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Bavafongoul
01-14-2014, 11:02 AM
There are two types of ivory cue joints in my opinion........Flat Faced & Piloted.

I know that there are ivory sleeve over steel cue joints but I view those to be faux ivory joints. Frankly, I 'd rather have
a joint made of Juma instead of an ivory sleeve if I had to choose between the two. But ivory cue joints have become
a pre-requisite for me and personally speaking, it's the only cue joint for me nowadays.

As you can see, I own a flat faced ivory joint Scruggs cue......Wow.....what an amazing hit and feel. I also own a Paul
Mottey cue that has one of his famous "piloted" ivory cue joints.......incredible play & feel as well. I have a new custom
being made that's due to be completed by March and it has a flat faced ivory cue joint. I can't imagine what the heck an
ivory sleeve offers versus the two ivory joints I play with.

There's a difference in the feel of my Scruggs and Mottey cues and I favor the feel of the flat faced ivory joint on my
Scruggs cue over my Mottey cue just a wee bit. And both cues weigh the same & have ivory ferrules with Kamui tips so
the comparison is very fair. That's why I ordered a flat faced ivory joint for my new cue with a Kamui tip. I know what I
like and what feels best to me so when it's a winning combination, you had better stick with it.

So I am asking what does a thin ivory collar over a stainless steel joint really accomplish? Is it essentially for the cue's
overall esthetics rather than performance and feel? I mean if you want the feel of an ivory joint, why not get one instead
of a just the look of an ivory cue joint. Maybe the ivory sleeve joint is more durable? However, my Mottey cue is 23 years
old and is in "perfect" condition so obviously piloted ivory joints are very durable, or at least Mottey's are.

So my conclusion is the ivory sleeve just attempts to change the appearance of a steel joint cue. From a performance
perspective, I'm imagining that an ivory sleeve cue basically plays the same as a stainless steel piloted joint and does not
come close to the feel of a flat faced ivory cue joint and most piloted steel joints.......I say most because Paul Mottey cues
are praised about having the best piloted ivory joint made but I do not know that to be factual.

I'd appreciate any knowledgeable AZers commenting on the difference of an ivory sleeve cue joint and AZers not in the know,
chime in any way as most of us, myself included, tend to do when we find the topic of interest. Everyone is entitled to their
opinions and but the bottom-line is that some matter a lot more than others.

SLIM
01-14-2014, 12:37 PM
Well, one thing we can tell from your post is that your opinion means a lot to you.

I understand wanting to praise your own cues.
Most of us have a deep warm feeling for the ones that we have.
I just dont get why you have to try & run down what someone else has or likes when doing so.

SLIM

$TAKE HOR$E
01-14-2014, 12:48 PM
Ivory over steel will play like a steel joint cue, no way around it. Those that speak so highly of how well the ivory sleeved cues play may be right but it has nothing to do with that joint combination. A solid ivory joint will play closer to a piloted ivory joint just like an ivory sleeved joint will play like a steel joint. Take Tascarella or Searing for instance, they would be a good example because they are really nice well constructed cues. It would be interesting to take two cues, an ivory sleeved and a steel joint and tape the joint then have say a hundred people shoot with them to see how many could tell the difference.

Ken_4fun
01-14-2014, 12:49 PM
Ivory over steel will play like a steel joint cue, no way around it. Those that speak so highly of how well the ivory sleeves cues play may be right but it has nothing to do with that joint combination. A solid ivory joint will play closer to a piloted ivory joint just like an ivory sleeved joint will play like a steel joint.

Agreed.

Ken

poolhustler
01-14-2014, 01:01 PM
I have tried to many cues to list, all types of joints.

My players now are and will always be FF Ivory, 3/8-10.

No two ways around it........

Bavafongoul
01-14-2014, 01:09 PM
Hey Slim.....I own some great cues admittedly......don't be jealous or bitter about it.
By the way, it's the billiard industry that considers Mottey's piloted ivory joints the best,
not me or are you ignorant about Paul Mottey's reputation as a famous cue-maker?

I asked a question about ivory sleeve and apparently you have no opinion so please
just move onto another thread you can assault and find fault with. Thanks to Stakehorse
and Ken_4fun for their posts and opinions. It great when someone understands the thread
and responds instead of just reacting to the poster like Slim's apparent penchant to do.

And by the way, you must have an aberrant mind to think this thread is running down what
someone has........I think phenolic cue joints are not the best joint and I do not care for them
at all......that's my opinion.....so in your mind I suppose that amounts to running down every
AZer that owns such a cue joint....... I can overlook your lack of cue expertise and overall
ignorance but your underlying motives appear to be suspect and tend to just be a personal
attack, But heck, it's a new year and I can give you a pass on that one, at least for now.

