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Johnnyt
01-11-2014, 01:40 AM
I donít know why so many on here and in the poolrooms get so upset with themselves because they canít run 100+ in 14.1, 4 or 5 racks of 9 ball in a few years in such an easy game as pool. Pool is not easy. IMO pool is one of the hardest games to become a top player in. There are so many things you need to know and be able to do perfectly compared to most other sports and games. This is one thing Iíll never understand about pool. Most people seem to think pool should be a piece of cake to get good at in a very short time, and that is the farthest thing from the truth. Just getting the basics down perfectly takes a lot of time and practice. Iíve played and watched just about every major and semi-major sport and can not think of one that you have to do so many things perfectly right. Johnnyt

(((Satori)))
01-11-2014, 01:52 AM
Is it really though?

Strike the cue ball 1) in the right place 2) on the right line 3) at the right speed and you have it made.

Compare that to a sport like Supercross and see how it stacks up. In pool there's not even any threat of physical injury if your speed is off not so when you are coming up on a triple jump.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RwBOB5CdrY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

King T
01-11-2014, 02:04 AM
Its just the male, testosterone thing. We all want to look good around our boys, we all want to be at the head of the class, the leader of the pack..., at least respected among the group and in pool it means getting out, running out, never dogging it...,

Well it just aint so, not with this game. As you said, there is nothing easy about this game no matter how easy Cliff Joyner makes One Pocket look or SVB makes the break look, it aint easy!

Love this game, but its tuff!

JustPlay
01-11-2014, 02:41 AM
What other games are you comparing pool too? What do deem a "comparable" game?

Pool is an easy game to play. Just about anyone can get good the game in a short period of time. You are correct to be the best/top player/pro lots of time has to be dedicated to perfecting the game. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it a few years ago a 16 year old kid won the world 9 ball championships? how much time did he play to get that good?

Johnnyt
01-11-2014, 04:32 AM
What other games are you comparing pool too? What do deem a "comparable" game?

Pool is an easy game to play. Just about anyone can get good the game in a short period of time. You are correct to be the best/top player/pro lots of time has to be dedicated to perfecting the game. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it a few years ago a 16 year old kid won the world 9 ball championships? how much time did he play to get that good?

Wu is one in a million and natural talent bigtime. Johnnyt

BeiberLvr
01-11-2014, 04:43 AM
No such thing as a natural talent in pool. Nobody just picks up a cue and starts running out. Sure, some people learn faster and retain information better than others, but that doesn't mean they have a pool gene.

Pool is not tough. It just takes time and dedication. For some, less than others.

Johnnyt
01-11-2014, 05:41 AM
No such thing as a natural talent in pool. Nobody just picks up a cue and starts running out. Sure, some people learn faster and retain information better than others, but that doesn't mean they have a pool gene.

Pool is not tough. It just takes time and dedication. For some, less than others.


Definition: Natural talent is an innate or inborn gift for a specific activity, either allowing one to demonstrate some immediate skill without practice, or to gain skill rapidly with minimal practice.



By this definition, the key advantage of natural talent is that it allows the individual a steep learning curve, whereby he or she acquires skills readily with less practice or hard work than the average person. As well as the advantage of learning quickly, natural talent is also said to increase oneís maximum potential. This implies that each individual has a ceiling that caps the highest level of performance they can attain, no matter how hard or long they train. For gifted performers, this ceiling is said to be higher

one stroke
01-11-2014, 06:25 AM
Kids can learn to play at a high level in pool faster than any other sport bar none



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SJDinPHX
01-11-2014, 06:25 AM
Wu is one in a million and natural talent bigtime. Johnnyt

You're right Johnny, except I'd say more like one in fifty million !.. As for comparing the difficulty of learning top level pool, to doing a triple flip on a motor bike...No comparison !..The biker would lack the brain cells, to even become a 'C' player..Risking your body or your life to learn something like that is NOT a challenge, it is pure stupidity ! :rolleyes:

PS..In his prime, thousands of guys tried to beat Efren...How many succeeded ?

313305

(((Satori)))
01-11-2014, 06:29 AM
You're right Johnny, except I'd say more like one in fifty million !.. As for comparing the difficulty of learning top level pool, to doing a triple flip on a motor bike...No comparison !..The biker would lack the brain cells, to even become a 'C' player..Risking your body or your life to learn something like that is NOT a challenge, it is pure stupidity ! :rolleyes:

313305

You have shown your ignorance.

SJDinPHX
01-11-2014, 06:47 AM
You have shown your ignorance.


Please explain how and where ? :confused:

(((Satori)))
01-11-2014, 06:56 AM
Please explain how and where ? :confused:

Can you name the first guy to do a triple flip on a bike?

j_zippel
01-11-2014, 07:03 AM
Can you name the first guy to do a triple flip on a bike?

this is getting silly now.. Let me guess, you ride dirtbikes

SJDinPHX
01-11-2014, 07:09 AM
this is getting silly now.. Let me guess, you ride dirtbikes

Exactly what I was thinking !..I can't even name ANYBODY who rode a dirt bike...Am I on the wrong forum ? :confused:

(((Satori)))
01-11-2014, 07:10 AM
this is getting silly now.. Let me guess, you ride dirtbikes

What is silly is SJDINPHX talking about the stupidity of the riders doing triple flips. It shows his ignorance.

SJDinPHX
01-11-2014, 07:25 AM
What is silly is SJDINPHX talking about the stupidity of the riders doing triple flips. It shows his ignorance.

OK, you win..I am ignorant..I know when I am 'outsmarted' ! :sorry:

313314

desi2960
01-11-2014, 07:26 AM
but i played in a league for 7 years with a guy that was drafted by the dogers. he got hurt and never made it big time, but he's a pretty sharp pool player. he says that putting a bat on a 100 mile an hr fast ball is harder that any shot on the table.

(((Satori)))
01-11-2014, 07:36 AM
OK, you win..I am ignorant..I know when I am 'outsmarted' ! :sorry:

313314

You never had an argument to begin with. You were just ignorant and that's a fact, but I guess that wouldn't stop someone like you from trying to argue anyway.

I wasn't arguing though. I was just pointing out your ignorance and now I'll move on.

Island Drive
01-11-2014, 07:39 AM
Is it really though?

Strike the cue ball 1) in the right place 2) on the right line 3) at the right speed and you have it made.

Compare that to a sport like Supercross and see how it stacks up. In pool there's not even any threat of physical injury if your speed is off not so when you are coming up on a triple jump.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RwBOB5CdrY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Your comparison made me wonder how Mike Bells racing career improved after the late seventies. Ya think he's still racing and winning like Efren did in his fifties?

ChicagoRJ
01-11-2014, 07:43 AM
Sorry folks. Pool is not even in the top 50 sports of difficulty. Number one belongs to baseball according to an extensive research by Sports Illustrated. The hand eye coordination and the speed to actually hit a 90 MPH slider is ungodly.

The human eye can't even track the baseball for the last 5 feet, and thus why the pitchers with balls the break the latest, pitch the best.

I believe pool was rated just about fishing in terms of difficulty, but way below cheerleading.

Now, that is not a knock on pool, it takes a lot of time to be great at anything. But how many 19 year old pitchers can compete against the BEST hitters in the game. There is a reason why they throw $100 million dollar contract around the MLB like they are nickels, cause there are only some many folks that can play at that level.

Same with football. There are only some many folks that can play QB in the NFL, even most of the best college QB's fail in the NFL.

Heck, even Earl Strickland knows it takes more skill to play gold and tennis than pool, and he happens to be pretty good at both of them...

Island Drive
01-11-2014, 07:47 AM
I donít know why so many on here and in the poolrooms get so upset with themselves because they canít run 100+ in 14.1, 4 or 5 racks of 9 ball in a few years in such an easy game as pool. Pool is not easy. IMO pool is one of the hardest games to become a top player in. There are so many things you need to know and be able to do perfectly compared to most other sports and games. This is one thing Iíll never understand about pool. Most people seem to think pool should be a piece of cake to get good at in a very short time, and that is the farthest thing from the truth. Just getting the basics down perfectly takes a lot of time and practice. Iíve played and watched just about every major and semi-major sport and can not think of one that you have to do so many things perfectly right. Johnnyt

Actually JT its Theeeeeeee hardest, game of all because we deal with such finite amounts All the time. It's one of the main reasons most don't keep at it, plus, as I've said before :grin-square: pool is Waaaaaaaaay to difficult for the average mind, they don't have the patience, or the time or willingness to learn, because its takes allot of work. Most real pool players have a mindset that's no different than an artist or a musician, Mad Max is a good example of ones ''artistic'' mind.

(((Satori)))
01-11-2014, 07:51 AM
Your comparison made me wonder how Mike Bells racing career improved after the late seventies. Ya think he's still racing and winning like Efren did in his fifties?

That is a great point. Can pool be considered one of the toughest sports if men can be competitive in their senior years?

It's not easy to reach an elite level of any activity but to use that as a reason to claim that pool is one of the hardest sports is incorrect.

Black-Balled
01-11-2014, 07:57 AM
You never had an argument to begin with. You were just ignorant and that's a fact, but I guess that wouldn't stop someone like you from trying to argue anyway.

I wasn't arguing though. I was just pointing out your ignorance and now I'll move on.

But you did go half tilt on the man for his 'triple flip' comment. I think he prob knows an actual triple flip has not been done. It was overstatement, a common type of written and spoken communication, used to reinforce one's point. Not as effective as intended, obviously, but easily recognized.

His point, as I took it, is that the dangers associated with freestyle riding make it inherently dangerous, therefore meaning harder, in his opinion.

Not sure I agree with the premise, but I think I can follow the reasoning.

In response to the freestyle's difficulty, those guys did not wake up yesterday and decide the wanted to do that stuff.

(((Satori)))
01-11-2014, 08:04 AM
But you did go half tilt on the man for his 'triple flip' comment. I think he prob knows an actual triple flip has not been done. It was overstatement, a common type of written and spoken communication, used to reinforce one's point. Not as effective as intended, obviously, but easily recognized.

His point, as I took it, is that the dangers associated with freestyle riding make it inherently dangerous, therefore meaning harder, in his opinion.

Not sure I agree with the premise, but I think I can follow the reasoning.

In response to the freestyle's difficulty, those guys did not wake up yesterday and decide the wanted to do that stuff.

I don't think he knows that or that I wasn't even referring to freestyle motocross in the first place. I think he simply wanted to say that anyone who competes in a dangerous sport is stupid and they lack the ability to play good pool.

Another ignorant remark imo.

SeabrookMiglla
01-11-2014, 08:12 AM
i dont think pool is hard to win a game at, but to win at it consistently for long periods of time is difficult. to keep up a high level of play requires a lot of practice and fine tuning.

one stroke
01-11-2014, 08:16 AM
But you did go half tilt on the man for his 'triple flip' comment. I think he prob knows an actual triple flip has not been done. It was overstatement, a common type of written and spoken communication, used to reinforce one's point. Not as effective as intended, obviously, but easily recognized.

His point, as I took it, is that the dangers associated with freestyle riding make it inherently dangerous, therefore meaning harder, in his opinion.

Not sure I agree with the premise, but I think I can follow the reasoning.

In response to the freestyle's difficulty, those guys did not wake up yesterday and decide the wanted to do that stuff.

Dare devil sports requires a totally different mind set than 99% of all other sports it should not even be compared in this argument
It's really in a class of its own because it does not require athletic ability its strictly hand eye ..people would like to compare it to golf but its not even in the same planet as golf
Maybe lawn golf :embarrassed2::cool:


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ChicagoRJ
01-11-2014, 08:20 AM
Actually JT its Theeeeeeee hardest, game of all because we deal with such finite amounts All the time. It's one of the main reasons most don't keep at it, plus, as I've said before :grin-square: pool is Waaaaaaaaay to difficult for the average mind, they don't have the patience, or the time or willingness to learn, because its takes allot of work. Most real pool players have a mindset that's no different than an artist or a musician, Mad Max is a good example of ones ''artistic'' mind.

lol. that's just plain silly. Actually, most don't keep up with baseball, football, and hockey, because of the difficulty level. Any teenagers playing pro ball?

Heck, you could take SVB and train him with the best baseball coaches on the planet, and he is still is not hitting a 95 splitter or slider, or striking out Miguel Cabrera... He would not even make our local HS team with a year of professional training.

But I bet I can teach Cal Ripken to run a few racks.... You think there is a reason why pool players play for peanuts, and baseball, football, and hockey and golf play for MILLIONS. If Earl could play pro tennis, he'd give up pool in a heart beat.

boogeyman
01-11-2014, 08:30 AM
[QUOTE=Johnnyt;4538111]Definition: Natural talent is an innate or inborn gift for a specific activity, either allowing one to demonstrate some immediate skill without practice, or to gain skill rapidly with minimal practice.

I like your definition, Johnnyt.
I believe pool (or any other endeavor) is only difficult for those that don't have innate eye-hand coordination (that's most people).
For most top level pros they obtained one or the other of what Johnnyt describes above in bold.

If you ask any top-tier pro if the game is easy they will most likely say 'yes."
That's because to them the game IS easy.
He or she can control the cue ball naturally well (eye-hand coordination),
they have good alignment from the start (s/he found his or her own natural vision center from the start),
and they have a desire to take these two attributes and improve.

It's no secret about getting good at something.
Yes, it does take A LOT of practice to become an expert at something,
but if one has natural ability then the countenance of that "something" becomes friendlier (and easier).

(((Satori)))
01-11-2014, 08:30 AM
Dare devil sports requires a totally different mind set than 99% of all other sports it should not even be compared in this argument
It's really in a class of its own because it does not require athletic ability its strictly hand eye ..people would like to compare it to golf but its not even in the same planet as golf
Maybe lawn golf :embarrassed2::cool:


1

If you could somehow take the danger out of supercross it is still a tougher sport than pool. It's tougher to learn, it's physically more demanding, and the difficulty of achieving an elite level is not even close.

JoeW
01-11-2014, 08:32 AM
I was a competition diver as a kid, even won a few titles. I have played tennis and golf reasonably well. Of all the sports I have played, pool is by far the most difficult and the most enjoyable. Pool requires exquisite control of mind and body that other sports do not require.

Diving (my favorite sport after pool) requires control of the body's fine and gross motor skills. Once mastered it is matter of muscle memory. With pool the subconscious mind and its ability to control fine motor skills must be mastered, an extremely difficult task more on the order of eastern meditational philosophies.

I do not know what the most difficult sports would be, high diving, which I did for years, requires motor control and mastery of fear, not much more. Pool may or may not be the most difficult sport but it definitely up near the top.

JoeW
01-11-2014, 08:40 AM
Sports like football and baseball have been commercialized. They have mass appeal because they have sponsors making money. A one hour football game requires four hours of television time (three hours of commercials).

Someone told me that baseball is one of the few games without a clock. Theoretically a baseball game could last forever, plenty of time for commercials.

I am 70 years old and took up baseball six months ago. It is not difficult and in fact I find it boring and will be quitting the team soon. Of course old men's slow pitch softball is not comparable to pro baseball. The principles are the same, natural skill and muscle memory, that's all.

j_zippel
01-11-2014, 08:46 AM
What is silly is SJDINPHX talking about the stupidity of the riders doing triple flips. It shows his ignorance.

Probably the only guy doing that could do a triple flip on a bike is Travis Pastrana, and he probably sucks at playing pool. I agree, comparing to "dirt biking"
makes me squint and shake my head with a confused look on my face.

j_zippel
01-11-2014, 08:51 AM
At the end of the day, Pool is definately not the most difficult 'sport'

(((Satori)))
01-11-2014, 08:53 AM
Probably the only guy doing that could do a triple flip on a bike is Travis Pastrana, and he probably sucks at playing pool. I agree, comparing to "dirt biking" is makes me squint and shake my head with a confused look on my face.

Pestrana has excelled at a variety of sports and I would not bet against him being able to pick up the game of pool too. When it comes to gifted athletes he's up there mentally and physically.

one stroke
01-11-2014, 08:56 AM
I was a competition diver as a kid, even won a few titles. I have played tennis and golf reasonably well. Of all the sports I have played, pool is by far the most difficult and the most enjoyable. Pool requires exquisite control of mind and body that other sports do not require.

Diving (my favorite sport after pool) requires control of the body's fine and gross motor skills. Once mastered it is matter of muscle memory. With pool the subconscious mind and its ability to control fine motor skills must be mastered, an extremely difficult task more on the order of eastern meditational philosophies.

I do not know what the most difficult sports would be, high diving, which I did for years, requires motor control and mastery of fear, not much more. Pool may or may not be the most difficult sport but it definitely up near the top.

No it's not near the top ,, Go to the SBX and see how many kids are smoking adults three times their age
To reach that level in any other sport would require countless yrs of coaching most pool players are self taught for the most part
Not to mention all the athletic ability needed with eye hand ,, pool .. Grab stick aim shoot
How hard can it be

1

ChicagoRJ
01-11-2014, 08:57 AM
I am 70 years old and took up baseball six months ago. It is not difficult and in fact I find it boring and will be quitting the team soon. Of course old men's slow pitch softball is not comparable to pro baseball. The principles are the same, natural skill and muscle memory, that's all.

Nope, baseball and softball are NOT the same.... hitting a ball tossed at you underhand, at a very slow rate of speed, with the intent of allowing you to hit the ball... nobody strikes out in slo pitch softball, versus someone throwing the ball with great speed and movement with the sole intention of not allowing you to hit the ball, or at the very least not allowing you to put a good swing on it, are as different as bumper pool and snooker.

JoeW
01-11-2014, 08:59 AM
I rode motorcycles for over 30 years, including off track stuff. Again we are talking about coordination, muscle memory, and mastering fear. Not much more. To be among the most difficult sports there needs to be a mental component that is constantly engaged with the physical.

Mastery of one's fear is but one skill / emotional component, physical coordination is but one skill. They all need to be brought together.

I think that when we are younger we are overly impressed by mastery of fear. Once mastered the activities that require it are seen as bordering on stupid. My last high dive was from about 85 feet and my pregnant wife with a belly the size of a bowling ball was sitting near the water falls. I looked at her and thought, "If I die that kid won't have a father -- enough of this."

APA BRIAN
01-11-2014, 09:03 AM
No such thing as a natural talent in pool. Nobody just picks up a cue and starts running out. Sure, some people learn faster and retain information better than others, but that doesn't mean they have a pool gene.

Pool is not tough. It just takes time and dedication. For some, less than others.

Have you ever heard Allen Hopkins talk about his game? He certainly believes he was born to play. Of course there are people that are natural at it. Just like anything else.

ChicagoRJ
01-11-2014, 09:05 AM
No it's not near the top ,, Go to the SBX and see how many kids are smoking adults three times their age
To reach that level in any other sport would require countless yrs of coaching most pool players are self taught for the most part
Not to mention all the athletic ability needed with eye hand ,, pool .. Grab stick aim shoot
How hard can it be

1

Finally, someone with some common sense :) Pool has the same difficulty as bowling, the difference, just like pool leagues, many bowlers don't get better because of a lack of interest, lack of effort, lack of cash or just lack of time. Those that play the most, seem to be the best, meanwhile in other sports, at a certain point, you can practice the most, but you just don't have the talent, speed, or strength to compete against the best players.

You can train till you bleed, but if you can't throw a ball very far or can't run very fast, you NEVER will. Yeah, you can increase a little through technique, but guess what, slow guys will always be slow guys, they just might become smarter base runners, but become base stealers, NEVER, EVER, NEVER :)

JoeW
01-11-2014, 09:05 AM
And you can teach any kid to ride a bike, hit a baseball, or shoot a pool shot in about ten minutes. None of that says anything about what it takes to master the sport.

I think pro players have fewer coaches because of the required mental components that must be learned through trial and error with one's own head. The basic requirements are not difficult ,mastery is another matter. The idea that pro players do not have ongoing coaches says much about the mental game.

ChicagoRJ
01-11-2014, 09:11 AM
And you can teach any kid to ride a bike, hit a baseball, or shoot a pool shot in about ten minutes. None of that says anything about what it takes to master the sport.

I think pro players have fewer coaches because of the required mental components that must be learned through trial and error with one's own head. The basic requirements are not difficult ,mastery is another matter. The idea that pro players do not have ongoing coaches says much about the mental game.

So, why would you believe pool to be more difficult than other sports if you can teach everyone all sports in only minutes ??

If pool was more difficult, one could logically argue, they are better athletes or surely better competitors, why not put all that skill and mental toughness into something that pays the bills ? Something that could make you a multi millionaire, living in a mansion, driving a Rolls Royce and sleeping with super models... I know it's a tough choice between that and sleeping in your buddy's 72 VW van, and getting the occasion BJ from bar flies, but c'mon :)

jaetee
01-11-2014, 09:24 AM
Pool can be an occasional recreation to pass time.
Pool can be a serious hobby.
And it seems pool can be somewhat of a vocation, but only for an increasingly "elite" few.

I think pool is an easy game in terms of learning just enough to get to a point where you can have a good time being competitive among the masses and "think" you're good... But at the same time, it's among the most difficult to truly master.

And the lines between the various levels of play at the very top of the echelon can be very fuzzy. That's where people start to debate the virtues of being the best money player vs. the tournament player, etc...

I think an important aspect of pool which gives it such great appeal is that it's also one of the cheapest non-team games you can get into that will eat up humongous chunks of time. And it's one of the few you can also play/practice on your own. In those rights, it can be quite a "cost effective" hobby. I've heard some people refer to pool as golf's blue-collar little brother...

ShortBusRuss
01-11-2014, 09:26 AM
Heck, you could take SVB and train him with the best baseball coaches on the planet, and he is still is not hitting a 95 splitter or slider, or striking out Miguel Cabrera... He would not even make our local HS team with a year of professional training.

Wow.. A LOT of passive-aggressivenesss going on here...

I am curious as to what you base your assumptions on? I am a man of science, so before I make a Declarative statement such as yours, I require an abundance of proof that conforms to a pretty high standard.

Have you seen SVB trip over his own feet?

Have you competed against SVB in some sort of fast twitch reflex competition and easily bested him?

Have you directly observed SVB performing poorly in some sort of exercie that tests overall hand-eye coordination and muscle response?

I call a spade a spade. Top athletes perform well because of two things:

1. They have the physical tools to perform at a high level. Hand-eye coordination in the top 1% of the population. Fast nerve impulse communication from the brian to the muscles. Muscle memory in the top 1% of the population.

2. They have top mental games, due to various psychological factors. The ability to perform at 100% capacity under pressure.

That's IT. It's simple science, for the most part.

So, I am curious... Obviously, SVB has #2 down pat.

Therefore, we must be debating #1 only. So, I say again... Have you directly observed SVB performing in such a way that would make you believe him to have no other chance in another sport?

I seem to remember Bo Jackson played mutiple sports at a high level, right? I also seem to remember he had a high interest in multiple sports, as well, which is a HUGE factor. You can't reach a top level at something you don't LOVE. There are some sports that are so demanding that age is a factor.. (Snooker, for the eyes.. Pro Football, for the overhealth physical responsiveness and reflex speed, etc..etc..)

I might agree with you on SVB not being able to hit that 95 MPH slider, but ONLY because his is in his 30s, and his reflexes are simply too deteriorated at his age, so that no matter what his inherent level of talent is, he no longer possess the basic physical tools..

But I bet I can teach Cal Ripken to run a few racks....

Yeah, someone "taught a few strong shortstops to run a few racks" too... And they will get smoked in every major they ever play in, and will never reach the level of play of SVB/Johnny Archer/Earl Strickland.

There is a big difference between playing pool "competently" and playing at a championship level.

You think there is a reason why pool players play for peanuts, and baseball, football, and hockey and golf play for MILLIONS. If Earl could play pro tennis, he'd give up pool in a heart beat.

