase has been consummated. 'The Game is the Teacher' "

So, in another thread, i read the above, from CJ Wiley. It pretty much sums up what i have felt for years about pool.


Today, the push is too clean up the image of the game. You do that, you lose 100% of what draws in new young players. Lets face it, if your not a pool junkie, you wont ever enjoy sitting hours, still, quite, watching two robots run racks. At 16, most of us couldn't sit still for 10 mins, forget about hours at a time. On the other hand, we could sit and watch for hours if the two players were entertaining, loud, obnoxious, funny, mad, etc etc....This is what draws in the next generation of players.

Shame on MOST of the Pros Recent example: Bonus Ball.....

Event in Las Vegas, all the "pros" in the world in one spot, for 6+ months!
Should have been a dam Circus in Vegas!
Let me tell you how it was.....

A ghost town, a few touring pros around town early (good for you) and the rest arrived the day the money was flowing (as planned) and left the day the money stopped. Then afterwards, cry cry about how it didn't work out. You
were paid to PROMOTE the game. I saw 6 touring pros' in 2 different states. NOT ONE mention of Bonus Ball from any of them. It was like a dam secret.

When i drove to Vegas, i stopped in 4 pool halls'.
How in the world can most people, not all in a pool hall, not know the best players in the world are arriving in Vegas, for 6 months!?? 2 months before it happened?

When i did see the few pro's match up and play in Vegas, the rail was good' people wanting to watch. Pro player in...plays game.....pro player out...not a peep to anyone about anything! Way to earn your money PROMOTING a game! Your fault the thing didn't work. You were getting paid for PROMOTING the game, and most of them didn't do jack, except arrive for the hand out.


Someone gave the best players in the world a tool to make money, and the Pros dropped the ball. They don't have any clue how to promote a game....
Only thing they know is easy money' on a handout. And how to run out 5 racks of 9 ball, the most BORING way possible...

Every Pro that was going to get paid to promote a game should have been carrying a set of bouns balls' and playing with every person that wanted to try. Every pro should have been in Vegas a month+ early, creating action and buzz for the new game....

Every Pro should have been on this site' promoting the game/talking with the casual players all day and night......

Teams should have made side bets with each other, to add a element of fun to the game. In a public forum, like this one. Just a example, team that loses a match has to wear pink wigs in the next match...How many would pay for a stream, if you got to see Earl Strickland in a pink wig? Just a example, far out i know, but you should get the point! Make the game fun again, remove stick from back side....Think up crazy fun ways to remove the boring....grow an imagination...

Just like CJ said, the FIRST DRAW of a new pool player is the character/odd personalities of pool players....then the bug bites, and the rest falls into place. Without that, you have a boring, generic game, that appeals to zero young people......or anyone really, except us, the addicted to pool crowd.

What good are your trophies now...collecting dust? The typical Pro today is a boring person, not a bit of fun, stone faced, over serious, click monger. Fact...they feed on people swinging off the "church bells"
Yea, they run balls well, and put asleep 99% of the human population doing it. Then act shocked about why pool is not taking off in the US, wake up call....Your BORING!

So IMHO, bring back the strange, unique, non typical personality. Bring back the fun, the odd! Stick a bomb in the tail end of the clickster' pro....let the players be players, stop requiring them to act like alter boys and girls...

The Pros need to stop worrying so much what people say and think, a player is a walking circus, fun fun fun, action action action. I have seen this, for many years. When the MIZ walked into a pool room, that was slow and quite most of the time, it turned into a circus environment. Action, jokes, laughs, and most important, something everyone could get involved with. Many of the great true players had this, today, not so much.....

So, take the stick out of your tail end, and try to make the game fun again...

You want pool to attract people,then start doing something that makes them want to watch. If they are around the event, do something that allows them to be involved. You have nothing going on, start a dam 1.00 game and tell every weak player in the joint to line up. Kick that tail, for a 1.00 a game all night, keep emm' smiling and having a good time, and see how many come back the next night to do it again....How about a free lesson for 20mins of your life, to keep one? Too much to ask, then live broke?
Nah' try to run right up in them for 50 a hour...lets see how many times they come back for that..... It's a very simple fix, if you have a clue.