Bavafongoul
01-14-2014, 01:26 PM
Stakehorse....Ken...... does the shaft become a big factor?

I know wood used for shafts can vary and there's bound to be differences.
But if the cue joint played a little firmer, like I imagine the ivory collar design
would play, would a lighter shaft, say 3.5 ozs, feel and play softer or transmit
the feel/vibration better than a heavy shaft, say 4.3 ozs.. which I'm imagining
would amplify the firmness/stiffness of the play & feel of an ivory sleeve?

I also believe that the ivory sleeve joint design would play very close to a
piloted steel cue joint but I do not have a lot of experience playing with that
type of cue joint. I've seen them and they look pretty. Anyway, I've always
felt that it was a ivory joint fašade. The cue looks like it has an ivory joint but
the cue plays like a piloted steel joint..... a really firm hit. So I was curious if
using a lighter shaft with an ivory sleeve cue joint might soften the feel a little.

It seems like if a player liked the look and design of an ivory cue joint but did
not care for the softer hit and feel, then the ivory sleeve design was perfect.
It looks as nice as true ivory cue joint does and plays firm like a stainless steel
cue joint would......so it offers the appearance of ivory, hence my earlier referral
to it as a "faux" ivory cue joint.

Shooter08
01-14-2014, 01:43 PM
I have a additional question related to Ivory Joints. If you want the "hit" of ivory can it be achieved by using a LD shaft with an ivory joint or will the feel of the "hit" be more related to the ferrule. Being that Ivory ferrules are not used on LD shafts, can you have the best of both worlds? I think I have phrased this the way I want, but if it doesn't make sense feel free to interpret. THx

Bavafongoul
01-14-2014, 01:54 PM
Thanks Shooter.....great question.

I was wondering about the issue of the shafts and forgot to even think about LD shafts.
My preference in a shaft is for heavier weight shafts (4.0 ozs & heavier). I think these
play better with ivory joints....again, just my opinion.

The shafts hit and feel different.....I have 3 shafts for my Mottey......3.7 ozs. 4.1 ozs and
4.3 ozs and the heavier shafts just play a little better. My Scruggs shafts are all under
4.0 ozs at 3.7 and 3.8 ozs. but the cue has a flat faced joint so I think that works better
with shafts that aren't that heavy, or so it seems to me.

Now LD shafts I have zero experience with and all my cues have original shafts so it will
be interesting to see what type responses come forth.

mel_smOg
01-14-2014, 02:03 PM
I have a additional question related to Ivory Joints. If you want the "hit" of ivory can it be achieved by using a LD shaft with an ivory joint or will the feel of the "hit" be more related to the ferrule. Being that Ivory ferrules are not used on LD shafts, can you have the best of both worlds? I think I have phrased this the way I want, but if it doesn't make sense feel free to interpret. THx

Ivory joint has really specific feel, no matter what shaft is no it- I have had lots of cues with ivory joints and was playing with regular shafts and LD and the feel of ivory joint was still there with all shafts. I personally dont like it thats why I sold all cues with ivory joints but one (I wish I could change it, but I know I will not just because it will not be all original and cutting ivory joint is just not right)

Ivory ferrule has specific feel too but I in my opinion joint and taper of shafts affect the hit more

LuckyStroke
01-14-2014, 02:18 PM
I have a solid ivory jointed cue, flat faced with radial pin. It is also a full splice cue. These things together make for one hell of a hit. I have also hit with a piloted ivory cue made by the same maker as mine. I understand completely how you feel about ivory joints. The SS joint with an ivory sleeve must be for looks.

bbb
01-14-2014, 07:19 PM
hey guys dont shoot the messenger
dan janes years ago taped up the joints of cues with different joints AND NO PRO COULD TELL THE DIFERENCE......:yikes:
i can tell you using ob1 shafts on many butts of different joints and pins they all play the same
although weight and balance makes them feel different
its the tip and shaft that makes the difference
jmho
icbw

Badbeat13
01-14-2014, 08:34 PM
[QUOTE=Bavafongoul;4542653]There are two types of ivory cue joints in my opinion........Flat Faced & Piloted.

You forgot the 3rd type. Lambros 'Ivory Ultra Joint', wow!!!! I think Mike (hope you're doing well) should patent this name as well.

I have an 8 point Lambros with this joint and it also has 1 inch ivory ferrules. Incredible player with the Kamui Black Soft on shaft 1 and not to shabby with a Triangle on shaft 2.

I had an Ultra Joint without ivory and it played fantastic, but still not on par with this ivory 8 pointer.