I can't begin to measure the level of ignorance of this first sentence. They play for peanuts ONLY because baseball, football, hockey, and golf are more marketable and are watched by fans in larger amounts. Humans are an aggressive "us vs them" species, and that lends itself well to supporting team-based sports. Golf is popular for other reasons, but it's tendency to be played by the "upper-crust" of business persons maintians it's popularity, as a means to get away from the office during the workday and close a million dollar deal.

Note that the popularity of these sports and their marketability have NOTHING to do with their difficulty. People watch team sports so they can see "their team" beat "the other guys". These sports play on the natural evolutionary based anti-outsider mentality almost all animals are born with.

Golf is popular for economic reasons... Tennis is popular because it is fast paced, a lot going on.

Yes, pool is not popular, therefore poolplayers don't get paid well.

Your statement that Earl would cross over into tennis in a heartbeat if he had the ability is INSANE. You are putting this forth as "proof" that pool players do not have the tools to compete in other sports because their game is not as hard.

The only thing I see is that Earl is FAR TOO OLD to compete in tennis, even if born with the ability of Sampras or Agassi.

Dude, seriously.. You need to work on your logical arguments and stay within the frame of the debate.

I submit that top physical talent is top physical talent, and that a subsection of THAT talent is going to have a strong mental game. Period. If one of these people gets into pool early on, they will become a pool champion. if they get into Golf instead, they will become a Golf champion.

If they have the physical frame for football, and they have been working out in a proper manner since their mid teens, they will become a good footballer.

You seem to be one of those people, that although you hang out on a pool forum, you don't think much of pool players, even at the highest level. You don't have a lot of concrete evidence to support that the physical talents of top pool players don't have crossover values to other sports, although we have multiple champion pool players who are scratch golfers or better.

Just like it took Johnny Archer years to combine both his physical game and his mental game, and took him competing against loads of top players before he could win, it takes young golf phenoms a few years of competition before they can win. (Unless they happen to be Tiger Woods)

The difference between pool and golf is that it is MUCH more expensive to get the requisite "seasoning" at golf than it is at pool. In pool, you just need entry fees to as many tournaments as you can make, and in Johnny Archer's early career, gas was $1.00 a gallon and hotels were $30.00 a night. Not prohibitively expensive.

To even GET on the PGA Tour, there is Q-School, or whatever it is called.

I had a friend in Iraq serving as a contractor who shoots in the 60's in golf.. He had $100,000 in the bank, and I have no doubt he could have made it on the tour, but he had a family to support, and was not in the circumstances to give it a try.

Just like young people and college... If you don't make it happen in sports/games when you are 16-22, it ain't generally gonna happen. This is more a matter of a young person's ability to take financial chances and free time to compete, than innate ability.

I think the fact that even taking up the game in their mid 20's in a lot of cases, the fact that so many pool players are scratch golfers is a testament to the fact that they most likely would have been fine players in ANY sport they might have chosen when younger.

Short Bus Russ - C Player

P.S. I'll cut you some slack, though.. You ARE from Chicago, after all.... The birthplace of National Socialism in America... :grin-square:

JoeW
01-11-2014, 09:33 AM
Life is not about making money. In my life the challenge, ethical, physical and mental are much more important. If you love what you do and are willing to spend the time mastering whatever it is, you will make money.

Those who truly love what they do are better at it than others because they spend the extraordinary amounts of time and effort required. You see, you must love what you do or you will not put forth the effort. The money required to live a good life will follow.

You can take that to the bank :grin-square:

First you must be at peace and loved by your family (whoever they are). If they support you then you can spend the fantastic amounts of time required to master your interest, the necessary money will follow. This last comment is the conclusion of some of the most intelligent people at the end of their lives when they were asked "What makes a good life?"

franko
01-11-2014, 09:34 AM
I donít know why so many on here and in the poolrooms get so upset with themselves because they canít run 100+ in 14.1, 4 or 5 racks of 9 ball in a few years in such an easy game as pool. Pool is not easy. IMO pool is one of the hardest games to become a top player in. There are so many things you need to know and be able to do perfectly compared to most other sports and games. This is one thing Iíll never understand about pool. Most people seem to think pool should be a piece of cake to get good at in a very short time, and that is the farthest thing from the truth. Just getting the basics down perfectly takes a lot of time and practice. Iíve played and watched just about every major and semi-major sport and can not think of one that you have to do so many things perfectly right. Johnnyt

I agree with you. A friend of mine was a professional bowler and a par golfer, when he was asked which of the 3 was the hardest he said Pool. In Bowling and Golf you get all your turns and your opponent can not safe you or run out like in straight pool and never give you one shot.I always hear " 9 ball is to lucky and easy " it is funny those who say that never win a tournament , surely they should be dominating them.

ShortBusRuss
01-11-2014, 09:38 AM
So, why would you believe pool to be more difficult than other sports if you can teach everyone all sports in only minutes ??

If pool was more difficult, one could logically argue, they are better athletes or surely better competitors, why not put all that skill and mental toughness into something that pays the bills ? Something that could make you a multi millionaire, living in a mansion, driving a Rolls Royce and sleeping with super models... I know it's a tough choice between that and sleeping in your buddy's 72 VW van, and getting the occasion BJ from bar flies, but c'mon :)

Ummm, because as I said in my other response, pretty much any top player in ANY game has to "make it" in between the ages of roughly 16-22, otherwise either life gets in the way or physical skill begin to deteriorate in the mid 20's?

Most people at the top level of something in their early 20s will just keep banging away out of it through sheer optimism. That's why SVB is still playing pool. By the time these players hit their mid to late 20's, pragmatism starts to set in about the time their muscle memory for learning new sports starts to wane. By this time, it is too late to reach championship level at another game.

But, you a logical, well-reasoned guy, so I am sure you already came to this logical, self-evident conclusion yourself. :grin-square:

Short Bus Russ - C Player

ChicagoRJ
01-11-2014, 09:42 AM
Wow.. A LOT of passive-aggressivenesss going on here...

I am curious as to what you base your assumptions on? I am a man of science, so before I make a Declarative statement such as yours, I require an abundance of proof that conforms to a pretty high standard.

:


No passive aggression going on, I really just can't believe how silly this argument is... Well, if you want the science, that look up the SI research that compared the toughest sports...

For me, I love baseball and pool. And I happened to be a HS baseball coach, and former semi pro baseball player, as well as an ACS advanced pool instructor... .so, yeah, my personal opinion is based on a lot of experience within both sports....... teaching and playing the game.

Hitting a 90MPH slider is prolly the most difficult thing in sports to do.... being an NFL QB has got be up there as well.... throwing a ball 50 yards, on a dime, in double coverage, with 300 pound guys just wanting to crush you like a grape.

I mean, if you wanna say pool is harder than bowling, and some other non athletic sports, then, hey, we'd at least have a good, honest argument... but not against baseball, certainly not against football, hockey, tennis, and other sports that require such a massive amount of skills, speed and strength.

If I play at DCC this year at 51, yeah, I'm donating, but I'm not going to be laughed out of the hotel if I play against SVB, I might even win a game, I can tell you that if I had to hit against Verlander, I'm done, I'm toast, and folks would be throwing their beer cans at me :) And I played the game at a decent level at one time :)

The difference is so huge, someone that has not played at a higher level of other sports would never understand... heck, ask Earl, he told me that tennis and golf are much harder than pool... he knows it, it does not bother him one bit........and he's still pretty good at them both, but can't make a living at either one.

JoeW
01-11-2014, 09:44 AM
So, why would you believe pool to be more difficult than other sports if you can teach everyone all sports in only minutes ??

If pool was more difficult, one could logically argue, they are better athletes or surely better competitors, why not put all that skill and mental toughness into something that pays the bills ? Something that could make you a multi millionaire, living in a mansion, driving a Rolls Royce and sleeping with super models... I know it's a tough choice between that and sleeping in your buddy's 72 VW van, and getting the occasion BJ from bar flies, but c'mon :)

I think it is one of the more difficult sports because it requires a mastery of physical, emotional, and mental aspects of being human. The interplay of fine motor control and the subconscious mind to execute a shot and get position without allowing the consciousness to interfere is sublime and extremely difficult over a lengthy period of time.

I would have to agree that the quarterback in football has to be among the most difficult of players. He too has to have it all under control.

ChicagoRJ
01-11-2014, 09:45 AM
Ummm, because as I said in my other response, pretty much any top player in ANY game has to "make it" in between the ages of roughly 16-22, otherwise either life gets in the way or physical skill begin to deteriorate in the mid 20's?

Most people at the top level of something in their early 20s will just keep banging away out of it through sheer optimism. That's why SVB is still playing pool. By the time these players hit their mid to late 20's, pragmatism starts to set in about the time their muscle memory for learning new sports starts to wane. By this time, it is too late to reach championship level at another game.

But, you a logical, well-reasoned guy, so I am sure you already came to this logical, self-evident conclusion yourself. :grin-square:

Short Bus Russ - C Player

Well, you finally figured it out... it does start to wane for professional athletes, pool players actually get better as they age... hell, Earl is still competing with the best at 52 years old....

I'll teach Brian Urlacher how to play pool during his retirement years, and you teach Can Wang to play LB in the NFL... we'll see who makes it first or dies trying :)

StraightPoolIU
01-11-2014, 09:46 AM
I agree with the original post. Pool is a unique blend of strategy AND execution. If you have a good golf swing you will probably play good golf. If you have a good stroke that doesn't even begin to mean you have to play good pool.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

ChicagoRJ
01-11-2014, 09:49 AM
I think it is one of the more difficult sports because it requires a mastery of physical, emotional, and mental aspects of being human. The interplay of fine motor control and the subconscious mind to execute a shot and get position without allowing the consciousness to interfere is sublime and extremely difficult over a lengthy period of time.

Physical ?? surely you jest. Right, there is not mastery of emotion and mental aspects in other sports....

What do you think is going through the mind of a hitter with the bases loaded, in the 9 inning, while facing Mariano Rivera..... and he only has 3 tenths of a second to decide...

Sorry, you guys are barking up the wrong tree here... again, compare pool to bowling, or some other very limited athletic sports, and we can have a conversation....

ChicagoRJ
01-11-2014, 09:52 AM
I agree with the original post. Pool is a unique blend of strategy AND execution. If you have a good golf swing you will probably play good golf. If you have a good stroke that doesn't even begin to mean you have to play good pool.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

And if you have a good baseball swing it MEANS absolutely nothing because of the hand eye skill and hand speed required to hit a ball, not to mention you have to a fraction of a second to decide what pitch is coming, and where it is going... and unlike pool, baseball is the ONLY sport when you are on OFFENSE you don't have the ball, the other team has it, and is trying to make you miss it..... golf and pool, the ball is teed up, not even moving.... how sweet is that :)

JoeW
01-11-2014, 09:54 AM
Much of the argumentation here revolves around the meaning of the word "difficult."

In my thinking, as related to sports, "difficulty" includes the integration of mind and body. Obviously not everyone agrees.

ChicagoRJ
01-11-2014, 09:56 AM
Much of the argumentation here revolves around the meaning of the word "difficult."

In my thinking, as related to sports, "difficulty" includes the integration of mind and body. Obviously not everyone agrees.

On this we can agree....mastering anything is difficult... and requires dedication and commitment... just some need more than others :)

Donny Lutz
01-11-2014, 09:57 AM
Definition: Natural talent is an innate or inborn gift for a specific activity, either allowing one to demonstrate some immediate skill without practice, or to gain skill rapidly with minimal practice.



By this definition, the key advantage of natural talent is that it allows the individual a steep learning curve, whereby he or she acquires skills readily with less practice or hard work than the average person. As well as the advantage of learning quickly, natural talent is also said to increase oneís maximum potential. This implies that each individual has a ceiling that caps the highest level of performance they can attain, no matter how hard or long they train. For gifted performers, this ceiling is said to be higher

Great answer.

I was a "natural" in the sense that once I saw someone make a bridge and pocket a ball, it was quite easy for me to imitate them.
But becoming a champion, even at the amateur level, required lots of work and effort.

JoeW
01-11-2014, 09:59 AM
To be emotionally involved in the outcome of a baseball swing is not the same thing as to use the subconscious ability to execute the shot and get position.

The physical component refers to the use and control of fine motor coordination.

Donny Lutz
01-11-2014, 09:59 AM
Kids can learn to play at a high level in pool faster than any other sport bar none



1

I think that's mostly because pool doesn't require strength and size.

Johnnyt
01-11-2014, 10:05 AM
but i played in a league for 7 years with a guy that was drafted by the dogers. he got hurt and never made it big time, but he's a pretty sharp pool player. he says that putting a bat on a 100 mile an hr fast ball is harder that any shot on the table.

Putting the bat on it isn't super hard, but making the ball go where you wanted is. Johnnyt

JoeW
01-11-2014, 10:09 AM
Putting the bat on it isn't super hard, but making the ball go where you wanted is. Johnnyt

Yeah, one of the first things I learned in the old men's softball league is that I could pretty much put the ball where I wanted it. Seems one of the weaker players is usually in right field so that is where I hit to. Playing pool helped me to learn to do that. Just have to shift your feet

Donny Lutz
01-11-2014, 10:10 AM
Sorry folks. Pool is not even in the top 50 sports of difficulty. Number one belongs to baseball according to an extensive research by Sports Illustrated. The hand eye coordination and the speed to actually hit a 90 MPH slider is ungodly.

The human eye can't even track the baseball for the last 5 feet, and thus why the pitchers with balls the break the latest, pitch the best.

I believe pool was rated just about fishing in terms of difficulty, but way below cheerleading.

Now, that is not a knock on pool, it takes a lot of time to be great at anything. But how many 19 year old pitchers can compete against the BEST hitters in the game. There is a reason why they throw $100 million dollar contract around the MLB like they are nickels, cause there are only some many folks that can play at that level.

Same with football. There are only some many folks that can play QB in the NFL, even most of the best college QB's fail in the NFL.

Heck, even Earl Strickland knows it takes more skill to play gold and tennis than pool, and he happens to be pretty good at both of them...

I assume you've achieved some success in at least 50 sports to make this statement.

The reason that there's a limited number of NFL quarterbacks is simply because of the number of NFL teams. If the NFL expanded to sixty teams, do you believe most of them would be unable to find a quarterback?

Golf is very difficult, but strategically it's no where near the challenge of pool. The options on a pool table are almost infinite, and there's no defense in golf.

If you look at the earning potential, it's far easier to make a living playing golf than pool. There are thousands doing so.

If you're talking about simply accomplishments, I'd say bowling is much easier to master than pool...and I do speak from experience here.

Johnnyt
01-11-2014, 10:11 AM
That is a great point. Can pool be considered one of the toughest sports if men can be competitive in their senior years?

It's not easy to reach an elite level of any activity but to use that as a reason to claim that pool is one of the hardest sports is incorrect.

I said hardest game to get good at...not hardest on your body.

ChicagoRJ
01-11-2014, 10:14 AM
I assume you've achieved some success in at least 50 sports to make this statement.


If you're talking about simply accomplishments, I'd say bowling is much easier to master than pool...and I do speak from experience here.

Nope, just going by a study done by Sports Illustrated... pool was not in the top 50... sorry.

And, yes, pool more difficult than bowling... I can get on board with that one :)

ShortBusRuss
01-11-2014, 10:15 AM
Well, you finally figured it out... it does start to wane for professional athletes, pool players actually get better as they age... hell, Earl is still competing with the best at 52 years old....

I'll teach Brian Urlacher how to play pool during his retirement years, and you teach Can Wang to play LB in the NFL... we'll see who makes it first or dies trying :)

I think we might have got our debate topics mixed up...

I am making the assertion only that top pool players by default have the same basic set of tools that all elite athletes have...

1. Phenomenal hand-eye coordination

2. Phenomenal muscle memory

3. Fast twitch reflexes (Johnny Archer had this when younger, i.e. hand speed on the break.. Not sure about SVB, because I think it is a diferent break style..)

4. Horribly strong mental game

5. Overall phenomenal kinesthetic sense i.e. "body awareness" kinesthesia (http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/kinesthesia)

Therefore, it follows logically that at the highest levels, that these traits are required to play at a championship level. People who do not have them do not become pool champions, by and large. People who have them, but have horrible mechanics (Tommy Kennedy) can still play at a near champion level. (Tommy did win a US Open 9 Ball championship, and does win a lot of tourneys still in Florida, but I would consider him to be "near champion" speed still...) Mike Davis is another example.

So, if all these physical advantages are required to play championship pool, and these traits are shared by elite athletes everywhere, then it also follows that had these champion poolplayers chosen another sport when they were younger, they may very well be top competitors in those sports as well.

As far as the "difficulty" of pool versus other games.. Well, I submit again that the top players possess the same basic physical traits as those in other sports.. Those who do not possess these don't succeed long term. There must be something awfully difficult about the game for that reason.

The game is less impactful on the human body, it must be noted. That is the only reason poolplayers can compete well into advanced age.

I believe that a lot of other sports rely heavily on the set of physical traits that lends to split-second reaction, which is a combination of hand-eye coordination, fast twitch reflexes, and reaction speed. This makes a young body pretty much mandatory, which also means that if you did not focus on this sport at a young age, you have no chance.

Some sports or sports positions rely more on size, physicality, and maintaining muscle memory.. Think Shaq.... He played to an older age because his size and physicality allowed him to get to the basket for a layup. If his muscle memory was better and he could therefore shoot free throws better, he might have been even more dominant than he already was.

I think that it is unknown whether pool players have the physical skill to compete in "fast twitch response" sports or not... To say they absolutely cannot when most of the champions are 30+ is a bit of a disigenuous argument.. As the time for competing at those sports in generally past in the larger competitive population.

I do believe that "fast twitch response" ability does usually come wrapped up with overall athletic ability, however.

I myself don't think it is fair to say that just because a sport involves fast reaction speed, it is automatically harder. It just means it is "different" than one that requires near perfect muscle memory over a long career.

Just as SVB will never hit a 95MPH slider, Nolan Ryan will never win 15 Golf Majors, and Tiger Woods will never run a 13 pack on another pro whilst down one set when playing for thousands.

Short Bus Russ - C Player

Donny Lutz
01-11-2014, 10:16 AM
lol. that's just plain silly. Actually, most don't keep up with baseball, football, and hockey, because of the difficulty level. Any teenagers playing pro ball?

Heck, you could take SVB and train him with the best baseball coaches on the planet, and he is still is not hitting a 95 splitter or slider, or striking out Miguel Cabrera... He would not even make our local HS team with a year of professional training.

But I bet I can teach Cal Ripken to run a few racks.... You think there is a reason why pool players play for peanuts, and baseball, football, and hockey and golf play for MILLIONS. If Earl could play pro tennis, he'd give up pool in a heart beat.

I'm not sure that some sports pay more because they're more difficult. Has much more to do with fan appeal and corporate promotion.

Johnnyt
01-11-2014, 10:17 AM
Sorry folks. Pool is not even in the top 50 sports of difficulty. Number one belongs to baseball according to an extensive research by Sports Illustrated. The hand eye coordination and the speed to actually hit a 90 MPH slider is ungodly.

The human eye can't even track the baseball for the last 5 feet, and thus why the pitchers with balls the break the latest, pitch the best.

I believe pool was rated just about fishing in terms of difficulty, but way below cheerleading.

Now, that is not a knock on pool, it takes a lot of time to be great at anything. But how many 19 year old pitchers can compete against the BEST hitters in the game. There is a reason why they throw $100 million dollar contract around the MLB like they are nickels, cause there are only some many folks that can play at that level.

Same with football. There are only some many folks that can play QB in the NFL, even most of the best college QB's fail in the NFL.

Heck, even Earl Strickland knows it takes more skill to play gold and tennis than pool, and he happens to be pretty good at both of them...

Fishing is harder to get good at than pool? I was born and raised on the water and fished almost everyday from 8 years old to 13. I don't know where SI got their facts...but they are very wrong. And Earl says Pool is harder than golf and tennis. Johnnyt

ChicagoRJ
01-11-2014, 10:21 AM
To be emotionally involved in the outcome of a baseball swing is not the same thing as to use the subconscious ability to execute the shot and get position.

The physical component refers to the use and control of fine motor coordination.

OH, you mean like throwing a baseball 60'6" at a target that is 17 inches wide, and trying to recall exactly what that batters tendencies are, what did he do last time up, what did he did three weeks ago when I pitched to him, how he swings, who is on base, what the count is, what the score is, who is up next, is the guy leading off first base to far, what happens if he bunts, and what if he hits it back at my head,,,

And then have to throw it not on the 17 inches, but on the corners of the 17 inches, at a high rate of speed, with much break in the ball to allow the batter to miss, but still hitting that corner for strike.... yep, nothing mental there at all :)

ShortBusRuss
01-11-2014, 10:23 AM
Nope, just going by a study done by Sports Illustrated... pool was not in the top 50... sorry.

And, yes, pool more difficult than bowling... I can get on board with that one :)

Dude.. seriously... you are basing your argument on Sports Illustrated... a commerical magazine? And the fact that you repeated this multiple times as the basis of your argument... I dunno.. I just find that amusing.

Sports Illustrated is gonna report on the sports that make it the most money for reporting on them.. Football, Baseball, Basketball, and some Golf...

ANYTHING else the magazine prints is just filler fluff.. I mean, yeah, the writer will put a "little" work into making the story/study sound legitimate, but in the end, people want to know what Peyton Manning has to say about winning, not whether pool or tetherball is more difficult.

And "difficulty" is totally subjective. I have already noted a few accomplishment in a few non-impact sports that the impact stars will never accomplish. I say again.. SI is gonna report favorably on the sports it has the most contact with and that it makes the most money off of.

Hardly the organization to be doing an objective study on what is inherently a subjective judgement.

Short Bus Russ - C Player

(((Satori)))
01-11-2014, 10:23 AM
I said hardest game to get good at...not hardest on your body.

And I meant hardest to get good at.

It is a sport where one mistake cost you precious seconds or one mental laps could send you to the dirt.. The techniques for cornering, making your way through the whoops, executing a variety of jumps, handling a variety of surfaces, visualizing your lines, visualizing your rythem from section to section all make it a tougher sport to learn or get to the elite level. And of course it is physically more demanding and that doesnt just mean tough on your body.


Pool is easy. Relax, see the shot, execute, repeat.

The funny thing is you guys think I'm some supercross rider or something and don't understand your sport. I did very little amatuer racing but pool is my thing and my love. That's not going to stop me from saying it is easier than a sport like Supercross though.

Johnnyt
01-11-2014, 10:25 AM
I was a competition diver as a kid, even won a few titles. I have played tennis and golf reasonably well. Of all the sports I have played, pool is by far the most difficult and the most enjoyable. Pool requires exquisite control of mind and body that other sports do not require.

Diving (my favorite sport after pool) requires control of the body's fine and gross motor skills. Once mastered it is matter of muscle memory. With pool the subconscious mind and its ability to control fine motor skills must be mastered, an extremely difficult task more on the order of eastern meditational philosophies.

I do not know what the most difficult sports would be, high diving, which I did for years, requires motor control and mastery of fear, not much more. Pool may or may not be the most difficult sport but it definitely up near the top.

Thank you. you got my point. Johnnyt

ChicagoRJ
01-11-2014, 10:26 AM
I'm not sure that some sports pay more because they're more difficult. Has much more to do with fan appeal and corporate promotion.

skill level usually factors in as well, you know that..... if the main sports were not that difficult, everyone would do it, everyone would get a pay day...

Must be a reason pool and bowling, which are played by over 30 million folks every year, still is not popular.... just saying :)

ChicagoRJ
01-11-2014, 10:28 AM
And I meant hardest to get good at.

It is a sport where one mistake cost you precious seconds or one mental laps could send you to the dirt.. The techniques for cornering, making your way through the whoops, executing a variety of jumps, handling a variety of surfaces, visualizing your lines, visualizing your rythem from section to section. It is a lot tougher sport to learn, get to the elite level, or tough on your body.