Final note: I have 100% respect for the new players that live the game.....I just don't think they have been taught to promote it right. They just need to listen more to people that have a clue.......they need to get into a big room, and hash it out. But that can't happen, they could not organize a money cutting party. Bonus ball was that, if they worked it right....

i have 0 respect for people that hang off the nut' of players. Your a dam groupie.....and to make matters worse, you stick your nose into games that have nothing to do with you. You help kill the game for people trying to live it right. Congratz' you have just about done it!

Everyone that loves the game of pool can do something a little different. But if the old school players don't start stepping up and explaining this to the new generation of player, then its going to continue to fall'



educate new players, players.....

That should give em' something to talk about!

CJ Wiley
09-18-2013, 01:08 PM
Just watched a few of your web vids' Any of that knowledge your teaching come from hip Jim? FL?

The half ball hit you refer too, seems like "matching up the thickness",which i heard first from him in S fl a 'few years' ago. like over 25...sad but true:D
I think it cost me a couple Heineken's... sound about right? I'm curious, who do you think started teaching that technique first?

No, I was around Jimmy, but never shared any information, although I think he knows a lot about the game.

My mentors were Dalton Leong, Omaha John, Vernon Elliot, JR Weldon, Wade Crane, and I picked up a lot from playing the world's greatest gamblers. There's nothing like "hands on training" on the road to "real eyes" what works and what just "looks good on paper"......there's a world of difference in my world, it used to be the difference between Steak Dinner, a roof over our head and ....well, we never had to see that, thank goodness. ;) 'The Game was our Teacher'

swami4u
09-18-2013, 04:24 PM
Man, that was long. Let me see if I can get the cliff's notes.

What draws people to pool isn't 2 guys shooting emotionlessly rack after rack, it's characters, woofing and sexy girls
...the stuff we were into when we were 16 years old.

Bonus ball pros had a chance to promote themselves but blew it.

Someone, somewhere, should do something to make the game fun again, and stop being so uptight.
And the pros should stop acting so uptight too.

Pros should play for free or very cheap instead of trying to charge high for lessons.

People who talk about the pros private business and especially any shady stuff they might do,
should knock it off. Doing that stuff is just what Real Men do, and you shouldn't stand in the
way of Men being Men. Also, stop being such nuthuggers. And don't knock their action.



Yea, that's what i said.....I cant even muster the will to reply to someone that takes my ideas, re-writes them, then troll's a debate over it. Sorry.

Tramp Steamer
09-18-2013, 06:43 PM
[QUOTE=CJ Wiley;4355546
Paul Newman also won an Academy Award for 'The Color of Money'.....so it was certainly watched by the main stream public......to the tune of over 100 Million People world wide.[/QUOTE]


Mr. Newman won that award, not because of his stellar performance (which it wasn't), but rather for not having won an Oscar up to that point. The Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences figured he was running out of time so they gave him a pass. :smile:

CJ Wiley
09-18-2013, 07:00 PM
Mr. Newman won that award, not because of his stellar performance (which it wasn't), but rather for not having won an Oscar up to that point. The Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences figured he was running out of time so they gave him a pass. :smile:

The subject of my post you're responding to was "if" pool had been in the mainstream public before...are you saying that the Academy Awards that particular year didn't reach the "mainstream stream" public? Popularity does have an influence on who wins, and Paul Newman was one of the most popular actors of any generation according to critics.

The movie came out in 1986 which was the year I won the World Series of Tavern Pool in Las Vegas so I had a pretty good vantage point.....and I must say it had a dramatic effect on billiards, billiard rooms and product sales which was a direct reflection of mass approval and interest in the game.

plane_o
09-18-2013, 11:40 PM
Thanks for the great videos of Fats....Ran into Fats at the Music City Open in the 80's. Kept us laughing for several hours...

(((Satori)))
09-18-2013, 11:55 PM
.......................

CreeDo
09-19-2013, 09:58 AM
Yea, that's what i said.....I cant even muster the will to reply to someone that takes my ideas, re-writes them, then troll's a debate over it. Sorry.

See, that's really weak. Someone disagrees with you, so you call them a troll.
Maybe you just lack the tools needed to have a civilized debate, and you were just looking
for a bunch of dudes to say "I totally agree with everything you said! You're so smart!!!!"