I'm a fan of any type of ivory joint, but I'm a bigger fan of ivory ferrules. I just love the hit and the feedback that you get from ivory ferrules and they sound great, too.

I can't answer the question you posed, but I wanted to tell you about that Lambros. I'm sure there's several out there somewhere, but most aren't ivory.

By the way, I acquired a Mottey recently with a piloted ivory joint. Rock solid hit to say the least. Paul's piloted ivory joint is awesome. You better finesse the rock around with that joint for the most part or you'll overrun shape, but when you need that power stroke it's definitely got it. Wish I never would have got rid of my ebony Bill McDaniel with a piloted ivory joint and ivory ferrules(damn!!!!). That cue hit 2 tons, just like this Mottey.

Have a goodn', Jerry

Scott Lee
01-14-2014, 10:52 PM
Larry...I don't recall Dan Janes doing this, but Bob Meucci sure did. He had most of the top pros using his cues, and he did the test with 8-10 of them. As you mentioned, none of them could tell a difference.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

hey guys dont shoot the messenger
dan janes years ago taped up the joints of cues with different joints AND NO PRO COULD TELL THE DIFERENCE......:yikes:
i can tell you using ob1 shafts on many butts of different joints and pins they all play the same
although weight and balance makes them feel different
its the tip and shaft that makes the difference
jmho
icbw

dom_poppa
01-15-2014, 12:04 AM
I use to have a cue that's ivory joint flat face but can't recall whether it was sleeved or a solid joint. It was a long time ago and I believe it could have been sleeved because I cracked it from breaking with it.

I remember it definitely felt different shooting with it. It's feels strong without the stiff feel from a steel joint.

Can someone tell me what are we exactly feeling here? Lighter hit? The same with ferrules too, what are the benefits.

bbb
01-15-2014, 04:49 AM
Larry...I don't recall Dan Janes doing this, but Bob Meucci sure did. He had most of the top pros using his cues, and he did the test with 8-10 of them. As you mentioned, none of them could tell a difference.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

scott
dan janes told me the story.
he may have said meucci did it and i forgot

bbb
01-15-2014, 05:05 AM
fwiw
the op asked the question in the ask the cuemakers section
to me the gist was you could not tell the difference in joint type
come to your own conclusions
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=348323

Sealegs50
01-15-2014, 07:04 AM
So I am asking what does a thin ivory collar over a stainless steel joint really accomplish? Is it essentially for the cue's
overall esthetics rather than performance and feel? I mean if you want the feel of an ivory joint, why not get one instead
of a just the look of an ivory cue joint. Maybe the ivory sleeve joint is more durable? However, my Mottey cue is 23 years
old and is in "perfect" condition so obviously piloted ivory joints are very durable, or at least Mottey's are.

So my conclusion is the ivory sleeve just attempts to change the appearance of a steel joint cue.

My assumption was that a steel inner sleeve protected the ivory joint for tightly fit piloted shafts. So you can have the looks of ivory and the tight compression fit of stainless steel. It would serve a similar purpose as a fiber pad is supposed to provide for a ferrule. Whether you need either of those will be the subject of polarized debate.

I'm not a cuemaker, so what do I know?

Ken_4fun
01-15-2014, 07:10 AM
This has been on AZ hundreds of times.

But to me importance of hit works from the tip back.

Tip
Ferrelle
Shaft taper / Shaft
Joint type / Pin

As far as a full splice verses a short splice, IMO, makes little to no difference.

So while the OP wanted to discuss the importance of a ivory joint, I think, the ivory, micarta, LBM or whatever, ferrelle is MUCH more important.

Ken

JoseV
01-15-2014, 07:24 AM
I have SS Joint and Ivory I Myself can't tell the difference

cigardave
01-15-2014, 08:18 AM
This has been on AZ hundreds of times.

But to me importance of hit works from the tip back.

Tip
Ferrelle
Shaft taper / Shaft
Joint type / Pin

As far as a full splice verses a short splice, IMO, makes little to no difference.

So while the OP wanted to discuss the importance of a ivory joint, I think, the ivory, micarta, LBM or whatever, ferrelle is MUCH more important.

Ken
Great post, Ken. I agree.

My current custom (Dave Jones) player is currently configured with a..

G2 Medium tip,
old Micarta ferrule,
a Timeless Timber shaft (tapered to 12.4 mm),
a flat-faced ivory joint,
and with a brass radial pin.

It hits and plays beautifully.

lstevedus
01-15-2014, 09:22 AM
This has been on AZ hundreds of times.

But to me importance of hit works from the tip back.