Pool is easy. Relax, see the shot, execute, repeat.

The funny thing is you guys think I'm some supercross rider or something and don't understand your sport. I did very little amatuer racing but pool is my thing and my love. That's not going to stop me from saying it is easier than a sport like Supercross though.

Yeah, super cross is crazy skilled and done by crazy people ( I mean that in a positive way).... there is not enough money to pay me to even attempt the shit they do.....I've never done it, but I've watched it.... very cool, very difficult and very dangerous..... I'd rather take a fast ball to the head... it would be much safer :)

ShortBusRuss
01-11-2014, 10:35 AM
skill level usually factors in as well, you know that..... if the main sports were not that difficult, everyone would do it, everyone would get a pay day...

Must be a reason pool and bowling, which are played by over 30 million folks every year, still is not popular.... just saying :)

Yes, there is a reason. A repetitive motion and fairly boring action.

Again, you are using false logic... They are both fairly low impact sports, which leads to more participation.... Stilll a miniscule fraction of the populace with ever carry over a 270 average.. Comparable to the percentages of accomplishments in other sports. A miniscule percentage of the population will ever run 5 racks in 9 ball, even WITH the break mechanics we have these days.

People watch football because it is fast, people get hit hard, and it is us vs them.. That's IT. It is marketed well base don those properties, so it makes money. People don't generally PLAY football, even on their own, because they value their bodies. Kids who play it have a lot of testosterone, and little sense.

Short Bus Russ - C Player

ChicagoRJ
01-11-2014, 10:36 AM
Dude.. seriously... you are basing your argument on Sports Illustrated... a commerical magazine? And the fact that you repeated this multiple times as the basis of your argument... I dunno.. I just find that amusing.


Short Bus Russ - C Player

And my own personal experience playing and coaching both sports... but I noticed you kinda skipped right over that part....

I believe I could teach someone to become a top pro from the age of 15 in pool, by the time there were 21, if they put the time and commitment in.. But in baseball, it would be still be a million to one shot, even with my expert tutelage :)

ChicagoRJ
01-11-2014, 10:41 AM
Yes, there is a reason. A repetitive motion and fairly boring action.

Again, you are using false logic... They are both fairly low impact sports, which leads to more participation.... Stilll a miniscule fraction of the populace with ever carry over a 270 average.. Comparable to the percentages of accomplishments in other sports. A miniscule percentage of the population will ever run 5 racks in 9 ball, even WITH the break mechanics we have these days.

People watch football because it is fast, people get hit hard, and it is us vs them.. That's IT. It is marketed well base don those properties, so it makes money. People don't generally PLAY football, even on their own, because they value their bodies. Kids who play it have a lot of testosterone, and little sense.

Short Bus Russ - C Player

It leads to more participation because more folks are able to play the game... but even folks that play the game of pool do NOT want to watch others play the game...... and thus, why pool is NOT on TV often, and usually only as filler because they got nothing else going on.....

We had two hall of famers in our pool room a few years, and it was like pulling teeth to get folks to watch them give a FREE exhibition.... and that included players on other tables that didn't bother to walk 15 feet to see them, even after I told them who there were.....wtf ???

(((Satori)))
01-11-2014, 10:42 AM
Yeah, super cross is crazy skilled and done by crazy people ( I mean that in a positive way).... there is not enough money to pay me to even attempt the shit they do.....I've never done it, but I've watched it.... very cool, very difficult and very dangerous..... I'd rather take a fast ball to the head... it would be much safer :)


The elite level racers are crazy fast too. Great racers are getting lapped in Supercross. No doubt JoeW understands this with 30 yrs "off track" experience.

ShortBusRuss
01-11-2014, 10:44 AM
And my own personal experience playing and coaching both sports... but I noticed you kinda skipped right over that part....

I believe I could teach someone to become a top pro from the age of 15 in pool, by the time there were 21, if they put the time and commitment in.. But in baseball, it would be still be a million to one shot, even with my expert tutelage :)

A "top pro"? So by that, I assume you mean someone along the lines of an Archer, SVB, Bustamente, Reyes, Parica, Wu, etc..etc...etc...

You are out of your mind if you think you could just "coach" someone, no matter how motivated they are, and think you have even a remote chance of building someone the likes of the above players.

There are so many elements to their game beyond shotmaking and breaking, which I am pretty sure you are not even aware of in order to coach your teen on them.

You'd have to START OUT as a pretty strong shortstop to even think about coaching a teen up to a top player.

Short Bus Russ - C Player

John Brumback
01-11-2014, 10:45 AM
I dare say that any sport or game that cannot be perfected is hard.Example...pool,golf,ping pong,tennis, hell even fishing.I could go on.The first person that perfects any of those games or sports.. got a hundo coming from me:thumbup: Good luck. John B.

ChicagoRJ
01-11-2014, 10:47 AM
A "top pro"? So by that, I assume you mean someone along the lines of an Archer, SVB, Bustamente, Reyes, Parica, Wu, etc..etc...etc...

You are out of your mind if you think you could just "coach" someone, no matter how motivated they are, and think you have even a remote chance of building someone the likes of the above players.

There are so many elements to their game beyond shotmaking and breaking, which I am pretty sure you are not even aware of in order to coach your teen on them.

You'd have to START OUT as a pretty strong shortstop to even think about coaching a teen up to a top player.

Short Bus Russ - C Player

But they all made it, right ??? so, you are saying with a student just as eager, just as dedicated, and with a full time coach, working with a student 5 days a week, you could NOT turn them in to a pro player ?? you outta your mind if you think someone could not.....

JB Cases
01-11-2014, 10:48 AM
Wu is one in a million and natural talent bigtime. Johnnyt

Who just HAPPENS to have had a TON of training before he won the WC in his home country.

Funny how everyone who is good is a "natural", then we see that somehow they put in 10k hours before they won.

ChicagoRJ
01-11-2014, 10:50 AM
I dare say that any sport or game that cannot be perfected is hard.Example...pool,golf,ping pong,tennis, hell even fishing.I could go on.The first person that perfects any of those games or sports.. got a hundo coming from me:thumbup: Good luck. John B.

Yep, I agree... just some require more skill than others....nothing wrong with that...and it does not take away from the folks that are pro in any sport...

heck, even the curling "pros" got a gold medal at the last Olympics :)

ChicagoRJ
01-11-2014, 10:50 AM
Who just HAPPENS to have had a TON of training before he won the WC in his home country.

Funny how everyone who is good is a "natural", then we see that somehow they put in 10k hours before they won.

And BINGO was his name :)

ChicagoRJ
01-11-2014, 10:55 AM
:

I seem to remember Bo Jackson played mutiple sports at a high level, right? I also seem to remember he had a high interest in multiple sports, as well, which is a HUGE factor. You can't reach a top level at something you don't LOVE. There are some sports that are so demanding that age is a factor.. (Snooker, for the eyes.. Pro Football, for the overhealth physical responsiveness and reflex speed, etc..etc..)
************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** ***********************************


Bo Jackson played baseball and football at a high lever because he had speed, strength, great eye sight, and tremendous hand eye coordination not to mention he worked his arse off.....and basically a freak of nature in a good way !!!

but if you think BO can't play pool, you don't know BO :)

JB Cases
01-11-2014, 10:58 AM
But they all made it, right ??? so, you are saying with a student just as eager, just as dedicated, and with a full time coach, working with a student 5 days a week, you could NOT turn them in to a pro player ?? you outta your mind if you think someone could not.....

I think that anyone who isn't handicapped can get to world class in pool. However it does require dedication and desire. People often THINK that they are dedicated and when you really look at how much time they put in and what they do with that time then you see that they come up way short of what's needed.

People think that they have desire but when you examine their choices in life you find that they aren't REALLY willing to sacrifice everything to try and become the best pool player.

I haven't yet found one single example of any person who REALLY showed that dedication and desire who didn't reach world class.

Now, to be a TOP pro among the world class, well that might be something intangible, heart, nerves, demeanor, extraordinary desire - or just even more time and experience. When the top level pros in other sports are studied they ALSO have more time in that lower ranked competitors of the same age.

Pool is tough to master. REALLY tough. It's a game for life. Average players have a lifetime of improvement to look forward to. I think it's fascinating.

Island Drive
01-11-2014, 11:06 AM
[QUOTE=ChicagoRJ;4538529]Yep, I agree... just some require more skill than others....


Where can I get one of those ''skillometeres'' or that thing' that tells me this sport or discipline is harder than that one? Sounds like you have that book. All sports at a High level take extraordinary talent and hard work, but to say one is more difficult than another is different. I want to know Where I can find this information in print? :thumbup:
From the sounds of it, weightlifting would be thee most difficult.:eek:

BeiberLvr
01-11-2014, 11:08 AM
I assume you've achieved some success in at least 50 sports to make this statement.

The reason that there's a limited number of NFL quarterbacks is simply because of the number of NFL teams. If the NFL expanded to sixty teams, do you believe most of them would be unable to find a quarterback?

Golf is very difficult, but strategically it's no where near the challenge of pool. The options on a pool table are almost infinite, and there's no defense in golf.

If you look at the earning potential, it's far easier to make a living playing golf than pool. There are thousands doing so.

If you're talking about simply accomplishments, I'd say bowling is much easier to master than pool...and I do speak from experience here.

There are currently 6 QBs with $100 million salaries. The argument could be made that only 2 of them, Rodgers and Brees, are worth that much money.

I don't think the debate is about how many people can get the job as a QB. It's about how many are actually worth a large sum of money based on their abilities. Not many.

ChicagoRJ
01-11-2014, 11:11 AM
I think that anyone who isn't handicapped can get to world class in pool. However it does require dedication and desire. People often THINK that they are dedicated and when you really look at how much time they put in and what they do with that time then you see that they come up way short of what's needed.

.

I agree 1000 %.

Folks in leagues are more interested in finding a "magic" cue rather than taking lessons or practicing more..... folks want short cuts, but in life there really is not any if you want to be successful in anything.... i'm pretty sure you did not roll out of bed one day knowing how to build a case... and had to put in some hours and training to become of the best ones ....

ChicagoRJ
01-11-2014, 11:12 AM
[QUOTE=ChicagoRJ;4538529]Yep, I agree... just some require more skill than others....


Where can I get one of those ''skillometeres'' or that thing' that tells me this sport or discipline is harder than that one? Sounds like you have that book. All sports at a High level take extraordinary talent and hard work, but to say one is more difficult than another is different. I want to know Where I can find this information in print? :thumbup:
From the sounds of it, weightlifting would be thee most difficult.:eek:

I'm not sure, but prolly in the same place you found the info that pool is the most difficult :rolleyes:

ChicagoRJ
01-11-2014, 11:16 AM
There are currently 6 QBs with $100 million salaries. The argument could be made that only 2 of them, Rodgers and Brees, are worth that much money.

I don't think the debate is about how many people can get the job as a QB. It's about how many are actually worth a large sum of money based on their abilities. Not many.


I agree... On the entire planet, there are only 2 guys that can do what Manning can do... TWO. The skill level, the arm speed, the ability to read a defense, the ability to throw 50 yards in double coverage and still complete the pass, the ability to avoid 300 pound dude trying to hurt you, is just so difficult, that NOBODY else on the planet wants that $100M contract.....

The other QB's are way above average and even they are hard to replace, hence why Chicago WAY over paid for Cutler... cause who else is gonna do it.... I would have taken my chances with the NFL draft rather than give Cutler $100M plus :)

SJDinPHX
01-11-2014, 11:46 AM
And I meant hardest to get good at.

It is a sport where one mistake cost you precious seconds or one mental laps could send you to the dirt.. The techniques for cornering, making your way through the whoops, executing a variety of jumps, handling a variety of surfaces, visualizing your lines, visualizing your rythem from section to section all make it a tougher sport to learn or get to the elite level. And of course it is physically more demanding and that doesnt just mean tough on your body.


Pool is easy. Relax, see the shot, execute, repeat.<--Then it should be easy for everyone to beat Efren, huh ?

The funny thing is you guys think I'm some supercross rider or something and don't understand your sport. I did very little amatuer racing but pool is my thing and my love. That's not going to stop me from saying it is easier than a sport like Supercross though.

Mr. (((Satori)))

No one is saying that it doesn't take a lot of dedication to become good at any endeavor..But you are comparing supercross bike riding to pool, and it is off the charts..You might as well compare basketball, to Chinese checkers ! Try and be objective..You say you love pool. but apparently you cannot master the game, to anywhere near a championship level..Until you do, you are NOT qualified to even GUESS at a comparison !

The singer/entertainer Don Cherry, (google him) who happened to be a PGA touring pro golfer, a 215 avg. bowler, and a VERY good pool player, once put it in perspective... When Johnny Carson, (on one of Don's many appearances on his show) asked him this question..He said; "Don, you seem to be good at everything you do, is there any game you CAN'T play well" ?

Don did not bat an eyelash..He said; "Without a doubt, pool is the hardest game to become highly proficient at..I love the game, and I've been trying for 30 years, but I doubt if I am much above an average good player" !

PS..By the way, Don Cherry routinely beat guys like Jackie Gleason, and Donald O'Connor, both of whom were very good player's for entertainer's..But, he knew where he stood on the list of TOP player's...All it ever took to win his cash, was a decent shortstop ! Yours truly, used to give Don the 7 and 8, playing 9 ball, (for $5-10 a game) and had to stall, to keep from running over him :rolleyes:

LATE EDIT; Mr. RJ. and Mr.Lvr..Give it a rest...Your comparisons, are even more outlandish than Mr. Satori's. :embarrassed2:

Pushout
01-11-2014, 11:52 AM
No such thing as a natural talent in pool. Nobody just picks up a cue and starts running out. Sure, some people learn faster and retain information better than others, but that doesn't mean they have a pool gene.


No less a player than Irving Crane disagreed with the statement that there is no natural talent in pool. He stated in an interview in BD "You either have natural talent or you don't." I agree, to an extent. I think that those who learn faster and progress faster do indeed have some natural talent for the game. A fellow I know personally ran 80 balls his second year playing. How many have done that, I wonder?

ShortBusRuss
01-11-2014, 11:53 AM
But they all made it, right ??? so, you are saying with a student just as eager, just as dedicated, and with a full time coach, working with a student 5 days a week, you could NOT turn them in to a pro player ?? you outta your mind if you think someone could not.....

I was writing another response to this, and lost it when I clicked on a link accidentally, but I am gonna shorten it up to a comparison of skills levels between the U.S. and the Phillipines. Any student would need to compete regularly with other great players to season them up to be world class players. First, a recap of the state of play in the U.S.:

We have a total of 2 1/2 world class players.

SVB = 1 world class player.....barely. Can't win outside the U.S.

Archer = 3/4 world class player. He's just not as sharp as he used to be, although he can still win a U.S. tournament, if he is running well.

Rodney Morris = 1/2 world class player. He was always loose with his CB, and is falling off a bit, AND is not playing all that much these days. Can't stay sharp if yer not in the fray.

This is who your hypothetical student would be playing against for his next five years.

As opposed to the Phillipines. Orcullo came through the following list of players to cement his claim as a world class player.

Efren, Bustmente, Alcano, Pagulayan, Parica, Kiamco, Luat, Sambajon, Manalo, Gabica, Roberto Gomez, Gabica, and oh.... about 10 more that probably play a ball better than anyone in America under SVB.

I am curious.. Were you planning to move to either China or the Phillipines to train this prodigy teen? Or were you gonna let him practice in his basement and perfect his fundamentals before he goes out and starts slaying dragons with his cue?

Hey, I know it's brutal, but it IS the state of American pool. Two short decades ago, we were at the top of the pool world. Now, even our best player can't snap off a world championship. You need a good petri dish before you can grow a good culture.

Short Bus Russ - C Player

ChicagoRJ
01-11-2014, 12:04 PM
I was writing another response to this, and lost it when I clicked on a link accidentally, but I am gonna shorten it up to a comparison of skills levels between the U.S. and the Phillipines. Any student would need to compete regularly with other great players to season them up to be world class players. First, a recap of the state of play in the U.S.:

We have a total of 2 1/2 world class players.

SVB = 1 world class player.....barely. Can't win outside the U.S.

Archer = 3/4 world class player. He's just not as sharp as he used to be, although he can still win a U.S. tournament, if he is running well.

Rodney Morris = 1/2 world class player. He was always loose with his CB, and is falling off a bit, AND is not playing all that much these days. Can't stay sharp if yer not in the fray.

This is who your hypothetical student would be playing against for his next five years.

As opposed to the Phillipines. Orcullo came through the following list of players to cement his claim as a world class player.

Efren, Bustmente, Alcano, Pagulayan, Parica, Kiamco, Luat, Sambajon, Manalo, Gabica, Roberto Gomez, Gabica, and oh.... about 10 more that probably play a ball better than anyone in America under SVB.

I am curious.. Were you planning to move to either China or the Phillipines to train this prodigy teen? Or were you gonna let him practice in his basement and perfect his fundamentals before he goes out and starts slaying dragons with his cue?

Hey, I know it's brutal, but it IS the state of American pool. Two short decades ago, we were at the top of the pool world. Now, even our best player can't snap off a world championship. You need a good petri dish before you can grow a good culture.

Short Bus Russ - C Player

slow down big guy... I said to make them compete at a pro level... not be a WORLD friggin champion....

I know guys that picked up pool just a few years ago, and have already won the IL state championship..... weird, huh ?

ChicagoRJ
01-11-2014, 12:06 PM
Mr. (((Satori)))


The singer/entertainer Don Cherry, (google him) who happened to be a PGA touring pro golfer, a 215 avg. bowler, and a VERY good pool player, once put it in perspective... When Johnny Carson, (on one of Don's many appearances on his show) asked him this question..He said; "Don. you seem to be good at everything you do, is there any game you CAN'T play well" ?

Don did not bat an eyelash..He said; "Without a doubt, pool is the hardest game to become highly proficient at..I love the game, and I've been trying for 30 years, but I doubt if I am much better than an average good player" !

:

OK, ii's official.. a singer nobody has ever heard of has decided pool is the most difficult game to master on the planet.. thanks for clearing that up :rolleyes:

PS: Put down the Jack Mack :)

SJDinPHX
01-11-2014, 12:18 PM
OK, ii's official.. a singer nobody has ever heard of has decided pool is the most difficult game to master on the planet.. thanks for clearing that up :rolleyes:

PS: Put down the Jack Mack :)

Sorry RJ, he was from my era..I told you to google him... But NO, you prefer to be uninformed AND sarcastic ! :rolleyes:

PS..He was more popular than one of your heroes, (Kanye West ?) back in the day ! :sorry:

j_zippel
01-11-2014, 12:28 PM
I think that anyone who isn't handicapped can get to world class in pool. However it does require dedication and desire. People often THINK that they are dedicated and when you really look at how much time they put in and what they do with that time then you see that they come up way short of what's needed.

People think that they have desire but when you examine their choices in life you find that they aren't REALLY willing to sacrifice everything to try and become the best pool player.

I haven't yet found one single example of any person who REALLY showed that dedication and desire who didn't reach world class.

Now, to be a TOP pro among the world class, well that might be something intangible, heart, nerves, demeanor, extraordinary desire - or just even more time and experience. When the top level pros in other sports are studied they ALSO have more time in that lower ranked competitors of the same age.

Pool is tough to master. REALLY tough. It's a game for life. Average players have a lifetime of improvement to look forward to. I think it's fascinating.

Tell us how you really feel?? lol

i most certainly agree though

ChicagoRJ
01-11-2014, 12:29 PM
Sorry RJ, he was from my era..I told you to google him... But NO, you prefer to be uninformed AND sarcastic ! :rolleyes:

Oh, so you don't like when I'm a wee bit sarcastic... so now you know how the rest of AZB feels when you post :)

Surely, you don't believe pool is the most difficult sport... hell, I know folks that made it to the HOF without winning a single national or world championship ;)

BeiberLvr
01-11-2014, 12:29 PM
Sorry RJ, he was from my era..I told you to google him... But NO, you prefer to be uninformed AND sarcastic ! :rolleyes:

PS..He was more popular than one of your heroes, (Kanye West ?) back in the day ! :sorry:

Pretty sure RJ is a white middle aged republican. I highly doubt he's a fan of Kanyes.

ChicagoRJ
01-11-2014, 12:39 PM
Pretty sure RJ is a white middle aged republican. I highly doubt he's a fan of Kanyes.

Oh, you got that right :) Oh, and I really don't like Justin Biber either :) I know, I know, that is not what your avatar means :)

RussPrince
01-11-2014, 12:55 PM
Wow this thread is just chalk full of ignorance all around. Couldn't even get through a couple of pages without my brain hurting from all the dumb comments.

I will argue with anyone that pool has BY FAR the steepest learning curve of any other sport or activity. It requires a precision and attention to detail that far surpasses anything else. And I mean anything.

Saying that pool is nothing but point click and shoot is probably the most ignorant thing that's ever been said about pool on this forum. Period

Pushout
01-11-2014, 01:03 PM
Wow this thread is just chalk full of ignorance all around. Couldn't even get through a couple of pages without my brain hurting from all the dumb comments.

I will argue with anyone that pool has BY FAR the steepest learning curve of any other sport or activity. It requires a precision and attention to detail that far surpasses anything else. And I mean anything.

Saying that pool is nothing but point click and shoot is probably the most ignorant thing that's ever been said about pool on this forum. Period

Ya think? LOL!

ChicagoRJ
01-11-2014, 01:04 PM
Wow this thread is just chalk full of ignorance all around. Couldn't even get through a couple of pages without my brain hurting from all the dumb comments.

I will argue with anyone that pool has BY FAR the steepest learning curve of any other sport or activity. It requires a precision and attention to detail that far surpasses anything else. And I mean anything.

Saying that pool is nothing but point click and shoot is probably the most ignorant thing that's ever been said about pool on this forum. Period

Well, I for one never said it was point/click... it's a tough game... just not in the same realm of the tough sports to master...

So, it's dumb to think many other sports are tougher to master than pool, but it's brilliant when you say that pool is tougher that EVERY SPORT AND GAME ON THE PLANET :rolleyes:..... LMAO

RussPrince
01-11-2014, 03:18 PM
Never saw a post of yours in this thread. As I said I couldn't even get through a couple of pages. But at least now you're getting it... :thumbup:

SJDinPHX
01-11-2014, 03:39 PM
I think that anyone who isn't handicapped can get to world class in pool. However it does require dedication and desire.

John PUHLEEEEEEEEEEZE !..Here you go with the "anyone can be world class" (with dedication) again..Than you end your post with a very factual statement-->>>>

...Pool is tough to master. REALLY tough. It's a game for life. Average players have a lifetime of improvement to look forward to. I think it's fascinating.

You need to get a grip on reality, and realize that its YOU, JoeyA, and about eleventeen million other 'average decent' player's, who have that "lifetime of improvement" to look forward to !...I know, I know, you are convinced you will magically become 'world class' by March, and rob poor Lou !...I see you have a few 'under-achiever's in this thread, who share your lofty (but distorted) viewpoint :sorry:

313370

galipeau
01-11-2014, 03:50 PM
Wow, lighten up people. Pool is great. Pool is tough, it's like chess but the pieces don't always listen.


The funniest thing I've heard on here is picturing Bo Jackson hypothetically snapping cues.

I think some of the posts here are comparing apples and oranges, but it's fun to read so, oh well....

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

HawaiianEye
01-11-2014, 03:56 PM
You need to get a grip on reality, and realize that its YOU, JoeyA, and about eleventeen million other 'average decent' player's, who have that "lifetime of improvement" to look forward to !...I know, I know, you are convinced you will magically become 'world class' by March, and rob poor Lou !...Rots'sa ruck wi' dat John ! :eek:

313370

SJDinPHX,

I'm really UNFAMILIAR with YOUR pool accomplishments and haven't, nor intend to, read the One Pocket Org site to try to figure it out. I'm not saying you can play or not play, but I'd like for you to point out on here just WHO you beat, how MANY times, and for HOW much. Also, could you provide a listing of tournaments you have won (not including any that were 8 person fields at the rec center).