Well, for the record, I'm not attacking you personally, I just
gave you my honest opinion about what I thought about your post.
I even agree with some of what you said, like the players not promoting bonus ball.

Sorry if it came off like I was giving you shit. I just think your idea of what pool should
be is out of touch and old fashioned. It's not realistic to think if we all just change our attitudes,
pool will be like it was in the 80's or something.
We're never going to turn pool tournaments into a scene from The Baltimore Bullet.

CJ Wiley
09-19-2013, 12:12 PM
See, that's really weak. Someone disagrees with you, so you call them a troll.
Maybe you just lack the tools needed to have a civilized debate, and you were just looking
for a bunch of dudes to say "I totally agree with everything you said! You're so smart!!!!"

Well, for the record, I'm not attacking you personally, I just
gave you my honest opinion about what I thought about your post.
I even agree with some of what you said, like the players not promoting bonus ball.

Sorry if it came off like I was giving you shit. I just think your idea of what pool should
be is out of touch and old fashioned. It's not realistic to think if we all just change our attitudes,
pool will be like it was in the 80's or something.
We're never going to turn pool tournaments into a scene from The Baltimore Bullet.

Pool wasn't that great in the "80's" until after 'The Color of Money' (in 86) and even then it took a few years to reach it's pinnacle in popularity. ESPN was the key, when you have, at that time over 60 Million (now there's over 110 Million) sports fans tuned in a percentage will watch pool.

At that time we were attracting over a Million viewers per show ON THE AVERAGE. This is because ESPN is part of our culture and it's in virtually every sports-bar, club, country club, restaurant, pool room, not to mention millions of homes nationwide.

Was this because they were pool players? Absolutely not, but from historic statistics 2% of them would gain interest to play the game and even buy products. 2% of a Million is 2000 people per show would be motivated to a course of action.

Now we have streaming video reaching 600 people that already play pool and only 2% of them will be motivated to action......that's 12 people per show.

This is "the difference that makes the difference" in pocket billiards current unpopularity .....it's down over 40% since we had the shows on ESPN, is this a coincidence? Maybe, maybe not, although it makes a strong case for promoting pool on TV again.

There's a time and a place for streaming video shows, and it's to enhance and synergistically assist the TV Broadcasts. There a variety of ways to do this, and without attracting those 2000 new people in regularly none of it makes much of a difference. 'The Game is the Teacher'

swami4u
09-19-2013, 03:13 PM
See, that's really weak. Someone disagrees with you, so you call them a troll.
Maybe you just lack the tools needed to have a civilized debate, and you were just looking
for a bunch of dudes to say "I totally agree with everything you said! You're so smart!!!!"

Well, for the record, I'm not attacking you personally, I just
gave you my honest opinion about what I thought about your post.
I even agree with some of what you said, like the players not promoting bonus ball.

Sorry if it came off like I was giving you shit. I just think your idea of what pool should
be is out of touch and old fashioned. It's not realistic to think if we all just change our attitudes,
pool will be like it was in the 80's or something.
We're never going to turn pool tournaments into a scene from The Baltimore Bullet.

It's all good, my apologizes, maybe troll was a little over stated. You did switch some of my words around, that gave a different message then i was attending.

I'm not even saying lets make pool like the Balt. Bullet. I respect and try to deliver a gentleman game always. Unless i'm just hitting balls around for fun (most of the time) then i will hit clown mode, having fun.....

Above is my point, these players don't need to be so serious all the time, mix of both, a world class tourn. needs structure. But when the pressure cooker is set to low, let down the dam hair a little, involve all casual players, make it seem like the old school pool. Fun, cheap action, etc etc.. for all...This will increase the game, because people like myself that have zero chance of ever playing on the pro tour can be involved having fun most of the time. This disconnect between pros and the casual apa type player, is big & bad today, IMHO. That's where the trimmings are, for a pro that wants to eat between tourn/games.....I don't think most (not all) understand this, yet.

In simple terms, play the tourn/money games like they do today. When not playing serious pool, learn to go into a place and generate a buzz.

one for you one for me....
two for you two for me....

If most of the touring pros would learn this simple thing.....they would create action, make side money, and be able to eat/travel between matches.