Tip
Ferrelle
Shaft taper / Shaft
Joint type / Pin

As far as a full splice verses a short splice, IMO, makes little to no difference.

So while the OP wanted to discuss the importance of a ivory joint, I think, the ivory, micarta, LBM or whatever, ferrelle is MUCH more important.

Ken

I have to agree with Ken on this one. I will add that I have been having good luck with shafts that have juma ferules.

Menelaus10
01-15-2014, 10:29 AM
Each cue I have owned has had a slightly different feel, however, I've always felt that the Ivory joints, both flat faced & piloted felt similar. That is to say they have a slightly softer report than a steel joint. They also seem to me to have a similar feel as a wood to wood joint. Personally I liked the old brass joints, which no one seems to use anymore, but that's for another discusion.

If you have the means, try using the same shaft on both an Ivory joint, steel joint or even a wood joint to isolate the different feel the joint material produces.

Bavafongoul
01-15-2014, 03:22 PM
Ken_4Fun brought out something that I profess to have very little knowledge of....only cursory.......yes my naysayers did you read that.
I'm stating at the outset that I know very little about the benefit. i.e., difference, of playing with a pool cue that is a full splice pool cue.

I am familiar with what a full splice cue is but I do not understand why it has any advantage over a short splice cue. So after reading
Ken_4Fun's post, it caused me to ponder about how much of a different feel a full splice cue might exhibit and why it would and when
the cue isn't full splice, perhaps the cue joint becomes more important for the feel or maybe it's the other way around?

Anyway, the question of full splice cues is a topic for another thread and I'd like to learn and hear more about this subject. I betcha a
lot of folks do not understand or even agree on what a full splice cue does or why it plays/feels different but I'm admitting up front I
have little knowledge on this topic.

kvinbrwr
01-15-2014, 03:53 PM
This has been on AZ hundreds of times.

But to me importance of hit works from the tip back.

Tip
Ferrelle
Shaft taper / Shaft
Joint type / Pin

As far as a full splice verses a short splice, IMO, makes little to no difference.

So while the OP wanted to discuss the importance of a ivory joint, I think, the ivory, micarta, LBM or whatever, ferrelle is MUCH more important.

Ken

I'm with you Ken. "Hit" generates back from the ball, tip first then ferrule then either taper and shaft wood or shaft wood and taper. After that, joint, pin and splice and grip are all "feel", which is really transmitting feedback to your brain through your hand after the ball is struck. If the cue is "hitting" the ball the way you like, pocketing balls and moving the cue ball in a way that works for you, you will learn to like the "feel".

I guess I'm not in the "Billiard Industry" enough to understand the supposed superiority of Mottey's ivory joints. Paul for sure didn't develop them, and as precise as he was, he was no more precise in his work than a handful of guys that made piloted ivory joints. So the billiard industry must be talking (whispering in secret really) about some intangible quality.

Kevin

kvinbrwr
01-15-2014, 03:58 PM
scott
dan janes told me the story.
he may have said meucci did it and i forgot

Yeah Ernie says the same thing, although I insist I could tell the difference.

cubswin
01-15-2014, 04:09 PM
Personally I think the joint material means very little. I've owned about every type out there other than a lambros ultra joint.

Tip, ferrule, shaft taper, balance, wood type in the butt, are all more important to me. The joint is there to hold two pieces together tightly. Obviously the joint material can effect the balance of the cue, which to me is very important. The tip, ferrule, taper, and wood type all provide feedback to my hands more than any joint type I've ever had on a cue.

lenoxmjs
01-15-2014, 06:38 PM
Pretty much like Ken said . Front to back

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

CMD
01-15-2014, 06:56 PM
Pretty much like Ken said . Front to back

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Agreed.


What I find funny (peculiar) is how some people obsess over certain materials in cues. I have played and owned hundreds of all types. What matters most is how the individual plays with a cue. A pool cue is meant to pocket balls. Just like running a table, there are many ways to skin a cat. Find what works best for you and play with it. Stop being prejudice towards certain materials.

I am currently playing my very best pool. The cue happens to have a SS 1/2 joint.


Tip, taper and balance are what I consider to be important. Admittedly, I am not a fan of linen. It just doesn't allow my stroke to flow naturally.


Good topic but it's been beaten to death for years...

Badbeat13
01-15-2014, 08:22 PM
I am currently playing my very best pool. The cue happens to have a SS 1/2 joint.

You lucky dog, you should never miss a ball with that wand.

Very jealous, Jerry

prewarhero
01-15-2014, 08:31 PM
I have to agree with Ken on this one. I will add that I have been having good luck with shafts that have juma ferules.