I keep seeing you "belittle" players who aren't "PROs", yet I have NEVER heard of you participating in, placing in, or winning ANY event that comes to mind.

I don't mean for this post to rile you up or ridicule you, I just would like the FACTS.

Aloha.

Horsetrader
01-11-2014, 04:03 PM
I donít know why so many on here and in the poolrooms get so upset with themselves because they canít run 100+ in 14.1, 4 or 5 racks of 9 ball in a few years in such an easy game as pool. Pool is not easy. IMO pool is one of the hardest games to become a top player in. There are so many things you need to know and be able to do perfectly compared to most other sports and games. This is one thing Iíll never understand about pool. Most people seem to think pool should be a piece of cake to get good at in a very short time, and that is the farthest thing from the truth. Just getting the basics down perfectly takes a lot of time and practice. Iíve played and watched just about every major and semi-major sport and can not think of one that you have to do so many things perfectly right. Johnnyt

In a way you're right but also wrong. It's not hard to play but it is hard to become a master player. Most people tend to over think the game of pool, in all games. Learn the fundamentals, then see where your game takes you. I love the game of pool. Now gambling on pool, now that's a hard thing to learn. To learn HOW to truly match up is an art. Very people master that.

Island Drive
01-11-2014, 04:05 PM
[QUOTE=Island Drive;4538556]

I'm not sure, but prolly in the same place you found the info that pool is the most difficult :rolleyes:

I think your absolutely correct!!!:thumbup: Really....thx, I needed that.

The Renfro
01-11-2014, 04:15 PM
Finally, someone with some common sense :) Pool has the same difficulty as bowling, the difference, just like pool leagues, many bowlers don't get better because of a lack of interest, lack of effort, lack of cash or just lack of time. Those that play the most, seem to be the best, meanwhile in other sports, at a certain point, you can practice the most, but you just don't have the talent, speed, or strength to compete against the best players.

You can train till you bleed, but if you can't throw a ball very far or can't run very fast, you NEVER will. Yeah, you can increase a little through technique, but guess what, slow guys will always be slow guys, they just might become smarter base runners, but become base stealers, NEVER, EVER, NEVER :)

Actually the steroid era kind of make the argument incorrect... Players were getting faster and stronger and quickening their reflexes... If a steroid can have such a massive impact on baseball and football I tend to think the difference between the avg Joe and pro athlete is purely physical...

As far as pool goes the dedication and training can move hills but it won't move mountains... I have a friend who took a year and played pool 8 hours a day every single day... With the intent on seeing how good he could get... He had been playing for years and you would think after a solid year of training he should have been able to reach pro speed... I don't know if he even got a ball better..

This is one of the things that hurts pool imho... You have all these league and recreational players who think they could be Shane if they only had the time to put in on their game... It's a crock of BS.... Pool is not like other sports that mimic our normal "play" activities...

We run, jump, throw, tackle and hit pretty naturally as kids... Size, Speed and Strength dictate becoming professional with that skill set.... Is playing offensive guard harder than being a pro pool player? Sure would be for me at 6'2 210 pounds but for the guy that stands 6'7 and weighs 340 I doubt it...

What would you list as the skills required to play pool? What other sports would have similar skill sets? Are all of those skills something you can acquire or do some of them have to exist in your physiological and psychological makeup?

That to me would make a great reality show... Take a bunch of moro.errr players who think all it takes is practice put them in a training facility give them all the instruction possible and document their efforts... At the end of the year each player gets $10k and has to match up against a professional drawn at random player.... I'd bet heavily on the pro every time....

Chris

Rackemep
01-11-2014, 04:16 PM
This has been a fun read...Y'all crack me up!!!

Shaun <----jack of many trades master of none...

Black-Balled
01-11-2014, 04:22 PM
And you can teach any kid to ride a bike, hit a baseball, or shoot a pool shot in about ten minutes. None of that says anything about what it takes to master the sport.

I think pro players have fewer coaches because of the required mental components that must be learned through trial and error with one's own head. The basic requirements are not difficult ,mastery is another matter. The idea that pro players do not have ongoing coaches says much about the mental game.

But riding a bike is equal to hitting a pool ball, IMO. Far different from developing the skill in either to approach anything that would assist in determining difficulty.

And I see theRe are lots more pages to this topic...I trust someone has mentioned that we are 'expeRts' in pool. We hardly know other sporTs as well.

Black-Balled
01-11-2014, 04:25 PM
This has been a fun read...Y'all crack me up!!!

Shaun <----jack of many trades master of none...

Same here...sadly, I am pretty good at lots, great at none :shrug:

BeiberLvr
01-11-2014, 04:27 PM
That to me would make a great reality show... Take a bunch of moro.errr players who think all it takes is practice put them in a training facility give them all the instruction possible and document their efforts... At the end of the year each player gets $10k and has to match up against a professional drawn at random player.... I'd bet heavily on the pro every time....

Chris

That would be a stupid lock bet.

It takes more than a year's worth of dedication to play at the top level.

There's two things that people need to understand. Playing at a professional level and being a professional are two different things. Anyone can learn to play at a professional level, but not anyone can be a pro.

There is nothing that makes a pro player that can't be learned, with the exception of maybe a good memory.

Stroke? Practice straight in shots.

Ball Pocketing? HAMB

Performance under pressure? Stay in constant competition, and play others that are better than you.

Positional Play? HAMB and observe results.

JustPlay
01-11-2014, 04:40 PM
Wu is one in a million and natural talent bigtime. Johnnyt


Maybe. But what your explaining to everyone is that at best since he was 12 years old (tall enough to play on a 9ft table) in 4 years (maybe a year or 2 more) that he was able to out play players with decades of knowledge because of his sheer superior talent?

No. My guess, he just mastered the basics in a short period of time. Made some great shots. Got lucky. Kept his emotions in check. Had laser like focus and concentration. Had fun. And in some way used Wade Cranes advice: On each and every shot make the most of it....(he used to have an audio tape on playing your best pool. Wish i still had a copy of that).

The Renfro
01-11-2014, 04:45 PM
Food for thought on what may make some pro talent and require others a lifetime of dedication....

http://web.jhu.edu/cty/STBguide.pdf

Chris

one stroke
01-11-2014, 04:47 PM
I assume you've achieved some success in at least 50 sports to make this statement.

The reason that there's a limited number of NFL quarterbacks is simply because of the number of NFL teams. If the NFL expanded to sixty teams, do you believe most of them would be unable to find a quarterback?

Golf is very difficult, but strategically it's no where near the challenge of pool. The options on a pool table are almost infinite, and there's no defense in golf.

If you look at the earning potential, it's far easier to make a living playing golf than pool. There are thousands doing so.

If you're talking about simply accomplishments, I'd say bowling is much easier to master than pool...and I do speak from experience here.

If Phil Michelson knew what golf defenses is he would likely have several more majors
yes because their is so much more money in golf available to the hacks more can make a living at it ,,, bear in mind even these players are products of many yrs of instruction high school and collage x players ,, unlike in pool where many many players are self taught ,, every pro golfer has a coach even the best of the best
That speaks volumes of how hard the game is no reasonable comparison here
In fact pool as less hours of instruction per pro player of any sport
To be honest its laughable to compare the Game of pool to any pro sport

1

SJDinPHX
01-11-2014, 04:47 PM
SJDinPHX,

I'm really UNFAMILIAR with YOUR pool accomplishment and haven't, nor intend to, read the One Pocket Org site to try to figure it out. I'm not saying you can play or not play, but I'd like for you to point out on here just WHO you beat, how MANY times, and for HOW much. Also, could you provide a listing of tournaments you have won (not including any that were 8 person fields at the rec center).

I keep seeing you "belittle" players who aren't "PROs", yet I have NEVER heard of you participating in, placing in, or winning ANY event that comes to mind.

I don't mean for this post to rile you up or ridicule you, I just would like the FACTS.

Aloha.

If you don't want to research my history, that's fine..But I am not about to furnish a resume, or a beat list for you !..If it bothers you so much, there is plenty of info in these archives, you wouldn't have to go to 1P.org

Actually, I only have a problem with people who think learning to play top level pool, (specifically one pocket) is a piece of cake... I have a little thing going, with John Barton, in that regard, and also CJ, with his insisting how EASY a game one pocket is to play. (I guess that's why he never bothered to learn it) :o

There are plenty of guys here on AZB, that know how difficult a game pool is to learn.. I just can't understand why there are so many who compare it with hitting a curve ball, or playing horseshoes !...Why are they on a pool forum ?
Could it be because they are trying to learn why pool didn't come easy to them ? If you don't want me defending that position, just ask Jay Helfert, or Buddy Hall, or John Schmidt, or anyone who really knows pool !

PS..I have to believe the dissenters on this thread, just don't know what they are talking about...John B. should know better, and CJ damn sure does !...They both just love to argue with me ! :p

HawaiianEye
01-11-2014, 05:10 PM
If you don't want to research my history, that's fine..But I am not about to furnish a resume, or a beat list for you !..If it bothers you so much, there is plenty of info in these archives, you wouldn't have to go to 1P.org

Actually, I only have a problem with people who think learning to play top level pool, (specifically one pocket) is a piece of cake... I have a little thing going, with John Barton, in that regard, and also CJ, with his insisting how EASY a game one pocket is to play. (I guess that's why he never bothered to learn it) :o

There are plenty of guys here on AZB, that know how difficult a game pool is to learn.. I just can't understand why there are so many who compare it with hitting a curve ball, or playing horseshoes !...Why are they on a pool forum ?
Could it be because they are trying to learn why pool didn't come easy to them ? If you don't want me defending that position, just ask Jay Helfert, or Buddy Hall, or John Schmidt, or anyone who really knows pool !

Pool ISN'T hard to learn at its fundamental level. Assuming you are teachable and have good eye/hand coordination and full control of your body.

Practice, good coaching, commitment, dedication, etc. will only make that person better. How much BETTER can NEVER be DETERMINED until THAT INDIVIDUAL actually does it.

FWIW, I have NOT met a SINGLE pro who AWES me! I have YET to see ANYBODY do ANYTHING that I would consider OUT OF THE REALM of someone ELSE accomplishing.

I think there are PLENTY of people who could beat some of the PROs HEAD UP on a given day. Just because somebody plays in a Pro event doesn't make them a Pro. How many people sign up for the DCC and the US Open who AREN'T pros?

As a matter of FACT, a friend of mine BEAT Rodney Morris for the Hawaiian Open 9-Ball Pro/AM title about 20 years ago. I think Rodney had to beat him 7-3 in the finals to win. My friend got to 4 before Rodney got to 7. Does that make my friend a PRO? If it does, then I am a SUPER PRO because I used to beat his ass 5 to 1 almost EVERY TIME I played him.

Anybody who can run racks can beat somebody better on any given day. That is the FACTS.

Doing it OVER and OVER and OVER is what separates the TOP Tier from the rest. :)

Lesh
01-11-2014, 05:35 PM
Moving an object toward a vast goal... nee; football, basketball, soccer, rugby, et al
Hitting a round object with a club..... nee; Hockey, Golf and Baseball.
Hitting a round object with another round object you hit with the end of a club.... Cue Sports.

/thread

Have a nice day,

Lesh

Johnnyt
01-11-2014, 08:08 PM
I said, "One of the hardest games to get to the top". I never said it was the hardest. Of course it's pretty easy for someone to learn how to make balls quickly, but that won't get you to the top W/O knowing and being able to execute the other 100's of things you must know and be able to do to make the top in pool. You can be the best DH in baseball W/O being able to field well or throw well. In pool if you are weak at kicking, playing safe, pinpoint position. or banking you will never make it to the top.

Ask 10 top pros the history of them learning pool and probably 9 of them will say someone in the family was a very good player, someone in the family owned a poolroom with many great players playing in it, or they always had a friend or relative that shot pro speed that they hung with. In their early teens they hung around or went on the road with a few pro players. and last but not least they had natural talent for pool. Johnnyt

Black-Balled
01-11-2014, 08:20 PM
I said,
Ask 10 top pros the history of them learning pool and probably 9 of them will say someone in the family was a very good player, someone in the family owned a poolroom with many great players playing in it, or they always had a friend or relative that shot pro speed that they hung with. In their early teens they hung around or went on the road with a few pro players. and last but not least they had natural talent for pool. Johnnyt

Interesting thought...I wonder.

I only know one father/son team around me that played better than good pool, the deskas.

BJTyler
01-11-2014, 08:28 PM
Pool's not that tough. You wanna know what's tough? Stocker.

Johnnyt
01-11-2014, 08:29 PM
Interesting thought...I wonder.

I only know one father/son team around me that played better than good pool, the deskas.

Also, most of them started playing at a very young age. Johnnyt

ChicagoRJ
01-11-2014, 08:50 PM
Actually the steroid era kind of make the argument incorrect... Players were getting faster and stronger and quickening their reflexes... If a steroid can have such a massive impact on baseball and football I tend to think the difference between the avg Joe and pro athlete is purely physical...

As far as pool goes the dedication and training can move hills but it won't move mountains... I have a friend who took a year and played pool 8 hours a day every single day... With the intent on seeing how good he could get... He had been playing for years and you would think after a solid year of training he should have been able to reach pro speed... I don't know if he even got a ball better..


Chris

That is because you don't understand the steroid ear. Steriods made folks already playing at a major league level better... how, because it allowed them to recover quicker from workouts, which means they could work out even more... and get physically stronger, but the hand eye, bat speed and physical abilities were already there... so instead of an all-star player, they became MVP type players....

Barry Bonds was all ready an MVP and certain HOF'er, but that was not enough... he wanted to destroy the record HR record... for others, it meant a bigger pay check by putting up bigger numbers....

So, you can give someone steroids and it will NOT quicken their hand speed or let you hit a 95 mph fastball, if you could NOT do it before...

It's also silly that you believe it is only physical when there are guys are all shapes and sizes in baseball.....

and no offense intended, but if your buddy practiced pool 8 hours a day for a year, and did not get one ball better, he might be retarded :)

Island Drive
01-11-2014, 08:57 PM
Pool's not that tough. You wanna know what's tough? Stocker.

Sounds like a Wisconsin beer cooler ran dry, one of the Big ones. Or my son in law who manages a fish hatchery, he's definitely a stocker. :grin-square:

Rackemep
01-11-2014, 09:01 PM
Pool's not that tough. You wanna know what's tough? Stocker.

Tap, tap, tap....Green for you lol

ChicagoRJ
01-11-2014, 09:11 PM
until THAT INDIVIDUAL actually does it.

FWIW, I have NOT met a SINGLE pro who AWES me! I have YET to see ANYBODY do ANYTHING that I would consider OUT OF THE REALM of someone ELSE accomplishing.

Anybody who can run racks can beat somebody better on any given day. That is the FACTS.

Doing it OVER and OVER and OVER is what separates the TOP Tier from the rest. :)

That's it in a nutshell... I see some great shots, and but I can down in the basement and practice the same long shot, and get 3 rail position and actually hit once in awhile....yeah it's cool. And yeah, it's cool that the pro has the ablity to make that shot, under pressure to win a tourney... heck, I like pool too :)

I'm not too sure anyone watching a baseball game can jump into their yard and mimic a pro by throwing 95 mph with pinpoint accuracy, hit a baseball 450 feet, or run full speed for 100 feet, dive in the air and catch the ball before it hits the ground. Heck, MOST folks won't even be able to HIT the ball, let alone hit 450 feet.

heck, most folks could not possibly remember the correct position that every fielder has to take on every play, based on the runners on base. First and second, and a base hit to center field, where does the 3B go, where does the SS go, where does the RF go. what about when it's first and third, or just first base occupied, where does the 2b go, who backs up the catcher, who covers third on an over throw...... heck, major leagues still forget :).

Watching two great QBA's battling it out right now... holy cow, sorry folks, that might be the single toughest position to play in all of sports, because of the skill, toughness, and mental ability needed all the while running from 300 pound giants who really do want to hurt you..... and still throw 50 yards in double coverage, while on the run, and complete the pass.... amazing really

(((Satori)))
01-11-2014, 11:31 PM
[B]Mr. (((Satori)))

No one is saying that it doesn't take a lot of dedication to become good at any endeavor..But you are comparing supercross bike riding to pool, and it is off the charts

When the op compared pool to, in his words, "just about every major and semi-major sport", I was not aware that he or anyone else in this thread would want the following comparisons in the thread to be limited to sports no more difficult than or along the lines of marbles. I thought it would be fair to compare it to "just about every major and semi-major sport" also. If you or others feel it's an unfair comparison I understand and will bow out of the thread.

SJDinPHX
01-12-2014, 01:36 AM
When the op compared pool to, in his words, "just about every major and semi-major sport", I was not aware that he or anyone else in this thread would want the following comparisons in the thread to be limited to sports no more difficult than or along the lines of marbles. I thought it would be fair to compare it to "just about every major and semi-major sport" also. If you or others feel it's an unfair comparison I understand and will bow out of the thread.

No PLEASE, let me bow out !...I finally realized, I am arguing with 2 or 3 people, who don't even know how to debate sensibly !..It is also obvious these few guy's, know absolutely NOTHING about pool, and even less about every other unrelated, off-the-wall comparison they've brought up ! (they missed cock-fighting and arm wrestling) :rolleyes:

I guess these few guys never noticed, that most professional athlete's can barely carry on a conversation..Thats why, when they can no longer stand getting their brains scrambled, they make them announcers, and color men, for sports talk shows...Somebody got something right though..only quarterbacks, (and not ALL of them) are smart enough to beat out Barry Bonds, or Floyd Mayweather in an IQ test ! :rolleyes:

PS..By the way, Golf don't count...Most golfers got through college without cheating. (or being 6' 5" and weighing 300 lbs)... But I know one thing...I'm taking Kanye West, over most stunt biker's, in a head up IQ test !!! :p :p :p
(can't remember who, but I owed someone a sarcastic crack :wink:)

Adios Amigo's

ChicagoRJ
01-12-2014, 05:56 AM
I guess these few guys never noticed, that most professional athlete's can barely carry on a conversation..Thats why, when they can no longer stand getting their brains scrambled, they make them announcers, and color men, for sports talk shows...Somebody got something right though..only quarterbacks, (and not ALL of them) are smart enough to beat out Barry Bonds, or Floyd Mayweather in an IQ test ! :rolleyes:

PS..By the way, Golf don't count...Most golfers got through college without cheating. (or being 6' 5" and weighing 300 lbs)... But I know one thing...I'm taking Kanye West, over most stunt biker's, in a head up IQ test !!! :p :p :p
(can't remember who, but I owed someone a sarcastic crack :wink:)

Adios Amigo's

So, you ran out of stuff, so now it's "well, pro athletes are just stupid"... So, now your argument is pool players much be better because they are smarter than 300 pound lineman. But even said, most 300 pound lineman can still beat most pool players in a 50 yard dash, that's kinda funny.

And of course, NOBODY on here was talking about the 300 pound guys being the best... we mentioned baseball players and QB's who weigh 200 to 240 pounds... about the same weight as some pool players. Some more and some a LOT less :)

and you lost about Kanye as well..... He could have had any woman on the PLANET and he married what is probably the most skankiest and dumb woman on the planet.... geez ;)

ChicagoRJ
01-12-2014, 06:02 AM
Bottom line, to be the best at any sport take skill and determination.

I just gave a 4 hour pool lesson last night. They were from the Ukraine, now living in Chicago. His wife went to college at Wayne State University on scholarship for fencing. She won the NCAA fencing championship every year she was at the school except her junior year... she had the flu that day and took second. This was in 2004, 05, and 07. The fencing discipline was "epee"... don't know what that is, but who cares... you can google Wayne State and see it. Her first name is Anna. She was already inducted into her colleges HOF !!

No woman in NCAA history won 3 NCAA individual fencing national championships . Quite an amazing feat and seeing all the hardware displayed in their basement :) Just impressive.
I don't even fence, or watch it but I was impressed. I've seen at the Olympics a little bit... but now I might watch more :)

Heck, shuffleboard aint' that tough, but to the be the best shuffleboard dude in the country, not real good, but number friggin one, it not so easy :)

Black-Balled
01-12-2014, 06:51 AM
And another thing that makes pool difficult to compare to many other sports is the team dynamic. It is tough to tie your output to others'.

naji
01-12-2014, 06:53 AM
Kids can learn to play at a high level in pool faster than any other sport bar none



1

This is true statement, but not because they have better brain, it is because usually the instructors, or older good players teaching them are not stingy on them and give them all the information they need and teachers do have high desire for them to be on top. Plus kids do listen and practice what they are taught with diligence and believe in the reward and punishment systems. Once they are old, those two systems fades a way and most likely 95% of them quit all together. This applies to many activities not just pool.
Bottom line when we say someone got talent in pool, it is simply means, they lucked out when they were young and adopted a stance that ensures stroke accuracy.

Island Drive
01-12-2014, 07:04 AM
Originally Posted by SJDinPHX View Post
Mr. (((Satori)))


The singer/entertainer Don Cherry, (google him) who happened to be a PGA touring pro golfer, a 215 avg. bowler, and a VERY good pool player, once put it in perspective... When Johnny Carson, (on one of Don's many appearances on his show) asked him this question..He said; "Don. you seem to be good at everything you do, is there any game you CAN'T play well" ?

Don did not bat an eyelash..He said; "Without a doubt, pool is the hardest game to become highly proficient at..I love the game, and I've been trying for 30 years, but I doubt if I am much better than an average good player" !

What's amazingly true about this statement is, back in his day, NO pros would divulge or give out info on how to get better. Without a solid foundation of understanding of the game and ball collisions and squirt/gearing/dirt/humidity/kicking systems....during the roll out years of two shot'', it was nearly impossible to Ever feel confident when matched up with a player that had that understanding, you could FEEL it. Bowling is pretty basic and one could easily get fairly proficient ''just by watching others'', golf usually starts off the same way each shot and their are instructors and print, but in pool NOT. There were probably Many great depression era players back then, moreso than even baseball players at that time in our country.

one stroke
01-12-2014, 07:25 AM
Interesting thought...I wonder.

I only know one father/son team around me that played better than good pool, the deskas.

2 reasons for this ,, one is how many great pool players have kids
And most of the ones that do steer their kids away from the pool hall
I would say now that's changing some because the dingy pool rooms are all but gone and what has been replaced is nicer smoke free environment

1

(((Satori)))
01-12-2014, 09:59 AM
I guess these few guys never noticed, that most professional athlete's can barely carry on a conversation..Thats why, when they can no longer stand getting their brains scrambled, they make them announcers, and color men

Athletes can barely carry on a conversation so they get hired as announcers and color men when they retire.

Lol, got it, thanks for more brilliant insight and another great post.

The Renfro
01-12-2014, 11:18 AM
This an exert from the article I linked earlier... This is a skill that determines aptitude or inherent ability in individuals for being gifted in certain fields of study. Just like other abilities it can be trained but their will be different ceilings for all of us.. Lack of this skill and it's subsets would limit anyone from having a chance at becoming a professional pool player much like being 5'6 would likely prevent you from becoming a center in the NBA... All sports are hard to reach the pinnacle in... Some are impossible for certain people.. Just depends on what the good lord gave you to work with... Long term this is a skill that can be improved... There is no fast track to it tho thru a syringe..

What is spatial ability?

Spatial ability is the capacity to understand and remember the spatial relations among objects. This ability can be viewed as a unique type of intelligence distinguishable from other forms of intelligence, such as verbal ability, reasoning ability, and memory skills.