How many pros that travel allot do you see carrying something they can sell to supplement their income? If i decide to travel, i make 50-100 a day
selling e-cigs. If i break them out in about any full pool hall in the U.S.
with owners permission, it's a 100 or close each time. Some would scream that ain't no money! Well yes it is if you make 400-500 a week. It pays hotel,
food, and some gas, for a week. If you play like a true pro, then your making 100-200 a night playing local events, lessons, cheap action games, etc etc..some nights more some less, averages work out....

So for a true pro, lets say 700 a week total. Playing 7 days a week...

Benefits of 700 a week: Playing pool all they want, no 9-5 job, meeting people all over the US, a chance at bigger action, sometimes.....How many people work their butts off to clear 700 a week, and miserable while doing it? Seeing the US by car/rv! Spend a dam day begin a tourist, have some fun, they are so addicted to pool, they cant be happy doing anything else...most not all...they burn out, and forget to have fun...

If i hear a PRO saying there is no money on the road/tour i say that person
doesn't respect how well they have it...or cant put anything together besides a few racks...

If i meet a Pro that tours non stop, and can't figure out a way to clear 700 a week, to keep him around the action full time, i say he plays good pool for sure, but is a real nit wit......

Get 4 pros.....put them in a RV (like bands have done it for years)
all 4 can sell a product (pool related or not) all 4 can give lessons,
all 4 can win any tourn. at any time, all 4 can beat just about anyone on a given day, if those 4 cant clear 1k a week, i say, they are all nit wits too!
If they have a RV, and cant be happy on 1k a week, for expenses, food and gas, to be around action 24/7, super nit wits!

If they cry about how they aren't (can't) making that big score, they want to live in the Hilton all the time, eat lobster & steak, and have 20k on them, then by all means quit, go fill out a resume with all your pool experience, get that 12.00 hour full time job and let me know how that works out for you in a year.......Maybe they don't love the game as much as people think?

If they did love the game, living comfortable, eating okay, having a bed in a RV, meeting people, seeing the whole US 10 times over, would be enough too hold a person a long time? And that few hun' a week would seem like a million, knowing they didn't have too go work 9-5 for some jack azz' boss?

Most of them have the chance at a very good thing with the skills they have. But most have never been taught how to manage, and have not been taught gratitude. Just about a impossible message to convey. But some still try!

I myself can't run 2 racks, right, of 9 ball, true story..i know this. But in 20 years, i have driven east to west, 10 round trips...

I have played pool in 48 states

I have met and talked and practiced with some of the best players in history.

I have camped, fly fished, climbed mountains, stayed in the inner city's areas, the deep south, met and learned from all cultures around the US.
Scuba diving, deep sea fishing etc etc.. all off 500-700 a week....
Never went hungry once...Always a way to make some cash, if your not a nit wit. lazy, or dumb



If a guy that loves pool, the history, the people, travel, but can't string 2 racks together, can do it, have fun, and crave to do it all again another 20+ years, but a pro says he can't, with all that extra skill... sorry, great shooter, but none the less, nit wit.....

See, its not ALL about the money, if i eat, stay dry, safe, and get to play lots of pool, meet lots of people, see lots of new things, do lots of new things, and break even over a year or even if it cost me some a year...did i win? I think so....Not the norm' way of thinking it.....for sure....most aren't cut out for it.
They aren't grateful for the gift they have, and lacking the brain to work it. Sure, good ball runners....






:D

Just my 2 cents. IMHO

Lonestar_jim
09-19-2013, 04:45 PM
Sounds like Swami4u knows how to rub 2 sticks together and make fire.:)

You must have a hook before you can be certain of some of your numbers. A lot of the places where I play doesn't contain the people that would recognize a pro player in the first place, lest it be J.L. or? ?? Maybe Fats who won't be making the trip.

A lot of the pros must remain in one place to maintain their homes and I'm certain they book travel early in order to save $. They are very busy traveling at times so they really can't hit the road.

As for what CJ said about streaming broadcasts and synergism. Currently TV is not in the picture, so lets be real...all you have is streaming. Thanks Bigtruck, Pat Fleming, POV, et. al.

Sent from my SCH-M828C using Tapatalk 2

swami4u
09-19-2013, 06:24 PM
Sounds like Swami4u knows how to rub 2 sticks together and make fire.:)

You must have a hook before you can be certain of some of your numbers. A lot of the places where I play doesn't contain the people that would recognize a pro player in the first place, lest it be J.L. or? ?? Maybe Fats who won't be making the trip.