See, and I really dislike Juma

Straightpool_99
01-15-2014, 09:53 PM
................

ToomnyQs
01-18-2014, 08:52 AM
I agree that the joint material has little bearing on the way a cue plays. I also agree that it is from the tip back.. Shaft is everything for me when I choose a cue as my player..

Cuemaster98
04-30-2014, 12:05 AM
Agreed Dan.....It's all comes down to the shafts wood...then tip, ferrule, no ferrule...insert..joint type...very little impact..etc. It's no surprise that all the great cue builders all have super high quality shaft wood...they all know how to select and treat them. Shaft wood is the cue builder life line....if they build a nice cue and put shitty shaft with their cue..they're shooting themselves in the foot.

Unfortunately...you have some young guns that built great looking cues but they don't either understand how to pick out good shaft wood or can't get them because the good builders buy them all up.

If you played with all of these high end cues like I did....you come to understand that great playing cues can be found with any type of joints and doesn't always have to be name brand cues that cost thousands --- funny enough...these great playing cues always come with great playing shaft wood. Everything else is personal preference and aesthetic.






I agree that the joint material has little bearing on the way a cue plays. I also agree that it is from the tip back.. Shaft is everything for me when I choose a cue as my player..

lfigueroa
04-30-2014, 05:35 AM
I'm not sure how important the joint is. I know for a fact that I can feel the difference between unilock joints and other metal joints. It's not of any importance to me, however, as long as the cue is well constructed. I currently use a custom cue with an unilock joint, while I don't like the unilock joint per se, the good qualities of the cue outweigh this fact.

For snooker I prefer 1 piece cues for the balance and the feel. Frankly, I find it weird that no one seems to prefer 1 piece cues made by custom makers for pool. It is a bit of an inconvenience to carry around, but many snooker players put up with it, so why don't pool players? When buying a snooker cue it is recommended by some to order a one-piece even if you want to have it jointed, since you are thereby guaranteed to get two sections made by the same piece of wood. You can always get the joint installed later, if you really want it. I'd love a pool cue made as a one piece made from old growth maple. That would be the ultimate in feel.


I think the joint affects the balance of the cue -- lighter or heavier material mid-cue -- but bot playability. The only other thing going on is aesthetics. I personally have always loved the look of an ivory jointed cue so that's what I play with.

As far as playability, like others have said, it's about the tip, the ferrule, and the shaft.

Lou Figueroa

batalarms
04-30-2014, 05:51 AM
Let's assume that the shaft,tip and ferrule all are top quality,and top playability,I prefer a big pin, flat faced ivory joint.That's just me of course.The hit will be a little "softer" than steel,but I will sacrifice a little stiffness for the look.I like ivory.
Marc

kvinbrwr
04-30-2014, 07:41 AM
I think the joint affects the balance of the cue -- lighter or heavier material mid-cue -- but bot playability. The only other thing going on is aesthetics. I personally have always loved the look of an ivory jointed cue so that's what I play with.

As far as playability, like others have said, it's about the tip, the ferrule, and the shaft.

Lou Figueroa

Lou

Yup. A steel piloted joint weighs (working from memory) .8 ounces more than a piloted ivory joint. So even in 2 cues weighing the same with different joints, all else being equal, the weight distribution will be different.

Now lets go ask Efren what he thinks about that .8 ounce while he's running rack after rack with a broom handle.

Kevin

hotrod
04-30-2014, 10:59 AM
Lou

Yup. A steel piloted joint weighs (working from memory) .8 ounces more than a piloted ivory joint. So even in 2 cues weighing the same with different joints, all else being equal, the weight distribution will be different.

Now lets go ask Efren what he thinks about that .8 ounce while he's running rack after rack with a broom handle.

Kevin

Obviously joint material changes a cues hit. Joint material most certainly changes a cues balance point. I personally think more credit needs giving to a cues overall constuction which includes the butt section. I agree tip, ferrule, taper are the indicator of a cues hit. But you can put a quality shaft on a so-so butt and not find that magical feeling of hit. I have an piloted ivory jointed Jerry R, a couple of Jeff Olneys and a couple of Jim Pierces. All 5 cues hit differently. The 2 Olneys hit different from each other and the 2 Pierce cues hit different from each other and obviously the R cue is different again. Different tips, different ferrules but the one thing constant all 5 hit real good. The biggest constant is overall quality constuction from the cue makers. If a cue has quality construction techniques, I can change tips and find what Im looking for. If you have so-so overall quality constuction for the total pckg you will not find enough tips to change for a real quality hit and feel performance. By the way on Efrens broom, was that steel joint or ivory ? one persons opinion only, have a good one

Bavafongoul
04-30-2014, 06:28 PM
I learned after speaking with my cue-maker that the joint, pin and actual shape of the shaft originating from the joint to the tip have a lot to do with the feel of the cue.
I spoke with Bob after getting a '07 Shurtz cue a week ago and I had him change the joint from piloted steel to a flat faced ivory joint with 3/8x11 brass pin.