Spatial ability is not a monolithic and static trait, but made up of numerous
subskills, which are interrelated among each other and develop throughout your life.

Why is spatial ability important?

Visual-spatial skills are of great importance for success in solving many tasks in everyday life. For instance, using a map to guide you through an unfamiliar city, merging into high-speed traffic, and orienting yourself in your environment (as when you are learning your way around a
new school building) are all activities that involve spatial ability. Other examples of tasks requiring visual-spatial ability include packing (as when you must decide if a certain box is large enough for the objects you want to put into it) and using mirror images (as when you are combing
your hair while looking into a mirror).

Spatial ability is also important for success in many fields of study. Mathematics, natural sciences, engineering, economic forecasting, meteorology and architecture all involve the use of spatial skills: For instance, an astronomer must visualize the structure of a solar system and the motions of the objects in it. An engineer visualizes the interactions of the parts of a machine. Radiologists must be able to interpret the image on a medical X-ray. Chemical sum formulas can be viewed as abstract models of molecules with most of the spatial
information deleted; spatial skills are important in restoring that information when more detailed mental models of the molecules are needed.

More formal evidence on the importance of spatial ability in math and science education has been compiled by many researchers, including Humphreys, Lubinski, Shea, Wai, and Webb. Some of their publications are cited in the Readings section below.

Traditionally, critical features of spatial ability in science education have been the skills required to construct efficient mental models of objects from verbal descriptions in textbooks or instruction. In some fields, textbooks and instruction materials have been developed that are
explicitly designed to use spatial skills as a key to mastering
the subject matter. Several such books are listed in the Readings section at the end of this document. While the development of such materials continues to be an important concern, recent technological developments
have added further emphases to the issue.

Visual-spatial ability is becoming increasingly important with the development and proliferation of new technologies such as imaging, computer graphics, data visualization, and supercomputing. Highly demanding spatial tasks include the construction of mental representations of object configuration from images on several screens representing different perspectives, as in some fields of surgery. In other fields, powerful computer graphic technologies are being used to create complex visual images of processes that occur in the natural world. These techniques are used to depict the intricate workings of the immune system, the complex meteorological interactions that occur in a developing thunderstorm, hurricane, or tornado, and the relations of atoms and molecules in chemistry.

Despite their importance in so many fields, in science education, spatial skills rarely work in isolation from other abilities, such as logical reasoning, efficient memory retrieval, and verbal skills, and deficits in one area can often be compensated by excellence in others. An important type of exceptional talent in math and science, however, is the ability to easily switch form one efficient mode of representation to another (e. g., from a
conceptual to a spatial mode and vice versa).

SJDinPHX
01-12-2014, 11:30 AM
Athletes can barely carry on a conversation so they get hired as announcers and color men when they retire.

Lol, got it, thanks for more brilliant insight and another great post.

Mr. ((((Satori))) One last clarification for you....The reason I am bowing out, is because you, and the few other
[sic] 'experts', have GOTTEN exactly nothing..zero, nil, zilch, nada...The only way this is understandable, (or forgivable)
is if you are all under the age of 8 or 10 ! LOL :rolleyes:

PS..I would suggest the mod's require ID/age information, and relegate those that age (or younger) to their own special forum ! ( kinda like they did with 'aiming systems'.)..That way, us 'big boy's' could have a sensible discourse !..LOL :sorry:

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nobcitypool
01-12-2014, 11:43 AM
I agree with JohnnyT. Were pool only about pocketing balls, it could be considered an easy game. However, to be good, you have to see patterns, make strategic decisions, pocket balls, vary speed of stroke with great precision and here's the real difference; know where the target is on the CB and consistently hit it with millimeter precision to get position on the next shot. One small error in any of those aspects is often enough to lose the game against another highly skilled player.

Yes, hitting a 90 mph curve ball takes incredible hand eye coordination. But it certainly doesn't require millimeter precision. And the hitter certainly isnt required to place it on a line of plus or minus 1/2 inch. The only sports i can quickly think of that require that kind of precision are darts and the biathlon. Golf to some degree. How those biathletes suddenly stop and hit targets with precision while having an elevated heart rate is amazing to me.

I'll be happy to propose a bet, to those who think pool is so easy, for a series of shots with precise cb position that i believe a pro level player could rather routinely accomplish.

SJDinPHX
01-12-2014, 12:02 PM
I agree with JohnnyT. Were pool only about pocketing balls, it could be considered an easy game. However, to be good, you have to see patterns, make strategic decisions, pocket balls, vary speed of stroke with great precision and here's the real difference; know where the target is on the CB and consistently hit it with millimeter precision to get position on the next shot. One small error in any of those aspects is often enough to lose the game against another highly skilled player.

Yes, hitting a 90 mph curve ball takes incredible hand eye coordination. But it certainly doesn't require millimeter precision. And the hitter certainly isnt required to place it on a line of plus or minus 1/2 inch. The only sports i can quickly think of that require that kind of precision are darts and the biathlon. Golf to some degree. How those biathletes suddenly stop and hit targets with precision while having an elevated heart rate is amazing to me.

I'll be happy to propose a bet, to those who think pool is so easy, for a series of shots with precise cb position that i believe a pro level player could rather routinely accomplish.

Thank you Mr. Nobcity...Another common sense, intelligent observation !..I think the big boy's far outnumber the 'kid's' now...I may hang around a while, after all ! :wink:

one stroke
01-12-2014, 12:06 PM
I agree with JohnnyT. Were pool only about pocketing balls, it could be considered an easy game. However, to be good, you have to see patterns, make strategic decisions, pocket balls, vary speed of stroke with great precision and here's the real difference; know where the target is on the CB and consistently hit it with millimeter precision to get position on the next shot. One small error in any of those aspects is often enough to lose the game against another highly skilled player.

Yes, hitting a 90 mph curve ball takes incredible hand eye coordination. But it certainly doesn't require millimeter precision. And the hitter certainly isnt required to place it on a line of plus or minus 1/2 inch. The only sports i can quickly think of that require that kind of precision are darts and the biathlon. Golf to some degree. How those biathletes suddenly stop and hit targets with precision while having an elevated heart rate is amazing to me.

I'll be happy to propose a bet, to those who think pool is so easy, for a series of shots with precise cb position that i believe a pro level player could rather routinely accomplish.
The best hitters in the world hit just over 30 % of the time if pool players could only pocket balls at that clip they would beat no one
One pocket has a lot of strategy 9 ball and 10 ball very little

1

Rackemep
01-12-2014, 12:39 PM
Pool is absolutely one tough game to play at a top level, no doubt about it...The elite players just seem to have a sixth sense when it comes to the game. They make it look natural and easy. I believe this to be true with just about anything you can "master" not limited to just sports or games. In my mind it boils down to natural talent, determination, knowledge and heart to master anything. You can put in all the practice in the world but if you're missing one of those ingredients you'll always be just a mere mortal like most of us...

JB Cases
01-12-2014, 01:22 PM
Pool is absolutely one tough game to play at a top level, no doubt about it...The elite players just seem to have a sixth sense when it comes to the game. They make it look natural and easy. I believe this to be true with just about anything you can "master" not limited to just sports or games. In my mind it boils down to natural talent, determination, knowledge and heart to master anything. You can put in all the practice in the world but if you're missing one of those ingredients you'll always be just a mere mortal like most of us...

Luckily for me I am able to hang around Joey Gray a little. The guy is so good no one wants to challenge him to play one pocket at all. He is not only suffocatingly precise but as knowledgeable as anyone in the game.

So, in talking ABOUT him to various people you get two stories.

Story1 - Joey is a monster natural talent.

Story 2 - Joey has had a ton of training paid for by a backer who brought in coaches and bought him every bit of material on one pocket that exists, which Joey ingested voraciously and retained.

And then there is Joey's story about himself - of a teenager who worked at the pizza place and then hopped the bus EVERY weekend to go to Tulsa and dump off the money to any good player who would play him. The 15 year old who took a road trip by greyhound through the Carolinas and played guys like Tony Watson for serious money. The player who INVESTED most of his life into obtaining the knowledge and seasoning to understand the game as much as humanly possible BUT who also stays open minded to learning new things.

So again the story boils down to extreme dedication and desire to get to the point where that level of skill seems almost supernatural.

As the old saying goes, 'any ten year old could do what I do if they have 20 years of experience'.

SJDinPHX
01-12-2014, 02:15 PM
So, in talking ABOUT Joey Gray to various people you get two stories.

Story1 - Joey is a monster natural talent.

Story 2 - Joey has had a ton of training paid for by a backer who brought in coaches and bought him every bit of material on one pocket that exists, which Joey ingested voraciously and retained.

As the old saying goes, 'any ten year old could do what I do if they have 20 years of experience'. <--As you know John, I will pick door #1..I know you are solidly behind door #2, but aren't you contradicting yourself with your last sentence :confused:

By the way, Happy Birthday John..(You don't look a day over 60:embarrassed2:)...Did you notice, being as you removed your "Lou taunting" sig line, I also removed MY "John taunting" sig line in reciprocation...Your Welcome ! :p......Also, heres a
new boat for your birthday ! ;)

The good ship, ROC John Barton.
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justadub
01-12-2014, 02:25 PM
Hitting a round ball, thrown at 100 mph, with movement, and hitting it with a round bat, from 66 feet away, is among the most difficult things to do in sports. The scientists have done plenty of studies on this.

That doesn't take away from the difficulty of mastering any sport.

Some people have a more natural aptitude for different sports of activity. They improve faster than others who have similar athletic ability. This is part of what fascinates us when watching sports, pretty much each and every player we see on TV are amazing athletes, and can out perform us mere mortals at most sports. But what is it that separates them from each other? Physical aptitude, and mental aptitude, toughness, character, determination...the "clutch" gene...? All of the above, methinks.

To play pool at the highest level is extremely difficult, compared to the ability most of us possess. Same as in other sports...

ChicagoRJ
01-12-2014, 02:28 PM
Hitting a round ball, thrown at 100 mph, with movement, and hitting it with a round bat, from 66 feet away, is among the most difficult things to do in sports. The scientists have done plenty of studies on this.

That doesn't take away from the difficulty of mastering any sport.

Some people have a more natural aptitude for different sports of activity. They improve faster than others who have similar athletic ability. This is part of what fascinates us when watching sports, pretty much each and every player we see on TV are amazing athletes, and can out perform us mere mortals at most sports. But what is it that separates them from each other? Physical aptitude, and mental aptitude, toughness, character, determination...the "clutch" gene...? All of the above, methinks.

To play pool at the highest level is extremely difficult, compared to the ability most of us possess. Same as in other sports...


about time you got here dub, always the voice of reason around these parts :)

ChicagoRJ
01-12-2014, 02:34 PM
II'll be happy to propose a bet, to those who think pool is so easy, for a series of shots with precise cb position that i believe a pro level player could rather routinely accomplish.

That is the problem with folks that don't want to use logic... NOBODY said pool was easy, we are only saying with much information and personal observation, that many other sports are MUCH more difficult to master. So, what, why does that bother pool folks.....

I can teach a 18 yr old who never played pool and spend a few months with them, and they will be able to compete in the local league....tey are not gonna be MVP or even the best on their team, but they will be mid range and pocket balls, and actually help the team.

That same 18 year old than has never thrown a football or a baseball, would take several years (with the strong possibility they will NEVER be able to compete) before they are gonna join the local park district baseball league (COLT League around these parts) and actually compete... why do you think that is exactly ?

Bring this up in a bar over a few beers and watch your non playing pool buddies laugh you outta town :)

The Kiss
01-12-2014, 02:42 PM
Sorry folks. Pool is not even in the top 50 sports of difficulty. Number one belongs to baseball according to an extensive research by Sports Illustrated. The hand eye coordination and the speed to actually hit a 90 MPH slider is ungodly.

The human eye can't even track the baseball for the last 5 feet, and thus why the pitchers with balls the break the latest, pitch the best.

I believe pool was rated just about fishing in terms of difficulty, but way below cheerleading.

Now, that is not a knock on pool, it takes a lot of time to be great at anything. But how many 19 year old pitchers can compete against the BEST hitters in the game. There is a reason why they throw $100 million dollar contract around the MLB like they are nickels, cause there are only some many folks that can play at that level.

Same with football. There are only some many folks that can play QB in the NFL, even most of the best college QB's fail in the NFL.

Heck, even Earl Strickland knows it takes more skill to play gold and tennis than pool, and he happens to be pretty good at both of them...

While hitting a baseball might be the hardest thing to do in Sports. I can walk into a batting cage and hit the fastest the thing will throw but I am only a B player and I have played about 15 more years of pool than baseball. And I was nowhere close to being a Superstar at baseball but I could hit the ball well

nobcitypool
01-12-2014, 02:51 PM
That is the problem with folks that don't want to use logic... NOBODY said pool was easy, we are only saying with much information and personal observation, that many other sports are MUCH more difficult to master. So, what, why does that bother pool folks.....

I can teach a 18 yr old who never played pool and spend a few months with them, and they will be able to compete in the local league....tey are not gonna be MVP or even the best on their team, but they will be mid range and pocket balls, and actually help the team.

That same 18 year old than has never thrown a football or a baseball, would take several years (with the strong possibility they will NEVER be able to compete) before they are gonna join the local park district baseball league (COLT League around these parts) and actually compete... why do you think that is exactly ?

Bring this up in a bar over a few beers and watch your non playing pool buddies laugh you outta town :)

For many, that would be because they have no athletic ability. You can't teach athletic ability. However, a reasonable athlete that played little league and some high school ball could go out and be part of those leagues. I've seen many, many people that never played any organized baseball play adult league softball very well.

You're comparing apples to oranges but that's you're prerogative. BTW, the conversation was actually about playing pool at a very high level, or at least my point was. Playing in the local league is similar to Little League Baseball including the guys who can't hold the bat right. In Mark Wilson's book, he believes it takes 10,000 hours of focused practice to achieve pro level. That's quite a bit more than those fellows playing in the local Colt league baseball or football.

justadub
01-12-2014, 03:02 PM
While hitting a baseball might be the hardest thing to do in Sports. I can walk into a batting cage and hit the fastest the thing will throw but I am only a B player and I have played about 15 more years of pool than baseball. And I was nowhere close to being a Superstar at baseball but I could hit the ball well

Hitting in a cage, (even making contact) is doable tor many who grew up playing ball, even without being a top player. Hell, even this 50 year old who stopped playing in high school can hit the 90 mph machine here occasionally.

But hitting a pitched ball, with the pitcher attempting to fool you with variation in speed and location, not to mention movement, is a whole other thing. Today's pitchers throw upwards of 100 mph, which batting cages don't touch, and that 10 mph is a big deal. Add movement and speed variation, crazy difficult. And that's just actually hitting it, not getting a hit or achieving power.





That having been said, SVB can make the che ball do things with such precision that even

justadub
01-12-2014, 03:04 PM
Hitting in a cage, (even making contact) is doable tor many who grew up playing ball, even without being a top player. Hell, even this 50 year old who stopped playing in high school can hit the 90 mph machine here occasionally.

But hitting a pitched ball, with the pitcher attempting to fool you with variation in speed and location, not to mention movement, is a whole other thing. Today's pitchers throw upwards of 100 mph, which batting cages don't touch, and that 10 mph is a big deal. Add movement and speed variation, crazy difficult. And that's just actually hitting it, not getting a hit or achieving power.





That having been said, SVB can make the che ball do things with such precision that even

Hate this tablet!


SVB can do things with the cue ball that even other accomplished players cannot do.

This is true in all sports.

SJDinPHX
01-12-2014, 03:07 PM
That is the problem with folks that don't want to use logic... NOBODY said pool was easy, we are only saying with much information and personal observation, that many other sports are MUCH more difficult to master. <--And you KNOW this because.....???? (how many have you mastered?)

I can teach a 18 yr old who never played pool and spend a few months with them, and they will be able to compete in the local league. <--and you KNOW this because....???? (what would qualify you to teach pool?)

That same 18 year old than has never thrown a football or a baseball, would take several years (with the strong possibility they will NEVER be able to compete) <--Sure, if he were a 'special olympic's kid !...Why do you think that is exactly ? :)<-- No, exactly WHY do "YOU" think that is ?

Mr. RJ...You forgot to follow up with Mr. Barton's usual ironclad guarantee he is telling us the truth !...{ie:} "There have been THOUSANDS of 'scientific studies and tests', proving my point !" :rolleyes:

The Kiss
01-12-2014, 06:13 PM
Oh I totally agree curveballs and change ups are a different story. But like Pedro Cerrano I hit straight ball very much, curve ball not so much. Im also not talking contact talking line drives. But I still have not mastered pool and never will. Maybe if I started pool at 6 like baseball instead of about 12 with pool.

BELDING
01-12-2014, 06:31 PM
I agree pool is really tough,to play at high level.

The Renfro
01-12-2014, 06:47 PM
That is the problem with folks that don't want to use logic... NOBODY said pool was easy, we are only saying with much information and personal observation, that many other sports are MUCH more difficult to master. So, what, why does that bother pool folks.....

I can teach a 18 yr old who never played pool and spend a few months with them, and they will be able to compete in the local league....tey are not gonna be MVP or even the best on their team, but they will be mid range and pocket balls, and actually help the team.

That same 18 year old than has never thrown a football or a baseball, would take several years (with the strong possibility they will NEVER be able to compete) before they are gonna join the local park district baseball league (COLT League around these parts) and actually compete... why do you think that is exactly ?

Bring this up in a bar over a few beers and watch your non playing pool buddies laugh you outta town :)

For many people other sports are MUCH harder and for some they are MUCH easier... It depends on the sport and the skill set required and IF you got your share of that skill set... Just like training cannot make you a super athlete practice cannot transform you into a spatial calculating machine.. That's the rub.. It's a skill but not like speed or strength or quick reflexes that has been measured forever but a skill that has up until recently not been identified.... It's like logic... some people think logically and others post on here as Chicago-ans... That was in jest by the way... We all know people who will never think logically or analytically ... you aren't going to train them to do so.... Ever... Kind of like I am never going to play in the NBA.. I can improve and they can improve but the ceiling is in place...

one stroke
01-12-2014, 06:52 PM
Oh I totally agree curveballs and change ups are a different story. But like Pedro Cerrano I hit straight ball very much, curve ball not so much. Im also not talking contact talking line drives. But I still have not mastered pool and never will. Maybe if I started pool at 6 like baseball instead of about 12 with pool.

It's not tennis pool does not require starting at the age of 6 and neither does baseball
The fact is it often takes yrs before you can recognize if a player of other sports is going to have not only the skill but the physical requirements speed quickness and size all are factors that simply does not exist in pool
By the shear numbers the chances of being a top player in pool is far more likely than any sport bar none ,, but then again why we compare it to a sport is ridicules in its self


1

ChicagoRJ
01-12-2014, 07:15 PM
Mr. RJ...You forgot to follow up with Mr. Barton's usual ironclad guarantee he is telling us the truth !...{ie:} "There have been THOUSANDS of 'scientific studies and tests', proving my point !" :rolleyes:

Because I actually teach both sports... you can't say the same thing,,,, I didn't think so. If you really want my resume, I'd be glad to PM you with it, but no reason to bore the good folks in the main forum ;)

SO, your logic is only because you played pool... and I'm assuming you don't know anything about other sports, nor coached other sports, nor played other sports..... but you are pretty sure you're right again... is that about right :rolleyes:

ChicagoRJ
01-12-2014, 07:16 PM
I agree pool is really tough,to play at high level.

ALL sports are tough to play at a high level.. bowling, shuffle board, cheerleading, soccer, the list goes on...

ChicagoRJ
01-12-2014, 07:20 PM
For many, that would be because they have no athletic ability. You can't teach athletic ability. However, a reasonable athlete that played little league and some high school ball could go out and be part of those leagues. I've seen many, many people that never played any organized baseball play adult league softball very well.

.

BINGO. And with pool you don't need athletic ability. Thus, why it is easier to reach a higher level.... Most athletic sports weed out the others pretty quickly.....

And, btw, adult softball is NOT baseball.... I would never assume folks that never played pool, can play pretty good bumper pool in the basement as logic that it's an easy sport...

For the record, I will say pool is one of the toughest NON athletic sports to master.... does that make any of my couch potato pool buddies feel any better :)

Jaden
01-12-2014, 07:22 PM
If you don't want to research my history, that's fine..But I am not about to furnish a resume, or a beat list for you !..If it bothers you so much, there is plenty of info in these archives, you wouldn't have to go to 1P.org

Actually, I only have a problem with people who think learning to play top level pool, (specifically one pocket) is a piece of cake... I have a little thing going, with John Barton, in that regard, and also CJ, with his insisting how EASY a game one pocket is to play. (I guess that's why he never bothered to learn it) :o

There are plenty of guys here on AZB, that know how difficult a game pool is to learn.. I just can't understand why there are so many who compare it with hitting a curve ball, or playing horseshoes !...Why are they on a pool forum ?
Could it be because they are trying to learn why pool didn't come easy to them ? If you don't want me defending that position, just ask Jay Helfert, or Buddy Hall, or John Schmidt, or anyone who really knows pool !

PS..I have to believe the dissenters on this thread, just don't know what they are talking about...John B. should know better, and CJ damn sure does !...They both just love to argue with me ! :p

I hate to say this, but most people just don't have the requisite knowledge to even be a participant in this discussion. They may think they do because they are an apa 7 or they can run a rack of nineball.

I will say one thing that I don't think can be argued with, pool at the highest levels requires more consistency than almost any other sport.

Also, most people don't understand how precise you have to be to play pool at the highest levels, especially in a game like one pocket.

The highest levels of one hole require a precision that the average player just doesn't understand.

I forgot their name now but when I was in OKC some guys there had this little game that was about precision CB control. They were telling me how Joey Gray had done it. I actually liked it quite a bit, I wish I could remember it now.

I guarantee you that even most runout players couldn't come any where near to completing the game right. Because most games, eightball, nineball, even one pocket with the right shot selections for the player don't require precise position play for the average player. But the top players HAVE that precise position play.

Also, I heard someone mention the precision required for darts. That's a singular object being thrown 5 feet (your feet are at 6 ft but your arm extends out). Pool is about striking one round object precisely into another round object and having BOTH balls do what you want them to.

I don't think there is another valid comparison in any sport to the difficulty in doing that with the precision that is required in pool.

Golf is probably a near exception because there are so many factors at play.

That's the key to the difficulty of the sport. How much knowledge is necessary to play it at a high level???

Pool is 90% knowledge and 10% execution.
The knowledge part also includes knowledge of how to accurately and consistently execute. That's what separates a lot of short stops and A players from the pros, the knowledge of how to execute accurately and consistently(and under pressure).

Once you figure out what to do so that you do what you are trying to each time, THEN you become your best.

Jaden

ChicagoRJ
01-12-2014, 07:30 PM
I hate to say this, but most people just don't have the requisite knowledge to even be a participant in this discussion. They may think they do because they are an apa 7 or they can run a rack of nineball.

I will say one thing that I don't think can be argued with, pool at the highest levels requires more consistency than almost any other sport.

Also, most people don't understand how precise you have to be to play pool at the highest levels, especially in a game like one pocket.

The highest levels of one hole require a precision that the average player just doesn't understand.

I forgot their name now but when I was in OKC some guys there had this little game that was about precision CB control. They were telling me how Joey Gray had done it. I actually liked it quite a bit, I wish I could remember it now.

I guarantee you that even most runout players couldn't come any where near to completing the game right. Because most games, eightball, nineball, even one pocket with the right shot selections for the player don't require precise position play for the average player. But the top players HAVE that precise position play.

Also, I heard someone mention the precision required for darts. That's a singular object being thrown 5 feet (your feet are at 6 ft but your arm extends out). Pool is about striking one round object precisely into another round object and having BOTH balls do what you want them to.

I don't think there is another valid comparison in any sport to the difficulty in doing that with the precision that is required in pool.