A lot of the pros must remain in one place to maintain their homes and I'm certain they book travel early in order to save $. They are very busy traveling at times so they really can't hit the road.

As for what CJ said about streaming broadcasts and synergism. Currently TV is not in the picture, so lets be real...all you have is streaming. Thanks Bigtruck, Pat Fleming, POV, et. al.

Sent from my SCH-M828C using Tapatalk 2


Fair point, then sadly, a traveling pro group would not stick a dart into the map, next time around, for a place like that. Way too many other places to visit. You learn after the first round trip, where you can make money and cant. So your right, some places will be a waste of money. On the other hand, Some places you go without high hopes could be a goldmine.

Come's down to definition of 'pro' i guess? I would imagine, every true young pro would love to be so busy traveling around, they don't have time to have a house etc etc. I think that type of good life is reserved for the retired pro.

TV is in the picture.....just need too get a new crop of young hot shot pros with enough personality to make the causal player want to watch without falling asleep. Think of a whole new cross breed, of young stars.... Call that breed Strickland's :D

There is a reason why he is loved and hated......He is good for pool, like him or not. His antic's keep people tuned in. Need many more like that, i believe.

CreeDo
09-20-2013, 08:56 AM
No worries swami, I coulda rephrased some things. Sorry. I think you have a point.

I actually don't mind the dead nuts serious quiet atmosphere, usually it's a good thing.
That's how it is in some other spots. During shots in golf or darts you can hear a pin drop
and every competitor has full game face on, zero talking.
But BETWEEN shots, people are allowed to cheer and whistle and have fun, and that makes a difference.

Sort of like the Mosconi Cup. Michaela Tabb shushes everyone, then after the shot lets them go nuts.

But to really get some emotion out of the players they must care a lot about the outcome.
So we come back to money, they won't jump up and down + cry for a $1,000 payday.
But for $50,000+ you might see even Thorsten burst into tears :)

I dunno if they'll ever play like they're just having fun, but with that 700 a week paycheck maybe they can
because there's not so much stress about their bank account. I dunno if it's normal for someone
to do $100 (is that all profit??) in sales every day, 5 days a week, and it's not even their main job.
You might just be really good at sales and the average pro might not clear 20 bucks.

CJ Wiley
09-20-2013, 01:34 PM
No worries swami, I coulda rephrased some things. Sorry. I think you have a point.

I actually don't mind the dead nuts serious quiet atmosphere, usually it's a good thing.
That's how it is in some other spots. During shots in golf or darts you can hear a pin drop
and every competitor has full game face on, zero talking.
But BETWEEN shots, people are allowed to cheer and whistle and have fun, and that makes a difference.

Sort of like the Mosconi Cup. Michaela Tabb shushes everyone, then after the shot lets them go nuts.

But to really get some emotion out of the players they must care a lot about the outcome.
So we come back to money, they won't jump up and down + cry for a $1,000 payday.
But for $50,000+ you might see even Thorsten burst into tears :)

I dunno if they'll ever play like they're just having fun, but with that 700 a week paycheck maybe they can
because there's not so much stress about their bank account. I dunno if it's normal for someone
to do $100 (is that all profit??) in sales every day, 5 days a week, and it's not even their main job.
You might just be really good at sales and the average pro might not clear 20 bucks.

Earl said "real men" NEVER cry after a pocket billiard tournament victory....no matter how much money's involved. :groucho: I saw him win a million and he didn't cry so it's certainly true for him. :yeah:

swami4u
09-20-2013, 02:52 PM
Earl said "real men" NEVER cry after a pocket billiard tournament victory....no matter how much money's involved. :groucho: I saw him win a million and he didn't cry so it's certainly true for him. :yeah:

I heard allot of different story's about that million, did he ever get that money?
Camel right?

CJ Wiley
09-20-2013, 08:28 PM
I heard allot of different story's about that million, did he ever get that money?
Camel right?

Yes, we won the law suit and he got paid after 2.5 years.....and no, it had nothing to do with Camel.....it was the Professional Cue Sports Association and the million was over 20 years with a cash value of $630,000.

We're doing a documentary about this event right now and it will be out in mid November for everyone to see the last 5 racks run and the "behind the scenes" story.