So after laying the '07 Owen cue side by side with my other cues and comparing it physically and also playability with my Scruggs cue which is also a flat faced ivory
joint and my Mottey cue with piloted ivory joint, I called Bob since my custom won't be finished until next month and I might want to teak the shaft specs a little.

We discussed why Bob makes his cue shafts physically different than other cues by extension of the bell shape approximately 2.5" - 3" from the collar. He also makes
the cue joint oversized and uses a big pin in his flat ivory cue joints. I has a tangible effect on the feel of the cue's hit and so I actually modified the original specifications
that I originally provided Bob for the three shafts he's making for my custom cue.

So there are other more subtle factors that work hand in hand with the cue joint but a flat ivory cue joint just feels different to me than a piloted steel joint. I wouldn't have
switched to buying only ivory cue joints if I couldn't discern the difference......my 4th one arrives next month. I'm telling you there is a different feel but you might not like it.

Matt B.

leto1776
04-30-2014, 06:41 PM
I recently bought a piloted ivory joint joss cue from the 70s. Aside from the balance point, feels the same as my two steel jointed Joss cues from the same era.

Bavafongoul
04-30-2014, 09:20 PM
And I can understand why too. It's because of the metal insert in the shaft face which essentially render the joint connection practically speaking similar to a piloted steel version.
The basic difference becomes the surrounding collar and obviously one would be made of ivory and the other would be steel, albeit different materials.

This is going to sound braggadocio on my part but I only bought my Mottey cue because of Paul reputation for making one of the best piloted ivory joints and I'm not just saying'
that cuz I own one. But essentially I figured it would be 2nd to a flat ivory joint and I've got two now and that's been my experience even with a Paul Mottey piloted ivory cue joint.

So understandably from my experience, it stands to reason you probably wouldn't notice much of a difference, if any, comparing two piloted joints to each other since the shaft's core
connection is the same, i.e., metal to metal. However, with a flat faced ivory joint, the shaft face connection is all wood and the pin threads directly within the middle of the shaft. Hence,
there isn't any metal to metal connection in the cue's assembly which is a big factor in the sensation or feel. Even my Mottey has to take a back seat to my Scruggs and Owen cues.

Next month my new custom arrives and I'm betting dollars to doughnuts that it will have even better feel than this last Owen cue since the specs should be dialed in really tight. And I'm
keeping my mouth shut on how it looks........I don't want to jinx this cue because I've waited too long. Let's just say I have very high hopes......and my point was this cue also has a flat ivory joint.........there's a difference in feel for some of us and for others a cue with an ivory joint doesn't feel any different.

It's in all likelihood due to everyone having different olfactory senses and distinct tactile senses. Each of us has a system that works uniquely for that person, albeit similar to what everyone
else's systems do. Nonetheless, each of us feels and experiences things & sensations differently and perhaps that's why there's varying and contradictory opinions being expressed. I dunno
why but from my experience, it confirms that there is a difference in feel between an ivory cue joint and a steel cue joint.....to each their own.

Matt B.

poolguppy
04-30-2014, 09:49 PM
I did a test with my flat faced ivory joint with 3/8 10 pin, put a thick cardboard washer in between the joint and taped it, a friend if mine and I shooting around with it taped up not knowing if we were shooting with the ivory/ivory or cardboard washer in between could not tell a difference in feel or sound. Ivory joints are just pretty, and that's the only reason I wanted one

skins
04-30-2014, 11:49 PM
From tip to bumper, the choice of every part of the cue determines how it plays. Different combinations may be similar but they all have they're own unique characteristics. Building a GREAT playing/feeling cue does not happen by chance.....

leto1776
05-01-2014, 12:25 AM
And I can understand why too. It's because of the metal insert in the shaft face which essentially render the joint connection practically speaking similar to a piloted steel version.
The basic difference becomes the surrounding collar and obviously one would be made of ivory and the other would be steel, albeit different materials.

This is going to sound braggadocio on my part but I only bought my Mottey cue because of Paul reputation for making one of the best piloted ivory joints and I'm not just saying'
that cuz I own one. But essentially I figured it would be 2nd to a flat ivory joint and I've got two now and that's been my experience even with a Paul Mottey piloted ivory cue joint.