Golf is probably a near exception because there are so many factors at play.

That's the key to the difficulty of the sport. How much knowledge is necessary to play it at a high level???

Pool is 90% knowledge and 10% execution.
The knowledge part also includes knowledge of how to accurately and consistently execute. That's what separates a lot of short stops and A players from the pros, the knowledge of how to execute accurately and consistently(and under pressure).

Once you figure out what to do so that you do what you are trying to each time, THEN you become your best.

Jaden

And the same argument can be made for baseball, football, hockey, etc., that folks like SJD have no idea what it takes to play at a high level of any of those sports, and exactly how difficult it is, correct ?

Jaden
01-12-2014, 07:42 PM
And the same argument can be made for baseball, football, hockey, etc., that folks like SJD have no idea what it takes to play at a high level of any of those sports, and exactly how difficult it is, correct ?

That argument CAN be made for any sport if you don't know what it takes to get there; however, many sports that are considered traditional sports require more innate ability than pool. Yes there are caps as to how good a player can get and once bad habits are introduced it can become nigh on impossible to eliminate them, but you don't have to be able to run a 4.4 40 and you don't have to be able to endure 26.2....

So there are lees or at least different caps on how good the players can become, yet you still have relatively few that get there. That shows just how difficult it is.

Now maybe it's because there's no reward. I've made the argument myself that if a viable tour that could support a decent number of players were to present itself, you'd see world class players jump out of the wood work.

I personally know four or five who rarely if ever compete outside of their respective regions if at all.

So there is that. I would really say that in different ways ALL sports played at the highest levels are extremely difficult, but you won't EVER see the necessity for baseball players to have an batting average of .900...

Now is it more difficult to get a hit than make a ball. Sure, and that's why the difficulty has different ways of being attributed to different sports.

Jaden

CJ Wiley
01-12-2014, 07:44 PM
There was a period of time that I played tennis at a higher level than pool. I trained 8 - 12 hours a day and hit numerous balls, training with anyone and everyone that wanted to improve with me.

My mentor became the head coach at NMSU College and I had the chance to compete against some of the best college players in the country (they recruited them from all parts of Mexico, America and South America).

Although tennis is a much more challenging physical game, it's not as demanding as pool mentally and regarding knowledge of margin of error and zones. Many may think the two games are "apples to oranges," but I assure you there are many similarities.

The TOI is much like using Top Spin in tennis, it expands the target area, however, using deflection instead of the curve of spin......the same concept they use in golf when "drawing" or "fading" the ball into the green or fairway.

All these games have common denominators, but it takes a lot of hours to "real eyes" the similarities......the differences are easy to see for an "untrained" eye.

'The Games are the Teacher'



That is the problem with folks that don't want to use logic... NOBODY said pool was easy, we are only saying with much information and personal observation, that many other sports are MUCH more difficult to master. So, what, why does that bother pool folks.....

I can teach a 18 yr old who never played pool and spend a few months with them, and they will be able to compete in the local league....tey are not gonna be MVP or even the best on their team, but they will be mid range and pocket balls, and actually help the team.

That same 18 year old than has never thrown a football or a baseball, would take several years (with the strong possibility they will NEVER be able to compete) before they are gonna join the local park district baseball league (COLT League around these parts) and actually compete... why do you think that is exactly ?

Bring this up in a bar over a few beers and watch your non playing pool buddies laugh you outta town :)

one stroke
01-12-2014, 07:55 PM
BINGO. And with pool you don't need athletic ability. Thus, why it is easier to reach a higher level.... Most athletic sports weed out the others pretty quickly.....

And, btw, adult softball is NOT baseball.... I would never assume folks that never played pool, can play pretty good bumper pool in the basement as logic that it's an easy sport...

For the record, I will say pool is one of the toughest NON athletic sports to master.... does that make any of my couch potato pool buddies feel any better :)

Yes that's the part people don't understand you can think you have all the right tools in other sports but at the end of the day someone has to pick u as being one of the best if that does not happen by a very early age the chances of playing a pro sport are all but done ,, it can be a very cruel world when its up to others to decide whether you or not you have what it takes

1

CJ Wiley
01-12-2014, 07:58 PM
Yes that's the part people don't understand you can think you have all the right tools in other sports but at the end of the day someone has to pick u as being one of the best if that does not happen by a very early age the chances of playing a pro sport are all but done ,, it can be a very cruel world when its up to others to decide whether you or not you have what it takes

1

No one else can ever make that decision for you......it comes from within. Even players like Tiger Woods are no exception.

one stroke
01-12-2014, 08:19 PM
No one else can ever make that decision for you......it comes from within. Even players like Tiger Woods are no exception.
Funny you should bring Golf up I was going to use that but I'm on the fence of golf being a sport ,, in the big sports I don't care what your desire is someone else will make that decision for you and trust me here skill is not always the deciding factor such things as age or previous experience at a collage level or semi pro teams play a huge factors in these decisions ,, pool ,golf ,darts ,bowling , lawn darts, chess then there is sports like tennis and figure skating that take thousands of hours of instruction from a very early age to get to the highest level now humor me and tell me pool gets this level of instruction in the USA

1

The Kiss
01-12-2014, 08:53 PM
It's not tennis pool does not require starting at the age of 6 and neither does baseball
The fact is it often takes yrs before you can recognize if a player of other sports is going to have not only the skill but the physical requirements speed quickness and size all are factors that simply does not exist in pool
By the shear numbers the chances of being a top player in pool is far more likely than any sport bar none ,, but then again why we compare it to a sport is ridicules in its self


1

Ah but there lies the difference in my eyes coaching of fundamentals of baseball in my case started at 6. Head down, back elbow level, fairly level swing. time the pitch in the on deck circle ect ect.

With pool when i started I was given no real basis of fundamentals try and make the ball in the pocket if you made a couple in a row you were doing OK. But what if someone taught me, keep your head down, dominant eye over the cue, aiming techniques, contact point, pocket english, touch ect.

Hell I was well into my 20s before I started to really grasp the game and the technical nuances

SJDinPHX
01-12-2014, 10:25 PM
And the same argument can be made for baseball, football, hockey, etc., that folks like SJD have no idea what it takes to play at a high level of any of those sports, and exactly how difficult it is, correct ?

This is where 'assuming' can get you in trouble, RJ...Certainly not saying I was a Pro at any sport, but I did letter on the varsity baseball team, all three years I attended high school, from freshman on...Baseball and ice hockey were my first love, after pool. I had a rifle for an arm (played 3rd base and catcher) and I was always the most productive hitter on our team.

Hockey was my first love..If there had been organized hockey in our somewhat isolated area, I may never have wound up a pool player..Like CJ was with tennis, I was with baseball and hockey.. I am sure if there were tennis courts, or golf courses in our small town, I am sure I would have gotten involved in those sports too ! In later years, I grew to love and appreciate, both tennis and golf..Never picked up a club, until my late 20's but got to about a six hdcp, fairly quickly !

Call this bragging if you like, but I was more a 'jock' during my formative years, then I was a pool player..My passion for gambling won out over sports, or I'm sure I would have probably pursued those other games, had the opportunity had presented itself. I realize now, how much I missed by not attending college !

I was a little small for football, but I lettered as a sophomore and a junior, in those sports too. (QB naturally) So please don't dismiss me, as knowing nothing about physical sports..So I feel I am making a well rounded observation, on the difficulty level, of learning ALL games ..Thanks for letting me vent !

PS..If there are any doubters, I still have all my HS yearbooks, for anyone's viewing pleasure..I was much more prominent in them, than any of the pool books ! (I was a 'rock star' in high school sports. :wink:)

CJ Wiley
01-13-2014, 12:07 AM
Funny you should bring Golf up I was going to use that but I'm on the fence of golf being a sport ,, in the big sports I don't care what your desire is someone else will make that decision for you and trust me here skill is not always the deciding factor such things as age or previous experience at a collage level or semi pro teams play a huge factors in these decisions ,, pool ,golf ,darts ,bowling , lawn darts, chess then there is sports like tennis and figure skating that take thousands of hours of instruction from a very early age to get to the highest level now humor me and tell me pool gets this level of instruction in the USA

1

Of course golf is a sport, Tiger Woods is one of the best athletes of all time.....in any sport. His training has been incredible through the years and although his body is showing wear and tear, he still maintains a high level of physical performance.

In Hank Haney's book, 'The Big Miss', he describes Tiger's routine through the years.http://img2.imagesbn.com/p/9780307986009_p0_v1_s260x420.JPG

one stroke
01-13-2014, 04:25 AM
Of course golf is a sport, Tiger Woods is one of the best athletes of all time.....in any sport. His training has been incredible through the years and although his body is showing wear and tear, he still maintains a high level of physical performance.

In Hank Haney's book, 'The Big Miss', he describes Tiger's routine through the years.http://img2.imagesbn.com/p/9780307986009_p0_v1_s260x420.JPG

Being a Athlete does not make a game ,, their are plenty golfers that have won Majors that the only thing they ever curled was a 12oz beer
Of course you sidestepped my point of instruction given in other sports where pool would pale in comparison

1

easy-e
01-13-2014, 06:40 AM
This is where 'assuming' can get you in trouble, RJ...Certainly not saying I was a Pro at any sport, but I did letter on the varsity baseball team, all three years I attended high school, from freshman on...Baseball and ice hockey were my first love, after pool. I had a rifle for an arm (played 3rd base and catcher) and I was always the most productive hitter on our team.

Hockey was my first love..If there had been organized hockey in our somewhat isolated area, I may never have wound up a pool player..Like CJ was with tennis, I was with baseball and hockey.. I am sure if there were tennis courts, or golf courses in our small town, I am sure I would have gotten involved in those sports too ! In later years, I grew to love and appreciate, both tennis and golf..Never picked up a club, until my late 20's but got to about a six hdcp, fairly quickly !

Call this bragging if you like, but I was more a 'jock' during my formative years, then I was a pool player..My passion for gambling won out over sports, or I'm sure I would have probably pursued those other games, had the opportunity had presented itself. I realize now, how much I missed by not attending college !

I was a little small for football, but I lettered as a sophomore and a junior, in those sports too. (QB naturally) So please don't dismiss me, as knowing nothing about physical sports..So I feel I am making a well rounded observation, on the difficulty level, of learning ALL games ..Thanks for letting me vent !

PS..If there are any doubters, I still have all my HS yearbooks, for anyone's viewing pleasure..I was much more prominent in them, than any of the pool books ! (I was a 'rock star' in high school sports. :wink:)

Well there you have it, case closed! Dick was the best high school athlete in a town with no golf courses, tennis courts, organized hockey, or people interested in sports. His word is golden. Argument over.

CJ Wiley
01-13-2014, 02:13 PM
Being a Athlete does not make a game ,, their are plenty golfers that have won Majors that the only thing they ever curled was a 12oz beer
Of course you sidestepped my point of instruction given in other sports where pool would pale in comparison

1

I would be willing to put my pool instruction up against any other sports teacher. Hank Haney would agree that pool has more components than golf when you look at it physically AND mentally.

There are several PGA golfers that play pool, when we were all out at Deer Valley Mark O'Meara and Hank both had tables in their houses, and played every night. I "edged" them out, but they are very serious about their games, Hank kept a record of every game he played.

And no, there's not been golfers that have won majors only curling 12 oz. beers. The hand/eye coordination is far superior to baseball, football, or hockey. (if you consider any of these "sports")

BeiberLvr
01-13-2014, 02:28 PM
Lol come on CJ. All targets in golf and pool are stationary.

ChicagoRJ
01-13-2014, 02:39 PM
I would be willing to put my pool instruction up against any other sports teacher. Hank Haney would agree that pool has more components than golf when you look at it physically AND mentally.



If that was even remotely true, pool players would change careers in a heartbeat... the 100th best golfer on the planet is living the life of Riley, the 100th best pool player might not know where his next meal is coming from.

You need NO physical athleticism to play pool.... with other sports that is half the battle..... thus why SVB could NEVER play NFL QB like Manning, and Manning might not ever play pool like SVB, but he would get a lot closer :)

and after a few years of training, I'm pretty sure a dedicated athlete like Manning would NOT embarrass himself in a tournament,,, prolly not gonna get in the money, but embarrassed, hardly. SVB might not even survive training camp :) No offense to SVB, I'm not thinking I would either !!!

bdorman
01-13-2014, 02:48 PM
Didn't Danny Basovich leave pool for a career as wide receiver for the New York Jets?

one stroke
01-13-2014, 02:54 PM
I would be willing to put my pool instruction up against any other sports teacher. Hank Haney would agree that pool has more components than golf when you look at it physically AND mentally.

There are several PGA golfers that play pool, when we were all out at Deer Valley Mark O'Meara and Hank both had tables in their houses, and played every night. I "edged" them out, but they are very serious about their games, Hank kept a record of every game he played.

And no, there's not been golfers that have won majors only curling 12 oz. beers. The hand/eye coordination is far superior to baseball, football, or hockey. (if you consider any of these "sports")

Pay attention to the bouncing ball ,,, first I can assure you John Daly and Jason Dufner are not wining any all around athletic test there are many golfers that would not be considerd athletic by anyone's other than your definition
I know your not suggesting that pool players at the pro level have more hours of instruction from a coach than a PGA pro has that's simply nonsense so stop already
And of course golfers can play pool but pro ams are covered with other sports stars that are scratch golfers ,,


1

nobcitypool
01-13-2014, 03:28 PM
If that was even remotely true, pool players would change careers in a heartbeat... the 100th best golfer on the planet is living the life of Riley, the 100th best pool player might not know where his next meal is coming from.

You need NO physical athleticism to play pool.... with other sports that is half the battle..... thus why SVB could NEVER play NFL QB like Manning, and Manning might not ever play pool like SVB, but he would get a lot closer :)

and after a few years of training, I'm pretty sure a dedicated athlete like Manning would NOT embarrass himself in a tournament,,, prolly not gonna get in the money, but embarrassed, hardly. SVB might not even survive training camp :) No offense to SVB, I'm not thinking I would either !!!

So what definitely defines a sport? And what clearly defines an athlete? If you want to get really picky about it, perhaps the only real athletes are those that participate in the Olympic Decathlon. Do you think Michael Jordan or Lebron James could win the Decathlon? Oh, it's baseball players that can hit a 90 mph curve ball that are the "real athletes", right? I guess that's why the Red Sox DH "Big Poppa" looks like the only thing he can do other than hit is curl a mug of beer. But wait a minute, David Ortiz was named the MVP of the 2013 World Series, he won that based upon his ability to hit a 90 mph curve ball, fast ball or slider (it sure wasn't for his base running and fielding), so he must be a top athlete right? Well how about Peyton Manning, many consider him the best QB of all time. He looks like he runs a 40 yard dash in under 5 minutes (on a good day). I'll bet he'd do great in the Decathlon wouldn't he.

Perhaps then you can clearly define why your baseball and football players are athletes but the Professional Pool Player isn't. No question, it is a different kind of athleticism and skill set but to say it doesn't require exceptional capabilities period is absurd.

nobcitypool
01-13-2014, 03:33 PM
Pay attention to the bouncing ball ,,, first I can assure you John Daly and Jason Dufner are not wining any all around athletic test there are many golfers that would not be considerd athletic by anyone's other than your definition
I know your not suggesting that pool players at the pro level have more hours of instruction from a coach than a PGA pro has that's simply nonsense so stop already
And of course golfers can play pool but pro ams are covered with other sports stars that are scratch golfers ,,


1

How many of them are scratch golfers playing from the same tees and course set up as the pro's play their tournaments on? Would you try to make an argument that Michael Jordan wasn't a great athlete? Yet by comparison to professionals, he sucks at golf. And he apparently was fairly serious about being competitive at pool but I've yet to see him do well at any tournament. Oh, we also have Charles Barkley, a Hall of Fame Basketball player. Sir Charles though can't break a 100 on any decent golf course. On some days, he'd be lucky to break 100 on the front 9. Was Michael Phipps an athlete or did he win all those gold medals in swimming on luck alone? Perhaps you missed his time on Haney's show but he certainly wasn't going to be challenging Dufner or Daly any time soon.

bdorman
01-13-2014, 03:51 PM
At the top level all games are hard. It's useless to compare them.

The only valid comparison is how a player ranks in his particular sport.

The best pool-player (open to debate) is equal to Usain Bolt, world record holder in the 100-meter. It tells us nothing that Bolt's pool game sucks and SVB couldn't finish a 100-meter race.

JB Cases
01-13-2014, 03:51 PM
I think that there are plenty of non-athletic nerdy types who also excel at pool.

One of the results found in the studies is that those who are highly skilled at one activity tend to be no better than the average at other activities.

Specifically when recall of chess layouts was tested master chess players had nearly perfect recall - OF ACTUAL GAME SITUATIONS.

When the chess pieces were put into setups that were not game situations - i.e. positions that would be unlikely or impossible then the ability to recall the exact position of the pieces was NO BETTER THAN A PERSON WHO NEVER PLAYED CHESS.

The same result was found in many similar tests.

But don't let science get in the way.

Oh and for the sports gene folks who always like to point out the Kenyan runners........

RadioLab Podcast. Not going to do your research for you and provide a link.

Island Drive
01-13-2014, 04:12 PM
You need NO physical athleticism to play pool.... with other sports that is half the battle..... thus why SVB could NEVER play NFL QB like Manning, and Manning might not ever play pool like SVB, but he would get a lot closer :)

and after a few years of training, I'm pretty sure a dedicated athlete like Manning would NOT embarrass himself in a tournament,,, prolly not gonna get in the money, but embarrassed, hardly. SVB might not even survive training camp :) No offense to SVB, I'm not thinking I would either !!!

You sir are talking ''out of an area'' you have no clue about. If you think Mika Winning the US Open 9 Ball after losing his first match, and then going, I think its 13 rounds, as I've won this way before myself, but NOT with That kinda field depth. But if you say this man is NOT athletic, you've shown your hand. Verbal Thread battles not needed here, Common Sense speaks too LOUDLY.

ChicagoRJ
01-13-2014, 08:40 PM
You sir are talking ''out of an area'' you have no clue about. If you think Mika Winning the US Open 9 Ball after losing his first match, and then going, I think its 13 rounds, as I've won this way before myself, but NOT with That kinda field depth. But if you say this man is NOT athletic, you've shown your hand. Verbal Thread battles not needed here, Common Sense speaks too LOUDLY.

Oh, geez, relax. Did I say that no player is in good physical condition? No, I didn't think so. The sport is a non athletic endeavor, plain and simple, and one reason MOST players do not need exercise or have to be gifted athletically. I'm betting the MIZ in his heyday could NOT do 10 push ups....

It is a sport, and I've argued that before,, as some folks think it is just a "game"... and that is because it does take very good hand eye coordination, and something most games do not need, like chess, for example....

ChicagoRJ
01-13-2014, 08:43 PM
This is where 'assuming' can get you in trouble, RJ...Certainly not saying I was a Pro at any sport, but I did letter on the varsity baseball team, all three years I attended high school, from freshman on...Baseball and ice hockey were my first love, after pool. I had a rifle for an arm (played 3rd base and catcher) and I was always the most productive hitter on our team.

:)

I believe you, no reason why I should not. That is very cool that you played ball. But after HS, you hit a brick wall, and could NOT go any further. Am I assuming here as well ? But in a sport like pool, it got yourself elected to the 1P HOF because of the high level you played. Unfortunately, even playing at that level you could not make a living and went back to work to support the family, which was the RIGHT thing to do :)

CJ Wiley
01-13-2014, 11:54 PM
Pay attention to the bouncing ball ,,, first I can assure you John Daly and Jason Dufner are not wining any all around athletic test there are many golfers that would not be considerd athletic by anyone's other than your definition
I know your not suggesting that pool players at the pro level have more hours of instruction from a coach than a PGA pro has that's simply nonsense so stop already
And of course golfers can play pool but pro ams are covered with other sports stars that are scratch golfers ,,
1

I would say that golfers AND pool players are considered athletes by definition (http://search.babylon.com/?q=athlete+definition&babsrc=HP_ss_pr&s=web&rlz=0&as=0&ac=0). It's difficult to argue that pool is a game that requires skill and strength....it certainly does.

ath∑lete noun \ˈath-ˌlēt, ųˈa-thə-ˌlēt\
: a person who is trained in or good at sports, games, or exercises that require physical skill and strength

Full Definition of ATHLETE

: a person who is trained or skilled in exercises, sports, or games requiring physical strength, agility, or stamina

SJDinPHX
01-14-2014, 07:40 AM
I believe you, no reason why I should not. That is very cool that you played ball. But after HS, you hit a brick wall, and could NOT go any further. Am I assuming here as well ? But in a sport like pool, it got yourself elected to the 1P HOF because of the high level you played. Unfortunately, even playing at that level you could not make a living and went back to work to support the family, which was the RIGHT thing to do :)

I don't know what you mean by "hitting a brick wall, after high school" ?..I played pool, seriously, for 25 years after I left HS... I did not go to work at UPS, until I was in my early 40's. (you are correct about one thing though, it was the 'RIGHT thing to do')

So once again, you are 'assuming' wrong !.. I never cared for tournaments, because in my day, there were NO lucrative tournaments..(a situation which still exists today.) Also, I have always either had a decent job, or owned a business, and rarely depended on pool, as a sole source of income.

Even though I always loved all sports, I don't think I ever implied I was good enough to make it as a professional in any of them !...My position is much like CJ's...I played other games well enough to make a solid comparison of the difficulty level it takes to become VERY proficient at pool... You are continually trying to say pool is a 'piece of cake' to learn, compared to hitting a 90 mph curve ball !...Sorry RJ...IMHO, You couldn't be more WRONG ! :sorry:

PS..We both know there are different skill sets involved, but the numbers should tell you something...There are literally thousands upon thousands of guy's, in pro sports. (PGA. MLB, NFL, NBA, etc.) MANY of whom were exposed to pool at an early age, LONG BEFORE their chosen sports became so financially rewarding ! ..How many world class pool players can you recall..100 ?..150 ? :rolleyes:

easy-e
01-14-2014, 08:14 AM
I don't know what you mean by "hitting a brick wall, after high school" ?..I played pool, seriously, for 25 years after I left HS... I did not go to work at UPS, until I was in my early 40's. (you are correct about one thing though, it was the 'RIGHT thing to do')

So once again, you are 'assuming' wrong !.. I never cared for tournaments, because in my day, there were NO lucrative tournaments..(a situation which still exists today.) Also, I have always either had a job, or owned a business, and rarely depended on pool, as a sole source of income.

Even though I always loved all sports, I don't think I ever implied I was good enough to make it as a professional...My position is much like CJ's, I played other games well enough to make a solid comparison of the difficulty level it takes to become VERY proficient at pool... You are continually trying to say pool is a 'piece of cake' to learn, compared to hitting a 90 mph curve ball !
Sorry RJ...IMHO, You couldn't be more WRONG !

PS..We both know there are different skill sets involved, but the numbers should tell you something...There are literally thousands upon thousands of guy's, in pro sports. (PGA. MLB, NFL, NBA, etc.) MANY of whom were exposed to pool at an early age, long before their chosen sports became so financially rewarding ! .. How many world class pool players can you recall..100 ?..150 ? :rolleyes:

If pool paid like the other sports, the number of players would be there.

StuartTKelley
01-14-2014, 08:27 AM
Definition: Natural talent is an innate or inborn gift for a specific activity, either allowing one to demonstrate some immediate skill without practice, or to gain skill rapidly with minimal practice.



By this definition, the key advantage of natural talent is that it allows the individual a steep learning curve, whereby he or she acquires skills readily with less practice or hard work than the average person. As well as the advantage of learning quickly, natural talent is also said to increase oneís maximum potential. This implies that each individual has a ceiling that caps the highest level of performance they can attain, no matter how hard or long they train. For gifted performers, this ceiling is said to be higher


I agree with this. Only those with natural talent will achieve the highest levels of their respective sports, hobbies, etc....and with proper training they will be better than anyone who just trains, practices, and learns to do something well. I think the vast majority of us are the latter.

SJDinPHX
01-14-2014, 08:28 AM
If pool paid like the other sports, the number of players would be there.

Mr. E, you may have missed my PS..I said; "There were many thousands exposed to pool, LONG BEFORE their chosen sports became so financially rewarding"..It has only been the last 35-40 years or so, that pro sport salaries, and PGA purses, started going crazy !...What about all the preceeding years ? :confused:

one stroke
01-14-2014, 08:36 AM
I don't know what you mean by "hitting a brick wall, after high school" ?..I played pool, seriously, for 25 years after I left HS... I did not go to work at UPS, until I was in my early 40's. (you are correct about one thing though, it was the 'RIGHT thing to do')

So once again, you are 'assuming' wrong !.. I never cared for tournaments, because in my day, there were NO lucrative tournaments..(a situation which still exists today.) Also, I have always either had a job, or owned a business, and rarely depended on pool, as a sole source of income.

Even though I always loved all sports, I don't think I ever implied I was good enough to make it as a professional...My position is much like CJ's, I played other games well enough to make a solid comparison of the difficulty level it takes to become VERY proficient at pool... You are continually trying to say pool is a 'piece of cake' to learn, compared to hitting a 90 mph curve ball !
Sorry RJ...IMHO, You couldn't be more WRONG !

PS..We both know there are different skill sets involved, but the numbers should tell you something...There are literally thousands upon thousands of guy's, in pro sports. (PGA. MLB, NFL, NBA, etc.) MANY of whom were exposed to pool at an early age, long before their chosen sports became so financially rewarding ! .. How many world class pool players can you recall..100 ?..150 ? :rolleyes:

To lay the bat on 90 mph fastball and 75 mph and do that at over a 300 clip is considered to be one if the most difficult tasks in the world lets remember that's failure of 70 % of the time ,,
if you pitched and played Qb and can't play pool you either didn't play much or the competition was not that good ,, JB will tell you the only thing that separates you and Shane is practice ,, I won't go that far but if your skilled in those sports your much more likely to be good at pool than taking pool players to do what you did in your sports
I have known several pro level players just from my area the smart ones like Mike Davis got a job,, if pool paid more money you would have to close the borders because player from the Philippines Asia and other parts of the world would be flocking here to make money .. there is probably a pro level player on every corner in the Philippines
world class is one thing pro level and entirely different animal there are kids out there that can win a set against good pro players with years more experience its far more likely to happen in pool than any other sport


1

ChicagoRJ
01-14-2014, 08:47 AM
I don't know what you mean by "hitting a brick wall, after high school" ?..I played pool, seriously, for 25 years after I left HS... I did not go to work at UPS, until I was in my early 40's. (you are correct about one thing though, it was the 'RIGHT thing to do')

So once again, you are 'assuming' wrong !.. I never cared for tournaments, because in my day, there were NO lucrative tournaments..(a situation which still exists today.) Also, I have always either had a decent job, or owned a business, and rarely depended on pool, as a sole source of income.

Even though I always loved all sports, I don't think I ever implied I was good enough to make it as a professional in any of them !...My position is much like CJ's...I played other games well enough to make a solid comparison of the difficulty level it takes to become VERY proficient at pool... You are continually trying to say pool is a 'piece of cake' to learn, compared to hitting a 90 mph curve ball !...Sorry RJ...IMHO, You couldn't be more WRONG ! :sorry:

PS..We both know there are different skill sets involved, but the numbers should tell you something...There are literally thousands upon thousands of guy's, in pro sports. (PGA. MLB, NFL, NBA, etc.) MANY of whom were exposed to pool at an early age, LONG BEFORE their chosen sports became so financially rewarding ! ..How many world class pool players can you recall..100 ?..150 ? :rolleyes:

I'm assuming you could not play at a higher level of baseball once you left HS, nothing more and nothing less was implied.

And so we both played other sports, only I actually coach/teach two of them, baseball and pool. So, we might have to agree to disagree.

But comparing the number of "pro" athletes to the number of pool athletes in the US is just kinda silly, don't ya think. So, because there are 30 MLB teams, with 25 players per team, it must be easier because the US does NOT have any pro teams, and is pretty much dysfunctional even in terms of a pro tour?

But out of those 25, there are tens of thousands of HS, and colleges with folks playing ball, and would LOVE to be a pro baseball player...but cannot. There is nobody playing pool because the sport has faded, and there is no money in it unless your name is Lee, or Fisher.

In a prior post I mention the lesson I gave and spoke about his wife who won the NCAA fencing singles champion three years our of four. So, I assumed their 3 year old daughter was going to be a fencing champion just like mom (her dad was a fencing coach in the Ukraine) and they both said, NO, she is going to play tennis, there is NO money in fencing :)

Now, we can't not assume fencing is automatically more difficult than tennis just because there are "thousands" of professional tennis players on the planet, and only a few hundred fencing professionals, could you ?? I mean, I've never met a professional checkers player, but I'm not going to dare assumed checkers is more difficult that Chess :)

JB Cases
01-14-2014, 09:15 AM
To lay the bat on 90 mph fastball and 75 mph and do that at over a 300 clip is considered to be one if the most difficult tasks in the world lets remember that's failure of 70 % of the time ,,
if you pitched and played Qb and can't play pool you either didn't play much or the competition was not that good ,, JB will tell you the only thing that separates you and Shane is practice ,, I won't go that far but if your skilled in those sports your much more likely to be good at pool than taking pool players to do what you did in your sports
I have known several pro level players just from my area the smart ones like Mike Davis got a job,, if pool paid more money you would have to close the borders because player from the Philippines Asia and other parts of the world would be flocking here to make money .. there is probably a pro level player on every corner in the Philippines
world class is one thing pro level and entirely different animal there are kids out there that can win a set against good pro players with years more experience its far more likely to happen in pool than any other sport


1

I think you're right. Judging by your posts the only thing that separates you and the rest of humanity is that every other human is at least 100 points above you. Therefore the intelligence gene is not present in you.

Otherwise you would have the capability to comprehend what you read. You would also have the ability to go out and increase your intelligence by doing your own research. These skills are obviously beyond your biological capabilities so the conclusion I draw is that you are correct, some people, like you, are just born stupid and doomed to stay that way.

I would have said that the only thing that separates us is a desire to learn and expand your mind but sadly I can see that this is not a possibility for you. My deepest condolences Mark.

Meanwhile, for myself, I, and everyone around me now can see the benefits of increased focused practice. The difference in my game from four weeks ago until today with an average of four hours of practice a day is clear to every one of my pool playing colleagues here. I am very sorry that you will obviously never get to experience the joy of improvement.

You have my pity sir.

SJDinPHX
01-14-2014, 09:30 AM
To lay the bat on 90 mph fastball and 75 mph and do that at over a 300 clip is considered to be one if the most difficult tasks in the world lets remember that's failure of 70 % of the time ,,
if you pitched and played Qb and can't play pool you either didn't play much or the competition was not that good,,** JB will tell you the only thing that separates you and Shane is practice ,, I won't go that far but if your skilled in those sports your much more likely to be good at pool than taking pool players to do what you did in your sports
I have known several pro level players just from my area the smart ones like Mike Davis got a job,, if pool paid more money you would have to close the borders because player from the Philippines Asia and other parts of the world would be flocking here to make money .. there is probably a pro level player on every corner in the Philippines. <--I wonder, could that be because there are NO professional sports (in the Philipines) to compete for a youngster's attention ?..Also, most Filipino's happen to be too small in stature, to compete at team sports, like football !.. That's why they love their pool over there !
world class is one thing pro level and entirely different animal there are kids out there that can win a set against good pro players with years more experience its far more likely to happen in pool than any other sport <--This statement makes no sense at all !..I may win one or two holes, in a round of golf with Tiger Woods...Does this mean I play golf as good as him ?...What you are saying, is a shortstop, winning a short set, or a few games with SVB or Efren, means they play pool as good as them ??? :confused:

You know, sometimes I feel like this is NOT really a pool forum, comprised of 'hard core' pool enthusiast's !..There are a few, such as yourself and Chi-RJ, that make me feel like I may have wandered off into a chess forum or something ??? :rolleyes:
May I ask, when you feel like making me wrong in my belief's, does that mean you also think Jay Helfert, The Beard, CJ, Incardona, Buddy Hall, and all the other guys saying the same thing, are full of crap ?..

As for John B.,** he is a proponent of 'aiming systems', and practicing until your arms fall off..(so he doesn't count ! :eek:)..Trust me, John knows better, he just prefers arguing, to admitting ANYONE else may be right....About ANYTHING ! :p

Spimp13
01-14-2014, 09:36 AM
There are a few, such as yourself and Chi-RJ, that make me feel like I may have wandered off into a chess forum or something ??? :rolleyes:


$#%^$% Chess, it's too boring...well unless these are your pieces....ok, back to today's programming.

easy-e
01-14-2014, 10:04 AM
You know, sometimes I feel like this is NOT really a pool forum, comprised of 'hard core' pool enthusiast's !..There are a few, such as yourself and Chi-RJ, that make me feel like I may have wandered off into a chess forum or something ??? :rolleyes:
May I ask, when you feel like making me wrong in my belief's, does that mean you also think Jay Helfert, The Beard, CJ, Incardona, Buddy Hall, and all the other guys saying the same thing, are full of crap ?..

As for John B.,** he is a proponent of 'aiming systems', and practicing until your arms fall off..(so he doesn't count ! :eek:)..Trust me, John knows better, he just prefers arguing, to admitting ANYONE else may be right....About ANYTHING ! :p

Do you ever get tired of arguing with EVERYBODY?

JB Cases
01-14-2014, 10:16 AM
If that was even remotely true, pool players would change careers in a heartbeat... the 100th best golfer on the planet is living the life of Riley, the 100th best pool player might not know where his next meal is coming from.

You need NO physical athleticism to play pool.... with other sports that is half the battle..... thus why SVB could NEVER play NFL QB like Manning, and Manning might not ever play pool like SVB, but he would get a lot closer :)

and after a few years of training, I'm pretty sure a dedicated athlete like Manning would NOT embarrass himself in a tournament,,, prolly not gonna get in the money, but embarrassed, hardly. SVB might not even survive training camp :) No offense to SVB, I'm not thinking I would either !!!

I disagree that you don't need any athleticism to play pool. That's simply not true. Anytime an activity requires stamina and dexterity then that activity requires some degree of athleticism. Pool definitely requires that. If we actually chart the distance players walk around the table and the number of times they bend and the positions they have to assume then it's quite athletic. Not to mention the coupling of focus combined with physical control over one's movements. The very fact that the slightest twitch is the difference between a make and a miss is a prime example of how much athletic ability is needed.

A pool player faces not only the task of sending a ball to a target but also the task of sending it away from the target to a favorable location, over and over and over in a single game. In just about every other sport the task is much simpler than in pool in my opinion. It's just that in pool it LOOKS much easier because of the constrained space, the skill of good players, and the fact that EVERYONE thinks that they can play pool because they don't know what pool is really like at the higher levels.

But is pool actually harder than other sports?

I say no. And the reason is because I don't feel that anything is intrinsically harder to master than anything else IF a person is interested and motivated enough. There was an experiment done in India where kids were given a computer with ZERO instructions on how to use it. The computer was in english. The kids spoke no english. They taught themselves how to use the computer completely by themselves and learned english in the process. Then in a followup experiment the kids were given a difficult microbiology problem to solve with ZERO grounding in science whatsoever and in six months they didn't solve the problem but they all had a great working knowledge of microbiology.

Desire + Opportunity is what makes experts in any field or sport. Out of the experts what makes the best of the best? More desire maybe. More heart? More drive.

If you have a bad back like me you are keenly aware how much physical ability is required to play pool.

Lastly, there are some very athletic fat people out there. I used to be a professional high diver. One of my signature dives on the board was called a spotter. Very few divers do them because they are dangerous. I did mine in shows on a 9ft high springboard in an 18ft wide pool with the board very near a ten foot ledge. Hit the board wrong and you are flying at the ground from 18ft.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUzxfwVFHUg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxYKJYj9vcM

The company I worked for was called Maxwells. Dean Maxwell was the founder's son. He weighed north of 250 maybe 300lbs. He did the spotters as well. Gracefully.

This was pretty much what I did in the show - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOhYYe9_55g And the fire dive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOhYYe9_55g

JB Cases
01-14-2014, 10:19 AM
You know, sometimes I feel like this is NOT really a pool forum, comprised of 'hard core' pool enthusiast's !..There are a few, such as yourself and Chi-RJ, that make me feel like I may have wandered off into a chess forum or something ??? :rolleyes:
May I ask, when you feel like making me wrong in my belief's, does that mean you also think Jay Helfert, The Beard, CJ, Incardona, Buddy Hall, and all the other guys saying the same thing, are full of crap ?..

As for John B.,** he is a proponent of 'aiming systems', and practicing until your arms fall off..(so he doesn't count ! :eek:)..Trust me, John knows better, he just prefers arguing, to admitting ANYONE else may be right....About ANYTHING ! :p

I bet you $1000 that I can find more posts where I admit I am wrong than posts where you admit you are wrong.

In fact I will bet you my $1000 to your $200 that I can find more UNEDITED posts where I admit I am wrong than you have doing the same.

Care to gamble on your words? Or would you just like to save the money and go ahead and admit you're wrong for the first time EVER on this forum?

one stroke
01-14-2014, 10:32 AM
You know, sometimes I feel like this is NOT really a pool forum, comprised of 'hard core' pool enthusiast's !..There are a few, such as yourself and Chi-RJ, that make me feel like I may have wandered off into a chess forum or something ??? :rolleyes:

May I ask, when you feel like making me wrong in my belief's, does that mean you also think Jay Helfert, The Beard, CJ, Incardona, Buddy Hall, and all the other guys saying the same thing, are full of crap ?..As for John B.,** he is a proponent of 'aiming systems', and practicing until your arms fall off..(so he doesn't count ! :eek:)..Trust me, John knows better, he just prefers arguing, to admitting ANYONE else may be right....About ANYTHING !

Most of the people arguing the pool side are biased in there opinion
so what answer do you think you will get
Winning a race to 9 or 11 would be the same as 18 holes IMHO
Pro players enter regionals tourneys and get beat all the time its simply not that uncommon ,, if fact I have beat a lower level pro myself who was the UPA rookie of the yr

Pool players like the ones you mention who compare themselves to a pro golfer is simply delusional ,,how many Pro pool players get instructions on a routine basis from the time they are a adolescent thru there playing carer
Virtually every pro golfer has a coach some even have a sports shrink on top if that
Tiger woods was a hack just a couple yrs back till finally getting a coach that could straighten out some of his swing flaws

It has nothing to do with being a enthusiast and every thing to do with being a realist
I still play at home some pro ams and SBX every yr in fact I'm trying to hook up with Scott Lee next month for my first lesson at 53 so don't think I don't luv the game because I don't agree with you or others because that's far from the truth

1

SJDinPHX
01-14-2014, 10:37 AM
Do you ever get tired of arguing with EVERYBODY?

Actually, I am trying to catch John Barton and CJ...I am about 15,000 posts behind, because I keep getting interrupted by certain people I am not even talking to !...(if the shoe fits........)

CJ Wiley
01-14-2014, 10:38 AM
It's proven that the happiest people only need the necessities in life, and aspiring artists, musicians, and athletes are no exception. I've been told many times that the greatest Filipino players are ALWAYS the ones that had to work the hardest because they were from modest backgrounds......Bustemante and Reyes are prime examples.

The "difference that made the difference" with me was the stage (17-21) of my life that I was willing to do ANYTHING to be the best.....this meant pool was my #1 priority every day and I ate, drank, and lived the game....during these years I believe my pool training was {one of} the most strenuous in the world. Being number one in the world was my goal, also knowing when I achieved it life would draw me into another field of endeavors.

I don't necessarily believe in predestination, however, I do believe we were all "wired" to be great at something, it's just a matter of matching that desire with the activity, destiny, or profession.

The Game is the Teacher







If that was even remotely true, pool players would change careers in a heartbeat... the 100th best golfer on the planet is living the life of Riley, the 100th best pool player might not know where his next meal is coming from.

You need NO physical athleticism to play pool.... with other sports that is half the battle..... thus why SVB could NEVER play NFL QB like Manning, and Manning might not ever play pool like SVB, but he would get a lot closer :)

and after a few years of training, I'm pretty sure a dedicated athlete like Manning would NOT embarrass himself in a tournament,,, prolly not gonna get in the money, but embarrassed, hardly. SVB might not even survive training camp :) No offense to SVB, I'm not thinking I would either !!!

easy-e
01-14-2014, 10:46 AM
Actually, I am trying to catch John Barton and CJ...I am about 15,000 posts behind, because I keep getting interrupted by certain people I am not even talking to !...(if the shoe fits........)

I'm just baffled you are spending your final days on a Internet forum.

one stroke
01-14-2014, 11:06 AM
It's proven that the happiest people only need the necessities in life, and aspiring artists, musicians, and athletes are no exception. I've been told many times that the greatest Filipino players are ALWAYS the ones that had to work the hardest because they were from modest backgrounds......Bustemante and Reyes are prime examples.

The "difference that made the difference" with me was the stage (17-21) of my life that I was willing to do ANYTHING to be the best.....this meant pool was my #1 priority every day and I ate, drank, and lived the game....during these years I believe my pool training was {one of} the most strenuous in the world. Being number one in the world was my goal, also knowing when I achieved it life would draw me into another field of endeavors.

I don't necessarily believe in predestination, however, I do believe we were all "wired" to be great at something, it's just a matter of matching that desire with the activity, destiny, or profession.

The Game is the Teacher

How did you handle not reaching your goal;)


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Rackemep
01-14-2014, 11:19 AM
How did you handle not reaching your goal;)


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CJ did win a world championship ...I would say his goal was reached

JB Cases
01-14-2014, 11:33 AM
Tiger woods was a hack just a couple yrs back till finally getting a coach that could straighten out some of his swing flaws

1

Do you even realize the foolishness of what you type?

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/tigertime1.html

SJDinPHX
01-14-2014, 11:58 AM
I bet you $1000 that I can find more posts where I admit I am wrong than posts where you admit you are wrong.

John, John, John....I am not about to research your 20,000 posts trying to prove you wrong !...Surely in all your "highly opinionated, I am perfect" posts, you must have been wrong at LEAST once ! (I have just NEVER seen you admit it)

I, on the other hand, have never had to apologize for being wrong, simply because I have NEVER been wrong ;)..So I would be foolish to take your bet ! ...Nice try though ! :thumbup:

PS...Now we are back to the ROC John Barton boat !:sorry:

jburkm002
01-14-2014, 12:11 PM
I think Jeopardy is a much harder game.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

scottycoyote
01-14-2014, 12:12 PM
I believe many people think pool just happens naturally, and so if they arent good at it, they just arent, while those who are good at it were just born that way. Case in point, the other day there was a girl in the room trying to learn, and a pretty good player was trying to teach her tips etc. He was talking to her about foot placement, etc. Well later on the girl was back in (the player wasnt around) and she was laughing about how crazy it was that he was talking to her about where her feet go, and that it shouldnt matter. Another player agreed with her, and a third player said "yeah, pool cant be taught you just have to learn it on your own". These were all people who play quite a bit of pool, and one of them is actually a decent player.

Im not saying you cant learn a lot on your own, and you can even get by with bad fundamentals (we all know lots of pros with less than perfect form), but this attitude that its not teachable really holds people back imo

Island Drive
01-14-2014, 12:17 PM
I believe many people think pool just happens naturally, and so if they arent good at it, they just arent, while those who are good at it were just born that way. Case in point, the other day there was a girl in the room trying to learn, and a pretty good player was trying to teach her tips etc. He was talking to her about foot placement, etc. Well later on the girl was back in (the player wasnt around) and she was laughing about how crazy it was that he was talking to her about where her feet go, and that it shouldnt matter. Another player agreed with her, and a third player said "yeah, pool cant be taught you just have to learn it on your own". These were all people who play quite a bit of pool, and one of them is actually a decent player.

Im not saying you cant learn a lot on your own, and you can even get by with bad fundamentals (we all know lots of pros with less than perfect form), but this attitude that its not teachable really holds people back imo

Stupid people do stupid things....

one stroke
01-14-2014, 12:23 PM
Do you even realize the foolishness of what you type?

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/tigertime1.html
Foolishness hardly ,, unlike you who deals in research and Scientific research in things that can't be proven ,, it is a fact that Tigers game was in the gutter falling out of the top 50 finishing a whopping 30 strokes behind Hunter Mayham on his way to a dismal second to last finish in the world golf championships
So yes by Tigers standards Hack would be being kind
Of course this is all in text of a discussion on how much importance a coach is in golf so important that if not for one the former best golfer in the world never would have had a whiff of that ranking ever again
Now you mister if I practice as much as Shane I will play like him surly understands that


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JB Cases
01-14-2014, 12:31 PM
John, John, John....I am not about to research your 20,000 posts trying to prove you wrong !...Surely in all your "highly opinionated, I am perfect" posts, you must have been wrong at LEAST once ! (I have just NEVER seen you admit it)

I, on the other hand, have never had to apologize for being wrong, simply because I have NEVER been wrong ;)..So I would be foolish to take your bet ! ...Nice try though ! :thumbup:

PS...Now we are back to the ROC John Barton boat !:sorry:

See I can admit when I am wrong. For example, I thought that you have been wrong on many points but now that you tell me you have never been wrong I can say that I was wrong about you being wrong.

one stroke
01-14-2014, 12:43 PM
CJ did win a world championship ...I would say his goal was reached

One of several that yr and made for ESPN


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Rackemep
01-14-2014, 12:48 PM
One of several that yr and made for ESPN


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So you're saying that it doesn't count?

one stroke
01-14-2014, 01:07 PM
I think you're right. Judging by your posts the only thing that separates you and the rest of humanity is that every other human is at least 100 points above you. Therefore the intelligence gene is not present in you.

Otherwise you would have the capability to comprehend what you read. You would also have the ability to go out and increase your intelligence by doing your own research. These skills are obviously beyond your biological capabilities so the conclusion I draw is that you are correct, some people, like you, are just born stupid and doomed to stay that way.

I would have said that the only thing that separates us is a desire to learn and expand your mind but sadly I can see that this is not a possibility for you. My deepest condolences Mark.

Meanwhile, for myself, I, and everyone around me now can see the benefits of increased focused practice. The difference in my game from four weeks ago until today with an average of four hours of practice a day is clear to every one of my pool playing colleagues here. I am very sorry that you will obviously never get to experience the joy of improvement.

You have my pity sir.

So you have a 235 IQ then ,,, wow who would of thunk it ,,
I feel sorry for a guy like you who thinks reading and writing skills is the basis of intelligence ,, you might want to do a little research on that because obviously you haven't
I didn't get to some of the things I did in sports because I don't know the value of practice and obviously the improvement that came with it ,,
Now since you only played plug and play sports with the rest of the plug in players who could not play any real sports ,, you probably have always had a lot of room for improvement so I can see how you think like you do

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one stroke
01-14-2014, 01:10 PM
So you're saying that it doesn't count?

One Tourney win does not make u the best in the world
Are you suggesting he was better than Earl ,,, I hardly think so


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Rackemep
01-14-2014, 01:14 PM
One Tourney win does not make u the best in the world
Are you suggesting he was better than Earl ,,, I hardly think so


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I see your point...