So understandably from my experience, it stands to reason you probably wouldn't notice much of a difference, if any, comparing two piloted joints to each other since the shaft's core
connection is the same, i.e., metal to metal. However, with a flat faced ivory joint, the shaft face connection is all wood and the pin threads directly within the middle of the shaft. Hence,
there isn't any metal to metal connection in the cue's assembly which is a big factor in the sensation or feel. Even my Mottey has to take a back seat to my Scruggs and Owen cues.

Next month my new custom arrives and I'm betting dollars to doughnuts that it will have even better feel than this last Owen cue since the specs should be dialed in really tight. And I'm
keeping my mouth shut on how it looks........I don't want to jinx this cue because I've waited too long. Let's just say I have very high hopes......and my point was this cue also has a flat ivory joint.........there's a difference in feel for some of us and for others a cue with an ivory joint doesn't feel any different.

It's in all likelihood due to everyone having different olfactory senses and distinct tactile senses. Each of us has a system that works uniquely for that person, albeit similar to what everyone
else's systems do. Nonetheless, each of us feels and experiences things & sensations differently and perhaps that's why there's varying and contradictory opinions being expressed. I dunno
why but from my experience, it confirms that there is a difference in feel between an ivory cue joint and a steel cue joint.....to each their own.

Matt B.

1. You overthink things way too much.
2. What it the flat faced shaft has an insert?

bbb
05-01-2014, 04:20 AM
there is a saying that goes somelthing like
if you beleive it its true
if you beleive you can tell what kind of joint is on a cue by feel
enjoy your dream world.........:grin-square:
..
..
because its not possible.....:eek:

lfigueroa
05-01-2014, 05:13 AM
Lou

Yup. A steel piloted joint weighs (working from memory) .8 ounces more than a piloted ivory joint. So even in 2 cues weighing the same with different joints, all else being equal, the weight distribution will be different.

Now lets go ask Efren what he thinks about that .8 ounce while he's running rack after rack with a broom handle.

Kevin


Kevin., I think the cue matters more to some guys than others. Efren can beat us all with a broom handle. And then there have been stories of guys pulling a house stick off the wall and playing lights out.

On the flip side, there are guys that can't or won't do that. I seem to recall a story about snooker great Steve Davis leaving his one-piece cue in a London cab and offered a huge reward to get it back.

I sometimes wonder about players that play great and then at a later time in life, not so great, whether it's because they've changed cues. Like I said, the cue matters more to some guys than others. But maybe some of those guys don't know it matters to them.

Lou Figueroa

lfigueroa
05-01-2014, 05:17 AM
I learned after speaking with my cue-maker that the joint, pin and actual shape of the shaft originating from the joint to the tip have a lot to do with the feel of the cue.
I spoke with Bob after getting a '07 Shurtz cue a week ago and I had him change the joint from piloted steel to a flat faced ivory joint with 3/8x11 brass pin.

So after laying the '07 Owen cue side by side with my other cues and comparing it physically and also playability with my Scruggs cue which is also a flat faced ivory
joint and my Mottey cue with piloted ivory joint, I called Bob since my custom won't be finished until next month and I might want to teak the shaft specs a little.

We discussed why Bob makes his cue shafts physically different than other cues by extension of the bell shape approximately 2.5" - 3" from the collar. He also makes
the cue joint oversized and uses a big pin in his flat ivory cue joints. I has a tangible effect on the feel of the cue's hit and so I actually modified the original specifications
that I originally provided Bob for the three shafts he's making for my custom cue.

So there are other more subtle factors that work hand in hand with the cue joint but a flat ivory cue joint just feels different to me than a piloted steel joint. I wouldn't have
switched to buying only ivory cue joints if I couldn't discern the difference......my 4th one arrives next month. I'm telling you there is a different feel but you might not like it.

Matt B.


I believe that when you are talking about "the feel" of a cue a big part of that is the sound you hear and the vibration transmitted to your grip hand. Some cues sound prettier than others. Some cues feel deader than others. As you say, all that is personal preference.

Lou Figueroa

Worminator
05-01-2014, 05:23 AM
The most significant differences in the "feel" of a cue is personal perception and preference.

JoseV
05-01-2014, 06:14 AM
Larry...I don't recall Dan Janes doing this, but Bob Meucci sure did. He had most of the top pros using his cues, and he did the test with 8-10 of them. As you mentioned, none of them could tell a difference.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Scott Lee is right, i myself have ivory. I think this test should be done again.

CMD
05-02-2014, 06:22 AM
I saw this thread the other day and re-read the replies. My first reply was not in much detail or too much thought given. I decided to play with a bunch of my cues and now give a better opinion of this subject.