JB Cases
01-14-2014, 01:50 PM
So you have a 235 IQ then ,,, wow who would of thunk it ,,
I feel sorry for a guy like you who thinks reading and writing skills is the basis of intelligence ,, you might want to do a little research on that because obviously you haven't
I didn't get to some of the things I did in sports because I don't know the value of practice and obviously the improvement that came with it ,,
Now since you only played plug and play sports with the rest of the plug in players who could not play any real sports ,, you probably have always had a lot of room for improvement so I can see how you think like you do

1

I am probably a 50 which makes you -50.

Also, how do you know I didn't play team sports? I mentioned my diving because you assumed once before that I wasn't athletic. I find it hilarious how you try and denigrate individual sports like swimming and diving as if the athletes in those sports are somehow not as athletic as those on teams or somehow they are genetically lesser human beings.

Any person who considers individual disciplines like diving, track and field, gymnastics etc.. as not real sports can't be taken seriously anyway. Here SJD I was wrong again, Mark's IQ is not -50 it must be way lower than that.

All I know Mark is that you have an open invitation to play ANY pool game for as much as you can stand. Regardless of where we stack up against the pros and how much either of us could possibly improve I am certain that I am now far better than you and that I will always be far better than you even if you put in as much practice as you could.

I think you are correct that in your case you are genetically incapable of improvement.

But in case you ever would like to test your skills against mine and you can provide a consent form that you are gambling of your own free will I will be happy to let you gain some experience for a fee.

Pool is a difficult a sport for you Mark. And talking pool logically is damn near impossible for you. You might want to conserve the meager brain cells you have left and try easier activities. My daughter has some unused coloring books that I would be happy to send you. :-)

one stroke
01-14-2014, 01:54 PM
I am probably a 50 which makes you -50.

Also, how do you know I didn't play team sports? I mentioned my diving because you assumed once before that I wasn't athletic. I find it hilarious how you try and denigrate individual sports like swimming and diving as if the athletes in those sports are somehow not as athletic as those on teams or somehow they are genetically lesser human beings.

Any person who considers individual disciplines like diving, track and field, gymnastics etc.. as not real sports can't be taken seriously anyway. Here SJD I was wrong again, Mark's IQ is not -50 it must be way lower than that.

All I know Mark is that you have an open invitation to play ANY pool game for as much as you can stand. Regardless of where we stack up against the pros and how much either of us could possibly improve I am certain that I am now far better than you and that I will always be far better than you even if you put in as much practice as you could.

I think you are correct that in your case you are genetically incapable of improvement.

But in case you ever would like to test your skills against mine and you can provide a consent form that you are gambling of your own free will I will be happy to let you gain some experience for a fee.

Pool is a difficult a sport for you Mark. And talking pool logically is damn near impossible for you. You might want to conserve the meager brain cells you have left and try easier activities. My daughter has some unused coloring books that I would be happy to send you. :-)

I would believe your 50 but scientific research says its natural for confident people to over estimate their ability
So their is naturally a deduction from there
What are you John 5' 5" in heals what did you play midget football
Oh and for the record I ran track and was the fastest 50m swimmer freshman yr of high school

I already said I would be more than happy to play some 9 ball on the Bar Boxes at SBX


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JB Cases
01-14-2014, 01:55 PM
One Tourney win does not make u the best in the world
Are you suggesting he was better than Earl ,,, I hardly think so


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It does at that moment. CJ is one of the best players that has ever played the game though. Most bonafide champions I know have a TON of respect for CJ's game then AND now.

Was/is CJ "better" than Earl? In tournament victories no, as a road player, maybe as good. Who knows? Both of them are elite players and both can speak about pool from a perspective that you can't even dream of attaining.

You would have a better shot of climbing Mt. Everest naked and surviving before you could do what CJ has done in pool Mark.

JB Cases
01-14-2014, 02:09 PM
SBX bar box 9 ball races to 9 100 a set


1

I am sorry but that rate is too cheap for me at this time. My time at the Super Billiards Expo is too precious and expensive to spend with you. However if you're willing to post five set's worth I will make a point to come to the pool room of your choosing sometime after the SBE and we can make a day of it.

Then you can spend all day explaining to me in person why you think I am an inferior human being to you, how you are genetically superior because you played team sports and you think I didn't and so on..... indulge the customer I was always taught.

one stroke
01-14-2014, 02:15 PM
It does at that moment. CJ is one of the best players that has ever played the game though. Most bonafide champions I know have a TON of respect for CJ's game then AND now.

Was/is CJ "better" than Earl? In tournament victories no, as a road player, maybe as good. Who knows? Both of them are elite players and both can speak about pool from a perspective that you can't even dream of attaining.

You would have a better shot of climbing Mt. Everest naked and surviving before you could do what CJ has done in pool Mark.

I never said he was not a great player , the comment was the best in the world
Yes your right that's more than I ever have or will accomplish
I just glad that does not keep me from getting to heaven any faster;)


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ChicagoRJ
01-14-2014, 02:16 PM
I think Jeopardy is a much harder game.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

TRU DAT, but any pool player would win hands down if they ever bothered to show up for the cheese :)

one stroke
01-14-2014, 02:19 PM
I am sorry but that rate is too cheap for me at this time. My time at the Super Billiards Expo is too precious and expensive to spend with you. However if you're willing to post five set's worth I will make a point to come to the pool room of your choosing sometime after the SBE and we can make a day of it.

Then you can spend all day explaining to me in person why you think I am an inferior human being to you, how you are genetically superior because you played team sports and you think I didn't and so on..... indulge the customer I was always taught.

I guess my dumb ass does not know what any amount is:confused:

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ChicagoRJ
01-14-2014, 02:27 PM
I disagree that you don't need any athleticism to play pool. That's simply not true. Anytime an activity requires stamina and dexterity then that activity requires some degree of athleticism. ]

Of course, it requires some, just not much. I taught a 60 yr old woman to play pool a few years ago, she was tired of her male buddies at the "home" pounding her ( no pun intended) and they were about to join an APA league together..... she is pounding them now. She is 62 and an APA 4 and doing quite well competing with pool players 30 years younger then she.

If she had asked what else do I teach, and if I told her I'm a baseball coach, and provide hitting and fielding lessons, I would have told her there is not enough money I would take to bother trying to teach her.......

I charge more twice as much for baseball lessons as I do for pool lessons, I usually am not in the habit of turning down anyone's money, but I'm also not gonna steal it either....and thus why I have to tell some parents, sorry, your kid is NOT going to be getting a college scholarship, and he might need to start studying more :)

JB Cases
01-14-2014, 02:31 PM
Of course, it requires some, just not much. I taught a 60 yr old woman to play pool a few years ago, she was tired of her male buddies at the "home" pounding her ( no pun intended) and they were about to join an APA league together..... she is pounding them now. She is 62 and an APA 4 and doing quite well competing with pool players 30 years younger then she.

If she had asked what else do I teach, and if I told her I'm a baseball coach, and provide hitting and fielding lessons, I would have told her there is not enough money I would take to bother trying to teach her.......

I charge more twice as much for baseball lessons as I do for pool lessons, I usually am not in the habit of turning down anyone's money, but I'm also not gonna steal it either....and thus why I have to tell some parents, sorry, your kid is NOT going to be getting a college scholarship, and he might need to start studying more :)

I think that the point where you have to tell a parent that is the point where you know the kid doesn't really WANT to play high level baseball. IMO. Because I think that if a kid did really want it then they would put in whatever effort it took to do that and you as a coach would reward that effort with your mentoring.

I think also we should understand that we are talking about different levels. Pool at high levels requires some fine motor control. Pool at average levels not so much. I just sold a case to a man who is 70 and who started playing when he was 66. He is currently one of the best shooters in his area and loves the game intensely. He devours everything he can learn about the game. Certainly he is not going to be physically capable of spending an hour on the court with 20 year olds but he can spend an hour on the table with any of them. I didn't mean to say it requires as much or more than any other sport just that it does in fact require some athletic ability even if it's not sweat inducing strenuous.

AND as I always say, if you are not sweating when you are playing then you are not betting enough.

:-)

ChicagoRJ
01-14-2014, 02:37 PM
You know, sometimes I feel like this is NOT really a pool forum, comprised of 'hard core' pool enthusiast's !..There are a few, such as yourself and Chi-RJ, that make me feel like I may have wandered off into a chess forum or something ??? :rolleyes:
May I ask, when you feel like making me wrong in my belief's, does that mean you also think Jay Helfert, The Beard, CJ, Incardona, Buddy Hall, and all the other guys saying the same thing, are full of crap ?..

! :p

SJD, just because this is a pool forum, does not mean we should all agree. I mean, if the OP said pool is one tough b1tch to learn, I prolly would not even be here. but to say it is one of the toughest EVER.... yikes :)

And I can find some HOF baseball and football players that say their sport is harder than pool, I really doubt you will give their word much weight, would you ?

And I have been arguing with Beard since I was a teenager, as I grew up in the poolroom that my dad and he owned together. Ask him, he will tell ya what a smart arse I was . But of course, I''m a changed man now :)

I love pool, I play in leagues, I play in tourneys, I've played in Vegas, I've played in DCC twice, I will be at Red Shoes on Saturday for the 1pk tourney, I have a 9 foot table in my basement, I collect signed billiard balls, I was Earl's "cornerman" at the Bad Blood event, and I'm an ACS advanced instructor, I give free lessons at the local teen center every month, started/ran one of the biggest ACS leagues in the Chicago area, and I hung out with some of pools "elites", like Beard, Bugs, Artie, Billy, etc..... so, please don't assume because I'm taking a stance that is counter to yours that I'm just some lonely internet pool knocker and NOT the POOL NUT that I am :)

JB Cases
01-14-2014, 02:37 PM
I guess my dumb ass does not know what any amount is:confused:

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The amount is fine, $100 per set. I would like it if you would be willing to post five set's worth, that's 5x100. But if you can't afford that then I completely understand and will still be willing to come and play you when it's convenient for me to do so. Please understand that I consider you to be one of the most awful people on the forum so I would be completely irresponsible to consider giving you any of my expo time over my many friends that I only get to see during the expo.

But when I am passing through your location I will be happy to take an hour out to play you one set if that's all you can afford or are willing to bet. Either I win some lunch money or not but I think it's a good shot that I win based on your postings.

ChicagoRJ
01-14-2014, 02:42 PM
I think that the point where you have to tell a parent that is the point where you know the kid doesn't really WANT to play high level baseball. IMO. Because I think that if a kid did really want it then they would put in whatever effort it took to do that and you as a coach would reward that effort with your mentoring.

Not necessarily true, some kids just don't have the eye, or the hand quickness to succeed in the game... We are you gonna put a short, slow left handed kid that can't pitch in college baseball ??

The only spots open are the OF, but he's too slow, and you can improve your speed, a little through specialized training, but a slow guy will always be a slow guy...he just won't be the slowest guy. I mean, the kid was a decent hitter, but most colleges are not giving scholarships away for the DH position for only "decent", that position requires a whole lot of power...And what about the other kids with a great glove, and run like the dickens, but just does not have the hand quickness to catch up to a 80 mph plus fastball thrown in a varsity HS game.... in a batting cage, lots of guys can catch up cause they are "guessing" and "cheating", and know the exact height it's coming everytime....

But this kid loves the game, and heck, I even told him there are leagues made for 18 year olds and up... the MABL, and he can play until he's 65 if he wants..... so he never had to give up the game, he just has to give up the idea that someone is gonna pay him to do it :)

PS: My son tries out for his HS team next month (freshman). He works out 3 to 4 days a week, weights and cardio designed specifically for baseball players... and then 3 days a week indoors to practice fielding, throwing, pitching, and batting..... But one bad tryout, and he's NOT on the team... he would be pissed to say the least, but he understands, you have to be able to give your best under a lot of pressure.....

There are NO guarantees just because you want something bad enough...

one stroke
01-14-2014, 03:24 PM
The amount is fine, $100 per set. I would like it if you would be willing to post five set's worth, that's 5x100. But if you can't afford that then I completely understand and will still be willing to come and play you when it's convenient for me to do so. Please understand that I consider you to be one of the most awful people on the forum so I would be completely irresponsible to consider giving you any of my expo time over my many friends that I only get to see during the expo.

But when I am passing through your location I will be happy to take an hour out to play you one set if that's all you can afford or are willing to bet. Either I win some lunch money or not but I think it's a good shot that I win based on your postings.

Well if your opinion of me meant anything I would not fire rounds across your bow ,,however since you have tried on many occasions to belittle me because my beliefs don't align with yours I have no problem with it ,,, but I'm not the only one am I John its seems you have similar problems with many on this site ,, take a gander at my postings which I'm sure you have and tell me John how many other people do I argue to the extent that I do you ,,
How many times have you been banned of this site and how many other sites like one pocket . org do you offend people
Your right John its all me

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Dave714
01-14-2014, 05:16 PM
I always thought golf was tougher than pool to get good at. Shot in high 70's in golf several times and was a decent short stop in pool 15 yrs ago.

Spimp13
01-14-2014, 05:20 PM
I'm beginning to think winning an argument on AZ is harder than pool.

JB Cases
01-14-2014, 07:09 PM
Well if your opinion of me meant anything I would not fire rounds across your bow ,,however since you have tried on many occasions to belittle me because my beliefs don't align with yours I have no problem with it ,,, but I'm not the only one am I John its seems you have similar problems with many on this site ,, take a gander at my postings which I'm sure you have and tell me John how many other people do I argue to the extent that I do you ,,
How many times have you been banned of this site and how many other sites like one pocket . org do you offend people
Your right John its all me

1

Does this mean we can't play? I just find you to be a horrible person. Still though I would be happy to see where I stand with you if I happen to be in your town and have an hour or so to kill. You're not the only horrible person out of the 40k members here just the one I happen to be conversing with at the moment.

As for being banned, I have been put in the corner several times for speaking my mind. Now I know how how to do it. I was never banned for making racist and bigoted comments as you were.

Anyway, as I said I agree with you that it's all genetic, even if the scientific evidence points otherwise in most cases. I agree that some people are just genetically stupid and that you seem to be an example of that. See, I can change my mind.

Now, can we play in your hometown on your pet table or not?

one stroke
01-14-2014, 07:52 PM
Does this mean we can't play? I just find you to be a horrible person. Still though I would be happy to see where I stand with you if I happen to be in your town and have an hour or so to kill. You're not the only horrible person out of the 40k members here just the one I happen to be conversing with at the moment.

As for being banned, I have been put in the corner several times for speaking my mind. Now I know how how to do it. I was never banned for making racist and bigoted comments as you were.

Anyway, as I said I agree with you that it's all genetic, even if the scientific evidence points otherwise in most cases. I agree that some people are just genetically stupid and that you seem to be an example of that. See, I can change my mind.

Now, can we play in your hometown on your pet table or not?

How ironic I was just coming around to your way of thinking because genetically someone can not reach your level of stupidity without at least 10,000 hrs of practice
You have finally proven a point ,,,

Yep come in down we can play over at Bobby's place since I'm obviously no where near your caliber after you beat me you and him can hook up for the high stakes gambling that you claim to love so much

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JB Cases
01-14-2014, 07:57 PM
How ironic I was just coming around to your way of thinking because genetically someone can not reach your level of stupidity without at least 10,000 hrs of practice
You have finally proven a point ,,,

Yep come in down we can play over at Bobby's place since I'm obviously no where near your caliber after you beat me you and him can hook up for the high stakes gambling that you claim to love so much

1

You finally made a funny. Blind squirrels and nuts and all that... did you have help?

Bobby can get played. AFTER he apologizes to my wife.

CJ Wiley
01-14-2014, 10:44 PM
One Tourney win does not make u the best in the world
Are you suggesting he was better than Earl ,,, I hardly think so
1

I guess we all get lucky once in a while.....;)

https://scontent-b-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/v/1520797_10152143607534520_398193759_n.jpg?oh=df9c8 8feda1e48701895f828af176efe&oe=52D827A8

CJ Wiley
01-15-2014, 12:50 PM
It does at that moment. CJ is one of the best players that has ever played the game though. Most bonafide champions I know have a TON of respect for CJ's game then AND now.

Was/is CJ "better" than Earl? In tournament victories no, as a road player, maybe as good. Who knows? Both of them are elite players and both can speak about pool from a perspective that you can't even dream of attaining.

You would have a better shot of climbing Mt. Everest naked and surviving before you could do what CJ has done in pool Mark.

Earl and I have played many times for a LOT of money.....I've been very fortunate against him, I don't think anyone was the favorite against Earl in his prime. I put a "7" and a "3" on him in the US OPEN one time (race to 11) and I still thought he might come back and beat me.....he's never out of a match, no matter what the score is (unless he loses interest).

AtLarge
01-15-2014, 01:41 PM
CJ did win a world championship ...I would say his goal was reached

To help you in making your judgment, here is some information about that event: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=4527950&postcount=112

one stroke
01-15-2014, 01:44 PM
Earl and I have played many times for a LOT of money.....I've been very fortunate against him, I don't think anyone was the favorite against Earl in his prime. I put a "7" and a "3" on him in the US OPEN one time (race to 11) and I still thought he might come back and beat me.....he's never out of a match, no matter what the score is (unless he loses interest).

I have some very good success against more than a couple of guys that are better players than me that I can't really explain ,, maybe it was my style of play or maybe I got in their head who knows but against the field he was far better
There for I don't measure a player by head to head match ups


1

JB Cases
01-15-2014, 01:56 PM
I have some very good success against more than a couple of guys that are better players than me that I can't really explain ,, maybe it was my style of play or maybe I got in their head who knows but against the field he was far better
There for I don't measure a player by head to head match ups


1

Your stories don't count. In pool you are a super nobody. No one is going to write about you in magazines or seek you out for interviews. How you measure a player is of zero consequence as is everything you think or know about playing pool. You, like most of us, are a banger with a banger's perspective, which is very limited.

CJ Wiley
01-15-2014, 02:09 PM
I have some very good success against more than a couple of guys that are better players than me that I can't really explain ,, maybe it was my style of play or maybe I got in their head who knows but against the field he was far better
There for I don't measure a player by head to head match ups
1

Yes, consistency is important as well....Efren did beat me in the Finals, however, I got lucky to win against him in the California State Championships.

https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1/1392098_780864315272940_2063133513_n.jpg

RussPrince
01-15-2014, 02:13 PM
lol 238 (including this one) replies. you guys still yammering on about baseball and crap? wgas?

CJ Wiley
01-15-2014, 02:24 PM
To help you in making your judgment, here is some information about that event: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=4527950&postcount=112

Thanks, AtLarge -

Do you have any information about the following two years? (97 and 98) on ESPN...I can't remember who won.

one stroke
01-15-2014, 02:25 PM
Your stories don't count. In pool you are a super nobody. No one is going to write about you in magazines or seek you out for interviews. How you measure a player is of zero consequence as is everything you think or know about playing pool. You, like most of us, are a banger with a banger's perspective, which is very limited.
Any idiot even you knows this to be true it happens in all sports ,, I'm sure you can dig up some scientific research that bares this out ,,
I guess anyone who knows sports has to be a previous pro ,,
Your something its know wonder why so many people don't like you
You don't know squat about my pool gambling the only thing you know is what I have put out there for public knowledge
If I were you I would not be wasting one second on this forum I would be putting every second I could into my banger 1 pocket game so I don't do what I do best that being making a fool out of my self ,, but old habits die hard

1

one stroke
01-15-2014, 02:28 PM
Yes, consistency is important as well....Efren did beat me in the Finals, however, I got lucky to win against him in the California State Championships.

https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1/1392098_780864315272940_2063133513_n.jpg

Who was talking consistency ,, we are talking Wins

1

JB Cases
01-15-2014, 02:33 PM
Who was talking consistency ,, we are talking Wins

1

Which you obviously know nothing about. You talking about how hard pool is or isn't with CJ as if you belong in the same conversation is hilarious.

Only here can an APA 2 like you troll a champion.

CJ Wiley
01-15-2014, 02:36 PM
Which you obviously know nothing about. You talking about how hard pool is or isn't with CJ as if you belong in the same conversation is hilarious.

Only here can an APA 2 like you troll a champion.

This person's an "APA 2" ? hmmm, interesting, very, very, interesting....it's all clear now. :D

JB Cases
01-15-2014, 02:37 PM
This person's an "APA 2" ? hmmm, interesting, very, very, interesting.

I don't know, he might be a 4 but he talks like a 2. ;-)

whammo57
01-15-2014, 02:47 PM
Is it really though?

Strike the cue ball 1) in the right place 2) on the right line 3) at the right speed and you have it made.

Compare that to a sport like Supercross and see how it stacks up. In pool there's not even any threat of physical injury if your speed is off not so when you are coming up on a triple jump.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RwBOB5CdrY&feature=youtube_gdata_player


OMG why didn't I think of that .................Strike the cue ball 1) in the right place 2) on the right line 3) at the right speed and you have it made....

Brain surgery is a snap too......... the right knife... the right cut ... in the right place and you have it made........................

LOL

Kim

dudlock
01-15-2014, 02:55 PM
Your stories don't count. In pool you are a super nobody. No one is going to write about you in magazines or seek you out for interviews. How you measure a player is of zero consequence as is everything you think or know about playing pool. You, like most of us, are a banger with a banger's perspective, which is very limited.


His stories count as much as yours, you name calling troll. You are the one that needs to wake up. Wake up to the fact that Lou is going to steamroll you. Lou, by the way is going for a little tune up at the US Open One Pocket Tournament. The powers at the one pocket sites have sponsored him and asked him to represent. Do you know what an honor that is? He actually turned down more expense money and asked for it to go to others who might need more assistance. That's what kind of guy HE is. Not you. And no, there is no need to ask me to bet a bunch of more money on the match on line. You'll just call it off again, if somebody were to move one of your posts or something. But you can bet I'll be at Sandcastle, holding heavy when Iceberg Lou comes ripping through your little paper thin hull, and we won't be calling off anything after post time.

one stroke
01-15-2014, 03:15 PM
Which you obviously know nothing about. You talking about how hard pool is or isn't with CJ as if you belong in the same conversation is hilarious.

Only here can an APA 2 like you troll a champion.

Pot meet Kettle ,, I do have to admit you do work at your craft its know wonder someone had to put up a case to get some good words about you
But at the end of the day your in the same boat as me a banger wannabe ,, let me know when you reach Shane's speed LMFAO



1

one stroke
01-15-2014, 03:20 PM
His stories count as much as yours, you name calling troll. You are the one that needs to wake up. Wake up to the fact that Lou is going to steamroll you. Lou, by the way is going for a little tune up at the US Open One Pocket Tournament. The powers at the one pocket sites have sponsored him and asked him to represent. Do you know what an honor that is? He actually turned down more expense money and asked for it to go to others who might need more assistance. That's what kind of guy HE is. Not you. And no, there is no need to ask me to bet a bunch of more money on the match on line. You'll just call it off again, if somebody were to move one of your posts or something. But you can bet I'll be at Sandcastle, holding heavy when Iceberg Lou comes ripping through your little paper thin hull, and we won't be calling off anything after post time.

Lou better watch out according to my calculations John will have over the magic 10,000 of practice and will be playing Shane's speed Lou would be smart to not show up:rolleyes:

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BeiberLvr
01-15-2014, 03:29 PM
Luckily for John he doesn't need to play Shane's speed to beat Lou.

SJDinPHX
01-15-2014, 04:15 PM
Luckily for John he doesn't need to play Shane's speed to beat Lou.

Mr. Lvr, I will not try to hi-roll you with a large $$$$$$ wager !..Lets just do something like this...In the unlikely event that APA-3 Barton beats Lou, I will paint your house, AND wash your car, once a week, for 5 years ! :eek:

If Lou wins, all you have to do, is wash my windows, one time !...Hows that for giving odds ?.. You are obviously smitten by JB's ongoing line of BS.. It will not save him, or you, when its 'crunch time' ! :rolleyes:

SJD...Worlds greatest pool handicapper !

Sadly, this will be the ROC John Barton..again/still/yet !
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