#1 - Is there going to be a noticeable difference from joint to joint when the materials are near the same in
hardness, and weight? My observation is "no".

#2 - Does, or can a joint effect how a cue plays? My observation is "absolutely".

#3 - If different cues with different joints were put together, and the joints covered so people could hit balls to see if they could tell which joint they were hitting with, and assuming the cues were all properly balanced, I don't think you could do much more than guess what it is.

#4 - When there is a significant weight difference it absolutely will effect the play of the cue.

#5 - For some to say an ivory over stainless is just for show, or snob appeal, and to say there is going to be no difference in play when comparing a standard ivory joint to ivory/stainless is just plain ignorance. The same for the half stainless joint compared to the full stainless. The same when comparing stainless to any other non metal, or lighter joint. It's also ignorance to say the butt itself doesn't effect how a cue plays. It may be a minor difference in most cases, but it does. While exaggerated, would the same shaft play different if one butt was made from rubber, and the other made from steel even
if both were the same weight? Of course.


Just some random thoughts...

Chris

Sealegs50
05-02-2014, 07:09 AM
I saw this thread the other day and re-read the replies. My first reply was not in much detail or too much thought given. I decided to play with a bunch of my cues and now give a better opinion of this subject.


#1 - Is there going to be a noticeable difference from joint to joint when the materials are near the same in
hardness, and weight? My observation is "no".

#2 - Does, or can a joint effect how a cue plays? My observation is "absolutely".

#3 - If different cues with different joints were put together, and the joints covered so people could hit balls to see if they could tell which joint they were hitting with, and assuming the cues were all properly balanced, I don't think you could do much more than guess what it is.

#4 - When there is a significant weight difference it absolutely will effect the play of the cue.

#5 - For some to say an ivory over stainless is just for show, or snob appeal, and to say there is going to be no difference in play when comparing a standard ivory joint to ivory/stainless is just plain ignorance. The same for the half stainless joint compared to the full stainless. The same when comparing stainless to any other non metal, or lighter joint. It's also ignorance to say the butt itself doesn't effect how a cue plays. It may be a minor difference in most cases, but it does. While exaggerated, would the same shaft play different if one butt was made from rubber, and the other made from steel even
if both were the same weight? Of course.


Just some random thoughts...

Chris

A while back, Murray Tucker posted an article summarizing the results of the McChesney blind experiment from 1991. The link to his post is provided. I am not a statistician, so someone please correct me if I am wrong. But if I am correct, I believe these results are just below random guessing, but probably not significantly so.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=3286694&postcount=18

I agree that different cues play differently. I also agree that the butt affects feel and play, even if it is to a lesser extent than the tip, ferrule, and shaft. There are too many factors that affect feel (particularly balance) that I don't see how to assign a specific characteristic to the joint.

Bavafongoul
05-02-2014, 10:43 AM
I think that when people try someone's else cue from a different cue-maker, and they like the way the cue plays......maybe even think it's the best playing cue they ever tried.......they misjudge the experience.

What I mean is they credit the cue-maker entirely with why the cue feels so better but don't even know how to figure out why. The first question I always ask is what type of tip is on the cue and its hardness? Is the tip is different than what I use? Is it a dime shape or nickel which I use or is it even more flat? Then I ask about the shaft weigh because that's a factor in why the cue feels better? Then I examine the taper of the shaft and of course whether the ferrules were 1" ivory which is on all my other cues. I figure out whether the cue-maker made the shafts differently than what I'm accustomed to playing with. Then I proceed to examine the cue's overall construction.....example, was it a short spliced cue......weight of the cue butt, balance, etc.

Heck, there are a dozen factors that affect how the cue feels in one's hands......and the cue joint is one of the more important considerations just like the cue tips are.......you need to figure out why a cue feels better and if you understand the anatomy of cue-making, it's not that difficult to do. But the cue joint is very important to the hit and feel of the cue and if anyone thinks otherwise, they are right.

You see this topic perfectly illustrates what Henry Ford once said....."Whenever any man believes he will succeed or he thinks he will fail, he is right on both points." Well, whenever any pool player tells you they can't feel the difference with a cue joint, especially a flat ivory cue joint, or that they can feel the difference, the pool player is right on both counts........just like Henry Ford uttered.

Matt B.

skins
06-30-2014, 07:36 AM
"..... It's also ignorance to say the butt itself doesn't effect how a cue plays....."

Absolutely... It's like saying the only reason my guitar plays so well is because of the neck... Of course it could be that the player has a little to do with it... Uh oh..May have just opened up another can o worms...lol